Ahndraya Parlato - Episode 79

Including my own, the engineer extraordinaire. Very high standards. Impossible standards, Mister Michael Choven Dalton. Well, I just sent you a photograph. Yes, I'm trying. I'm in a cocoon. I've used 123456 clamps, six woodworking clamps, and I have two big cloth drop cloths, one throw blanket, and two pieces random pieces of rug pad. So you can't say I'm not trying.

Yes, well, I moved into a new space too, and I've been tacking up sound absorbing tiles all over my wall. So my wall is more tile than wall now. Yeah, I mean, I can't keep doing this. This is ridiculous. So I'm gonna have to. Yeah, we're gonna have to figure out something permanent.

Yes, yes. But for now, when I was putting this all up earlier this morning, Peanut was in. I'm in my office, which I think I've mentioned is a separate building on my property. It's at my new place. I think it's about ten by 12ft. Anyway, there's a little two seater couch in here. And peanut was in here with me. And by the time I finished making this cocoon, peanut and I were completely separated. And she had no idea she was on the couch. How to get from the. She's just. I trapped peanut under very heavy, very heavy drop cloth.

But I rescued her also sound absorbing, so shove around. Yeah, it's true. So how are you? I know you've had some Covid in the house. Yes, yes. My wife Cynthia tested positive. Yeah, I know. And, you know, honestly, she feels okay. Just like a cold. But it just. The tests keep coming back positive, so just gotta wait it out. Yeah. Are you okay? Yeah, I've been negative, so. So, yeah, I'm okay. The kids are okay. Yep. Just. We don't quarantine like we used to.

Yeah. Cause, you know, we're also heavily vaccinated, so. Right. Yeah. Well, it is going around again, so everyone, if you don't realize that, be careful. I mean, obviously we are most of us vaccinated, if not all of the people who listen to this podcast. Right. I think our audience is probably pro vaccine. Yes. I'm gonna say that they are, but it is. I know a lot of people who have it again, and so, yeah, just take care of yourself, everyone. Absolutely. Yep.

So getting to today's episode. I love this episode. I got to speak with Andrea Parlado, who I love, who's such an interesting, smart, creative, warm, funny, just really unique person. Her practice is really unique, the work she creates and the way she thinks about making work. And I just love talking to her. What did you think about the episode?

Yeah. So you really do an in depth conversation on her book, who has changed and who is dead, published by Mac. And this is such a book, filled with both a sense of sadness and tragedy, but also humor. And this is something that Andrea will, of course, talk about in the show, but this kind of way of processing the great tragedy that she has had in her life. And she uses multiple techniques, multiple media, beautifully written text, and you really do a deep dive into how you think about a photo book, how you think about photography. Andrea talks about becoming a little bit bored with just looking at photos and how she can get excited again about making photography.

Yeah. I mean, you spend all this time on this book, but the conversation goes in so many different places. It does. Because it's about life. Yes, exactly.

Speaking of which, I don't think we've ever issued a trigger warning on this show, but I do want to say that it's interesting because so much of the conversation, this episode, is delivered in a way that's almost lighthearted. But there's a moment where we discuss a violent incident, and we do discuss loss, and the subject of suicide comes up. I don't get in depth about it, but it's part of this story. And so I do want to just mention that for folks, it's obviously not for me or for Michael to determine, you know, what each of you listening can handle. I don't think that this will be. Again, it's hard for me to determine what you listening can handle, but I don't think this will be too difficult for folks.

Right. I don't think there's a level of detail that. No. That is too alarming. No. And it's a very, very, very, almost fast and definitely small part of the conversation, but it is in there. And so I just want to mention that. Yeah. And we talked about how you spend a good deal of time in this book. Andre also introduces some new work that's coming, and that's actually pretty exciting towards. The end of the show. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

So if this is Thursday, June 20, when we release the show, and we know a lot of you listen, as soon as the show is released, because we can see the numbers, there is still time to register for our sponsor's upcoming talk picture, the small darkroom. We'll be hosting Yelena Yumchuk. She'll be talking about her new book, Melanka, published by audition. Patrick Frey. You can RSVP for that at their Instagram. At their Instagram. What the hell is that? You can, you can RSVP for this event on their Instagram at phtSDR and click on their link tree. And yeah, that should be, hopefully that will be from six to 08:00 p.m. june 20.

Fantastic. Thank you. And I just want to say that he's gonna cut all that out, but I want to acknowledge that Michael just made about five bloopers in a row. I know I've only had a half a mug of coffee so far. Michael was the blooper king this morning. Yay. And you'll never know. He only leaves mine. And that's right. All right, I'll leave a couple in.

And thank you. Picture house, the small dark room, as usual, for being our sponsor. We love you guys and so appreciate you. And I also want to just say, I saw the other day I was on Apple Podcasts. I don't think anyone's written a review for the podcast for a really long time. So if you listen to the podcast, we've asked you to donate, which some of you have done, but could you folks who have not written a review just have to write a line or two, you know, just go into chat GPT, they'll do it for you.

That's right. You don't even have to expend many, you know, brain cells, but we'd really appreciate it. So please, yes, rate, review the show if you haven't done that. I don't think that's asking too much. As you know, we work hard to get this out to you guys, and we appreciate that in return. So absolutely. Thank you. And why don't we get to it? Michael, if you don't mind, please take it away. My pleasure. And here is your conversation with Andrea Parlotto.

Andrea Parrado, welcome to the photo work podcast. It's so great to finally have you on. I'm really excited. I've been really looking forward to speaking with you. So thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me, Sasha. Yeah. Oh, it's wonderful. And I think I've had a bunch of dudes in a row. I'd like to break up that male energy for you. Yeah. Yeah.

It's awesome. And I have the great Sarah Kennel coming up soon, who's a wonderful curator, so. And I'll tell folks more about her when she's actually on the show. But, yeah, got some chicks, so that's good. So. Well, you and I have known each other for a while, and I've been lucky enough to sleep in your guest room. Thank you very much. And pray with the kids who are not as little, I'm sure. But I'll see them again soon. Cause I'm gonna be up there with you and Greg.

