Ecological_Lacrosse Podcast Season 2, Ep. 3- Corey Winkoff

Jamie Monroe here. I'm excited to introduce this new show called the Ecological Lacrosse Podcast. The goal of this podcast is to help coaches of all levels learn to apply modern skill acquisition concepts to their teams in a cutting edge, but practical way. In this podcast, we will discuss lacrosse in the context of principles of play and through the lens of ecological dynamics and a constraints-led approach.

I guarantee the ecological approach to your coaching will not only help you win more games, but it will create the best possible experience for your players and it will change your life. How's it going, everybody? Welcome back to the Ecological Lacrosse Podcast. Very excited to introduce Corey Winkoff. Played at Penn, is the program director with FLG Lacrosse.

and the offensive coordinator at St. Anthony's for their girls program. What's up, Corey? So fired up to have you on the show. Thanks, Jim. I'm really excited to be here. This is when you first started your original podcast, you started. I tuned in. I was glued to every episode. We got the ecological one going. I thought this is an incredible opportunity, not just for me to learn a little bit. I'm excited to be a part of this. This is sick.

You know, just how many other coaches, what a good introduction to like what it is and how they can just, you know, adopt some new strategies to be a more effective coach. and make lacrosse a sport that kids can continue to enjoy, not just the game piece of it, but the process piece of training and getting better at practicing. So excited to be here. Awesome, man.

All right, let's kick it off with just tell me about your sort of introduction and journey with an ecological approach. When did you start? thinking this way and how have you evolved? I think like pinpointing like what it was and how it was a little bit more of like an approach definitely came from I think you. You've always been a big mentor for me just kind of like.

thinking about the game differently and learning about in different ways. And just some of the people that you talk to in different sports, you know, whether it be basketball or maybe someone through, you know, track or other coaches in the lacrosse space, I think for me. It allowed me to be like, hey, there's, I think, a more fun and effective and efficient way to coach kids up. And that's really where it started for me.

I would say over the last few years, especially now that I'm diving, not just coaching kids on a club perspective and a training perspective, but for me, you know, I didn't jump into like coaching college or high school. I kind of went right into the business of sport and, you know, building out events and coaching club teams.

It's not quite as fun and effective at times, but I think once I started to coach some really high-level kids at the high school level, and as I started to learn more from people like you and other people in the space, I really got to apply it on.

You know, not just like a week to week basis, which is typically when you deal with like club kids because you don't practice as much and as consistent, but especially when I started coaching at the high school level. So that's kind of how it started for me. Love it. And so, yeah, getting to go deep.

when the high school team makes a big difference. And it's kind of, it's really fun to coach women's lacrosse. I, I got two daughters, so I got really into it and love watching and talking about women's lacrosse just as much as men's lacrosse.

So talk to us a little bit about what it's like at St. Anthony's and how you've tried to use this approach and maybe describe what the offense that you're running looks like. Yeah. So pretty cool. Like I got an opportunity to coach with.

Someone who has given myself, Christian Michaels, who I coach alongside, the freedom to take an approach that's definitely not like, it's not traditional. It's not typical, especially in the girls' face. So Darcy Messina, who's the head coach, is, you know, is...

we kind of work together as a team to make it like you say, like each a lot ecological. So like, I don't always look at from the, from an offensive lens who might be running the defense, working with the goalies. He's not always looking at it from a defensive lens.

Darcy, same thing as someone who's just trying to maintain the culture and uphold a certain level of play. We're constantly working together to push each other and look at the game from all different aspects, which I think makes it a lot more effective for the players.

It makes the focus, you know, I think not just like winning, but on player development and getting girls ready to play at the highest level when they get to college, which is the ultimate goal for me as a high school coach. So if we have a freshman going to campus.

you know, and she's, she's going to Northwestern, one of the top programs, right? Like how prepared is she to cut film up and understand the game? Like how good is her decision-making? Does she even think or understand like what good, you know, what a good shot is?

or what a bad shot is, right? Like how, how does she read defenses? Like those are questions that, and those are just ways that I want the players to think about the game at a super high level before they get to college campuses. So if we can do that to the best of our abilities, I think we're really setting up girls for success.

Just to kind of answer your question about the offensive aspect, I think it all starts with principles for us. We run a straight-up principles-based offense, so we don't construct patterns and have them memorize where to go, when to go, and think about timing and all these things to construct the winning play.

We break it down to basically five principles that simplify how to approach the game. And those principles come up and they emerge over the course of a practice, a week, a season. And we don't just talk about them and create environments at practice. where girls are emphasizing and working on them on the field, we're also doing it off the field. So for example, when we break up film,

We have like our gold plays, we call them, and our black plays. The gold plays are the good ones that are the winning plays. But as we kind of talk about those plays, we're categorizing them within our principles of play. So that way we're constantly emphasizing. and reiterating what our principles are. What are your principles? Yeah, so we call our offense Swagger, S-W-A-G-R. So our first principle play is spacing.

