EPISODE 41 - JonBenét Ramsey

I woke up and I was freezing after working two full days in what seems to be the end of the summer , the end of the world , yeah , the end of my life . It's so cold , yeah .

No , nobody , I don't look good when I sleep . Your go to , your go to was your eyes were flashing . My eyes were flashing . I think you know when you think , oh , that's it , I've got a brain hemorrhage and I'm done immediately . Um , so my eyes were like flashing .

I was like I woke up and Josie was awake and there was just lightning Like I've never seen it . It's like flash , flash , flash , really blighting up the entire bedroom , really loud flashing . I mean , knock the power out , Did I say loud flashing , what's wrong with me ?

Really bright flashing , and they knocked the power out and then obviously the house alarms were bloody , going off in the middle of the night and the thunder was so bright , bright thunder . So loud . Um , yeah , it was just the best storm ever . And then when I woke up the next morning , I said to Josie Josie was ready up .

I don't know what happened , because I'm normally always up a half by six , but Josie's alarm had gone off at seven . She'd gone downstairs and sort of herself out whatever , made a tea , and then she'd come up to put a makeup on ready for work . And then , as soon as she I heard her I opened my eyes and I just went is the world flooded ?

Because the torrential rain was someone else ? We didn't have that . Or if we did , it didn't wake me up when we slept with , like , all the windows open . Yeah , our window was open , but Josie sleeps under the windows . She was starting to get wet . Yeah , what's the weather doing ? We don't know . It's like apocalyptic weather . It was .

It was really , yeah , something else . Oh , there's a towel flowing off me washing . I put the washing out , obviously , because it's bloody , but there's a towel gone , missing . It's next door .

Yeah , well , on the on the note of the storm , I have to say thank you so much for your last episode and , after all of my threats of you're not going to do this to me , are you Sarah , you're not going to talk about a plane crash when I've got to get on a plane .

So the storm started for me at the airport when I was sitting on the plane looking out onto the runway and I thought , oh , it's started chucking it down . Oh , it's a bit stormy , oh , look at those clouds that were about to fly through . Yeah , so that was fun . I was silent , motionless Shit in it , but it was fine . It was actually really good flight .

It was actually really smooth , no turbulence , and I kept thinking . Sarah said a plane has never crashed due to turbulence . Please don't let this be the first one .

middle , doesn't go anywhere .

Okay , so the jelly is the , when you , when you the air , and when you knock it , that's the turbulence and it's moving around everywhere , but the airplane doesn't do anything , doesn't go up , doesn't go down . Okay , that's , that's what I read .

It sounds fun , but my fear is that the air is air and not fucking jelly , and the plane is a great big thudding piece of metal and not a piece of fucking paper . All right , I'll see what you're saying , I'm just going to put it out there . I've just eaten a biscuit . And it was the best biscuit I've had in ages .

Why , it was a little bit stale , so they go a bit soft , didn't they ? Do you know what ? I was like that with a packet of watsits yesterday I found in the back of my car which sounds horrendous , but I mean , I was aware of this bag . I'd only like opened it .

I think , like that morning or something , and I was , yeah , sitting in the back of my car waiting to do my next job and I was like , ooh , I love one of those and they were just slightly stale . So they were like slightly like chewy .

Right , you did get in there first , good one . I was like , oh , what are you going to say ? Really intrigued ? Yeah , blammed me right in the face . You in Blammed you . Yeah , random blam , I once stole , attempted to steal , a lady's pot of hot chocolate . That's the most random thing I've ever heard and I've just heard a story about paper and jelly .

I should tell you what happened . We was in Cadbury world , we was at the checkout and we was buying a pot of hot chocolate and I was like , oh , I'm going to get another one . I was like , oh , I'm going to get another one . Honestly , when the lady scanned it , it was all like denti , get the side .

She was like , oh , do you want to go and get another one ? So I said , yeah , I'll go and get another one . And then when I looked , there was one right next to me and it was like in a you know , like a little grocery box , just like a little Carb already box , and I was like , oh , there's one right here .

