Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories podcast. I'm Andrew Glessner. In this episode, I'm joined by theoretical physicist, cosmologist, and author Paul Davies to discuss amongst other things his new book, quantum two point o, the past, present, and future of quantum physics. Paul is a regents professor at Arizona State University where he directs the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science, a place as he
puts it for cool stuff. I have to say I agree with him on that and you will when we talk about that very shortly. But it tackles everything from the nature of time and consciousness to the origins of life and the universe itself. We're gonna explore what he calls the next great quantum revolution, quantum computing, teleportation, cryptography, and sensing.
Along the way, we'll discuss why Schrodinger's equation remains so central and how quantum ideas are reshaping not just technology, but art, and what might happen when quantum information science meets artificial intelligence. From teleporting particles to the ethical challenges of AI and even quantum jazz, it's a wide ranging conversation, and I began by asking him about the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science.
I went to ASU in 2006, with a mission that, had a budget behind it, provided by the university president who's a great visionary. And the idea was to set up a center which is, small in terms of numbers of people, but big in terms of its agenda, to, dwell on foundational questions in in science across all the sciences. My profession is really physics, astrophysics, cosmology.
But I've also worked in astrobiology, it's now now called, which touches on the problem, the origin of life, where physics and chemistry turns into biology, and the nature of consciousness, the nature of time, the origin of the universe, the place of human beings in the great cosmic scheme of things, you know, all of these sort of profound questions. The way I like to put it is that, it's really a center for cool stuff.
So whatever people seem to be talking about at dinner parties, and at the moment, it seems to largely be AI, and is it intelligent, and is it conscious, and all those things, you know, we we pitch in, and we we do that. We have, a sort of in house research program, which is a subset of all the things I've mentioned, but we hold workshops, on anything that's pushing the boundaries. So if there's a subject that's struggling to get out, and, for example, quantum biology,
is there such a thing? Can we take it seriously? That things like that, we like to zero in on and bring people together and say, well, can we turn this into a a proper discipline? Can we create research projects and collaborations based upon, deliberations over the last two or three days? So that's that's how we'd like to operate. And we used to do about six a year, because I did a lot of cancer research. And so, four of these were funded by the National Cancer Institute.
We used to push ideas, new ideas about the nature and origin of cancer. That, program was wound up, and so we're down to about two a year now, maybe three. How often does the the quantum realm of science, if you like, come into those discussions? I suppose with the workshops, it's always hard to avoid saying something quantum because, of course, it permits all of science, really. But those that focus specifically on quantum questions, probably only about, you know, one in five,
maybe even less than that. As a matter of fact, I'm planning one in, April, which will be on, whether it often goes under the name of, biophotons. Living tissues emit photons, it turns out. No controversy anymore about that. Low a very low level specific frequency photons. What do they do? You say is it just a concomitant process that goes along with something basic like metabolism,
or is there a signaling function? And is there anything sort of seriously quantum about it, like sub quasonian statistics or, coherence or something. It's all, wide open. So we as a matter of fact, our next one will be very much in this sort of quantum area. Amazing. Okay. So I have in front of me a book which is called, Quantum two point o, the past, present, and future of quantum physics. I've been delving deep into it and enjoying
it. But could you tell me well, tell everyone, what what is quantum two point o? So I think, it it won't have escaped people's attention that quantum mechanics has, pervaded, pretty much all of science and technology. It's the most successful scientific theory, in history, and it's a 100 years old this year because, depending a little bit on what you go back to. But if you go back to, Erwin Schrodinger's work and his famous equation and Heisenberg's work, then it's just about a 100 years ago.
And, it's given us all sorts of familiar things like the laser and the transistor and superconductors, and it explains electronics and AI and all these things people are familiar with. But, the at rock bottom, this is a theory that makes, no sense. So after a hundred years of extraordinary success, physicists are still squabbling over what it all
means. Now this is, has a new twist now because some of the, what used to be called thought experiments, which were devised decades ago to try and sort of drill down into the philosophical aspects of this subject, the nature of reality at a quantum level, those experiments have been done and have been turned into a resource that can be used, for next great quantum leap forward, which, I'm calling quantum two point o. That seems to be a fairly universal description, but a more formal description
is quantum information science. So we're familiar with the fact that quantum gadgets like computers process information, but they do it in a rather crude way. The gates and switches, and they're on and off and so on. And with a quantum computer, what you do is embed the information in the quantum degrees of freedom itself. So that's possible to manipulate individual photons and electrons and sculpt wave functions, quantum states, to order. It's possible to, carry out,
some amazing new things. So I just mentioned quantum computing about this quantum teleportation, quantum cryptography, and a whole area of quantum sensing, which is commercially, burgeoning at the moment. So we're we're on the cusp of this next great quantum revolution where we go beyond just using, the quantum properties of matter, for technology. We're now being able to apply it to the concept of information itself,
and that's very exciting. And we'll give a further twist to the whole question about what does it mean and how can we make sense of a world, in which quantum mechanics with all its weirdness, seems to pervade not just technology, but the whole of human society now. We're feeling the effects of this technology, pretty much everything we do.
