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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. I'm Scott Galway. What have you been up to, Scott? I am in Munich. Why are you in Munich? This is what the staff wants to know. My friend Steve Sarasino has a fund called Activant, which is a venture capital firm, and I like Steve a lot and he asked me to come speak it as annual meeting. So I'm here and I'm right, I'm on the way to Haasen plots, something plots. Everything is plots.
And I'm looking at, I'm looking outside and this puts me to good mood. There's both Ukrainian and an Israeli flag. And I think the flag of a local football team. I just think they get it here. I just think they get it. Well, there is a vast right wing movement happening there, though they didn't quite make it this year. They didn't quite make it into power.
People seriously, people don't realize I love, I'm interested in German history. If you were to try and pick a country that had been the most liberal, most welcoming of immigrants appreciative of our respect for the science is academia free speech, a thriving gay community. In the last 200 years, if you were to rank all our societies, I think distinctive this 11 year descent into horror, there was the Holocaust. Probably number one on the whole it would be Germany.
Other than this 11 year descent into darkness. It's interesting this week I went to an interesting screening of from Russia with Lev, it's about Lev Parnas. And a lot of the stuff that they that Russia is trying to do is very similar to what Nazi Germany tried to do.
And it's really interesting the attempts to bring down liberal democracies, how enduring they are as enduring as liberal democracies are. It's just it had so many echoes of that to me, you know, the whole high jinks to to to to to overturn democracy by autocrats. But with the best part was at the very end of the of the movie this Lev Parnas, who was up and up with the Donald Trump China sort of create chaos in Ukraine with Rudy Giuliani, you remember, he went to jail for another different thing.
But he has shifted the way a lot of these Republicans have shifted these sort of Trump people like a like a George Conway or an anti scare moochie or any number of a list of fair any number of people. And he the end of the movie was produced by Rachel Maddow and others.
And it was he ended up meeting with Hunter Biden apologizing to really yeah it was very is that he is trying to stay out of jail or you know he's always thought to jail for something else. No, he's just has there's a lot of those people who have shifted it now like a Michael Cohen, you know, who are really up with the in the grill of
the good, you know, in a very, you know, Slavish way to Donald Trump who have shifted and are now sort of the opposite very intense on stop. There's there's definitely a I don't know if they study this, but I find there's a number of individuals Trump. I think musk has adopted this and that is the first thing you do in your guilty of something is accuse everyone else of it. And then the far right who screams censorship all the time basically dominates in terms of news pieces.
Podcasting, I mean, if someone says if someone screams are being censored, it means they won't shut the fuck up and they're literally everywhere. Yeah. And then you know, it's just it is sexy autocrats playbook. The moment people start to sense you're up to bullshit, accuse everyone else of the same thing. They do. Yeah. Yeah. It's an expression. I've used a lot like the every accusation is a confession anyway. I like that. Yeah. You can use it borrow it.
It's a tribute to Kara Swisher. In any case, you won't, but that's okay. I give tribute all the time. I give tribute. I give tribute cohost Kara Swisher. I give tribute. Give me tribute. I'm going in New York tonight to interview Bill Gates about his documentary for Netflix. We're doing that that Paris the way you had to pick up checks at work. No, we're going to stay out of that topic. It's about the future. You never
boy that whole thing. I'm going to avoid it if you don't mind. What floor are you going to have you heard? No, what are you doing later? I mean, interviewing about his thing of the future will be interesting. I'm going to go up to New York to come right back. Ask him about nuclear. I think he's been a fantastic voice on nuclear. I go to that is that is one of the topics on this show on Netflix.
It's about things going forward. He's interviewed all kinds of including his own daughter who likes strafes him about his email usage. Anyway, I now feel bad because a lot of people do different things with their money. This guy is trying to figure out a way to, you know, cure malaria. We could do a lot. We have done a lot worse with wealthy men than Bill Gates. We are doing a lot worse. He is a complex figure.
He gets attacked online for his vaccine stuff. He's like the new George Soros in a lot of ways for the right wing. There's conspiracy. There is everywhere. But I think he's actually a fairly simple guy. He's really fucking smart. He got really fucking rich. And he's really fucking horny. I didn't know probably all of a sudden woke up and it's like I'm the sexiest man in the world.
And I've never enjoyed or experienced this. Anyways, also his wife, Linda Gates, his ex wife is also doing a lot of amazing things. Big backer, but come a little bit. She's very impressive. Anyway, all right. Now that we've covered that, I'll know what not to ask. I don't really care about his person. We've got a lot to get to today. Come layers and Donald Trump laying out dueling visions of the economy, including a great interview by our friend Stephanie rules.
She was very touched that we mentioned our last episode. We're going to mention her this episode. She did rising star or star that's even rising more. Yeah, I thought he liked Bimbo's. I love that line she had because Donald Trump called her a Bimbo. I mean, dumb dumb dumb dumb is a rock Bimbo whatever whatever. Anyway, she had a great rejoinder to him this week in when she and then moved on to interviewing Kamala Harris in a very sharp interview.
What did you think of that interview? I didn't see it. We're going to talk about it. I did see it. Open AI is moving closer to a for profit company following more high profile departures with the biggest one, Miramarati, who I've interviewed several times. But first met his annual connect conference brought lots of wearable news and it wasn't just the sweatshirt that Mark Zuckerberg chose to wear on stage display the Latin phrase meaning all I think it meant all suck or nothing.
A play ought Caesar ought to heal. I mean, it was so strange. His his style journey is really interesting to me, but that aside, we shouldn't talk about his clothes, but he really he know you know what we should because he decided to wear it because he knew it would get attention. Just like Melania wore the I don't care to you jacket, which was bone headed. This was just kind of silly.
But he's got a new style. Anyway, the company announced a lower cost model of its quest three virtual reality headset, a prototype for Orion augmented reality glasses, a new llama model with the ability to process visuals celebrity chat bots with AI voices of stars like Kristen Bell and John Cena and a new feed feature.
Called Imagine for you with AI generated content based on your interest of current trends. They also made a new limited edition cool set of their meta ray bands, which are transparent. I just bought a pair myself. There was a lot of people were there said it was a very good event. I have to say it was very lively compared to the apple event a week two weeks ago.
Metta is behind competitors and releasing AI models, as I said, the process visuals, but easier he's doing that. What what thinks you of what they announced was a lot of glasses. I was thinking of you the whole time. Well, I think the most important thing about this event was his clearly his fashion and that is I think he told the stylist. I'm going to look like a cross between Brad Pitt and fight club and Tom Jones when he hits 60.
