315. Can Pilates Make You Stronger? with Heath Lander and Raphael Bender - podcast episode cover

315. Can Pilates Make You Stronger? with Heath Lander and Raphael Bender

Jun 29, 202556 minSeason 4Ep. 315
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Episode description

In this episode, Raphael and Heath challenge the myth that Pilates doesn’t build strength. They break down the science of strength adaptations, clarify what “strength” really means, and explain how Pilates can be a legitimate strength training method—when done right.

Key Topics:

  • What counts as “strength” and how it’s measured
  • Why effort (not burn or soreness) drives adaptation
  • How load, reps, and proximity to failure matter more than equipment
  • Debunking common myths around bodyweight vs. external load
  • How to apply strength principles in Pilates for real results

Takeaway for Instructors:

You can—and should—train your clients for strength using Pilates. This episode will give you the tools to do it.

Connect with me on Instagram: @the_raphaelbender

Connect with Heath on Instagram: @contrologycollective

Download a free course guide:




This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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Transcript

WEBVTT

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Music.

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Welcome to Pilates Elephants. I'm Raphael Bender. I'm here with my friend Heath

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Lander. Hey, Heath. Hey, Raf.

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Can Pilates make you stronger? Yes or no?

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Absolutely, it can. Okay, good talk. See you later. See you later.

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So that's a little bit of a topical question going around. We want to unpack

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that today, dear listener.

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And, uh, turns out the answer is only if you do it right.

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So, um.

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Where do we start with this one? I think, well, when, when we, I think, I think,

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firstly, I think when we were both growing up in as polite baby Pilates instructors,

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we were taught that every exercise has a particular spring setting, you know,

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two, two red springs for short spine three to four for footwork you know two

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for hundreds whatever it was,

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yeah and you know some of

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those had a little bit of variation like if you know if you couldn't do like

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kneeling arms on one spring you could do it on half a spring you know but like

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heaven forbid you do it on three springs i mean that was just inconceivable

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you know um uh and so there was this basic concept that,

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you have a spring setting that is right for a person.

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So most people do kneeling arms on one spring, but some people will need to

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do on a half spring and that's totally fine if that's the right number for them.

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But there was no concept that you start on a half spring and then you get to one spring.

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It was like, well, what happens after you get to one spring?

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Do you just stay there forever? And the answer was, yeah, basically that's what you do.

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Stay on one spring forever. Yeah.

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And when I've thought long and hard on that,

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I think I've got, there's two things I think about with that and the things

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that, and talk about in workshops is, uh, one, maybe the rationale is that you're developing a practice.

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So like more like, like a, a sequence, like a yoga asana sequence, vinyasa or whatever.

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Well, like a Tai Chi form or a Kung Fu, you know, form or a Karate Kana, you know?

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Yeah, so once you've established the movement sequence, then you just forever

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more drill more deeply into the nuance of how you're doing the movement rather

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than where you're adding load. Yeah.

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So you're going deeper into the practice, into the work, capital W. Capital W. Yeah.

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And, I mean, you and I both started in martial arts. Yeah.

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Or maybe you started in yoga. Did you do yoga first in martial arts?

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We both started martial arts.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we both started martial arts. And martial arts,

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we both started in Chinese martial arts where you did a lot of forms.

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And a form is basically just, dear listener, it's like just a sequence of,

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you know, kung fu moves that you do, you know, and it's the same sequence that

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you do over and over, very lots and lots, thousands and thousands and thousands

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of repetitions of, you know, this flowing sequence.

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And the idea is to make it more and more flowing, more and more precise as you

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do it over the years and the decades until you become a master of it.

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And so that's kind of the way that I think, you know, Pilates is often taught,

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certainly not by everyone.

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And there is a real beauty and value in that type of practice,

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which is it becomes a moving meditation.

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And you, you know, get into a flow state and you do start to really tune into

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your body and tune into just the rhythm of the movement.

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And, you know, so there is a real beauty and value in that, but it doesn't make you stronger.

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Doesn't make you stronger. I think just quickly as a sidebar,

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I think one of the things that this, you know, the debates that we have in Pilates land,

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sometimes a little bit reductionist, like it's almost become sort of factionalized,

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like, you know, the reform is a wildly variable tool.

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So you can do a flowing self-practice, which is about exactly what you just described.

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And you can do movements under varying loads to make yourself stronger or you

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can also do things to work on your flexibility.

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But don't I have to just choose one camp?

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Well, that seems to be the kind of implied thing that we all have to be of a camp.

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But I personally think, yeah, I think it's a, the tool itself is such a kind

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of weird and nuanced thing that to say it's just one thing is odd.

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Well, I think what's so cool about it is it's not just one thing. I mean- Yeah, exactly.

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It's so versatile. That's its superpower, right? It's not the best tool for improving strength.

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It's not the best tool for improving flexibility. It's not, but it's a really

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good tool for both of those things and many other things besides.

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Right. And it also has the, I mean, you just mentioned two of the three big,

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well, the three dimensions of movement and the other is neuromotor control,

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you've got an unstable surface with a horizontal force vector.

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That's pretty cool for stability, whatever we call stability training.

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It's pretty freaking cool.

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Yeah. All right. So, dear listener, everything in life is a trade-off.

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There's no perfect solution.

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And every form of exercise, you know, whether it's using bands or body weight

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or barbells or machine weights or a Pilates reformer or a Cadillac or a stability

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chair or whatever, they all have their trade-offs.

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They're better at some things at the expense of being worse at other things.

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You know, so with, say, for example, bands, well, they're amazing.

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They're so flexible. Like you can fly and carry them in your hotel room and whatever.

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But it's like you can't just can't create enough resistance with them to develop

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serious strength you know and if you did there's a real chance of them snapping

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and hitting you in the eye,

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um and so you know they're good for some things and not

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good you know not as good for other things and and that come one comes at the

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expense of the other and then you've got something at the opposite end of the

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spectrum like you've got a massive like weight stack in the gym that weighs

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a ton and you couldn't possibly take in a semi-trailer let alone on an airplane

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and it's fucking amazing for developing strength,

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but like there's no requirement for really for control and it doesn't improve your flexibility much.

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So, and then, you know, so each of these pieces of equipment has kind of some kind of superpower,

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and the superpower of the Pilates reformer is it's good, very good,

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I would say at everything, but it's not the best at anything. Yeah. Well said.

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I mean, you can't really take it on a plane. Let's, let's face it.

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It kind of sucks in that regard.

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So one thing i actually there's there's so

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much around this topic i want to i'd love

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to talk about and in some cases pick your brain

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about i was running a workshop on the weekend and it was a group of really smart

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switched on curious instructors and we were talking about layers and clusters

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and as part of that we talk about you know that you can train for specific things

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So you can do strength training,

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you can do range of motion training, you can do stability skill training.

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I'm just going to quickly sidebar here and say layers is when you start easy

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and then you do a slightly harder version, slightly harder version of the same move.

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And clusters is a sequence of moves all in the same body position without changing

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the equipment settings that you can basically, you know, alternate muscle groups

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in this without kind of jumping around all over the reformer.

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Yeah. And-

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Yes, so we're talking about that and that if you're training for strength,

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there are particular conditions you want to create.

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And if you're training for skill, there are particular conditions you want to

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create. And same for ROM.

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And the idea in that particular conversation was that we're going to work on

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layers that are oriented towards load, towards strength.

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And as we had that conversation, we said, okay, how do we measure strength?

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So we measure strength through repetitions maximum.

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So that means how many reps you can do. And then we talk about how when you,

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if you actually want to get stronger, the reps need to, you need to be able

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to do less than X, let's say 20.

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Right. So sorry, I just want to, again, hold that thought. I want to just quickly

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unpack that for a second.

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So when we say like you measure strength by how many reps you can do.

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So what we don't mean is if you can do a hundred reps, you're stronger than if you can do 20 reps.

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That's not what we mean. What we mean is you make a load so heavy that you can only do six reps, right?

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And so that's how we measure strength. If you can do seven reps with that same

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load, then you got stronger, right?

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Or if you can lift a heavier load for six reps, then you got stronger.

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Yeah. And that the measurement convention is repetitions maximum.

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So if you can do six, but physically not seven, like you actually can't do it,

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then it's six RM at that weight is your current strength. Right.

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And the weight that you use if you want to build

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strength has to be heavy enough that you physically cannot

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do and then of course this is a continuum not a a binary

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so it's somewhere around the 20 rep max

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is where you know you're getting stronger which means you physically

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can't do 21 or you physically can't do 18 and then

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the other you know beauty about that that that

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evidence is that you don't have to

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do it to complete failure so but you

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do need to do it to a point where your form dissipates

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so you lose range of motion you look a

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bit sketchy you're you know you're not making it smooth and beautiful you're

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struggling to do those last few and so that that's the conversation where i

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was having and did you want to double click on something yeah i just took again

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to briefly unpack because there's a there's a concept we've covered in detail

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in previous episodes but just in case,

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dear listener, you haven't yet listened to all 313 of the previous episodes, shame on you.

