Support for the show comes from AWS as part of the 230 million dollar commitment to generative AI startups. Amazon Web Services launched their Global Generative AI Accelerator. This program is designed to accelerate the next generation of startup innovation out of thousands of applicants. AWS will select 80 of the most promising startups to receive up to 1 million in AWS credits and the resources they need to shape the future of AI. Learn more and apply now at startups.awks.
45 dollars upfront for three months plus taxes and fees from our new customers for limited time and limited more than 40 gigabytes per month. So, full turns at MintMobile.com. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Karen Swisher. How are you doing, Scott? Where are you? Uh, I'm somewhere in between Greece and Turkey headed towards the island of coast, KOS. Oh, so you're on a boat in the in the in the Greek Isles,
correct? Yeah, I'm on a boat. I'm on a boat. Oh, how's that going? How's that going? Oh, it's awful. It's awful. No, it's wonderful. It's, um, I had never done a holiday like this until a couple of years ago and it's wonderful. The kids are, you know, the kids jump off things and go into town and basically everybody takes care of the kids. So it's sort of like built in child care and you have, you go to a different island. It's like, it's nothing but it's absolutely wonderful
and I'm feel very self conscious talking about it. But yeah, it's wonderful. Oh, all right, then we won't talk about it. I'm in the, uh, in the office of my, of my father-in-law, he's a, he's a psychiatrist. He used to be well, it's about time. I'm glad you have finally decided to seek help. My mother-in-law is a psychotherapist, right? A psychoanalyst. I'm not going to get this right, but anyway, they're, they specialize in a psychiatric profession, but it's the nicest place. I don't
know why I never went to therapy before. They've, they have this office. I feel like unloading myself here. I feel like talking about my childhood and everything else here. It's such a nice place. Well, that's what Pivots for. And this is, this is, yeah, I guess so. This is a couch in the form of a podcast. Yeah, it's true. I'm in an open-minded zone here in this place. It feels so peaceful. That would be the twilight zone and it doesn't exist. But anyways,
go ahead. Anyway, there's so much going on. See, I'm unusually calm given all these stuff that went on since we last spoke. We've got a lot to get to today with the fallout from last week's presidential debate, obviously, which is drove in a lot of people crazy. Plus, our friend of Pivot is Kim Scott, former Apple and Google executive. We wrote the book Radical Canter a few years ago. She's out with a new book Radical Respect, how to work together better. That's a good thing for
us to discuss, I think. But first, the Supreme Court just released a decision on the Trump immunity case in a six to three ruling. They're all six to three rulings divided along partisan lines. The court said former presidents have absolute immunity for clearly official acts, but no immunity for unofficial acts. The case now goes back to the lower court to determine whether Trump's actions were in the official unofficial capacity, which I think this is kind of
what everyone thought would have been, although a lot of people are freaking out. Just so people don't remember, this is the case where Trump is facing four federal felony counts for allegedly trying to overturn the 2020 election. Justice Sotomayor wrote in her dissent, in every use of official power, the president is now king above the law. So I don't know, what do you think?
I'm actually not bothered by this, but what I think that says is, look, under the huge powers and responsibilities and decisions with imperfect information, the president of the United States Sotomayor, he does need pretty broad immunity across the decisions made under the auspices of his presidential duties. Now, having said that, the fact that now whether the guy putting up a golf tent and trying to inspire an insurrection and sending people hunting for speaker policy,
was that an active president? That was that an official act. So I'm not that bothered by this, what I am bothered by, and it's not getting any attention, is I think a much more significant ruling came down. And that was basically the chevron doctrine is being was found unconstitutional. And this is a doctrine that essentially says that the courts will defer when there's ambiguous
information and a regulation, they'll defer to the experts at the respective agencies. So they defer to the scientists, aviation experts, and climate change folks at the EPA, FDA, FAA, you know, these agencies touch almost everything we do. And now they're saying, no, we're not going to defer to the experts. The difference is the chevron deference, which I thought I love that expression. I wanted to name another child chevron deference. It's a good
way, man. But yeah, it's a defer to the agencies. Now, the argument on the other side is that these agencies are unelected officials that get to decide on things that are critical, and they don't get to see the light of day in court or be argued with, which I think is the conservativeism trying to sort of remove bureaucratic power for many decades now. And in some cases, that they are correct. There is too much bureaucratic power without accountability. In the other
hand, you know, experts should be deciding on lots and lots of things. It's the push pull of the U.S. since it started, I think, in many ways. Yeah, it still bothers me, though, that given that given the gridlock and Washington how political everything is, I do think the folks at the FAA, the CDC, they do try to call balls and strikes, and these people aren't looking at what's going to get them on TikTok usually. They're lack of fame as a feature, not a bug. This stuff to me,
again, it's disassembling institutions in the government. That's what they're trying to do. That's the goal, I think, here in this. I think the problem is, I was thinking about this a lot, because part of me is like, um, bureaucrats really shouldn't be able to make decisions in secret. Like, on a lot of things that they do. There should be a day in court for people who are being,
you know, brought in front of the government essentially. And part of it makes me feel like that's probably right that there shouldn't be power coalesced into bureaucracies, right? But it is that idea that we don't trust our government that really is more disturbing, right? That we don't assume the very best from the people that are doing this. You know what I mean? Like,
often there's overstepping by these kind of bodies. And at the same time, the intent of overstepping is not this evil government trying to contrap this deep state idea that has caught on with so many people. That's not, it used to be a small portion of people. And now it's a little ever larger portion that the government is out to get you. I'm more cynical. I say it as a naked transfer of wealth to large corporations who have an army of lawyers who can just come up any attempt to stop them
from pouring mercury into the river. Yeah, that's absolutely true. This is always, this is a pro business. 100% it always has been. Instead of a metallurgist or an oncologist going, this is what happens when you let automobile companies let their runoff and their ways go into the water table. And don't sue us. We are right. Defer to us where the experts. If we're bad at what we do, then find a new head of the EPA fine. But this is essentially, these agencies are going to be
just as expensive. But instead, they're going to be emasculated. And when you have the least productive legislative sessions in history, who on earth is actually going to run the fucking place. Right. You do have to have standards for, you know, when do you need to, you know, when do you need to have a C check inspection on your plane that flies people around? And if they don't have to maintain these incredibly tight standards imposed by the FAA based on, you know, ambiguous, I mean,
some of this language, language all over the place is ambiguous. Then smaller airlines are going to say, we're about to go to business. We can't afford this. We're going to lower our standards. Yeah. And our legislators can't pass anything either that would help them. Right. That's the problem. So don't get back to the immunity thing. You know, this is about doing job two, right? What is the job you're doing, President Blank, right? Whoever it happens to be. So obviously, it's going to delay the
trials possibly. There was a, this was the final opinion of an eventful Supreme Court term with conservative justices holding the reins. Do you think that will affect voters? I don't think so. I think that we, the chattering class, or under the impression that people spend as much time as we do thinking about politics and the candidates and the issues. I think most people, as a matter of fact, probably the people who will decide the election. I think of myself in my late 20s, early 30s,
where I wouldn't, literally wouldn't think about an election until one or two weeks before. And I would make my choice based on general perceptions. And while I think a lot of the sad's up to favorability or unfavorability for a candidate, I think people do recognize that, oh, the president has powers over the Supreme Court. I don't think they drill down that far. Well, except for row. I think row down. That's the one that broke through. I'm not sure this immunity thing will.
