¶ Intro / Opening
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¶ Tragic Weekend Shootings And Rob Reiner
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. How you doing, Scott? I'm doing great. Thanks. Weird weekend of shootings and killings. pretty horrible stuff. We usually banter here, but I think we should just get right to it, don't you think? Yeah, I think so.
Yes, we want to briefly acknowledge the horrific events of gun violence over the weekend. On Saturday, two people were killed and nine were injured at a shooting at Brown University. And on Sunday, at least 15 people were killed in a shooting at a Hanukkah celebration. Bondi Beach in Australia. At the time of the taping, authorities were still looking for the brown shooter.
The Bondi Beach shooters have been identified as a father and son. A bystander whose refugee parents had just arrived from Syria wrestled a gun from one of the alleged attackers during the Bondi Beach shooting. As if that violence weren't enough, director and actor Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle were found dead in their L.A. home on Sunday. supposedly by, apparently, according to lots of reports, their son, their youngest son is being held in this.
what it looks like, a murder. Donald Trump, of course, had to weigh in on this tragedy, posting on True Social a little while ago. Rob Reiner had tortured and struggling, but once very talented movie director and comedy stars passed away together with his wife, Michelle, reportedly due to the anger he caused others through.
his massive unyielding incurable affixions with a mind crippling disease known as Trump derangement syndrome. I can't believe he wrote this, but once again, of course I can. So he said the raging obsession has driven people crazy. And obvious paranoia is reaching new heights as the Trump administration surpassed all goals and expectations with greatness. And then he said they should rest in peace.
He's a terrible, terrible son of a bitch. Yeah, but I just can't wait for the right to be as inflamed by the notion that anyone was dancing on Charlie Kirk's grave. But this will just be Donald being Donald, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, just what a heinous piece of shit. Let's start with the shootings. Just for personally, Amanda went to Brown.
and knows the area very well. It's a very open campus, she was telling me. It's sort of very peaceful. I've been there a number of times with her in the area where it was taking place. Nobody knows why this... particular, well, because people have guns, but reasoning behind. The one in Bondi Beach was horrific, except for that one bystander who was just, the video of it was astonishing that this guy had a long gun and this guy, he was a big
guy who went after another big guy, and the father ended up dying. The son, I believe, is still living. Again, these people were peaceably getting together on a holiday, which was the first night of Hanukkah, which we celebrated last night. I don't know what to say, Scott. Just the whole thing is just violence. Yeah, it's the things that strike me about Brown is that.
¶ Deconstructing Violence And Rising Hate
Just as we overprotect our kids offline and underprotect them online, I think campuses unfortunately have become, they're supposed to be some of the safest places in the world physically and some of the most dangerous places intellectually.
and unfortunately we flipped the script we've decided that words are violence and i think created sort of these very fragile a very fragile youth not all but too many and at the same time guns on campus and we don't know they don't know who the shooter is but generally speaking what will happen is they will attempt to politicize it the left and the right uh unfortunately and
Chances are, we don't know who it is, chances are there's three dimensions to this type of violence. It's usually a young man who's not connecting to work, family, or relationships, or someone who went online and got... radicalized and then had access to guns and then to use that as a bridge to australia this is the first mass shooting they've had in 27 years they have one every they have one every 27 years we have one every
27 hours. And that's not a lie. We have 1.2 mass shootings a day. So, and then, you know, I can't help but look, I'm obviously... think a lot about Israel and the Jewish population. There are 2.7 billion Christians, 2.1 billion Muslims, 1.4 billion. Indians, 1.3 billion Chinese, 355 million Americans. But the hate towards 15 million Jews.
It was 15 million in 1939. By 1945, Hitler had taken it down to 9 million. It's taken 80 years to get back to 15 million. But because of the hatred focused on these 15 million, 0.2% of the world's population. Paris is canceling their New Year's events. I mean, this is really, this is impacting everyone. And the only silver lining here is who you brought up, Ahmad.
Ahmed Alamad, I think his name is. I apologize if I'm getting that wrong. He was a fruit vendor? Yeah, he owns a fruit store, two sons. And I just think it was so wonderful on so many dimensions that it was a Muslim. Because what I find, you know, a lot of debates recently, men, people always want to go to this reductive, well, it's men against women or it's Muslims against Jews. No, it's illiberal primitive thought versus liberal enlightened thought.
And that's who the battle is between. But I find, and also to personalize this because I never missed an opportunity to talk about myself, I was very upset about what had happened in Australia. And I thought about putting a Star of David in my window and I went out to try and find some sort of neon light or an Israeli flag. And someone I live with said, are you fucking crazy? Are you fucking crazy?
That was their view. We live in London. We live on a busy street. And this person is like, we have kids in our house. You're going to put a symbol of Judaism or Israel in our window. And what I would ask everybody is. And today, and this is going to be somewhat of an inflammatory statement, people are down with Judaism and Jewishness today because people like to feel sorry for Jews.
But it'll soon return to what I would call a series of micro-enablements around what is going on here. And what I would ask is, is there any other group in the world that consists of 15 million or 0.2% of the population? that cannot celebrate their holidays in peace and without fear right now.
That is what it means to be Jewish right now. Well, I think you're talking about liberalism. I think a lot of people have been—we don't know what's happening in Brown, by the way. We still don't understand what's going on there. Yeah, but they don't have a suspect. They don't have a suspect. But most, as you said, most of these killings are about illiberalism and about not letting people be who they are, right? Whoever they happen to be. And I think it's really, it's sort of like the...
I mean, Australian gun violence. My nephew lives near Bondi Beach, actually right near it. You know, if you've ever been there, and I've been there, and I think you have too, it's a beautiful place. It has such a nice feel to it. I would say the more liberal part of it.