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Strength and there's a continuum. Like it's not like a certain number of reps

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will build strength and if you go one rep over that, it won't build strength.

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If you want to maximize strength, you need to lift really heavy and that means

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you can only do a very few number of reps.

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Like if you're lifting like three reps and then you can't do a fourth,

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that's going of very close to maximize your strength.

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Whereas if you can lift 50 reps, right, you're,

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probably going to, over a long enough time horizon, increase your strength by

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1%, but it's going to be far, far slower, and you're going to get much more.

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Let me just zoom out again. At the maximizing strength end of the spectrum,

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you've got basically one rep max, so just lifting the amount you can only lift once.

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That's how elite strength athletes like Olympic weightlifters train.

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They do one rep when they train.

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And then at the other end, if we go zoom all the way down to the other end,

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we've got like ultra marathons where you do like 50,000 steps, you know, in a row.

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That's one set of 50,000 reps, right?

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And you will get literally zero, possibly negative muscle growth,

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you know, from doing that, right?

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Now that is cardio, right? So strength and cardio are not different things.

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They're just on a continuum.

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They're on a continuum. And there's a crossover point somewhere in the middle

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where it's like a bit of both.

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And the crossover point turns out

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it's somewhere more than 20 reps and somewhere less than about 35 reps.

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So if you're doing more than 35 reps, it's basically just cardio.

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And if you're doing less than 20 reps, probably it's mostly strengthening.

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And if you're doing somewhere in between 20 and 35, it's probably a bit of both.

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Nice. Well said. So that idea, and in the conversation we were having is when you're.

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Programming or calling to a group class, if you're calling loads,

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and this brings us to the topic of the fixed spring setting or not,

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if you're calling loads,

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right, where people can do,

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let's say more than 20 or even more than 30 as

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is so often the case and what we mean by that dear

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listener is if you've caught a spring tension for a group and

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they're still going at 25 reps and they look okay then they

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can probably do 50 right so that's the sort of listener it's not how

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many reps you do do it's how many you could do

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that determines whether you're going to get a stimulus or not based

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on the load yeah and when

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you so when you choose loads that are at that level that

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allow people lots of reps well that would be where you

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practice the nuances of a particular movement

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or you add load add stability challenges because people have got capacity to

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absorb challenge but if you want to build strength then the movement that you

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do needs to be loaded such that let's say hopefully everyone in the room can't

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do 20 if raf's in the room he's going to do 20,

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but then if I'm in the room, I'm going to do 12 because I'm not as strong as Ralph.

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And if my mum's in the room, she's going to do two because she's not as strong as me.

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Or if we're doing, I don't know, teaser snaps, you might do 20 and I might do four.

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You know, that'd be my maximum. Yeah, yeah.

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And what I was sort of, the conversation I had with this crew that I'm trying

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to get around to recapturing was...

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Firstly loading things so that we've got it heavy

00:14:21.837 --> 00:14:25.297

enough that you can't do the 20 and then

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it's obviously complicated by the fact that you're teaching a group and

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everyone's got different abilities and then someone sort

00:14:30.977 --> 00:14:33.817

of put to put forward the point that you know

00:14:33.817 --> 00:14:37.837

proper strength training is really only six rm

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or heavy i can't remember if that was a six rm and i what we

00:14:41.037 --> 00:14:44.057

then talked about was and you've already

00:14:44.057 --> 00:14:47.177

said it nestled in that sidebar is if

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we're going to be serious like properly serious about

00:14:50.037 --> 00:14:53.097

strength training the conditions that we need and this

00:14:53.097 --> 00:14:55.977

is sort of a question and to you and also just a

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sharing is where does the optimal strength training happen it happens on a stable

00:15:01.577 --> 00:15:05.477

surface with a predictable load like a barbell that you know is what it's going

00:15:05.477 --> 00:15:09.157

to do and you're very familiar with the movement so you're efficient and you

00:15:09.157 --> 00:15:14.337

can build efficiency and so that the conversation i have with them is like they're the they're the,

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preconditions for optimal strength training plus the load.

00:15:17.897 --> 00:15:23.437

So stability, predictability, and familiarity with the movement.

00:15:23.597 --> 00:15:26.777

I would say, yeah, so some degree of stability.

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Like, again, these things are not binary. They're a continuum.

00:15:31.357 --> 00:15:34.937

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, this is the interesting thing about

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all of this, and there's so many threads in my head about this topic at the

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moment. So when we look at this on the reformer, it's a very unstable surface in a lot of movements.

00:15:46.797 --> 00:15:51.797

So like I say, a diagonal strap pull or wood chopper, as it's often called, right?

00:15:51.797 --> 00:15:57.177

So I'm going up on a high knee with… Right. Well, you've got multiple layers

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or dimensions of instability because the carriage is moving in one direction

00:16:00.417 --> 00:16:03.517

and that's unstable when you're on it.

00:16:03.917 --> 00:16:07.877

And so then you're changing position yourself. and so there's inertia from your

00:16:07.877 --> 00:16:12.337

body, plus the strap is unstable in all, you know, in all planes.

00:16:12.657 --> 00:16:15.877

So yeah, there's multiple layers of instability there. Whereas if you're on

00:16:15.877 --> 00:16:21.317

a, if you're doing a like bench press on a, you know, on a stable bench,

00:16:21.637 --> 00:16:23.217

the barbell's pretty unstable.

00:16:23.437 --> 00:16:26.717

Like the very heavy object that can go and move in any direction really wants

00:16:26.717 --> 00:16:29.737

to move down, but you know, it could go anyway.

00:16:30.677 --> 00:16:34.617

But you're on a stable surface, so the barbell's the only unstable thing.

00:16:34.617 --> 00:16:39.677

Whereas on a reformer, like your legs and your arms, potentially in a woodchopper

00:16:39.677 --> 00:16:43.937

or kneeling arms or whatever, are both attached to unstable surfaces.

00:16:44.577 --> 00:16:47.577

Yeah. And you're being essentially pulled in opposite directions.

00:16:47.817 --> 00:16:51.757

The springs are pulling your knees one way and the straps pulling your arms another way. Right.

00:16:52.956 --> 00:16:58.616

So you've got this highly unstable movement. And so then thinking of that as

00:16:58.616 --> 00:17:06.296

a strength training context is kind of flawed because the major problem you're solving is balance.

00:17:07.256 --> 00:17:14.156

So then it's the, but then the paradox of that is the more familiar you become

00:17:14.156 --> 00:17:17.116

with the movement, the more efficient you are at stabilizing,

00:17:17.136 --> 00:17:18.496

the more load you can tolerate.

00:17:18.736 --> 00:17:22.396

So if you wanted, so that movement like a wood chopper, so you're kneeling sideways

00:17:22.396 --> 00:17:26.476

on the carriage, you've got a strap in two hands and you're,

00:17:26.516 --> 00:17:28.916

you know, twisting towards the foot bar, you know.

00:17:29.876 --> 00:17:36.136

And so, you know, if you wanted to bias that towards more strength development,

00:17:36.356 --> 00:17:42.076

which would come at the expense of less motor control, right, development,

00:17:42.436 --> 00:17:47.796

you would sit on your heels so that you reduce the instability.

00:17:48.176 --> 00:17:51.816

And now that wouldn't eliminate the instability, but it reduces it significantly.

00:17:51.816 --> 00:17:56.356

And then you would add another full spring or more because, because of that

00:17:56.356 --> 00:18:00.756

increased instability, you can now move more load or you would just grasp the

00:18:00.756 --> 00:18:05.076

strap a bit closer down the rope towards the pulleys, which would achieve the same thing.

00:18:06.276 --> 00:18:08.636

Great. Exactly. So yeah.

00:18:10.582 --> 00:18:15.862

So then the question then is, because what have we said? Does Pilates make you

00:18:15.862 --> 00:18:17.302

stronger? We're talking about reformer.

00:18:17.562 --> 00:18:19.702

So then it's like, is the reformer good for strength? They say,

00:18:19.782 --> 00:18:21.722

well, then what? Fuck yeah. Right.

00:18:22.742 --> 00:18:26.902

And if we say we want to make people stronger with the reformer,

00:18:27.062 --> 00:18:33.342

then one argument here would be focus on movements that are as stable as possible, blah, blah, blah.

00:18:33.342 --> 00:18:38.262

So push-ups off the foot bar is about as stable as a horizontal push as you

00:18:38.262 --> 00:18:41.962

can create on the reformer versus kneeling punches where you've got the same

00:18:41.962 --> 00:18:43.562

problem as the diagonal strap pull.

00:18:45.242 --> 00:18:49.122

So if you're going to, at the point in your program when you want to make people

00:18:49.122 --> 00:18:52.582

stronger, you pick a movement that you can make stable for most people,

00:18:52.622 --> 00:18:56.762

you know, as stable as possible, roughly predictable, and they can be familiar

00:18:56.762 --> 00:18:59.502

with it. So for me, that's like a push-up off the foot bar.