I don't think the Chevron will. I don't think, you know, the homelessness, it was sort of a mixed bag, right? There's a lot of mixed bags here. Even if you're, I know people go sort of lose their minds over this, but the fact matters, row is the only one that really has. I think you're 100% respected people. But I'm not even sure that they will even go as far as the Supreme Court. I think they will just go this candidate is a respect bodily autonomy. This one does not. And it's
disassembling it. I don't even think they have the time, the swing voters who are really busy making a living and getting on with their lives, moderates, or young people, quite frankly, just, I mean, I know nothing about sports. I don't want to know anything about sports. Most people feel that way about our lot of people feel that way about politics. But I agree with you, one candidate will be seen. And I think this, that could, it could be a deciding factor as in favor of protecting
women's bodily autonomy and the others disassembling it. Yeah. I do think people do know the Roe v. Way thing. I think that's very well known by young people too. I think they, that's where they link to the Supreme Court in that way. But you're right. You're right. You know, I mean, I think they, they have a, they, most people have a vague sense of it. But something that they don't or do have a vague sense of is the current state of the race. As we record, this has been several days since the
debate between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump. The debate was ostensibly supposed to confers about Joe Biden's age and mental abilities. Instead, it did the opposite. According to a CBS News poll conducted after debates, 72% of registered voters don't believe Biden has the mental and cognitive health to serve as president. 49% said the same of Trump. That's a large number two. We, you and I talked to each other on the phone right afterwards.
And we had our little, we had a little pivot show by ourselves on the phone. So how do you feel right now? Mine, mine's, I've shifted again, but go ahead. Tell me what your thoughts are. Look, I, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. Exactly where I was. And that is. I think we're descending into a slow-bearing fascism because the Democratic Party wants to whistle past
the democracy or fascism graveyard. I don't. I think we constantly criticized Republicans who were saying one thing behind closed doors and then refusing to state the truth about an unstable man who was reckless and dangerous in public. And I feel like the party elders and the Democratic Party and many of the people in the White House are absolutely guilty of the same thing.
Some table stakes here. I believe, and I think 45% of the electorate believes, even if he's in a coma and can just occasionally wink, that he would be a superior president in America in the world would be better off regardless of his cognitive abilities or lack thereof. Let's, let's, no arguing he's a good man. In my opinion, we'll go down and this term will go down as one of the
more positive presidential terms in history. Let's focus on if and how we get selected. And I believe those moderates and the people, young people deciding based on impressions of who they want to lead, we'll see someone who is in severe cognitive decline. There's basically the definition of an old white guy and I don't think I think he's going to get absolutely slaughtered in the election. And Wow, he moved to slaughter, not close. Well, it always tightens, but Cara, the polls I'm saying,
I just think here's the problem. Despite how smart we are, despite all of the resources, despite how incredibly talented his staff is, despite what a good person he is, despite the threat of Trump, Darth Vader, Lex Luthor, none of them hold a candle to the devastating, unnegotiable, 100% always undefeated faux villain that is biology. The best we can hope for here is that it doesn't get worse and it's already way too bad. And there's already some great talking
points and more denial. Hey, let's go, let's all go back into denial. I'm not going to judge him on 90 minutes. I'm going to judge him on the last three and a half years. Yeah, that's a great something 90 minute. That's a great line. But here's the problem. The voters who decide whether he's president or specifically whether Trump is president or not will make their decision on the last three and a half years. They'll make it on what they think's going to happen the next four and a half.