I know. It's gonna be so fun. This group of students that we have is actually amazing. I'm excited for you to meet them. I'm excited to meet them. It's gonna be really fun. So you're up in Rochester, but I'll let you tell our audience all about yourself and how you wound up in Rochester with that guy Greg that we're referring to.

Sure. Originally, I came to Rochester to take a teaching position at the Rochester Institute of Technology, where my husband, Gregory Halpern, was already teaching. I had been teaching in Ithaca prior to that, at Ithaca College with Ron Jude and Nicholas Molnar. So I had a great crew of people there. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually gonna teach a little bit in the image text program at Cornell this summer, so I'll get to work with Nick again. I'm excited for that. He's amazing. Wow.

Yeah, totally. But so, about me, I guess that, like, I think the parts of my life that are relevant to my work are probably, like, not those factual sound bites about work or whatnot, but probably kind of going back to my childhood, which I won't, like, belabor anybody with, but the general kind of sketch of that is that I was raised by my mom, who was a single mom. I had no siblings, and my mom was mentally ill, and we didn't have a lot of money, so I had a very. You used the phrase earlier. We're talking topsy turvy. I'm going to use that. Cause it's, like, kind of cute and vanilla to. Can mask a lot of, like, harsher things. But I had a very topsy turvy childhood. We were, you know, generally, we were evicted every year for, like, a string of eight years because my mom was so high maintenance with, like, asking for locks to be changed and things in general. But luckily, we did land in Burlington, Vermont, where I was kind of around middle school, and so I was able to stay there for a while. But as a little. Little kid, I moved a lot, and I had a very intense relationship with my mom, who tended to treat me like an adult, so she didn't ever kind of talk down to me or talk to me. Like, I was, like, a small kid, and I kind of rose to that challenge, I guess, or part of my personality accepted it easily. So, like, I make this joke, like, when we would be evicted, we would, like, go apartment hunting, and my mom would read me, like, the advert description for the apartment before we would get there. And, like, literally for years, I was so flustered over the phrase wall to wall carpeting because as a child, I expected to see carpet on the walls, obviously, and I just, like, never asked about it. At a certain point, I was kind of like, I guess there are just, like, things I don't understand and, like, didn't go there, but you just made.

Coffee come out of my nose. Thank you very much.

Oh, good. That's a good start to an interview. Yeah. And so, you know, we would look at these apartments together and kind of, like, pick which one made sense or which one I liked the best, too. Like, I would weigh in on it. I guess. I was well respected and had kind of, like, a lot of control or equity, maybe, in our relationship, but also, I kind of was, like, had to mitigate my mom and the world. And, like, the two different. I call them, like, realities to the two different, like, realities I was being exposed to. Like, I don't really know that any reality is objective, but we all agreed to kind of call, you know, to define, to self define, to collectively define, like, objective reality. And so there was the reality I was, like, learning at school and in the world, and then there was living with my mom. And so my mom, like, from a very early age, she would, like, she. One common thing was that she did believe that people always had keys to our house. And so anytime anything was awry, it was, like, essentially like, someone had used their spare set of keys to come into our house and, like, do this. And from a young age, I had to kind of grapple with these, like, small things. So it could be something so seemingly trivial. Like, she'd be like, I put a button here that I want to sew back onto my shirt, and it's, like, missing. I think the neighbors, like, came and took it, and I would be, like, six, and I would have to, like, work that out in my head, and I'd be like, that is, like, a really dumb reason to, like, come into someone's house. Like, could that be true? But then, you know, as a kid, you're, like, kind of poised to believe what your parents tell you. So I had this tension between what I was being told and what I thought and what I was being taught in the world. And I felt like from a young age, I kind of had to sort it out for myself. What's the truth and what's the fiction of something? And I think that that maybe is something that, like, really has stayed with me through various shifting ways within my work.

Oh, yeah, for sure. So. So, yeah, yeah, keep going. Cause I know that's not the end of your story.

Well, so, I mean, I don't know. I was, like, from a young age, like, I started making pictures, like, in middle school, which, like, I mean, means nothing now. Like, literally all my students, like, oh, we've been making pictures since we were four. And I'm like, okay. Like, I was really interested in the fact that I could take things that were, like, in my head and make them visible to other people. And so, like, even when I saw things in the world that I thought were photographable, I was not interested in them because I presumed that other people would also find them photographable. And I knew that I was really the only person who could take the things in my head and, like, give them visibility. And so I always, like, from a young age, kind of, I always was more interested in kind of constructing tableaus or shoots or setting things up with my friends, generally people I was already intimate with. I was kind of shy about, like, asking strangers to do things. And so usually I worked with, like, close friends, and I did that. You know, I started that in middle school, and I eventually ended up going to Bard College for undergrad for photography. I went there for photography. Like, I already knew that that was what I wanted to do. And which is also I was, like, kind of oddly like, you know, knew early on what exactly I was gonna. Not exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. And then I went to graduate school at California College of the Arts, also for photography, pretty shortly after finishing undergrad. By the way, middle school is young to be. Not anymore. Not if your parents have cell phones and they're like, go take pictures on this. Then it's like, you're old. Like, if I started making pictures when I'm twelve, that's, like, old for kids these days, but they don't really realize that I was shooting film. And, like, whatever they.

Yeah, see, to me, it's a totally different thing. I'm sorry. I'm putting my foot down on this. I didn't start making pictures till I was in high school. And, yeah, I can't give too much respect to shooting on your iPhone and thinking that that's working your ass off, because when you're young and you have to develop, I mean, that's just a whole. Not only is it a really precise craft, it takes real patience and dedication. It's hard as hell, especially when you're. When you're young and you're starting, you know? Right. Like, it's hard. You have to be really, really into it.

