Ecological Lacrosse Podcast Ep. 8 with Deemer Class, Founder of First Class Lacrosse

Jamie Monroe here. I'm excited to introduce this new show called the Ecological Lacrosse Podcast. The goal of this podcast is to help coaches of all levels learn to apply modern skill acquisition concepts to their teams in a cutting edge.

but practical way. In this podcast, we will discuss lacrosse in the context of principles of play and through the lens of ecological dynamics and a constraints-led approach. I guarantee adopting an ecological approach to your coaching will not only help you win more games, but it will create the best possible experience for your players, and it will change your life.

How's it going, everybody? Welcome back to the Ecological Lacrosse Podcast. Very excited to welcome Deamer Class, who runs First Class Lacrosse and the Best in Class events. a leader in lacrosse training and development. Really fired up to have you on the show here. Demer, how are you doing? Thanks, Jamie. I'm doing great. I'm honored to be on here. I've enjoyed listening to a lot of your episodes for this new series, so it's been enjoyable.

A few drills already and excited to chat today. Nice, man. Fired up to talk ecological dynamics and constraints-led approach. And I've got an interesting angle that I want to chat about. Best in Class has, you guys run some of the best events in the game. And I always tell people, I think you do the most.

I think you do the best job with it. I think you got took a couple of years to get the talent you want, but now you've got excellent talent. But I think you run a very well organized event. And I think you train within this approach as much to the best of your ability. I think you do.

contextual type of drills that are meaningful. I've seen film on it, not extensively, but I love it. But where I want to go with this is you have some of the best players in the country and coaches coming to watch them. And I want to talk about... Talent evaluation in the context of an ecological approach. And it's a big rabbit hole to go down. But what does that mean to you and what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's a great question. The first thing that it kind of takes me to is it's sometimes less about the outcome focus. I think when you just look at the regular... games that are going on you're seeing dodges goals double team slides just in like your normal environment and you know when i think about like the ecological approach and i think about some of the things we're doing on the drill side before some of those games, I think you're, you know,

trying to think about how how do players make decisions you know even if they threw the ball away there were they reading the second slide or reading the rotation or manipulating and That's kind of where my head goes with that to start, just because that's stuff that is harder to evaluate. Also, you know, I think it's harder to teach. And sometimes I've even heard the rhetoric from guys where.

You know, what do kids come into college not having to learn, you know, versus if you're trying to teach them everything from day one, you know, you just probably aren't getting there. So that's kind of like. where my head goes to start and i'm i'm curious to to kind of bounce back and forth off that yeah well i mean i think that The obvious thing that people look at first is what does the athlete look like? What are the physical capabilities of the athlete? And I think...

You know, there's no question that there's like sort of a baseline of ability that you have to have. But we have all seen at every level, at the very highest levels, players that are. clearly not as athletic as the people they're going against and having high levels of success, even at the pro level. We see this and we see it at the division one level as well, men's and women's lacrosse. And we also see incredible athletes that just can't make it. They seem to have all the size and the speed.

The two handedness and the power and all these things, yet they don't make it. And I just think that the topic here is how can what is what is an ecological approach to recruiting? And what I would say is that. It starts off with the fact that you cannot separate the decision from the skill and everything is about lacrosse IQ. Your ability to be skilled is your ability to operate within principles of play where your skills will emerge. So therefore, as we're recruiting.

I kind of look at it as like, okay, well, let's think about it in the context of principles of play. And because principles of play are what win you and lose you games. If the kids aren't playing for you, but they're that athletic, it's because they're not able to operate within principles of play. So let's take an example of a defenseman.

How could you view a defenseman beyond just the obvious size and speed and things like this that would allow you to see if they could operate within principles of play? Yeah, it's a great question.

And what sticks out to me for some of those defenders is, you know, are you seeing them in situations where maybe they're stealing space, but they're... being deceptive and bluffing a dodger you know out of out of a slide and and or out of a dodge and then you know getting their stick back in the lane as they're recovering to a guy or you know their

looking for, you know, smart opportunities to, you know, double team or, you know, take certain things away. And, you know, I think like when I think of even defenders, obviously, to your point. hey, we get really enamored with that 1v1 takeaway shutdown defender, but then sometimes you get them in rotations and they're lost.

Really good defenses might have one or two of those kind of guys, but there's a lot of other guys that are supporting that have enough physicality and athleticism to be good on ball.

but they can really be connected and operate within the team and so you know i feel like you're you're looking for that and and i agree like when you're talking about recruiting you know how many guys do guys talk about like oh this guy's got so much potential he's got these tools and we're gonna you know we're gonna like either work on his hands or we're gonna like work on the iq and develop him as like a project but but let's let's

do less of that and more like find those players that are good enough athletically. And then they're going to be able to play within the context of the game. Yeah. And within the context of how you want to play. Right. I remember asking Lars Tiffany a question. This was a while ago, six or seven years ago. I was like, hey, LT, what are the main things or the main thing you're looking for in a defenseman? And he goes, feet, Jamie. I want them to be able to cover.

And I was like, yeah, I get it. I like it. Now, what's the main thing you're looking for of who plays for you? And he's like, well, they have to be the smartest players.

Because that's back to the IQ and back to principles of play. So let's break it down even more. With the defenseman, the way I kind of look at it, there's sort of three major buckets. There's with ball, your ability to... get the ball off the ground, your ability to clear, your ability to attack.

and actually create offense i mean all those things um you know are important and there's a you know sliding scale of how much you can do any of those things the very best players like you see in the pll are actually incredible at creating, not just great at getting the ball off the ground, which is how your defensive possession ends, not just great at throwing overpasses and being solid in the clear, but actually great at attacking. Secondly, you've got...

Off ball, which involves so many different things as it relates to transition, defense, your ability, like you referenced before, to double team or to rotate or to help or to communicate. to steal space and slow play things. And as we look at all of these things, like, you know, that's what sort of are some of the things that would define a good defenseman. And then of course on ball.

You know how good of a cover guy you are, your angles, your shades, your approaches, how you use your stick to hold people to maybe put ball pressure on, but also maybe take it away. And so. If we're going to look at all of those categories from an ecological perspective, let's start with the with ball. What are some things that would tip you off that this player is beyond what...