That's correct. Let me just put out some things. A lot of donors, pundits, and editorial boards are calling for Biden to step aside. The Biden campaign, though, said they've raised 33 millions instead of bait with 26 million coming from grassroots donations. That's interesting. Other's hand, the debate viewership 51.3 million people tuned into watch debate live. Only 3.9 million were
between the ages of 18 and 34. So, no, that's a lot. I'd lot more than I thought. They're putting up an ad, the Biden people, a new 60 second ad, which the president acknowledges age concerns pledges to get back up. It's really, it's, they're trying their heart. It's not to Jill Biden just gave a interview to Vogue and she added to it saying we're going to get back up. That's there. I think and she's particularly stubborn and she's the one that would have an effect on Joe Biden. And it
does remind me a little bit of Ruth Bader Ginsburg or Diane Feinstein. There's nobody there to say anything. We'll get into what should be done. But it seems like they're doubling down on riding with Biden. I don't look until they decide not to. It's like a board. A board has the full throated support. The CEO always has the full thread support of the board until they don't. It sounds like if you look at the logistics here, there's no way out other than him deciding himself
and people showing up. Supposedly, it was like, well, could Obamacus beat them? Supposedly, they have a strain relationship ever since he blocked them out of the way of running against Trump in 16 in favor of Hillary. Basically, it's his family. He won't listen to anybody else. So I spent a few hours on the phone with a pretty senior senator on Friday discussing this. And he was very blunt with me. He said they are absolutely in a state of panic and they feel
a bit chagrante at how everyone was in a state of denial here. And this confirmed everyone's worse fears. And it's already I see it happening already again. Everyone's like, he had an off day. It was a cold. You know how they're speaking about them. They're speaking about them. The same way you talk about an old man or someone who's gone undergone cancer. You know, well, he has good and
bad days. That's now how we're describing him. And this is the front line. 80 years ago, we were the front line against fascism, America's resources, generosity, innovation, military complex, democracy, rule of law, and general character. And the fact that we produce so much innovation and capital to fund the world's greatest fighting force. And we still have people who are willing to
put on a uniform and fight for something bigger than them. We are the front line. And the front line is now needs to push back on a gender apartheid that is erupting everywhere around the world. A lurch to the right to fascism, an increasingly aggressive and invasive Russia that China is keeping an eye on to see if anyone will hold the line against them. And the reality is we just can have a feeble old man in cognitive decline leading the charge here. And any young person, any
swing voter is, I believe, is just not going to vote for the guy. Let's talk about what could be done because he's stepping aside. I just talked to Heather Cox Richardson. And she's like, he's not stepping aside. Just FYI, the ability to get him to step aside has always resulted historically in the incumbent party losing. In any case, Gavin Newsom has said he would never turn my back on Biden, Gretchen Whitmer has disavowed the draft Gretch movement. Both of them, I have texted both and they
said the same. Like, I mean, this is the line they're doing. And I know you said it's up until they didn't, but the complications are quite significant. The other thing is, as many people pointed out, you've got to go through Kamala Harris at the same time too, to like move her aside as a whole another sort of angering different constituencies. So the getting to that point is incredibly complex. And of course, the Republicans, they fill it up in choir, had a, the Republican should dump Trump
for all the things he said, but they're not, they're not going to, you know, move aside there. He's done. Right. I get it. I get it. But let me just say they are not going, the complications of replacing them are quite significant. 100%. My understanding is, and I think we're in the same place here is I've spent a lot of time looking at game, theory and talking to people. The bottom
it all kind of comes down to the same thing. He's got to decide to, to, to withdraw because you go to the convention, the delegates are fiduciaries for, for, for other parties who have said, we pledge our vote to President Joe Biden. So for them to create chaos at the party and decide that they might not go through with who they are supposed to allocate their delegates to, I'm not even sure they can do that, but, but it would be there. It would be chaos. Everyone I've said said, we would be
in such uncharted territory. Everything I've heard and tell me if you agree with this because you have better connections in DC. Is it he has to decide to withdraw? He has to decide. I've said that, and I don't think he will. I think he will not. Even if he does, even if he does, then what? It would have to be soon. He would have to, and then the next question is, well, wouldn't he have to stand behind his vice president? Or is he going to say to the first, you know, nonwhite woman on
the ticket, no, just kidding. I had such terrible judgment. You shouldn't be the president. You would never fit to be president. I mean, how does it play out? Is it immediately he calls for a debate? He rallies behind Governor Whitmer and says, we, it's time for a female president and campaigns with her. You know, the craziest thing I heard was Obama becoming vice president. Like it was all you should hear all these theories. This crazy. It's a good idea. It's
both of you that don't like each other now. No, we are just okay. I'm just saying. I had a white board and I was going to probabilities. If your sole objective was to not have Trump in office, if that was your sole objective and you were putting party politics and the reality of the situation aside, you would have the Democrats nominate Mitt Romney. Think about it. Interesting.
I it'll never happen. They didn't like them last time. If your sole objective was for Trump not to be, you get a decent number of the Democrats to vote for them and a decent number of Republicans would vote for them. I don't know about that. Yeah. I don't know. I think, you know, the problem is with all these new candidates is none of them are vetted except for Kamala essentially. And so there's all new fresh things. Gavin's got a massive stuff behind him and, you know, it's Whitmer
will there's certainly popular in their states, but they've got. Gavin's got a load of negatives around him. Gretchen has not been tested as people don't know who she is, right? And then when you go to, you know, like the person I was thinking was Mark Cuban, right? Like everyone knows him. But again, the vetting on him would be brutal, I suspect. I think Whitmer or Newsom, I think if if he were to decide, look folks, it's time for new leadership. I've lost this stuff. I want to
do what's best for the country. I'm throwing my weight behind, you know, America's, but I'm throwing my weight behind Whitmer or Newsom. There needs to be a debate. They need to pick their vice president. I think vice president Harris has been a great VP. She hasn't resonated with the public as we'd hope let's be honest. I think the polling immediately shows that candidate up five to nine points. Yeah. Yeah. I don't we'll see. It is really kind of people are sort of losing their minds. It's
really funny. Everyone is like totally like opposite. Like it's, I was trying to be like, well, on one hand, and people like, you can't do this. Whatever side you're on, like you have to get rid of them. You have to keep it. Oh, in the shaming complex, if you put up a thing, I was like, well, it's really complicated. I love to see I love to see a president. And a big picture of Gavin Newsom and people like, your age is a misdiscusting. I mean, people,
yeah, the shaming complex to try and get everyone. Well, your age is a misdiscusting, but keep going. Trust me. I have worse attributes. And my retort is, I am an ageist and so is biology. Anyways, look, this is, this is an incredible Clagmire. It strikes me that it has to be his decision. It has to be his decision fast. I don't think Jillie is letting them. I think Jill is running the show at this point. I'm feeling I'm happy. It's very Edith Wilson vibes happening
here with her. I guess we can a burn is it's very Nancy Reagan and it's Wilson was running the fucking country for a while when he had a stroke. I don't know if you recall that. But here's the thing. We're going to figure out a way. We're going to figure out the only candidate who could probably lose to Trump. And that is someone who is in severe cognitive decline. And I will note one other thing. Guess who didn't show up to any of the baits and has gone gone A. Well,
Melania, she's out. She is. She apparently doesn't want to live in the White House anymore either, by the way. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like Melania's got the right angle here. Well, whatever. Yeah, she didn't show up at the debate. She's such a mystery. No, she's not. I don't
think she's very smart. Anyway, all right, Scott, let's go on a quick break and we'll be come back to Supreme Court's other major ruling today and what it means for social media companies and we'll back with a friend of pivot Kim Scott and White Company should embrace radical candor and radical respect in the office. Support for pivot comes from zippercrooter. The summer is here, which means those seasonal businesses are now looking to hire and that's great news for lifeguards and carnival
game operators, but your business needs to find great candidates no matter the season. That's why you need zippercrooter. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, how do you find top talent before the competition gets to them? Zippercrooter. And then right now, you can try zippercrooter for free at zippercrooter.com slash pivot. When you use zippercrooter, you gain access to their powerful matching technology that dies deep to identify top talent for your roles.