And I picked it up and I was like , oh , this one . The lady next to me , she was like , oh , I'm going to get another one . And I was just like , oh , sorry , and I just put it back . Now . You'd think I'd be embarrassed . However , shit like that happens to me all the time .

You were just like just another day in the life of Sarah and then Josie was dying on the inside because I just nicked this woman's hot chocolate . Because it was just like , oh , there's just one right next to me , where the lady happens to also be buying things . And then she was like no , no , no , no , she was aggressive , no , I was aggressive .

I was like , yeah , I'll have this one Taking that . Yeah , oh , yeah , right , thanks , random blam , go . My random blam is that I am a drone pilot . That is what I do for a full time job . So , with this weather as it is at the moment , not the best job in the world because I'm fighting 50 mile an hour winds , which is our worst fear as drone pilots .

But yeah , that's what I do . Blam , blam , that's it . Let's get on with the episode . Morning Morning , morning , morning Morning . It's just just about morning . Have had a bit of a delay this morning due to me . Sorry , I'm just . I kept redoing this story and jigging it about because it's a real controversial one .

There's been a lot of discussion , there's been a lot of media blurb about it , media buzz , media buzz . So , without further ado , this is the tragic story of John Benet Ramsey . Oh gosh , I know , yeah , this is a great story . It is , and I hope that I've got all the bits and pieces in .

I had a little jig around , but yeah , it's a really sad , sad , sad story , obviously , because it involves the death of a child . So this episode comes with a trigger warning it contains details of the murder of a child and I have included some details that people might find distressing . So just to let you know .

Okay , john Benet Ramsey was born on August 6th in 1990 in Atlanta , georgia . She was the daughter of John Ramsey and Patricia or Patsy Ramsey . Her name was actually a combination of both her parents' names , so her father was John Benet Ramsey and her mum's first name was John Benet's middle name , so she was John Benet , patricia Ramsey .

John was the president of Access Graphics , a computer software company , and this family were like loaded . They were millionaires , they had a big house , they had many cars , blah , blah , blah , lots of money . Patsy Ramsey , john Benet's mum , was an American beauty pageant winner and she won Miss West Virginia pageant at the age of 20 , which was in 1977 .

The Ramsey's also had a son called Burke Burke Ramsey , and he was born on the 27th of January 1987 . So he was a couple of years older than his sister , john Benet , and Burke was nine years old when all this happened . Patsy got John Benet into pageants at a very early age and John Benet was a hit .

She won many , many , many titles and she's beautiful , wasn't ? she , she is absolutely beautiful , like flawless , beautiful Blonde hair , blue-eyed yeah , curly blonde hair , blue eyes , immaculate skin . So anyway , that's a bit of background on the family . Loaded pageant , winner , software company owner , son Burke nine . Now we'll get to the story .

Christmas day the Ramsey family go to a friend's house for Christmas party . Lots of people there . When they got home on Christmas day night John claimed and I'm adding in a lot of claims and they say , and things like that so because this was a huge case and it went all through the courts and the Ramsey's sued lots of people .

So I want to be very careful about what I say and things like that , just in case . I mean there's no point in suing us , we haven't got anything . Christmas day , the Ramsey's go to the family party . They come home , john the father claimed that he carried John Benet up to bed . He read their son Burke a story and then he took himself off to bed .

On the morning of December 26th 1996 , patsy came , claims that she came downstairs and she found a note left on the stairs of the bottom of the staircase at the back of the house . I mean they've got multiple staircases so that already tells you , yeah , to have to describe which staircase it was .

Yeah , Was that in the West Wing or the East Wing servants quarters ? Yeah , so it was on the bottom of the staircase at the back of the house . The note read Mr Ramsey I won't do it in a , Mr Ramsey , Listen carefully . We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction .

We respect your business , but we do not respect the country that it serves . At this time , we have your daughter in our possession . She is safe and unharmed and if you want to see her , you must follow our instructions to the letter . You will withdraw $118,000 from your account . $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 will be in $20 bills .

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank . When you get home , you will put the money in a brown paper bag . You will call between 8 and 10 am . Oh yeah , sorry . I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow and instruct you on delivery . The delivery will be exhausting , so I advise you to be well rested .