You you mentioned Schrodinger earlier, and I I get the impression from reading the book that may I mean, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but maybe, you feel like his contributions might have been more important. Should should we be celebrating one hundred years next year if you see what I mean? It's true. The Schrodinger's equation, was published in January 1926. And so, we could say that is the real centenary. But, of course, the work was done in, 1925, and, Heisenberg's
effort was also in 1925. And UNESCO declared 2025 to be, the official centenary, the year of quantum science and technology. So it's it's always hard to know with huge developments in science exactly when to open the champagne. Yeah. Okay. But you think Schrodinger's, equation is more instrumental, should we say? Well, it it
really is the starting point. If you're teaching quantum mechanics, what you do is you, say, here is the equation that you must use, and students often want to know, well, where did that come from? And that whole backstory is fascinating in its own way. But, usually, that's the starting point. And then you solve it for, you know, fairly simple minded situations like, the square well potential and the harmonic oscillator and the hydrogen atom and so
on. And you very soon find that Schrodinger's equation gives you, a very powerful way of explaining the properties of atoms and subatomic particles and, molecules and so on. And it's it's the way in which you do, practical quantum mechanics, the applications of quantum mechanics. Now you can, take a step back and say, well, what does it really mean, and how should we understand it in a more abstract way?
And it's true that a lot of cutting edge research really goes beyond Schrodinger's equation as a practical tool. And, we define vectors in infinite dimensional spaces and various sorts of algebras to apply to them and theorems approved about those and so on. So you don't have to work with something that seems sort of intuitive like a wave. You can, have this more abstract approach. But I think the starting point really for almost all students and the starting point historically
was that equation. So I I've been reading the book, you know, in stolen moments around my my day job. And everybody who sees me not everybody. Lots of people who see me reading the book say, oh, quantum physics. That's really fast. I don't understand that at all. That's really interesting. That's quite a common thing. I don't understand it. It's really interesting. Why why did you want to write this book? Because there are other books on quantum
physics. Right? So what what does this one bring to the table that the others don't? You have to look at my career. I think this is my 30 book, actually, if you depending on how you count, some are co authored. And, many years ago, I wrote a book called Quantum Fields in Curved Space. It's a quantum field theory, an aspect of, applied to gravitational systems, aspect of quantum gravity. I read a textbook called quantum mechanics based on, a course that I, I taught.
And then in all these other books, the you have to deal with quantum physics in some sense. So if you're talking write a book on cosmology or black holes or whatever it is, inevitably, quantum mechanics is going to come in. And if you look back at those books as, you know, a chapter or a few sections or something in which I hurriedly go through, well, these are the basics that you need to understand this particular narrative.
But I have never really, at least not for many many decades, sat down and tried to pull it all together as a subject, as a particular subject. And the centenary seemed like a very obvious time to do that, but also because it now I think, the word quantum is on everybody's lips. You you you work on a newspaper if anyone does that anymore. But the, you know, the news feeds are
full of quantum. There's some quantum there. And this is largely this quantum two part data, the the whole quantum information revolution that's taking place. It's the sentiment going into it. Governments are, backing it, and it start dominating research, in, across a range of of disciplines. So it just seemed to me that this was a very opportune time. But I didn't wanna write a book just about, well, quantum mechanics is great and it's given us all this technology,
and now it's gonna give us more. I my real interest is in, well, what does it all mean? How do we make sense of this theory that says, you know, deep down among atoms and molecules, there isn't anything quite like a real world in the everyday sense. And so how is it that we can probe or investigate this fuzzy, uncertain, weird quantum realm and get answers that can be communicated between you and me. You know, did has the atom decayed? Yes. I heard that that that Geiger
counter got click. You know, we can we can do that. We can, investigate with technology, investigate what is happening at the atomic and subatomic realm, and then make sense of it in the everyday world. But patching together the reality, the fuzzy reality of the subatomic world with the everyday reality, of tables and chairs, is is unfinished business. And there's a dozen or so, different proposals for how we should do that. Who do you think, who do you want to read the book?
