Ecological Lacrosse Podcast Ep. 2 With Lars Tiffany

Jamie Monroe here. I'm excited to introduce this new show called the Ecological Cross Podcast. The goal of this podcast is to help coaches of all levels learn to apply modern skill acquisition concepts to their teams in a cutting edge.

but practical way. In this podcast, we will discuss lacrosse in the context of principles of play and through the lens of ecological dynamics and a constraints-led approach. I guarantee adopting an ecological approach to your coaching will not only help you win more games, but it will create the best possible experience for your players and it will change your life. How's it going, everybody?

Welcome back to the Ecological Lacrosse Podcast. Today, I have my great friend and former teammate and former co-captain, University of Virginia head coach, Lars Tiffany. LT, so fired up to have you on the show, man. It's always good to be back here. And we're going to talk ecology. It's actually something I studied. I studied that in college. I was a biology major, and we had ecology and evolutionary.

Micro ecological approach. Let's talk ecological approach lacrosse. Let's talk a little ecological approach. You know, look, I think this is the the most to me been the most. interesting stuff i've come across in my career and even though

Not everybody is adopting an ecological approach. They're doing it whether they realize it or not. And I would say on the defensive side of the ball, coaches naturally have to be more ecological because your defenders have to react to what's happening.

and you can't be too scripted. My first question to you is, how much have you learned how to, as a defensive coach, how much have you learned how to allow your players to sort of read and react and evolved in that direction from A time when you might have been more scripted in your approach to everything from exactly how people had to hold their stick to how they might exactly how your slide packages would work and how much of it is in React and how much of it is sort of set.

Yeah, isn't it wonderful as we go through another biological term, the evolutionary, the evolutionary changes of offenses. We now have to react as defenses. We are in an era now of lacrosse. where there is a much more freedom of motion off-ball by offensive players. And in particular, there's a lot less of adjacents available for the offense.

With much of my construction as a defensive coordinator, there typically were adjacents that we could then take advantage of defensively, whether it was shading, hedging, or truly sliding from. We are now experiencing and witnessing the evolutionary chains of offenses where there's oftentimes not adjacents. Now, for some older school offensive coaches, that's blasphemy. You don't have an outlet? We need outlets, fellas. We've got to have outlets. Well, defensively...

I was able to take advantage of that. Now we're seeing if we don't have adjacent outlets offensively, then defensively, we've got to be able to react and come from the inside and slide more from the crease more often. But what if there is an adjacent that was supposed to be there or maybe not supposed to be there? So your question hits right at the heart of where we are a quarter of the way through this century. In the mid-2020s, Jamie, we are a read and react defense.

We have simplified our defense. It's almost like you have to, the more scripted the offense, the more scripted I can become. The more loose the offense and the fewer the outlets. I've got to give my defense a couple weapons and that's it. And so we are becoming much more read and react. Do we have Jason? We come from the crease and go.

What are some of the actions that you're sort of seeing as far as like taking away Jason's? How are they doing that? You know, for example, the drifting, that description of a top dodge, let's say someone's dodging up top down the alley. Forever. There was one, maybe even two offensive players behind the goal at X to serve as outlets. Now, typically there might be one, and then he departs.

He drifts away from the Dodger. He may not even remain an outlet. He might drift away and then curl into the crease. And vacate. And so that original Dodger may need to actually continue to run through X if he wants to get the ball to the backside. We're seeing several Division I offenses do that. And there's this one example where now we're being exposed of.

Okay, well, we can't rely on an adjacent to hedge, show, slide. We've got to come from this crease whether that dodge needs to be slid to initially when he's still above the goal, if he needs to be slid to when the ball's at the goal on extended. Or if he continues to dodge to X, you know, we might need to sleep to come to the crease even if he's behind the goal. And so it's, can we read and react quickly on the fly? Exactly to your point.

Evolutionary change because the environment, the ecology has changed with what the offense is throwing at us. So true. And I think sometimes the principle that people use. of you must have an outlet in front of the ball and behind the ball becomes a defensive advantage. It doesn't mean that you want outlets because at times you absolutely need them. But without a question.

When having outlets supersedes creating advantages, it takes away advantages because all of a sudden people are crowding the ball in different ways. And it's easier to slide and rotate and hedge and drop in and finding that balance for an offensive coordinator of like, when do we really need an outlet? And when do we, you know, maybe a next guy.

you know, is hanging his guy up behind the net early in the dodge because we don't want any ball side help. And I think that that's kind of an interesting concept. It's transforming us. Literally, as we prepare for our opponents, are they giving us an adjacent or are they not giving us adjacent? It impacts how we start the week of preparation for that opponent. Right.

Also the evolution of not as many clear throughs. In other words, clearing through was the way to create space. And clearing through you're essentially clearing right into the heart of the defense. And it's so much easier for you to slide off that clear through when they're going right into the crease, which is one of the reasons why either not having an adjacent or having a drift. It makes it so difficult. And I think that, you know, clear throughs can be fine.

But it's, there's been a sort of evolution in that too, where it used to just be clear through and then it became like a shallow clear through where you go behind. And then now everything is like a mirror, mirror, mirror. And now all of a sudden people are clearing through less because it is actually kind of an anchor for the defense.

to be able to just slide out of the crease and, I mean, slide, you know, be initially hot, like I'm going to go from the crease and then to be able to audible to just slide off the clear through, which is a near man and pick that guy up because he's running right into the coverage anyways.

You're right. I mean, the clear through was, you know, you and I are in high school. It's two triangles. You know, is it the midfield is running a triangle? The attack is running a triangle. I found myself about five years ago realizing that the foundation of my teaching my defense, say for a top dodge, and who's the second slide? We had positioned our...

other high midfielder who was not being dodged. Imagine there's two middies up top dodging and one's dodging, one's off ball. That off ball high defender, we've given him a lot of responsibility, almost like a safety in football. He's reading, he's communicating. It was premised on the triangle motion offense. And about five years ago, I'm like, Lars, you have to stop sort of teaching day one of your defense based on this because no one's running this anymore.

Exactly. And half the time, you know, that player is ending up in actions. Yes. You either have to guard or ignore, but either way, those actions are designed to try to create an advantage out of it. So if that all of a sudden other MIDI that you want to drop in and split is involved in some kind of a two-man action.

whether they're sealing down if you're zoning it up or whether they're, you know, cutting off of a pick or setting a pick. It ties up your players in an action or not because you can opt to. ignore it and zone it up, but then you're going to be giving something up. Either way, you have to eventually guard that action. And there's plenty of examples.