00:18:59.682 --> 00:19:02.682

Right. And then when you go to the diagonal strap pulls, it's like,

00:19:02.742 --> 00:19:06.422

okay, as you said, this is a combination of everything. I'm going to start low

00:19:06.422 --> 00:19:09.762

and get used to the load, and then I'm going to play around with the knees and

00:19:09.762 --> 00:19:13.662

the hips and the arms, which is where reform is fun, right?

00:19:13.762 --> 00:19:16.142

Like they're funky moves that you can't do anywhere else.

00:19:17.082 --> 00:19:23.082

Right. And dear listener, like, you know, we're injecting some nuance into this

00:19:23.082 --> 00:19:28.682

here, and we're not saying that you must go hard on highly stable,

00:19:28.902 --> 00:19:32.602

highly loaded movements 100% of the time in all your reformer classes.

00:19:32.782 --> 00:19:36.002

That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is you can do it all.

00:19:36.142 --> 00:19:43.002

You can build strength by doing simple, stable, high load movements,

00:19:43.062 --> 00:19:48.162

and that only is going to take you 15 minutes out of your class to get everyone super strong.

00:19:48.642 --> 00:19:53.602

Then you can also spend 15 minutes doing like cool funky shit like twisty things

00:19:53.602 --> 00:19:58.422

with the low springs and balletic and all that shit and then you can spend 15

00:19:58.422 --> 00:20:00.162

minutes doing stretchy stuff as well.

00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:05.239

Or any other combination, but it doesn't, you can do it all.

00:20:05.639 --> 00:20:07.639

That's the beauty of this machine. It does it all.

00:20:08.199 --> 00:20:15.119

Right. And you can do all of that in a cluster rather than having blocks in your program, right?

00:20:15.219 --> 00:20:18.579

So you can do a cluster, which we're saying is multiple movements and muscle

00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:22.519

groups in one basic position where the equipment setting stays roughly the same.

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.859

And you can change, you can actually change the equipment settings to use different

00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:31.599

muscle groups and to focus on different outputs like strength or stability.

00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:35.499

Right. Long stretch on half a spring abs, long stretch on three springs arms.

00:20:36.159 --> 00:20:39.859

Right. And in between you step off and do some flying splits.

00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.559

And because you can access the springs and the foot bar, those transitions are

00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.399

quick and simple, especially with a little bit of practice.

00:20:48.219 --> 00:20:55.499

So one of the questions I want to ask you, Raph,

00:20:55.719 --> 00:21:04.639

is there are things that happen physiologically and neuromuscularly or neurologically

00:21:04.639 --> 00:21:05.999

when you become stronger.

00:21:06.179 --> 00:21:10.559

You talked about that last week and you probably talked about it in depth in other podcasts.

00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:13.039

We talk about it a lot in the programs.

00:21:14.814 --> 00:21:18.654

So when I go and do, let's keep using the woodchopper as an example.

00:21:18.914 --> 00:21:22.234

When I go and do woodchoppers, this diagonal strap pull. Let's call it drawing

00:21:22.234 --> 00:21:26.054

the sword or swakati or some traditional Pilates name.

00:21:26.654 --> 00:21:30.314

Okay, but I'm going to say a two-handed version rather than the single-handed

00:21:30.314 --> 00:21:33.434

version because I want to maximize. I'm just, you know, giving you shit.

00:21:34.194 --> 00:21:38.614

Okay, right, right. So our two-handed swakati, which might be swakati's,

00:21:38.774 --> 00:21:42.374

we're diagonally strap pulling.

00:21:42.374 --> 00:21:45.294

Right now i get used to the movement over x number

00:21:45.294 --> 00:21:47.994

of classes or x number of practices and i

00:21:47.994 --> 00:21:51.014

work out that with my knees wider i've got a better base of support

00:21:51.014 --> 00:21:55.334

with my elbows bent i'm more athletic against the spring tension if i lean into

00:21:55.334 --> 00:21:58.634

the strap a little bit more i can offset the load all of those little efficiencies

00:21:58.634 --> 00:22:03.234

that i work out with practice and over time i discover wow cool i can do this

00:22:03.234 --> 00:22:08.814

on one and a half or two springs and i'm getting down below 15 reps right so it's okay,

00:22:09.074 --> 00:22:12.854

I've gotten below the 20 threshold for effective strengthening.

00:22:13.594 --> 00:22:17.494

I've become efficient enough with the stability challenges that I'm not feeling

00:22:17.494 --> 00:22:18.654

like I'm going to fall over.

00:22:19.194 --> 00:22:28.274

My question to you is, what's the cost to the physiological effects of strengthening of that?

00:22:29.554 --> 00:22:34.494

Did you know where I'm going with that? Is that making you stronger or is it

00:22:34.494 --> 00:22:38.214

making you a kind of better athlete in a particular construct?

00:22:38.554 --> 00:22:42.134

Well, it's a trade-off, right?

00:22:42.314 --> 00:22:47.874

So if you want to maximize your strength, you would just sit on your heels,

00:22:48.034 --> 00:22:52.754

on the reformer, put all of the springs on, grasp the strap as close as possible

00:22:52.754 --> 00:22:56.934

to the pulley, and just pull for all you're worth.

00:22:57.114 --> 00:23:01.874

And if you twist and lean and distort, it doesn't matter, just like freaking

00:23:01.874 --> 00:23:03.274

pull that thing, dude, right?

00:23:03.314 --> 00:23:05.914

Hard as you can. And if you can only do two and a half reps,

00:23:06.074 --> 00:23:08.794

perfect, perfect, right? And those reps should look ugly.

00:23:09.554 --> 00:23:11.234

So that's if you want to maximize strength.

00:23:12.851 --> 00:23:16.251

Whereas at the other end, if you want to maximize control, now,

00:23:16.391 --> 00:23:18.831

when you maximize strength, it's going to look ugly, right?

00:23:18.891 --> 00:23:22.091

So it's at the expense of what we would call, you know, control.

00:23:22.291 --> 00:23:28.391

Now, really, strength is, control is embedded in strength.

00:23:28.491 --> 00:23:32.231

So in order to express strength, you have to have control, but it's just not

00:23:32.231 --> 00:23:36.591

conscious control where you're consciously looking pretty while you do the movement,

00:23:36.591 --> 00:23:40.871

but your motor cortex is going to organize your body by the very act of leaning

00:23:40.871 --> 00:23:44.471

and grimacing and twisting and hiking your shoulder and whatever,

00:23:44.691 --> 00:23:47.011

that actually enables you to express more strength.

00:23:47.131 --> 00:23:49.991

So that is control. It's just not pretty control.

00:23:50.271 --> 00:23:54.671

But if you wanted to maximize pretty control, right, the finer,

00:23:54.891 --> 00:23:59.951

you know, doing it an artisanal way, then you would do a light spring,

00:24:00.631 --> 00:24:04.911

and you would move slowly and you would focus on developing the fluidity and,

00:24:05.111 --> 00:24:07.751

you know, lots of repetitions to build practice.

00:24:07.891 --> 00:24:10.991

Like if you're practicing a scale on a musical instrument, hundreds and hundreds

00:24:10.991 --> 00:24:13.331

of reps to, you know, really perfect it.

00:24:14.131 --> 00:24:18.451

And that would build almost no strength, right?

00:24:18.631 --> 00:24:21.591

And so at one end, we've got lots of strength and almost no control.

00:24:21.671 --> 00:24:23.611

And the other, we've got lots of control, almost no strength.

00:24:23.751 --> 00:24:25.071

And in the middle, you've got

00:24:25.071 --> 00:24:29.351

a bit of both, right? And so if you've got like a couple of springs on.

00:24:30.171 --> 00:24:33.971

You know, and you're kneeling and you've got two hands and you're not making

00:24:33.971 --> 00:24:38.591

it super ugly, but you're also, it doesn't look like, you know,

00:24:39.031 --> 00:24:41.011

Barajnikov dancing Swan Lake,

00:24:41.791 --> 00:24:46.751

you know, there's some element of control and some element of strength development there.

00:24:46.871 --> 00:24:51.311

Now, the maximum amount of strength you can develop in that position is going

00:24:51.311 --> 00:24:56.831

to be less than if you just sat on your heels and put all the springs on, right?

00:24:56.991 --> 00:25:02.651

But it's still going to be substantial, you know, so... If you can't do 20.

00:25:02.851 --> 00:25:05.571

If you can't do 20, yeah. yep and you

00:25:05.571 --> 00:25:08.851

go until your form dissipates notably right and

00:25:08.851 --> 00:25:11.631

so here's here's where we get to my first kind of

00:25:11.631 --> 00:25:15.751

answer to that question of like can pilates make

00:25:15.751 --> 00:25:20.531

you stronger it's like well depends where you fucking start from you know and

00:25:20.531 --> 00:25:25.491

depends how you do pilates and so if you do pilates the way that we're talking

00:25:25.491 --> 00:25:30.171

about it where you try and create situations at certain points in the session

00:25:30.171 --> 00:25:32.311

where the person can't do 20 reps,

00:25:32.831 --> 00:25:36.731

because it's just too much load for them to go beyond that, well,

00:25:36.831 --> 00:25:38.231

yeah, they will get stronger, right?

