The Drama Triangle - "Victim Role" | Podcast 622

A person can be a victim without feeling like a victim. And a person can feel like a victim when they're actually not. There's a distinction between being a victim and feeling like a victim. We assume that when we're feeling like a victim, we automatically are in a situation of it. But the truth is that unfair treatment can live at literally any stage. You can have a hero complex. You can have a victim complex and you can have a villain complex.

Hey, welcome back to the Personality Hacker Podcast. My name is Joe Mark Witt.

And I'm Antonio Dodge.

So at the time of this recording, it's the holidays.

Cheers.

That's true.

Because if it's the holidays and I gotta put record podcasts, I might as well, you know.

This is like

Throw throw a little back.

R recording a podcast with half your brain tied behind your back? Is that right?

Yeah, I'll probably be more interesting actually.

I'll be down to earth more, quite frankly. Um actually speaking of that the holidays, I wanna start off today with a story about the holidays. Yeah. So it was many years ago, a long time ago, at a long away

In a galaxy far, far away.

I don't know if Baltimore City is considered a galaxy far, far away, but

I think it might be actually.

Um, I'm in Baltimore City and uh it's a few days before Christmas. And my I took I had so okay, my my ex-wife and I had been separated for a few months, several months. And, you know, it's kind of this, are we gonna get back together? Are we gonna be separated for for good? She moves out of the apartment, she moves back in with her parents. And we have two young boys. Yeah. As a couple. My son Gunner's four and my youngest is uh Sawyer is two.

Two. That's right. Well, I think we'd met, so I think the idea of you the two of you getting back together was m becoming a bit a bit of a distant thought.

It was coming to a head, right?

Everything's coming to ahead.

Looks like we're not going to be getting back together.

Right. And you'd been separated for a while.

At least two years. I was available in case I felt like my religious background said that I'm not allowed to move on until she decides to move on. I had to sit and just wait. And she So I figured this is probably, you know, we're we're it's come down the wire, whatever.

That's right.

The point is I have I have my oldest well, both sons actually. I take them to I think like Chick fil A or something for like a just a meal'cause I got them on and there's this tension with me and my uh my ex-wife, but also my in laws, right? So I'm supposed to return my son back to my in law's house while my ex wife is at work and and I'm gonna like basically drop him off.

a handoff.

They're gonna be there for Christmas for a few days, whatever. Anyway, he gets really sick. I think he caught like the stomach, a stomach virus or something. And so he's like ill.

Being cancelled by anybody, which I think is like the best word for it, is it's a jarring experience to go from having a relationship with somebody one day and then the next day you're just like dead to them.

Yeah. It was it was weird, abrupt. I'd never experienced this before. So I'm like and it's like three days before Christmas.

Yeah.

I'm just kinda having a tough time and

Well and you're concerned for your son who's violently ill.

So I I went ahead, I I left graciously. I didn't fight it, I just left. I gave him the key back. So I think that might have been the last time I ever stepped foot in that house. A long time ago. And uh And I drove back. I think I was staying at another friend was out of town or something at the time and'cause I was starting to kind of close up shop but I went back and stayed like an apartment somewhere.

Well and we we'd met and we were kinda together, but kinda not because you were still sort of figuring the situation. And I was living in Vegas so I called.

call you and I'm like, listen, I think I've got an idea. I'm gonna go get a little Christmas tree that I had at the place I was staying. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go in front of the house where my boys are,'cause they'll be having Christmas there, and I'll just sit outside on the sidewalk with my little Christmas tree and just in protest. It just I'm a victim and I'm just gonna sit there in a protest and show it'll d it'll be like this

Christmas tree.

Explain it to them and then that'll like open up, maybe they'll have to invite me in, like the boys will want to see me and they'll be right there and so they'll be obligated to invite me in or whatever. And you're like, That's a terrible idea, Joel. Like really? I think it's a really good idea. But it was a terrible idea. I think that would have been a bad thing to do. But I can just remember how how at the mercy of other people I felt. Like at how

Yeah.

And so today I thought we could talk a little bit about victimhood and When we find ourselves in those places, how do we think about that? How do we deal with something? Because I'm sure maybe you listening right now or watching have had moments in your life where you felt

Yeah.