In other sports, you know, I love reading about other successful coaches such as Nick Saban. And, you know, to recognize that, you know, every five years or so, he's had to redefine. the size of their linebackers or how many dbs they have in a game or you know what i gotta hire lane kiffin because we got to stop trying to go double tight end and smash the ball we got to be more open-minded and so the offense changes and so then the next year or two

His linebackers are getting skinnier, you know, and they're running more nickel and dime packages. Same thing here. Like we just have to adjust as a defense because you're right. The clear through is not dead.

But it's antiquated because now, oh, maybe you want to do a shallow cut. You want to drift. Hey, go set a pick on the ball. You got all these other choices if someone's dodging towards you. One of the ones that I've been really interested in. is the actual opposite of clearing through or drifting and it's actually bringing somebody kind of like to the ball outside the ball that i call to man where

And you see in PLL lacrosse, you see Zach Currier do this all the time. But I've seen Cornell do this. I've seen Penn do it for Sam Hanley. Cornell does it a lot. But basically, imagine you're in a... in a you know dodging out of a two midi out top set and you don't you sweep across the top and don't clear that midi through baiting his defender into what would be known as a free double, helping down.

And then you kick it back to that guy. And all of a sudden that maybe who's helping has an impossible approach against a downhill Dodger, either for a reject where they just don't use the gut. They can either use it as a pick or use it to reject. But when you.

watch that courier play he's like he's just brilliant at sort of dodging into a gap drawing an adjacent defender without a clear through and kicking it out to him it's sort of a dodging kick concept yeah it's like a wall pass on man up where you get it in and get it out and get the defense to kind of collapse to you and then all of a sudden they're in trouble and it's a version of two-man game and it's a version of creating space

But you're kind of creating space by baiting somebody to collapse on you so that you can kick it out and give them an impossible approach. Or you fake it. to them and attack that gap. And to be able to attack that gap means that all of a sudden you're getting the benefits of two-man game, meaning one of the biggest benefits of two-man game is the term I call addition by subtraction, where

If you're dodging one-on-one, there's five defenders in there. You slide one, there's four guarding five. In a two-man game, there's four defenders in there. If you slide, there's three guarding four. When you are in any two man situation, you get the benefits of addition by subtraction, including this sort of getting outside the ball, which which is kind of blasphemy because getting outside the ball, you know, like I used to laugh and call it a referee cut.

which you didn't want. But now looking at the advantages, I'm seeing it happen. And I'm seeing people being able to create really good advantages off of this gap to man. Have you thought about this at all? Or can you picture what I'm talking about?

I absolutely can picture it. And first of all, isn't it wonderful when something so counterintuitive, you know, can all of a sudden become weapon can become, because what defense would anticipate this and expect it? Or if you. We are expecting it. I got to practice it and drill it, you know, all week because we don't normally have to practice and drill that all week. That's not a normal preparation for an opponent, an offensive opponent, me speaking as a defensive coordinator.

I do see an advantage of it because I happened to 25 years ago is the assistant at Dartmouth. We would scrimmage UMass. And then from then on, as I was an assistant coach at Penn State. UMass and Penn State were in the same conference. Then I became the head coach of Stony Brook. We played UMass. Then I became the head coach of Brown. We played UMass. Greg Cannella, in some years, was doing this type of cut. We called it an overcut.

And it was the only team that would do it. And it was something that made us pause. Like, okay, what are they doing? Why would they do this? Is that a mistake? The first time, first two times you see it, that's a mistake. Okay, it's not a mistake. It's kind of like an overlap. It's kind of like a flip, but instead of on the run, you're just kind of standing out there and receiving a short pass the way that would work.

And it's just like some really athletic midfielder, someone a little bit more speed than maybe his other teammates who can just rock it. Just launch out of that positioning, especially if his man has hedged towards the Dodger, has contacted the Dodger. So, yeah, there's something there, Jamie. Absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of cool.

Um, so with all of these more, with more coaches kind of going to more free flowing principles based offenses with a lot more actions, you know, as pairs has. has gotten into two-man side, three-man side, three behind, all these three-man looks. How are you creating those looks for yourself? Because obviously, back to the initial question, how have you evolved as a coach as the offenses have evolved? How do you give yourselves these looks so that your players have things?

actually to read and decisions to be made as you're practicing them, you know, even if it's defense against defense. Sure. So from a defensive perspective. One of the things I really like to do is, you know, and influenced by you, the constraint light approach with the 4v3s. I often like to do three stations at the same time, you know, 14, 15 guys at a station. And so you get about five minutes of this type of 4v3.

And one could be on a wing pick, you know, could be a top dodge, could be a hung, was a guy by himself behind the goal with three guys trying to get open in the crease. Creating four versus threes for our defense going against real offensive players in the station work that we do.

so that we can pick apart smaller parts of the team defense and the defense we're going to have to build up there. And so I think I find that really helpful where the offense does have the advantage and they're going to have a lot of success. And then as the practice goes later on, now we're going to do it in a 4v4 and 5v5 settings with an emphasis on, you know, again, influenced by you. Like, okay, this is what I want the first action or two to be. And then from there, then freelance.

The real answer, just to answer your question, is, again, I'm really starting to just arm our defense instead of having a bunch of different calls, instead of having an answer to everything. You know, you feel good about yourself as a defensive coach if you've come up with all these schemes and drawings and zones. You've got an answer to everything. Fellas, I'm going to arm you with a couple weapons in it. You know, are we sliding from the crease?

Or did they give us an adjacent? We've got an adjacent opportunity here. It's not quite that simple, Jamie, but adapting to something.

that's, you know, that we actually have to need to because of what offenses are doing. And so doing it on the 4v3s, 4v4s type settings has really been beneficial for us. One of the things that's been a trademark, I think, of your defense has been your ability to double team in different ways, maybe even more so than just pure sliding. Obviously, you slide when you have to slide, but if you have to slide a lot, you're probably in trouble.

But I see you guys jumping picks, hiding to middies that are rolling back and doubling them or attackmen that are kind of posting up. Obviously, your team becomes armed with that. How much of an emphasis do you put on that? How do you do that?