Sydney, right? I would, you know, just kind of everyone is just letting people be who they are, essentially. And for these two, you know, being a father and son is even worse in a lot of ways because his father obviously radicalized his child. And it's just like, it's sickening to me that anyone cannot. gather, right? And I agree with you. I mean, the rise in anti-Semitism is just so disturbing and so indicative of the rise of this kind of easy hatred.
kind of thing. And I think, again, you don't want to link these things, all of them together, but what the president wrote about Rob Reiner, who just was slashed to death, allegedly by his son, who clearly had... If you follow it even slightly, I saw that movie many years ago called Being Charlie, which the son wrote and the father directed, obviously, to help his son get along. It was about his addiction and really isolation, right?
just like this this is the answer the violent the violent answer and so you know you can't Sometimes there's nothing you can do about, there's something you can do about drug addiction, but drug addiction and it seems like schizophrenia of some sort. But to take, like the... the ease at which people accept all these things, especially around anti-Semitic.
behavior is really, I think we're at this inflection, but we either go one way or the other. I don't know. We do have a menorah in our window. My wife is Jewish. My kids, my young kids are Jewish. And we also have a snowman and we have a Christmas tree. And I didn't even think about that, Scott. Like we just put it in the window. And, you know, I wouldn't think of taking it.
but you made me think, of course. But it's so disheartening, especially as we move into the holiday season. And again, last night was the first night of Hanukkah, you know, and my kids are so excited about it. Hanukkah and everything around it. It's stomach churning, actually. I do think there's a difference between the Brown and Australian tragedies and what happened to the Reiners. I think my understanding of the Reiners is that it was a...
a young man who's really struggling and it's tragic, but I, you know, and it represents a warranted discussion about drug addiction. But what I find. so disturbing disheartening is that all bigotry is hate but there are different types of hate and most bigotry comes in the form of i don't like these people i don't like the way they live their lives i don't like their food
I don't like their norms and their customs, and I'm going to discriminate against them. I'm going to sequester them from jobs. I don't want them in my neighborhood. I don't want them to have the same rights as me. The discrimination or the bigotry against Jews I find especially dangerous because it's not, I don't like your food or I don't like the way, you know, I don't like your customs. It's that I think...
You have come together to form a conspiracy that is purposely trying to oppress me and that I need to take offensive action, not sequester you from opportunities. but legitimize and create cloud cover for offensive violence against you no matter where you are. And also, folks on campus, congratulations. When you're chanting, globalize the intifada, all right, that's what's happened here.
The Intifada has been globalized. Scott, I don't think you can blame those students for these people. I think it's all connected. I think that when people legitimize this type of hate speech and it becomes normalized. I think it creates cloud cover for this type of behavior. Perhaps. I feel like anti-Semitism has been around for centuries. Okay, and so has enablement of it.
Right. Well, yeah, people shouldn't be. But, you know, this is the problem with all these things is talking the way like where does it. What do you do about all this hate speech around everywhere, around everything? Like it's so it's so steeped into our world now and so available. And again, you know, it's no it's really interesting. You know, Australia just.
quashed social media for kids under 16. To me, that's what globalizes this. I think these sentiments have been around since the beginning of time for some reason. And it creates this worldwide ability to just... just hate across anyway there's no these are all tragedies i don't mean they're linked together in any way but in in many ways they it's sort of this acceptance of violence against people and especially in this country and for australia to have as you said a shooting is really
Right. And so then you worry about that country in that. The thing is, guess what? Like New Zealand, like other where they had a terrible shooting, which was, I think, against a mosque in that case, they're going to. do something about it and shut it down. They're going to shut down guns. They will actually take action as a country while we do not, which is really, that's my guess, correct, don't you think? Probably there'll be some. They will, I mean, they did.
They have. For example, it might not have been 15 people. It might have been 150 had they not banned assault rifles. Right. If that father-son team had had AR-15s and not single bolt action and shotguns. It might have been 150 people. Right. Exactly. And the fact that it happens every... This will rattle Australia to its core. And they'll do something about it. We're going to talk about Brown until... tomorrow, and there'll be another one. Brown will get more attention because it's an ivy.
So it's more kind of sensational or it'll get more media attention because, quite frankly, a lot of media went to Brown. But there will be a mass shooting tomorrow in America. And the next day and the next day. It's like that Onion headline, America claims that the problem can't be solved in the only nation this problem exists. And this notion that we live in a democracy, we don't. We live...
We live in a country with a passive majority that is weaponized by a well-funded and organized special interest groups. And probably number four or five now, but still very popular, is the NRA. And 90% of Americans now believe in some sort of safe and sane gun regulation. They do. And we can't get it through. It's repulsive. It's repulsive. But our condolences go out to the people in Bondi Beach and at Brown and obviously the Reiner family. I'm going to be in Bondi in two weeks.
Bondi. In two weeks, oh, you are. It's a beautiful place. It's a beautiful place. It's a tragedy.
¶ OpenAI's Market Position And Value
Anyway, we should move on to the news. But first, Sam Altman, this is such a weird draft. Sorry, let me just switch to Code Red at OpenAI. It's a weird altitude change. Yeah. Yeah, which he implemented to improve chat GPT against competition after the launch of its GPT-5-2 model. He's going to exit Code Red. I don't believe Code Red. By the way, speaking of which, Rob Reiner, let me just say. Maybe just one more thing about Rob Reiner. What an incredible...
artist this guy left behind. Besides being on All in the Family, he did A Few Good Men. He did Stand By Me. He did The Princess Bride. He did When Harry Met Sally. It goes on and on and on. And then, personally, his impact, the reason we have... marriage. It started in California. Rob Reiner was one of the major people around it. Same thing with preschool for kids.
I don't care how much the Trump people hate this guy or hated this guy. What an incredibly effective progressive he was. And also a beautiful filmmaker. Some of my favorite films. And Code Red. Code Red is an important part of A Few Good Men. Did you call the gold red? Also, you and I were on a call with Rob Reiner just a couple weeks ago, and they seemed very civic-minded. Yeah.