Right? If you if you could pick a particular section of society to read the book, who would it be? Well, you know, this is, what used to be called the the proverbial layman. That's somewhat sexist term. But this would be someone not necessarily, with a thorough knowledge of physics, but it would be someone used to, science and the scientific method and and, have some sort of background in thinking about science, but an interest in the deep philosophical
aspects. So it would certainly appeal to philosophy students or or people, with, in everyday pre professions who are interested in the big questions of existence. And I've always written about those, the things like the origin of the universe, nature of time, nature of consciousness. And quantum physics touches on all of those areas, and that they're all referred to in the book. I have sections on all of those things. And so, I, you know, I hope this appeals to a rather broad range of people.
But what I didn't wanna do was just, you know, another book on, well, what does quantum mechanics all mean? I wanted to write about, this extraordinary effort that is now going into quantum two point zero, that all of this technology are really dazzling technology. And some of this is really just sort of on the age of of doability, things like quantum teleportation, you know, can be done. Is it going to be turned into a practical tool for,
like, a quantum Internet? Well, my university has a whole lot of people beavering away to try to, understand that. It's a silly question really because I don't think the answer is there. But but how quantum teleportation, tell me how soon in terms of that, computing aspect of it, how soon is that gonna be a reality? Right. Well, I think when people talk about teleportation, they think of Star Trek and Beam Me Up, Scotty, and all that stuff.
What does it mean? It means sending something from a to b without passing through the space in between. And, you can do that in quantum systems, with a great deal of care. And you do it by using a property, of quantum systems called entanglement. And this goes right back to the culture wars of the nineteen thirties because, one of the people who kicked quantum theory off, Albert Einstein,
never really liked it. In fact, he, was impeccably opposed to it, and the more it became developed, the, more of a skeptic he was. And the rest of the community got behind it, and in particular, Niels Bohr was the great champion of what we might think of as the orthodox or textbook view, sometimes called the Copenhagen view of quantum mechanics.
And the two of them would, bicker at conferences, and Einstein was always trying to find flaws in quantum mechanics with thought experiments, which say, well, this can't be right because if we did this and, measured that and so on, we get an absurd answer. And he cooked up one of these in 1935, and, it involves two particles which, fly apart from a common origin, and, each is separately investigated, maybe on opposite sides of the lab or
even opposite sides of the galaxy. And so, you will have, a proverbial physicist called Alice and Bob, and Alice will measure her particle, and Bob will measure his particle. And it's very clear from the formalism of quantum mechanics that what happens, in Alice's lab and what happens in Bob's lab, are linked in some sort of, peculiar telepathic manner. That means that there is a degree of correlation in what they find over and above what could possibly exist, if these particles had all along
possessed the properties that they are measured. So this goes to the heart of what, quantum mechanics is about. So Einstein hoped that, beneath the quantum realm of uncertainty and fuzziness, there was a sort of more rational classical world. When you make a measurement in quantum mechanics, according to the Copenhagen view, the official view, you don't uncover a preexisting reality. You create that reality or the specific aspects of that reality by the very act of measurement.
And you see Einstein, didn't like that. So he when the particles fired apart, he wanted them to already have well defined properties, and that Alice and Bob merely discovered what
those properties were. But it turns out when you actually do the real experiment, which you didn't have until the nineteen eighties, but Einstein was wrong, that it is the case, that, the these correlated particles that we're now calling entangled entangled particles, possess a degree of linkage, a sort of telepathic linkage that could not be explained if they were born originally or emerge from a common
origin with well defined properties in advance. The only way you get around that is having some faster than light communication, because Einstein didn't want that because of his theory of relativity. So this thing called entanglement is now the resource that, it it's not just a matter of testing this, dispute between Einstein and Bohr, which was original motivation. It's now a resource
that can be exploited in technology. One of the exploitations is in this teleportation, that if, the a third person, Charlie, sends an entangled pair of particles to Alice and Bob, they can Alice can manipulate, her entangled particle with the information she wants to send. And, Bob will then be able to recover that information at the other end without it actually being transmitted down any sort of, opt optical fiber or anything.