So just kind of maintaining and thinking about how many players should be on the ball side or backside, you know, thinking about how many girls should potentially be below GLE or above GLE. Spacings change. I think, you know, it's impossible to say what perfect spacing is. I think good spacing comes with just repetition and being forced into different environments in practice and watching them film. The second piece of it is, you know, possessing the ball.

So the W in swagger, we like to say we must possess. Possessing the ball encompasses a lot of things. Shot selection, feed selection, you know, just thinking about, you know. what a good shot is and when's a good shot, you know, contingent on what's going on with the shot clock. I think thinking about the shot clock and using shot clocks a lot within our practice environment really helps girls prepare for college because it's new to high school.

Last year was the first year that we used it in every single game with the exception of one at a neutral site game or actually an away game in Connecticut. So for us, possession is a big one for us. Actions is the third principle. So that encompasses a lot of things that... allow us to create advantages in an offensive setting, whether it's on ball or off ball. So, you know, simple one might be a pick and roll off ball.

It might be like a three-man cycle or something like that. So just working on the different actions within our practice environment, I think allows us to kind of utilize those in different ways in a game setting. So the last couple we got.

The G is get moving with deception. So I think that encompasses a lot as well because movement, I don't just think about ball movement. I'm also thinking about off ball movement and thinking about, you know, and getting the girls to think about.

you know how to move to create space or to free up and create advantages for your teammates or you know how to move in a way that you know is difficult for the defense to kind of track you or defend you and then obviously moving the ball to move the defense so

I think, you know, as, as I like to group deception and movement together, because I just think a lot of that deception comes with, you know, you know, with movement as a whole. So that's a big one for us. And then the last piece is read and execute. So just reading is just constant getting the girls to not just like.

Think about what they're going to do before they do it. You know, to read the defender that's in front of them, to read their teammates and work with them, to read the defense as a whole. Like, you know, are you going up against a zone right now with a backer? Are you playing man-to-man, right?

Or do they have a rover? Like, I think when you can read a defense and read what's in front of you, it allows you to execute each and every play. And it allows you to think about, you know, perceiving the game and what's going on in front of you versus just like deciding what you're going to do.

before something in front of you even happens. So those are our principles that we try to live by. I love it. And going back to the comments about yeah, you're technically the offensive coordinator, but you guys are all working together and you're not siloed off with pure offense and pure defense, really makes it possible to have these principles work. It's funny when... You listen to a coach talk about doing skeleton offense, you know, seven on zero or in men's across six on zero.

And they're saying things like it helps with spacing. It's really funny when you think about that because the spacing really has to do with the defense, not just the space between offensive players. And right back down to the, you know, the reading part of the game.

There's just no way to read anything if you're not not only in the context of offense and defense, but also changing up coverages. We talk a little bit about that when you're trying to teach kids reads on all the different actions that you're running.

rattle off a few actions and then rattle off a few coverages that you are working on and maybe some of the solutions that you're trying to teach them yeah so it's don't do a ton of one-on-one stuff to be honest i think like it's super easy to win your matchup when you're one-on-one if unless you have like crazy constraints on like the space and like the start right you know just playing 2v2

And doing some actions out of that, I think is a great place to start. And it's a really easy way, even just with one coach there, if you're working with a small group or even a practice environment, like we do our 6 a.m. in the offseason and open to anyone and everyone.

The number of kids there vary. The number of coaches that we have there vary. But we can really break the groups down and to have smaller settings. But when you're playing 2v2, I think a pick and roll is a great place to start. And I think how you defend it. is also something that you should mix up. So for example, just forcing kids or defenses to not have to switch on a pick is a great place to start because I think it really forces...

From an offensive perspective, the Dodger to have to control their defender and actually manipulate them. I think if you just let the defense do whatever they want and you say, hey, we're going to work on the pick and roll in this 2v2 situation, like nine times out of 10, the defense is switching and the offensive player is just running off that pick. They're not even thinking about it.

the first piece of like squaring up, waiting for a pick to come, controlling their defender, running their defender potentially into a pick or over a pick or putting them in a spot where they can then get under the pick. So I think if...

you're just doing a simple 2v2 and you're working the pick and roll, constrain the defense to force them to play in a certain way is really big. And then on the flip side, offensively, you know, just saying and creating different incentives for them to maybe get the defense to do certain things like...

You get a point if you get the defense to switch. And now they're starting to think about like, well, I know that they're going to try to stay with this, but what can I do to try to get them to switch so that way I can hit the slip? Or in this case, it's the roll because we're going to pick and roll.