Yeah. So I was very lucky. I had to go through that. I had a teacher in high school. I didn't have any photo classes at my high school, but I had this class. It was called design and illustration, and it was, like, a two and a half hour class in the middle of my day. And actually, my friend's mom taught it, and she was amazing. Laurie Erickson. And she was, like, the time when people were giving, like, a ton of money for kids to learn, like, photoshop. Like, it was, like, literally the beginning of Photoshop, you know? And so they. We just had all this grant money, and my high school had an old, dark room from when it had a newspaper. And my teacher said, you know, we have enough money that if you want to, like, resurrect this dark room and you can, like, figure out the, like, the chemicals and, like, the equipment you need, I'll order it. And so I had to, like. So I had to do the research, like, figure out what a black and white darkroom needed to, like, be up and running and the chemicals and stuff, and she bought it all for me, and we set up, and so I could go, and I literally. I could print for these, like, two and a half hour blocks in the middle of my high school day. It was, like, pretty amazing. So I just kind of sorted myself out with, like, how to do that.

That's awesome. Yeah, it was great.

It was, like, so unearthed the page boy cap in the corner, the newspaper from the 1940s, so. Well. Well, that's seriously knowing what you want to do. I mean, I loved photography when I was, you know, it's been a lifelong love, but for me, part of it was also just, I hated school. And so I was always, you know, looking for ways to not be in my actual academic classes but be squirreled away somewhere else where no one could find me. Anyway, so. All right, so you go to Bard, and then you go to California College of the Arts, where you probably studied with some amazing people.

I lucked out. I really studied with a lot of amazing people. That was quite the faculty there. So tell us a little bit about some of the folks you worked with. Well, at CCA, I worked. So Larry Sultan was my advisor there. So I worked predominantly with him. And then I also worked with Jim Goldberg, Tammy Ray Carland, and Todd Heido. I mean, wow. I mean, that's just amazing. I mean, that's just. God, I'm jealous. So you're out in California, and how do you wind up coming back east?

Oh, that's a funny story, I guess. So Greg, who was my husband but wasn't. We were not even dating, had taken a job, actually. It was kind of a funny little lineage. Hank Willis Thomas had gotten a job at Cornell that he then was unable to take, and he said, like, oh, you should hire my friend Greg Halpern. And so Greg took this job at Cornell, and then I was in California, and I was adjuncting at California College of Arts and working for a commercial photographer. And Greg thought that his kind of time at Cornell was about. Was going to end. And so he was offered some classes at Ithaca College to fill in for Ron Jude, who was going on sabbatical. And he took that. But then at the last minute, Cornell was like, no, we'd like to keep you on board. So then he said to Ithaca College, wait, I have a friend who you should hire to fill in for Ron Jude. So it was a string of kind of friends subbing out of each other, and then Ithaca College called me to, you know, to start that process. And I remember it was actually. It was kind of an intense day, the same day that Ithaca College was like, yes, you should come take this sabbatical position to replace Ron Jude. Also, Larry Sultan had asked if I wanted to be his studio manager as our friend, who had been Drew Donovan, who's also an amazing photographer, was leaving to go to graduate school. And so I had that, like, this day of, you know, having to sort myself out. But ultimately, I ended up picking the teaching, and that is how I got myself back across country.

And married. Yeah. Yes. And eventually married. Yeah. For those folks who don't know, Cornell and Ithaca are in the same place. Ithaca, New York. So you've been making work for a long time. I wanted to have you on today, you know, to talk about all your work, but I've been spending a lot of time lately with your book from a few years ago, which I still think of as your new book, but I know it's you know, it was a pandemic book, so it's. It's new enough, I guess.

You know, time is. Is warped and different, but it's a book called who has changed and who is dead? And it's extraordinary. And so I really wanted to talk to you about it, and we will, but you've done a few books, and before we get into this latest one, let's just talk. Talk a little bit about the prior book, a spectacle on nothing strange. If you could tell folks a little bit about that.

So, going back to that sketch I gave of my childhood, I really think of spectacle as being my act of processing my childhood and creating a place for both of those kind of realities I had alluded to before. So I think that everybody. My experience was really marked where my mom's reality was clearly very much more subjective than most of the people I met in the world. But I think every human has the experience of having to mitigate the tensions of, like, what's in their head and what's in the world and what feels objective and what feels subjective. And so, really, I was thinking of that book as an exercise in that mitigation, an opportunity to kind of, like, oscillate back and forth between those multiple realities, if you could, like, go that far, just reveal that they exist. Right. And that we all just kind of agree upon a certain destruction so that we don't have utter chaos. And then also to kind of just look at the ways in which darkness or in trauma and humor. Dark humor. Like, all of these things are also kind of part of our living experience. I feel like people really tend to, like, showcase all of the happy and good things that happen to them. But I always think about how a full life really includes everything that's happened to us, and you can't really just piecemeal out the good things. And I wouldn't want to. Like, I don't know that I would understand what my good things were if I also didn't know what my bad things were or I don't even know that my good things would be the same without my. My bad things. I was looking at that, and then it was kind of one thing that was really interesting to me about that work. Just so people know, that book, literally, the photos in that book span, like, a 17 year period. So the oldest picture in that book, I think I made as an undergrad at Bard College in, like, 2002, and the book came out in 2016, and I probably made a photo for it in, like, 2015. Okay, so that's like, 13 years. And so it's a very long period of time. And one thing I think is interesting is that when I started that work, I was really thinking of it as, like, a research project. Like, I was researching 19th century notions of hysteria and the ways in which, like, hysteria kind of essentially created an amazing structure for, like, patriarchy in this way that I don't. I mean, I don't know how much we should get into it, but Freud's original paper on, like, hysteria essentially posited that the young women who he had been studying were most likely sexually abused. And then their families were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not what we paid you to discern. And he quickly shifted and wrote another paper that is the more popular paper that posits that basically hysteria is a result of repressed desire. And so it was like a big switch. So I was looking at that. I was looking at, like, kind of different anthropological cultural rights, and I wasn't looking at myself at all. I wasn't, like, thinking as, like, a 22 year old, like, oh, this is about me in any way. And what I think is interesting about that is because. And I don't think any teacher or, like, anyone did this to me. I just think it's, like, common. And I think it's, like, particularly common, like, within. Not just structural patriarchy, but within, like, any powerful structure that keeps to maintain power. The idea that, like, your personal story isn't worth telling. And so wasn't until I got to graduate school, my mom died and my mom committed suicide in between my undergraduate and my graduate years. And when I got to graduate school, I realized, like, I had been looking at all of these things that basically had so much to do with myself, but I had never been calling about myself and why hadn't I been doing that? And it's kind of, like, over time, I've just. Just. It's so interesting, especially as a teacher and, like, watching students and watching young female students be so hesitant to define anything as, like, being too explicitly about themselves, as if this idea of yourself is just simply not good enough. It's not enough to make something out of. And so I think, you know, that shame or that feeling that you're not good enough is essentially like a tactic of any dominant power structure to maintain status quo. So the idea that your trauma or your interiority or domesticity or sexuality, like, all these things are not worth making art about or stories or, you know, fixed writing about, is really just, to me, I think of it as, like, a scare tactic almost for people to not be comfortable sharing because there's so much more power in sharing than not sharing. I just thought it was. It was interesting with that work that it took me kind of so long to get to this point to realize that it was both about myself and did not about myself. And I feel like it has helped me kind of contextualize for me now why a project couldn't be a research project that was totally personal or a personal project that was totally political. It's kind of like all these delineations just feel so arbitrary to me, and I feel like maybe analyzing my path along that, making kind of sorted myself out in that way.