I think it's really painful for us. So if you could leave in the comments if you're watching or listening, does this has you have you had one of these situations in your life where you felt really cut away, pushed out, you felt like you were on the victim's side of something, like somebody really mistreated you or blocked you?

I mean, at the time of this recording it would have been basically fifteen years ago. Yeah, it's a good thing.

Yeah, it's a long time ago. So so time time heals things a little bit and you don't feel as and I would I would have a much different approach to it now.

I was gonna say you said I I almost wanna cry when I think about it, but is it because you have unprocessed grief from that time period, or is it because you're sad for younger early somet early thirty something Joel, or What do you think it it still kinda chokes you up?

Probably it's probably more connected to my boys because I I was I mean, there's like little moments I've never really shared my story, but there's like little moments throughout my experience after that, like just in a few months after that. Yeah. I mean another victim moment for me was I had scheduled like we didn't have an agreement still with the courts. Like nothing was formalized'cause it was you know this is like in between space. So we're supposed to go and do something formally.

Right, as the divorce is happening.

Yeah. And so I you know we hadn't been together for like almost

I mean we just met basically.

So you and me just met, but I'm talking about my ex wife and I hadn't actually been together for a long time. Right. We'd been living separately, like we just it was the formal paperwork. But I was still invited over to my in law's house. I was still able to come and see my boys. Like I it but it started getting really tense at that moment, like and things started getting cut away.

Certain families feel like they have to side

The circle the wagons.

They circle the wagons. That's right. And so when it was like very clear that like she was not going to be I mean, she she was not going to reconcile.

She made her decision basically. That's right. And so I was like, Okay. And that's when we we met after that. And yeah. Anyway, there's a bunch of stuff in there. So paperwork's being filed, but we haven't been in the court yet. So I just as a handshake agreement we're like, hey Can I see the boys this time or this time? And and I'm trying to get some space from a lot of th there's a lot of toxicity here and I have a lot of my story that I'm not gonna really share right now. Yeah but

There's a little blocking away from your sons.

Yeah. A lot of blocking away from my son. So I remember flying with an agreement on an airplane from the West Coast to Baltimore. And while I'm in the air, I think I had like Wi-Fi on the thing or I downloaded my messages and I'm seeing in the air that she's like, and by the way, you're not going to see the boys this weekend when you show up. Like I'm not going to they have a some baseball game or something, you're not going to be able to see them.

Yeah.

While I'm in route to come to see them. Yeah. Like that kind of stuff. Like it was really challenging. And so Like it was so that's where so I missed so that example like first day of school. I missed their four first day of school. Yeah. Because I wasn't alerted to it and I wasn't communicating

Blocked.

She blocked and pulled it. So like So when I say I was ready to cry, that was a long way of saying it was because I think there were these moments I wanted to be present with my sons.

June.

And, you know, um I wasn't able to be. Yeah. Which is sad. Now I'm able to be in their lives now, which is great. And yeah, I think I think we have a pretty good relationship, all all you know, all three of us.

Well the the the older one is definitely a lot more attuned to you at this point.

Yeah, he was just here a few minutes ago.

Yeah.

We hung out and I know Sawyer uh he still lives with his mom mostly, but we hang out all the time. Like I just saw a movie with him last weekend or couple weekends ago. Yeah. So anyway, point point being is uh that that was where the tears were coming from. I don't think I connect to them for myself. They're more mostly for my sons than maybe the Yeah. So the unprocessed emotions probably are with them, not with my ex wife.

Right.

Mostly with what I missed in their lives.

Well, and what's interesting, I mean, you know, the of course the sad thing is that there's so many people there's so many women who wish that men would be fathers, right? They would like i even if they've separated, there are so many women who would just be like overjoyed if

Kind of by proxy too. It's like they don't they don't feel that way about you, but they're supposed to feel that way about you. That's that's the worst part. It's not even a genuine feeling they have towards you.

Right. It's like they have to take a stand for something. And so they still love you and they're like, oh well if you and and then of course it's like, well, if you would just do what you're supposed to do, Antonio, all of this would be, you know, all this would be over. And it's like

Yeah, there's levels of I think victimhood. I think there's like severity. I'm not I don't think I'm positing that I'm anywhere close to somebody in that c consider you know, that situation. Well but but from my perspective

Yeah, it's been a minute since we recorded a podcast on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. But in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it's pretty easy to run into that model, it's a pyramid model. That talks about how um there's like five primary l human needs that once we get that one met, once we lay the track of the base one, we pop up to the next one and now we're like

It's not temporary, it's more permanent than that.