If we monitor you getting the money early , we might call you earlier to arrange an earlier delivery of the money , Hence earlier pick up of your daughter . Any deviation from my instruction will result in the immediate execution of your daughter . You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial .

The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you , so I would advise you not to provoke them . Speaking to anyone about your situation , such as police , FBI etc . Will result in your daughter being beheaded . If we catch you talking to a stray dog , she dies . If you alert the authorities , she dies .

If the money is in any way marked or tampered with , she dies . You will be scanned for electronic devices and if there are any found , she dies . You can try to deceive us , but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics . You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us .

Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back . You and your family are under constant scrutiny , as well as the authorities . Don't try to grow a brain , John . You are not the only fat cat around , so don't think that killing will be difficult . Don't underestimate us , John . Use that good southern common sense of yours .

It's up to you now , John Victory . Exclamation mark SBTC . That's it . Patsy claims that she then rushed upstairs to find John Bernay's bed empty at 5.52am , so this had all happened before . Like 5.52am , that's early . She woke John , her husband , and they called the police , despite the note telling them not to .

I mean , you've all just heard it , you know , even if we see you talking to a stray dog . I mean I'd be screwed because I speak to dogs whether they're strayed or not . What would you do , though you wouldn't just not do anything , I don't know . I mean , patsy was in a panic and you know she picked up the phone and she phoned the police straight away .

I think after getting that , note me personally , I think I would be a little bit hesitant . Do you know what I mean ? It's your daughter , young daughter , and they're saying you know you're being watched , you're being followed , you're being heavily scrutinised . If you do anything , we're going to behead your daughter .

I'd been such a panic about what if they came up with this , it's true , and they do yeah . Yeah , I could be the reason that they behead our daughter , but I don't know . You don't know what you're going to do until you're in that sort of position .

But anyway , I have the main body of the 911 call and I'm hoping that if I play it , you're all going to be able to hear it . Yeah , so I'm going to do that now 911 emergency .

I just found the note and my daughter is gone . Is it the same checker ? What Is it the same checker ? I don't know . There's a ransom note here . It's a ransom note . It says FBTC Victory . Please . Okay , what's your name ? Are you happy ? I'm happy , I'm happy . I'm the rubber . Oh my God , please , okay , I'm sitting on the sofa .

Okay , do you know how long ago was this ? I don't know . I just found the note . Oh my God , is it the same checker ? What Is it the same checker ? I don't know , please . Do you know how long she's been gone ? No , I don't , please . We just got out of the gym right here . Oh my God , please , okay , please . This is the buddy I am , honey .

Please Take a deep breath . Please , hurry , hurry , hurry . Patsy , Patsy , patsy .

There's a note left and our daughter is gone . A note was left and your daughter is gone . Yes , how old is your daughter ? She's six years old . She's blonde , six years old . How long ago was this ? I don't know . Just found the note and my daughter is missing . Does it say who took her ? What Does it say ? Who took her ?

No , I don't know , it's , it's there . There is a ransom note there . Here . It's a ransom note . It says SBTC victory . Please , okay , what's your name ? Are you Patsy Ramsey ? I'm the mother . Oh God , please . I'm okay . I'm sending an officer over , okay , please . Do you know how long she's been gone ? No , I don't , please .

We just got up and she's not here . Oh my God , please , okay , please , send somebody . I am honey . Please Take a deep breath . Then there's a lot of inaudible . You can hear Patsy saying hurry , hurry , and then she says something that's inaudible , and then the 911 operator says Patsy , patsy , patsy , patsy , patsy , patsy , patsy .

Now it seems like a perfectly normal .

There's another bit that I'm going to come to in a little bit . That was particularly chilling , but I don't want to taint your view of it straight away .

So anyway , after that call , the police came and they searched the house , but they were looking for a way a kidnapper could leave with a child , and the door to the basement was closed with a latch peg in it and that . So Officer Rick French did not open it as he thought , well , that no one's going to be able to exit through there with a child .