There's just like a 60s compelling yet creepy mostly the latter vibe to the look. I can't tell whether I like it or not. Do you like it? You know what? I like I like people who live out loud with their fashion and the physical appearance. I like I think it's that's why I like when high school kids dress really funky. I just think it's kind of cool to explore.
I mean, let's be honest. He's he's a 17 year old, right? And he is even though he's not. So anyways, I like the fashion, but in terms of the event itself, they I think Mark Zuckerberg is on a mission to no longer be subject to the whims or subject to
the end distribution. And I think he just decided, I don't know, five or seven years ago, I have to establish control distribution. And this is typically when a brand gets above a certain market cap, it has to establish direct consumer channels to control the brand or their subject to the whims of their distributors.
Their phone was the disaster portal portal. Oh, remember the portal. Oh my god, I forgot. I mean, but he is Zuck's commitment to trying to or his crusade to establish vertical distribution through hardware means he is willing and is access to cheap capital all adds up to I am willing to go so hard at this that I can offer 80%. Let me back up.
When my first consulting assignments was I did a bunch of research for the gap in this second 1992 my second year in business clothes trying to start a strategy firm. And I called Don Fisher who was a Cal alum and I said I'm trying to start a strategy firm. And he said, okay, and I met with the head of strategy, this guy named Mark Bucko, who's now a minister like he just a lovely guy. And I said, just give me any question and I'm going to try and go answer it.
And he said, what should we do with the gap brand? Are there opportunities for brand extensions? Oh, it's a big question. And I came back and I said, all right, demographics are destiny. The underserved market and casual peril is single mothers. And that is single mothers are especially cognizant of their daughter or their son self esteem at school because they generally have less money. They're very worried about their kids post divorce, but the thing is they don't have very much money.
So I said, what if we did essentially 80% of gap for 50% of the price and it was getting a great and Mickey Drexler loved it launched an entire sub-round called gaps old Navy. Then it become and then it became old Navy. So you are responsible for old Navy? I can't take credit for it. I just kind of confirmed the market a single mothers for it. I think it was Mickey Drexler's vision.
And then it was and then it was old Navy on its own. An old Navy is now much bigger than gap and old Navy was the biggest or the fastest zero to a billion retailer in history and a really decent business strategy. While everyone tries to up each other in terms of a better product and they incrementally go higher price based on power. 80% of the premier offering for 50% or of the price is an amazing.
Those are the brands that grow fast as zero to a billion, whether it's Southwest Airlines doing that to American Delta United. That is a fantastic business strategy. What these guys have done or the Zuck is done is he's taken the mixed reality headset and said I'll give you 80% of the product from Apple for 10% of the price. Right. For these, these are the Rayban medical glasses. Correct. The Ryan, the Ryan is, it looks a lot like the stamp chat one.
And he will, I do think there's a market here, but at some point they will have the micro cameras and the processing technology to have a seamless experience on glasses. And I have to admit my son uses those, I feel like all the meta glasses. The Rayvans on, he used them skiing and I just kept looking at him. He was like, take a photo on him. What he was talking to his glasses and he really liked it now. He doesn't use them a lot, but he did use them.
Right. So I'm getting a pair of Presumers ones. They're Rayvans, which is of course my brand. And I think it's interesting. The easy ones are the one they're surprised by the popularity of them. Let's just be clear. Snapchat's the one that really pioneered this stuff. Well, Google had Google Glass, but that didn't really work out.
Someone at some point, I know your auntie put on your face stuff, but at some point this is the heads up displays the way it's going. I was really interested in what Snapchat, meta and Apple are just continuing through with it. They're just they've decided this is the next computing paradigm. And I just got the new iPhone yesterday, very not easy to set up, but Apple, you know, it's still a really great experience in the store.
Um, um, Shay, by the way, thank you for helping me. Um, what's really interesting about is as I was sitting there as we were putting the new iPhone together and transferring everything, which is such a nightmare still in Apple's the easiest version of it.
Um, I thought there's got to be a new phone paradigm. Finally, like it everything they fixed on the new iPhone. And I like a lot of the features around the camera and some of the new stuff. They've sort of made marginal improvements in all the ways you do things on the phone. They made it easier, better looking, et cetera. There has to this paradigm is almost over. I kept thinking as I was looking at the app paradigm is almost over.
And what do you think it's going to be the next paradigm is just voice or AI heads up display voice voice with the heads up display in some way that's spatial computing. I guess. I, you know, I don't know. I just felt like this is the last few of these because I think will they're very they work really well.
Like a book does a book still works well, but I just feel like they have not changed this paradigm. Well, there's nowhere else to go with this phone, right? And the Apple is the best way. Anyway, I don't know if you've gotten the new one, but you try it out. Let me know what you think. But, but I think of our I think of the phone. As essentially the most elegant supercomputer ever invented and that it'll ultimately power adjacent products. What do I mean by that?
Your watch isn't awareable to second screen for your phone. And if you think about what you're talking about spatial computing or real interesting applications of AI. What do you need? You need a supercomputer? You need a wearable and you need really elegant software. And to me, this is all adds up to Apple.
Yeah, it does. It does. I just feel like it feels like there needs to be a breakthrough. I don't know what it is. I'm glad they're making investments or anyway, we've got to move on. But it's a cool time. It's cool. I'm excited. I'll be wearing them. And I'm going to show them to you. I think I'm going to see you soon. And speaking of Mark Zuckerberg, the meta CEO is done with politics according to a story in the United Times. But I'm sorry, Mark politics is not done with you.
For the past few years, Zuckerberg has reportedly expressed cynicism about politics saying both parties low technology. Once again, he's over being overly dramatic. He has pulled back from some of his philanthropic efforts to avoid low back. Whoever Zuckerberg has spoken to former president Trump at least once or twice over the summer.
I'm not sure if he's spoken to Kamala Harris. You know, it's interesting. He's just had it with politics. But of course he is one of the biggest lobbying organizations. And I have to like the lobbyist here for Facebook for meta.
I don't know if we're seeing him go down an Elon path, but it's the same victimization thing that he's always carried around like nobody likes him and they know it's so it's so reductive. They don't know technology. Mark, they they have problems with some of the stuff. And he never takes responsibility for his stuff.