I think that's just like one minor example. And then I think adding players is a simple way to like progress that, you know, whether you're just adding an extra offensive player. So now you have a three V two, but instead of saying like, Hey guys, I'm going to throw a ball in and play three on two to goal. All right. You got to get.

you got to get a pick and roll all right before you go to goal and you can't score off the dodge so instead of saying like hey you got to pass it three times or you got to get two passes off the pick and roll it's like like we're trying to figure out how to create offense

by, you know, using ball movement out of a pick and roll situation. And I think you can even add a defender from that, making it a three on three. So I think that's something that we do a lot of, especially as we start developing some of the younger players in our program who've maybe never even played in a two man game.

who I've never thought about playing in a three-man game. And there's a lot of ways that you can strain the defense and offense to manipulate, you know, kind of like what you want to get out of the particular situation. I love it. I love the idea of making them switch. And in fact, I've been thinking a lot about this against some teams play pretty high pressure outside the 12, trying to speed you up, trying to make you attack with just speed on something that they can collapse on.

make you play faster than you want to play. And I've been thinking about a constraint with that where you make them switch and you make them switch back. Make them switch twice. And then it'll sort of allow you to sort of set up. I mean, essentially like a re-pick, but it's a little different because when they're playing that high pressure, you got it. You can't run full speed off a pick with high pressure.

you're going to get the pick blown up. It's going to be a block. They can't pick for you if you're running full speed. It's one of the really cool things about it. And then if you... Once you make them switch once, it's pretty easy to make them switch back. And then all of a sudden you probably can square up and start having some control instead of trying to operate way outside the 12th.

I love that because then you're working some of your moves, right? You could do this obviously one-on-one, but what's more effective to work on? Hesitation or backpedaling while you're dodging or dragging?

than trying to get someone to switch twice, you know, in a two-man situation. And you're doing that with some pressure, which is super representative of what you'll see in a game because, you know, some of the best defenses that we've seen, right, you play like the Dariennes of the world in the high school girls' space.

You play these teams that have these ridiculous high-pressure defenses with some nuance in it. You've got to learn how to handle pressure. You've got to force your girls in those environments and figure out how to create advantages in those situations.

Totally. And another thing we do, Jamie, as well, like if you just want to talk about how we kind of work on different actions, the Nations looks a big one, which, you know, essentially a two-man game with an outlet. And, you know, a lot of times we look to...

you know, hit the person who initially sets the pick from the outlet or look for a give and go with the initial Dodger. But I love playing those with three offensive players and four defenders because typically when you play these really high pressure, you know, zone defenses.

there's more than it's not an even situation on the ball side. Usually there's an extra defender. So how do you manipulate that extra defender? How do you successfully move the ball and create advantages when there's an extra defender?

How do you do it on one side of the field? Because typically that's where you're operating. You don't really have use of the whole field. You got to figure out how to create an advantage and maybe get some looks, you know, just on the ball side. And I think if you could do that.

And then you also have the option to utilize the backside of the field. It opens up this box of opportunity and advantages to create some really high percentage shots in the girls game. So it looks super sloppy a lot of times, you know, and it could definitely. as a coach, you know, traditionally speaking, drive you nuts. There's nothing clean about it, but like, I think it's great because then, you know, it creates a lot of energy and buy-in from the defensive side.

when they're seeing success. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But most importantly, it's representative of what you see in a game. So we do a lot of stuff like that, Jamie, like out of a, you know, just kind of working. We talk about going back to action, just working on three-man game stuff.

And just saying, hey, you can't use the backside. You know, figure out how to create an advantage. You've got a good shot right now. And figure it out. Three against four. Figure it out. Interesting. Yeah. On the Zillian offense, peace.

I have a philosophy about picking or not picking, but I'm curious, you know, you talk about a nation's look. Do you try to run that against zones? Do you try to run a lot of picks against zones? And if so, why? And so why not? Yeah. So definitely, I think I'm a bigger proponent of stealing against zones. We like to. On ball or off ball? So both, you know, I think, I think on, if you're talking about on the ball side, right.

A lot of times, and teams like to play with a backer because we're typically a team that wins our, we can really win our one-on-one matchup. So a lot of times they have a lot of support behind the ball. So I think figuring out how you can get your off-ball players to kind of manipulate that backer is something that we try to work on a lot in practice. I also think, you know, being that teams are so caught up with helping.

I think it creates, for the ball carry, it alleviates a lot of pressure if you can figure out how to manipulate and seal and create some space for basically whoever has the ball in their hands to make a better decision. So that's something we like to do a lot of. And then I think off ball too, even if you have a 2v1 off ball, if you have an extra offensive player and there's one defender to match up with them.

I think just messing with that defender by sealing them and creating space or a more wide open cut for your teammate just creates such wide open gaps and advantages that you look for. So that's something that we definitely try to practice and emphasize when we play zones.

What's the difference between a pick and a seal in a zone when you're talking about on ball? How do you distinguish the difference between the two? Yeah, I guess when I say pick, it's like you're trying to disrupt or you're trying to throw off the on ball defender.

I guess when I'm talking about ceiling, I'm referring to like picking players that might be adjacent to the ball or backing the ball or someone who's off ball. You know what I mean? So I guess that's how I differentiate between a pick and a seal. But in an on-ball situation then, if the elbow defender is guarding a righty and they were carrying it to the right towards the next defender.