Right wrong . There's . A lot of people have got different views on that , but at 1pm the police instructed Mr Ramsey and family friends to go around the house and check to see if anything was out of place , but really instruct a member of the family to go around the house and say , is there anything else out of place , or anything like that .

So anyway , this was seven hours after the initial police call as well , which I think is just ridiculous . There was also reports that about 11am John Ramsey , the father , had also been wandering around the house anyway and mumbling and what we're going to do ? We've got to do something .

But he'd been in a lot of different places and there was a report that he went down to the basement and came back up and said no , nothing's a miss kind of thing . But this account was fiercely fault in the courts and you know , john denied that , but there was several of the police officers there that had said that he did .

So 1pm the police said to Mr Ramsey go and check , see if there's anything out of place . John's first point of call was I'm going to go down to the basement . So he immediately opened the door to the basement , went downstairs and sadly he found the body of his daughter , john Bernay .

John Bernay was discovered in the basement of a house , behind the very door that Officer French deliberately did not open and look . If he'd have opened it he would have seen her straight away . Her body was covered with a white blanket that is thought to be a blanket from her bedroom .

John then immediately picked up his daughter and carried her upstairs and laid her body down in the lounge in front of the Christmas tree , which was another very controversial move . There was a lot of people that said that that was done deliberately . You know , lay her down in front of the Christmas tree , I don't know .

Unfortunately , by doing this he destroyed any possible evidence that had been left on her or around her . He proceeded to hold his daughter to him , hugged , kissed her , brushed her face , touched her face , and at any point was he told by the police not to do this as it would obviously contaminate any potential evidence . So we get to the autopsy .

John Bernay Ramsey had died from asphyxiation due to strangulation . She also had a large , very significant skull fracture . Her mouth had been covered in duct tape and her wrists and neck were wrapped with a white cord . Sexual assault had occurred , although there was no conclusive evidence of rape , as no semen was found on her body .

But it was found that her vagina had it appeared to have been wiped clean and there was some blood evident there , but the blood had been wiped . She was found with a garot around her neck and it had been with a , you know , like a garot .

It's essentially a sort of a loop of something and then you just tie it around like a stick or a stick goes through it and then the sticks then twisted to tighten it up . So the stick that had been used to tighten it was actually one of Patsy's paintbrushes that was like would have been in the basement .

So there was no evidence of if this had been from an intruder . Why would they have not actually brought anything with them ? Why would they have killed her and then left her ? Answer note what was the garot made from ? What sort of wire ? And the bindings as well . They must have brought duct tape and the bindings and Well , again , they don't know .

It could have been . I mean , there was many things in the basement on the shelves that could have . There could have been duct tape there . There could have been white cable there . The detectives did an amazing job of , you know , researching receipts to see if you know it had been purchased by the family .

But the initial investigation it was thought that the wire , the duct tape , the garot , everything had been from things that were in the house . In the basement there wasn't found to be anything that had been brought in . Jumbine was found to have things . Obviously .

They investigated what she had in her stomach as part of the autopsy and they found that she had milk and a quite large amount of fresh pineapple in her stomach and pineapple was her absolute favourite .

But the family said she hadn't eaten any pineapple at the party and the coroner said that she would have eaten this pineapple at the most a few hours before her death . So it was very , very recent . There was a bowl of pineapple on their kitchen table and it only .

It was found to only have the fingerprints on it of their nine-year-old son , burke and Patsy , and that's it . There was also a bowl , an empty bowl . It found in Jon Bernay's bedroom . So again , she could have .

Potentially she could have eaten it before she went to bed , but there are some suggestions that she came down in the middle of the night , possibly with her brother , don't know . The case got a lot of media attention .

Several theories and suspicions started circulating wildly , including the involvement of her family , maybe one of her family members , maybe an intruder , or maybe both . There was all sorts of suspicions flying around .

The investigation faced challenges , including a complex crime scene , a lot of cross contamination and a huge amount of mistrust between the investigators and the Ramsey family .

A few weeks ago I read the book Jon Bernay inside the Ramsey murder investigation by Steve Thomas , and Steve Thomas was one of the investigators , one of the lead investigators on the case and if you guys are interested in the story of Jon Bernay , I cannot recommend this book enough .