Yeah, exactly. And The game that a l most of us are playing these days is safety and security. That's the that's the game we're playing. Can I pay my bills? Is my electricity gonna be shut off, right? Like

We call that survival.

Yeah. But it's not.

Truly safety and security.

Safety and security. Right, exactly. And uh and it feels like survival, but it's not. Most things feel like survival. That's actually one of the challenges of being a human at this time period. What what does um E.O. Wilson say that we have like godlike technology with pale Paleolithic emotions. Our emotions don't know that we're

To catch most things, some people still slip through. But yes, there's a there's a lot of that set up in the West. Well

And uh if you're living on the streets uh there are usually resources available, whether or not you choose to make use of them. And it's getting a little bit more desperate right now, but uh but for the most part, the the world that you and I have grown up in. You don't have to live on the streets for the most part, right? Um, usually usually drugs are involved. Usually it's you know, it's a it's a pretty dire situation.

Yeah, rejection of human relationships, family rejections, children parent relationships, ex relationships, things of this yeah, absolutely.

And sometimes those things can relate back to things like safety and security. Like when I got cancelled from my religion, I was working for people in the religion. So suddenly I didn't have a job, right? And so it can feel kind of merged together, but

Yeah, I'd be curious, you watching or listening right now, where do you put yourself on Maslow? I think most people probably are I would assume most people are hovering kind of between love and belongingness and self actualization or uh self self esteem. I think that's usually where most average people end up being. Uh sometimes you might be struggling with, you know, just food security or s safety and security in some way, like paycheck to paycheck kind of stuff. And and that's

There have been time periods where I did not have to think about money. Yeah. Like I was like I remember v very arrogantly thinking, I don't know, like seven or eight years ago, I don't think I'm ever gonna have to worry about money ever again. It's like yeah right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

My dad used to say, um, I've been poor and I've been rich and rich is better. And it's true, right? Once you're once you have money you're in a good space. So I would say most people are between safety and security. Up until self esteem uh self esteem. That's usually those three levels are the majority of people in at least this culture. Yeah.

Yeah. So help me find the narrative of connecting to what I was talking about being victim.

Oh, um I was gonna say there's victim status in all of the hierarchies.

Gotcha.

Or the hierarchy of needs.

Gotcha. So I can have a self esteem victimy, like, Oh, I lost that promotion or I lost that that big business deal or that big achievement or I didn't I went for that PhD and I didn't actually get it or whatever.

Somebody blocked me. You can have injustice at literally any level of human need.

Would you say that's victimhood is in injustice? That's the that's the frame that brings us to victimhood, is feeling righteous about injustice.

Well, uh, there's feeling like a victim and there's being a victim. And a person can be a victim without feeling like a victim. And a person can feel like a victim when they're actually not. So there's a distinction between being a victim and feeling like a victim. And um and we can we tend to conflate them. We assume that when we're feeling like a victim, we automatically are in a situation of it.

So the metric in my head, what I'm building a little working model of is true victimhood, not feeling like a victim, but real victimhood removes agency from you. Like that's what it feels like. So Like if you're a victim of something, it means that you didn't have agency to you you were helpless. You couldn't do anything different. You can't and so I would actually with that in mind, add in the replacement to maybe victimhood to say

The drama triangle?

Drama Triangle. Thank you. That's what it's called. So yeah, I see myself as so in that situation when I wanted to go sit with the Christmas tree on the sidewalk in front of my in-law's house. feeling all righteous, like I was wronged, and I'm gonna show you guys and

Mm-hmm.

And I'm gonna go play the victim here and then maybe some heroic moment will happen. Maybe someone will take mercy on me, a situation or a person will be the hero of the situation. and come set it straight. Yeah. Finally hold you to account for what you did to me and set it straight. Become the hero of the situation. Yeah. I don't know how that's gonna play out, but my instinct was if I could just play the victim role big enough, own it large enough

You wanted to reflect back the uh reflect back the villain status. To them. Yes, to them.

And maybe I didn't have a hero in mind of what it would be, but I just wanted if you want me to play this role, I'll play it well. Yeah.

If you're gonna make me a victim, I'm gonna make you a villain.