Yeah, they were trying to figure out something to boycott around immigration. He was focused in on immigrants being abused by the Trump administration. He was, you know, he's just a classic. The guy he played on All in the Family, Mike Stivitz, he was that guy, right? It was sort of, that was him.
in many ways. Anyway, speaking of Code Red, which that is one of my favorite movies of all time. I love every bit about it, but the direction is so critical for her being so good. It's with Tom Cruise, Demi Moore. Jack Nicholson, obviously. Oh, he did The Sure Thing. That was him? Yeah, he's an astonishing artist and also an actor. Oh, my God, he did Misery. That's an amazing film.
Wow, what a career. He had a run from in the 80s to the 90s that was like one friggin' hit after the next. It's crazy. And important movies that last the test of time. Like, that's what it is. go back to all those movies, and they were so expertly directed. The American President, remember that one? A single Michael Douglas as president. This is Spinal Tap. Oh, Spinal Tap. Oh, how could I leave that out? Plus, he just released the second one recently. And just an astonishing talent. My favorite.
He had a lot of roles over the years in various things, mostly comedies, but he was in The Wolf of Wall Street as the accountant. Yeah. And my favorite line. Didn't he play his father? I'm not sure. He was doing the accounting. He goes, I'm not sure he was his father, but he goes, prostitutes take credit cards. And then the line was, yeah, the expensive ones. It was the way he said prostitutes, like he's screaming and then he goes, prostitutes take credit cards. And it was just.
just fantastic man anyway um Okay, we'll move on to Code Red at OpenAI. That's the reference he's using there. Sam Alton says he expects OpenAI to exit Code Red, which he implemented to improve chat GPT against competition after the launch of its GPT-5. 0.2 model. He implemented it because of all the competition, especially from Google's Gemini. Altman said the release of the Gemini 3 models had less of an impact on the company than they originally feared.
We'll see. In other open AI news, the company will end a compensation party that required employees to work at the company for at least six months before their equity vests. So what's happening here? I don't know. I think they're panicking. I think they heard Keira Swisher keep comparing them to Netscape. Oh, yeah, I should say. And I think that analogy is becoming more and more apt by the day. Yeah. And it's an incredible company.
The question is, can they maintain momentum from 500 billion? And the thing that struck me, Kara, was I saw that SpaceX leaked a rumor that they're thinking about going public. Yeah, and then pretended they didn't, yeah. And that they threw a number out there, who knows how real it is, at a trillion and a half dollar pricing. Right now, they say they're raising money or selling shares at about 800 billion. OpenAI is at 500 billion now.
They're both right now about the same revenue level, except SpaceX is growing much, much slower. SpaceX went from 13 billion last year. They're projected to do 15 this year. It's not growing that fast. Yeah. Well, there's only so much space, right? But let's try it. But the differences in terms of moats and defensibility and sustainability, and that is the amazing thing about a digital business is it can scale incredibly fast. The downside is that it can be disrupted.
almost as fast and that is the reason why spacex at a lower growth rate in a similar revenue is trading at two to three or sixty to two hundred percent more than a company that's growing much faster, OpenAI, is because it is very unlikely in two years someone else is going to have 90% of space launch market share.
The ability, and that's why Amazon, I think,'s value is so enduring. We're also focused on digital, but the reality is if you can put in place warehouses, 747s, trucking, space launch vehicles. Atoms are more defensible than bits. Interesting observation. I like that. Well, it's harder to do. It's harder to scale up.
but it would make sense. It's more defensible. It just struck me that SpaceX is trading it more. It's growing much slower, same revenue, and is much more valuable than OpenAI because people realize if you were to say, okay, One of these two firms is going to decline by 80% share in the next 24 months. OpenAI or SpaceX, who would you think that happened to? OpenAI. Yeah, everybody. 100%. That said, I have to say, I still use ChatDB more, right? And Gemini just...
It's a great product. It's imposed upon me by Google, because I use Google, right? I don't go to jail. Did you love Explorer? Did you love Microsoft Explorer? Netscape was a better browser. I agree, but it's only, well, right now I'm using it because of this, because Riverside, but I usually use Safari. Google, one of the things that's related, speaking of...
¶ Disney's AI Content Protection Strategy
defensible businesses, Google has removed videos with Disney characters after being hit with a cease and desist letter from the company saying it's AI infringes on its copyrighted content on a massive scale. The complaint focuses on unauthorized AI generated videos and images of Disney characters, particularly unused.
The move comes shortly after Disney struck a deal with OpenAI. It picked its winner, right, as we discussed last week. I went and called a lot of people after this because a lot of people had sort of mixed feelings on Disney doing this, like they're giving in. essentially. Seems to me, I think they learned a lot from social media and everything else that to stay out of it was a mistake early on. And so they wanted to pick one and then fight the others. And so...
I don't necessarily, everyone's like, oh, you're giving away your seed corn, you shouldn't do this. Like, I don't quite know what Disney would do otherwise, right? I think making an investment, which they did in OpenAI, gives them a stake in the game, right? They're not going to. get to make a similar investment in Google.
It gives them an ability to have some insight into how this is going and how it works the way eventually all the companies did on YouTube. If you remember Philippe Dallmann, that really terrible executive. sued YouTube, and it just didn't work out. It just didn't work out the way they did it.
But rather, they'd rather find a legal way to have this work out because eventually they're going to have to strike deals with all of them. And I think being both aggressive and non-aggressive is probably the right way to go.
I don't feel like Disney had another choice. And then it could say to OpenAI, whether when I was able to do this, you know, if someone's doing something hinky with, you know, Princess Jasmine and the snowman from... frozen you better get it done you better get it off kind of thing so i just feel like they kind of had to do it and it's the best way to learn on this stuff and using open ai probably they're more cooperative than a google might be um
But, you know, and it's going to hinder all these. Every single company is going to have a deal like this, presumably. I don't know. But all of them will have them with all of them like they did with YouTube in the end. I think you're exactly right. I think I think this is a good move for both of them. And the key here is that— There was criticism. There was a lot of criticism. But right now, Disney doesn't have the capital, both human or financial capital, to build their own LLM.