As soon as you post your drop, zippercrooter smart technology starts showing you qualified people for it. See why four out of five employers who post on zippercrooter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try zippercrooter for free. Zippercrooter.com slash pivot. Again, that's zippercrooter.com slash pivot. Zippercrooter, the smartest way to hire. Fox created. This is advertiser content from PBS.
Jason Scott practically grew up at the Pike Place Fish Market in Seattle. His mom was a fish monger. And now he's one too. He sees firsthand the toll that irresponsible fishing can take on our oceans. I grew up here. I'm only 51. I know stuff that we can't even get locally anymore because it's been over fished. That's not fair. A common misconception is that wild caught is good and farmed is bad. But Jason says it's not that simple. I think as a consumer, you shouldn't
accept if the person's selling you, you know, your fish or meat or whatever it is. It doesn't know where it comes from or how it's caught or the same. And, you know, we're moving a lot of fish. We need ways where everybody can eat it and we're not depleting the oceans. Whether the fish you
eat is sustainably farmed or wild caught, knowing the difference is the first step. In PBS's new three-part docuseries, Hope in the Water, scientists, celebrities and regular citizens come together to explore unique solutions and challenges facing our oceans and how we preserve the food it provides. They know it for you to keep enjoying the riches of the ocean. You're going to have to also be a
friend of the ocean. Join Chef Jose Andres, Martha Stewart, Shailene Woodley and Baratunde Thurston as they deep dive into the powerful blue food technologies that can not only feed us, but help save our threatened seas and fresh waterways. Stream Hope in the Water now on the PBS app. Ryan Reynolds here from InMobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer,
which is apparently a thing. Mid mobile unlimited premium wireless. I'm going to get 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 15, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month. So, give it a try at midmobile.com slash switch. 45 dollars left from three months plus taxes and fees, promoting for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month,
so full turns at midmobile.com. Scott, we're back and more Supreme Court news. The court sending disputes over social media laws and Texas Florida back down to the lower courts as a reminder, the Texas law prohibits companies from removing content based on their author's viewpoint. And Florida law bars companies from removing politicians from their sites. The Supreme Court said
the lower courts did not conduct the proper analysis of the First Amendment challenges. The laws were main blocked while lower courts sort out the constitutional issues, so they've knocked it back down. So, so far, I guess social media companies are safe, I guess. It goes back down. It gets all they've decided not to rule on this thing. They've ruled on a couple of these things, but not this one. Yeah, I don't understand the ramifications of the ruling. I think it's just
they're going to let the I think they're correct. They should not make a decision here. It's it's look, these are I think eventually we'll get overturned by constitutional issues around First Amendment that these companies have a First Amendment. They have they have they themselves have their First Amendment rules. And so this is the government. It Texas and Florida intervening in the First Amendment rights of these companies. They can do whatever they want their private companies.
They shouldn't I don't know. I think that's what they're doing. They're kicking the can. Anyway, that's what we'll see what that happens, but mostly in general, the Supreme Court is ruled in in favor of government keeping their myths off of social media companies as they did earlier with the one where the government can talk to social media companies about risks, etc. One thing is I just wanted to ask you very quickly. Amazon is planning to launch a new budget
storefront to compete with she and and Timo. The storefront was announced the closed door event for sellers in China. Many items will be under $20. Amazon will ship products directly from China to the US within nine to 11 days. It's not announced to launch date, but we'll begin accepting products in the fall. I think it's probably smart to do this. Correct. I'm shocked. It took
him this long. The biggest trend. The biggest trend in what I'll call I don't know what with big tech or the firms that any firm that's added more than $50 billion in market capitalization within 12 month period has one thing in common. And that is it's an asset life business model. And whether it's Uber, whether it's Airbnb and obviously the best example is Nvidia that
decided they didn't even need a chip plant to make chips. Basically she and into a lesser extent Timo use machine learning an AI to look at activity on a website and based on that activity on their website they can meet the software, the brains, you know this villain if you will almost says this
is how many tie-dye tops are going to be in demand in the next 24 hours. It immediately figures out again using technology in a nanosecond which of their factories should produce these tops and exactly how many it immediately starts sending messages to the transportation infrastructure. And using all of this without stores without warehouses without factories without trucks without any assets it's able to get people apparel for 40 to 60% less than say Zara or H&M.
