¶ Intro / Opening
Professors FM. Welcome to the Pfeffer on Power podcast. I'm your host. Jeffrey Pfeffer, a professor at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business and author of 16 books on a range of topics, including the topic of my oversubscribed MBA class and this podcast. Power. Every other week, I talk to someone about their path to power and provide you with practical guidance about how to accelerate your career.
Today's guest is Christine Hung. And I wanted Christine to be on the podcast because as an Asian immigrant from Taiwan, I think she... exemplifies many of the problems that immigrants face in negotiating power in the world. Immigrants are often trained and particularly Asian immigrants are trained to not say too much.
to be self-effacing, that the world is just and fair, that job performance is the only thing that matters, et cetera. None of this, of course, is completely true. And the data from the Ascend Foundation, that's spelled A-S-C-E-N-D. suggests that Asian Americans, and particularly Asian American women, face enormous levels of job discrimination. And so Christine has had an amazing career and has really wrestled with issues of power, I think, quite successfully.
That's one of the reasons I wanted her to be on the program, plus the fact she's a former student and a good friend. Welcome to Pfeffron Power, Christine. Thank you so much, Jeff. It's an honor to be here, and I'm excited to share my experiences and my stories. So the first thing I want to ask you is to introduce yourself to the listeners. As I said...
You come from Taiwan, but tell a little about your background and how that background has affected your views on power. Yeah. So I started my career as an analyst at McKinsey in Taipei. and got the opportunity to do machine learning and build predictive models pretty early on without realizing that it was going to be such a transformative technology.
that now affects every aspect of our lives. I moved to the Bay Area in my mid-20s for Stanford GSB, and then subsequently built my career and my family here. I have led large data teams, machine learning teams at a bunch of big technology companies. I was at Apple for five years working on the iTunes team back in the day. Now it's called Apple Music and went on to the New York Times. lead their data science and engineering team.
A few years later, I found my way back to music, went to Spotify pre-IPO to lead a data team working on top company projects for business expansion, and then was recruited to my current company, Flatiron Health. which is a digital health company focusing on leveraging EHR data to generate real-world evidence to support cancer research. And it's an independent subsidiary of Roche.
On the personal front, I have three young kids, all under the age of eight. So I am a working mom and I live in New York City. And Jeff, in terms of the impact that your class and your books and your podcast had on me, it's huge. And I would say this is extremely helpful to me. as a woman, as a minority, as a foreigner in this country, to learn about the nature of power and how it affects companies.
and individuals, and most importantly, what I need to do accordingly to achieve my goals and be successful. And your point about being an immigrant, right, I would say from the get-go, it was harder for me because English is not my first language. And even though I worked at McKinsey before going to the GSB, the working culture is very different in Asia versus here in the U.S.
I also have a very traditional East Asian upbringing. I was taught at a very young age to be modest, to not rock the boat, just keep my head down and work hard and good things will happen. And obviously working hard is important, but it's very clear that it's not enough. And Jeff, it was in your class with all the amazing speakers that you invited that I started to realize that I wasn't going to go very far in this country if I am just waiting for people to recognize me.
and give me the right opportunities. I have to, first of all, get out of my own way. Put aside all the doubts, the concerns in my head, the imposter syndrome, and just go for it, which is your first rule of power. And I remember when you came to my office after you had gone to work at Apple, and you, of course, had this wonderful problem that you were facing in which one of your peers...
wanted to have you work for him rather than for your direct boss. And we had a lovely and interesting discussion about that. Why don't you tell that story and what you learned from that experience? Yes, yes, I would love to. So right after the GSB, I joined Apple in Cupertino. And for the first six months, people referred to me as the Stanford girl.
because I had interned at Apple the year before, and that's what was stuck in people's head, right? The Asian girl from Stanford. I don't think anyone meant anything derogatory. I was... 28 years old at the time, while all my peers were in their late 30s or early 40s and have been at Apple for at least 10 to 15 years, if not longer. So I definitely stood out as the youngest person.