And they want to experiment. And the proof is in the pudding. And that is, I'd love to see the terms of this deal. If I were Disney, I'd want to make sure. We're going to experiment, but you do not have in any way long-term rights, AI rights around these characters. It's a 12-month thing. We'll see how it's working for both of us. But I go back to the same thing, and that is you want...
The deepest pocketed companies in the world that are creating the most shareholder value are these AI-centered companies. You want as many as possible because you want Disney to have the ability in 12 months to go to Gemini. or to go to Llama, or even to go to one of the Chinese players and say, all right, you've seen what OpenAI can do with our characters. Our two- or three-year relationship will be up in six months. Who's got the biggest check for us?
And otherwise, if there's only going to be one bidder in AI, and the arms race sort of connotes that they all sort of believe there might be one player. You want as many bidders as possible. Otherwise, you're going to further leak human capital from the creative community, the Los Angeles community, and from Disney shareholders and from consumers to the one player in OpenAI. I'm for, I hope that...
a lot of the content creators get together and quite frankly, partner with the number two and just play them off against each other and always make sure that there's a really healthy ecosystem. They didn't do it at YouTube. Do you remember when they, I remember when SNL went on. on YouTube, you know, those movie shorts. It got onto YouTube and YouTube did everything possible to take it down. And I remember...
YouTube didn't. The company did. I think SNL did. NBC. I remember being with NBC executive. I'm like, let it stay there. What are you talking about? Everyone's talking about it now, right? And they just were like, we have to take it down. They're stealing our things. I'm like...
Well, make a deal with them. I think the way they handled it at the beginning was something somewhat evil I did when I was running my All Things D conferences. We had Philippe Downman when he was suing YouTube and also Eric Schmidt on, and I put them back to back with each other. They're on stage. And Eric Schmidt, Philip Downey wanted to talk to Eric Schmidt, and Eric ran into the bathroom. He didn't want to talk to him. Eventually, they settled. But it just seemed to me the wrong...
approach at the time, even though, let me say, I think Google was fast and loose with that content in order to build its business. I think they stole everything. Well, Google wasn't compensating anybody back then. No, they weren't. And I think they were stealing. YouTube's now compensating people. I think they were stealing. And by the time it was too late and they should have done deals with them. But anyway, we'll move on. Okay, Scott, when we come back, Oracle has its own code red moment.
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Happy Christmas, Scott. Is that what they say? Happy holidays, Kara. Happy holidays. Can we say Christmas again? Of course. Anyway, happy Hanukkah, happy everything. Have you seen these videos of, I don't know, it makes me so happy and it's so wrong. Have you seen these videos of of grown men dressing up as Grinch and terrorizing little children. Oh, no. No, there was one at the Christmas fair the other day where we used to live, and kids love the Grinch.
Oh, no. Were these trying to terrorize kids? This is videos of three-year-olds being traumatized for life by a Grinch character breaking into the house and stealing gifts and children. And it is so wonderful and it's so wrong. Oh, no. So I was at a bar and a prostitute walked in and ordered a glass of wine. And the bartender said, what did you ask Santa for? And she said... $30, just like everyone else. That's not even funny. Never mind. You got to up your Christmas whore.
jokes. Anyway, as I said, Oracle's having his own... He's such an asshole. Santa knows where the naughty girls are and he doesn't tell anyone else. That's true.
¶ Oracle's AI Bets And Media Mergers
Look at Code Red Walnut, Code Red. The company's stock fell 14% last week. Ouch, down 45% from a September high, which was far too high anyway, after the latest earnings showed soaring capex and rising debt tied to its massive AI build-out. All kinds of bets. There was also a report claiming several Oracle data centers tied to its $300 billion open ad contract have been delayed.
really. Oracle denies the delays, said it remains confident in its ability to meet its obligations in future expansion plans. Ooh, Oracle went a little far on this, I thought. Didn't you? I don't know. It's also related. There's a paramount factor in this. The hostile bid for Warner Brothers Discovery is backed in part by billions from Oracle co-founder Larry Ellis. But he isn't guaranteeing it the way Elon had a guarantee.
is purchase of Twitter. Warner Brothers Board is concerned that he didn't do this and plans to contribute equity through a trust. It's kind of in a Geechee way. If he's that rich, he should just put up the money.
Paramount is calling concerns about its financing absurd. I mean, obviously, he's rich. That's true. But if he's that rich, you should personally guarantee it. If you're Warner Brothers, are you right to be concerned about Big Daddy not giving his personal guarantee? I don't know, Scott. Both of these things. I mean, obviously.
The stock is down rather significantly, so he's not quite as rich, but he's still massively wealthy. Yeah, I think if it just comes down to money, and it probably will, I think that... ellison probably i mean there's a bunch of there's a bunch of play here one um so first off the lesson here and i would tell this to anybody listening and i was told this at a very young age and i've lived up to this and you never sign a personal guarantee
Just never. You don't know what'll happen. And it's a way how smart people, it's a way, it's how smart rich people go broke. You don't know, you don't know what can happen. Never, I have never done this. And I would suggest anyone listening to this podcast. Never sign a personal guarantee. And just so people know, Elon did this in the Twitter fight, but go ahead. I think it's just let Elon do it.
Ellison has more money personally than anyone involved because he's been selling stock and he personally is super wealthy, not only in stock but in cash. But also Netflix is a bit constrained too because Netflix is... debt evita ratio they they have and they they only have a certain they have cash flow they manage against that 18 billion dollars a year so i think if it's pure if these guys go really crazy ellison can go crazier and not only that
Ellison's about to die. He's an old man. So does he really care? That's not according to him. He has a longevity institute. He's going to live forever. Yeah, but Ted Sarandos is around for another 40 years. Yeah. Larry Ellison is not. Yeah. And so, quite frankly, I think Larry Allison is more likely to do what a lot of old men do, and that is make an irrational move. Yeah, interesting.
That's interesting. But I'm saying the Warner board is using it as a concern. What do you think? You've been in boardrooms. They want, of course, when you're a... have a scarce asset, part of the negotiation is the certainty of close and the certainty of financing. So whenever I bought a house, what's really fun to do is show up with an all cash offer.