Yeah, that starts with the pre-practice, those 15 minutes of putting guys in a 4v4 or 5v5 setting. And again, now it's just pre-practice, so it's just defenseman versus defenseman. Nobody's seeing anybody. We're just jogging through things. But let's say we put the offense or the fake offense in a 5 and a die.

Two just below the GLE, one in the crease, and then two high posts. All right, fellas, let's slide crease. Let's slide cross crease. Make these calls quickly. All right, Dodgers coming from back left. Dodgers coming back right. Put the ball top center, or the top left, except.

creating rotations in the pre-practice saying we're going to slide we're going to rotate we're going to fly around now the game plan may not be to slide a lot you not like sliding a lot but we practice sliding a lot so when somebody you know over the years larkin kemp when i was a brown and jared connor since when someone who is a little bit more aggressive than others who is going to see that your neck and just go even though he's breaking what you know

what this package was, but he saw an opportunity to double, to be disruptive. The rest of us, we've done so many rotations in the pre-practice, and we have a couple easy calls to make there, that we've practiced that a ton. When I was around for much of my time there, you know, in the pre-practice, we had one goal or one imaginary goal. And then we would all stand around. It might be 5v5 or 6v6, talking, walking.

And then one day I was like, what if I made three imaginary goals? And I had all five guy, I had five guys at each imaginary goal against imaginary people. Okay, imagine they're in a five and a die situation. 2-1-2. Now, top left is dodging. Let's slide from the crease. Let's fill from here. Let's rotate this around. And it just, I guess...

Best way to answer it is we just practice rotating a ton, even if the game plan is not to slide in, because it allows us to then, when we do slide, or if we're, again, there's two things to slide, slide to support or slide to disrupt. And we talk about that a lot. you know, to, to help or we slide into daub to double. And so we just go through those rotations and motions a lot. And, and I think it's in that 15 minute pre-practice time before we really warm up and get going.

And then how much do you guys look to double when it's live? You know, because part of it is. Understanding the rotations. And part of it is that example where Jared Connor saw somebody's neck and he was able to just kind of go. And how do you reward that or talk about that or encourage that? Yeah, well, I mean, we've named it the four-yard rule. It's probably stretched more to six or seven. If you're within four yards of the ball and you see an opportunity to make a play, go for it.

forget that it's not the slide package or you're not supposed to be the hot guy or whatever. Now, again, Jared Connors would stretch that to six or seven yards. He was so athletic and long. He could make that play. And so it's just reinforcing on the film clips the next day, like fellas, I see it.

Even if the offense scores a goal because they make two slick passes. But recognizing, hey, we got to be ready because one of our teammates is ready to go. So it's essentially telling the defensive coordinators listening to this podcast, are you okay with...

giving the men the freedom to make those choices. I mean, if we have offenses who are playing with more freedom, you know, free-flowing principle, we got to be defensive. I think defensively, that's how we counter it and forget so much structure. So we're just...

So we're willing to make our defensemen be the leaders on the field and take ownership of it. And if the offense can make two or three slick passes or one incredible pass, you know, on a type of a backside dog or backside whatever, then.

Good for them. But yeah, we want to hunt. How important is the communication on that double team? It's important, but I will admit, Jared Connors, Larkin Kemp, Ben Ware, sometimes they don't say anything. They just... They see an opportunity and they're going. And the wrestler's got to see it. And so we just talk about it. We practice it. We look at that. And, again, the defense coordinator is listening to the podcast. You can't sit there like, whoa, what are you doing? You know?

Doesn't work to do it. You got to live with counter. It's counterintuitive for, for guys to do it. A lot of guys, they just don't, they don't, they don't want to attack. And I think that like, you don't want them to attack. stupidly either but they almost have to be able to make some mistakes particularly in practice to be able to get a feel for how to leave yeah you gotta kind of know when an attackman is dodging from behind there's gonna come a time where he loses sight of you

You don't even have to necessarily see his neck, but at a certain point in time, he just can't see from his peripheral vision where you are. And sometimes if you don't leave, you can't necessarily wait from the distance you're at for him to turn.

You almost have to like a little bit early. You know what I mean? Exactly. I mean, if offenses can be unpredictable, can we be unpredictable too as a defense? Yeah. You know, and a defensive coordinator, the offensive coordinator is watching game film, getting ready for our defense. They're going to see patterns, you know.

You know, there's something there. There's a structure there. But I want them to go like, oh, why did he slide there? You know what? Maybe he has free license. Or maybe that was a call. Or maybe, at least put some question marks there. Right, for sure. Encouraging your players to practice by rewarding double teams. A lot of times, though, I really do want the communication, although I don't disagree with you that like instinctively, if you just make a play, it's a great play.

It doesn't mean it wouldn't, it couldn't be more effective if you told the guy on the ball that you're all of a sudden to stay left, stay left, stay left. If you were going to try to double. Oh, that happens. I thought you're more like, you know, if, if Larkin Kemp was about to take off, is he telling the guy behind him? Yeah, definitely. You're right. I'm glad you clarified that. Yeah, definitely telling the guy, turn him, turn him. Yeah, you want to let that guy know.

Especially in two-man game, if you want to double the pick, because it won't be a double really if you don't tell that guy that you're somehow stay right, stay right, stay left, turn him, whatever it is. Exactly. I totally agree. And I think that to reward players in practice, sometimes I'll have a constraint that'll say it's a two-point play for a double team, but it doesn't count if you don't communicate. Because I really need that on-ball communication just because, you know, you...

You might be turning a guy, but you might not really be turning him the same way you would if you knew somebody was there. So if a guy's in a right-on-right V-hold. And all of a sudden, Larkin Camp is sliding. And he's like, stay left, stay left, stay left. You know you're going to really stay on that thing.

And without that communication, a lot of times you open yourself up for giving up offense because you don't get the ball pressure you need to stop them from making the pass out of it. Exactly. For us, a lot of it is just turn them. turn them, hook them, keep them going, whatever, yeah. Or left or right, you're right. Yeah, we've had, essentially, it bites us sometimes. You know, we lost to Syracuse in a wild-scoring game, 18-17.