The obvious of I can pick up a ground ball and run fast. What are the things that could sort of tell you as a coach? What are the things you'd be looking for? And you're an Italian talent evaluator as well. What are you looking for out of a player that way? Yeah, it's a good question. I love seeing how some simple offensive principles emerge with that guy. Can they pass down and maybe they're actively looking for a give and go?

you know like it tells me that they're aware for aware of that like ability once the ball moves they might be able to beat their guy and get open um you know i i think you know being savvy in the pick game you know those transition pass down pick down opportunities you know that that tells me hey like this guy can be a player you know coach danowski always talked about guys just being players like Maybe that guy had a basketball background or something that shows you that he can play lacrosse.

i i always find it interesting and you you hear it with like a lot of the the guys that you tend tend to maybe have some hockey backgrounds like guys who can pick up a ground ball but maybe they're toe dragging or evading um evading a rider and like a unique situation um i i think that those kind of those catch my eye because you're like that guy has some kind of handle lifestyle

Yeah, exactly. And I played with Ratliff. You were the coach that one summer, too, for the Blaze. When you see that stuff, you're like, that guy's got something there. that is is like unique to the hands you know and that's back to like it's really hard to teach hands you know like i think there's some guys are going to come in more ready to be able to to make those impacts so

Those kind of with ball things. I agree. I mean, just being able to go to the rack. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you know, Ratliff would split you up and shoot on the run. And, and, and, and really one of the. things that I love to see that I don't think defensemen do that much, but there's so much opportunity in transition is to dodge and kick.

You know, like where you're just hitching, winding up, attacking space. You know people are collapsing on you. You need to sort of like kick it out and just have this ability the way Canadians, you know, kind of like Zachary or Sly on the midfield. But it's not really fair to judge all the defensemen on this because they never do it.

when they're growing up i mean they do ground balls and overpasses and are basically you know live cones for the offense a lot of the time they don't get to handle the ball right um you know as much as it could But these are the things that make a big difference. And I would argue that your with the ball play is one of the things that will stick out the most.

to a coach because they can actually see it a lot like they can evaluate that it's kind of hard to see some of the other things maybe you're in a game for a whole tournament nobody dodges you if you're right what you can do is make plays with the ball Um, and, and be more than just, you know, listen, we want to, we want to head man the ball and, and, and, and not over carry it. And if someone's open, hit them, but being able to attack makes a huge difference.

Yeah, I think I mean, that's a great point. And it's also to me sometimes like one of those interesting things with recruiting of like, what are kids allowed to do? You know, what are they? what are they able to do in different situations? Like when it comes to recruiting, like you're talking about, Hey, you know, you could be in a tournament and not get dodged for several games. And then when someone asks a college coach, like, Hey, how'd that guy look? They're like, I didn't see him.

get dodged. So I can't really give him an evaluation on his feet. know but then maybe you go to a prospect day or you go to an individual event and you can put it all together in terms of being able to let some of those skills emerge and show yes a coach can get a full evaluation. Otherwise you could kind of get stuck in that blend in category. No, no. On that topic though, at your, at your events, are you aware of, you know,

How teams are playing as far as enough team play that you're going to like coaches are going to get a look. I mean, are you aware of this is like there's one black hole on this team that shoots it like 20 times a game and you're like, listen, bro, you got to move the ball.

Or you're not going to play as much because we actually want to play team lacrosse here because it will be so much easier for our coaches to evaluate everybody. If we're playing team lacrosse and the ball is being shared and everyone's getting a chance to dodge and defend and create. space, you know, all of that? Yeah, that's a good question. I think the, you know, you could probably bucket that as quality control. And that's something that we're learning every year as we do these.

um a recent thing we did you know not maybe like from a dodger standpoint but i think helped some of those situations is now we're changing face-off men every game So we have four games over two days, different face-off guys, different match-ups. That already has made a big impact in the last two to three events.

getting guys not having an entire half where they don't a goalie doesn't see any shots or whatever it may be so uh that's that's been helpful um you know look i i think we've had so many different coaches come through and and everyone's got different styles of coaching you know some guys are more reserved and like cerebral and some guys are really rah-rah and so you know we're we're trying to work with our coaches to develop that but

you know it's i do think it's like a fine balance too where you know okay a kid is a black hole do they not know any better You know, or are they selfish? It's not always the same, but they become one in the same. I mean, at the end of the day, they got to be able to move it. I mean, it's fine to be assertive. You need to be. In fact, the kids that are not assertive are probably not going to get recruited.

But at the same time, you know, if somebody never gets out of the way of your ex guy, you really want everybody wants to see this match up and no one's clearing through ever, you know, and. You know, and that's, that's a long topic too. And I didn't want to distract us too, too, too long, but it's, you clearly are thinking about these things because they make a difference, but let's turn, let's go, let's go to the off ball part.

Off ball might be where you can see IQ the best because you're going to be, first of all, off the ball most of the game. And second of all. You know, there's opportunities to play a lot of off-ball defense in different situations. What are some of the things that you would, if you were evaluating, that would help you identify if somebody's a really smart off-ball player? You're talking still defensively? Yeah, real quick.

One thing I look for, and I think it's a hard skill to teach or get guys to do, but I love the idea of thinking about scanning. How many head turns? is a guy getting in a possession. And to me, that shows that they're extremely alert of the on-ball and the off-ball. And while they're doing that, they're able to consistently check up on their guy. you know be ready to collapse you know at any given point

But also they're not getting like stuck in one spot that maybe like their guy drifted out the back and they lost awareness, you know. So I think that's something. And even when I watch Matt Dunn.

you know who's who's our partner in all this when i watch him even demo and communicate what he's looking for for some of the d guys when it comes to the off ball the amount of communication and the amount of like checking in and like you know eyes working back and forth even when he shows a demo for like 15 seconds i always find really impressive you know that's a really high bar but i think that's something to to be like working towards because

When I'm teaching offense, I'm talking about the sneaks and the fades and the backouts. And when you look at guys get really open, guys are kind of... gazing in one spot. And I just think you give up a lot there. Yeah, for sure. And the head turns are something miserable. I don't know, when I first started JM3, I used to do all these video assessments before I had athletes.

When I did defensive ones, we actually counted all the head turns as a part of it. We tried to evaluate it from a defensive perspective. And I know that in European soccer and stuff, they do that. They counted a lot of scanning on the off-ball side, but offensively, that is. I love that. And then, you know, from a communication perspective, too, I mean.