And in an economy where young people are making less money but still have a desire to express individuality coming into their mating years you are seeing she and this year will be bigger than Amazon and apparel and next year will be back bigger than Walmart in apparel and be the biggest apparel company in the world. So this makes all sorts of sense to have to get into this category that I think you can loosely call on-demand retail. Sort of beyond fast fashion right it's even
faster I guess. I call it's not fast fashion it's on-demand fashion and they don't there's no I mean they think about this carer is when you talk about efficiencies and boring things there's almost no returns because it's so inexpensive there's almost no sales or waste because they can perfectly calibrate demand. Yeah you have you you're able to get products from China to a home in Wisconsin it comes in these like plastic bags and a kid for 80 bucks can get three dresses two pairs of jeans
and four tops. Would you outline the criticism you get when you push this company for people to understand? Yeah that I'm that I'm a climate terrorist that I'm not addressing I'm ignoring everything from forced labor to the environmental disaster that is fast fashion and that's you know it did I'm a total fucking hypocrite when I pretend to be a progressive and amount they're investing
in a company that is bad for the environment and my defense is I believe that young people need inexpensive things and much of this rhetoric is being fueled by the incumbents and when and I have gotten to know the chairman and the vice chairman of this company pretty well they do know
business in China that's huge supply chain in China and what I would say is at least they've convinced me that whatever standards you want to put on Amazon Nike or Apple they will comply with and try and set the bar and everything about forced labor cut and coming out of a certain region they now source or cotton out of Brazil and whenever anybody says starts complaining about she in
or I say okay now do Nike now do Apple. Yeah I would agree that's that's why I want to do is say this because I think one of the things you're just talking about fast fashion versus on demand fashion I think I've always thought it should be we should know exactly what we need to
make so we can be more efficient rather than spray and pray kind of thing where they just have so much stuff and then they throw it out or they redo it or it gets it goes into landfill or goes to other countries you know where they sort out t-shirts and things like that um I've been trying
you know what to do with these things and how to we spend a lot of time figuring out what to do with the clothes after we have too many of it because it's not correctly judged on how much they should make I've always thought fashion should have been much more everything should be more efficient food production everything else and this is one way to this is the way to it but I like the idea
on demand retail which I've always thought made sense more than anything else. Well I use the wrong language people it gives me being environmentally you know not not responsible not not not not climate but I take the other side of this I think young people need more stuff for less money
and I also think China and the US need to kiss and make up and start doing business together I think there are real concerns around the amount of resources that go into making a t-shirt the amount of water it takes I think there are real issues around a consumptive society that
has embraced fast fashion what I say to people is these guys have fooled me into believing that whatever standards you want to apply on the entire industry they will match or try and be better but there are real issues but like I said now do apple now do Nike I like these guys I love
they're really good I love that a 24 year old that is making less money than me or someone in their 30s can actually feel pretty good about themselves and order stuff for not a lot of money and by the way they aren't taking into account just how incredibly hard on the environment returns are
or what happens to the carbon footprint when you have to transfer stuff to a truck then to a warehouse then to a distribution center this should go straight to the home yeah I think it's very easy to that's why I wanted to bring those up anyway in any case we'll see Amazon needs to be here
for sure and will be just it's a good way for them to be doing products themselves and it's inevitable that they had to compete here because these these companies are seeing huge growth and so they have to compete and that's what Amazon does and this what they do better best in any
of all the things they do can I just give you one stat sure just one stat according to Salesforce one in five dollars spent this upcoming holiday season will be on she and her team oh that's amazing I mean these two companies are the holidays in the largest economy in the world yeah yep yep
anyway let's bring in our friend of pivot Kim Scott is a former Google and Apple executive she's also the author of a new book radical respect how to work together better welcome by the way thanks for coming on thank you so your your first book radical candor put forth this idea of
a no bullshit management philosophy it caught on with a lot of companies particularly in tech do you see a new book as a sequel because respect is different than candor because candor can sometimes not be respectful or a re-evaluation of radical candor yeah I think it's a prequel really because
radical candor is all about caring personally and challenging directly at the same time but if you don't have that core respect for someone then you're not going to care about them and you're not going to bother you're not going to waste your breath challenging them and you know respect
test two definitions one is something you have to earn I have to earn respect for my leadership skills let's say but there's another definition of respect which is this sort of unconditional respect this basic regard that we owe each other for our shared humanity and that's really what what radical
respect is about so what you write about employees needing to dress bias and bullying because radical candor can sometimes turn into that I just telling you how I feel you know that I mean yeah but you also get the ROI on speaking up explain how that works yeah I mean I think
one of the dangers of a two word title is that it's prone to misinterpretation so very often after radical candor came out I'd be working with the team and someone would charge into a room and they say in the spirit of radical candor and then they would act like a garden variety jerk
and that's not the spirit of radical candor actually radical candor is about saying what you think and at the same time showing this person that you that you care about them so you don't I think there's this tendency that we all have to believe that we have to choose between being
a really successful jerk and being a really nice but unsuccessful and that's a false choice we don't have to make that choice nice to meet you Kim I love this topic and I think a lot about it do you feel that a lot of the some of it warranted some of it probably overboard focus on
what types of words to use when you might be unconsciously creating a hostile work environment how to address people with different backgrounds it appreciates their unique lived experience that some of that gets in the way of having open honest dialogue it certainly can but it doesn't
have to I think I think that that everyone I had a I had a mentor once who said look everyone on the planet has a red word where if you say that word that person's not going to hear another word you say and if we're going to work well together we got to learn how to understand what each other's
red words are and so I think the idea is you don't have there I think we want this like list of words that are safe and not safe and there's no such list you can say stuff to me that you can't say to someone else and what what radical respect is about is learning how to get along with the
people who you're actually working with as opposed to like reducing all language some kind of least common denominator I think about this a lot and as a younger manager and CEO I used to you know pride myself in saying I'm really into candor which is this is I think was quite frankly