So I was a little disappointed in this article. Like there's nothing wrong with Mark Zuckerberg that couldn't be fixed with him having any sort of empathy or any sort of realization about the incredible harm he's done to youth. The ability to weaponize his platforms and not only weaponize elections, but create conspiracy theory that often ends up in serious injury or death.
And also really the fact that he has made our discourse globally in terms of the competitive advantage of our species, which is communication cooperation. He's made that much worse and turned arguably a feature into a bug other than sort of fucking our species young people and democracy. We've really got no reason to complain about Mark Zuckerberg. So Zuck. But you go Tom Jones. You deserve it. My man. You deserve it.
I really don't like this victimization technology that technology people have. They really do have it. There's a great essay speaking of Facebook by Chris Hughes, one of the co founders and he's trying to explain he's he's quite progressive and stayed progressive.
He talks about why they're doing this and it does all center around victimization in a lot of ways and feeling like they're the brilliant people and we don't appreciate them. And you know, he of course he isn't unique inside and is also sympathetic to his founders and everything else. But I think that the I have to say is being a Bill Gates, he's changed her other drastically. He used to have this problem.
I think he has a lot less. Maybe he's older. Maybe you know, he has adult children. I don't stop it, dad. But I got to say Gates used to be like this much more than he was. Tim Cook is never like this. He never gets angry about government when they're, you know, he never like he's an adult. And at some point, Mark, you have to stop feeling a victim.
You've done some astonishing things, but we can criticize you and express our own cynicism towards you. And it's just it's a strange it's a strange quality that he represents more than others and Elon has taken to ridiculous extremes.
And I think that's what I think is victimization is we hate you. It's not it's I don't know anyway. I think you're correct in a lot of ways, but I I don't think Trump should threaten to jail him. That's like terrifying the these threats to jail Mars, Zuckerberg and everything else.
He has a problem. He should pass laws and sue him in court, but that's very different than we'll put him in prison, which is really right. I think there's definitely room for more more CEOs to say we're for profit entity. We're here to try and leverage your skills and build a platform and create economic security for you and your family. We're going to be good citizens. We're going to be thoughtful.
We're going to we're going to ensure based on laws and just what it means to be a good person to not discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation, their race, their ethnicity, their age. But for the most part folks, I'm not here to tell you my politics. I'm not here to position the company as being left or right because that comes with a certain amount of pressure for employees up and down the food chain to please the people that have impact over their well-being.
I just think there needs to be more companies who are who are forced to put out an Instagram post on what they feel about whatever it is, Israel or Gaza or Black Lives Matter to say, you know what? We're good citizens. We comply with the law, but we're here to make money. And you we respect everyone's rights to do whatever they want off hours free speech, you know, March for the dolphins, whatever it is.
But we are in the business of shareholder value. And when the problem knows with the company like meta they're involved in the social problems. Well media media is you are where you spend your time. And when more people are spending more time on meta than any organization media company. Metas platforms are the most successful thing in history. Three billion people are on these things every day. They're a billion.
Communism is in as big because the Kardashians isn't as big. Capitalism is this is the biggest, most successful thing in history. And he has the ability to sway so much public opinion that the responsibility of trying to do it in a thoughtful way and air on the side of being less course and make sure that you're creating a safe place for kids.
The thing that strikes me and I've switched a little bit over the last six months based on some of the conversations I've had with people who run nonprofits. A woman named my name is Sarah Gardner trying to protect children online. Is I do think Tim Cook doesn't especially good job of managing his brand. And the reality is is I think about it. Tim Cook and this is going to sound harsh is just a very elegant drug dealer outside of junior high school. Oh wow.
And he and it's going to sound okay too much. Yeah, it's a so. And he and Mark Zuckerberg and Mark is sort of his supplier or his front end. But basically during your most where your brain is formed during puberty. These folks are getting kids addicted to massive dope of hits. They're not going to be able to do it with us later in the but Apple has the power to just shut this shit down for people under the age of 16.
And so does meta for most of the applications these kids use and they choose not to. Yeah, they're they have a great responsibility. They really do. And I think they just feel like they just like they're making chickens and it's not the same thing. Anyway, I'm going to push back on the drug do I think but I see your point. I get you. So I see you're right. Senders also pass now to smack. Sender as well. I shouldn't have left him out. Okay, all right. And the people who make Doritos anyway.
Okay, let's get to our first big story on that note. Open AI is reportedly working on a plan to restructure the company into a for profit benefit corporation. What a surprise. I'm shocked. Me too. No long control by the nonprofit board. The news broke shortly after CTO Miramarati announced she was leaving the company open AI's chief research officer. And vice president research are also departing. One of them is very close to her.
I know that one interesting new detail about the restructuring plan. Sam Altman might be getting a 7% equity stake. He didn't have one, which is interesting. I didn't make sense total. We talked a lot about this over the last few months. And you know, even when I saw Mir the last time I said, you know, it's all about the money going when I started to see these eye popping. An THR corporation has done the business trade. That's wonderful. And so many ways of it. There are huge challenges.
Confessions, these professors who tookmarket evaluation. It's it it's there and then. And they might run over your financial schoolUniversaries from this to the management of the business. It's- The management campaign and that's the going? a cap on profits like previous investors, Sam obviously is getting at stake. The valuation is allegedly around $150 billion and everyone's, you know, belling up to the bar for this one. Then, but then there's the departures or is it a cleaning of the house?
This is a mirror is a very high profile woman in tech and someone who's really been running the company. He posted on X, I think he was trying to front run this leadership changes or a natural part of companies. Obviously, we won't pretend it's natural for this one to be so abrupt, but we are not a normal company, which is true. I think he's very clever at front ending things. You know, he's had a lot. He's everyone's the original.
I was trying to think last night if there was a company in tech that's had this many early people leave. And I was thinking AOL a little bit from the early days when Bob Pittman came in. I could Google the same people were there and same thing with Microsoft, same thing. I mean, maybe one or two people, the same thing with Facebook. Maybe there were some, there were people there at the beginning, but a lot of people stayed. A lot of key people stayed.
So I can't think of a company except maybe AOL way back when they needed, you know, real, you know, he's brought in Kevin Wheele and more professional executives. You know, I got to tell you, I'm not sure what I haven't done in reporting. So I don't know what's actually going on. But what do you think? What's your take? First of all, Sam Alman is the business leader of this generation.