Communication isn't just I'm hot, I'm hot, I'm hot, you know, ball, ball, ball. You know, it comes down to, you know, can you figure out a way to evaluate the way somebody is actually accomplishing a task? of a slide in recover or helping somebody recover or... or sending them my way or you know setting up a double but with with a stay left or stay right call and you know that that stuff probably sticks out

To me, some of the most is with the way as far as that goes off defensively off ball. Yeah, I think the the presence there really stands out like you can feel a guy. And that's something that we talk about a lot, you know. can can your presence be felt on the field not only by your teammates but maybe your coaches or people kind of they're observing like i think that you gravitate towards guys like that because i think you inherently start to build a sense of trust that

that guy's with it maybe hey you're still going to make mistakes and maybe you're still going to get beat at times but you know that that guy's there he can guide you through things as a teammate and then it it helps the unit be connected and the more that the unit's connected

the more whatever the game plan is, you're probably going to be on the same page to be able to execute it. Totally. All right, let's turn the page to offense. What do you think are the biggest sort of... keys to evaluating great offensive players beyond the obvious, speed, ability to shoot it on the run hard, size, quickness, COD. How do you think people kind of get...

How do you think they get fooled a little bit, you know, when it comes to this? What are some of the things that would be the biggest identifiers for you of a really smart player that goes along with enough athleticism to play at the level you'd like them to play at or her? Yeah.

yeah i think going off that and it was funny actually i think on your last pod you were talking you were referencing like sours reaching out to you about like talking about slowing down you know yeah and so something that i see like like look you're always guys are going to get goals like simple move and go and shoot but the guys that i i really i think

have the potential to really make an impact at the next level are guys that are using change of speeds you know guys that are you know manipulating defense with pump fakes and change of speeds and bounce moves because i also think that those guys even if they can separate on that initial move they're gonna have to use those moves at some point

You know, because there's going to be guys that are just as fast and strong short stick wise. There's going to be polls that can win those matchups against you. But the guys that.

when it's kind of 50 50 and they're continuing their dodge and they're using changes speeds and using you know moves in and out to create leverage that stands out to me on ball and i think on ball too and i know you talk about it a lot but just the hitches and the wind-ups because there's so many opportunities to bait guys to think that you're shooting and then you keep dodging you know or bait guys to

I think that you're shooting and then you make a nice feed and get a ball through the defense. So the small group of players that comes through already demonstrating that skill set as sophomores and juniors.

those kids really catch my eye and and you can't always control like where they're going to get to physically like strength and size wise but when things start to even out as they get older in the high school like those are the guys that i think yeah fit in more at the next level you know and and when you look at these different rosters you're like hey well this guy's 5'8 he's making an impact this guy's 5'10 or 11 he's still making an impact or

you got these some guys that are six three six four six five that all they can do is run and shoot and you just slide to that guy yeah um so those are some of like the on-ball things that i think are unique and then like hold on before you move on so so The deception is probably one of, in my opinion, it's kind of the canary in the coal mine, so to speak, that indicates IQ and vision. And, you know, you think about from an ecological perspective, the word affordances.

which is like an invitation to act. It's the opportunities that allow you to make plays. It's recognizing the opportunities and not only. does deception disguise that opportunity that you're seeing, but it also can create them as well because it can create those overplays. And I feel like that is because of the way most people train. not in an ecological perspective. It's the deception that is literally physically easy to do. Anybody can look something off.

Just turn your head. Look, anybody can throw any of these fakes and everybody can go slower. But it's pretty unique because basically everybody just goes hard because of the constraints of the game. Right. Because you grow up more athletic than somebody else when you're younger and there's no team defense, you can just blast off and get to the net. And also because of the way I think most people train, which is, you know, trying to shake a cone.

focused on a specific exact move all the time. But the deception you talk about is so interesting and it's so fun to watch it with all the PLL players and the best college players. It's really the difference between good and great. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely, definitely think so. And, and you see it with the vision, like you mentioned to like just subtle look offs, you know, subtle, like, you know, finding a way to make a skip pass more open because you're not staring it down.

And yeah, it's for guys like us where we're talking about this a lot, like it feels simple, but then how do you get guys to do it? And that's what I really enjoy about some of the drills that we do at the event.

because they're not too specific like our goal is to make them not too specific where we're just trying to get them to do the same thing every time but we want them to be big enough and open-ended enough to where there's still some realistic looks but by putting some constraints on spacing or different things like you give guys freedom to try things and then you see like what guys are doing the same thing every time or

what guys are exploiting and manipulating the D and maybe getting underneath. And I just think as a college coach, you're going to events every weekend where you're seeing a lot of the same offenses. This is something different where you're able to notice who's actually taking that next step and doing some of those things. So true. And you use the word variability and it's so important so many times, you know.

players just do the same things and it's, you know, they could do a lot more and they probably train that way. And that's, that's another sort of ecological approach to this whole thing is like, Are we seeing a player that does a lot of different things? Can they dodge in a lot of, can they create advantages in a lot of ways? Can they create an advantage off of a hitch? Can they create an advantage when there's a shorty on them? Can they create an advantage against a pole?

Can they create an advantage from the wing or on the invert? Can they create an advantage with both hands or are they more one handed? Does it really matter? And just looking at. You know, a highlight video that even that has a lot of different things or any game, you know, when I was recruiting, I've said this on a couple of podcasts before, but I like basically would, you know, I love lacrosse, but I don't love.

crappy, boring lacrosse. And so I would just sit there all summer long looking for something interesting. Because at least it was a little different, you know, and you'd start to see somebody like, well, that's pretty interesting. I'm going to watch that kid a little bit more and then just see if he's doing more in different, interesting things, which is really all the hitches and hazies and deception that you're talking about.

But then there's also the element you referenced before that. So creating an advantage is part of a principle of play off the dodge, off the two main game, all that. But how about capitalizing on the advantage? And you've referenced this as it relates to if you just. A lot of players, it's no problem to create the advantage. They can run fast right by anybody, but then they can't do anything with it.

because they're not seeing sliders come to them. So they're just running right into a switch if it's a two-man game or right into the coverage of whatever that two-man game is or right into a slide. And I think that part of it isn't fair because they might not have really. been in situations enough where they have to learn to deal with that. And it's hard to evaluate if somebody has never tried something, how coachable they'd be and how much they'd figure it out. But that ability to really see.

what's going on around you and to be able to operate within that context of the defense's principle play, which is we're not just going to let you dodge to the net, which is kind of back to this whole Sowers thing where he's learning how to slow down and use as great as he is.