So we know the reframe of this is much more empowering. In fact people call this a different

Let me let me uh exp a person might not have I mean, my goodness, when did we do the drama triangle podcast? What, like ten years ago? Something like that. So um so just as a as a refresher back to hearkening back, you just mentioned the three roles. But basically the concept of the drama triangle is that we as humans

By the way, none of this is untrue, right? This is like this play plays out in real life. Like you could look at World War Two. Hitler's a villain. victimization of people under him and then the heroes are the allies coming in to win the war. Like this dynamic seems to play out in reality. Like we can see it that's probably why it we go there so fast.

Right. Well, I mean, it's true if you don't look in things in terms of systems. Because once you start looking at things in terms of systems, it becomes really difficult to be able to accurately diagnose who the victim, villain and hero are. It it really is a construct inside of our head. It's like it's a storytelling narrative. It's like a narrative device that has become part of how we see reality. Because honestly the truth is is that

I've literally seen this happen in the last few years. Like there was these massive fires in Hawaii and there's this terrible flood in North Carolina. like these natural disasters. And then you go online and people are talking about how somebody actively did this. Somebody manipulated the weather or turned things on and off. And and whether that's true or not, that's

Yeah.

Like there's no blame to be put onto anyone. Things just happen. Exactly. But I'm noticing this cycle of applying blame is escalating to almost things that are absurd.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe again, maybe somebody did pull something. I'm not suggesting one way or the other. I'm just suggesting that we want as humans, we want to apply this to to everything we can at this point.

That's right.

Even when it feels maybe inappropriate.

That's right. And then when some when something comes in to help or make the situation better, then you're looking for a hero. The challenge is that. Uh there's you can have a complex in all three of those positions. You can have a hero complex, you can have a victim complex, and you can have a villain complex. Yeah. And so we tend to assign these roles to ourselves.

Yeah.

If you have decided that you're the villain, then you give yourself permission to victimize, right? And then you um you also

you you you don't feel like there's any reason to try to improve or ameliorate things. But I think the most insidious one of all of them is the hero role. That's the insidious one. Uh, because we we the it it seems clear what the challenges are to you know, turn victim into an identity, right? Anybody who's like turned victim into an identity.

Or identity.

That's right. You can be a victim without it having to be your identity. Like, I mean, most of us have been victimized in some way, right? Because life is unfair. Now, there are people who have been victimized more than others. And so it's not an even, you know, it's not like not everybody has been victimized to the same d extent. But you can ex have experienced being on the receiving end of injustice and even horrific injustice.

We want to be congruent with our identities. We we find we put ourselves in circumstances that reflect back to us the identity that we carry through life.

That's right.

we're gonna like unconsciously choose things that gonna reflect back this identity. Yeah. So it's very dangerous to set your identity something

That's right.

Maybe you don't want because you're gonna get more of it then.

That's right. Now a person will be like, Well, you're just victim blaming. And um I I think there's a distinction here between victim blaming. and seeing that somebody has taken on the identity of of victimhood and are and is perpetuating the circumstances over and over. Right? Those are those are two different things. Victim blaming is when Somebody was victimized, and somehow in your brain you thought they had it coming, right? Or they deserved it somehow, or they invited it.

Can't do anything either.

can't do anything. People were yelling at them. They just couldn't hold on. I mean, it was really awful. I would never say that they wanted to die. I would never blame them for it, but they took actions that led to their own death, right? And I can't I can't say that that didn't happen, right? If somebody said I mean, if somebody said they were being really stupid for doing that, I can't argue. Like it was a it was a move of stupidity.

Like that doesn't mean that they weren't amazing human beings, incredible people, did not deserve to die.

questions are were they a victim?

They were uh right. They were victims to circumstance, I think. They were victims to their own inability to understand the context. Does that make sense?

Yeah, so if you were to victim blame them, how would that look?

Well, they're stupid and so they deserve to die. It's like Darwin Award or something.

Deserving this part. So it's not just because they I mean, you just said they were kind of stupid for going out there. Mm-hmm. So then where does the where does the actual blame enter?