And I think with this all come sound, I'd one, I appreciate that they're just sort of coming out of the closet and saying, we're a for-profit company. We always have been, let's stop, let's stop the nonsense. If you stabbed the prince, you better kill him. And all of these people, at least some of them were involved in the coup, fired him.
And then he came back and my guest is he said, okay, I'm going to stabilize everything and get everything into the moment, everything stabilized and it looks like we're going to raise money at an enormous valuation. These people are on the green mile ever since he came back. You don't, you don't try and pull a cool, if you want to kill Erdogan, if you want a coup against Erdogan, you better make sure he's dead. Because if he survives the coup, you're going to be executed.
And the notion that these folks weren't dead the moment he was reinstated to CEO is just laughable. Well, a lot of the employees backed him and Mira did switch, you know, she switched. You mean after he came back? No, no, no. She was part of him also coming back too. She had like several of them. Apparently she went and complained about him.
But then she thought they used her complaints to try to kill him, which she didn't, she was just complaining about some of his ways, which he's very aggressive. But he's been touting, they've been making her the face of the company for the past year or so. I think it's natural when you go through something like this that anyone was, that was involved friendly or not, I thought they were doing the right thing for the company by creating this sort of chaos and not killing him.
And he gets to come back. You're dead. You're dead. No matter how sorry you are and you changed your mind or you didn't have a role in, he's going to clean house. And he has the capital and the equity to go and get incredibly talented people. I don't, I don't think this is a threat to the company. I think these are very smart people. I like it in the sense that my guess is these folks will go start competitors that will be sub-scale and get squashed.
Yeah, they have several of them have as you know. You know, it's interesting because a lot of the people who are there at the beginning were indeed true believers in the safety thing, right? In the, in the, in the, in the non-profit version of it. And they really were. Like when you talk to those people, they really have, it's a belief system with them. And it's, and I'm, I remember talking to me at one point and I was like, you know, the money's going to run everyone over. You get that.
And she's like, no, we're here for this and good. And you know, very great, a good technologist. But I was like, well, I don't care. The money is too big. I was like, do you see how big that money is going to get bigger? It's, there's no way these, these capitalists, these very greedy capitalists aren't going to run everybody down. They're just, I don't, the money will win over everything. And I think that's really, you know, what's happened here. I'm trying to pull up this data.
But basically, when you're talking about, um, Chachibitira Open AI, I mean, just, they are literally running away with it. And I, I, I hope there's other folks, but basically, the monthly, the monthly site visits to Chachibitina have, are about the same and will blow by Amazon. They get 2.9 billion visits per month, Gemini, you know, Alphabet's offering and alphabet. With all its advantages. That kind of probably arguably has more IP around this and sort of invented it, is at 342 million.
I mean, it's, it's an eighth of it. And then the LLMI use, Cloud for Manthropic, has 65 million. It's 140th of the site. And then Mistral, and if you really look at the valuation... Why do you use Cloud over, I'm just curious. I like it for writing. I find, I generally, so people are in the illusion that, okay, so I like to write. I think, oh great, I'll write my next book on masculinity using Chachibitina and Cloud. And I will just get paid. No, that doesn't work.
It's, it's back a chapter that is so anodine and sterile and devoid of any, it's all Chipnosols, right? But it's a fantastic thought partner. It's true. It's true, it's just like, well, I could really use something on this. It's like, you know, it's just like, I don't know. You got some good ones today Scott. Go ahead. Or I don't know, it's like, I don't know, jerking off to Primetime TV. It's just not really going to get you there. Oh, he's keeping going.
Okay. Yeah. No, I don't think I got that one. Anyways, it's very anodine. That's, I stole that word from you. But it's an amazing thought partner. And I find also what I use it for every week, my problem with my newsletter, No Mercy in a Malice, is I know it needs to be 1500 words. I don't pay attention for longer than 1500 or 2000 words. I always end up somewhere between 2200 and 2500. And what I found their grade at is editing and reducing.
I say, all right, take this from 2200 to 1800 words, punch it up and where there's key points, where would I insert data. And then I'll go back and say, where did you cut and why? It's like, it's just having a great thought partner. Right. And what I have found is around editing and looking at written the written word, I like Claude's approach more. And when I say in the Voice of Sky Galway, it does more than just adding dick jokes.
It adds in data, where it's chat GPT just comes up with a dad joke. Oh, I see. Interesting. So for me, Claude, but most people say, So your data and dad jokes. There you go. Most people say though, most people on my team say, they use both, but they tend to defer to chat GPT. And the new one is supposed to be amazing. The new one. And it's such a, I love the marketing and gimmick where it takes longer to pretend it's thinking. That is such a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like that.
It's like the car on Uber. Like there's no car. So interesting. One of the things that, you know, I think I just think people are going to use these as they, I just interviewed Mustafa Suleiman, who's running Microsoft AI, which is they're, they just announced a whole bunch of co-pilot things. It sound, I'm really excited to try. Like, the interesting thing, which ones work and which ones don't.
And when you use the idea, when you just said that it's, it's basically it's a good copy editor for you, for your use case. And one of the things I used to say, certain editors I had that weren't very good at different places I worked, I used to say you have the soul of a copy editor. And I wasn't meaning it to be insulting, but I was like, you're just a copy. Like, and I don't mean, I value copy editors, but it was a very valuable thing, but they thought they were more and they weren't, right?
They just were good copy editors. And they didn't have that creativity. It's very hard to not make it dull. It requires humans still. I have not seen any of these things that make it better creatively. There's better ideas. There's better tightening I hadn't thought of, but it's the soul of a copy editor. 100%. I have, my team is constantly coming.
I'll say to them, okay, I need you to write up, do a page on, I think there's a great rotation coming out of flows of capital into mature markets, into emerging markets, and I want to look at the ratio between the MSCI for the world versus the US to make my point. And they come back with a paragraph to paragraphs, and I'm like, okay, this was clearly written by AI. I want you to write it. And then I want you to use AI to edit it and come up with more examples. But AI can't be the source code.
It can be, it can be the seasoning, it can be the condiment, it can heat it up, it can make it more spicy, but you've got to scramble the eggs here, and you've got to make your points. Otherwise, it sounds like a fucking computer wrote it. Let me shift back to opening out. What do you think of these governance for this type of company? These, the way they're doing it is this for-profit benefit corporation. But it's essentially a for-profit company. No, stop it.