There was so much opportunity for him to get better using that type of deception. How much, how are you looking at those things? Yeah. So, you know, I think from a, you know, capitalizing standpoint, you know, you know, again, it's. Obviously, some guys and girls end up being able to, even in these kind of environments, like still get the same look. But once you start manipulating.

You know, hey, how are you capitalizing? Is it maybe a different finish? You know, are you able to get back underneath? Are you having your eyes up to the back pipe and being able to facilitate that way? you know i always find it too like interesting seeing like the deception of the shooters you know how are they you know simple things like staring high and snapping a five hole or you know incorporating a leaner and to your point

What I have always loved about doing this event is that with how many coaches we get there, we can pull kids out of the drills and give them a nugget. And then they're going to get right back in there and try to incorporate. And you can see how.

can someone utilize that in that next situation back and be begin to start to apply it yeah and just and and also not be afraid to try to apply it you know because hey it's one thing you're you're in a recruiting environment so you want to show well but then also like you want to show well by taking a chance at something that might give you more success um so

Yeah, I think, you know, just the capitalization piece is big because obviously that starts to become more tied to outcomes. Are you getting your hands free more? Are you creating more space for your teammates and drawing too? drawing three to a two-man game by how you manipulate so that's definitely something that's top of mind yeah

And honestly, like as as as great as the event is, you know, you got to watch film to be able to see a lot of these things just because you just can't see it all in real time. You can sort of see that athleticism. You can see that. You know, that presence, that burst, the competitiveness, some of those intangibles that you can't really see on film. But now off-ball is such a huge part.

of being able to evaluate somebody's iq um off ball has so many different you know sort of facets to it so many times you just think of like you know Off ball would be, I don't know, saying picks, it could be clearing space. It's great off ball spacing. That's part of capitalizing on advantages from a principal player perspective, not allowing one to guard two, all of the communication.

that goes on in that. And honestly, that, you know, massive amounts of advantages can be created or stunted without great off-ball play. What are some of the things you're looking for there that you think of? Yeah, so I think from, you know, and this also just comes to like relativity, like, you know, good versus great or average versus good. So many people are picking now just generally.

Like people are using picks. Kids are using picks in a lot of different situations. But I start quickly looking for who is changing up their looks. You know, we were talking to Scott Bita in the fall and he was talking about being multiple. being varied you know so are you starting to go from just the average pick or just coming in on a straight line to are you using swing picks are you coming over and

Maybe you're recognizing that it's big, big, but you're still going over to pick and then you fly by or you dive out of there. And we've been able to see some of that and we're like, hey, that kid is more. more slick maybe he's had more experience but he's obviously using the tools that that he's been given um so i i look for that stuff a lot in the pick game um i think one one thing that is

really underutilized that even as we teach it, it's hard for kids to put in the action is sealing your own defender. You know, whether it's an on ball, like sealing your own player and swinging your hips around or it's off ball.

like looking to seal the rotation or pin someone in but like i i see that stuff you know and i'm looking for it otherwise it's very vanilla so that stuff sticks out to me and then you know to your point like stunting the advantages i mean i i always just think number one is like someone getting stuck outside the dodge you know unless they're doing that intentionally to like tee up the dodge like you've talked about or

kind of be on some of that page like i just see a lot of kids getting in the way so are they are they fading to shooting spots are they you know are they just waiting for you to give it to them right right which you know again like every kid's going through that battle of like, Hey, I got to dodge more mom. Mom and dad's telling me to be more selfish. Like I got to get, get my opportunities. But if the play already starts.

you're going to look bad by just sitting there or you could be missing out on a way to score in a different way than you're used to, you know? And so maybe you can sneak a pipe or fade backside or cut through and then see cut back to the ball.

Or you're creating good space for your teammate. And yes, you don't get rewarded in this environment, but you're becoming a better lacrosse player, which when you combine your whole body of work, that's ultimately what the goal is. We want to be the best players that we can be. And well, the whole point of offense is to create scoring chances and create really high value scoring chances. And so the obvious way is off the dodge one-on-one, but there's so many ways to do it.

whether it's picking on ball or picking off ball or your spacing and all of that kind of stuff. And honestly, I feel like that's part of how, you know, you need to evaluate how good a player is, is how many advantages are they creating? John Crawley was talking about, you know, can you draw slides, create advantage, you know, beating your man, drawing slides. Can you create it in two man games? Can you create it with.

field flips and just swinging the ball, moving it really fast, right? And can you also create advantages through, I think you call it free-ups, where it's sort of an off-ball action of some kind, whether it's... Sealing for somebody, picking for somebody, slipping something, cutting and dragging somebody with you to free somebody up. And honestly, you can actually evaluate that.

Hard to do, hard to tabulate it in real time, but certainly on film, your ability to be able to create more advantages for your team is everything. And I think that this is like sort of would be an ecological approach. I think so many times, you know, back to the variability piece, there's a concept of functional variability is that somebody might might get recruited or not get recruited just by how they look.

Like that, that player, you know, it's like even in, you know, Billy Bean and in Moneyball, they talked about. it talked about like he looks the part you know he's like six four he's like a five tool player and all these things but but he actually like wasn't actually great at at the game and i think sometimes players can can you know

can fool you one way or the other. And I think that a simple way to evaluate this is, are you on the offensive side creating a lot of advantages? And on the defensive side of the ball, are you basically... Slowing down these advantages. Are you helping these advantages not to happen with the way that you guard the ball or the way that you're off the ball, communicating in position with your teammates? And it's so obvious, but I feel like it kind of gets missed. Thoughts on that?

I do think it gets missed. And, you know, you coach collegiately and obviously head coach and just a lot longer than I did. I only coached for three years. But something I wonder and even just thinking about, hey, like. You know, the scrimmages are end of January and then boom, week one, February, you're in games, you know, so that means teams are like in game mode. They've already made decisions. Rewind that to fall ball.