And, there's a there's a caveat there that in order for that to happen, Alice, and Bob have to communicate the old fashioned way, say, with the telephone, to give some instructions about who measured what when. So you can't use this to send information faster than light. There's a common misconception that entanglement does enable faster than light communication. It doesn't. But it does mean, that, you can transmit and I'm talking not about transmitting,
Captain Kirk. I'm talking about transmitting, you know, one qubit of information. The qubit does for quantum information sounds what the bit does for conventional, computing. And so you can transmit a key bit. It's been done. Now Paul went on to explain how these quantum experiments could translate into a real world game changing technology or the quantum Internet. It's a fascinating area, but I really want you to read that section of the book. And if you do read no other bit,
just delve into that. It's really fascinating area. Anyway, back to the conversation with Paul. So I think we've, you know, quantum information technology, quantum two point o has really got these, three legs. We've got, quantum, computing is the one we hear all about. Then the whole of the sort of quantum cryptography and, Internet and, tele population and then quantum sensing. And I think in terms of can I go out and buy a quantum gizmo that's going to, increase the profit in my company,
The answer is yes? There are a lot of quantum sensors, being used and being developed. So that's the field that is really moving fast in the commercial space. But we hear more, I think, about quantum computing because some of the big players like Google and so on are involved in that. I'd that has just reminded me, of something I was reading about in your book, which did worry me, to be honest, which was about,
AI and quantum computers. So this goes right to the heart of the weirdness of quantum mechanics and its mismatch with daily experience. So in daily life, we think that there's a real world out there, and it's in a well defined state. And and that seems to, work well enough, to to navigate human life. But then we start investigating this quantum realm.
And the best way that I can explain it is if you take something like an electron or an atom, that a a quantum state for one of those, generally speaking, isn't doesn't, correspond to a well well defined properties like having a position or a motion or anything like that, that all of those factors are uncertain. And how should we think about that? Well, the the way that I like is that there are parallel alternative realities.
You'll often read an atom can be in many places at once in in quantum mechanics. What do you mean by that? It really means that there are many potential positions that an atom could have, and you can set up a quantum state in which you could have an infinite number of potential positions. And one way to think about that is that these are alternative possible realities blended together to form an amalgam.
And and the then the question is, you know, how how are we to understand, that how that amalgam when we make a measurement, that we get a definite result. One one of those possible worlds gets promoted to a real world. It's the winner, so to speak, in a great cosmic lottery. And that process of measurement, is is deeply mysterious. We still don't know what it is, how it is that the, the the amalgam, turns into a a specific winner.
So one way of thinking about, the quantum realm is an infinite number of possibilities. And mathematically, we can describe that as like an infinite dimensional space. Now now you and I don't live in an infinite dimensional space. We see three, spatial dimensions, one of time, and that's it. And yet, you know, the atom lives in this, infinite dimensional realm. So if you could imagine being an atom,
what would you experience? You would experience something infinitely richer, than than we can experience in daily life. And so, if you think that reality is really at the quantum level, we think that's the sort of place basement of reality. The quant quantum mechanics sits at the bottom of our explanatory chain and that the everyday world is an approximation for the quantum world. But that but if you ask, you know, how does god see the universe? Well, it would be through quantum eyes.
And so, then you have to think, well, if we only ourselves see a tiny, tiny, in impoverished view of the the deep quantum reality, what would it be like, if you had a conscious being on intelligence who could explore the whole of that infinite dimensional space? It's it's called a Hilbert space after, David Hilbert, the mathematician, but it doesn't matter.
The whole point is that this, that the quantum realm, which is, an just this infinite amalgam of all these possible realities, if you could actually inhabit that or observe it in some way, then it's very hard to imagine, you know, what what that experience would be like. Now we can't do it, but, supposing we were to build now everyone is building talk about AI, artificial intelligence. Is he conscious? Is he intelligent? And so on. I think that most people would say, well,
not yet. We haven't got there yet. But now, supposedly we do. Supposed we get to the stage where, we would say, well, AI, it's we might as well assume that it's the we're dealing with a conscious agent, and this could come quite soon. Then what would happen if we combine this with with quantum two point zero? And there is indeed an effort to to build quantum artificial intelligence, QAI.
And then we can think, well, what what what would this entity, this agent that could explore the whole Hilbert space, what would it have to say to us, and what sort of problems could it solve that we could never ever solve even with the help of our conventional computers?