You're talking about not setting a pick for the elbow defender, but rather sealing the next defender. Is that what you mean by that? Or the backer, right? So a lot of times like that. Would you consider that an on-ball pick if you seal the backer? I would not. I would not consider that an all-ball pick. Would you? No. But my topic was picking on ball and zone. And you mentioned that you seal for it. I'm trying to understand.

Yeah, so I guess to your point, not really. We don't set a lot of picks on ball for playing zone. I think being that we have the ability and athleticism to win matchups and free our hands and be able to feed and possess the ball. without having to maybe bring that pick. I think that's why we do that. I also think, ideally, I want to play inside the 12 offensively.

And if you're getting a lot of pressure in a zone, I think the zone gives you the ability to pressure the ball a little more. I think that's why a lot of teams do it. It kind of brings you a little further away from the goal. I don't think your slip is as effective if you're setting picks outside the 12.

But if you're sealing defenders that are helping in around the eight, or if you're sealing and slipping on backers who are hovering like between the eight and the 12, you're putting yourself in a much more dangerous spot off ball, which I think allows you to create. a lot more advantages and maybe receive balls where you want to, where you want to get your shot selection. I think it also puts a lot more pressure on the defense. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. I kind of like picking if you're player up, not so much to attack, but just to create space. Kind of like in men's lacrosse, when you skip it through an action, I call that a cheat code. But when it's all even in seven on seven and they're playing zone. You don't need a pick to get two on you the way you do in man-to-man if they're going to switch, right? And so you're not.

You can get two on you just by carrying it from that elbow to the next girl in the zone, and you're going to have two on you. Why waste an offensive player? to create something that you're going to get without them. And it puts more pressure on the defense, honestly, not to pick against zone, putting that person through. Now all of a sudden you've got two on you with the elbow girl carrying it.

backer or rover either way they're picking up the girl who clears through and now you've kind of got a little two-on-one below the elbow with the base defender into an ex-girl sneaking in the girl below. So I think that's kind of where my head is at. So it tends to be a little bit more cycling. I do see an opportunity to perhaps, if you can...

If you can extend the width of a gap with a pick, then I can see picking. And you might call it a seal anyways, but when there's two girls that are going to be passing you off, you're wasting a player to set a pick and zone him. Yeah, there's one clip that's ringing on the top of my head that I cut up and I remember watching last year where we've got some pretty dynamic midfield Dodgers, and this brings up the topic of conversation of being two-handed.

And this one kid, she's a left, she's a right-handed player, but she's playing on the left side because we don't have a ton of lefties that we didn't last year. And she just like is being defended towards the top of the 12 in the middle of the field. And she splits to her right hand, right?

So she's lefty, splits her right hand as if she's going to go down the alley. She literally does such a good job splitting this kid and attacking the gap between her on-ball defender and the girl on the elbow, and even draws the attention of the backer. So she literally draws three girls just with like a six split dodge. Swings the ball down to the low outlet player. And then we had, it was kind of a nation's action. We had a girl that was sealing the backer, but she kind of just, kind of just.

faded behind her because the backer started like almost sliding to the girl on ball and she was so wide open when she slipped into the eight because the on ball initial dodger drew three girls to your point it's like why

why have that kid setting a pick when you have like a girl that's like two handed with a sick first step drawing three defenders, right? Like just get the ball out of your stick and let's try to create something from there. So honestly, it's a great question, James. It's a really good question.

What you just brought up is a topic that I've been thinking a lot about lately, which is this dodge and kick concept. And I've been using that as a constraint for a while, but I've kind of scaled it to a much greater degree. And I feel like it's incredibly valuable for zone offense, player up offense, as well as man-to-man. But like what you just said, dodging the gap.

is going to get two or three players on you. But the issue with dodging, zones are kind of set up to not let you dodge, but you must dodge in a different way. And this is an interesting concept, Corey. Almost every player, men's and women's lacrosse, they're taught how to attack space. They're not taught how to attack gaps. And you really have to use deception.

to be able to attack a gap. And just because you're attacking a gap doesn't mean you're getting through it. But if you get two players committed onto you as you attack a gap and you move it, it's kind of the same idea as carrying it up or carrying it down. Sometimes you see people carrying fast from one girl to the next. That's not really doing it. If you can find a way to get into that gap, whether it's through the gap, the ideal, or just...

into the gap where you get them to commit to you and you can make a pass anywhere. Like you said, dump it low, throw it back, skip it ahead. things will start opening up. And if someone's not like wide open, like the girl was ceiling, because maybe three girls don't go to you. What it does is it extends the gap for the next player that really can slash right through it and getting your players to really look.

at attacking gaps and faking their way through gaps, slowing down. If you're carrying, if that righty girl is carrying it up and she fakes it back, usually that girl is trying to snap back. All that does is open up a gap to attack. I tried for so long to teach people how to fake back and step in. And I'm like, screw it. I'm just going to try to go through the gap. And I don't care how they do it. Get through the gap, but be able to make a pass.