You know, you got your several week block of your 20 hour windows and you're competing for fall ball scrimmages. And then decisions are ultimately starting to be made about like who's going to play in the spring and everyone's got different philosophies. But my point being. like how much teaching time truly exists at the college level. Like, I feel like it gets squeezed. And so when you take that back to high school, I think you can get caught.

looking at kids and thinking about their potential. And we're going to do this with them and we're going to develop that. We're going to develop that. But then when they get there, if they don't quickly adapt and make that push. They're not even playing by junior year because they can never get over that hump of being in the true mix of the rotation. And all this kind of stuff that we're talking about is stuff that if you don't have to spend time teaching it.

or you can say it to a kid one time and they're like already thinking and then they can apply it and push it in to their games like Those are kids that I think find their way on the field. You always need Dodgers. You need guys that can draw some slides and do some of those things. But if everything is equal there, the smarter players are going to be the ones that make more of those impact.

They're active. They're around the ball more. If you are evaluating it in value, you know, these principles of play, which obviously you should. But if you're running like a picking offense, you better have players that are seeing the opportunities of what the coverage is giving them. Because you're just not, the pick is not, I saw a good quote on Twitter from Brian Kelly.

Picking two-man game is not a solution. It's an action. And the solution is how are they guarding it? How are we going to create an advantage off of this based on the coverage? How are we going to either... get a step to the goal with or without the ball? Or how are we going to get two on one, two defenders on one offensive player? And there's tons of details. You talked about changing up the different ways that you kind of.

Pick when you talk about a flyby, it's because, you know, it's a pole and they're not that worried about switching pole to pole. So you can get open on that or on a swing pick. You're leaving your defender on the wrong side. So you hop over and flip the pick to the other side. And it's the same thing with sealing your own.

in and creating space behind you or being able to like jump off of that seal in sort of like a triple a and all of these things will factor in you know when you see two man game not work It's because of one of these principles of play.

You know, same thing with, you know, if the Dodgers too far away and they're not engaging their defender and you try to set a pick for them and they're like eight yards away or women's across, the pick is at the eight and the girl with the ball is at the 12th. It's not going to work.

to engage defenders to be able to make that stuff happen and so i think with this ecological approach we're looking we really do want to sort of see what the outcome is what is the outcome did we get an advantage or not and how did we get We don't really care how they do it, but what we do care is that it does happen within these various coverages and all of these things off ball. I like the way that you say that.

care as much on how it looks or what actually is being done but you want to get to the end goal you know which is if you're on the offensive side create the advantage and put the ball in the back of the net and so you know obviously if you know players are getting rooted into doing the same thing consistently and it's not working well hopefully even that feedback is like hey we gotta we gotta mix it up but trying to do that sooner

and use you know dip into that well of of tools of things that are going to try to give you advantages based on what the defense is doing or or vice versa you know that that's the key and i i feel like in my my own journey even you know doing more of the pairs at usc to then really opening it up more at st paul's was i was kind of getting to the point of like

doesn't matter if there's four or five or where people are it's just we're triggering with some kind of pick action and we have to change it up we have to read how the defense is playing and we need to be active and and trying to create advantages off the ball and then from there like you have to play you have to then you got to swing it and have some of those principles that you believe in but

that's kind of, you know, and again, like I think your, your teachings has influenced me in that and moving in that direction. And so that's where, you know, it's so interesting tying it back to recruiting too, but we need players that can play like that. Totally.

One time I've challenged a couple of girls that I work with to being able to run. I was like, in your next tournament, go and set. See if you can set so many off-ball picks, slips, seals. And let's just be able to make a highlight video of you running actions.

And I don't want this to take away from you making plays with the ball. Like you need to go get the ball. And I don't think it's going to, because I think you can cycle right out and be in open at the right time to be able to receive the ball and make all of your plays with the ball, but off the ball. What if we were to make a video, like a highlight video of not just the highlights of goals, but of advantages created?

And a couple of these girls took it to heart and it was actually unbelievable. They had like a four minute video from a tournament of how many times, whether they even received the ball or not, how many times they got other people open. by sealing and calling their name or by slipping a pick or by getting somebody to pick for them, which is a little harder to do. But at the end of the day, there's so much opportunity without the ball.

I would say more so even in women's lacrosse and men's lacrosse. Sometimes in men's lacrosse, it's like a little bit more spacing oriented in the way the offense is playing. But there's still opportunity, a lot of opportunity, actually. And it's like these are the kinds of things that.

Almost nobody does. And it's such low hanging fruit. And it will show that IQ you're talking about because if all of a sudden you're sealing somebody and you can see you're motioning for somebody to come use you and you use me, use me, I'm sealing for you. setting picks for people and and saying hey i'm picking for you and then slipping it and starting to figure out it does show your ability to have this sort of level of iq and you know it's it's it's really what

what makes teams great because you're just not going to score just going one-on-one all day long. You're gonna score through all of these other opportunities that are created through a whole team. of people that are trying to play team lacrosse. And if you can get guys or girls to do more of them in any possession, you're giving yourself as a unit more opportunities for the other side of the ball to make mistakes.

and and that's where you know i think a lot of times like you know again like my first exposure to running like a pairs like offense was 13 14 back at duke but if you were if you're just doing it one time like hey pass and pick and then you think you're gonna get a goal like that's when the defense is most ready so if you keep getting players in the mindset of actions and actions and cuts and recuts and just being extremely active at some point

there's going to be that window where you can capitalize and a coach cannot script hey pick repick slip here do this like it just isn't going to work like that and the more that you try to do that i think the more that you're stripping the player of that discovery process and that growth process of taking more ownership of being like that totally

The idea of shared affordances is one that I listened to on a podcast recently. I might have talked about it with Mikey last week, but it's what team offense or team defense is all about. It's where multiple people are seeing the same potential opportunity, whether it's on either side of the ball. And so if we're talking about offense, it's like a player recognizing that there is a.

Two man game going on and there's about to be a switch and that third player getting open and communicating. I'm your nation's feeder. I'm your nation's feeder. And being able to capitalize on that because the pick and roll. We'll probably be there when we see this one girl slipping and two players engaged in a switch. But the whole defense, if they're any good, they've got shared affordances too. They can see.

that advantage about to happen. So if you try to feed a pick and roll every single time, you're going to probably end up turning it over a lot. But if you throw it to that third player and that third player is seeing it happen and positions themselves with the right spacing. and to facilitate that ball movement. Now all of a sudden, you've got...

You know, you've got real team offense. And that's kind of why the CLA to me and ecological dynamics and all of this ecological approach are so important because we're training this stuff all the time. Everything is contextual. And it all builds into the communication that indicates IQ. It builds into the deception of how you're going to set up picks, not project that someone's picking for you so you can get that step and not setting these obvious. Slow.

picks, but rather setting them with some deception and being dynamic about it. And then having the off-ball players both recognize how to create actions, but also how to facilitate ball movement. And now we're talking about IQ. It's incredibly exciting to see and to talk about. It kind of makes me think of, what that idea makes me think of too is, and I even think of myself playing, like being a shooter coming off a screen on the backside.