So it does open up, something, science fiction realm at the moment, but philosophically, disturbing or exciting or challenging, depending on which way you want to look at it, notion that a conscious quantum entity, would be, I I imagine, incomprehensible to us in terms of its experiences. And and it may be that we're gonna build one of those within the lifetime of some of the people listening to us. Do you think we should?
Well, what we're into here, there's this debate taking place just with conventional AI, that at what point do we hand over, to to these, things and let them run our our our world for us. You even get into it in a smaller way with quantum sensors because I mentioned that, you can you can use them to monitor human brainwaves. You you can wear a helmet, with quantum magnetometers in them that can pick up a tiny magnetic field that penetrate the skull. And then you can couple the,
subject to a computer. You could use that to control robot arms or, vehicles or, anything you want, really. Once you you couple the human brain to a computer or to the Internet. And that raises the question, does this enhance what it means to be human, or does it diminish that? In other words, are we going to become like a node, just a mere node in something much bigger? And is that is that good or is it bad? And it it depends on on
your, philosophical point of view. There are religions in which, immersing yourself in the great sort of cosmic consciousness is regarded as progress. That doesn't the Western tradition tends to, be, I think, very suspicious of the idea of, surrendering something, of what it what it needs to be human to some bigger system. So that's that's something that would have to be, be fought out e even before we get to the idea of quantum AI. It's bad enough for just AI.
Yes. You know, we're I look at the world, and I'd I'd I don't necessarily think that all the people in all the countries should be the people in power. Right? I think there could be better options than that. Yes. It's a very uncontentious question. People could draw their own conclusions as to who I'm referring to. But if that's what we do as humans, why why shouldn't we give it over to, you know, something
that maybe new Northern Us? Why shouldn't we give power over our lives, our world, our universe to something that maybe could understand things better than me? I keep changing my mind on this very topic. I think, you know, look at the state of the world today, and I think, well, we're we're electing in some countries. We elect, individuals, and then, they seem to make a hash of things.
And then I think to myself, well, the people I I know who I really admire and who wants to change the world for the better are not gonna do it through the political process. They do it through through writing or developing new technology or starting foundations or something. And so it is getting to the stage where you think, would we be better off as a species, being managed by AI? So but I tell you what the danger is. We're now developing, as it were, the first
generation of AI. So maybe QAI is not far behind. And, I think everybody recognizes there are dangers of sort of unrestrained AI development, that we ought to have a framework, ethical framework, practical framework, the you know, don't let these things loose, if they're gonna go berserk and destroy us, or don't put them in charge of battlefield or anything. That's all people worry about all that. So we can imagine, constructing the necessary, software, for these things, which would embed,
roughly speaking, human values. And, Isaac Asimov was, the great visionary. He writes about robotics way back in the fifties, and there are the three laws, Asimov's laws of robotics. And you think, well, okay. We could we could design this first generation of ARs, to to do no evil. We'd we'd argue over what that means, but we could imagine doing it. But the trouble is the technology is moving so fast that AI is already developing the next generation of AI and the next generation and so on.
So supposing we surrender, the management of the planet to, a a system of AIs, and we sit back thinking, well, we can enjoy all this now. You know, it's we can just have a good life and let the AIs worry about climate change or, supply chain management or all of the things, starvation. It would well outsource it to them. But then, the the the next generation of AIs, if if you you know, I think about
evolution. You know that with each generation, there are accidents and glitches and things don't get, passed on quite right. And, over a million generations, can we really believe that in the far future, that the AI is running things, are going to still embed those human values? I think it's very, very unlikely. So once you unleash this AI world with its downstream consequences for end generation AIs, that's starting to look really scary,
but it may be unstoppable. I feel like every conversation, every podcast that I'm doing at the moment could end up in, you know, a black hole of, what is AI going to bring to us. So I wanna just get back to the the quantum side of things. And with this being the International Year of Quantum, it we've we've covered a few different areas of it over the course of the year, including, you know, conversations with quantum physicists, but also artists who have delved into the world of
quantum in their work. People like Serena Scappanini, who was in a podcast with us recently, and Fliss Inkpen as well. And there's something in your book about quantum music. Could you tell me just a bit about that? Well, this I I have to admit this is a little bit of a gimmick, but some people have, decided that they, would like to couple musical instruments to a quantum computer.