And it's amazing what it does for the girls that are great Dodgers. Maybe their heads aren't up as much as they should be. You just make them do it. They will figure out eventually how to make a pass when they're getting through a gap. Yeah, you said something in a past podcast, Jamie, just about like how to transition into CLA if you're a coach that like, you know, doesn't follow that type of approach and take a traditional drill, like take a five on four drill. I did this.

last week at our 6 a.m. I'm doing it again tomorrow with our 29s and our 28s. And I just take a five-on-four drill, and I manipulate the constraints, and I change them consistently. And the constraints I'm going to do tomorrow are different than the ones from last week. But if you do that, you can emphasize any of these offensive principles. And the thing that we're specifically talking about is attacking guys. So it's like...

Why can't you give a point to the offense if they can draw two by attacking a gap and move the ball successfully to someone who's going to create an advantage, hopefully, or maybe get a shot off or maybe find the next girl and get an assisted goal? Just do that in an existing drill that you already have going on. There's something I've been messing with that I really like. Jamie, I want to talk to you about.

where we try to figure out what our gold medal shots are. I know they do in the hoops, but for us, like we're just looking for gold medal shots. Like, and the question is like, what is that? And where is that?

And something that it just kind of happened naturally, but you ever notice sometimes in the turf fields, if you slide the cage back to where the girl's crease is, you got the guy's crease right in front of it on the, on like the fields that are aligned. Like that's the perfect gold medal area. If you really think about it.

Because it's basically, it's like, you know, six by six. It's right in front of the goal. Ideally, I'm not talking about getting your body there, but if you get your stick inside that boy's crease before you get a shot off on a girl's field. Like that's your gold medal area. So what we've been doing is we throw a ring of cones right around the front of the goal. And I've been putting drills in where you can only get shots off.

your stick or your body's got to be inside that ring of cones, the gold medal area, we call it. And you might score a goal on a more low angle shot or a nice one down the alley because the opportunity is there. We don't count that towards the... you know, the point system to allow you to win the game, but it is creating so many pitches where girls, instead of settling for a long shot, they're hitching in the middle and then maybe getting and shooting around that defender.

It's creating that one more pass where it's like they're kind of running at an angle, but a girl's cutting inside there, she's open, boom, they move it. It's creating so many opportunities for girls like we were talking about. Instead of just settling for a shot, they quickly attack a gap and they get even closer to the goal and get a more high percentage shot off. And, you know, just in two 15 minute stations, it's so interesting to see how the shot selection changes.

by creating that little gold medal area versus just saying like, hey, this is the type of shot we're looking for. Score with your sticks to the middle. Hey, we're looking for assisted goals. Give them a specific landmark. And just watch what happens. Don't even give that much instruction. Honestly, shot selection is, you know, the number one principle for me for that reason. Because if you only allow.

gold medal shots whatever that definition is for you the athletes will figure out how to get gold medal shots that's but that's what's so cool about it and that's like the ultimate where principles of play become a constraint. They become a guide. They create intention with the players.

Their intention is not just to get a shot, not just to win, you know, beat a girl one on one. It's to actually get a gold medal shot. And they have to figure out how to do that. My gold medal shot is maybe it's the same as what you're saying. But it's more like a dunk, which is going to, I put a, if you could have a parallel curved line, I don't know what you call that, but the bigger circle around the actual crease.

That's kind of where I look for my gold medals, where it's all the way into a dunk. And then I'll get a silver medal that will be more along the lines of what you're saying, which is essentially like... Somewhere into the middle of the eight with your stick to the middle. And I'll give that like a silver medal. Sometimes I'll say a farther out shot with your feet set. Yeah. Which is interesting in women's lacrosse too because not many people practice setting their feet.

But learning how to set your feet, you know, obviously in men's lacrosse, you know, that's my silver medal in men's lacrosse. Good angle, 10 to 12 yards, time and room. That's a great shot you'd love to be able to get. Not as good as a dunk, but pretty damn good. And I think in women's lacrosse, you can get that too.

But I love, I want to go back to the comment you made for coaches that want to think about being CLA. Tomorrow you're going to do a five on four drill. You've got these whatever five. principles of play with your swagger. If you literally just think about your principles of play, of spacing, of actions, of shot selection or possession, however you call that, of deception and movement and...

And what was the final one, the R? Reading and executing. How could you create constraints? You take that same 514 drill, and this is, everyone's doing that 514 drill in one way, shape, or form, but it's the intentionality of... changing it, not just to change it, but within the context of your principles of play. And I think it's just a really great way of describing to coaches how you can do that.