The benefit corporation means they have to have certain goals. It's like all this bullshit invented by Union Square Ventures, where they call it a for-benefit profit. You know, I'm going to give 1% of profits and 10 years to save the whales or girls who can code, God, give me a fucking break. You're in the business of, this is what you do and you're good at it. And what we need to do is start taxing you more than the lowest tax rate since 1939.
So that we can use the money to help girls and to help, yeah. And then we'll have voters decide how to spend this money. I agree. I agree. I just want them to be a for-profit company. That's all. Just, yeah. And I appreciate they're kind of headed that way. And then have the government watch the troubles, the safety issues, have the government, and the companies and advocates all decide on safety together. That's what I would prefer.
But talking about valuation here, I mean, I just think it's just hilarious. I mean, actually interviewing Lena Conn later today. The notion that this isn't more concentrated. I mean, technology. A German sound. Sorry, go ahead. That was just a dream. What's out of you doing here? That's what you're doing. See, I'm, they're coming for you, Scott. Go ahead, sorry, Lena Conn. That's my favorite brand of marijuana. It's called, they're coming. They're coming. My second favorite, Edibles. What?
Gorilla Panic. That's what that's. That is the best name of an Edible. Anyways, or Lucy in the sky with diamonds. So let's go back to open AI and valuations. I just think it's so ridiculous. All of these technologies have faster adoption and a leader and a monopoly player emerges faster now. And that monopoly player is open AI slash Microsoft. And also, it's the best investment.
If you look at a multiple on revenues of these companies, right, and theropic trades at 40 times, open AI, which has much more momentum than is the market leader, based on this $150 billion valuation they're supposedly raising at, is trading at 44 times. So now let's turn to hugging face for complexity and some other smaller players or merging players in the space. They're raising money at 142, 150, and 157 times revenues.
My attitude is, if you can invest in the market leader that's running away with it at 44 times, that's where you want to put your money. And just to give you a sense of how expensive the entire space has become, publicly traded SaaS companies, traded six times revenues, and consumer companies. They're the old guard. Consumer companies trade. They're the cola guard as they say. And consumer companies, even gray ones, trade at like 0.2 to 2 times. 0.2 media companies, 1.5, right?
Anyway, interesting. All right, we'll see what happens, Sam. I don't know who else is left to leave. I think that's about it. I think he started really cleared out. He's got no trouble finding really smart people. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Kamala Harris' economic vision and take a listener male question about the growing role of private equity in businesses. Oh, no. Support for this show comes from ARM.
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That's her expression chooses for the middle class and outlined plans for tax incentives to spur next generation industries in a one-on-one interview with MSNBC Stephanie Ruehl, the boss. Harris explaining. Supreme Ruehl her. Supreme Ruehl her. Stephanie Ruehl her. Harris explained why she supports raising corporate taxes. Let's listen.
But we're going to have to raise corporate taxes and we're going to have to raise, we're going to have to make sure that the biggest corporations and billionaires pay their fair share. That's just it. It's about paying their fair share. I am not mad at anyone for achieving success, but everyone should pay their fair share. And it is not right that the teachers and the firefighters that I meet every day across our country are paying a higher tax than the richest people in our country.
Yeah, this is sort of Bernie Sanders-E, but I'm a capitalist but. Talk a little bit about her plans and messaging here. I thought it was a very good interview. I think it started off slow for her, not for Stephanie. And then she got going and I was like, oh. She finds her photo. She really does. It takes her like, literally, minute 16 is when she turns on. And then it was super interesting. I thought I thought it was a very solid interview.
And good, it was one of the more, it wasn't all talking points at all. She pressed her where she's going to come up the money if the House and Senate turn Republican. How can you pay for these things? Talk to me about it and then we'll move on to Donald Trump. But I'd love to know your thoughts on her announcements. I am a capitalist but, I think, is what I would call this. Yeah, like corporations are paying the lowest tax rate as we were off and selling the shows since 1939.
The wealthiest Americans are not paying their fair share. I get the Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren rent. But what? Unfortunately, it just sounds like reheated Sanders and Warren populist rhetoric, even if it's right, where I think she misses an opportunity here is to appeal. This is the problem. When someone starts saying we need to raise taxes on the rich, that's what people here. People think, okay, I'm the head of M&A transactions for Skadenarp.
My husband is a very successful chiropractor with three clinics. We make two, three million bucks a year. We live in New York. We live in Manhattan in order to have these baller jobs. We're paying 52% taxes. Yeah, welcome to Cara Swisher. And while no one feels sorry for me, I get it. I mean, Cara, you're probably paying 45, 48% tax rates. And here's the thing. This is the nuance she should add that would make her argument so much more powerful.
And by the way, she should say, the people who get most screwed or the people who play by the rules work their asses off and are super successful but are not billionaires, they're paying 50 cents on the dollar. Well, I think she was saying that billionaires in corporations. I think she was not saying. The billionaire has become, billionaire has been come code for everybody. I think she needs to outline specifically anyone. Who's talking about, yeah. I mean, here's the bottom line.
If we talk about tax rates, that's a misdirect. It's not tax rates. It's the tax code. Because while people are supposed to pay in a progressive tax rate, as soon as they make the jump to light speed and no longer become earners but owners, it's not common. It's not common. It's not common. Anyway, I mention edibles in the used AI. Raiders, huh? Raiders, Raiders room.
Anyways, the people who get most screwed in our tax code and no one has really captured this and it'll resonate with a lot of people is our work horses. The people who've done really well and live in blue states. What tax rate do you pay, Scott Gal? I've been very open about my tax rate. I've paid over the last 10 years a tax rate of 19%. So I have a self-imposed tax rate now. If I take all the money I spend in a given year and I give that much or more away.
Because I realize, I want to be clear, I take advantage of every loophole. 1202, when I sold my company, first $10 million or tax-free. Does that make any fucking sense? Does that make any sense? The answer is no. That makes no sense. There are. The tax code has gone from 400 pages to 4,000 and trust me folks that incremental 3600 are there to fuck the middle class. And the way that happens is wealthy people and corporations weaponize government and say, I got an idea.
When someone sells real estate and it's a commercial property, let them roll that into another property without recognizing a capital gain. I got an idea. I got an idea. If you start a company, the first 10 times your principal, or the first 10 million, are tax-free. I got an idea, opportunity zone. Let's help the port. No, you're not helping the port. You're helping rich. You invest in these areas or you invest in small business and you get to defer your taxes.