Right? But most people can't do that. Most people have put in contingencies around finding a mortgage. And sometimes, like a really weak offer, someone says, I have contingencies. Not only do I need to find financing, I need to sell the house I'm in now to buy this house. So if he was willing to show up and say, I'm the third wealthiest man in the world and I'm signing a personal guarantee, then disco, right? So they're going to want you to do as much as possible.
Yeah, I don't. Just as a general rule, you never sign a personal guarantee. But is that a good excuse for the Warner Brothers board to say, why hasn't he? Well, Ted Sarandos isn't signing a personal guarantee. No, I get it. But the Ellisons are making a big deal of their Trump affiliations, how rich they are. But you know what I mean?
Everybody has their own little move, essentially. But Ted Sarandos is not buying it. Netflix is, right? And they've made an offer with stock and cash that is guaranteed, presumably. You know what? I feel like every minute I'm like, Paramount's going to get it. Netflix is going to get it. Paramount's going to get it. I know, that's what I feel. I'm having a tough time handicapping this one. I think Paramount has to get it. Netflix does not have to.
It's an important thing for it to get, but it's not a must-have. Yeah, but you know what it got me thinking? What? Kara, I actually think in the next 90 days...
¶ Disney's Future And Media Mergers
If not, maybe not 90. I always got the timing wrong. I think Disney's going to be put in play. Oh, yeah. That's what we talked about. And the likely buyer there will be Apple. I mean, keep in mind, whoever bulks up here, whether it's Paramount bulking up or Netflix bulking up, where does that leave Disney? Where does that leave Apple?
Where does that leave YouTube? It leaves them less bulky. Yes, I brought that up with Disney executives. They're not commenting. But I agree. They're not big enough. And by the way, Disney stock, that would be the biggest.
Take private in history because Disney's like 200. They'd have to go up to like 300. That'll be hard to get through the government, period, in whatever government it happens to be. But Disney, do you know where their stock is? Their stock's the same place it was 10 years ago. Yeah, I know. And talk about IP. You want to see people salivate over IP. Right.
I mean, Darth Vader to Moana. Moana Live is coming out. Those parks. You want to talk about, we were just talking about. It was Zootopia, by the way. It continues to win in many ways. And you want to talk about a moat around atoms versus bits. The park. Jesus Christ. If I said to you, okay, one of these things is down by 50% in three years, it's either Netflix subscribers or park attendance, what would you pick? Of course, Netflix. Well, I don't know. People love their Netflix.
They do love them netbooks. And it also has the Taylor Swift era's documentary on it. No, that's on Disney. That's on Disney. That's on Disney. I think the parks are literally the crown jewel in the Disney portfolio. I mean, keep in mind, they were buying land in Florida for the better part of a decade under false LLCs to amass millions and millions of acres. They're very clever people. But let me go back to the Oracle stock.
It's really falling. And like this, these commitments they have are massive. Okay. But okay. Meanwhile, though, it's, it's, it's flat over the past year. So, okay. It's back to where it was in June. So we always talk, it's dropped dramatically from a massive spike. And the head fake here was Sam Altman and Larry Ellison and announcing a quote unquote.
framework for a $300 billion purchase in Compute, I would love to see the terms of that contract. I think that was nothing but a joint press release. It's like when famous people date each other, their publicists are really dating each other.
This is, it's like, they're not fucking. Their publicists are fucking and thought it would be a great press release to say, you know, Chris Hemsworth is dating, you know. I'll tell you, of all the stocks, though, if they get hit, Oracle will be the one that gets hit the most. Oh, it's already been hit pretty well. It's down, what is it down, 40% in a month or something like that? But it has a great core business. Anyways, I think all of media now...
is in play. And whoever ends up owning this, the other guys are severely diminished. If Paramount doesn't get this, they've got to go shopping. They've got to get sold. And then there's, keep in mind, the player we're not talking about, I think Apple has invested enough in Apple TV Plus that it can't let it just die. Right. And it's a distant.
fifth now, but it's owned by a company worth $3.5 trillion. Well, the new CEO will have to, this isn't going to be a Tim Cook one. It's going to be the new CEO making a big move, right?
presumably, whoever that happens to be. And also, it'll have to be a different CEO than Bob Iger. He won't do this one. I could see an activist coming in. He's going to retire soon. I don't know. It is just going to be, whoever gets this, it will inspire a lot of... chess playing by the other players because of Paramount, if Netflix isn't, if you want to talk about all of a sudden the Paramount acquisition looks like they dramatically overpaid the day Netflix, HBO closes.
Paramount Plus just looks fucked. They look fucked. And they have to join mob up with someone and there's no mobbing. And because I think Disney either goes to Apple or it goes, you know, if Netflix doesn't get this, you can see Netflix and Apple, I mean, Disney coming together too. Yeah, that would be a merger.
Because I think Netflix is- Another thing the government probably wouldn't let happen. 400 and Disney's at 200. But we're now in a point where the unthinkable in terms of size of acquisition- Disney used to be too big to acquire. That's no longer true. Yeah. Get ready, Elizabeth Warren. You're going to have some stuff happening. I mean, Christ. My mind's just blown here that these things, some of the biggest, everything now, it's technology and the seven dwarves. Everything's being run.
and dictated by the wealth or paper loss is or who would have thought that the likelihood that paramount would buy um Warner Brothers would be based on Oracle's stock price. Right. It's just because it's a rich kid and his daddy. This makes no economic sense. But Oracle's ability to position themselves as a number two infrastructure player is the fulcrum of the acquisition of Batman.
I know. It's crazy. Remember many years ago, you don't remember. My mind is blown, Kara. My mind is blown. When AT&T was doing that Comcast thing, I said they're not still not, none of them are going to be big enough. Years ago, I said this, they're not going to be big enough. And so all these antitrust people are going to have a hard time. And don't count the Roberts out.
You don't become billionaires in Philadelphia unless you have killed a lot of people and are really smart. And you're really nice people, too. You're very friendly for killers. Anyway. All right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. Donald Trump's new AI executive order. Check your home with blinds.com DIY or let us install Free design consultation. Plus free samples and free shipping.