I agree, Jamie. It's like, yeah, I can give you some concrete examples for sure. Do it. And I think, yeah, so an example would be, you know, what if you're forcing... I'm a time shot clocks. I use them so much. So you talk about what constraints are most popular for me as a coach that shifted towards this approach. And in shot clocks, I use them in so many different ways. One example.

Let's just talk about spacing, which is a big principle of ours, is if you cut into that gold medal area in your off-ball, we focus so much on the off-ball play because it creates – that is like – Pandora's box for creating advantages and great opportunities on offense, in my opinion, so much of the focus is the on ball. But if you cut into that area and you're off ball and you're uncovered, right? Like sit in there.

You know, if you're open, sit in there. But what if you get covered, right? What's the next step? So constraint we put in, if you're covered inside the gold medal area, you got one second to get in and out of there.

because what are you doing in there if you're covered? If your defender's in an ideal position to prevent you from getting the ball, you're just clogging space. We don't want to clog the middle. So that's a good one that creates great spacing, because what happens is you cut in there.

If you're open, it's a good spot to sit and become almost like a crease player for a catch and a dunk. But if you're covered, get out of there for maybe the next cut. Or get out of there so that way someone could dodge into that space if you're playing out of a 4v4 or 5v5 or even a 77 situation.

or if you're playing six on six for guys, or if you're running an off ball cycle, like if you're covered, get out of there. So the next cut can come in. They might be open. They might have an advantage and get inside their defender for a catch. I would even go so far as to say, if you're covered, don't even cut in there.

Sure. I mean, you know, once a lot of people, it's like, I don't know why you're finishing your cut because you're not open and you are going to jam up the space for the next player or a dodge. And you're allowing one to guard two, basically, and that's the problem. Which is one of the, for me, one of the most important principles of play is one can't guard two. Yeah.

If you allow one to guard two, then you're not helping the offense. That's as simple of a way of looking at it as you can. No doubt. Yeah, we call that concept hot lava. If you cut into a space and you're uncovered and then you get covered...

Like that inside should be like hot lava. You got to get out of there because like you said, what are you doing? So yeah, that's good. I mean, I'm manipulating the point system to get what you want. So I'm going to talk defense right now. So even though I'm more offensive minded, one thing that I hate.

If I'm playing against a defense, that's just really pesky and they get their hands on you in a disciplined, effective, and persistent way. So for example, if I have the ball in my hands and you're all over me, you're taking away the middle.

You're making contact with me and everything I do is going to be contested, whether I'm carrying the ball or trying to move the ball or dodging into you. If the defense can force a turnover by a player throwing a bad pass while you're contested and you're making contact on them, we give a point to a defense.

And what that does, it forces ball pressure. And it forces us to have to handle pressure. So what are you going to do with that pressure? Are you going to control the defender and square them up? Are you going to call for a pick over it to maybe free your hands up?

you know and get an advantage right you know are you going to step off and move the ball what are you going to do i love that because it kind of accomplishes something that really bothers me as an offensive player that's a very minute thing but defensively it's something that we really try to preach which is you know just a lot of ball pressure especially from the zone situation and there you just

You can go ahead and apply that to your five on four tomorrow and you can do it. Exactly. And if it's too easy for the offense because it's five on four, then. restrict the space and all of a sudden you've got you know got to keep it in the 12 or you maybe make a a arc of cones that's halfway between the 12 and the eight and now all of a sudden you know they're really dealing with pressure and it's in the in the defense

has a little bit of a bigger advantage to be able to put pressure on where they can't just run away from you and they got to figure out that space and handle that pressure. Yeah, no doubt. Something I've been thinking a lot about too recently, Jamie, is...

And I think this comes from like, you know, you know, growing up on Long Island where like everyone apparently knows everything about lacrosse and like we have it all figured out. There's a lot of like absolutes and there's a lot of things you've been taught growing up where it's like.

an example is like off off a ground ball you got to move it two times right and those are just things that are like ingrained in your head and i feel like if i never grew up playing lacrosse i would never even like think like that you know i wouldn't think that's like a rule of thumb and i was actually talking to colin

you know your boy about this because you know i just love the way he thinks about the game and you know just how how much he's progressed as a coach and how good of a job he does and it's like how can you create ground ball offense through the lens of the cla and i was telling him i was like i started doing something that i think you should try you might like it shot clocks off ground ball situations and i do it for two reasons the first reason is

It's really annoying when we just like drop the ball, when I know that, you know, no one forced you to drop the ball. You're just, you know, either you didn't concentrate and now the ball's on the ground. So it's like, yeah, you can kill the drill and say next group. or you can just create a shot clock situation where turn this into something, right? Balls on the ground. If you're, let's say just outside the 12, you got six seconds, you get a shot off, right? You might do that off of one pass.