They weren't stupid people. That was an act of stupidity. Right. Or like they I don't think they deserve to die, but I think they put themselves in a situation that certainly I mean, it led to it. And do I think that I I like it could have easily not. Do you know what I mean? It's like had it been a little less stormy, had she had maybe maybe it wasn't the waves weren't that bad. I don't know. I wasn't there. But it's like um

I think that's a little easier, but I think when it happens from a human to human, that's when people have a little harder time. I think most people would think that's reasonable what you're saying.

yeah but it's also

Like you can be you can be honest about the actions they took.

Yeah.

Because the ocean is unpredictable, bigger than us and it's not a person with a will or intent. Yeah. But let's say there's some you know, there's a interaction between humans and this this person that was the the villain in the situation, quote unquote. The perpetrator um did an action and it's like you know, the person didn't necessarily I guess

Absolutely. Yeah. And so um when a person perpetrates an action onto another person, another individual, did the would did the individual on the receiving end quote unquote have it coming? Well, probably not, right? Like and I say probably in the sense of like, well, did they, you know, i is this an escalation from two people at, you know, at each other's throats over time and then you discover that, right? It's like

You'd have less judgment maybe on the decision to go out there.

That's right, exactly. Right. So if we have really low expectations for the person's ability to like protect themselves, yeah, then that's we we say that person's totally a victim. So

Could we say that's like I mean, with this idea of victim, I just want to make sure I understand maybe what you're positing and and kind of I offer kind of how I see it. It's almost paradoxical in a way, in that you could never say somebody asked for victimization. But if we don't if you don't account for any level of Not responsibility to it, but like level of something

Yeah, like our like we move through the light our own world. Yeah. Yeah, you're abdicating all responsibility.

And it basically it seems like, okay, now you're gonna be a sitting duck. Right. And which just perpetuates this dynamic. So what you're trying to enter here is this idea of incre is adding an agency at this level. In order to add agency for somebody at this level, You ha you don't want victim blaming, but you have to have, I don't know, calibration, maybe not criticism, but calibration toward both sides of the equation. Right. Because you can't have an equation without two sides.

What parts like knowingly or unknowingly did they play into it, right? Maybe just being unaware in that part of town. Like that's right. Maybe be more vigilant next time. It's not your fault.

Correct.

had you been more vigilant, you might have had more agency in the situation.

Right.

That's what you're saying.

And I'm saying and actually I think going back to the point of origin of this, like the direction we're headed right now or the thing we're talking about right now, is um if we have the identity of victim, we're actually less likely to be vigilant.

Or to have to feel like we have to do that.

Or to feel like we have agency. Like we're not even vigilant, but like I I think vigilant's the wrong word, but we're less likely, yeah, to have agency because we see ourselves on the receiving end of life. So that's why it's so important to create a distinction between the status and the identity.

For some reason I thought it was gonna help the situation or or somehow add in

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna play out this drama triangle and I was gonna wait for my hero. Yeah. And that's the role of victim is very that's why it's so insidious.

I felt so helpless. I felt like I just if I I think the feeling was I just need to amp up the helplessness as big as I can make it. Like I just larger than life helpless.

Telegraph it as loudly as possible so that a hero signal can pick it up.

Yeah, telegraph my helplessness, telegraph my distress, telegraph how wronged I was and how much injustice this was performatively. They'll see it. Maybe something will alter. They'll then have to almost take on I think unconsciously I was thinking if I

Well and I think that's why the drama triangle is so imp important to self reflect on is how many times have we placed ourselves in that role and I d and I quote unquote don't even know what I was waiting for. I just know that I was ex waiting for something. Yeah. And what you're waiting for is a hero to come save you. So if you take on the role of victim, your job is to be victimized and wait for a hero to save you.

I would say that if you I mean, you did do this. You you uh we were on the phone that day. You're talked me out of doing this idea. You're like, That's not gonna work the way you think it's gonna work. I'm like, Really? I This makes so much sense to me right now.'Cause I'm in my emotions, I'm all upset. I've been I've been blocked so much. You know, just the frustration's been melting. So I'm just like this like just this moment.

Yep.

I mean, if I tune into it. Yeah. It was almost like I had more power being the victim than if I actually took agency and calm down or something. Yeah.

Yeah.

like the archetype I'm playing out right now and I wanted the I don't know, it felt like it gave me some sense of power or something.