It's got so much detail in it and it's from the police investigation side and it it's absolutely mind-blowing how the Ramsey family just did not co-operate at any point , like at all . It's just , it's ridiculous .

They had a huge team of the best highest paid lawyers that you know that money could buy and every time there was a question or something was put to the family or anything like that , this huge team of solicitors seemed to just put up this wall in front and they were like no , we're not , we're not talking about that , we're not , you know , we're not going to

discuss that , and that is for me that is a huge red flag .

And you know , there was one window in the basement and it had cobwebs in front of it and it had a thick layer of dust that was undisturbed . Yeah , and also the . The ransom note is completely irrelevant because she hadn't been kidnapped and exactly held for ransom . So that ransom note is completely irrelevant , isn't it ?

It is , it's just bizarre , it's , you know . But anyway , I'll go on to that and then we , you know , we , we can discuss what we think . I'll give you as much information as I can . So , over the years , multiple suspects were considered and questioned , but no charges have ever been filed and the case remains officially unsolved .

Dna was not advanced as it is today , and the samples that were gathered from John Benet's clothing showed a male who was not a family member . In 2016 , the DNA was tested again and showed genetic markers from two people other than the victim and they have not been matched to anything in any database .

The ransom note was noted to be unusually long and it had very detailed and it had also been written in in the house . So it's very unusual , I'm told , for kidnappers to enter a house and try and find some paper and a pen . Exactly , it had no fingerprints on it apart from Patsy's and the authorities that had handled it , and that was it , which , fine .

I can imagine that you know any kidnapper would wear gloves . That's fine . The note was written in handwriting that looked exactly like Patsy's and that's . There's been a lot of controversy over the note in particular , obviously because it's the only sort of real evidence that was supposedly left from the kidnappers .

Correct me if I'm wrong as well , but I feel like this is from no solid source , but men and women have very different handwriting . I don't know . Actually I did . The note had been . It went through a lot of handwriting experts and they said that they felt the writing was very , very similar to Patsy's and even bits that had been .

There were certain letters that had been deliberately changed . So yeah , there was a lot of that .

The paper that it was written on was proven that it was from Patsy's notebook and the pen that it had been written with was Patsy's pen , and the notebook and pen were obviously used and then put back exactly where they where they lived , which obviously authorities said was very odd .

Yeah , because if you're coming in to do a crime , you're not going to care about where you put the pen and the notepad back , are you Exactly ? I mean , why would you rip it off and put it on the bottom of the stairs anyway ?

Yeah , over the next few weeks , ramsey's family were allowed to go in and out of the house whenever they wanted to retrieve belongings , the whole time while the investigation was going on . Which , when I read Steve Thomas's book , he was like this , just this doesn't happen . This is not protocol at all .

When there's a house where someone has been found murdered , it's an active crime scene . Yeah , it's an active crime scene , you don't let people go in and out .

But by all accounts , patsy Ramsey was very bulky with it and she was like , well , I need to get stuff from the house , you know , and you know a driver would drop her off out on the drive , you know , and she would .

She was just allowed to sort of walk in and they said it's normal that you know if you're kicked out of your house because someone's been murdered and there's an investigation , it's normal that you would be allowed to go in and collect like essentials . But Steve Thomas said that this was not the case .

Patsy was coming out with arm falls and arm falls of toys for Burke . She had teddies that belonged to John Bernay . She had clothes , pyjamas , just unnecessary bits , and pieces yeah just things that and this is a millionaire family .

Me personally , if I was a millionaire and one of my children had just been found murdered , I would be giving the police whatever they wanted , whatever they needed . I'm not going to touch anything in that house . If my son needs pyjamas and clothes and things to play with , I'll just go and buy some .

Yeah , we're millionaires , just go and buy some and say to him we need to not touch anything in the house . Yeah , but that wasn't the case . She was in and out with like filling up great big plastic boxes of stuff and bringing them out , put , loading them all up in the police vehicles and it's just yeah , it's just not not right , I don't think .