You might do it off of two or three passes. You might actually pick the ball up. And for whatever reason, you got to run by someone and get a shot off. I started doing that. And I think it's a really effective approach to kind of just creating something out of nothing. And it's also something where it's like, listen.

get a shot off and get out of the drill because it's like the ball keeps hitting the ground. And if you're closer to the goal, maybe it's a three-second shot clock. Or if it rolls towards the restraining line, maybe you have seven seconds or eight seconds. Something that I've been messing with. But again, it goes back down to the absolutes of two passes off a ground ball or pass and cut. You're teaching motion offense, pass and cut. I don't really understand that. Why?

What about if you pass the ball and your teammate dodges towards you and you're adjacent to the ball? Maybe time up a cut underneath him with his dodge. So now at least you're cutting based on where your teammate's dodging. and you're actually like perceiving to act versus just like acting because you're supposed to just pass and cut so like these are like those absolutes that i'm building a list of and i'm trying to like combat because i feel like

I don't want like being growing up on long Island and like being taught the game, a lot of great stuff. And I've had some amazing coaches to like almost work against you. So something else to think about, I guess, as you're like adapting it. Yeah. I really like it. I mean, I think. Two passes off the ground is probably a lot better than people that don't move it off the ground. But I agree with you. It is an absolute that, you know.

isn't always going to be true. And sometimes they'll say like two passes off the ground and you got to swing it, you know, flip the field. I think the shot clock idea is a great idea, but I also think you could use two passes off the ground as a constraint.

bad thing to mess around with. It's, you know, principles of play can't be absolutes and men's lacrosse to do the same thing. I don't know if you ever hear this in women's lacrosse. You always have to have an outlet in front of him behind the ball. That's like the worst advice ever.

All that's doing is jamming up spacing. Really don't need an outlet in front of the ball and behind the ball at all times. When you need an outlet is when you need an outlet. And then you need to make sure that people facilitate that ball movement.

Back to the five on four with another principle of play. How might you teach actions and coverages? Yeah, no, that's a great, it's funny. Isn't it funny how you can take one drill and you can just like implement everything that you do? Yeah, actions are. are a big one i think like you know for us when you have an extra player right like what are the actions that you can do to create advantages and create good offense

Typically, they're predicated on movement. So now we're talking about ball movement, but they're also predicated on off ball movement. So instead of, you know, two man games and three man games, think about getting someone else open. Right. If you're going to get an assisted goal, it's got to be off of an awful action where you get someone else open. So this gets people out of the mentality of cutting for themselves, because I also think.

When you have some pretty skilled kids and you give them an extra player, that's your advantage in the drill. It'll be constraining the drill where it's a 5v4 situation. I think a lot of kids figure out where to cut, when to cut, and are open a lot of the times, and you typically find them. So how do you make it a little harder where...

You're now just not focused on cutting for yourself, but you're focused on reading the defense off ball and working together your teammates to try to get someone else open. So that's another one that applies to the actions principle. of like awful actions where it's like all right well you can seal your own girl next to you and then someone can cut off you but also applies to the movement piece of like all right you have an extra kid

And moving the ball typically is most effective, but what about moving, like, what about you moving yourself to create space or to get someone else open? So that's something else that we try to mess with a little bit that I'm going to, I'm going to do tomorrow. How might you do that with them?

Adding coverages. Yeah. So I guess on a five on four, one thing that I've been doing is actually adding an extra defender, but that defender is restricted as to what they can do. So you mean like a five on five with a restricted defender? Yeah, so that restricted defender, I call them a rover. They can only guard cutters that go into the gold medal area. So they are not allowed to defend anyone on the perimeter that is looking to dodge or facilitate.

they're straight up just focused on cutters. It's basically like five on five zone. Yeah, exactly. So that's a good way to like kind of constrain your defense to play in a way where you don't, it's not necessarily a five on five because. You're kind of really forcing that defender just to focus on like the off ball cutters. And then again, you can, you can mess with different.

different constraints with the offense on how you want to play off that. Like if that guy's guarding you again, put a shot clock in on how long you can sit inside the gold medal area. You can say, Hey, you can only get assisted goals. you can devalue or put more value into unassisted or assisted goals. Those are things that we like to do. And then you just kind of, you're surprised like how creative and...

you know, what type of plays emerge sometimes when you do this stuff, which is kind of cool to see. It is incredible how intuitive humans are. These kids are honestly, they've been handcuffed. They've been handcuffed with the fundamentals that they've been taught. They've been handcuffed with the basic concepts and principles of play that are these absolutes, you know.

Like getting big. Getting big is the worst advice a coach can give unless you're just trying to rest and you don't have a shot clock. Maybe it's because it's the end of a game and they have to pressure you. Sure. But you cannot score a goal getting big. And I just hear coaches say this all the time. It's pretty funny. But it is exciting to watch what they can do. And it's so much more exciting as a coach to be able to explore.

different constraints, especially if you see something that's not working. So that's a good question for you. Give me an example recently, if you can think of one where you're running whatever. drill with constraints that you wanted to, or maybe you're just watching your team and you recognize something that they're not really doing well, an individual or a group and how you were able to.

use constraints either in that drill or to create something new to be able to teach that? Yeah. That's such a good question. Cause like one thing that happens all the time.

it's like you're, as a coach, you're not getting the desired outcome. So like the, I think like the traditional approach and something that I did a lot when I was initially coaching was like, say the same thing I want done, like more. And you think like, if you repeat it more, it's going to happen. Or to the point where like, you have no voice.