the team. I started out in finance, but was very clear that I wanted to be on the business side. So I invested a lot of time with the general manager of the iTunes business, which I was supporting. and was promoted to a managerial position a year later to lead and build an analytics team under him. So what happened was one day a peer came to me.
and just said to me outright in public when I was sitting in my cube working away that he thought I was too inexperienced to be a manager and I should be reporting to him instead. Which, of course, would give him the opportunity to take credit and advantage of the good work you were doing. So it's a smart move on his part. Yes, definitely kudos to him. And at that point, Jeff, I like...
At the moment, I did not know what to do. I was so shocked that someone would actually say this to me, especially in public. And honestly, what went through my head initially was that... Maybe he was right. I'm so much younger than all my peers. I'm just one year out of business school. This is my first job in corporate America. And maybe this guy can help me navigate the politics and all of it.
And I am so glad, Jeff, that I came to you for help immediately because you totally helped me transform my thinking and really reframe the situation. Yes. And I did that. You know, and I tell your story actually in two separate books that I've written. Yes. Because I think the story was amazing because you came to me and talked about the fact that you were the youngest person.
And the only woman, so you had a boss and some peers, only woman, youngest, and obviously the least time at Apple. And I said to you, you know, that's three ways to describe yourself. But there are three other ways you might describe yourself as well.
that you were the only person in this group who had received a degree from a leading business school. You were, because of your experience at McKinsey, and then your work at Stanford, the most analytically skilled, and you had run the project that had made...
the most economic impact in this group. And so I said, Christine, you have a choice of six adjectives. You can either yourself as the youngest or the most analytically skilled. And I think that reframing how you saw yourself really had a huge effect. And it really goes to what you said about rule one, to get out of your own way, that you can carry into situations descriptions of yourself to disempower you, or you can carry into situations descriptions of yourself that empower you.
¶ So instead of waiting to see what this person was going to do, at your encouragement, Jeff, I went to my boss, or our common boss, and said, "Hey, this just happened; it was out of the blue, but here's why I think I should continue to lead this department." My boss was very receptive, and the whole shenanigan just went away. What you did for me there, Jeff, is remind me of the value that I was bringing to the table as a leader and really pushed me to defend what I have built and what I deserve. [09:23] And with that, Jeff, I am forever grateful. And every time I run into situations like this-[09:42]I always ask myself, "What would Jeff advise me to do?" And the answer is always very obvious.
Yes, absolutely. So instead of waiting to see what this person was going to do, at your encouragement, Jeff, I went to my boss or our common boss and say, hey. This just happened. It was out of the blue. But here's why I think I should continue to report to you and lead this department. My boss was very receptive. The whole shenanigan just went away. And what you did for me there, Jeff, is to remind me.
of the value that I was bringing to the table as a leader and really pushed me to defend what I have built and what I deserve versus honestly giving in to... An older white man who told me that I was inexperienced and needed to take a step down in my role. And with that, Jeff, I am forever grateful. And every time I run into situations like this, and just trust me.
It still happens to me now in my early 40s, literally being told by older men that I was too young. I did not have experience to do my job. And when that happens, I always ask myself, would Jeff advise me to do? And the answer is always very obvious. Thank you for that. I'm glad that I'm still in your head, I guess, at any event. Yes.
Then you went on, in part because of somebody that you met through the class, to work for the New York Times. And there's an important lesson from your experience at the New York Times, which is that things change. oftentimes not because of anything you've done, but through random events. And I tell all of my students that you always need to spend a certain amount of time.
creating options for yourself. So if things go badly, you have an exit route and you have an exit path. And I think the New York Times really illustrates how things can turn against you. Not because of anything you've done, but because of random events. So why don't you tell the New York Times story?