But here's some more red flags . One why didn't they check on Burke ? Because they didn't . When Patsy came downstairs and found the ransom note , she said that she rushed upstairs , looked in Jambonné's room to see empty bed , went and woke her husband up , came downstairs Do you know ? If you've got two children , you're going to check on both of them .

That for me was a huge red flag . Yeah , why the hell wouldn't they have gone in or at least stuck their head in and said oh , you know , burke's there and he's okay . I mean , I'd be like shaking my son awake . Are you okay ? Are you okay ? Did you hear anything ? Did you see anything ? And any ?

Why didn't they go in there and check that , like Jambonné wasn't in with Burke ? Yeah , didn't check the rest of the house ? Yeah , that for me that's a huge red flag . Why the hell wouldn't they have checked on Burke ? There were also . There were no footprints outside the home and it was snowing . So , again , no outsiders .

Yeah , the snow just didn't look disturbed at all . There was no hesitation to call the police , even though they said you know they would behead Jambonné if they did . Why would the kidnapper have left the note on the back staircase and for me and for many other people that's a big red flag . Why would they not have put it on the main staircase ?

It would have had to have been someone that knew that when the family get up and come down to the kitchen , they always use that back staircase and it's a much smaller , hidden away staircase .

Why would they have taken it through and put it on the stairs ? Or why wouldn't they have just left it on the kitchen table ? If they knew that they were going to come down and go into the kitchen , make coffee , whatever , why would they not have just left it in the kitchen ? Why put it on the back staircase ? Bizarre , bizarre , bizarre .

The ransom note demanded $118,000 , which is a strange amount , but this was the exact amount to the dollar of John's Christmas bonus and also this family with millionaires . Why ask for $118,000 ? Yeah , that's so specifically a certain amount in 20s and a certain amount in hundreds .

Strange , strange , strange that there's also the matter that Patsy said that after the phone call she obviously she knew that police were coming . They certainly other . She went upstairs and got dressed and then came back downstairs , waited for the police to turn up .

However , patsy Ramsey was wearing the exact outfit that she had worn the day before , the evening before to the Christmas party . That's weird . That's weird . Exactly , and that's what they said . She said that she woke up . She went downstairs , she found this note .

She's always prided herself on I know that wouldn't be at the forefront of your mind like what you're going to wear , but this is a woman that just why put on the exact outfit ? And she also had a full face of makeup . I just don't buy it . I just I'm sorry , I just I don't .

I think she was still dressed and she still had her makeup on from the night before . Yeah , I don't think she'd been to bed . And if she hadn't been to bed , obviously she knew that . If the yeah , exactly , the police would say if you hadn't been to bed , then obviously you must have been aware of something .

Yeah , and she was like well , no , I did go to bed and they said so . You've got up at like five o'clock in the morning , noticed that well , found out that your daughter has been kidnapped . Someone's been in your house , kidnapped your daughter and is holding you to ransom .

And you decide to then go upstairs , put the same clothes on that you had on the night before and do your hair and makeup

. It's a huge red flag for me . I'm not going to lie . Do we know an approximate time of death ? Oh no , because it was a contamination of evidence and it was on it . It was a bit of a shit show . What was a huge shit show ? I'll be honest . There's .

There's so , so , so little information about Jean Benet's death that I mean it could have just solved everything . But honestly , the Ramsey family lawyers were so protective over the Ramsey's that it was just difficult to get any kind of consistent information .

They were asked to do lie detectors as well , and they they claimed that they said yes , we would do one , and the police say no , they didn't .

And another voice that sounds like John saying no one's talking to you , right ? So do we think that was Burke ? Well going , what's going ?

That then led to a lot of controversy about the fact that they thought maybe Burke may have been the one that was involved in John Bernay's death , because he's saying what did you find ? And John's quite sounds irritable and short fused and says no one's talking to you and it's like why ? Why would he have been angry at him ?

Because maybe he did something , berks saying what did you find ? Why would that make people believe that actually maybe he had something to do with it ? I don't think it was so much him saying what did you find . I think it was more John saying no one's talking to you , but I don't know .

Possibly it might have been that he was sort of saying what did you find , as in like what have you got in your hand ?

