Steph Green

her voice counts for something. Our voice is a reflection of our life experience, where we've been and who we've listened to. But we can also own it and even change it if we want. This is the podcast that's all about the voice, but it's also all about power, Who has it, how we get it, and how we

sound when we have it. I'm Samrve. I'm a dialect coach for actors in Hollywood on projects like the upcoming Wonder Woman's sequel, and I'm also a speech coach for entrepreneurs, politicians, creatives, and women everywhere who need to use their voice to get what they want. Welcome to permission, to speak. Let's do this. Today's guest is Steph Green. She is a

director for television and film. In fact, one of her first films, Short in two thousand and seven, got an Oscar nomination right out of the gate, and she's gone on to direct film and many many episodes of television. She did Billions, she did the Americans Man in the High Castle, an episode of Watchmen, the L Word, which we talked about in this interview. So she's had to use her voice to lead, and this is why I

really wanted to have her on. The culture that she's doing it in is totally unique, you know, hashtag set life, but there's lessons for all of us. What's crazy about the Hollywood aspect of it is that when you're directing on set, things move super fast. There are no walls to your office, there's a massive amount of money on

the line and hundreds of people's jobs. You often have to decide things on the fly based on gut instinct, and there's a real but often unlabeled and like completely nebulous hierarchy of power players whose interests you have to juggle or everyone will mutiny. HR isn't a thing, and it's also deeply male dominated, and within that you have

to make decisions and make art anyway. I have gotten to see her work firsthand because I dialect coached on a show that she directed, and I am very excited to be able to bring the magic I saw then to you guys. Now Here's stuff staff. It's such a pleasant here pleasure to be. I remember when I was had the honor of being a dialect coach on a Steph Green set for the TV show Preacher, like two years ago in New Orleans. Was great, and you called

me part of the mind meld tear. It was such I mean, you know, obviously were I've been in a lot of sets. I mean every director deals with the dynamic of collaboration on a set differently. I have noticed, almost exclusively, the women are the ones who are most open to like turning around to the people who sit behind them in video Village and actually using those resources.

That's interesting. Your position of that close observation of the director is very I mean it's really producers, script supervisor and a very select few that are sitting that close to the director on set. That's a really interesting person for anybody listening. Video Village is where the video monitors are set up that we're watching the action happen for

every single take. And yeah, the front row is usually the director and the script supervisor who keeps track of continuity, you know, take if by take by take, and then hovering around there is often a writer of from a producer, and then the strange other person who somehow gets gets her way in is the dialect coach. Because really we are working pretty intimately with the actors and with everybody, trying to make sure that the story is being told

with both the sounds and also literally the words. And I find that that's a sacred space. That's my office, that's all of our offices on set. And though many different crew members may come up to you as a director and ask a question, or you may need something and go talk to them, of the hundred people on set, there are generally four or five people in that little

office looking at that screen. And what I loved about having you there, and what I love about having that coach there is they are scrutinizing what's happening on screen with performances the same way I am. You know, I'm looking at other things too, but I like the partnership of someone else squinting, you know, in this focused way at that screen, that little monitor that's that's giving us everything, all the results of all the hard work that's happening

on that set. You know, that capturing Ultimately in the editing room, that's what you got. So I really appreciate that, and I appreciate all the levels of collaboration. You wanted to talk about communication, Maybe we start with set and we can kind of talk out from there. But that's

what I was thinking about on the way here. I was thinking about communication on set and sort of energetically how you are balancing your very careful position of power and leadership with the fact that you need every single individual on that set to be helping you at one time, you know, and you're looking at them there, You're with them, You're in contact with them. I can imagine in other industries someone from down in another department maybe doing something

for you, but you may never interact with that. I mean literally, you just referenced video village as your office, but it has no walls exactly exactly. So you are learning daily and for me, attempting to improve communication with such a diverse and constantly fluid group of people, a lot of people, So how do you create a shorthand?