And, the thing about quantum mechanics is that it's got, intrinsic elements of of randomness to it, but it's not, like chaos. And so, if you play your music, through or in collaboration with a quantum computer, it's going to be a very, novel type of jazz innovation because there'll be some unexpected elements, and then there'll be some coherence, to it and so on.
And so I think that, you know, it's a little bit of an effort to try to, to, I guess, the bigger thing is that we've been talking science a lot about the technology that comes from it. But great scientific revolutions always have implications for the arts as well. And quantum music is probably just the first, of the way in which, quantum information science. Because when we get to the information, we're combining it with things like creativity and knowledge and understanding, and art.
So, quantum information science will impact the arts, I think, right across. So I can imagine, even, with drama and the performing arts where, you'd embark on a play, but you wouldn't know how it's going to end, partway through because you'd have a a quantum AI or something would be the or more modestly just a capital quantum computer that would be sort of rewriting the script as he went along. So, you know, I think there's there's a lot of an entertaining aspect that could come out of quantity.
No. Absolutely. Now the book, is or I think entertaining is definitely a word I would use, to describe it. And I think that when you described the person for whom it is meant, I felt like you were describing me, to be perfectly honest with you. But my my my feeling is that it doesn't really matter whether I understand this stuff. It gives me great joy to try and understand it and to read the book.
Right? But does it actually matter if people like me know about the quantum realm that's got, you know, permeating through everything? Well, the so it's often being said where when people say nice things about my writing, they say, well, you know, that was wonderful. And then I read I read your book or I read your article, and and I thought, oh,
now I understand this obscure subject. But, you know, the following day when I tried to explain to my mother, I realized there is there is an art in, dealing with very technical and very intellectual challenging subjects, to find analogies and shortcuts and ways of sort of conveying the spirit of something, without having to get into the weeds of the technicalities.
And I think that this book I mean, I'd probably get more into the weeds with this book I have with previous books because some of the experiments are the delayed choice experiments and the quantum erase and so on, I'll go into in quite some detail because they're so bizarre when you if you take the trouble to to, go through them. The nature of reality is so weird, that I felt it was worth spelling all that out.
Now as to whether, it matters whether members of the public have grasp of this, I think I'm writing for people for whom this subject is sort of intriguing and entertaining and also pushes the boundaries for them to think about what what is my place in the world? How should I understand the world? But there's also the sense in which because we live in a world that's dominated by quantum technology, people have some idea what is this thing. Because they used to work quantum,
you know, as if that explains everything. Oh, it's quantum. Oh, yeah. I I know what you mean. But but I I think people should have some understanding of of how those ideas came into society over a hundred years ago, and and how important it is. And and it's not just a label. I mean, it is actually a a scientific discipline. And as I said earlier, the most successful scientific theory, in in history. So I think people ought to know something
about it. It's you know, it it there was famous writer, Charles Snow, c p Snow, who wrote about their two cultures, some decades ago. I'd bemoan the fact that, at high table at, at a college, where you're mixing people from different disciplines, you would be appalled if one of the scientists said, well, I don't know anything about William Shakespeare. You know? Was he a poet? I think he wrote plays, didn't he? But, yeah,
I know nothing about it. You you really would feel that that was a a a terrible commentary on their education. But if, you know, Shakespearean scholar said, I've never heard of the second law of thermodynamics. You know, one of the most arguably the most profound of the laws of physics, then they get away with that. They could almost be proud. Like, oh, I never involved myself before. Like like, second law of thermodynamics.
So I see see quantum physics now as playing the same role as the second order of thermodynamics did in previous generations. It is something so central to our society and to our technology and to but more than that, to, understanding what what is the nature of reality and and human observation, and how do we fit in to the universe as systems in in its it's the universal material system that deep down, it's got all this weird stuff going on, and peep people need to know that.
I'd like to thank Paul Davies for talking to me for this episode of the Physics World Stories podcast. You can find out much more about quantum mechanics from quantum origins to quantum cosmology in Paul Davies' new book, Quantum two point o, the past, present, and future of quantum physics. You'll also find a review of that book by Physics World's editor, Matin Jirani, in the opinion and review section of the Physics World website. But, of course, we'll also post a link to it from the podcast
pages. And, of course, there's plenty more quantum science and everything else shaping the future of physics over at physicsworld.com. We'll be back next month for the final episode of twenty twenty five, and thank you very much for listening.