Yes, I would love to. So my first 18 months at the New York Times was amazing. I was at the top of the world working at one of the most iconic news organizations in the world and being able to spend time. with editors in the newsroom, building the first internal analytics platform to democratize data and change the culture there. And everything seems to be going really well, at least for me. But that was also the period when the New York Times was really struggling. And this was...
10 years ago, they're actually doing relatively well now. So their advertising revenue plummeted while their subscriptions revenue was not growing fast enough. And Mark Thompson, the CEO back then, who joined only a year. before me had to make some drastic changes in order to alter the trajectory of the company. So over time, he started to bring in new people, new leaders from the outside with the goal to turn the business around.
So just when I thought everything was going so well, suddenly in a matter of three months, the chain of command that hired me in the first place all left the company. And this was 2014. At that point, I just got pregnant with my first child. And in my head, I was already worried that people might doubt my ability or my commitment to my job because of the pregnancy, which obviously was...
silly. And I naively thought that I just needed to work harder to win over the new leadership team that was brought in. And Jeff, what I didn't... understand back then, but now I see very clearly is that I was unfortunately collateral damage. I was hired by the previous leadership team, but the CEO wanted change. So to your point, it didn't matter what I accomplished during that period. The fact was...
At that point, what the company needed were new leaders, new faces, and new ways of doing things. And I could not change the fact that I was hired too early. I want to stay on this point for a while because I think it's quite important. When that happened, again, I was beside myself when I realized what was happening because I was like, how could this be? You know, I have done so much. Like, how could this go from me?
being almost like a celebrity in the company who came from Apple and Silicon Valley, who is going to revolutionize the place. and change the culture to suddenly being asked to defend and justify every dollar I spent and every decision I was making, even though the impact I thought was clear.
¶ From my experience, performance is table stakes. You need to do so much more than just performing to be successful. You need to have the right boss. You need to be hired at the right time. You need to make sure that the right people with the right power are aware of your impact. And you need to have allies and sponsors in the organization. You also need to be in the right place at the right time in order to progress.
and very self-explanatory. So going back to your question, Jeff, about... what I have learned, right? This is such an important lesson. And I think a good illustration that is not just about performance, from my experience. Performance is table stakes. You need to do so much more than just performing to be successful.
You need to have the right boss. You need to be hired at the right time. You need to make sure that the right people with the right power are aware of your impact. And you need to have allies and sponsors in the organization. You also need to be at the right place at the right time in order to progress in your career. So going back to reality, Jeff, at that point, all my allies, my sponsors, my protectors left.
And there really was nothing more for me. It was sad, but something that was just out of my control. Yep. And I love how you recognize that it's out of your control. And when things are, in fact, out of your control and things have happened randomly in the environment that have changed your position in the company, then it's time to...
leave. A mistake that many, many, many people make that I see from former students and other people I run into as part of my consulting work, I see people who stay too long because they believe somehow Through their efforts, they're going to turn it around even though they can't. And so people often really stay much longer than they should. And I think it was great that you left. And when you left, you went, I think, to Spotify? Yes.
So tell us about Spotify, because I think Spotify illustrates another important lesson. are two lessons from the class and from my work on power. One is the importance of networking. And second, the importance of making clear to people what you want in your career. Most people are pretty poor mind readers. And so if you don't tell them.
what your career objectives are, and how you're thinking about where you want to go in the organization, they're not going to know. So talk about what you learned from your experience at Spotify. Yes. So in March of 2016... I started a new role at Spotify after I left the New York Times. So this was pre-IPL and I was leading a team of senior data professionals to focus on big bets for Spotify, which was extremely exciting.
working with an amazing team, had great access to senior leadership, and I had a really great first two years. As you know, Jeff, you know, good things don't last forever. So within a three-month period leading to my due date to have my second child. My boss resigned and my boss's bosses resigned. And I found myself again in a precarious position with a huge belly. And just, I don't know, a side note, for whatever reason, every time I got pregnant, crazy things happened to me.