I mean that is where where prep is so important, because prep is where you are working with heads of department, which would be like costume design, production designer, makeup and hair, and you are establishing the shared vision ahead of time, you know, getting onto the same page as all your heads of department. That's your like board meeting. I guess that you're in for prep and then I find like really learning who their departments are, who are their key people,

who are they being supported by? And knowing those names. I mean that's a huge thing and that names are really hard for me, and it's something I'm really working on. You know, being able to look at someone in the eyes say a name and then of course they thank you or ask your question or listen to their contribution, like step one and learning a hundred names quickly is

a thing. And you know, we talked about it. Some of the producers I work with you always are like should we put name tags on the first couple of weeks of working together? But and I'm for it because I think we're moving so quickly. That's the other thing. We're moving so fast. So I think about communication, but I was also sort of driving here thinking I think about how I listen, and then how it is a demand of the job to be decisive and supportive, because

that's what I'm information. You're you're listening, but you're also not just saying yes to everybody. You can't. You can't because they have conflicting ideas. Sometimes you know, one department thinks one way, in one department, you're not moderating as well. Yeah, and you have your own vision eating that you're trying to bring to the table, elevating, shaping the show, shaping the storytelling. So can you talk about a moment when you actually have to be decisive and it's going to

make somebody frustrated? Right? You know? It's it's interesting because you have to understand and anticipate and know them well enough to understand how that disappointment works for them, and because it is such compressed time. I do feel that it's incredibly important to acknowledge what they are bringing, what they have done, how they are guiding the decision making, and that in fact there contribution, even though I may

not see it that way. Has helped me clarify how I do see it, and I think that making sure that you're you're gracious about that, and you're acknowledging of that that that idea is really valuable. Here where people start to collapse is when they feel their ideas aren't valuable. And it's a really fine line because you need to make those decisions quickly. I just snapped at the microphone. Sorry, microphone.

You need to make those decisions so quickly that people can get it can get very personal very quickly, and then you know, you find yourself going, I think somebody might be offended there, and then I and then I'm trying to fix that, but we don't. We don't always have time, you know. So it's it's that's why it's a tough industry, totally tough to create trust, tough to

not take things personally. And everybody in every department, from you know, the set to the makeup to the dialect coach like, we're there because we're obsessed with the thing that we're there for and ideally also have a sense of the whole, but not always, you know, Well, it's kind of to be weirdly obsessed with the one thing that we're there for. Absolutely and then I think the director's job in many situations is the inclusivity of all, right,

so bringing your particular passion to the whole. And I enjoy that. I like that because I'm surrounded by creative artists who are passionate. What you're painting the picture of is leadership, right, I mean, that's what we're really talking about here, And leadership in I don't know, I guess a more stereotypically female way entails that there is a sense of empowering other people, that they're making them feel appreciated, that you're making sure that they feel like they have

a voice. And then ultimately decisions have to be made. And so you know, you can't obviously make everybody happy in every moment, but hopefully you're making them happy overall because they feel like they're part of something bigger, exactly. And I've I've been fortunate to work for men who operated exactly that way too, you know, and those have been guides for me as well. And you know, I've

been working in television for four years straight. That is crazy because it seems like longer, and also because you're doing amazing or thank you the majority of of who I've worked for and with our men and on great projects the Americans, Watchmen, Billions, I mean, just robust, fantastic storytelling of late There are more women to work for in drama, which is exciting, And these last two pilots were with women, with Jana Fattory Megan Abbott on Deremy

and then Marja Lewis Ryan on Hellwards. So it's very exciting and it is interesting to be working with women who I think do have in general, and I towards hiring more women and diversifying and then working with you know, tradition really or I'm generalizing, but you know, more feminine traits. Sure, I think they do show up. What do you mean, well, nurturing and I think there's all sides to that that

can mean. You know, like you said, ultimately, you can't make everyone happy, right, and women have to really I think stick to our guns in a way that in a way that's still challenging because we we haven't always been given the opportunity to be the final word on things, the absolutely final word. The buck stops here. This woman is fully in charge of this project. So I feel like a lot of skills that we've by, We like

the ancestors of us. Yeah, have developed our persuasion skills because we're not the final say that's right, and you know, and maybe and I'm still working with all of these ideas. This is all just part of, you know, kind of a learning curve. And you know, I guess watching how women work with emotion differently because it's been a different kind of tool for us. I guess you could say the way you're saying persuasion is different. Really it's about power.