It sounds very profound. I don't know about that. I mean, I'm sure many people have had that thought, but. Well, I mean, certainly profound for you. A huge shift in your way of being in the world and being in someone who creates. Yeah, definitely. Things that they share with other people.

Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I think most things that we agree on are constructions. And it's so interesting when you. When you realize that they can all be unraveled, you know, like it's. It's not concrete. It's just been acknowledged as such. I don't know.

No, I understand. Well, let's talk about the newest book, because it's really fascinating. And that book is right where I guess you've put us with what you just said. Yeah, the book is phenomenally personal. It's made up of a good amount of text you're writing. 98%. 99% of it is. Mine is minus some nineties, musically. Lyrics.

Yeah, exactly. The text is very informal, beautifully written, very funny at times. Very, really devastating at other times. It's really a key part of the book. And I want to talk about what that means to a photographic publication. But I want to just be clear to everyone who is listening to this episode, please buy this book, who has changed and who is dead, and do not be at all put off by the fact that I'm saying there's a lot of text. The text is.

I think I said this in, like, a Jess Dugan episode because her last book has a lot of text, too. And just like yours is very, very personal and is incredibly captivating. I mean, praise be the captivating, personal text. You know, I'm sorry, I don't. You know, I do appreciate and respect a good academic essay, but, man, you know, they can be hard to get through. Sure.

And not. So your writing in this book, which is just, you know, I'm sorry. To say this, but it's, you know, it's like it's page Turner kind of quality. You know, it's. And once you really understand the rhythm of it, it really takes on, at least it did for me, that feeling, because you have a way of being quite funny in one instance and then dropping the hammer on the next page. And I wasn't planning on doing this yet, but I'm going to do it first. Let me just say there's text, there's obviously photographs, a lot of different styles, and we're going to talk about that, including these spectacularly beautiful photograms that were made using your mother's ashes, which is so moving and also heartbreaking to me. But I want to read one little thing you wrote on one page. Your grandmother is also a character in this important. So this book is about your children, your mother, who, as you said, committed suicide, and your grandmother, who was murdered. So you say, I buy six caterpillars so your grandchildren can watch them turn into butterflies. The company guarantees at least three of them will make it to their final stage of life. They all die. I write and complain. The email in which they offer to send me new caterpillars opens with the line, living things can be unpredictable. So when I read that, I laughed out loud. I'm so glad. I love that. And then I turn the page, and on the immediate next page is this. They never found your mom's murder weapon. The detective asked me. Now you're speaking to your mother. They never found your mom's murder weapon. The detective asked me if I recalled any heavy objects around the house. I said that grandma had an old fashioned iron, now used as a doorstop, and that I hadn't seen it since I came to the crime scene. But eventually it was found, and it wasn't the weapon. I pride myself on my independence. However, I often get scared at night alone in my house. I see this as a glaring flaw, but it's one that since your mom was violently raped and murdered at 94 years old by the man who mowed her lawn, I haven't been able to totally conquer. So the page before, we have this hilarious little anecdote that ends with living things can be unpredictable. And speaking about the caterpillars and on the next page, you drop the hammer and we learn how your grandmother, who we already had learned had been killed. But we learn, you insert those details for the first time, and it's really devastating. This happens a few times in the book, or quite a few times. This back and forth between sort of disarming humor on these very intense. On this very intense topic of life and death, fragility, love, loss. But, you know, obvious question is, was that intentional? The sort of see saw of the setting us up gently for something heavier that would come next? Is the humor there to mitigate the horror and the sense of upset that the reader and viewer might feel?

I think that both of those sentences are true. I think that kind of, like the bait and switch is intentional as a formal device. But I think in general, the humor is not just. Just like, there to mitigate the feelings of the audience, but also is genuinely something I use to mitigate my own feelings. Yeah, of course.

So for me, I was just kind of. I was like, being fidelitous to my own experience in that way. Like I am someone who even in, like, very dark or hard moments, will have a flash of wry or sarcastic humor. Like, I even often will joke. That kind of the right music and humor can essentially get you through anything in life, like my belief. And so it's there to mitigate for the audience and also to replicate how I mitigated those things for myself while living them.

So let's talk about the huge array of styles that you employed in this book. So this is a photo. Photo book. You might think otherwise at this point, but. Well, it's both. But it's a little memoir, and it's a photo book. Yeah. I actually call it, like, an experimental memoir.

Yeah, I think that's how I felt reading it. And I really love that form. So I was all in. It's the perfect audience. But talk about the choice to use so many different. First of all, tell folks about these different visual styles and your choice to use so many.

Okay. The book includes still lifes that I made in my studio, using kind of art historical references from paintings that would have been used to speak to things like death and birth. Includes things that have been made in the world, or found in the world, rather. I mean, intentionally found. So there's a whole series of sicilian tombs, like from the Bronze Age, and pictures of the house that my mom committed suicide in. Then there's pictures of my children. There are these photographs.