You know, the outside guy is coming in and maybe sealing his own guy. And that defender is gazing at the ball. And the sealer and the shooter coming off are both recognizing, like, the advantages created. And a lot of people talk about, hey, when you're off ball, demand it. But really being like, holy crap, I'm open, swing the thing, and flashing your stick, it's because you know that we have that guy pinned.

And that's like even when you were talking about, you know, evaluating kids off ball, like, are they seeing it? Are they understanding? Like, that's even another little situation where they clearly have the sense of when the defense is trapped or.

We've got them pinned on the backside. And if we can communicate that openness, we're going to get a shot out of it. Totally. So why do you think, and I'm sure you've seen this as a player.

at duke and as a coach at usc and i've certainly seen it a lot too but why let's talk about like when when when there's when when a player it doesn't work out for them like when it's not it's not working what why do you think sometimes a coach in their recruiting can think think this player was great but then they ended up and ended up being a miss

Yeah. Good question. And are you saying more like, like from what, what context are you saying? Like, I don't know. It's just like, we've all, you know, you know, just think about the NFL draft, you know, like people get right. Right. I mean, it's hard. It's, it's, and I'm not saying this, it's easy. It's incredibly difficult. Sometimes you really did get it right, but they just were injury plagued. Or sometimes you got it right, but they just didn't love to play. They were really, really good.

and they liked being good, but they just don't love to be out there. So they, they, they don't, they quit or they've got other, you know, priorities in their lives. But then there's some players that you'll just see where they're just like, they were really, really good and they just didn't really work out. We see this. And I think that there's sort of some ecological explanations to that potentially.

Most likely, honestly, it would probably the explanation probably would come from looking through it with an ecological lens that maybe they just really don't see the opportunities around them. They really struggle to see. the opportunities. They have these action capabilities of being able to blow by people, but they can't really see.

the field that well. They're not seeing the sliders. They're not really seeing two man games. I was just curious if you, if you had any sort of thoughts on that, or maybe it's there, there being, you know, it's a. it's a square peg round hole issue where like they're they're being told to play in a certain way that just doesn't actually fit how they why you recruited them in the first place

Yeah, no, it's a great point. And it makes sense. And I do think a lot of the things that you just said are all different reasons, you know, and I keep coming back to like I was a... it's funny i ended up being a sociology major in college you know and and you're you're learning about different environments you know and then ultimately like what is what is happening or occurring you know

that might have an impact on that player and i i think that that can be so many things you know even thinking about the person that in high school or even look like some guys in college get it too like they just keep getting what they want But there's not enough constraints that are, you know, forcing them to adapt and figure it out in a different way until maybe it's too late.

upbringings or to your point like i i've seen this too in different areas you know sometimes even in hotbed areas i think some kids lacrosse is just can be what you do and everyone's doing it and it's like this thing that you should do because all your peers are And you get to the point where, and hey, you're good enough to get recruited to college, but then you don't really love it that much. You don't love that process and that development angle. So then I think you get to a point where.

Your career might just get cut short or you're not like you're plateauing in your growth. And then maybe you're a sophomore or junior in college and you're like, hey, this isn't going to be my full time job. So I'm going to focus on my internship. like i think that's a real thing in our sport too because you know the the full-time aspect you know not everyone's dream is to play pl or team usa you know so like

But everyone says that, right? That's the right thing to say. But it's not like not everyone's feeling that in their bones. So I think there's there's certainly so many different ways. And I then I think back to the.

you know the the offense and like you're recruited to play at a school but yeah if you're not recruiting that kid with the mindset of like this is how we're going to use them and this is how our scheme is you can pretty quickly write them off and say hey they're not getting it done like it's not what we want and then that kid's kind of stuck there and then do you do you leave a really good education to go play lacrosse

at a different school that maybe really wants you or you're so happy with your friends and and your situation that you're like i'm just gonna gut it out and i got two more years left and that's that but in in hoops or football like that's the transfer portal

You know, that's that's like go find that home so I can keep pursuing my dream. Yeah. Well, the reason why I brought it up was because I wanted to I wanted to go in the direction of talking about. This idea that Alex Sarama talks a lot about the concept of rate limiters, which is basically something that's holding an individual or the team back from.

performance and you know sometimes it can be so if we talk about the individual it could it could be um it could be physical um they're just not fast enough or athletic enough or strong enough to do what needs to be done or it could be you know mental it could just be a confidence thing where they really need you know mental performance coach But usually what it is, is perception oriented. It's usually that they're not seeing the opportunity that's presenting itself at the moment.

those those affordances those invitations to be able to like make a play because of how that maybe the defense is playing or or how the your your offense is playing you're not seeing it that's that's where defensemen have a hard time getting on the field if they're just

if they have a really, really hard time at evaluating the quality of defense on the ball, that was what Mikey and I were talking about last week. That's like maybe one of the most fundamental things on defense is that you have to be able to, you know. see is somebody getting beat and what's the next role in recovery you know of stopping that play as a team member of the team defense um and on offense you know it could just be if you just like literally can't see

a slide coming your way, or you just get, you just, you know, a lot of players grow up going one-on-one looking at their, at their man. And they just dodge and they're, they're picking their head up later to figure it out. And so. The hard part with this is a lot of times for, I think, the hard part for athletes. And one of the things I want to sort of talk about and get your opinion on is a lot of the feedback is just too generic. It's like, well, you need to go work on your defensive footwork.

Yeah. Work harder or, you know, work harder. You got to get better off ball. You know, the defensive defensive footwork one is just so classic. Like go do. a bunch of drills on a cone is if that's going to help you with your shade and your approach and where you're on the ball. Are you on the ball far out? Is it near? Is it a lefty? Is it a righty? What are all these variables that are occurring?