That's a team that's slick enough to throw those passes when somebody slides who's not supposed to slide and they find that guy. Totally. It's so good for the off for your offense, though, you know, for for the other side of the ball to be able to apply that pressure and get used to it. And that's kind of the beauty of the constraint slot approach is it's all based on principles of play. And it's based on.

Both sides of the ball. And it's based on creating variability. Because those are really what it's all about. You can't have X's without O's. You're never going to have the same situations exactly the same. So being able to figure out different ways to kind of do it is so important. It's all within the principles of play that, you know, that we all live and die by.

You know, whether it's taking away the middle, whether it's whether it's communication, you know, all of these things are like not really debatable. How you want to dial them up and dial them down as a coach is going to be different. from year to year and probably game to game and even play to play, but the principles of play sort of exist. Exactly.

They're having an offensive coordinator who's not too stuck so that their offense is prepared for our defense in practice in the 4v4 drills and certainly when we go 6v6. Can we be better prepared? And I think that's one of the positives for Virginia over the years is that we have had a lot of assisted goals because our offense is used to seeing aggressive slides in practice.

you know you could then flip that and say okay well then maybe the counter is trying not to slide to virginia if they're used to aggressive slides and they're used to getting doubled at the time that's inconvenient for the offense and so they've had to deal with that and so now slides in a game

you know, are easier to manage, let's try not to slide to Virginia. And we've honestly seen that as a counter from a lot of our opponents in my eight and a half years to go into our ninth season here. We've seen it from opponents who probably should be sliding. But sometimes the opponents who don't need to slide, who run it really well, such as Maryland in the Final Four when they held us to six goals, you know, we just, they said we're not sliding. And so...

That was what we thought a lot about in this offseason. Yes. Make sure we win one on one matchups. Yeah, that's a really interesting topic in and of itself. So what are some of the different ways that you you're trying to do that?

It was certainly with the deception, you know, sometimes you have guys, you know, we've got a couple of guys here who can do that, but we don't have a whole team of them. You know, to be honest with you, I've had embarrassment of riches in many years. I've been here in Charleston, Virginia.

We've had two main superpowers leave with Schellenberger and Cormier, and we've got three really impactful offensive players who are going to miss a spring because of injury. And so we're probably more a bit normal in terms of the amount of talent when I look at the rest of the country. And so we're going to have to be more creative. And so when you're talking about the clear through, we're talking a lot about that. Okay, so what are the Jasons doing? Are we necessarily always picking the ball?

Like most teams are in the country and most defenses are prepared for. Is there other things that are creative? You talking about the overcut, I'm going to take that to the office later today. Hey, here's another idea. And so we've got to prove that we can make defenses. start hedging, if not completely sliding. And so whether we have the individual who can do it, what the angle that they're doing from the side of the part of the field, or is it off ball exchanges? Is it.

on-ball play with the drifting, with those little, you know, we call them, whether it's a backside, you know, bee sting pick, you know, a front pick, a side pick, mirror, whatever it is, we've got to create that. Yeah, the mirror, I did a reel on that recently that a mirror is a great action, but I feel like I would imagine you as a defensive coordinator, you know, like it if a team's just going to mirror every time. It makes it pretty easy for you to.

know exactly you know you can kind of hedge it and and probably get back to your own guy and when you can it's pretty obvious rotation to get to that guy um notre dame does a great job of kind of drifting their guy you know um from the crease to the backside floating them you know typically in the old days it was always floating out top they float them down low a lot and when you get another backside guy to make a cut

that has to be guarded, you know, not on the same plane. All of a sudden, you know, you're left there hedging and helping out of the crease and you're not guarding anybody and someone's standing, you know, Notre Dame sitting there on the backside pipe for a one-timer. Just the whole deception and non-predictability of your offense in everything you do, mixing up where your mirror guy is going so that sometimes he's floating out the back high. Maybe he's floating out the back low. Maybe he's...

Maybe the crease is drifting in front of the ball itself and just becoming the front side of Jason just as much as he might mirror and fill in behind the ball. Yeah, you're right. That type of action. Again, it was UMass one time. I was at Penn State, and they're in their invert offense. We're in our invert defense. And the Dodgers behind the goal, and they had a man cut to within five yards of the Dodger in front of him.

Ball side. Dodge side. Decreased guy kind of drifted right in front of it. Yeah. And it was like, he got in the Dodgers way, but we weren't ready to cover that. Like, why would you go there? And they just threw him this quick little pass, and then someone had to slide a long way to get to him.

It just screwed us up. It was different. It was like counterintuitive. Why would you do that? Our defense is predicated on you not doing that, not bringing a guy into the way of the Dodger, you know? And so, but yeah, I love what you're talking about. Just free fall. Give him.

Give them some basic principles. And what you're talking about with that Notre Dame, that one's less free throw. That's the more scripted. But that is a deadly cut, especially when they have a really talented crease guy. It's a good look. But you can create more variability where you're... you're a crease guy you know sometimes there is no crease

Sometimes you have a crease guy who's going to mirror. Sometimes you have a crease guy who's going to float out low. Sometimes you're going to have a crease guy who's going to float out high. Maybe you have a crease guy that's going to drift in front of the ball. All of a sudden, that variability is what makes it.

much, much harder for the defense. And that's kind of what principles-based offense is all about. Right. And offensive coaches listening, you can have your preferences, but tell your offense, okay, all right, a majority of the time, or 50% of the time.

I want that crease guy staying in the high crease. But don't tell him all the time. Don't make it easy on me as a defensive coach. Make me watch that film go, man, a lot of times he stays there, but then sometimes he does back out to the back pipe or sometimes he does. Yeah, I don't know. So true. And, you know, you said it, the more the more scripted the offense is, the easier it is for you to be scripted on defense and the more.

unpredictable it is the harder it is and then you just got to fall back on principles and honestly you pretty much got to be able to really play the ball well because yeah i mean you know you're the innovator You were the first one to do this from my vantage point, having played against you and coached against you. There was a lot of games I was doing. I was pretty active. I think about the football coach on the sideline who's...

You know, because they can reset the pieces every five seconds, right? And then he's calling out, oh, they went in motion, blah, blah, blah. Coach is calling out, you know, in lacrosse, you know, 20 years ago. I could do a lot of that. Oh, they're in the 2-2 with the, you know, short six here. I know what they're going to do.

you know, I'm starting to play against you. I'm coaching against you. And I'm like, I'm going to enjoy a game. I got a really good vantage point here. You know, I'm about 30 yards from most of the action. I'm just, I'm going to enjoy the day.