00:25:38.371 --> 00:25:43.071

But the limitation on the machine is because you've only got five springs on there.

00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:49.889

At some point, you've got all five springs on, right? And there is no more.

00:25:50.089 --> 00:25:52.629

You can't go stronger than that. I mean, you can grasp the strap a little bit

00:25:52.629 --> 00:25:55.209

higher, but it's eventually like you run out of strap, you run out of springs,

00:25:55.489 --> 00:25:58.909

you run out of carriage stopper positions, and that's as hard as you can go.

00:25:59.729 --> 00:26:05.749

Whereas on a barbell, there is essentially an infinite amount of extra weight you can add, right?

00:26:05.789 --> 00:26:09.369

So the barbell's got so many spots on the end of it, that's like the strongest

00:26:09.369 --> 00:26:11.969

human in the world doesn't run out of space on the barbell.

00:26:12.529 --> 00:26:15.809

So that's effectively uncapped right

00:26:15.809 --> 00:26:18.689

and that's the that's the superpower of barbells but guess what you

00:26:18.689 --> 00:26:21.809

can't stretch on a barbell you know like you can't

00:26:21.809 --> 00:26:24.809

do strike a tee on a barbell so so the

00:26:24.809 --> 00:26:27.489

beauty of the reformer is not that it's it's not a

00:26:27.489 --> 00:26:31.929

it's not like super specialized for strength and the the drawback of that is

00:26:31.929 --> 00:26:36.389

like will you develop elite world-class strength and conditioning levels of

00:26:36.389 --> 00:26:41.449

strength on a reformer no you will not no you will not but can you get like

00:26:41.449 --> 00:26:45.549

double as strong as the average human on planet Earth. Yes, you fucking can. Honor a former.

00:26:46.646 --> 00:26:49.606

And so it just depends, like, how strong do you want to get?

00:26:50.746 --> 00:26:53.686

And I think, just let me catch you there, too. I think one of the things,

00:26:54.066 --> 00:27:00.586

I've had this conversation a lot, when someone does have a handle on strength

00:27:00.586 --> 00:27:03.766

training, then their position becomes, well, the reformer's not great for strength

00:27:03.766 --> 00:27:05.326

training. So fair enough.

00:27:05.586 --> 00:27:10.926

Exactly as you just said, Raf, if we're talking about the pointy end of strength

00:27:10.926 --> 00:27:15.986

training, the super nerd factor of strength training, don't use a reformer.

00:27:15.986 --> 00:27:17.786

It just isn't the right tool.

00:27:18.366 --> 00:27:25.866

But who comes to group, you know, my brain is always oriented to the group reformer world.

00:27:26.046 --> 00:27:28.246

And so who comes to group reformer?

00:27:28.866 --> 00:27:32.246

35-year-old women who are slightly overweight and out of shape.

00:27:32.506 --> 00:27:36.186

Like now, dear listener, if that's not you, don't take offense, right?

00:27:36.346 --> 00:27:39.386

But like your average brand new client who walks in the door,

00:27:39.926 --> 00:27:42.206

you know, that's basically the profile, right?

00:27:42.446 --> 00:27:45.166

Yeah. and even if they're not female and even if

00:27:45.166 --> 00:27:48.226

they're not 35 and even if they're not slightly out of shape they're

00:27:48.226 --> 00:27:51.926

usually trying this out because they've heard it's kind of cool or it's a cool

00:27:51.926 --> 00:27:55.966

way to exercise because they don't like tennis or the gym and so they're not

00:27:55.966 --> 00:27:59.406

you know the number of people who come into a reformer class and say i don't

00:27:59.406 --> 00:28:05.326

care about anything but strength is exactly zero hi i'm i'm i'm a nationally

00:28:05.326 --> 00:28:08.206

competitive olympic weightlifter can you help me get stronger.

00:28:08.786 --> 00:28:12.386

Yeah, no, I can't. Not happening in a reformer class. You're helping people

00:28:12.386 --> 00:28:17.726

who quite possibly, and I mean this with all love for my fellow human,

00:28:17.906 --> 00:28:22.206

but the reality is what people generally think is strength training usually isn't.

00:28:22.346 --> 00:28:26.306

So the vast majority of your clients, even if they say they do strength at the

00:28:26.306 --> 00:28:29.766

gym, when you double click, they're doing 15 plus reps and they could have done

00:28:29.766 --> 00:28:31.446

more. So that's not strength training.

00:28:31.626 --> 00:28:34.346

Exactly. And we've got research on this and I've shared it in a previous episode,

00:28:34.506 --> 00:28:38.886

people typically at the gym, the average person, male and female,

00:28:39.206 --> 00:28:44.846

self-selects a load that is 50% of what's required to get stronger.

00:28:45.366 --> 00:28:48.706

So people are choosing a load that's their 20 RMs.

00:28:49.797 --> 00:28:53.517

But they're doing 10 reps. So they're warming up.

00:28:53.837 --> 00:28:57.497

Yeah. So the average person doesn't get stronger at the gym either because they're

00:28:57.497 --> 00:29:00.157

just self-selecting loads that's way too light.

00:29:00.417 --> 00:29:03.777

So it's the two things. Like we said, it's not just like, well,

00:29:03.837 --> 00:29:04.737

it depends where you're starting.

00:29:05.217 --> 00:29:09.137

It also depends how you'd use it, right? So you can get under a barbell and

00:29:09.137 --> 00:29:12.277

not get stronger if you do it wrong. You know, choose a load that's too light

00:29:12.277 --> 00:29:13.117

and you don't do enough reps.

00:29:13.577 --> 00:29:18.637

So it's the same on a reformer, But the limitation with a reformer is the top

00:29:18.637 --> 00:29:24.117

end of strength development is just not available on a reformer.

00:29:24.497 --> 00:29:30.117

But like you say, Heath, like 99.9% of your clients don't give a shit about

00:29:30.117 --> 00:29:32.257

that. And that's not their goal.

00:29:32.397 --> 00:29:37.497

And even, I would say, even the people who've come to my classes from CrossFit

00:29:37.497 --> 00:29:41.337

or Olympic weightlifting or powerlifting, they don't come to reformer to get

00:29:41.337 --> 00:29:43.177

stronger. That's what they go to powerlifting for.

00:29:43.917 --> 00:29:48.217

They come to stretch out and recover and, you know, get their mobility back

00:29:48.217 --> 00:29:50.777

and all of those good things. Yeah, exactly.

00:29:51.277 --> 00:29:56.137

All right, great. So what emerges from this for me is it's really,

00:29:56.237 --> 00:30:02.137

I think it's so important, and this is as a result of the deficit of what I

00:30:02.137 --> 00:30:04.637

learned in my Pilates training on the topic.

00:30:04.797 --> 00:30:08.017

Which I trained you. Yeah.

00:30:09.757 --> 00:30:14.397

For Pilates instructors. there's, well, yeah, we've come a long way together

00:30:14.397 --> 00:30:18.717

to learn about strength and what it is and how you actually do it.

00:30:19.317 --> 00:30:24.777

But then, and maybe this goes to that other topic we had, is that the more sophisticated,

00:30:25.317 --> 00:30:27.397

you know, the more in-depth your understanding.

00:30:29.497 --> 00:30:34.117

In a sense, the less you should share it with people, the less obvious your knowledge should be.

00:30:34.497 --> 00:30:39.217

I feel very confident these days that if you step in front of me on a reformer

00:30:39.217 --> 00:30:42.997

class, I'm going to get you to a strength training output.

00:30:43.377 --> 00:30:47.037

I'm going to get you to those conditions because I've practiced the layers that

00:30:47.037 --> 00:30:51.597

I teach and the clusters that I teach so many times that I can read you and

00:30:51.597 --> 00:30:55.037

I can watch your movement and I'm very confident I'm going to get you there multiple times.

00:30:57.477 --> 00:31:01.757

But I don't talk about it. There's no point telling you about it.

00:31:01.797 --> 00:31:04.397

There's no point saying, now we're doing a strength training phase, folks.

00:31:04.537 --> 00:31:07.617

I just want to get you moving. People don't care about that. They don't care.

00:31:08.177 --> 00:31:13.277

Look, people come to group exercise because they want to be told what to do,

00:31:13.737 --> 00:31:15.297

and they want to do it with other people.

00:31:15.397 --> 00:31:19.057

If they wanted to figure it out themselves, they'd be at the gym or at home

00:31:19.057 --> 00:31:19.917

figuring out themselves.

00:31:20.457 --> 00:31:23.637

Right. The figure it out yourself person doesn't come to group exercise.