though most of definition of being a little bit toxic and excusing my and what I have found is that and I don't know if these are the right rules but one I have a different approach with young people I find young people need watering and when you're running the company to be really
candid sometimes is to ruin that person's weekend and to create tremendous anxiety and not be very kind I also don't I don't provide feedback on things they can't change now for example I would I and maybe I should I don't say to people you lack the presence to be in this position or you
just don't innately have the intellect I never provide feedback on something they can't change because I think it's mean I think they go home and they beat themselves up and they I mean I worry that the notion radical candor sounds like it makes sense and we're here to make money
and I do believe people I think constructive thoughtful feedback is a gift it's a gift and people appreciate it and they actually I think it when it's well done appreciate it as much or even more sometimes in compensation but there is a level of comedy of man especially with young people
where I've gone full circle I pride myself quite frankly on I know you know on not being as candid and in trying to be kinder and water them and let them grow so you're now to radical respects God now you're to this one because Kim talks about something called brutal ineffectiveness by
leadership yes explain what that is radical brutal this is all such PR marketing words sorry yeah yeah radical radical yeah I had no well radical wasn't really such a word when radical came out right and you know you look you if I were going to be more precise I probably would have called the book
compassionate candor but I don't think that would have sold as many books and radical candor's sort of redundant right anyways but but I apologize yeah long-winded way question what what are your thoughts and talk about brutal ineffectiveness which I think Scott was getting at there yeah yeah
and practice oh yeah I look I have to I mean as I was writing the book my editor would often say care personally question mark question mark question mark because it's it's it's fun to keep going out on that challenge directly dimension of of a radical candor so I'm gonna there's two two
different questions here Scott I think to your question I don't think it's like with young people you have because they're young I think it's it's about power not necessarily about age and so if you have more power in the situation whether you're the younger or the older person in the room
I think it's important to learn how to lay that power down a little bit so that you can get on a level playing field and and talk to the person I also think that you said something really important which is if it's if it's something that a person cannot change then there's no point in complaining
about it either you can work around it or you can't and if you can work around it then you try to create a situation for them where they can be successful if you can't then you fire them uh and that may seem harsh but just because they have one trait that isn't gonna work in that
situation doesn't mean they're worthless human being you help them find a place where they can be successful so care your question about brutal uh brutal ineffectiveness or brutal incompetence I think we're seeing a fair amount of that today and and uh examples too by the way you know I think
Twitter Elon Musk's ex is an excellent example of brutal incompetence uh I think that the uh you know I love a good two by two so radical respect is is about optimizing for collaboration and honoring everyone's individuality at the same time kind of a kind of uh team where the
strength of the team is the individual the strength of the individual is the team brutal incompetence is the opposite that's where you're demanding conformity and you're optimizing for coercion you're creating a a dominance hierarchy uh and and you know it seems like that would almost never happen
because most people I mean there are exceptions but most that's not most people's intention and yet so often we wind up in these brutally incompetent situations and in fact I tell stories and radical respect where I is the leader created a brutal uh situation of brutal incompetence
certainly that was not my intention but I think very often as when you start a company you think uh you know if I'm in charge all this bullshit that happens everywhere else won't happen and it will happen unless you design your systems very carefully so that it doesn't well I think
it is about people who think they know better and they've been right a lot of the time I but we're just that in tech is we've been right the first six times and therefore we're right this time yeah and there is something to knowing the right thing to do I mean I veer between it a lot I'm
like I kind of know what the right choice is um and in in tolerating other people's opinions you're like oh you're just listening to them even though you're going to do what you want right presumably because sometimes experience does matter and I assume in Elon's case and I'll take
his side his like he's always been right like him it's the way I want to do it if you don't like it get out and a lot of companies I mean Microsoft was like that for years and it worked right because it can work brutality can work yeah yes it does does work in the short term but I mean eventually
Microsoft had to change their culture in order to succeed it was going to kill them uh brutal brutal incompetence will will work until it kills you uh and and that's the problem with it if you want to build something that's going to last then you need to do better than brutal incompetence so do you
think another hack tell me if you think this um makes sense and that is in order to try and get the new answer because what you're saying is there's a lot of new answer and delivered well this can be incredibly constructive but a few wrong turns and it can go from a you know from a feature to a bug
I find with this type of quote unquote candor feedback that it really helps to write it down first to lay out your arguments and either for I always have my employees do their own self review then I forward them the review after but I make sure I'm going through stuff and making sure that I choose
my words the exact words carefully because communication is with the listener and oftentimes when you just go in and say okay these are kind of I generally have an idea of their pluses and minuses and you're talking about the compensation and maybe it's only time in a year they get feedback
which is half their entire career if they're 24 you really want to be deliberate and purposeful as opposed to just going in and winging it and I find that so the question is does it be is is writing this stuff out a tool to help find that new answer you're talking about? I think it can be if what you're managing for is to make sure that you uh that you don't say
something you later regret can be very helpful to write it down. I also think from it can be very if you want to try to force yourself to say something like if if you're managing against so radical candor is care personally challenged directly when you do do both it's radical candor
when you challenge but you don't show you care it's obnoxious aggression so writing it down can help you prevent obnoxious aggression but but jogging it down can also help you prevent ruin a sympathy which is what happens in that upper left hand quadrant where you show you care but
you forget the challenge and this is something that I would do because I I'm very prone to ruin a sympathy uh it I was raised in the south it's like really important for me to be nice and so if I was going into a meeting with someone and I was afraid I wouldn't say anything that was what I
was managing against I would jot down the three or four things I needed to tell them on a post at note and put it in my pocket not because I was going to pull the post at note out and uh and look at it but because I knew it was there and I would feel like a wimp if I didn't say the thing I
would feel like I had failed if I didn't say the thing and that was very helpful I also think there's another nuance in in terms of writing things down though is that is that radical candor the best radical candor I ever got in my whole career always happened in these impromptu two-minute