Are you on the island? Are you at the hashes? And so all of these things are so specific. And it's chew off ball too. I mean, is the issue off ball that you're... constantly allowing one person to guard two? Or is it an issue with the way that you're picking? If it's a two-man game... Your two-man game is not going to just work because you run a two-man game. So what is holding back the player? Is it their pick setup? Are they being very predictable with the way they're...

dodging off of a pick so that everybody sees it coming a mile away? Or is it the same thing with the picker itself? I know we sort of use these examples a couple of times, but they happen all the time. They happen every single time. And that's when, if you're going to go back and look at your team and actually look at, all right, how many advantages are we really creating? And why are we not creating them? So I'm curious.

in your coaching, how you view individuals from this perspective of a rate limiter. And then how you would go about using constraints to try to make it happen. Because the explanation from the coach doesn't work. We all know that. We've said these things a million times and that's the frustration sometimes. Right. But but so we've got to find ways to put them in situations. Can you identify some ways that you like to do that?

Yeah, no, and it's a great point. And I haven't heard the rate limiter piece from Alex yet. So I'm definitely going to go look for that. But it makes sense. And what it also makes me think of, Jamie, and I'm curious if this is what you're thinking too, like... to your point like confidence working harder different things like you can get pushed in those directions but even if you get better in those doesn't make you better at the perception that would make you better at your pick setup

Right. So then you're going to come back to that same, you're going to be in those same situations again. So it's like you, you have to address that. And yeah, you might be able to.

address the mental piece or maybe you're dealing with some off the stuff field and i think that's fascinating about coaching in general just because you can go in a lot of different directions but pulling it back to the on field and the the rate limiters and those things you know that it's a great question and and i think trying to identify what those are with those kids you know ends up becoming you know how you

create some drills around that i mean you know i've enjoyed from like a dodging standpoint just trying to create different on ball and different sliding situations and different off-ball players in those drills to where like I'm probably doing less than I ever have of actual 1v1 dodging type of stuff and but more about dodging with

possible slides possible off ball so that you're trying to pull in that context of scanning looking reading while some of those uh you know moves are happening you know and then trying to reinforce Maybe it's the setup or different things during a drill like that. And then coaching more of the defense in the drill to pull out those different possible opportunities where they could. make those changes, you know, or they could, you know, perceive a situation and then act on it.

Well, of you setting up, setting something up and then seeing something that was kind of getting in the way of that, of this athlete, maybe a specific. So the coaches listening can. can try to use a drill. One of the things I want to do in this podcast is give practical examples of stuff. Maybe you could be specific. One that I've loved doing and, you know, I've always loved, and again, it's not an ecological drill. It's, you know.

We always caught it over the cone, like sweeping, turning the corner and really emphasizing like moving to the net on the run. One constraint that I added was I tried to add an off ball player fading. And I added a defender splitting to, you know, defender covering that off ball guy. And now as that guy's sweeping, you know, and working to turn the corner and you can put a defender on him or not, but now you've got the off ball.

hedge guy hedging and getting back or delaying and doubling and now as that guy's taking off full speed to turn the corner he's making that quick decision on throwing it forward and maybe getting out with his feet or using pump fakes to manipulate and then no slide comes turn the corner shot you know and when we've added a goalie in there that's been even better because now you're actually working on your deception too and your placement on the run

And I think that situation just comes up a lot, you know, a guy attacking across the top and you're reading that adjacent situation. We've layered on that. I mean, if you're adding a defender to it. It is ecological because there actually is a decision to be made. If it was a cone and a drift with no defender, there's no information to take in.

and yeah well that was the first one just the over the cone like that was the least ecological and then hey adding the fade and the the the slide guy so that's been great you know and then i layered on to that adding that be an off ball

you know, 2v1, pick and slip while that situation's happening, off the ball, turn the corner. So it's still some part versus whole, you know, but getting some shooting drills and things where... we're now still making some decisions i found that those are ways that we can isolate some situations that maybe they're struggling with but can still start to pick up the

the reed and then apply it back to the you know when they're in those broader situations so um that's been one i i've enjoyed too like you know similar things with underneath dodges and working on that fade at x piece faded x versus a sneak and trying to add some of that like defense and situation and um you know some of those have been where that guided defense idea

I think has come into play more to try to just tease out some of those that they can build up some of that decision-making and understand the actual situations that we're talking about as coaches. Totally. And I agree back to that drift, turn the corner. Obviously, if you want to make it more representative, you put a defender on the Dodger. Yep. And for coaches.

If you just had a straight up one-on-one, they'd probably just take it away, right? And all of a sudden you can't run the drill and you were trying to get this look. So that's where advantage starts come in. You could give that guy a... a shade that was giving him the middle. And now all of a sudden he's, he's going to be able to turn that corner and, but he's got that pressure on him of where he's going to either, you know, and now the defender on that show actually has a read.

Right. Because now that that player that's going to either try to like get, you know, they don't really want to go. If there's no read, they just have to go or don't go. As opposed to realizing that, hey, this guy. Got a step, but he didn't really put his body in and he's going too fast. And now I can really guard two guys. And I think that's that's the whole beauty of this ecological approach is just figuring out how to make it representative, but how to get what you want.

How would it make it so maybe you really wanted a shot out of it? You know, you said you want to have a goalie in there and you're really looking for a shot. So you don't really want full. on defense. And that's back to this guided defense. You want actually a real look, but you might have to give an advantage to the Dodger enough that they're going to either get a shot or a quick pass for someone who's going to get a shot. And I think that's...

That's really cool. What about, do you ever run sessions and you're just noticing that the ball's not moving very well? You know, everybody, no one's scanning, obviously, because every time they catch it, they're looking around and hanging on to it for a few seconds, even if it's sort of like an uneven type of a scenario. That would be a rate limiter, right? Maybe for the whole group or maybe for an individual.

But what are some constraints you might use to try to help people understand how to move the ball rather than just being like, come on, guys, move it. Or rather than just being like, you have to, you know, a two second rule with the ball that that is like.

can kind of work but it isn't really a fix for um necessarily for decision making yeah no that's a really good question and and that's that's one that i honestly like i want to keep learning like i I would say to your point about the two-second rule, I've tried to just stick more in the three to four-second range when I've done stuff like that because it puts some pressure on getting the ball out of your stick, but not to the point where...

it's unrealistic and we're moving it just to move it um you know but you know i've i've enjoyed like using um using feeders in our drills where where you know 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s plus one or two feeders. And I've kind of tinkered recently with an idea of having a floating feeder where they're moving just freely throughout. you know, the space of play and trying to encourage them to be active and, and talk through with the offense so that where the feeder is or where the open like.

you know obviously you can move it to anyone but where the open person is that's wide open um that's just changing um so that's those have been ones where you know and again to the point of sometimes when you're in a 4v4 and you get so focused on off the ball. Like sometimes kids are forgetting to pop out or make themselves available to facilitate the ball movement. It's not just all the, the ball carriers fault. You know, so.