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From AI and classrooms to the future of media, New York Magazine digs into the stories, ideas, and people shaping culture today. And right now, when you subscribe or give an annual subscription, you'll get a free New York Magazine beanie. is the gift that informs, entertains, and keeps on giving all year long. Head to nymag.com slash gift to get started.
Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher. And this week on my podcast on with Kara Swisher, I'm interviewing one of my favorite people, Rachel Maddow. We talk with the MS Now host about her new narrative podcast about the incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two. You may think you know that story, but you actually don't. And we also break down the parallels between Japanese internment and Trump's mass deportation policies. Take a listen.
in the regime right now that is terrorizing people on the basis of race explicitly they're gonna have to answer for it and they may have to answer for it just to their own families and to God but if we do this right they're gonna have to answer in court as well The full conversation is out now and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Scott. We're back.
¶ Trump's AI Executive Order Debated
President Trump just signed an AI executive order to effectively neuter individual state laws regulating artificial intelligence. The order directs the DOJ to sue states and overturn laws that do not support, quote, the United States global AI dominance.
also directing federal regulators to withhold funds for broadband and other projects if states keep their laws in place child safety laws are exempt from this order at least for now the order which has sparked opposition on both sides of the aisle is likely to be challenged in court on the grounds that it's idiotic that only
Only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Trump has been complaining about a patchwork of state AI laws. So have I, by the way, Donald. But do you think he and David Sachs, who really pushed this, will actually push to get a federal law? No, I do not. This is all about politics and not about policies. It's an issue dividing Republicans, too. Governor Ron DeSantis called this executive order a big subsidy to big tech, and he's right. Marjorie Taylor Greene's against it.
of people on both sides against it. And frankly, it's going to be stopped in courts. And that's the problem. It's that they don't want to pass federal laws that would make sense. And instead, they just want to play politics of power here so that they don't get
They want to stop all regulation is what they want, but they're not interested in regulation. They're interested in stopping all regulation, which is not the same thing, which is politics and not policy. So this is going to be going to go into court and then. By November, Trump's not going to be able to do any of this crap. And he's on the downward hill so obviously that none of this is going to work. So sorry, David Sachs. Good try, though. Good try. Yeah, I think you're right. And that is.
The government is a big fan of states' rights when it comes to gun control or bodily autonomy, but all of a sudden they've decided we need mandatory federal legislation around or regulation around AI. Which we don't have. And this is the mandatory federal regulation they'll have. Dick. They won't have anything. They won't have dick. They won't have dick. Because effectively, the Trump administration's ability to send secret police into cities...
And the entire economy is a giant bet on AI. And so they don't want any regulation that gets in the way of their thoroughbreds running. And you're going to see, in my view, and this is one of my predictions for 26, you're going to see what... is positioned as an investment but effectively will be a bailout of these guys in the form of government-backed debt to continue this crazy champagne and cocaine disco.
party of data centers and chip acquisition. But essentially, the Trump administration has said, I don't care if it means leaking capital from the 490 of the S&P 500 to the 10, he's all in on AI. And the last thing they're going to let happen or they're going to try and let happen is any sort of regulation. And it's insane that we're not looking at synthetic relationships. It's insane that we're not looking at. Well, some states are, not our government.
But not our federal government. Some states are starting to do this. And that's why they want to stop it. Well, that's right. And they're claiming that it's that we need one unified. Having a unified operating system and something as complicated as AI across the 50 states makes sense. The problem is that's just a false flag. They just want no regulation. That's right. That is correct. That is correct. These people, remember that Bond movie, The World is Not Enough?
That's what they are. I just remember the Bond girls. Who was the Bond girl in it? I don't remember who it was, but in any case. Oh, it was Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Oh, Sophie Marceau. Oh, Denise Richards was in it too. No, no, no. That was later. That's with Daniel Craig. Denise Richards. No, no. She's in the one with the bomb. Oh, really? Yeah. Remember, she's a nuclear physicist. I don't know. Best names ever. Holly Goodhead.
She was Christmas. She was some Merry Christmas or something like that was her name. Anyway. So excited about the next bond. Anyway, yeah, this is what we feel. This is bullshit, David Sachs. Sorry, but good try. Good try. It's not going to work. It's going to get sucked up into court. And then your big daddy Trump is going to be on the downhill slide. So you're trying your best to get.
something happening before that, but you're not going to make fetch happen. It's going to get stopped in the court and it has bipartisan support from at some point they're going to, the Congress is going to reach down and feel its balls and stop all this nonsense. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.
President Trump said many wild things this year, but one of the wildest was on Pod Force One, where he talked about this multi-day aptitude test he took at the age of like 11 or 12. Your son is brilliant at music. He'd be an incredible musician. Alas. This is not what my father wanted to hear.
Right out of college, Trump tried producing Broadway shows. And he has taste. You can argue about whether it's good taste. But Trump loves music and movies and architecture, LOL. And he's been using his time in office. to shape popular culture. The culture was already moving right. It was embracing the trads and the chads. And so in the waning days of 2025, we're looking at how the counterculture, long the province of lefties and hippies.
moved swiftly and sharply right. And we're going to ask if it'll ever move back. Today Explained drops every weekday. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm tackling the topic that stresses everyone out this time of year. How to survive the holidays without destroying your bank account. From gift-giving guilt to those limited edition holiday temptations, I'm breaking down practical strategies to save your wallet while...
showing up for the people you love. I'll share real numbers on how much the average person overspends during the season, smart swaps that don't feel cheap, and how to set boundaries without being the Grinch. Plus, I'm exposing the marketing tactics designed to make you panic buy and revealing the framework
for creating a holiday budget that actually works. Get ready for an honest conversation about staying financially sane during the most expensive time of the year. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash yourrichbff. Some people would tell you the iPhone 4 was the best iPhone ever.