conversations like in between meetings and the performance reviews then became sort of a performance management and that was useful if I had had a series of these impromptu two-minute conversations so I think a lot of radical candor is about remembering to put your phone away put put put down
your shut your computer and have a real conversation with someone yeah you wrote in the New York Times recently that said a number of HR executives are quote dreading this election because it's going to kill productivity for months it's been like that for years now by the way in the office
it's not a new whatever it happens to be whether it's Gaza or COVID or whatever it happens to be everything at work is now so fraught gay rights everything um the AI um so how companies have shifted back and forth about handling political discussions if you could very briefly what how do they it's like it doesn't seem to get any better there's no good way to do this either shut them down which doesn't work it's omnipresent in people's minds or let it go and then you have disasters that happen
to Google many times for example lots of companies so shutting it down seems to be the move now let's just leave politics at the door kind of thing yeah and and lots of luck with that I mean you cannot control what people are going to talk about I think what what you and you can't control what people believe either those are both giant overstepped says leaders but what you can do is you can set some norms for how we're going to discuss things how we're going to treat each other we're going to
treat each other with respect we can which doesn't mean by the way that we have to agree we can disagree vehemently we can hold people accountable uh but but we still have to remember that respect to that was a lesson actually I learned when I was working at Google my whole team with the
exception of one person was super liberal and this and so we would say things assuming you know very disrespectful things and just ignore the fact that there was one guy who disagreed with us and he eventually came to me and he said you know I I feel I feel I don't feel included on the team
and that didn't mean I had to agree with him uh but like it did mean I had to treat him respectfully yeah right that's right Scott I just be curious to hear your thoughts on firing uh so firing people is the worst part of being a manager but it's absolutely part of being a
manager and I think it's important to remember with you know assuming you've given someone a lot of those impromptu conversations and you've done the right all the in writing stuff when it comes time to actually have that conversation I think it's important to remember that it's this job
doesn't suck and this person doesn't suck but this job sucks for this person and can be really helpful to imagine a job where they could do their best work because not everybody is suited for every every job but I don't think I think it's so tense it's because it's so painful to fire someone
it's tempting to say well I have to fire them because they're a worthless human being and then you're going to treat them disrespectfully and that's bad for them but it's also bad for you because that dramatically increases the likelihood that you give them every incentive to want to sue you
or whatever so you want to make sure that that even in that conversation that you're that you're having it in a way that is respectful we talked about the president Biden post-debatants and difficult conversations he's likely how thank god with the without getting into your own politics
obviously you just said what you were pretty much are but how could radical cannon radical respect be effective in the case of Biden advisors right now what how would you take it if you say oh man I want you to go and I think you should stay how would you do each of those things
that's my question so I think speaking truth to power is is hard for everybody and I think the people I know who've been most successful are those who are who are are able to step step it up and so I think the the the way that I would you want me to like roleplay this yeah I'm just very
quick advisor now so so you know I would talk about the many the many successes of this administration and I would then say you know that that debate performance is going to make us lose and if you care about the country you'll you'll step step down we need it we need a different leader for
this election okay I think I would say it very bluntly if I weren't encouraging him to stay you want me to try that yeah try that to be I'm gonna pretend that I believe that is the right thing I would say look what you know first of all you need to learn how to shut your mouth
when you're not speaking like don't catch flies sitting there and I would I would show him exactly what that what that looked like and and I would be very compassionate I mean not only you know is this sort of a venue that's not set up for anybody to succeed so I'd have some compassion for
that and I would also have some compassion for the fact that he's got a speech impediment and then I would talk about what we're going to do to make sure that he doesn't mix up his words yeah all right anything else Scott no I love this Kim I'm fascinated by it and I I think this notion
of candor is a really interesting one because the immediate sort of go to is candor's a good thing and the reality is you have to balance be candor being I think of it as a triangle there's candor there's effectiveness and sometimes the two don't go hand in hand and there's also at the end
of the day kindness because if you're trying to build an organization that provides economic security for people such that they can provide there for their family families and be happy and you're an asshole then why do you have a company at all it's really an interesting topic but I
don't know is I love I love your work and I think it's a super interesting topic anyway Kim thank you so much and again the book is radical respect how to work together better thank you so much enjoy the conversation thanks all right Scott what's your red word what's your red word my red word yeah
what drives you crazy well my safe word when someone gets really freaky with me is maybe how is that I don't know if I have a red word I don't know if it's set you off yeah no it's set you up I get less and less set off over time I have to say anyway we'll be back for wins and fails
in 2018 president trump started a trade war with China we're having a little squabble with China because we've been treated very unfairly for many many decades or actually a long time he put tariffs on goods coming into the US from China making them more expensive a lot of apparel
some food products and oddly enough American flags China retaliated hit American farmers the policies that he's putting place and the trade wars that he started have done nothing but hurt your rule America in 2020 candidate Biden criticized the trade war we're going after China in the
wrong way but then when he was elected Biden kept most of those tariffs in place and last month he expanded them on certain products in this economy on today explained president Biden's trade war explained by his chief trade warrior today explained every week day
okay Scott let's hear some wins and fails would you like to go first just second you go first care I guess a win I got sent a very lovely box remember we talked about our skincare regimen and how my how beautiful my skin is I it's a syruvy folks sent me a box of stuff and they said
we heard you met your own pivot that you could use some skincare products let syruvy fix you for it so they sent me some I already buy it so it's just kind of funny I use syruvy products and it made me laugh it made me laugh because like sometimes when we do things on the show people
send us stuff and they I always find it very funny I find it very funny anyway thank you syruvy the fail I think is this Supreme Court being so political I think they are not doing themselves any favor not trying to to to to show comedy with each other right not finding any common ground
where they could maybe do a few things together and a little you know what I mean like I think it's they are lifetime appointments they do not have to be this political and I I put that at the at the at the feet of John Roberts and it's not being able to control this group of people in some