Excuse me 1 second. I don't know if I. I can't remember, but did I say when I was talking about this book? When I was talking about it being about your mother's suicide and your grandmother's? God, I don't even remember if I said. And about your children, which is hugely important part of this book. And if I did it's because I got fixated on the loss part, which is typical of me, in a way. But they were going to get along great then.

Yeah, well, we can compare some gruesome personal history. Anyway, continue, please.

All right, so pictures of my children, these photograms that I was making with my mother's ashes. And then there's actually, like, I called it a chapter of still lifes of ceramics, and then also some riffing off of the vernacular images that we call the hidden mother images from the 19th century. So there is a cacophony of, like, visual strategies. And for me, that came about because I actually, when I was first making this work, I felt really bored by photography. I felt like I had, you know, I had, at that point, been teaching maybe for, like, 17 years. I had all of those images that I saw in my day to day life. And then, just like every other human in the world, all of the images, just as we navigate the world as humans and on social media and kind of just this constant stream. And I think I was feeling inundated with images, and I was particularly feeling inundated photographically by images that felt very, like, technically proficient and were made of things that had established kind of. Of precedence within contemporary photography, but ultimately felt soulless to me.

Yep.

So I was just, you know, I think that there's, you know, just kind of had been such a rise in photographic interest, and it was easier to self learn and easier to emulate. And I just felt like I was seeing just so much work that didn't do anything for me other than regurgitate, in uninteresting ways other work that I already knew or had seen. And it made me feel like I had to grapple with my own desire to keep making images, first of all, like, well, who am I to add to this existing stream? Or how am I changing it to be worth adding to this stream? And, like, also, how can I not be bored? Like, I don't want to be bored making images. And so one thing I did was I was interested in kind of how much mud I could fling or how many balls I could throw before, like, everything fell apart. And so I wanted to. I also. I should say that some projects, like, my project, are about things that are not answerable. So, like, I can't. So my book is about, like, parental anxiety and the ways in which, like, motherhood is, like, a gendered construct in society and then all this kind of personal trauma. And I wanted to talk about the ways in which those things, like, intersect and relate to each other. But, like, obviously, I'm not gonna solve with an experimental memoir, like, the problematics of, like, structural patriarchy and my family trauma. So I also felt that, like, by using multiple visual strategies and text, I could start to speak to the complicated nature and the intersections of all of those things and begin asking the right questions, even more than offering. Implying that I was offering an answer. And so, for me, it was a way to kind of rekindle my interest in image making and also just kind of a way of very clearly letting my audience know that I was just as unsorted out maybe as they were.

Yeah, that's lovely. And, you know, one thing you said in a interview you did with Christian Battuck, and I hope I'm saying that right, in paper journal, because he asks you about this and the different styles that you employ. And you said, I think of it as a juggling act. How many balls can be up in the air before they crash down? And if they do crash down, is there a moment beforehand when, for one lovely second, things make slightly more sense than usual? And when I read that, I thought, I wonder if now that the book's been out for a few years, it's completed. When you go back and look at it, do you think that. What's your feeling of the sort of chaos of this book, which. It's actually not chaotic. It's funny. I'm gonna take that back as a description. I actually think you really achieve what you set out to, which is not answering these questions, but I actually think that there is a lovely second where things make slightly more sense than usual.

Good. I think you do achieve that. But I'm really wondering if you. If you feel that way.

I mean, I worked really. I worked really hard to carve out those moments. So, like, you know, in, like, if you imagined, like, a crazy ass spider web. Like, I think that everything in that book is. Is very interconnected. Like, I don't think they're, like, non. Like anything is, like, a non sequitur. You know, that's just kind of, like, there without rhyme or reason. And I think that it does kind of unfurl in a way where you start to see that rhyme and reason. You know, the photograms that you mentioned, like, for me, that was. I was looking at, like, it was very important that I would have a way to include my mom in this project more than just throughout the text. And I knew that I didn't want to use family pictures, but how do you include someone who's dead? And so I started making these photograms that have her ashes. And then my hand, like, very dorky photo one kind of your hand. But I was thinking of them as these kind of, like, slightly macabre family portraits. Like, how do you make a picture with someone who's not here? And so I think that they work as a family portrait, and the ways that some of the ceramic groupings, I also think of as family portraits. And then the ceramics, which maybe seem like the most kind of non sequitur moment in the book, they, for me, I was really thinking about. So just for people who don't know, the ceramics are all either vessels, so things that are meant to hold things, and they're all amateur, so they're really clunky. They're not beautiful thin. They're like, you know, like, imagine, like, a kid at summer camp made something for their mom, and then I bought them all from thrift stores. So presumably they were made for someone who maybe used them, maybe didn't, but then got rid of them. And I was thinking it as, like, a metaphor for parenting in this way that we are used and are, you know, serve a very specific function, but eventually, kind of that function shifts in the best case scenario. So I was using the vessels as this metaphor for, like, a womb, and as something that would get left. Serve a function and get left behind. And then also the fact that they were clay, which comes from the ground in which we all go back to. I was kind of thinking about this kind of lifespan of an object, and then the object would go back to the ground like a human body would. So, like, I think that maybe the reason that a lot is there, but it makes sense, is that, like, I worked really hard to make sure that they really did. There was nothing kind of gratuitous, I guess. Like, it really, really does interconnect, even if it just takes you a bit to unpack the ways in which it's doing that.

A lot of the images in the book, there is a certain. They run the risk of visual cliche, right. The flowers, the landscapes, the children. I don't think that that's where they are, but I think that that's a risk they run. How do you. How did you avoid that? And was that a source of anxiety at all?