Because there's not much I'm going to, I can't do a lot of puppeteering today. You know, I've tried to best, my best job of the week was preparing my men to be the decision makers because I can't help you today, fellas. It's up to you. So let's talk a little two-man game.

And talk about, from a defensive perspective, what are the picking actions on ball that are easy for you to guard and what are the hardest ones to guard? And I don't even know if that's too hard or too vague.

the traditional flank when they come in from the side you know flank like an army maneuver you know when you can see it and uh you know even the on ball guy can can see it out of the peripheral vision um those are going to be the you know typically the easiest type of motions um you know a high wing where it's a little less dangerous if we screw it up for a shot to go in um if it's against two

Guys who played team defense, not somebody stuck on defense like a faceoff guy or an offensive midfielder. Those are the ones that are going to be the easiest to defend. The hardest ones are going to be the ones where it's a pick-re-pick.

If it's done where the vision is really tricky, like the cutter, maybe the off-ball offensive player looked like he was cutting into the crease or looked like he was doing something else, and all of a sudden, bam, he goes flying out there. And you're like, whoa, where did that happen? Where did that come from?

But yeah, I'm, you know, the, as I referred to earlier, the beast thing, when someone picks with their butt or backside. Like on ball, you like that? Yeah, I like it because of the opportunity and I am. If I'm sending a pick with my backside, with my butt, I don't see the Dodger coming. I see him going. And now it can slip. And I've got better vision there. And as a defense.

We're just not used to that type of action. You know, it's not that different, but it's like, whoa, why is he turned around the other way? And how do I position? It can throw us our positioning off a little bit. I want to chat about that. I think that's an interesting topic.

I've been seeing people talk about it. Personally, I can't see the advantage in setting on-ball picks. with your back, with the exception of if you've got like Connor Schellenberger and you're having him set a pick and you don't want him to get a concussion. I think there's something there too. There is something there for that. But otherwise, though, it doesn't allow you to adjust. And I don't think it gives you a really big advantage.

in getting open any differently because, you know, look at the Canadians. Why don't they do it in box? They do it off ball a lot because I think off ball, when you set a pick with your, with your butt. Yeah. It's very different because now like your own man doesn't even recognize you're setting a pick and you can kind of set a moving pick back right into somebody and get them open. But I feel like on ball, it's so important for.

the picker to be able to have perfect positioning and adjustments, particularly if they're going under. because they have to be able to adjust their pick and make the defender go farther under. If you turn your back, you're likely to just miss. I'm not sure I really think you're going to get open any better.

based on the actual coverages that you'll kind of see. I mean, it happens, but I've been thinking about it and looking at it and trying to figure out, you know, always. But I but I feel like off ball. Those beasting type of picks, I think, are deadly. I think on ball, the most value is when you just, you know, really on like a long sweeping run from behind and you just don't really feel like getting a concussion for your best player.

What do you think about that, though? I appreciate what you're saying. No, you're right. The bee sting, an effective bee sting is a later developing pick because I've got to, you know, and the later I set that pick, the more risk of a me.

getting a moving pick. I get that. But it's got to be a later developing pick because you're right. The more time, the earlier I said it, the more time the defense has to get around it and adjust with it. And it doesn't make much impact. The other part of I like about the beasting is when contact is made.

I feel like I am now moving forward. Like the contact is pushing me. The guy's hitting me from the backside. It's now propelling me moving forward. So one, I've got vision, but two, I'm probably not falling down.

I mean, I think if we could get really good at playing picks defensively, I knock the picker down every time. If I don't care about matchups. Now, if I care about matchups, you know, and there's certain matchups and we're matchup orientated, but some teams aren't. Why not just knock the picker down?

Don't take them out. Don't go for the headhunting. You don't want to be manned down the whole game. But you know, if I'm on ball as a defender, and I see the pick, and I don't act like I see it, but I know it's there, and if I run into him firm enough, to knock him down or at least make him take a couple steps backwards, he's not an outlet.

Or at least get it. It's almost, you know, it's also just getting them covered at the worst. I mean, he's covered like we. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we worry about matchups too much. And I'm like, why don't we just run into people? And then he's covered. Right. And and with the beast thing. That defender can run into that guy. And I just, I feel like you're kind of. I agree with that. But here's what I would say. If we are running our defender into picks, we are not.

punishing the coverage of the over like we should, because we don't want to run people into picks. We want to take them over the pick. And if we can get a defender to be pushing out on us and trying to get over a pick, but if you watch like Ryder Garnsey, he's brilliant at this and Jeff T too. They don't, they don't go shoulder to shoulder on picks.

Right. Outside the pick and bait you to think you're getting over this thing so that the defenders chipped and he has no choice because he's playing one on one defense. And so if we were going to slam into somebody. I totally agree with you back to the safety perspective and probably bouncing into a more open space. But if we're really taking people over picks.

We're not running them into them. Our pickers is positioning themselves so that they're going to chip the guy because he's trying to get over a pick and we're just. basically putting them on our back like Luka Doncic does or all these basketball players when they're going over because they can't give up a three-point shot. And now they're in this trailing position. And I kind of feel like that is the ultimate coverage solution for an over.

And so if we look at the coverage solutions for an over, we definitely want to bring them over. We don't want to run them into the pick anyways. And if it's going to be an under, then we need to be able to adjust our pick and see that, which is going to be harder to do with our back turned.

And if it's a clip, we're just slipping it anyways. And so, therefore, I think that's why from going back to the coverages themselves, why I feel – and that doesn't mean you couldn't set a bee sting with your back if you are – bringing them over, but you're not getting run into anyways if you're doing it right with the ball. And so much of it is on the ball carrier to be able to take that angle or to use hesitation moves to bait the guy over the pick.

You're right. And that's what you've always promoted is making sure that the Dodger doesn't go full speed with these picks. So you're being deceptive and baiting and luring them to go over the pick. You know, with a step in, step away. Yeah, absolutely. One of the keys to that actually, Lars, is, and I did a reel on this on Instagram too, but it's so important, which is make your move before the pick is set.

Don't wait for a pick to be set to make your move. Because if you make your move, you know, again, going back to like Jeff T, he's like, you know, just brilliant at all this stuff. If it picks on its way and you see the angle, you know the angle where essentially that is going to be.