But there's almost no denying that it was the most dramatic iPhone ever. It was leaked in a bar in California before it ever came out. And then after it came out, there was such a huge scandal that Steve Jobs himself had to hold an event and address it.
This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology. We're talking about the whole history of the iPhone 4, what it meant, why it was so chaotic, and whether it really is the best iPhone ever. All that on Version History, wherever you get podcasts.
¶ Measles, TV Shows, And Vaccination Fail
Okay, Scott, some wins and fails. Would you like me to go first? You go first. Okay. My fail was this measles outbreak in South Carolina is accelerating with over 100 reported cases. Even Fox News put up a thing that measles has gone up, I think it's 14,000% in the Trump administration, this new Trump administration. The fact that anyone's getting measles at all. To become best friend to measles is astonishing. Many of these diseases are diseases we have solved.
many years ago and decades ago. And the fact that people are getting measles, which is very deadly, everybody, just so you know, it's not just, you know, sometimes it's just spots on your face. A lot of times it's incredibly debilitating or... or fatal um the fact that they're accelerating south carolina and texas all these places will you people get a fucking mac measles vaccine like it really is
Oh, the efficacy is so great and the rarity of any problems. And as it's showing what's happening is a lot of this data that they're showing where COVID is a problem or there were 10 deaths. It's all... It's really nonsense data. They're lying to you about this in order to pass what they get. And Robert Kennedy, he will get a pardon by Trump, but he should go to jail for what he's been doing. That's my feeling, as I've said. My win?
I was going to say the gay hockey show, Heated Rivalry, which I think you'll like. Gay hockey? Yeah, it's a really hot gay hot. Canada has brought us... a tale of forbidden love between hockey players. And it is very hot, let me just say. very, very hot. And I am not a big aficionado of gay porn, but there you have it. It's really, well, it's like romance porn. That's not your genre. It's not my genre, but I like it. But I was going to give it to that, but I have to say...
Again, you've got me onto this. This episode of Pluribus, The Gap, was astonishing. People either don't like it. or like it. Nothing happens in this episode, but it does. There's no words. The two characters, this guy coming up from Paraguay and Rhea Sehorne, who's amazing as Carol.
It was just, it was so beautiful, an episode. It takes so much guts, as you said, Vince Gillian, in the middle of your hit season. And by the way, I think this will end up being the most important thing Apple's done and possibly on streaming right now. In the middle of your season, you pull this shit. I love it. I love every bit of it. It was so I think about it all week, every single aspect of those shows and the things they do. And if I were Carol, a lesbian stuck by myself.
I too would golf into a window. I would drive golf wigs into a skyscraper window and really enjoy doing it. And I just... I love both characters, and I'm excited for them to meet, I assume, in the next episode. But I got to say, it takes a set, speaking of balls again, and not pucks, to do this, to do the way they did it. All right, that's my win.
¶ Media Accountability And Mifepristone Controversy
Go ahead. So I'll start with my fail. My fail is face the nation's incredibly odd framing of a question to Senator Bill Cassidy this past Sunday that literally. I love Margaret Brennan. I love Face the Nation. It's one of the many ways I communicate to my sons that I'm 140 fucking years old is I love watching Face the Nation. But I asked the team to just cue up this one question. Do we have the question?
CBS has confirmed that there are no ongoing safety studies into the abortion drug mifepristone. This was despite the Trump administration saying they were going to conduct one. And anti-abortion groups want this review to take place. I saw a letter the FDA commissioner sent to you last week claiming they are reviewing the evidence. Do you believe him? And if not, what are you doing about it? That is nothing.
but whitewashed Sunday morning Vaseline over wholesale misogyny. The framing of the question, has the FDA conducted investigations. No, they haven't conducted investigations into Advil or erythromycin either. Why? Because... This is an FDA-approved drug that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and other leading medical organizations have stated that. Mifepristone is an open quote.
incredibly safe medication. Yes, it is. Thank you. And the complications are exceedingly rare, usually minor and easily treatable. As a matter of fact. and there's peer-reviewed research on this, the U.S. death rate from childbirth is about 14 times higher than from any legally induced... abortion, all methods, including the safest, which is mifepristone. And to frame it as, oh, there's a concern. They aren't looking at this, investigating it.
is such an incredible far-right talking point that somehow to claim that you give a flying fuck about women's health by... undermining women's health by sowing doubt of which there is no medical evidence. That lends any veracity to that doubt. Yes, it's called reporting, and they're not doing it at the current CBS News. They're taking a heritage talking point. That is right. And sowing doubt from a show.
And a journalist who never used to do this bullshit. Well, she also has done it several times since the purchase by Paramount, which I warned you about. I told you these people aren't reporters and it gives me no pleasure, but Margaret, what in the actual fuck are you doing? Go ahead. But the framing of this question creates doubt around this drug. Yes, that's the point. Which is, it is, it is.
It is so irresponsible and such an abuse of a brand that has taken decades. Just asking questions, Scott. Just asking, that is the attitude towards the people who run CBS News. Asking a conservative senator a talking point that somehow frames it as your concern. If she if they were to say people on the far right believe that this. This is murder and they want it looked into. Okay, fine. But to pretend this is about women's health?
Under the auspice of trying to create doubt around a very effective means of bodily autonomy, which is the definition of women's health, it's just, I mean. I'm holding CBS, the show, and quite frankly, Margaret Brennan, what the fuck are you thinking? My sentiments exactly. This is not the first time. Margaret Brennan is a star.
You have leverage. You should not be reading the talking points from Project 2025. Yep. She did it before. This one was repulsive. It really is. I appreciate it. Scott, I love you. I stopped the show and I'm like, did I just hear this correctly? Yes, that's correct. And I went on YouTube and I'm threads and I'm like, what the fuck? What the actual? And it's so dis... Anyway, I'm going to move on.
Well, I'm just saying they had they had the whole the whole CBS News page was a nothing burger of an Erica Kirk interview. So I told I told you this would happen. But go ahead. I was right. I was right. And I was right. The new novel. Because they're not reporters. The new novel from Kara Swisher. All right. This is my win. Okay. I want to win. I want to win. This really is a win. It's the gay hockey players. Gawky. Gawky. Oh, that's right. So, um...