So, I mean, we haven't really talked about, like, why. Why did I include text? So. So to start right there, part of the reason that I wanted to include text was that I was pulling from these stories that I share, things that I wanted to make, you know, visual as well. And I was concerned. So there's, like, this picture of an orchid. It's, like a triple exposure of this orchid. And then there's this story about how one of the last times I saw my mom, we were in New York City, and she bought me a blue orchid that had been dye, you know, artificially dyed blue. And I was just a little bitch about it. I was basically like, this isn't even real. Like, this has just been died, you know, just so mean. And really, she just thought it was, like, fantastic and beautiful. Right. And I have thought about that time, like, why? Like, literally, why couldn't I just say thank you? Or, like, why wasn't I? And. But really, like, you know, a photo of an orchid could just. Is pretty, right? And so I knew that without kind of dovetailing into that story of my own guilt, it would run the risk of being purely aestheticizable, and I didn't want that to happen. So text is one way that I feel like I actually mitigate the potential for the images to be overly aestheticized in terms of the subject matter itself. I mean, I think that I did struggle particularly with photographing my children as a mom and, like, having to cut out the images that would have been gratuitous in so much as, like, my children just looked like happy, beautiful children. You know, I had to be really kind of firm with myself to ensure that the images of them were serving another purpose. Right. And I think I did cut everything where it felt like that was happening. And I also wanted to, you know, look at, kind of ask the question, like, is there a time in which a female body can hold an unsexualizable position in society?

Yep. And so I think that's not really probably a common reason that people take pictures of kids. I hopefully avoided it just by, you know, cutting out what didn't make sense as content and should just be, like, in a family album or something.

To me, maybe part of the answer is it's everything together. You know, it's the way. I mean, to me, this is the. The pro body of work argument, right? Like, this isn't about individual images. Should I pick individual images that I would want up on my wall? Without a doubt, there are many spectacular images in this book. I want to be clear. I think the images are very, very beautiful. I think what makes them not family album pictures is that they're very complex. You know, how we feel about them. I know from spending so much time with this book and going back to it over and over again, especially over the past couple of months, where my life has been chaotic and had a number of ups and downs. My read on this book, both the text and the images, completely changes. And that's all credit and deep respect to your work here. That it's the complexity of the images that, you know, offers so, so much to the viewer and allows us to have so many different experiences with it, which I really am grateful for, because to me, that is. That's really the ultimate success. You know, I used to work a lot more with private clients than I do now. I work primarily with museums now in my role as an art dealer. But when I worked a lot with private clients, one of the things that I really loved was when it was people who were just starting out collecting was steering them towards the more complex images. Because, you know, often a new collector will want to choose something that's pops.

Out to them fresh. Exactly.

And it doesn't have multiple readings necessarily. They look at it, they connect with one thing, and that's it. And sort of trying to explain to them that it's like if they were a scotch drinker, that this is like, an example I would use with them, or let's say a red wine connoisseur, that they wouldn't want to drink a simple wine. They want to drink a complex wine. Right. Like something that when they started drinking wine, they might have thought of as not particularly delicious because of all the complexity, but oversight. That's the thing they wanted. That's right. So to me, this book has so many different readings, and it's going to come down to the person interacting with its state of mind. And that's really a success to me.

It's so funny, Sasha, because as a teacher, I'm always am, like, trying to convince students that the photos that they like the most, the quickest, are, like, not gonna be their keepers. And, you know, of course they think I'm, like, full of shit. I'm like, no, like the ones that you like right away. Like, it's like you like them and then you stop liking them. But it's like the ones that have, like, a slow burn. You know, time tells that they're still opening, revealing themselves to you. Really?

Without a doubt. 100%. So, you know, we touched on this a little bit, and I just want to end talking about this book before we talk about what you're working on now. But with the idea of, you know, how do we feel as photo community people, people who love photography and love looking at photographs, how do we feel about a book that needs its text.

Oh, well, so, yeah, I mean, so for me, it's interesting that you say that. I, you know, was coming from a place where I think many photographers probably come from in so much as, like, the photo should speak for themselves. Right. The photo shouldn't need any explanation. It should do. It should be doing the work. And for that reason, I actually spent the beginnings of this project, like, very sheepishly writing. I was, like, pretty nervous about, like, having, quote unquote, too much text. And at that time, it was pretty funny because, like, I didn't have a. I didn't have any outlet for it yet. So I was like, who am I worried about offending with this, like, egregious amount of text? Like, I don't even know, but I was. I was holding myself back. And then one day, I was talking to my friend, who I already mentioned, Nicholas Molnar. And he, he just casually just referred to the project as a hybridic project. And it was like one of those, like, stupid, no duh moments where I was like, oh, like, duh. Like, this actually just isn't a photo project anymore. It's a text image project. And I actually do think of text image as a separate medium.

Yep. And so once I, like, realized that it wasn't a photo book, I felt totally. It was like I gave myself permission to lean into the writing element. And so I don't see it as a photo book with text. And when I show it, I actually, I make these lumens prints of the text so they're, like, framed and on the wall with the pictures, and I make them, and I fix some of them, and I don't fix others. And so some of them are on the wall dying in real time or darkening so you can't see.

That's beautiful. Yeah.

And so it was important to me to solve them as an object if they were going to be, like, part of the work and not, you know what I mean? And so it was like, I feel like that the hybridity of the, that you have so many kind of additional considerations. Like, I needed the book to be a size that would feel appropriate to being read because it wasn't just a photo book anymore. I needed it to, like, I needed the audience, my audience to feel comfortable sitting and reading it. And I didn't want to make huge images that would then kind of say, like, actually, hey, hey, this text isn't important. Just look at these big images, you know?

Right.

I wanted to show that the text was important, but then if I wanted the text to be part of the work, I had to solve it on the wall, too. Like, how do I put it on the wall if it's gonna be part of this and make it into an object with materials? And so I do think that it has its own set of considerations, not being just a photo book with text, but really being kind of in its own. Not its own, but, you know, a different genre. And for me, that, like, the two, it was just important to me that they were each really kind of working on different registers. Like, I love. I love photos with text. I mean, obviously. But for me, what I dislike, and I think I just, like, kind of dislike this in general, is like, I don't want to be told something twice. And so for me, it was really important that they were, and I don't want to feel like one thing is doing all the work for another thing. So I kind of, if I feel like the text and the images are telling me the same thing, I don't really care. And if I feel like I don't want to look at the images and I only want want to read, or I don't want to read and I only want to look at the images, then it doesn't feel right to me either. So I kind of think of them as, like, that they need to do equal weight and that they need to do different things, and then I love them. But, you know.