A DNA profile has now been compared to 1.6 million profiles , with no match .

There was also a thought to be a pubic hair that was found on the blanket that was covering Jombene's body . However , in previous weeks and months before Jombene's murder , the family had let all sorts of friends and family sleep in Jombene's room and in her bed .

So again , it was so difficult because they said , well , you know , pubic hairs could have been from someone that was sleeping on Jombene's bed . It's just there was such a mixed match of information . Why would they let people sleep on her bed ? Where would she be , I don't know , maybe in with her parents ? Honestly , it was so difficult .

The police had an absolute flipping nightmare with this . Yeah , in June 2006 , patsy Ramsey died from ovarian cancer and is buried next to her daughter . In August 2006 , after more than a decade of investigation , the Ramsey family is formally cleared as suspects due to lack of evidence .

Jombene was laid to rest in Marietta , georgia , on New Year's Eve and her grave is right beside that of her older sister , elizabeth , who died in a car accident five years earlier , at the age of 22 . So the theories are that it was Patsy who flew into a rage and killed her daughter due to a heated argument , possibly over bedwetting .

So there was another thing where there was a urine stain that was found on Jombene's pyjamas and there was people that worked within the Ramsey house that apparently said in interviews that Patsy would like pretty much would go nuts over her daughter bedwetting .

There was Jombene's pyjamas that were screwed up into a ball on the side in the bathroom , which again was another question . Why was that not spoken about ? If she'd wet her bed and potentially they'd had to take her pyjamas off , put it on the side of the sink in the bathroom . That was never mentioned . Yeah , and where did that happen then ?

Because John said that he carried his daughter in , put her in her bed and then he went next door and read Burke a story and then took himself off to bed . So where did that happen ? Why would there be screwed up pyjamas on the side ?

So she wanted them to kind of you know twin at the party and Jombene came down in a different outfit and said , oh , I don't want to wear that . And apparently they had a bit of a balmy over that .

And the theory is that there was rumour that Burke , there may have been some sexual things that were happening and they had an argument and Burke , smachty's sister over the head with something which would have fractured her skull . Harold was Burke again , he was nine and Jombene was six .

And you see , the parents would have had to have then thought of a cover story . And you know , patsy maybe sat down and wrote out the ransom note . One of them some of them , I don't know tied the Gorot around her neck . And the another theory is that it was John the father . Why was he so quick to contaminate the evidence ?

Again , like I mentioned earlier , there was a . It was said that he went down to the basement at about 11 o'clock to , I think , check a window or check the window or something , to see whether it anyone had come in and out of it .

And going down to the basement and I'm pretty sure it was with an officer as well , yeah , but they obviously they didn't search the basement , but it was said that he went down there . They checked the window and said no , no one's coming in and out of that window , so went back upstairs .

But I don't know how the layout of the basement is , but if they'd have gone just slightly a different way , they would have seen Jombene's body . There was also scuff marks on in the basement and actually on Jombene's body on her back it looks like she'd been dragged . So was it possible that out of panic , you know , jombene ended up being killed ?

The parents took her down in the basement and put her somewhere and then staged it . Maybe John and this officer went down to the basement to check the window and John thought like we were supposed to find her and we didn't , yeah , and then he was asked to go and check if everything was in order .

He thought , right , I'm going straight down to the basement , I'm going to drag her so that she's in clear view or something . I don't . Possibly . And obviously there's another theory , that it was an intruder , and it was an intruder that knew the family . They knew that they'd maybe stayed in the house before , so there was going to be DNA evidence .

Well , yeah , you know , of course , there's a hair of mine found in the hallway because I've stayed at that house . Yeah , they knew that John got a Christmas bone . I mean , what a Christmas bonus 118,000 . Jeez , never had that .

If it's not on you . I mean , I would think , even I mean I know you and Josie . Well , yeah , I'm pretty sure you'd be freaked out if you came down in the middle of the night and I was sitting at your kitchen table and went all right , so just writing a note . Yeah , just writing a note . No need to check where Haley is .

You'd be like what , don't go to the basement . Yeah , don't go down the basement , we haven't got a basement . I'll be like I just made one . That's what I mean about the fact that the ransom note is really irrelevant , because she wasn't .