And if you just take off with a move and use any kind of look off at all, deception of any kind to take off and you get a little bit of a step on your eye. Why? Because you get to say go. The race begins when you say go. And then you get him guarding you.

He's no longer thinking about pick defense. He's guarding you. And it makes it much, much more difficult for him to try to even get under or do anything he wants to do because he's guarding you. And you now have some control over being able to take an angle. that would bring them over a pick. Same thing when they're going under. It's so much easier to get under a pick if all of a sudden the pick is just there. You can turn your head. You can see it.

You can switch it. You can guard it. You can get under it. But when somebody makes their move on you, excuse me, when somebody makes their move on you, And you're just guarding them as if they were a one-on-one Dodger. Now you're focused on playing one-on-one defense and it makes it so much more difficult to play pick defense. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Whether it's a pump fake with a pass or a two-step, three-step jab, the opposite direction, pump fake away, jab step away, and then bam, fire through there. Yeah, really good point. Talk to me about the... the shorty hedge off and give a whack while the defender tries to get under. I feel like that coverage tends to give people a really hard time. How much do you guys run that coverage? Yeah, we're big fans of it. And one thing that we've done.

Yeah, just hedge or be offset. We certainly practice it even more with our offensive midfielders. face-off specialists, like day one of practice, you know, every semester. And then throughout the semester, we get our face-off guys and offensive middies saying, okay, if you're trapped on defense and your man is setting picks, they're hoping for a switch. You can't be a switch. You got to be screaming through, through, through.

because we don't want to switch this pick. And this is the motion that we work on. This is our action. I want my off-ball defender, face-off guy, offensive midfielder. Or it could be a true defender if we're trying to keep our matchups. And again, we're matchup orientated in Virginia more so than a lot of other teams. I want to be not necessarily two yards.

dropped off and i'm visioning for you know we're all doing this mentally but like imagine a pick across the sweeping imagine we're sweeping across the middle i don't know if i would necessarily want my

Off-ball defender, two or three yards back towards our own goal. I want him two or three yards wide like a normal hedge. But almost in a – almost – almost up and even because i want to get that whack in there i want to be able to maybe get a chip in and what we've emphasized to our guys is see if you can make it a running chip so that

I don't want to be married, meaning I don't want to be touching the picker as the off-ball defender. I want to be two or three yards away. So now it allows me to run at the Dodger. while also running at my man in case he is just setting a pick and escaping out of the game, because we're talking about a faceoff guy or an offensive middie trapped on defense, or even a normal defender.

Because maybe my guy's going to slip. But it's allowing me to have motion. Nothing drives me nuts, Jamie, that I'm the off-ball defender. I'm talking pick. And the Dodger comes sweeping by, and I step laterally to chip. because I'm going wrong direction. One, a good Dodger might run into me and force me to switch to my momentum. I might get caught up with this guy for a second or two. Meanwhile, where's my man? He could be gone. He could be slipped.

stepped away so we really emphasize that so in other words you don't want to go you don't want to go wide of him as much as like sort of north south to him almost at him i want to go at that guy like almost saying oh jamie You want to dodge? You want to use this pick? Well, you're going to get slashed. Yeah. We're going to have somebody coming right at you.

almost because we don't want to slam into you. I don't want to switch in this case, but we're going to slap your bottom hand and the lower part of your stick. And then our momentum hopefully keeps us going towards wherever our man is. Which makes the Dodger run wider and allows the defender who's going under to be able to.

Exactly. So that's how we really teach it for our offensive meetings and face-off specials. And then some of our short-seeking meetings, especially when they're dealing with a matchup that we want to maintain. Cole Castor, Kate Sostad, John Schroeder to keep that matchup. So what gives that? What gives that the biggest problems, that coverage? Moving picks. Because I'm not hedged below. Because I'm not hedged two or three yards off closer to my goal. Moving picks, I mean.

A moving pick on the ball? Yeah, a moving pick on the ball. If it gets called or not, or if it's a moving pick that's still legal, but he got stopped really quickly. Because what if I'm not in a good protective position as the off-defender? A lot of teams want the off-ball defender.

hedge two yards, three yards wide and two yards low. So in case we do get picked off, I am not really in a great protective position if my on-ball defender gets picked off because of a moving pick or a late developing pick. Oh, I see.

And so that's where it's less, it's less protected there. And so the way that you played is, is almost like a double. That's not a double more like basketball hedge and get back really attacking it and getting back, which is a little different from the normal sort of stack and whack yourself. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Yeah, the way we do it, we're almost pushed further away from the goal like it is basketball where you can't give up the three.

Whereas most lacrosse and most sports, you just pack, you can pack it in and give up that outside shot. So that is, that is a downside. So communication is key through, through, through. You got to be talking that early and often because if that on ball guy gets picked off. It's really hard to help them. Obviously, the concept of AAA ratings and always arrive alone, creating separation.

from your guy will usually give this coverage a hard time, whether it's your coverage because you'll be late on getting out there or the typical stack and whack coverage where they're just – because now all of a sudden they're sort of trailing the play. How about slipping it? I mean, it seems like – It seems like people just stick that pick way too much, and you should just probably slip it a lot more often if you're going to try to bait that midi.

to try to hedge and they're just not guarding anybody when they're in the middle of doing that. The slip is a great counter to it. The problem is, as I was saying, most of the time. The majority of time we're emphasizing this is when it's a faceoff guy who's trapped or an offensive middies are trapped for me. So therefore your slipper on the other team is another faceoff guy or a D middie who's not a great slipper. So that's that. But you're right. If it's a regular offensive player.

that slips a great counter. Yeah. Really interesting. What's your, what's your take on inverse these days? I know, I know. We've got a Division III program, and I have Sidney coming to join us in a couple days, and, you know, he wants to talk. And I'm like, I send him questions. This is what I want to know about you guys. What are you doing to Invert? Do you have a special defense, or are you just playing your base?

Because I definitely over the 30 years of coaching lacrosse here, of coaching college defense, I've had some invert packages. I've had some invert packages I loved. And there's part of me that still wants to... you know, open up the dust off that defensive playbook and bring them out. I just think with a free flowing and emotion and all this, and all it takes is for a savvy offensive coordinator.

to show an invert. We get into an invert package. Then they show something else. We've changed our matchups. So I am in the point of my time now, Jamie, or at least this iteration of offenses, you know, 25 years into the century that.