I think adding those plus ones in different spots have been good for that because if you realize that you're kind of stuck on your dodge, well, there is a more. you know, available person there that we can move it to and then they can swing it and facilitate some of that. So I found those to be really helpful and simple. Yeah, I agree. I feel like the feeder, adding feeders, I like doing too.

What I don't love is when you just like have it where it just throw to the feeder and everyone starts cutting around and then they're just sort of standing there feeding people. Right. Although, although I could see sort of doing that in some ways. Let's say there's a feeder on the lefty side and you wanted to really work on some off ball two man or three man picking actions to be able to actually get open that way. But a lot of times.

A lot of times what I try to do is I'll say, okay, you can only use the feeder if you've created an advantage with the ball. So if it's a two-man game and the... Defender goes over the pick. You can use the feeder to get it right back on to give and go. Or if it was like a dodge with a mirror.

You can only use the feeder if you drew the slide so that they can then throw it to the guy who's open as opposed to just chucking it. And I feel like these are some ways that – I bring it up simply so that coaches can think of some ideas. But when you're thinking –

about, okay, we're, you know, it's not good enough just to throw it to a feeder. He's wide open and just start cutting around. I mean, it's fine. You can get some off ball actions out of it, but really what we're trying to do is how we're talking about cap creating advantage and then capitalizing.

capitalizing on it with with ball movement and have you sort of found that similar scenarios when you've added feeders yeah no and that's where you know sometimes i've i've gone away from doing it as much um you know and going back to some more evens because again like if you just throw it like i've had to where i've had to tinker with some of that too is sometimes

sometimes players get the ball and then throw it to the feeder before even a pick action, you know, and then it's like, we kind of have to rewind it. Hey, we want to make sure we're, we're triggering here with two man game. And then you've got the feeder there as another person to look for nation's looks or give and goes.

You know, and then yes, if that person's standing there with the ball. So I've definitely run into that. I really like the idea of, you know, being specific on if you create the advantage because. Then, too, now the player is trying to look at, well, did I create the advantage or not? And if they didn't and they just threw it, well, then that's a coaching point. That's a coaching opportunity where they get that feedback.

i i'm with you on that and um and and especially too like sometimes you get feeders there that are a little flat-footed and if they're holding on to it for too long like you gotta get it back into the drill faster so um Those are good things to think about. Totally. One constraint I like using to get people's heads up is just simply in a small-sided game saying that, all right, we're playing a game of four-by, which is a...

four on, you know, becomes a four on three game. And just to basically say it's make it, take it only if you get a quick stick assist and you can score however you want, but. You've got to make it take it if you can get a quick stick assist on the play, which is like the ultimate way of scanning. And it's really like if you're on your game and you're playing a little three by.

You're trying to figure out where those next passes are every single time you're receiving it. Is it cross crease? Is it a skip? Is it, you know, whatever, whatever it is. And so this, this is what's so amazing about the CLA. And if you, if we can like be very specific with. the things that players need to do and figure those out. And then we can figure out constraints. They will learn how to do it. And of course, it all has to be relative to principles of play. So back to the feeder thing.

If you're just chucking it to the feeder and cutting around, is that really adding up to what you were trying to get out of the drill, which was we're trying to actually create an advantage here with our two man action and then use a feeder. And that's a little different than just chucking it over there and starting to cut around. And so I think it's really interesting stuff. Well, and I think just going off that, and I know you have a stop here, but, you know, you're also...

When we're working with so many different levels of players who have experienced some of this, like all good, talented players, but just have experienced the depth of where you can go with this. Sometimes that first way of like.

If they throw the ball down there just to throw it, I let some of that go because then, all right, they're exploring their movement. They're looking for give and goes. They're cutting. But then we got to pull it back a little bit and, hey, we want to isolate some two-man game.

Now you're working on some two-man game, but they're throwing it just to throw it, and they're not reading the advantages. So, like, that's where I think it's fascinating because you can kind of scale it up or scale it down based on kids' success rate.

and then i love and i love your idea of like adding the point or getting make it take it if you execute this because that's like the ultimate positive reward you know you get the extra possession versus hey if you don't do this you're going to run a sprint you know or xyz so i love how you can shift it in that direction where the things that feel really good you you reward totally

And, you know, in the end, you talked about this with the way you said, all right, I have this feeder and sometimes I'll tell them to move all around. That's just a variability piece. And in the end. When we're trying to develop our players, we need them to be adaptive. We need them to be able to adapt to so many different situations. And that's really what ecological dynamics is all about.

Dynamical systems theory is all about complex systems. Your body is a complex system. Just think about the coordination that goes into any lacrosse play with all your joints. and the stick and the situations around you and your body parts and how you're doing that and how it's literally going to be different every time, depending on the situation. And it's pretty amazing, actually.

And then the team offense is a complex system where or team defense where there's so many different things going on. And so that's how we have to train. And if lacrosse IQ. If the definition of it would be along the lines of being able to operate skillfully within principles of play. And we know that the game is so insanely variable based on all the individual constraints of every individual person and every individual matchup.

environmental constraint of the game pressure and the culture and you know the fans and the noise and the field you're on and the temperature the weather whatever and then of course the interacting constraints with your task constraints of the situation. Is it transition? Is it settled? Is it zone? Is it man? What defense are they playing? What actions are we running? You know, all of these things are happening all at the same time.

And that's what makes the game so amazing. And that's why I'm so excited about doing this podcast and why I wanted to chat with you about it because I know you're super into it. But as coaches, that's what we're trying to do is create the most adaptable players, not only because it makes them better, but also because it'll help us win.

I mean, we want to win games. That's why we're doing it. And when we see something as a coach, we see the opportunity for an adjustment that can be made based on the coverage that your opponent is doing. To have a player that knows, understands this because they've practiced it and done it and they can be adaptable is going to, you know, just simply allow you to win more games.

Anyways, Deamer, so great having you come on the show. I really appreciate talking lacrosse with you as usual. Yeah, thanks, Jamie. Keep up the great work with the podcast and appreciate you having me on. I've enjoyed the past episodes and excited for the future ones. awesome man keep up the great work on your end and we'll be in touch awesome thanks jamie thanks man