And if you hold onto the stock for 10 years, you pay no taxes. It's the tax code. We could- It is amazing. It is, you know, when Donald Trump said, why shouldn't I take advantage of it? I've always mad him like, well, why shouldn't he? If they let him. Like, of course. It doesn't, that's the only thing I thought that he said was sensible. The greedy fuck, but nonetheless, sensible. I just listened to Suzanne Craig.
We're going to get her onto pivot and Ross Buehner wrote this book called Lucky Loser about Donald Trump's money. You know, they're the ones that broke all those tax stories and everything else. Really amazing reporters in New York Times. And they essentially said that. He's like, he took advantage of every single possible thing and instead of being mad at him, be mad at the tax code, right? 100%.
Now, he veered into other things where he missed, you know, where he said things were worth more than they were. But the whole system is designed to let him do that, right? To let him then violate real laws and stuff like. Anyway. Once you make the jump to light speed and you can afford to have really talented people navigate your taxes. And by the way, I think it just is prisoners of war have an obligation to escape.
I think you have an obligation to your family and to pay the minimum amount of legally on taxes. No one's going to say you're funeral and you know what? What a great woman she was. She paid more than her fair share of taxes. No one's going to say that. What you need to do though is if you believe in a progressive society where the middle class isn't a naturally occurring organism, you got to vote for people that are going to actually restore. We need an AMT.
We need an alternative minimum tax that says above a million, two million, pick a high number, you pay at least 30%. Because here's the thing. No one loses anything. People above a certain amount of money, it doesn't reduce their happiness. But you can take that money and make a lot of people much, much happier. Well, let's talk about Donald Trump.
He's been tottering his own economic plans, which include according foreign companies to set up factories in the US with low taxes and little regulation. That's not a new, fresh thing. He also keeps talking tariffs. He's nieces out talking about tariffs. The latest he said he was imposed 200% tariffs on John Deere. If it moves production to Mexico, this is, you know, he had talked about the infrastructure week that never happened. And I did happen under Joe Biden.
What's interesting is Harris seems to be blunting his dominance on the economy. Now he voters favor him on the economy most polls. Because, and again, Suzanne, I talked about this, this image of Trump versus the reality of Trump. He's not a very good business person. Away from the tax stuff, he fails at businesses and overspends, etc. And this book is riveting in that regard. But he's losing. He still has the economic thing because of the apprentice, probably. His lead is just creasing.
Trump now averages a six percentage edge on the economy of her Harris. It was a 12-point lead over Biden. She's really bringing it close, like bringing it much closer, which is a good thing for her. Because the two areas he wins on her immigration and economy, she wins on almost everything else. But she's going to the border again. She's, she's going, she went to Republican voters in Pennsylvania this week who really appreciated meeting her. What do you think of his, Paul?
I think if she can zero in on the tariff problem, what she did do in this interview was Stephanie how dangerous this is and how they never did infrastructure a week. It might really start to chip away even in this short amount of time left. The most profound word amongst citizens as it relates to an election and leadership is the iword inflation. Inflation literally brings down societies and causes revolution.
Because if the amount of money I'm making doesn't keep up with the increasing price of goods, I have to go from meat to no meat to potatoes to I can't afford to pay the tuition for my, you know, kids after school and people get really, really angry. And what I would do is I would just try and literally tattoo the guy with an inflation on his forehead and saying, okay, he's talking about tariffs that will double and triple the cost of items here.
And at the same time, he wants to kick out people who are potentially here legally that are an unbelievable, these are the most, you are going to see rampant inflation with this guy. I would be all inflation all the time. The other thing that I think is going to help her that we're not talking about, Microsoft and I think a power authority are talking about restarting three mile island that's going to create billions of dollars in economic growth in Pennsylvania.
It's going to create jobs and it is happening in the right state at the right time. I would be literally, if I were vice president Harris, I would be repelling down one of those water coolers at three mile island and say, here I am. I love nuclear. I love, hello Pennsylvania. I mean. And then she goes to the fracking facility. Yeah, and then I get, and then I go to an oil rig and say, on weekends and evenings, what do I like to do? I like to frack.
I mean, I would be all over inflation, economic growth. I think she has a real powerful message here in contrast to him. I can't feel the life of me understand what he's doing, but just going back to John Deere. I used to have the most amazing John Deere lawnmower. And I had something really weird happen. A frog jumped under the lawnmower and it was terribly. He wanted to, he wanted to care met suicide, commit suicide, commit. Oh my god. I actually drove a John Deere tack.
I mowed lawns when I was a kid. I mean, when I was a teen. Did you really? I did that. For money. I love my tractor. My little John Deere tractor was a great one. I did it with like, I did it with the regular manual mower. I cut out a stroke. My dad were like, it builds character. Jesus. In the literally in the Ohio summer. That was my favorite job. It was so pleasurable to cut grass. And so you feel so good afterwards. Yeah, I'm going to ignore every, every lesbian joke running through my head.
I just don't say it's got. Don't say it. All right. Okay. In any case, Kamala, start embracing just regular millionaires. Repel down a nuclear device. There are nuclear towers. We're low white house. Hello, white house. Hello, white house. We have your answers. Call us, Kamala. Don't call us just Stephanie. I'm going to bring it to the way she wins. We're going to the white house. We're going to visit. We did already. We did that already. I don't know. I feel about that.
I'm intimidated by the white house. It was intimidated when I went with you. You missed her the last time we were there. She ran right into her. You had to, you ran out. I know. I heard you guys basically hung out. We hung out because I'll just tell you. She's like, where's Scott? She did say where Scott put none the less. I don't believe you. Did she really say that? Yeah, that was like he ran out because the white house isn't quite impressive in us.
I don't know, but I think you're being generous. Although I did have that succession, deep moment when we're walking around this place. First off, the thing that's striking about that place is just how many badass men and women are walking around with machine guns. I mean, I feel like they could fight off the Russian army if they needed to.
So the thing that my moment though, my one moment, was you see this crowd of people following a guy, this handsome guy who just looks like he'd be Secretary of State and it is Secretary Blinken. And this gaggle, this line, this running line in and around Secretary Blinken is he's moving to his next very important meeting. All of a sudden he stops and he's like, it's Karah! I don't wait in line. I don't wait in line.
And you come over and then he came over to me and he said, I saw you on Bill Maher, which was a nice moment for me and then the line continued. So yeah, you're the definition of soft power. Anyway, let's pivot to a lesser question. The question comes from Mark, let's listen. Hello, Karen Scott. This is Mark Loenstein. I am a long time industry analyst in the telecom space. I've enjoyed your show for years. And my question actually has to do with the role of private equity in our economy.