You know, we are going to stay with the base defensive package for the most part because of things are just constant. They're motion. It's not structured offense. They're not really sitting there too often. So we're just going to, you know, a repertoire of tools, two or three tools we have in this live package and go with that. Which is like sometimes your coma, sometimes a crease, or maybe adjacent. And just try to play defense and try not to get beat. And the biggest thing is really awful.

Yeah, exactly. The biggest thing is the off ball. Are we holding our spots during this dodge? Invert dodge is a more dangerous dodge. Do we have a call where we stay where we are? Hold our spots. Hold. Or are we still following our man and keeping our matchup and going with that motion and all that? And then someone essentially is going to become the hot guy later on.

So essentially, are we going to hold our spots, designate a hot? Now, an invert defense, you would hold your spots, designate a hot, and form a certain shape, a square, a dime, whatever it is. You don't have to get an invert defense where you can still just... Hold your spots. Right. It's not a shape. It's like any other defense. I mean, anytime there's a slide, everyone's kind of zoning it up anyways. Exactly. It's an amoeba. Whatever. You don't know what the heck it's going to be. Or is it...

Are you going to keep your matchups? People are flowing in and out. Someone who eventually is going to become the hot guy because they're going to be closer. We've spent more time developing that, that motion off ball with a Dodger behind. Let's say it's an invert. So we're worried more so than normal about it. Are we, what are we doing with that off ball?

Are we holding our spots? Are we going to keep our matchups and then slide later? A lot of it has to do with how dangerous is the Dodger? How much do we beat on ourself? And then a lot of it's on the offense too. If it's a high, high energy motion offense. If they're just spaghetti, pasta, crisscrossing.

Sometimes you're like, you know, we just got to hold our spots. We're going to lose our matchups. This is just mayhem trying to fight through, you know, weaving our way in and out of these moving traffic cones. And then sometimes it has to do with, you know. Is matchups really important to us against this opponent? Or are they just ridiculous inside crease finishers?

you know, then I don't think we can just hold spots and hope that we're covering everyone, you know, this Canadian or whoever this is inside. Those are the things that we debate a lot as a defense as we get ready for an opponent, as we look at them, and therefore we practice those two things. It's not really an invert defense. It's really sort of thinking of it as, are we going to hold spots?

As this dodge is about to happen, are we going to trust the relationship, the matchup and continue to follow and have a late sliding guy? And you kind of work on, you work on both because. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I know we talked in the past about. you know, this defense where people don't go behind the net as much. We're seeing it more. You're also seeing more.

you know three behind actions you know how do you feel about getting extended on that stuff and how do you feel about going behind and we're not going behind with your shorty at times yeah i'm still a fan of the 2v2 as opposed to the 2v1 at x i really like having a presence back there i think it's You know, it seems easier to pick a guy off, you know, whether you don't care about matchups or you say you don't care about matchups. But I always think there's a matchup or two out there.

you would like to maintain your version of Cole Kastner or Kate Sausted on. And if the opposing defense is playing two versus one, I mean, just... take that elite offensive player to have and go back there and set a pick on a 2v1. It's hard. That's really hard for a guy to get through all that stuff. And now all of a sudden, you know, a really good offensive player has got his hands-free decks on a hung.

You know, or he's pushing a pipe and now a short stick defender's approaching him. I don't know. But I see there's definitely advantages to it. I think 2v1 at X can be an effective defense. If the other teams have a Pat Spencer or Connor Schellenberger or someone elite who's just going to pick you apart with their hands free and just torture you. And so if there's not much of a drop off between their offensive personnel, then sure.

But if there's a big drop-off, I want to try to maintain that matchup back there. So 2v2, I think, does a better job with it. I mean, I think there's no one way or right way. Obviously. The advantage of not going back there is that you're essentially sliding to the elite player with a short and you're still 4-on-4 in front of the net. Whereas if you have to slide to that two on two, now you're three on four in front of the net. So that's probably the biggest plus.

I remember I was the defensive coordinator for the late, great Dave Huntley with the Atlanta Blaze, and we were playing at Long Island and playing against Rob Pinnell. It was the first time I tried that in 2017. I was like, well, I'd much rather have Rob Pinnell have to throw it behind the net to a middie because he probably doesn't want to. He'd rather feed it. And I'd rather have nobody open for him to feed.

going to have a chance of beating us anyways. I did it the next time against Jordan Wolf, same problem. I mean, Jordan Wolfe, you're just not going to guard Jordan Wolfe in a big little back there. He's going to blow by people. And now we have to slide. And now it's three out and four in front. So it's like, all right, I'm going to consider it a win if I get this elite attackman, Pat Spencer, to have to throw it to a middie behind net. Hung or no hung.

That was that was the thought process behind it. But that makes a lot of sense. And so you and I are actually we're actually talking about two different things because you're talking about a relationship where you don't even think you can win that with your best defender on them. And I get that. We're going to double them.

might as well get him to throw a a pedestrian type pass to an open midi behind the goal you know that's not that's that's not as scary if you have to rotate to it fine but a lot of times actually won't, we'll be able to just play that guy with the, with the midi that's there. Exactly. Whereas for me, I was saying, if I do have a relationship with Cole Kastner, Kate Sawstad, John Schroeder, who can win that matchup, I don't want to lose that matchup. So yeah, that's a good point.

So if it's a, if it's a matchup, you're like, we're going to lose this matchup anyways. Might as well just play two versus one. You're right. And lead X open. Yeah. And I also think that it's, you know, it's just a different look. I mean, a lot of, a lot of middies are just, they're actually much better beating you with more space.

Right. They just don't go back that much in practice. Yeah, you're right. And if you blade them deeper and they dodge you from deeper, they can use their speed and all their heads and rollbacks. But when it comes down to. actually just packing it in and them having to get a good shot on the island against you know a beast you know shorty and some of your shorties actually might be better at guarding a guy in a hang-up than they are at guarding a guy you know like uh like our boy uh

Yanni, you know, he was pretty tough near the net, you know. What was that kid's name? The brown kid that you're a defenseman? Yazo. Yazo. Yazo. Yazo Scapparetto. Yeah. Yeah, like a guy like Yazo. He's so strong and tough that he would be a pretty tough guy for many to be able to get a great shot on with everybody crowding him. It's just a look. It's happening a lot. I was curious where you're, you know.