Yeah, well it does. Actually, the role of victim actually is very powerful. It's more powerful than Uh it's more powerful than we let on. And so it's hard to let it go sometimes. And and each of those roles in the drama triangle do. Um and the

Yeah. It also let me off of responsibility too somehow. That's what I'm realizing is like'cause I'm like, why wouldn't I want agency? Why wouldn't I want to step I didn't mean to interrupt you, that's what I was on the house for. Uh why wouldn't I want agency? I'm like, Well then I have to be re like It's really nuanced. If I'm honest with myself, like at the time

Yeah.

And and the more I amp up the victimhood, the more I get off the hook. The more I don't have to be agents like agetic over my life. Yes. Or over the situation. And that is insidious, man.'Cause you get addicted to that and how that gets you out of things. Holy crap. I could see myself really going down that road and being an awful person. I mean like just, oh man, like that would be really tough.

It's so delicate. It's such a delicate balance here to I mean, I think it's it's hard to have an intelligent conversation around victim like victimhood. Uh, because you don't want to blame people who have been victimized. Uh you don't want a victim blame. But you also there is a an uh when a person I I like you said identifies with it.

And I also remember kind of feeling like I mean, again, I'm really trying to tune into my unconscious of where I was at the time. And kinda what basically my my motivations. Like what was motivating me? If I can track in my introverted feeling or authenticity, I'm trying to be really honest and like vulnerable about what they were. And I'm I also know that It gave me a great story to take back to my my family. And the people in my life to get their like support.

Yeah.

Yeah.'Cause I could amp it up and then it f it felt like I had people on my side. Yeah. And so I could build coalition with it as well. I could it almost is like a rallying cry or a gathering for my my tribe or my friends or family too. Mm-hmm. Which I think is Yeah. Again, I think the incentives are aligned here to to to not necessarily encourage us to take agency.

Yeah?

I because there's so much value and benefit from staying in that role and kind of playing that part well and performing it out even more than you feel to perform it out. I think there's a lot of benefit from it that our culture will reward or people will reward in our lives. And so I think that and we'll have self reward. We let ourselves up the hook. There just does so much. So I think there's a reason why this tends to be something we we tend to fall into. And then I think we also are just

Well

But thank God I didn't do it. I think it'd be embarrassing and humiliating to like think back that I actually did something like that.

You were legitimately being blocked out of malice or not malice. Uh I guess malice is Uh well, I I think it was definitely punitive, right? There's like a punitive nature uh to it. Like you were trying like somebody's trying to teach you a lesson. And um and so I would say that you legitimately were being victimized in that situation. But there's again the difference between the situation, circumstances, and the state.

Well and that's I like the idea this this idea of complexes is very Jungian and i these are almost archetypes running in a way, right? I mean they're roles, but we could call them archetypes. Yeah. I and I have kind of all three of them running inside of me. I've got a hero archetype. I've got a villain archetype and I've got a victim archetype. And they show up in all sorts of different different combinations. And again, we've isolated the

victim.

The victim here.

Well and I was gonna say I mean unless you're going heading this way. I was gonna say the antidote to the drama triangle was something that was presented about ten or fifteen years ago. I wanna say fifteen years ago. And um it was presented as what's called um the empowerment dynamic.

I like that. I could I could maybe flex'cause one one challenge with that, and I can imagine somebody's listening right now going, Well, that means that the bad things that happened to me, I created them then. And I don't know if I necessarily believe that. So you could you could maybe swap if that's a hard word creator'cause that's what it brings up for you, I would say you could use agent. Mm-hmm. I have agency. Yeah. I'm an agent in the world. I I can create agency.

Yeah, I think that a person shouldn't bel uh again, it's a situation versus a role. Yeah. And so if the role is creator, I think it's specifically designed to help somebody get out of the role or identity of victim. I don't think it's final form. I think have taking on the role of creator isn't necessarily final form.

It's one step to the right. Correct.

Yeah, or I would even say I think it's a better way of looking at things. I would say it's hierarchical. I would say it's a superior way of looking at things other than victim, but I don't think it's I mean the final form is like I I think agent is a great word. Right? It's like I have agency but sometimes sometimes it's taken and sometimes it's not. And you know, swapping out roles is what we do when we understand that we're not just one thing.

And then you've got this challenger instead of a villain. Mm-hmm. Challenging a situation. Yeah. And again, that's hard to see somebody that's got a knife in a back alley coming at you as, Oh, this is my challenger. Right. Like

Yeah. Well most of the time the situ the situations we're in are not quite that survival level. Sure. Most of the time it's like that asshole who did that. Yeah. Or like um

That's challenging. Like it's chall so it's challenging you to feel through the experience.