No, that's really awesome. And it's funny what you said about, you know, it's like I'm always amazed when I get stuck, and then I come unstuck, and it's so obvious. So it's like what you were just saying. And I always think of it. It's like, like I'm just looking one way, and it's as if my head can't move totally. And then you just turn your head a little bit and you see a different view and everything changes totally.

Or you just get so granular, like, in with something. Like, you know, I'll have a student working on something that will be like, should I be using a glass vase instead of a ceramic vase? And I'm like, well, you feel there's a really great way to figure that out. It's like the stakes are so low. Like we're just talking, you know, it's like people get all heady. Like, we'll shift it in a major way. You know, I'm like, well, if you do the work, you'll know if it's working, right. Exactly.

And we all kind of do that. In our own heads in various different ways and, you know, to ourselves of, like, kind of hold ourselves back. Yep, for sure. Well, I love that you figured it out. It's like a sort of Maggie Nelson book with pictures, which is really wonderful. That's a high compliment. She's a great writer. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. So tell us about what you're working on now. What's, what's next?

Well, so, I mean, I'm kind of, I'm thinking of it as a companion piece to this project, although I'm not yet sorted out on whether it's like a companion piece in so much as, like, it's in dialogue because it's me or if it's, like, literally a companion piece. But I was when, you know, when I was working on this book that we just spoke about, one of the things I was thinking a lot about was how, how motherhood in western culture becomes kind of this epithet that trumps, like, every other thing about women often. And so when you're a mom, you know, you could be, like, severed from your hobbies, your career, your sexuality. Like so many things, motherhood is like the thing above that. And in some ways, you know, that is like an erasing or closing down. It's a reduction. And so I was thinking about motherhood almost as, like, a form of invisibility where it disallows people to see other elements of you in one of its, you know, negative, in one of the negative iterations. So then I kind of was just thinking more about that and thinking about, you know, you can't really, like, read an interview with, with any middle age aged artist writer without someone mentioning the word invisibility. And so I started thinking about how aging for women can often be, have an element of invisibility and the ways in which, like, motherhood and fatherhood, like, aging, is gendered for men and women and markedly different. And the difference between, for instance, like, you know, a man turning 40 and, like, culturally, he's, like, being cued to the fact that, like, he's worked his whole life and here's his payoff, his spoils, and there's more good to come and, like, a woman turning 40 and it's like, get ready for the end of your life, you know, like, the end and just the difference, like, the cultural, like, culturally, like, that is such a different headspace, right? Like, reap your rewards versus, like, prepare for, like, irrelevancy. And so I was just thinking of aging. I was thinking maybe I could carve out a space where I could explore like. Like a psychological space, obviously not a literal one, where I could explore both, like, my fears and my fantasies around this gendered aging.

And.

But I also. But I just. In the way that I wouldn't want this book to. I didn't want this last book to be didactic. I I really trying to go about it in an expansive way. So, like, what would be my worst case scenario? And what would be my best case scenario? And play out all of those scenarios. And so right now, the project includes, like, a series of women portraits of women between the ages of 55 and 75. And this is the first time in my life I've ever worked with people I don't know. So it's interesting for me. I kind of am also realizing that I like a little bit of a challenge. Like, I had never written before that last book, and I was like, oh, now I have to figure out how to do this thing. And so I feel like making these pictures of strangers has been another challenge for me, but it's also been just kind of an absolutely amazing experience so far working with them.

And how are you finding your subjects?

I'm actually just finding them on Craigslist. Mm hmm. So I started kind of like how anyone would start. My friend offered me their mom, and she came to my studio, and she was all dressed up, and she was beautiful. She's 71. And I just felt so uncomfortable because I knew that the beauty that she wanted revealed was not the beauty that I wanted revealed, even though there's, I mean, you know, we just said that my photos are beautiful. So there's like, no, I'm not, like, going bruce Gildan on this or anything, but there's like, I could just tell that we had. There was a tension there, right, between how she. Yeah. And so I needed something that would just have a little bit of feel a little bit more equitable. So I have a post, and the post, you know, leads people to many examples of my work. And I kind of feel like if it's like, if they wanna reach out, they kind of know what they're getting themselves into, you know, in a more direct way. And I don't know them. So they come in in dribs and drabs. No one is pounding down my door. And half the time they're like, men who are just ignoring the fact that I don't wanna photograph men, which I'm like, oh, shocking. Yes, I know. Yeah. Someone just asked me to take a couple pictures for them. I was like, we're definitely using that euphemistically but, you know, so it's like, you know, it's Craigslist, so you get tons of random shit. Anyway, so I've just been. So it's been a few years. I've been making these pictures of women, and I have a few women that I have. I love, and we've. I've worked with them a few times. I've called them back. There's a kind of a. There's maybe some main characters and some tertiary characters in it, and then there are some still lifes, and then there is also another written component. And the written component has elements that are very similar to the book we just talked about. And then it has kind of a weird component as well, where a woman is writing to someone she saw in the world that she believes to be a vampire. And so I'm using kind of the metaphor of, like, the vampire's literal invisibility and immortal life and lack of aging to kind of speak to this, like, clusterfuck of, like, anti aging immortality projected expectations on women in. And she kind of parses that out with them through these, like, epistolary forms. So it's a little. It's a little out. It's a little weird.

Yeah. I can't wait. So. So. And all you Anne Rice fans. No, I'm just kidding. And just. Are there any nudes or these?