It just seems lately that the headlines are all pointing to the negatives of private equity incursions into everything from doctors practices to real estate to vet practices and so on. And it usually seems, you know, exemplified, for example, by the giant collapse of the Stuart health care system recently. Usually it seems that the consumer is not at the winning end of these deals ultimately since these PED deals are so focused on cutting costs.
So I'd love you to actually take a balanced approach and talk about the role of private equity in our economy. And maybe enlighten us with some examples where private equity is actually playing a positive role. Maybe there's some examples or key studies you could discuss. Thanks so much. Ooh, he wants work from us. Yes, thanks, Mark. I'm not an expert here. I know Scott is much more. He's more involved with private equity companies.
What's the area they've just moved into that people are a little nervous about? Oh, they're really big in rollups and health care as a dental clinics, dermatology clinics. Right, I get that. But there was another area where there hasn't been private equity that they may be allowing them into. I don't think they're legally prohibited from anything that's resile. I don't see why they would be. Oh, sports teams, sports teams. I think it was. Oh, yeah, they're moving in on sports teams.
They're moving in on sports teams. That's what it is. To me, I'm not an expert in this. They're like the board. They'll just come wherever they can make money and cut costs. That's what they do. Sort of, and their idea of themselves is that they're cleaning up the economy and cleaning out the bad fish essentially, the dead fish. And that's good. That's a good thing, even if it ends up collapsing certain industries.
Of course, most people have the opposite that they're repatient as vultures, taking all the good bits for themselves and leaving us with hollowed out cities and companies and et cetera, et cetera. I don't know, Scott, give me a good example. Yeah, I don't buy the argument. I think it's populist bullshit.
First off, let me acknowledge that any private equity partner and venture capital firm partner in hedge fund, there's absolutely no reason why they should get a lower tax rate on what is essentially a commission. The way it works in private equity and hedge funds is carried interest. It carried interest loophole thanks to Chris and cinema where she wanted to support the private equity firms in her state. None. Again, I've always said this.
It doesn't bother me that our elected representatives are horrors. It bothers me what cheap horrors they are. But effectively, what these guys have figured out a way to do in hedge funds is if I sell, if I buy a copier, and I sell it for more, I get a commission. And that is, or if I sell something, I get a commission. I do a good job.
In private equity or venture capital, if you make money for your investors, even though you didn't put your own capital in, you get long-term capital gain treatment. It's called the carried interest loophole. It's the most insane unfair part. The wealthiest, literally the wealthiest people in America, pay lower taxes than people who get a commission or a tip or something on something else. So let me be clear, the compensation structure of these firms is totally fucked up.
Having said that, coming in, I've worked with a lot of private equity firms. They come in and you're right. They will cut costs. And a lot of times it doesn't work. And a lot of times, and most times, it not only saves the company, makes it stronger, and it makes the employees and the community and the people who stuck with it wealthier. In addition, private equity also invests. I co-invested with Apollo and Yahoo.
They bought it from Verizon, and they are proactively investing to try and give Yahoo a fighting chance of being one of the key players. And Yahoo has thrived under private equity ownership. So the notion that they're just these evil folks coming in, it's just not accurate. You might say, all right, there's tax loopholes we got to close here. But if you didn't have private equity out there, this is what would happen.
The most immediate, if you put real taxes or prohibitions on what industry's private equity could go into, the guy Craig Spodak and Delray has the best dental practice. He will eventually get bought by private equity. His ability to retire, small business and medium-sized business owners will make a lot less money because they won't have these giant pools of capital coming to them saying, look, rather than opening, rather than operating one dental clinic in Delray, let's operate 50 of them.
We can all have one marketing, one CFO. This place is gonna make more money. You're gonna sell me most, but not all of this company. And we're all gonna make a lot of money because we have the capital, the infrastructure, and the expertise to make this a more valuable robust business. Are there examples of private equity purchase firms where they learn too much debt, they take out their money, and then basically let the company die?
Yeah. That's a lot of movies starting with Gordon Gekko Wall Street. But that is not a private equity player that comes in. These people aren't stupid. They're not gonna just sell you the company at a price where you could just layer on a shit ton of debt. I remember talking to Jeff Buchist, the former CEO of Time Warner, and an offer was made for his company by a rival that we talk about a lot. And he said, no, I could go out and pay that just by borrowing debt.
I'm not gonna let you use my debt capacity to buy me out. So the notion that these companies get bought for a price where you could just go layer it with debt and then shut it down and the private equity players right off into the sunset, that's just not economic reality here. So they play a valuable part of the ecosystem. They juice up the prices of asset owners and small and medium-sized businesses. They should just pay more taxes.
I think we do get our visions from Hollywood, which finds the worst cases and portrays them that way. And obviously there's been a lot of devastation individually and it matters to everyone who's been devastated, right? But a lot of the times they do grab things that are on their way down, right? On their way down, need, but not everything does need consolidation. But I'll just, I'll give you one more quick example. A close trend of mine is the best cosmetic dentist in Los Angeles, David Frey.
He did my veneers and I, I don't know if you know this, I have a gorgeous smile here. You two look fantastic. I have a gorgeous smile. Yeah, it's my best feature out of my sublime skin tone on the smile on my back with the tramp stamp. Anyways, he will eventually, his retirement is, he's at the age where he's got another 10 years left on his tires, tread on his tires.
He will eventually sell, I would bet, to a private equity firm that'll say, David, we want you to keep growing and we're going to do a better job of marketing. We understand technology. We can buy the best software around scheduling. We can buy, which he doesn't want to do. Which he doesn't know how to do and doesn't have the capital to do. It'll give him a retirement.
It'll make sure that his business brings in more cosmetic dentists, more hiring and the investors in the private equity firm, which largely consists of public pension funds, firemen, cops, widows, whatever. This is a key part of the economy. Yeah, okay. All right, there we have it. Anyway, if you got a question on your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Just send a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. All right, it's got one more quick break.
We'll be back for predictions. Let's go. Let's go. Support for this podcast comes from Huntress. Keeping your data safe is important. However, if you're a small business owner then protecting the information of yourself through company and your workers is vital. In comes Huntress. Huntress is where fully managed cybersecurity meets human expertise. They offer a revolutionary approach to manage security that isn't all about tech. It's about real people providing real defense.