Was your ex wife and her family were they villains or were they challengers?

No, they I think they were challengers. They challenged me to learn how to find agency, to create a better world for myself, to find it took a long time for me to find all these things. Yeah. And uh and I found coaches along the way. Honestly, I found my not heroes, but people that were like, Really? Have you thought about seeing that a different way?

And that's the third one.

reframe that, buddy. Like that's not a real help. You were a coach in that moment for me.

Right.

I'm on the phone with you and you're like, Ah, I wouldn't put your don't do the Christmas tree thing on the sidewalk. That's a bad idea. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so uh so that final one is here uh instead of a hero that comes and saves the day, it's a coach. And that actually allows the creator to have more agency. If they're waiting for a hero to come save them. Well, the hero may or may not show up and then you're up a you know, you're up a creek. Yeah. But if you have if you're looking for coaches and a coach could just be a situation that teaches you something more. Right. And the same thing with

And I don't know if this is a good idea to go here. So if it's not we can edit it out, but

Okay.

The last time we talked about this, someone gave us a little bit of pushback in that they didn't they didn't s their worldview was like, You're talking about this only at an individual level. That's not where any of this plays out. They were basically kind of gave feedback like people are systemically victims and systemically oppressing other people. This is all happening at like a societal systemic level. You can't just reframe this. You have to fix it in society. Like

Yeah.

Positionally they've been m marginalized, cut off

Yeah.

Hordandoff and maybe an entire people group or an entire certain personhood or cer you know, these kinds of things, people are like, Well it's That's systemic. There's nothing a person can necessarily do that. Like the the system's too big. The system is almost the victimizer in a way.

Yeah.

But and people are behind it. So

dirties it really fast. It makes it really difficult to to find a pathway of agency because then it's like, well Who am I to fix a system that big if it's the system, like, wow, that's so big. That means I don't I have to sit here in victimhood without agency until I guess something fixes on a bigger scale. Yeah. It feels like it really removes any agency from me. Yeah. But I feel like that's almost by design. Like it it it almost feels like that's a way to like

Yeah.

With that line of thinking. Like it doesn't feel empowering at all.

Uh it's uh

I know where it what it is, but it just doesn't feel helpful.

I mean the I think the word paradox is a really good one that you chose earlier. uh when when we enter conversations around things having you know like being whole systems. Yeah. Um th I well, first of all I I mean I'm you know, like one could argue that um as a woman I'm on the receiving end of, you know, some some injustice, right? Sure.

We call you shorty for a reason.

Yeah, exactly. It's like like we're physically less, you know, le uh less strong, and so you're going to be on the receiving end of people who will sure take advantage of that. And so um so I think that there's no question in my mind that traditionally that has been the case. No, I as a woman though, I don't I don't live uh like I'm not a representation of womanhood. I'm a person. I'm an individual. I'm Antonia that is like navigating my own experience in my own life.

where you kind of are surprised out here outside of it.

Yeah, when I left my religion, I was shocked at how little sexism I was running into outside of the religion, because the religion was like the very definition of a patriarchy, right? Like the the absolute like poster child of it. And so um and so like I'm and in patriarchy like in a in kind of a ridic to a ridiculous fashion, right? To a ridiculous extent. And so

Twelve year old boys have more right.

Than seven seasoned seventy year old women.

Yeah. It's just absurd. Like they not rights, but like they get more privileges, they get more like deference and

things. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

uh what is the word patronizing or whatever like like all of those circumstances and situations. Like, well, I maybe I'm just better at navigating them. Maybe they don't bother me as much. Maybe they're I just find ways that they're not as relevant to me. I just don't stay in those circumstances or situations. And I also don't think that I'm trapped in them. That's the other thing.

And that is definitely systemic. And that had to be corrected at systemic level.

Absolutely.

You can't have like a personal growth message coming through there to fix that.

And it still exists in many parts of the world. So slavery has gone nowhere. Okay. I mean, I think I th when we were in the Middle East

Yeah.

I I observe people, I was like, oh shit, that person's a slave. Like I could tell, right? I could tell that person was a slave to that family. And um and there's like I I I mean, I didn't realize it until retrospect. I was like, I think I just observed slavery, right? It was a it was a girl who was helping a family push her lo push all of their luggage around and the way they were treating her. I was like, I'm pretty sure I just observed slavery.