You're evolving and thinking about things in different ways. And it's always based on what you're going against, right? It's funny you mention Rob Pinnell because my iteration was about five years earlier when he was an undergraduate at Cornell, and we were struggling to defend him. I remember postgame, we were fortunate to beat Cornell. I think in 2010, maybe. And just before we started shaking hands, I saw the young man who guarded him was almost in tears, you know, and I mean.

I won't say his name, but what's wrong? He's like, oh, you know, he had like four goals and three assists. I'm like, yeah, but it's Rob Pinnell and we won the game. I'm like, it's good. He's average. I know. But so against him, we were sliding adjacent into his face. When he was behind the goal or GLE-ish, we were like, look, any decent lacrosse player can throw the ball forward to an open guy. Let's make Rob Pinnell be it. you know like

That's the easy look. Make the easy look. Make the easy lacrosse player instead of just like off the charlies. Through the defense, into the high crease, low crease, bagpipe, all that crazy stuff that he can do. Yeah, interesting. Hey, what's your take on...

On defensemen, I know we talked about this in the past too, but I'm curious about your updates on this and just their ability to use their sticks for ball pressure, for checking. maybe to apply pressure, maybe to hunt, but oftentimes from a perspective of recovery and their just ability to do that. Yeah, I know our conversations have influenced me to recognize, is this Dodger a power Dodger or is this a feeding? Is this sort of a quarterback? If this guy's more of a quarterback.

you know looking through i want to be stick out i want to be six foot use the whole length of i can take with pork checks scraping that bottom hand all that stuff if if this is a uh this guy's a pretty good feeder but more of a power dodger

You know, if Dylan Malloy is approaching me, who could have had a lot of assists, don't get me wrong, but I'm going to be more of an across check hold here. I'm going to be more prepared to, you know, to forget trying to like influence this guy, you know, and get on his hands early.

you know, I'm going to get more in a bent knee position and be more powerful here to build on that. I've become more open-minded, be a fist hold when a righty dodger comes around the right side against a righty defenseman. I'm a big V-hold fan. I still prefer the V-hold. But because of conversations with you and looking at things, I'm okay with that fist hold. Now, the key with the fist hold, again, righty-dodger versus righty-defensive on the right side of the hill.

opposite side of the world there on the left side versus a lefty defender. Your butt's got to be facing toward that midline. You know, the V-hold's great because you can be behind a guy. You can be trailing a guy. You could have missed, but you've got to rely on that V-hold. If I'm in good position, let's get that butt facing towards that midline with a fist hold.

I'll tell you one thing that was really cool down at the convention this year. I heard this thing called a chicken wing for a defense. by Matt Dunn. I don't know if he invented it, but in my world, he did. And I just hadn't heard about that. And it reminded me of some of the younger elite defensemen who are doing that type of maneuver, you know, when they're in a fist hold.

And but they start fist hold starts failing them instead of going for a big trail check or whatever to continue to shuffle past their fist hold. You know, if my left hand would be my bottom end of the stick, if that fails and I'm just shuffling to my left and trying to throw up my elbow and trying to guide this guy a little bit away. It's not a very strong position by any means, but.

You know, so that's given me a little bit. Yeah, but I think it's interesting too. And I see like Jack Rowlett do this with just being able to sort of slide your left hand forward so that, I mean, honestly, if you have your hips facing. the end line and your butt to the midline, you're giving up a lot on the inside roll and it would be so much more ideal.

which is why V-holds allow you to kind of play both sides of them, that to be able to either use your, you know, by having your left hand, it's almost like your body is below your left hand. to the degree that you're able to kind of steer him. And that's where that chicken wing comes in with your left elbow to be able to essentially take away a little bit of top side with your cross check and your arm while trying to keep... your body.

somewhere near the underneath. So you're not just giving up a, you know, it's just too easy for a guy to slam you and spin. And all of a sudden, if your hips are too far above him, you're just giving up to eat too quick of an inside roll. Exactly. Like a little bit of a couple of steps on an inside roll we can all deal with.

And I also think that, you know, you can't really be one or the other. I mean, you could be in a particular situation, but the ability to go from a cross check hold to a V hold is so critical. Because if they if they are going to get past your bottom hand, it's not the biggest problem when you can bring your V held over. And so if you can kind of initiate your position.

And if you're fine, you're fine. But but if all of a sudden they're like, you know, has you or they're getting past your left hand, your bottom hand there right on right to be able to transition into a behold. And also the transition of like when they roll back on you.

And now you can't keep your stick there. You're going to give up the inside roll and you got to bring your stick back. Not talking about trying to like windshield wipers it, but, but you can't keep your stick in your V hold when they roll back on you and take a couple of steps. And then when they roll right back to you, that's where you got to go.

back to that cross check hold and that windshield wipe right back you know i'm saying as far as like that transition from cross check hold to v hold back to cross check hold and maybe back to v hold or maybe not But but I kind of feel like it's just really important for for players to be able to have all of that in their bag and to be able to practice that. Sure, sure. You know, for me, that V hold.

I want my guy even with him, if not trailing him. As soon as you start using a V-hold when your butt is starting to face the sideline, you know, or the sideline midline, the inside roll is too easy. Whereas if I'm fist-hold with my butt facing... sideline, midline, sideline. You know, now what's interesting with that chicken wing is if it's not strong, but I am helping myself take away potentially a topside beat.

If I can get him to roll, I've got my whole stick there. Yeah. A wrap, a meat hook or whatever. So I'm intrigued by that. So that was something new I've learned. So our first couple of practices we've. That's right now with that.

Yeah, and teaching it to the defensemen. So, you know, give credit to Matt Dunn or whoever he stole it from. Yeah, love it. Well, T, so fired up to watch you guys play. A new iteration of the Cavaliers and very appreciative of you coming on this podcast. It's been a blast talking. talking lacrosse in this through an ecological lens and trying to focus on the principles of play and how we teach them. And it's great always to talk across with you.

It's always good, Jamie. It's entertaining, enjoying. I enjoy it. And I've got my notes right here. I take some more notes here. And I'm heading to practice in about an hour. And I can start incorporating a few things today and then certainly in next practice. man good luck in 2025.