me in my career. But this time I learned my lesson and I was just a little bit smarter than before. So I knew that. The wind was shifting, you know, and I needed to charm my own path, right, versus just letting things happen to me. So I took a pretty thoughtful approach. I really tried to leverage the relationship that I had built with senior leaders.
was able to work on some major initiatives such as the new podcast platform and the first Spotify hardware product before I left the company. Okay. Were you still there when they went public? Yes, Spotify went public when I was on maternity leave. Okay. So I assume you made a lot of money. This is wonderful. Congratulations. And tell me about why you went then to your latest job, Flatiron Health. How did you think about that in the context of power and your prior experiences?
Yeah. So fast forward to 2019, I was recruited to join Flyon Health, which is the company that I'm currently at. I was first hired as VP of Data Insights with the remit to really push Flyon as a company. to be in the forefront of leveraging machine learning to make sense of the messy patient data and really support cancer research.
About three years ago, right around the time I was about to have my third child, like I said, crazy things happen during my pregnancy. So at that point, we went through a leadership transition. So our co-founders at that time. have left the company and promoted Carolyn, who I have been working with closely on the EHR side of the business, to be the CEO.
At that point, I was pretty comfortable in my role as the VP of Data Insights, and I was looking for opportunities to lead a business. And Jeff, as you can imagine, typical me, I immediately came up with all the reasons why this wouldn't work. You know, I never had P&L responsibilities before.
There are probably 10 other people who are more qualified than me. You know, our CEO is probably going to say no. And then I thought to myself, again, what would Jeff say, right? And I actually went back to read your book. So instead of waiting to see what our CEO was going to do and what is going to change.
I went to Carolyn and I told her, I said, hey, I'm really interested in running a business and being a general manager. We are a data company. I am an expert in this space and I would like to have an opportunity. And to my surprise, Carolyn was very supportive. So from there... I was able to first step in for a business leader who was on maternity leave, right? And I got that opportunity to really demonstrate my ability to lead a business line.
And of course, when that business leader decided to leave the company a few months later, I raised my hand and I got the job. So today I am responsible for our most profitable business and I just really enjoy it. I mean, that story really illustrates a point that I made like a zillion times, which is you don't get what you don't ask for.
If you don't ask for promotions and don't talk to people about what your career aspirations are, they're not going to give you very much. And so I think you've learned and really illustrated that important lesson, to ask for things. And to let people know what your aspirations are. Yes. And I would say, I think from my experience, the hardest part, again, it was getting out of my head, right? Because I think we're all just afraid of rejection, right? And I remember...
The night before I was going to go ask Carolyn for this opportunity, I was role-playing with my husband, right? And I was like, oh my God, what is this going to do? And basically what he said to me, Christine, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? The worst thing that's going to happen is that she...
says no and you go back to your current job. And I think that I would say this is something that really took me a long time to learn. I think even at this stage, you know, 20 years out of college. I still need to catch myself when I do that. And that's why I think, you know, having taken your lesson or having your book, your podcast has been a such great reminder of what I will need to do to really achieve my goals.
Well, it's been wonderful talking to you today. And thank you so much for being willing to come on the Pfeffron Power podcast and tell your fabulous stories. Today, we have been talking to the amazing. Christine Hung, who I think has a lot of lessons, not just for Asian Americans or for immigrants, but for anybody.
I think the lessons about networking, the lessons about asking for what you want, and particularly the lessons about getting out of your own way and not thinking of yourself in an unpowerful fashion are important lessons for everybody. Thank you for being... on the podcast, Christine. Thank you so much. This has been the Pfeffer on Power podcast.
where every other week we talk to an accomplished individual about their path to power and the practical lessons for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast. on any of your favorite sources, and buy my most recent book on power, Seven Rules of Power. Connect with me on LinkedIn, Twitter, and JeffreyPfeffer.com. Pfeffer on Power is a production of Stanford University and University FM.