Well that's why I brought it up'cause I want to make sure it we're clear that we're not trying to address social issues or systemic issues. I guess I that's why I kinda was here is I this is not necessarily you couldn't take this conversation and go, Oh, okay, well that's how I should think about this subject matter or

Like different conversation. And there's lots of podcasts and people talking about those kinds of things and and they should be. And I'm not saying that those things are not important to address, but that's not what that's not what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm going, how do I become the most Antonia in a single lifetime? And a piece of me being the most Antonian in single lifetime is to not synthetically take on the role of victim when I don't really need to.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. And I think I think um we could probably wrap up here. I think this feels pretty good to land the plane. Yeah. And uh I appreciate you letting me kinda go on that little diversion with that'cause I think that's gonna come up for somebody listening right now. Yeah.

Day to day.

Yeah. We're talking about humans that like somebody cuts you off in traffic, somebody says something, you get kicked out of your in law's house and you can't you know, like you get you get disinvited and now you feel at the mercy of something and you feel helpless.

Somebody tries to take your job fr you know, like your your role from you at work, not role but like your

Laid off.

You get laid off.

happens like these things happen in life.

Yeah.

All all of this stuff happens to us. I think that's the moments we're talking about. Yeah. The reframe. Yeah. And I don't think we're trying to blame anybody that has felt victimized. I think there's there are true things that people couldn't have helped happen to them. That's not what we're trying to say.

And I don't I mean

I'm just saying all the things we're not trying to say here.

When whenever whenever whenever you have a concept that actually is quite empowering at the end of the day and somebody goes, Yeah, but what about this? What about this? It it kinda I mean, it could be that their brain is trying to rationalize it and understand it at a deeper level, but it could also just be that they're also not wanting to accept responsibility.

Well that's yeah.

Yeah, because they're like they're you're anytime you try to wiggle out of something by giving extreme cases or going like, Yeah, but what about things at the largest, most systemic level possible? And it's like, Okay, yeah, but also what about just you as a person?

Because then it says it's not my responsibility our responsibility. It's like taking it to to the the system means that it's not my fault. It's again kinda getting off the hook. It's like it's everybody's fault, right? It's all of our responsibility.

And now we need a hero to save us.

Right. Yeah. Or a solution at the that level. Right.

a heroic solution at the highest level. So it's like, okay, yeah, probably. And also, what about just you as a person personing?

So ignoring the social stuff,'cause that's not what we're talking about.

what we're talking about.

Ignoring extreme things like getting attacked or you know anything where you're victimized in that scenario. Yeah. You get the point, hopefully, if you're listening or watching what we're talking about here, which is the middle of the road.

between you and other humans. in the world. We're suggesting that if you find yourself falling into victim, villain, hero model there on any one of those. Yeah. And you could be on any one of those. The idea is if you reframe to an empowerment dynamic, you see yourself as a creator, a coach, or a challenger in those roles instead. Those are those are better ordered archetypes to tune into.

I don't think it's final form, but I think it's certainly a better place to be. Creator is a better place to be. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Not acknowledgement of wrongdoing that has happened to you, but identity, who you believe that you are. Yeah. The role or the archetype of creator is a much more empowered place to be than victim.

Okay. So again, I'd love to hear from you if you've been listening or watching. Yeah. Uh if you feel triggered about anything we've said, just understand we're not talking about those other two extremes. We're talking about this middle of the road. So if you're gonna bring up either of those topics onto the onto the comments.

You're allowed to, but we'll just be like, okay. Right.

Maybe you didn't listen to this far in the podcast. I'll probably just post this timestamp under the comment to say uh look please come over and share what's going on for you you can share anything that's coming up for you. We're not gonna cure you're like stop that. But the conversation that I think we do want to curate is this idea here. How are you seeing yourself? Do you s do you find yourself in the drama triangle?

And then I think we could probably talk about villain next actually. I don't know if it'll be as long of a an episode, but we could probably talk about the villain position. Okay. Yeah. I think that's an interesting conversation too.

Yeah. All right. Well, my name is Joel Mark Witch.

And I'm Antonia Dodge.

talk with you on the next Personality Hacker podcast.