ways speaking of radical respect radical candor they just they they should be better this group should be better and it's so not better now and I didn't always think this room for it was better but I do think on some in some cases this is the institution that has to find and I don't
share that feeling about the federal judiciary who I think are all trying and struggling in a lot of ways but the increased politicization of judges is really it feels like it's the last backstop and it doesn't feel like it's the last backstop so I'd say they really have this term has been a
failure of the Supreme Court in a really significant way fastballs are flying into the stands right yeah so my my fail is a lack of ageism I think we need more ageism on the low end I like it I think it's ridiculous that as people's prefrontal cortex has not ground as they're going through
puberty as all this evidence came in that Tim Cook has decided not to agegate his devices that Sunderpachai continues to speak in hush tones like he gives a flying fuck about the Commonwealth and continues to not agegate his platforms and radicalize young men and depress
teens I think Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg will go down his history in history as people who made more money while damaging the mental health of more young people and the fact that we didn't move earlier to recognize that 15 year olds do not have the modulation the capacity the
maturity to handle this technology is a failure now going to the flip side it is insane that just as the brain is not developed at 16 to believe that that 81 year olds can be the front line in the fight for democracy and to go into denial into surround him and to try and pretend that the fact
that he's not doing many pressers is and all this bullshit while I was with him in private and he had command of the room and he was sharp and he was engaged Jesus Christ and then to have everyone push back and say it's ageism exactly it's ageism we need agegating at the lower end and for
God's sakes we need we need agegating at the higher end 80 is too old to be in a position of this power you could not have an 80 year old be the chef at the White House be in any cabinet post you could have an 80 year old in a junior security position trying to protect the White House but
we decide to surround this person with denial and accusations of ageism and potentially threaten our ability to again be the front line we need more ageism we need to recognize biology ageism Scott goes doubles radically goes down on ageism
folks biology doesn't care what you think about ageism it just doesn't care 14 year olds cannot handle snap and social media and an 81 year old does not know how to think on his feet and command the six fleet it enough already people their brains change biology is an unforgiving foe
we need more ageism we need term limits and we absolutely need to age gate social media devices that's my fail we need more ages my win is more ageism uh I mean what was me on a boat in Greece this this was a tough weekend for me and a lot of people I know we were just so I'm just
so I'm quite frankly I'm just freaked out about it out of treasonously but anyways my my win is a couple wonderful things took my mind off this whatever this is uh team England was down one to nothing in the round of 16 knockout in the European championships and a kid named Jude
Bellingham who literally just turned 21 from rail Madrid did a bicycle kick in the 90th minute to tie it up and I mean the Galloway House Hulk just went ape ship it was a little thing oh it really is and then in minute 95 Harry Kane who plays for my my oldest son's favorite team Tottenham
put in a header it was just so and no disrespect to Slovakia they played an amazing game this was just so much fun and so wonderful and I was so happy for team England and and then if you want to feel better or for two minutes and I just I thought to myself I saw this thing
and I thought this is exactly what I needed at this exact moment go to YouTube and type in Michael Jay Fox and Coldplay and and you get to see Michael Jay Fox jamming with Coldplay it is wonderful it is just wonderful I'm not I'm not even trying to explain it because I'm sick of crying on the show
but if you want to feel better if you'd like to have just feel just feel 10% better today cold go to YouTube coldplay Michael Jay Fox yeah I would that was really lovely I spent a lot of time you know looking at fun videos there's a lot of them on my threads feed for some reason I
I tweet some I mean I thread some of them and I have to say I'm so happy like someone's like why are you so calm I go I just watched someone arrange flowers and they were like you you're ignoring the world I'm like I'm not I just like to watch people thread make flower arrangements and
it makes me happy and it was interesting because you know right after that debate everyone was in a free fall promotion themselves and I just by 10 the next morning I'm like this is it this is what we got let's move on I think I'll go watch some flower arrangement I'm not ignoring it people
I'm telling you you've got to get in the right frame of mind to beat it right yeah you can't be in the depths of despair at all times you just can't kill I am because it's like this is our this is our world now so like do something about it otherwise you know you can't live in pure horror at
all times although I think you should be worried at the same time anyway I'm glad I'm glad that that Michael J. Fox thing is utterly worth watching in any case we want to hear from you send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit
a question for the show we're called 85551 pivot okay Scott that is the show we'll be back on Friday with more uh Scott will you read us out today's show was produced by Larry name and Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin earning her Todd engineered this episode thanks also to Drew
Bros milcivario and Kate Gallagher nishat curwa is box media is executive producer of audio make sure you subscribe to the show every listen podcast thanks for listening to pivot from New York magazine and box media you can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care have a great rest of the week.
Support for the show comes from service now the AI platform for business transformation you've heard the big hype around AI the truth is AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into.
Service now is the platform that puts AI to work for people across your business removing friction and frustration for your employees super charging productivity for your developers providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier AI built into a single platform you can use right now that's why the world works with service now visit servicenow.com
slash AI for people to learn more. Support for pivot comes from green light as your kids get older some things about parenting get easier okay nothing does i'm in my second phase of parenting with new younger kids but one of the things that's gotten easier is that you just do it better and you
figure out things and one thing that i figured out is that i should talk more about money with my kids my younger kids because i didn't talk about it enough with my older kids i'm doing that now actually but they should have learned a lot this stuff a lot earlier to understand where money is
so when it comes to the money talk green light wants to make that easier too and i need all the help i can get green light is a debit card and money app made for families parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on their kids spending and saving the green light app also includes a
chores feature i do that analog right now for a four-year-old but i will over time get her online at some point where you can set up a one-time or recurring chores customize your family's knees and reward kids with allowance and for a job well done i think it sets kids on the path for financial
success that they understand where money's coming from you can sign up for green light today and get your first month free when you go to green light.com slash pivot that's green light.com slash pivot to try green light for free green light dot com slash pivot