00:31:23.857 --> 00:31:27.937

The person who comes to group exercise wants you to give them a session that gives them results.

00:31:28.117 --> 00:31:31.037

And even if they don't know that, the results are what bring them back.

00:31:31.177 --> 00:31:36.937

Right. Yeah. Dear listener, think about if you hired like a private chef, right?

00:31:37.677 --> 00:31:41.137

And to cook your meals for you and your family at home, right?

00:31:42.097 --> 00:31:45.237

You're probably not going to go to the private chef. Oh, show me how to make

00:31:45.237 --> 00:31:48.277

this dish. Show me how to make this dish. It's like, if you wanted to cook,

00:31:48.437 --> 00:31:49.557

you wouldn't have hired a fucking chef.

00:31:50.337 --> 00:31:54.337

You know, you would have gone to cooking classes or something, right?

00:31:54.577 --> 00:31:58.317

So the fact that you hired a chef says you don't fucking want to know how to cook.

00:31:58.477 --> 00:32:01.817

You want someone else to do it for you, right? And that's the chef's job is

00:32:01.817 --> 00:32:04.257

to, so you don't have to worry about it or think about it.

00:32:04.317 --> 00:32:08.577

The food just appears on the table, right? And that's the same with Pilates.

00:32:08.837 --> 00:32:11.717

The people who come to a group performer class, they don't want to think about it.

00:32:12.237 --> 00:32:14.577

They just want you to think about it for them and give them,

00:32:14.797 --> 00:32:16.617

okay, here's what I thought about and here's how to do it.

00:32:16.697 --> 00:32:19.217

Now move your arm, now move your leg, put on this spring, stand up,

00:32:19.297 --> 00:32:20.777

lie down. Good to see you next week.

00:32:25.924 --> 00:32:34.704

So, we take that group context and can we make people stronger?

00:32:34.884 --> 00:32:40.424

And at the pointy end of the conversation is 6RM, 3RM, can't do,

00:32:40.524 --> 00:32:42.124

you know, all of the things we've been talking about.

00:32:43.224 --> 00:32:47.524

And as we've said, there is a huge scope for making people stronger,

00:32:47.524 --> 00:32:49.544

which doesn't have to be as nerdy as that.

00:32:49.684 --> 00:32:52.344

Well, you can get someone to a 3RM. Like there are things I can do,

00:32:52.504 --> 00:32:56.604

like I'm pretty strong, but I can, there are things I can do on a reformer that

00:32:56.604 --> 00:33:01.024

I can't do three reps, like long stretch on zero springs, for example. Yeah. Right.

00:33:01.324 --> 00:33:04.444

And there are a few other things that I could name, you know,

00:33:04.584 --> 00:33:07.944

most of them on zero springs using body weight. Right.

00:33:08.224 --> 00:33:12.264

Where it's like, yeah, I probably couldn't even do one long stretch on zero springs.

00:33:12.504 --> 00:33:16.504

Right. So it's beyond my one RM. So I could definitely improve certain aspects

00:33:16.504 --> 00:33:17.744

of my strength on the reformer.

00:33:17.744 --> 00:33:20.704

But for most people if you just think of a balanced strength routine

00:33:20.704 --> 00:33:23.404

where you're strengthening your legs and your arms and your back and your abs and

00:33:23.404 --> 00:33:26.264

all of that good stuff it's like you're going to run out of springs

00:33:26.264 --> 00:33:33.704

fairly you know after at a certain point but you can absolutely get people a

00:33:33.704 --> 00:33:38.424

lot stronger and i think the limitation is you can get them you know and i don't

00:33:38.424 --> 00:33:40.724

you know i'm just making up numbers here but i would say you could get somebody

00:33:40.724 --> 00:33:45.604

to be like let's say have double the strength of the average person, right?

00:33:45.704 --> 00:33:48.764

The average just punter walking around the streets.

00:33:49.644 --> 00:33:55.544

But you can't get them to elite strength levels, you know, like a power lifter.

00:33:57.711 --> 00:34:03.571

And what we're saying is that broadly,

00:34:03.571 --> 00:34:12.011

actual strengthening is such a rare thing that using the reformer to get people

00:34:12.011 --> 00:34:16.931

looking sketchy at 15 to 20 reps in a movement that's roughly stable,

00:34:17.071 --> 00:34:19.791

you almost certainly just made that person strong.

00:34:19.991 --> 00:34:25.051

And if they're in your class, they're probably not doing systematic strength training elsewhere.

00:34:25.211 --> 00:34:29.831

Right. Fantastic. And even if they do go to the gym, like if they're the average

00:34:29.831 --> 00:34:33.931

person who chooses 20 RM load and does 10 reps, which is what most people do,

00:34:34.151 --> 00:34:35.611

that's what the research tells us,

00:34:36.111 --> 00:34:40.631

well, they probably will get stronger on a reformer in your class than they

00:34:40.631 --> 00:34:44.491

would in the gym sitting on the chess press machine for five minutes scrolling

00:34:44.491 --> 00:34:47.391

Instagram in between sets of 10 reps at their 20 rep max.

00:34:50.951 --> 00:34:59.271

So so so reformer taught well can be better for strengthening than gym workouts

00:34:59.271 --> 00:35:06.751

taught badly yeah right and then catching that just coming back to that uh woodchopper topic,

00:35:08.211 --> 00:35:14.631

if we say reformer taught well and by that we mean in the context of making

00:35:14.631 --> 00:35:18.251

people stronger can be more effective than the gym,

00:35:19.571 --> 00:35:23.831

the considerations are, is the person stable enough in the movement that they

00:35:23.831 --> 00:35:28.911

can put in, their focus is on the strength output, not the I don't want to fall

00:35:28.911 --> 00:35:30.211

over and hurt myself output.

00:35:30.511 --> 00:35:33.831

Right. And, or, I don't want to fall over and hurt myself, yes.

00:35:34.011 --> 00:35:36.891

And also, I'm focusing on making the movement pretty.

00:35:37.791 --> 00:35:42.211

Because there's an inverse relationship between how pretty you can make it look and how heavy it is.

00:35:44.136 --> 00:35:48.656

And so I just want to add in just one thing. I'm sorry to cut you off there.

00:35:48.796 --> 00:35:52.216

No, no, no. Go, go. So the other thing that happens, like if we were to,

00:35:52.396 --> 00:35:54.676

you know, we're talking about the wood chopper before and we're optimizing for

00:35:54.676 --> 00:35:57.436

load at one end by putting all the springs on, sitting on your heels and just,

00:35:57.516 --> 00:35:59.816

you know, yanking on that strap as hard as possible.

00:36:00.276 --> 00:36:02.876

And then at the other end, we're kind of kneeling up. We've got a light spring

00:36:02.876 --> 00:36:04.096

on. We're making it look balletic.

00:36:04.236 --> 00:36:06.636

We're keeping our shoulders down away from our ears and moving the,

00:36:06.636 --> 00:36:08.756

you know, ballet hands and all of the rest of it stuff.

00:36:08.996 --> 00:36:13.516

Right. So in the balletic version, you are going to,

00:36:13.816 --> 00:36:17.796

depending on how many reps you do and what spring you've got on, but for many people,

00:36:17.956 --> 00:36:22.976

you will feel a burn and get some kind of non-zero amount of strengthening in

00:36:22.976 --> 00:36:29.576

the deltoid, the upper shoulder of the arm that's away from the foot bar side arm, essentially,

00:36:30.196 --> 00:36:32.056

if you do enough reps.

00:36:33.416 --> 00:36:36.096

And so you may you know the other

00:36:36.096 --> 00:36:39.096

thing that happens is as you kind of increase the

00:36:39.096 --> 00:36:41.796

kind of control element of the movement and make it

00:36:41.796 --> 00:36:44.616

kind of more slow and light and balletic and

00:36:44.616 --> 00:36:47.216

focus on the nuances of which way your fingers are pointing and all that kind

00:36:47.216 --> 00:36:52.116

of stuff is you rather than like if you do a really heavy wood chopper sitting

00:36:52.116 --> 00:36:55.176

on your heels with all the springs on you're going to strengthen your obliques

00:36:55.176 --> 00:37:00.096

and your hips and your shoulders and your chest and your intercostals and all

00:37:00.096 --> 00:37:03.416

of these muscles are all contributing, probably your reductors and stuff as well.

00:37:04.096 --> 00:37:06.556

Whereas if you're doing the balletic version, you might get,

00:37:06.596 --> 00:37:10.056

you know, 90% of the strengthening you get will just be in your left deltoid.

00:37:10.816 --> 00:37:13.816

You know, so you're isolating the movement right down to like,

00:37:13.996 --> 00:37:15.736

you know, a tiny fraction of the muscle groups.

00:37:15.836 --> 00:37:19.096

And same, if you're doing like a side-lying leg springs on one spring,

00:37:19.556 --> 00:37:24.916

right, might be fantastic for the posterior fibers of your right gluteus medius, right?