That's a great question. So one thing is, I've been kind of, like, trying to meet women at, like, the energetic level that I feel like they want to be met at. So I haven't, like, so. And I was really torn on news in general, obviously, art, historically, so many naked pictures of women didn't. Didn't know if I wanted to go there, but then also not really that many naked pictures of women in this age group. So then I was like, could it be interesting? I haven't really solved that, like, in a global way, but in terms of meeting people on their own. So one of my first women that I photographed, Harper, who I love, on our first. Our first date, if you will, she said, just so you know, I would love to be photographed nude. And I have a double mastectomy. And I was just like, this is. I don't even. You know, I was like, this is a lot for me to take in, basically. I didn't know if I wanted to, if I could go there at that moment with her without having thought it through and without having met her before. And we had our photo session, and then about a year later, I called her back and made some nude pictures of her.

Wow.

And that was, you know, going off of her kind of initial offer. And I wrote to her, I was honest. I said, I think I'm ready to. I think I wouldn't, you know, you said this, and if that still feels true to you, I would love to actually do that now. Or if I am, like, worried working with someone. I was working with someone and they were like, oh, so I've been like, nude modeling for a drawing class. I'm like, oh, I'll just be like, oh, I think they want to take their clothes off for me, but I'm never like, hey, what do you think about taking your clothes off for me?

Wow, that's really interesting. I love that you just sort of let it unfold. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I can be like, a little, I had one group, like, two sisters who wanted to be photographed together, and they're the only twosome I have now. And I was getting all like, you know, I secretly think that, like, all photographers are, like, have some form of control freak elements that they're, like, masking or not masking. And I was like, a little bit like, oh, I need to, like, have more twosomes. Like, this is weird. There's just, like, this one twosome. But then I realized, like, well, no, like, that's how they wanted to be. Like, I was like, I'm just gonna kind of double down on just, like, energy matching and go with the fact that they came together and they wanted to be photographed together. And if that happened, happens with someone else, that's awesome. But, like, I'm not gonna start, like, searching for, like, you know, more sisters or something. But my first response was like, you know, this will, like, be, this will stand out and be weird or whatever. And I'm kind of just, it feels more collaborative to not try to force.

That's what I was gonna say. I mean, this is the ultimate sort of equitable collaboration, which is something that, you know, we talk about a lot on the podcast, and photographers want to talk about a lot, particularly right now, making sure that the photographer is not, there's not an imbalance of power or trying to mitigate that inherent imbalance of power. And it sounds like that's really, if anything, it almost sounds like you've handed over as much power as you possibly can while still being able to maintain your position as the person who's pressing the button on the camera to make the picture.

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting conversation. Like, I struggle with this conversation because in general, in life, I feel like there actually aren't any relationships that don't have some kind of power dynamic. And so I think it's actually problematic to expect photography to be the one realm of the world that's like, oh, hey, it's all totally equitable. I don't think that's possible anywhere. And we, like, let it happen in so many other places and, in fact, not just, like, let it, but cultivate it and expect it to, to. So I think it's interesting that there's, you know, so much has come down on photography for that. But, I mean, not implying that there shouldn't be an awareness and that there are more and less predatory styles of photography, for sure. But I do think it's interesting. I do believe that all human relationships have some kind of power dynamic. And so it has been interesting for me to kind of have that in my mind's eye and think about photography and think about my images that I'm making. And, you know, I send them all, like, the whole take of everything I've made. They can just see it. Like, I don't. And so if, you know, if someone was ever like, I hate this picture or something, I, of course, wouldn't, wouldn't want to publish it moving forward. But I also, like, I think what the thing for me that makes it feel like the best is actually, like, our exchanges. And it's funny, I think it, I haven't sorted it out yet, but I think a lot of it has to do with just, I mean, you know, you hear me talking now and you read my text and you can kind of tell, like, I'm not generally, like, keep cards close to my chest. I'm, like, pretty direct and pretty forthcoming. And so when I am meeting these women, I'm also that way. And I kind of orient them to my work and tell them what I'm interested in. And none of them are, like, history people or, and it's amazing. First of all, they all get it when I'm, like, talk about it being gendered, like motherhood and aging. They're all just like, fuck, yeah. They're like, no one is like, what do you mean by that? Like, so we having these conversations about that. And then when I'm talking about my prior book that we just talked about, I do think they're after I'm, like, saying these things that are, you know, vulnerable. I come home and I, like, literally know, like, every detail of someone's sex life. I know everything bad that happened to them. I mean, it's just like, they're like, I couldn't make more than one person's picture in a day. Like, they're very, very emotionally intense, generally. And I feel like it's like I don't know what I'm totally looking for. And I feel like they don't. We're mutually searching. Like, we both don't totally know what we want, and that's, like, the best case scenario. And there are times where it has felt energetically off or it hasn't worked, because I always ask people like, hey, what made you reply to my ad? And then two times, the energy has just felt really kind of off to me. Both of the women were just like, which is a totally fair reason to. Totally fair.

Of course. No problems there. But it was. It's interesting to me that it's like I. A lot more often, I get kind of like, well, my kids are out of the house. I'm looking for new things. I don't really know. I thought about this, and those always are really kind of just feel open and good. And then it was, you know. Anyway, it's. It's been really kind of interesting and, I don't know, confusing and amazing and we'll see.

Well, I can't wait to see the pictures. Maybe I'll get a sneak peek when I up in Rochester. Oh, yeah, definitely. We could definitely arrange that.

All right. Well, thank you so much for talking with me. I love talking with you. And, yeah, it's just been. It's just been so much fun. And thank you also for this beautiful, beautiful book that I just treasure, and everyone should get a copy. It's really. It was published by Mac. So you can go to the Mac website and get this book, who has changed and who is dead. It's really moving. So thank you. Thank you. And say hey to Greg for me. Tell him he's going to be. Yeah, he's up next in the family and we can get to the kids. I would be amazing. And I will see you in a couple months.

Awesome. Thanks so much, Sasha. Okay, Andrea, talk soon. Be well. You too. Bye.

Photo work with Sasha Wolf is a production of the photo work foundation. Executive producer is Sasha Wolf and the associate producer is Taylor Selsback. The show was also produced and edited by me, Michael Chovindalton. A real photoshow. Music is by J. Walter Hawks. If you like the show and wish to find out more about the foundation, please visit Photoark foundation and be sure to subscribe and review with all the stars on your listening platform.