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Support for this show comes from Amazon Business. We could all use more time. Amazon Business offers smart business buying solutions so you can spend more time growing your business and less time doing the admin. I can see why they call it smart. Learn more about smart business buying at Amazon Business.com. Okay, Scott, we're gonna hear a prediction. I'm gonna make one. Jean Smart is gonna be brilliant as well as Maya Rudolph on Saturday Night Live, which is premiering this week.
50th year, incredible, incredible. Lauren Michaels, you gotta give it to them. You gotta friggin give it to this guy. They have, you know, everyone's like, it's not fun anymore. It's been very funny for 50 years. I mean, on the whole, like some bad stuff, but when you look at like the people that have gone through there, even, you know, there was one, they were showing sort of 50 years of it.
You just are astonished by the talent that's wandered through that place and left and come and gone and stuff like that. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be a great show. I love Jean Smart and Maya Rudolph is gonna make a great Comma Lahera. So I'm very excited. So you're to your prediction. So my prediction is that gaming and casino companies and rehab clinics, which by the way, are being rolled up by private equity and noven Nordisk and GOP1 drugs are all gonna boom.
And unfortunately, reverse engineers are a pretty dark place. And that is, we are essentially, and I referenced this earlier in the program, we are using Godlike technology to provide so much immediate Dopa to young people as their brains get wired, that we set them up for a massive craving for Dopa, which makes them more prone to addiction. And now 12% of boys and men over the age of 12 have a substance use disorder compared to six and a half percent of women and girls.
Boys are especially vulnerable to this Dopa craving. And about one in 10 children who play video games to the signs of addiction, and 50% of American teenagers feel addicted to their mobile devices. Fast food triggers Dopa releases in the brains reward system and over a third of kids eat fast food every day. And there's a new study that just came out that shows when a state legalizes gambling, there are 25 to 35% more bankruptcies.
And so what you have essentially is, the brightest people in the world, the deepest resource people in the world, I'm spending a lot of their time trying to get kids addicted to fast Dopa when they're young. And the downstream externalities are just gonna be enormous. And what are we, I was thinking about this, what are we supposed to do as parents? Kind of our entire mission is to give them what I'll call slope up and that is slow Dopa. And that is like, okay, I work out with my son.
I'm one of the most, I'm like, I was sold a bag of shit about this boarding school nonsense that he'd be home on weekends. My son is home 24 hours on the weekend and it's like one of the worst things that's happened to me. Anyways, I think I said that it's one of the nice things that's happened to him. But every night or almost every night, I try and get on, FaceTime with him for seven or nine minutes and I do like this many crossfit workout with him.
And I just like seeing him and he likes it because he's at the stage I was and that is he keeps growing and he's, you know, real thin. But he's starting to see muscles. And the whole idea is slow Dopa. Like, okay, you work hard, you work out every day and in six, eight, 10 weeks, you get some Dopa. You study hard for your GCSEs in biology, you put it off, you get a nine on his GCSEs in biology, which we're hugely proud of. Our entire fucking mission is to create slow Dopa.
Invest, be disciplined. You won't get the Dopa right away, but over time you're gonna feel something even more exciting and more rewarding. And that is you're gonna get a dopamine rush when you realize achievement, it's success from long term investment. That's the basis, I think, or one of the basics of parenting in the most well-restored companies in the world are fighting us. They're trying to give kids a sense that I need fucking immediate gratification right away.
And I see it not as much now, but with my youngest, when he was on screen, action reaction, action reaction, TikTok, action reaction. Don't like this video, no problem. I can get to something with Dopa. It's funny, it's titillating. And then he gets off the fucking screen. And it's like, where's the Dopa? So you know he starts doing, he starts wreaking havoc in the household to get a reaction. He has to have a reaction.
And I think we are setting up an entire generation of young people, maybe even more so among boys who are totally into online gaming, gambling, drugs, and Richard Reeves just came out, the president of the American and student boys and men just kind of with this really frightening study showing that. Deaths of despair have skyrocketed since 2004, people who died by suicide, violence, gundass. But more than anything, it's been drugs, opiates, and drug addiction.
And I think we're going to continue to lose more and more and more as long as the greatest shareholder value increase in history is putting fucking Kim Cook outside of junior high school with a bunch of smack. This is happening every day across America and we're starting to see signals. Oh, you legalize online gambling. There's an entire generation that needs that Dopa and boom, bankruptcy skyrocket.
My prediction, gaming, rehab clinics, novenor disk that produces GLP1, which has been shown to be effective against these types of addictions are going to skyrocket. And it's not going to be nothing, but a transfer of wealth from government who has to cover those bankruptcies, cover those hospitals, and families are going to pay an extraordinary price. Yeah, well, that's a big one. Wow, there you go. Wow. I'm going to go drink beer. I'm going to the fucking tents for October first.
I'm going to go drink beer. Okay, I think beer, go to the beer garden. I forgot one thing, one more prediction for me. My brother, David just turned 60. Oh nice. And I want to wish him the next, I predict he's going to have a great next 20, 30 years of his life, and he's been a great brother. And I don't talk about him that much, but he's fantastic. You've become increasingly fond of him just in the time I've known you. Well, I don't love the conservative stuff, but that's okay. He's...
Separate the person from the politics. Separate the person from the politics. I try. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. He's a great dad. And he's a very good brother. And he's a great son to my mom. He's been great. But happy birthday, David. Happy birthday. Can I ask you a question?
Sure. When you're both really fucking old, which you are already and he's getting there, when you're really old and you're hanging out, and you're holding each other's hands, and you're like reflecting on life as you get towards the end. Yeah. Are you going to remember what a great guy was when a great daddy was, or that he was a good servant? And then of course, I, oh thank you, Scott Gav course. I still, I always remember what a great guy he is. Take that pernay, Brown. Take that.
Oh my God. Esther Peral, she has nothing on me. We'll import another psychologist in here. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot. Please read us out, Scott. Today's show is produced by Larry Namen, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin, earnator Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Bows and Melissa Vario. Neesha Kerwa is Vox Media's Executive Producer of Audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show or every listening podcast.
Thanks for listening to pivot from New York Magazine of Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business, guerrilla panic. That is so my favorite brand of edibles. Support for this show comes from Amazon Business. We could all use more time. Amazon Business offers smart business buying solutions so you can spend more time growing your business and less time doing the admin.
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