00:37:24.916 --> 00:37:31.056

But the other 611 muscles in your body are doing basically fuck all,

00:37:31.296 --> 00:37:34.236

you know. So it's low value in terms of strengthening.

00:37:34.756 --> 00:37:39.316

So let me get you to unpack something for me and all the people that have asked

00:37:39.316 --> 00:37:42.796

me this question over the years, because I feel like it's something I could

00:37:42.796 --> 00:37:44.276

answer more comprehensively.

00:37:47.215 --> 00:37:52.075

In Pilates, there's a lot of, and I'm not sure where it comes from because it

00:37:52.075 --> 00:38:00.715

doesn't seem to be part of the original work, capital W, movements that are focusing on,

00:38:01.355 --> 00:38:05.055

all right, so if you, like me, for a long time, dear listener,

00:38:05.195 --> 00:38:08.475

think about movements as being for a muscle, right?

00:38:08.755 --> 00:38:13.275

Oh, so when we do this, it's for lower traps or it's for your pec minor or it's

00:38:13.275 --> 00:38:18.515

for your whatever. Well, Joseph's answer to that when people asked him in the

00:38:18.515 --> 00:38:22.135

studio, which muscle is this for, he used to get cranky and go, it's for the body.

00:38:22.815 --> 00:38:28.035

Yeah. Okay, great. Well, that might be the simple answer to my question.

00:38:28.355 --> 00:38:32.835

So when, you know, Raf's just given that example of the light spring,

00:38:33.235 --> 00:38:40.095

one hand in the strap makes steam come off your deltoid, but nothing else really feels anything.

00:38:40.095 --> 00:38:43.555

So maybe there's a non-zero strengthening effect for your deltoid.

00:38:43.555 --> 00:38:48.355

So if you're, like I saw for so long did, thinking that you're doing movements

00:38:48.355 --> 00:38:51.675

and you want people to feel a particular muscle so you know that that particular

00:38:51.675 --> 00:38:54.635

muscle is getting the effect, which you think is strengthening,

00:38:54.835 --> 00:38:56.675

whether it is or not, you don't know.

00:38:57.975 --> 00:39:01.575

So my question for you to unpack for us, Raph, is twofold. One,

00:39:02.215 --> 00:39:07.795

the things that we do for strength training are system-wide, right?

00:39:07.935 --> 00:39:13.235

So like squats, bench press, deadlifts, and in our case, let's say knee stretches

00:39:13.235 --> 00:39:18.975

on heavy springs, or there's multiple muscle groups working together as a system

00:39:18.975 --> 00:39:21.295

to create force against an external load.

00:39:21.575 --> 00:39:26.355

I would say there's a nuance to that.

00:39:26.655 --> 00:39:32.115

Yeah, that's what I want to unpack. All right. So you get, you are strong at a certain thing, right?

00:39:32.235 --> 00:39:35.695

Because strength is, the expression of strength is the ability to exert load

00:39:35.695 --> 00:39:38.595

against force, sorry, to exert force against an external object, right?

00:39:38.675 --> 00:39:41.495

Whether that's to move your own body weight or move the external object or whatever it is.

00:39:42.535 --> 00:39:47.235

And so there's a, there's a muscle contractile force component to that,

00:39:47.315 --> 00:39:48.635

and there's a skill component to that, right?

00:39:48.775 --> 00:39:51.255

So moving a barbell is not the same skill as.

00:39:53.275 --> 00:39:56.275

You know, moving a reformer carriage or doing a handstand, right?

00:39:56.455 --> 00:39:59.315

So doing an overhead press with a barbell is not the same skill as doing a handstand,

00:39:59.495 --> 00:40:02.015

even though it's the same muscle groups, right?

00:40:02.215 --> 00:40:07.135

So there's a muscle group component, and there's also a skill component to every test of strength.

00:40:07.175 --> 00:40:11.075

And so we could say, how long can you do a handstand for? And that might be one test of strength.

00:40:11.595 --> 00:40:14.895

And then how long can you hold this barbell overhead is a different test of strength.

00:40:15.095 --> 00:40:18.675

And they're not going to correlate a lot, right? Because if you've practiced

00:40:18.675 --> 00:40:21.795

holding a barbell overhead, that's going to make you better at doing that.

00:40:21.975 --> 00:40:25.075

You won't necessarily be able to hold a handstand for one second,

00:40:25.075 --> 00:40:28.435

and vice versa with practicing handstands. doesn't mean you can hold a barbell

00:40:28.435 --> 00:40:31.115

overhead, right? Even though you might have the same size shoulder muscles.

00:40:31.295 --> 00:40:33.195

So there's a skill component to everything.

00:40:33.495 --> 00:40:36.455

And so you can be strong at doing swakati.

00:40:37.510 --> 00:40:40.370

Right because that is there's a skill component and there's a muscle

00:40:40.370 --> 00:40:43.330

contraction component to it and you can be strong at

00:40:43.330 --> 00:40:47.130

doing barbell squat or a bench press right the the

00:40:47.130 --> 00:40:50.470

advantage and why i 100 agree

00:40:50.470 --> 00:40:53.630

with kind of the the the underpinning assumption between behind

00:40:53.630 --> 00:40:59.450

what you said is that like those big multi-limb compound movements like squats

00:40:59.450 --> 00:41:04.350

and bench presses and deadlifts and you know long stretches and lunges and things

00:41:04.350 --> 00:41:09.570

like that lunges push-ups push-ups all of those things are superior for developing

00:41:09.570 --> 00:41:12.950

strength is because you've got 612 or 620 or whatever.

00:41:13.250 --> 00:41:16.690

There's some, I think it's about 620, but there's a variable number because

00:41:16.690 --> 00:41:21.570

some people, there are some muscles that aren't present in every person, right?

00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:25.230

So some people have like 720 muscles in their body and some people have 610

00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:27.190

or whatever, but it's like, yeah, somewhere around that.

00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:31.930

You've got about 620 muscles in your body. If you targeted

00:41:31.930 --> 00:41:34.970

everyone individually and you did like 10 reps and

00:41:34.970 --> 00:41:37.730

then you did the other side for 10 reps and then you did three sets of

00:41:37.730 --> 00:41:40.930

that it'd take you like fucking 14 hours to do your whole body workout right

00:41:40.930 --> 00:41:44.010

so if we whereas if we just do like a

00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:47.610

lunge you've done freaking like 200 muscles literally

00:41:47.610 --> 00:41:50.530

right so you can just do all of

00:41:50.530 --> 00:41:53.510

the muscles in a much shorter time by doing bigger compound movements that

00:41:53.510 --> 00:41:56.730

involve multiple limbs right whereas if you're doing swakati great

00:41:56.730 --> 00:42:00.170

the right lateral the right lateral deltoids

00:42:00.170 --> 00:42:03.530

cooked now awesome now you've all you've got is your anterior and posterior

00:42:03.530 --> 00:42:07.110

deltoids on the right and then the left ones and then the other 615 muscles

00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:11.670

right and so it's like well how long is your pilates class you know that you're

00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:18.210

going to work with so there's nothing inherently less strengthening about doing

00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:20.130

an isolation movement like a swakati,

00:42:21.510 --> 00:42:25.470

compared to a lunge or push up or some other bigger compound movement but it's

00:42:25.470 --> 00:42:27.830

just like Like at the time mover level.

00:42:28.130 --> 00:42:33.090

Right. It's just way less efficient, way less efficient, time efficient.

00:42:34.110 --> 00:42:35.610

Yeah. So then-

00:42:37.862 --> 00:42:45.702

The next question that I often work through is, if you do that and you have,

00:42:45.862 --> 00:42:51.782

to quote, muscle imbalances, aren't you continuing to develop those muscle imbalances?

00:42:52.062 --> 00:42:57.962

So if you're, I don't know, if you're quad dominant, for Christ's sake,

00:42:58.342 --> 00:43:00.602

if you're quad dominant in knee extension- Well, I'm just going to stop you

00:43:00.602 --> 00:43:03.422

there because quad dominant is a total bullshit made up thing,

00:43:03.622 --> 00:43:05.682

which there's literally zero evidence for.

00:43:06.282 --> 00:43:08.162

I know, I know. It's just a made up thing. So, but this is the,

00:43:08.222 --> 00:43:10.282

I know, I know. But so this is the question.

00:43:10.482 --> 00:43:15.222

So for the, for the people who haven't got there, haven't understood this yet,

00:43:15.322 --> 00:43:17.562

or maybe they even understand the concept.

00:43:17.782 --> 00:43:24.522

I've often had the question, if I'm doing these big compound movements and focusing

00:43:24.522 --> 00:43:28.822

on force generation, am I not leaving some muscles behind? And so.

00:43:29.282 --> 00:43:32.822

No. Because you've said it's a, right. So unpack that. All right.

00:43:32.822 --> 00:43:37.182

So if, so dear listener, I've done a whole episode on this and presented like

00:43:37.182 --> 00:43:39.342

quite a significant amount of research in that episode.