Merry Christmas, balls. I didn't know that a lot of gay hockey players. A lot of balls in that show. I didn't know there were a lot of gay hockey players. Oh, my God. All the people are talking about it. Well, I mean, they do suck a mean dick. Yeah, I do. That question, that joke never gets old. Anyways, so.
¶ Compassion And Deep Relationships Win
My win is, Kara, I'm at that age. I posted on Instagram. And this isn't about me. It's not a big loss for me. The individual I'm about to talk about, I haven't seen in decades. But there was a core group of eight of us. in the fraternity. And one of them is Brad Luff who passed away this week after a battle with pancreatic cancer. And obviously that's not my win. And I don't want...
It's not a big loss for me. I haven't seen Brad in 30 years. But my win is the following. My win is a close friend named David Kingsdale who was part of our core group. And the last few years, Brad had struggled on a number of levels, including in terms of his relationships with his family. And David, who is this, he was president of our fraternity, captain of our football team, just like.
the ultimate kind of like aspirational alpha male and a really decent man. He had spent the better part of the last two years coordinating and caring for Brad in terms of his health care. I would get a call from David. This couldn't have been easy for David. I'd say, do you know anyone at Cedars? I'm trying to get him into the right physical therapy. Do you know anyone? Do you know a surgeon here? There have been studies showing.
that the most important thing in healthcare is that you have an advocate, and that is you have someone who loves you and someone who's looking out for you. And here was David Kingsdale looking after Brad. Anyways, the... I think a lot about happiness, and I just had David Brooks on my podcast, and the biggest studies of its kind all say that happiness comes down to...
The number of deep and meaningful relationships, that's not a spoiler or that seems somewhat obvious. But the wrinkle in it that's really interesting is that the happiest people aren't the ones who are loved the most. it's the ones that have the most people to love, right? That find relationships where they find people who will love them. William Macy has a great line in the film Magnolia where he says, I have love to give, I just don't know where to give it.
And I've been thinking a lot about David. He just demonstrated so much character when Brad was so vulnerable. Here was a guy, a really competent guy who was known for 40 years, calling everyone. finding, helping raise money for Brad, finding the right doctors. And this is a guy with his own life, his own career, his own wife and his own kids.
And it just got me thinking that the happiest people are able to find others where they can put a lot of love. Anyways, my win is David Kingsdale, who placed a lot of love and regard and gave a lot of comfort. to our friend Brad Luff at the end of his life. So my win is David Kingsdale.
Oh, that's lovely, Scott. That is. It's time. This is the time, especially, when we should be thinking about that stuff. So weird. Our friends are dying, Kara. It's so weird. It's true. It's true. That's the way it goes. But not today. Not us. Not today. Not today. And by the way, Scott, I would take care of you.
I'll count on that. Just bring the hat. It's going to be some facelift mishap. I need you to do two things. I need you to bring the hat and Emily Ratajkowski. I will. I will bring her. If you had some... Facelift gone awry. That's how it's going to go. It's a good chance. That's a good chance. Some Joe Rivers action. Me and George Conn will do everything it takes to get Emily Radikowsky at your bedside. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I'm going to send it to you.
I appreciate that. Has a single white ball. There you go. That's how you operate. Look at this, see? Anyway, that's a lovely thing to say. But again, I feel my gay...
¶ Tech Billionaires And Political Shifts
pucks are much better. Okay. We want to hear from you. Send us your question about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke. with podcaster and neuroscientist Sam Harris. We talked about why so many tech billionaires have embraced Trump's authoritarian politics. Of course we did. Let's listen to a clip.
No one ever has to give a rational accounting of how their views have changed. I mean, after January 6th, some of the guys on the All In podcast, I think it was Chamath most vocally.
you know in the aftermath of january i think he said that you know trump should be in jail for the rest of his life right it's like so how these guys can't went from there to where they are now is has never been explained right and they feel no burden to explain it because they have cultivated audiences that simply don't care about these kinds of you know ethical now we're doing this now we're doing this
I think that was great. And he also noted that they will go right back and pretend it never happened when things go dark, which they are. He's a role model of mine. I mean, a genuine role model. Yeah, he and I used to beef all the time. Allies have changed so drastically. I have to say, both he and Yuval Harari, who were very tight with the tech bros, have been courageous to push up against them, which Sam has.
To his detriment, I would suspect. Sam is literally the personification of a moral compass. He has his principles and he just never wavers from them. I find he's the least perverted adulterer. Money has had the least. He's very successful. And the guys he's referencing are a moral compass gone haywire.
It's all about everything they say in the moment can be reverse engineered to what they believe will make them richer at that moment. That's right. Yeah, I have to say we were we I was a really interesting discussion. OK, that's the show.
¶ Happy Holidays And Podcast Future
Let me just say, this is our last one before 2026 because we have taped two shows, a listener episode and a predictions episode. And we are taking a few days off on Christmas and New Year's. And Scott, of course, is... traveling the world. I'm just going to San Francisco with my family. We wish you a happy holidays, however you celebrate.
We love our fans, and we love each other, of course, and that goes without saying. And we've had a great year, don't you think, Scott, with our tour? Our numbers are going up. We're having the best time, I think. It's been a great, I mean, for a terrible 2025. Yeah, we've had a wonderful year. Thank you. Thanks to you. And we hope to have a wonderful 2026. We're going to be together for another year at least until the until.
whenever. Anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday with a wonderful listener mail segment in which Scott, as you might imagine, cries. Anyway, Scott, I love you. Happy holidays. Happy 2025 and happy next year. And I'll see you next year. Read us out. Now look forward to it. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin.
Ernie Anderson, hot engineer this episode. Rich Shipley edited the video. Thanks also to Jabros, Mr. Bear, and Dan Shalon. Nishak Coroz, Box Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com.
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. We want to wish you in 26 the key to happiness, and that is you find people and things to place an immense amount of love. Happy New Year.