If , for instance , the family had killed her and then , you know , buried her in the garden or something where nobody could find her , it would then look like she'd been abducted , look like she was being held for ransom , but actually she wasn't at all . I know , it's just , it's so perplexing and Burke wasn't allowed to be interviewed .

The family and the family's lawyers would not permit it . Why , why .

I think there wasn't there a lot to do with the mafia as well . There was . I don't know if there was a lot . I mean there was some rumours of . I mean there's so much , honestly , yeah , so so much in this book . It just my head exploded .

There was a lot of speculation about what the letter meant , what the initials in the letter meant S , B , T , C or something , wasn't it yeah ? It's just , it's really , really bizarre and it just , it just doesn't make sense to me and I know which way I'm leaning and I don't want to get sued , but I just , I just can't understand what the purpose .

So what the hell was the point of the ransom note if it wasn't to make it look like she'd been taken out of the house ?

All over again it is . I know it really is . All of these different theories and conclusions and I'm thinking it's a yeti in both , do you think , because it's always like oh well , it could have been this , but actually that doesn't fit . So then it could have been this , but actually that also doesn't fit .

Yeah , I mean the bit on the phone call that freaks me out , like why would the parents , if Burke was sitting there , saying , why , what did you find ? And they were like no one's talking to you , like we're not ready to tell him that his sister's just been found murdered ? Yeah , that's fine , that's understandable .

However , why would the parents then say , no , burke's been in bed , not at any point . Did he come downstairs ? Yeah , why , I don't get it . Can someone just answer some of these questions for me please ? Because , honestly , since I've read that book , it's just put even more question in my mind of why were the families so obstructive with helping the police ?

Why would they constantly contaminate in the evidence and the crime scene ? You know , the police said that Patsy could be sitting on the sofa singing a Christmas song , humming away to herself , and then , as soon as other people came , like friends of the family or anything , came to the house and , like , went in the front room . Instantly she's in flood of tears .

I'm not saying that that's necessarily guilt , because I don't know how I would react in that situation . Yeah , but you've got to admit that's fucking weird .

Yeah , I just don't understand why they would hide behind a whole team of lawyers , because it just makes them look suspicious , yeah , and from the other side of it , the surroundings of the murder do look suspicious , so they could just be protecting themselves , I'm sure .

Yeah , I mean , I'm sure that's to a point that's true , but I wouldn't put Going into the house though and like disturbing all the evidence and shit . I would rather put myself in the spotlight and have a chance of the police finding who killed my child in my own house while I was supposedly asleep upstairs .

At any cost , I would need to know who done it and they just didn't come across like that . They just came across as very just all about them and we need to protect us and we need to save our reputation . I don't know , I don't know .

For me , I would just need to find out who it was , and also , I'd be terrified that they'd come back and do the same thing to my son . Yeah , I don't know . I can't get past the initial suspicion of the parents . I just can't . You know , I just there's just so much to it . Blam , future Blam .

And I mean , if you put something across and say I know loads and loads and loads about this case or about this discussion or whatever it might be , we'll put you on the actual episode . It'd be great , it'd be great to have some people that know more than I do , which is everyone I'm talking to the whole world .

But , yeah , if you know about a particular topic , in fact stuff it .

Let's decide what our next Blam discussion is going to be right here , right now , and then , when this episode airs , people will have I don't know two weeks or whatever until we do , until we record , and they can have two weeks to get involved and send us emails , perplexed podcasts , at gmailcom . What should we do ?

Just have a little look , I think aliens , yeah , especially with everything that's been happening recently in the news . What's been happening recently in the news ? Well , apparently , as of the news this morning , they've proven that the alien sightings that they've recently seen Want to say what's happening ? Yeah , there was loads in America , wasn't there ?

Yeah , but there's the recent one and they've actually apparently proven that it's not human DNA . Oh , okay , well , yeah , we can look that up . So we'll discuss that . I'll make sure that we get lots of good , reliable information , yeah , and yeah , okay . So next , blam UFOs . Yes , do you believe ?

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