00:43:39.402 --> 00:43:42.702

And I cannot for the life of me remember which episode it was,

00:43:42.782 --> 00:43:43.642

but I'm going to look it up.

00:43:45.762 --> 00:43:53.382

And the episode, drum roll, is 194, feeling a muscle working doesn't mean it's getting stronger.

00:43:54.002 --> 00:43:57.762

And then also 160, can we even feel muscles activating?

00:43:58.662 --> 00:44:01.922

So both of those, but I would say start with 160 if you want to get all the

00:44:01.922 --> 00:44:06.982

science on this topic of why feeling a muscle working and actually strengthening

00:44:06.982 --> 00:44:09.082

that muscle are just not the same thing.

00:44:13.402 --> 00:44:19.642

So that's not quite what I was asking. So in a compound, a big compound movement

00:44:19.642 --> 00:44:22.342

like a squat or a push up or a lunge or something like that,

00:44:22.682 --> 00:44:30.042

whether you can feel A, B or C muscle working has literally nothing to do with

00:44:30.042 --> 00:44:32.782

whether it is working and whether it's getting stronger, right?

00:44:32.842 --> 00:44:35.362

So just say you can't feel your glutes in a lunge. It's like,

00:44:35.522 --> 00:44:36.282

it doesn't fucking matter.

00:44:36.842 --> 00:44:39.742

They're going to get stronger, right? I guarantee. If you can do a lunge,

00:44:39.822 --> 00:44:41.582

it means your glutes are working. Like if your glute was paralyzed,

00:44:41.922 --> 00:44:44.582

you would not be able to do a lunge. So it's working, I promise you.

00:44:46.142 --> 00:44:50.262

So yes, a lunge is always going to strengthen your glutes and your quads and your adductors, yes.

00:44:50.942 --> 00:44:56.362

But if you're just doing just those big compound movements, there are certain

00:44:56.362 --> 00:44:59.702

muscles that you're going to miss out because those movements don't target things

00:44:59.702 --> 00:45:04.022

like hamstrings, for example, aren't going to get targeted in a lunge or a squat, right?

00:45:04.282 --> 00:45:07.582

And that's not because you can't feel it. It's not because you're working too

00:45:07.582 --> 00:45:10.062

hard. It's just because the biomechanics of that movement, it doesn't matter

00:45:10.062 --> 00:45:13.122

how light you make it, you're never going to fucking strengthen your hamstrings

00:45:13.122 --> 00:45:17.102

in a squat or a lunge because it's just not a good movement to strengthen that muscle in.

00:45:17.222 --> 00:45:21.022

If you want to strengthen your hamstrings, you have to do isolated knee flexion,

00:45:21.822 --> 00:45:24.562

or isolated hip extension, right?

00:45:24.722 --> 00:45:28.662

And yeah, so it's, but it's not about whether you can feel it or how much load there is.

00:45:28.882 --> 00:45:31.882

It's just about, it's just not biomechanically a good movement to challenge that muscle.

00:45:35.161 --> 00:45:40.301

And if you wanted to strengthen your lateral deltoid, the deltoid on the outside

00:45:40.301 --> 00:45:44.641

of your shoulder, well, is swakati a better movement than, say, push-ups?

00:45:44.721 --> 00:45:48.961

Yeah, it is, because push-ups doesn't really target the lateral deltoid, right?

00:45:49.281 --> 00:45:52.001

And you could do push-ups on the wall, right?

00:45:52.061 --> 00:45:56.861

The lightest possible push-ups, focusing 100% of your brain power on activating

00:45:56.861 --> 00:46:00.741

your lateral deltoid, it still wouldn't target your lateral deltoid,

00:46:00.801 --> 00:46:03.641

because it's just not a movement that loads the lateral deltoid, right?

00:46:04.261 --> 00:46:07.361

But and so swakati is a better movement for strengthening

00:46:07.361 --> 00:46:10.321

lateral deltoid than push-ups but not because push-ups is

00:46:10.321 --> 00:46:13.241

load it's just because like swakati is a better movement for

00:46:13.241 --> 00:46:17.201

strengthening lateral deltoid than lunges because lunges don't load the lateral

00:46:17.201 --> 00:46:21.761

deltoid you know it's like it's just not a that movement doesn't load that muscle

00:46:21.761 --> 00:46:27.141

right and and you've already answered it but i'm going to circle you back to

00:46:27.141 --> 00:46:32.921

it the the little movement so you know there's so much in Pilates choreography that,

00:46:33.041 --> 00:46:38.801

and in a lot of cases, it reflects gymnastics training where you do specific

00:46:38.801 --> 00:46:41.861

movements that do actually target a specific muscle.

00:46:42.041 --> 00:46:46.081

Right. Okay. So I'm just going to jump in there because you've totally inspired me with this thing.

00:46:46.161 --> 00:46:50.661

And I think that with that observation, so I just said there are certain movements.

00:46:51.341 --> 00:46:54.121

Just bi-mechanically load certain muscles, but not other muscles,

00:46:54.241 --> 00:46:55.381

right? And that's the case for any exercise.

00:46:55.481 --> 00:46:59.881

There's no one exercise that loads every single muscle in the body efficiently. but

00:46:59.881 --> 00:47:02.861

dear listener the distinction here is not between big muscles

00:47:02.861 --> 00:47:06.041

and small muscles it's not between

00:47:06.041 --> 00:47:11.381

big muscles and small muscles push-ups are like one-handed push-ups with your

00:47:11.381 --> 00:47:17.281

feet on the sofa highly highly loaded push-ups are fucking fantastic for loading

00:47:17.281 --> 00:47:21.721

the little muscles around your shoulder the rotator cuff there's like the number

00:47:21.721 --> 00:47:23.761

one exercise for loading in the rotator cuff.

00:47:24.601 --> 00:47:30.281

Heavy squats with a barbell with like your six rep max, so like,

00:47:30.421 --> 00:47:33.321

you know, one and a half times body weight probably, okay,

00:47:33.941 --> 00:47:38.501

are fantastic for your deep abdominal, you know, for your obliques and rectus

00:47:38.501 --> 00:47:40.481

abdominis, right, and your deep hip rotator.

00:47:40.581 --> 00:47:45.381

So the load isn't what determines whether the big muscles or little muscles are worth.

00:47:45.401 --> 00:47:49.641

It's just the biomechanics of does that movement actually load that muscle?

00:47:49.821 --> 00:47:54.181

And so squats are fantastic for your abs, They're shit for your hamstrings.

00:47:54.301 --> 00:47:56.781

Hamstrings are big muscle, right? Not a little muscle.

00:47:58.181 --> 00:48:02.701

Push-ups are fantastic for your rotator cuff, a little muscle. Terrible for your lats.

00:48:03.101 --> 00:48:06.801

Big muscle, right? So the distinction is not big versus little.

00:48:06.941 --> 00:48:10.861

It's just like where is that muscle situated and doesn't have a biomechanical

00:48:10.861 --> 00:48:15.061

moment to actually produce force in that movement, right?

00:48:15.201 --> 00:48:16.981

And in the case of lats in a push-up, no, it doesn't.

00:48:19.345 --> 00:48:22.625

Something i've wondered about with this is um

00:48:22.625 --> 00:48:25.905

all right so let's let's let's let's let's

00:48:25.905 --> 00:48:29.505

use a the hamstring as an example so

00:48:29.505 --> 00:48:33.065

as you've said in a compound movement uh the

00:48:33.065 --> 00:48:37.965

hamstrings are not changing length under load so it's not effective or as it's

00:48:37.965 --> 00:48:41.725

not as effective for strengthening the hamstrings as it could be right so if

00:48:41.725 --> 00:48:44.425

we want to strengthen the hamstrings effectively we want to move them through

00:48:44.425 --> 00:48:47.965

range of motion under appropriate load so we would need to fix one end of the

00:48:47.965 --> 00:48:52.485

the system so that the hip stays still or the knee stays still and you move at the other end. Right.

00:48:52.685 --> 00:48:56.705

So Jefferson curls or knee flexions. Or like a shoulder bridge on the reformer on a light spring.

00:48:57.145 --> 00:49:04.165

On a light spring, right? Which is effectively the same thing as a prone hamstring curl.

00:49:04.265 --> 00:49:07.565

Right. Or a front split on the reformer on a light spring.

00:49:08.325 --> 00:49:10.065

Fantastic. You're isolating the hip there.

00:49:12.905 --> 00:49:15.925

So the my question is if

00:49:15.925 --> 00:49:18.885

you're because i think this captures the question that

00:49:18.885 --> 00:49:23.585

i was trying to ask for the pilates world if

00:49:23.585 --> 00:49:31.565

i do appropriately loaded hamstring curls or jefferson curls and make my hamstring

00:49:31.565 --> 00:49:39.025

stronger will my overall output in a squat be higher no if i strength Does that make sense?

00:49:39.245 --> 00:49:42.245

Yeah, no. And that's the skill question, right? It's like- No, it won't.