I found that it doesn't work. So for me, it's like you got to change the environment, which brings us back to like your question, which I really like. And I think, again, you know, I think it's important for people listening. If you are transitioning over to this approach, like just.

Don't think about saying that same thing over and over. Think about changing the environment. For me, I give, like, I guess a more practical example. Like, we don't do line drills anymore unless it's, like, if you just want to get your sticks going before a tournament game. And a lot of stuff we do is keep away just to work on.

you know, the perception piece and, you know, and, and, and reading a defense and like handling pressure and all that stuff. And, you know, a lot of times kids can't handle pressure and sometimes it's like,

You know, I'm making them play in like a five, you know, seven yard by seven yard space too small. I got like really aggressive elite high school kids and the space is too small. It's like make it bigger. You know, that's like a simple example where you can manipulate the playing area to make. make it just a little more representative, but also a little bit more practical for what they might see in a game situation. So I don't know, that's something that's pretty simple that we can elaborate on.

I've done that. I've done that over and over because I always play in different areas. I'm always like on the same field, same, same day. I'm not a college coach. So like I might be playing in a schoolyard or a grass field or in an indoor facility. It's like, you know, you got to be adaptable. And you've got to see what's going on sometimes. It's as simple as changing the playing area. And I think another example is...

I'm a big proponent, if we're talking offense, of constraining the space. So we do a lot where you're just operating on one side of the field. But sometimes it gets to the point where like...

If you're not creating advantages and it's becoming increasingly difficult to make stuff happen on one side, you got to have the option to swing the ball and use both sides of the field. So sometimes practice will get to the point where it's like, okay, now I'm going to add either 2v1 or 2v2 on the left side of the field.

And we can still maintain a three to three on the right side, but you have the option to swing the ball. And then you can put constraints into get the players to like get the ball from one side to the field to the other more, more consistently. So for example.

putting in a shot clock where if you don't get a shot off within 12 seconds, you have the ability to swing the ball and it resets the shot clock. And now you're operating on both sides of the field and you're creating offense on both sides of the field, but both sides of the field are also interacting.

And I think that's something that I am constantly trying to think about how to not just create advantages by just using one side of the field, but how can I have both sides of the field interacting and reading and working together? Because when you do that. It's just like, it's very hard to defend and it creates a lot of high percentage shots. I love that. To give you an example of a practice that I was involved with last spring, kind of.

answering the similar question that I asked you. I was trying to get exactly what you're just saying. I had a pretty good group of girls at Moses Brown School, my alma mater. A lot of these girls are JMT athletes that I've worked with a ton. They really know how to play. Because of that, they were just kind of like getting shots off and getting looks constantly. And so I was finally like, all right, you guys got five seconds on the side. And I had never done that extreme.

I usually am in the nine seconds range, but I went to seven and it was too easy. I was like five and I was like really wondering if I was going to have to change it back to six or seven or eight or something like that. And immediately they were either getting looks or moving it and handling it and the ball was moving. And so it was just, you know, most of the time for me, these adjustments are just in real time. I'm trying to get something and it's not working.

and telling them isn't going to work. Using some kind of a scoring system or calling turnover or reset if they don't do what you're trying to do or penalizing the defense if they're not playing the coverage that you want. rewarding the defense when they do the coverage that you want. And all the things that you've already sort of said are these things that really help.

have helped me become a better coach and i think it definitely i know what makes the players better and more adaptable yeah what i love about that jamie is like don't you know how like a lot of coaches they want things to look clean

Like things were almost like looking so clean for you. Like you went against the grain. You're like, wait, we got to make this harder. Like a lot of coaches don't go that opposite direction. Like, you know, a lot of coaches like, oh, this is exactly what we're talking about here. Let's keep doing this girls. Like, this is it.

It's like when you have a great Friday practice, like crap on Saturday. It's the biggest recipe for like playing poorly is the false sense of being good because you've been, you're in this. West Jenny drill that is three on two and so easy to look good and zero, you know, element of challenge or whatever. And it's kind of funny. But, Corey, I got to jump because I got to zoom. I got to hop on.

Always love talking lacrosse with you. Always love seeing you. It's been quite a journey since I first met you when you were in third grade at Cold Spring Harbor Huntington. youth lacrosse when your dad hired me to do some clinics and we've been friends for a long time. So keep up the great work and I'll be chatting soon.

Thanks, Jamin. To your point, I'm going to be doing sharks and minnows at my son's flag football practice tonight, which I learned from you in third grade that day at Coles Ring Over. All right, man. Hey, have a great day.