00:49:42.445 --> 00:49:46.005

Yeah. Almost zero transfer. I would say, you know, I haven't seen a study like

00:49:46.005 --> 00:49:50.105

where they did hamstring curls and then did squats, but I would bet money that

00:49:50.105 --> 00:49:51.365

the transfer would be almost zero.

00:49:51.505 --> 00:49:55.445

Like you could spend six months in the gym doing 15 sets a week of hamstring

00:49:55.445 --> 00:49:58.425

curls to failure, you know, double the strength of your hamstrings.

00:49:58.985 --> 00:50:02.045

And at the end of it, your squat one RM would not have improved at all.

00:50:02.865 --> 00:50:07.005

If you didn't do other things as well, right? If you weren't squatting and whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:07.465 --> 00:50:11.165

And if you were doing the other things, it would be the other things that gave

00:50:11.165 --> 00:50:13.985

you the improvement in the squat. Whereas if you just squatted and didn't do

00:50:13.985 --> 00:50:17.905

a single hamstring exercise for the whole six months, you would get better at squatting.

00:50:22.586 --> 00:50:26.186

We're pretty far down the rabbit hole but can i ask you to think on something

00:50:26.186 --> 00:50:30.226

that i lived through and i've never been able to quite make sense of was it

00:50:30.226 --> 00:50:31.886

that acid experience you had in,

00:50:33.046 --> 00:50:37.846

we can talk about that another time on maybe a different podcast but uh no no

00:50:37.846 --> 00:50:43.406

this is um so on my 40th birthday so this is going back a while now i i'd been

00:50:43.406 --> 00:50:47.326

building up my deadlifts and my goal was to do lift 150 kilos on my,

00:50:47.426 --> 00:50:48.686

before my 40th birthday.

00:50:49.146 --> 00:50:53.826

And I got it. I got it on my 40th birthday. I lifted 150 and I needed to have a lie down, right?

00:50:53.846 --> 00:50:57.086

I was like, it was a one, it was a total one rep max. That was,

00:50:57.206 --> 00:50:58.746

that was all I was going to lift.

00:50:59.126 --> 00:51:02.846

And I literally did actually lie down afterwards on the ground next to my barbell

00:51:02.846 --> 00:51:04.046

because I couldn't really stand up.

00:51:05.026 --> 00:51:08.506

And I kind of thought, okay, well, I'm going to give myself a break from this

00:51:08.506 --> 00:51:11.286

for a while. I didn't even think that consciously. I just didn't want to do

00:51:11.286 --> 00:51:12.726

a deadlift again for a while.

00:51:14.026 --> 00:51:16.906

And there were other things in play that had already been

00:51:16.906 --> 00:51:20.166

emerging and so for the next few years all i did was gymnastic training

00:51:20.166 --> 00:51:23.346

i didn't do any barbell loaded work

00:51:23.346 --> 00:51:26.106

all i did was body weight work where if i used weights it was little

00:51:26.106 --> 00:51:28.966

kind of ancillary things but i

00:51:28.966 --> 00:51:31.686

was very systematic about it it's when i developed all the

00:51:31.686 --> 00:51:34.706

stuff around the diploma that we use for the good for everyone program

00:51:34.706 --> 00:51:37.366

and i was so super systematic i trained two to

00:51:37.366 --> 00:51:40.406

three times a week i'd vary my set output i'd

00:51:40.406 --> 00:51:44.406

bury my load input blah blah blah blah blah and got

00:51:44.406 --> 00:51:47.226

really strong and i was doing pistol squats and stuff that i'd never done before

00:51:47.226 --> 00:51:50.586

either and then i went to this event uh at

00:51:50.586 --> 00:51:54.566

a personal training studio that my girlfriend went to and they called it world

00:51:54.566 --> 00:51:58.106

deadlift day and it was just a little internal sort of thing it wasn't actually

00:51:58.106 --> 00:52:02.546

world deadlift and i went along i hadn't done a deadlift in the four years since

00:52:02.546 --> 00:52:07.586

my 40th birthday and so i assumed i'd do like 100 kilos.

00:52:09.166 --> 00:52:11.886

But i just was tracking along with the rest of the crew and i

00:52:11.886 --> 00:52:15.326

went to 130 140 150 and kept

00:52:15.326 --> 00:52:19.666

going and i got a one rm of 201 kilos and

00:52:19.666 --> 00:52:22.746

i was like i don't know where that came from like i haven't been training deadlifts

00:52:22.746 --> 00:52:26.726

i've got i've got never really i've got two two two things that i think explain

00:52:26.726 --> 00:52:31.406

that first one is uh so strength has a skill component but also just a muscle

00:52:31.406 --> 00:52:34.786

mass component right so two people equally skilled one with bigger muscles that

00:52:34.786 --> 00:52:36.186

person's going to be stronger, right?

00:52:36.346 --> 00:52:39.806

Or the same person, same amount of skill, four years go past,

00:52:39.906 --> 00:52:41.786

you've been training gymnastics, your muscles have got bigger,

00:52:42.066 --> 00:52:44.346

you're going to be stronger, right? Yeah.

00:52:44.606 --> 00:52:47.006

So bigger muscles are stronger muscles. So that's one thing.

00:52:47.186 --> 00:52:50.546

So that gymnastics training might not have developed your deadlifting skill

00:52:50.546 --> 00:52:54.246

at all, but it probably developed your glutes and your hamstrings and your back

00:52:54.246 --> 00:52:57.786

extensors and all of that stuff, right? And so just, yeah, more muscle mass, right?

00:52:57.966 --> 00:53:00.966

Is my guess. The second thing is the crowd.

00:53:02.439 --> 00:53:06.099

When you've got people watching, and we've got empirical research on this,

00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.719

people perform better when people are watching.

00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:12.939

Wow. Right? So I was trying to impress my girlfriend or whoever.

00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:14.359

Yeah, and all the other people there.

00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.759

And it's, you know, I mean, you could say that we're trying to impress the girlfriend,

00:53:16.779 --> 00:53:19.499

but it's also just like we get more stimulated, we get more,

00:53:19.499 --> 00:53:22.679

you know, fired up when there's other people around, right?

00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:27.439

We've got research saying, you know, when people get better results with personal

00:53:27.439 --> 00:53:30.999

trainers, not because personal trainers are better at programming,

00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:35.179

it's just because like they don't stop when it gets hard. The personal training makes you keep going.

00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:40.339

And so having that other person that just pushes you beyond what you thought you could do before.

00:53:40.459 --> 00:53:45.199

And so I would be a thousand percent certain that if you had continued deadlift

00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.659

training through that time, you would have hit like 250 on that day. Right.

00:53:48.999 --> 00:53:51.939

Right? Because of the skill component, et cetera. Right, right.

00:53:52.059 --> 00:53:57.239

But there was just, you've built muscle mass, awesome, and you already had the skill, right?

00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:02.999

And beyond a certain point, it's mostly the muscle mass. So like when powerlifters

00:54:02.999 --> 00:54:07.319

start out, they develop strength very quickly and out of proportion to the muscle.

00:54:07.399 --> 00:54:11.099

So how much muscle they get and how much strength they develop are not synchronized

00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.599

in the early, like you get really strong without putting on a lot of muscle.

00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:18.599

But then over years, to get stronger, like the only way to get stronger,

00:54:18.619 --> 00:54:24.799

if you've been powerlifting 10 years, muscle mass and strength correlate almost perfectly.

00:54:24.999 --> 00:54:28.799

Like how much you can lift and how much muscle mass you have correlate almost perfectly.

00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:34.959

So at the beginning, for the first X number of years, you're developing skill as well as muscle mass.

00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:40.459

But then at a certain point in the deadlift, your skill kind of maxes out, right?

00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.939

And there's not a lot more skill development available in that particular movement.

00:54:45.259 --> 00:54:48.079

But you can keep getting more and more and more and more muscle mass.

00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:52.879

So maybe you were relatively close to your maximum skill development,

00:54:53.059 --> 00:54:55.799

maybe not totally maxed out, but relatively close to it.

00:54:57.179 --> 00:55:01.319

And it's a relatively simple movement. So like four years later,

00:55:01.499 --> 00:55:04.079

it's like you hadn't forgotten that much about it. Still remember the fundamentals. Right?

00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.679

And you just developed more muscle mass and you had your girlfriend watching

00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:11.979

and maybe you were eating better or who knows, you'd slept better that,

00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:13.759

maybe had more coffees that day, I don't know.

00:55:13.939 --> 00:55:17.379

But there's lots of other variables that could explain it. Yeah, okay.

00:55:18.919 --> 00:55:21.859

Good talk. All right, well, let's wind that back to our- I'm sorry.

00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:28.719

I've got to wind it right all over there. Okay. Because here in Pilates Elephant's

00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.959

Land, it's dinner time, and I've got family coming over.

00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:36.139

Good talk. Thanks, mate.

00:55:37.200 --> 00:55:43.386

Music.

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