Where do we find our power in a landscape that has not doesn't entitle us too much power? In certain environments, there's no assumption that we're going to have power, So how do we sit in our power? So how do you sit in your power? Stuff? Well, I'm working on that, you know, I'm watching women around me and I'm getting

inspired and I'm what do you notice? Ease to be at ease with oneself and one's level of knowledge and experience, accepting there's of course room to grow, but sort of owning the hard work that one has done up until this point. And you know, really, I guess it's a it's a cliche less fear of failure, you know, sort of like this is who I am, Take me or leave me. I think that's been a scary thing for me because you know also that I mean, I guess this town can make you feel like, well, what do

you need me to be right now? Albeit give me this up tunity, I'll be what you need me to be, you know. And I'm just getting older and working more you start to think, well, you know, what can this do for me as an experience, and what can I do for them? And like it's not just what projects are looking that I can fit myself into, but also what type of projects do I want to be exactly. That's a constant conversation internally and with with my peers.

I think we're all figuring that out. And also, like the times continue to change absolutely, and it's so inspiring. I see things changing rapidly, you know, the type of artists that are being appreciated, the women coming into their power and starting to lead and support other women artists. And you know, I think of Lena Wave like immediately, that's who's producing the show that I'm on right now? Really yeah, right, I mean, she took her success and

now she is really making things happen. It's just incredibly inspiring and I get really buzzed about that. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like we're like, oh, there's a paradigm that could be shifting. Let's just um, not just to shift, let's shift it. Let's just do it, and let's do

it consciously. And there's still a real problem. But I will say on the L word, Marjah was incredibly adamant about diversity hiring the show runner and showrunner for people listening means the person who's in charge of the writer's room, yes and more, and really the overall kind of boss

of the series at large. And I'd be coming up with and we can talk about prep and you know what we're doing in prep, but I'd be coming up with sort of the visual you know, participation in casting, participation in everything that launches the world that we're gonna

put this show in. But we were so interested in diversity as we were hiring, and we really confronted the lack everywhere, just of lists that would come to us from different you know, it's that internal kind of Hollywood conversation like where and then we but we found people and I saw it at work, you know, truly sifting the balance. And uh, I'm starting to see that more

and more. I was reading from Lyndy West's new book called The Witches Are Coming, and she has an essay about sort of the responsibility that Hollywood might or might not have after Weinstein, And what I love about it is that she's not actually just talking about in terms of hiring, but she's actually talking about the stories that we tell. Yes, um, and so I'm going to read this quote of hers and maybe we can talk about it.

She says. To make that reckoning stick, the reckoning of the me too movement, we have to look ahead and ask ourselves what we want of this new Hollywood, and look back to avoid repeating the past. Show Business could very well help us get out of this mess, but not if we fail to examine how it helped us get into it. Hollywood is both a perfect and a bizarre vanguard in the war for culture change. Perfect because

its reaches so vast, it's influenced so potent. Bizarre because television movies are how a great many toxic ideas embed themselves inside us in the first place, No matter how much lips are as we pay tweet quality and progress, how many mantras about loving ourselves and one another. How many inspirational memes we churn out to counteract the message. The basist culture, the culture that sells, the culture we're used to, is still there on screen, showing us how

people are supposed to look and talk and fuck. Mm hmm. That's great, right. And I thought of you when I was reading that, because of the projects that you're working on now. I mean, you just did watch Man, you just did the L word. It feels like this is the new vanguard. I mean, this is the attempt to say we can't just tell the same stories and make hiring different. I hope and must believe that that's the case, and I am choosing projects with that in mind. What

are we really saying here? And when I write somewhat and when I think about what I want to write, I think about that I've always thought about message And this denial that we do internalize these messages is is like denying climate change. We do internalize what we see on these screens. This is our campfire now, this is the wisdom that has passed to us from these screens.

And I do feel responsibility. I also feel like when I give, I give a d and of myself I want to believe that I'm putting something into the world that is good for humanity, is for positive growth in some way. You're not always right. You do your best to feel that out, you know, but um, yeah, I really hope. So I hope that's right. And I mean, we still have a long way to go to kind of recognize our shadow as a race, as a as humans.

Watchman is really asking questions, and l Ward is really looking at shame, and you know, Daremy is looking at you know, sort of. I mean, Megan Abbot is brilliant in so many ways. But the feminism isn't just about heroic women. It's about all women. It's about flaw, it's about intent, it's about friendship and the flip side of friendship, how women treat each other, and you know, it's it's everything.

And also, like, what even is female heroism? Like it doesn't require that it's sort of that masculine sense of heroism where like one person is in charge of some revolution. That's right, that's right. What is female power? What does it look like? So? What does it look like? Stuff? Obviously it's sort of it's it's comically too big of a question, but it is also literally the point of this podcast is what does female power look and sound like? I feel like we don't have um, it's not that there.

It isn't there, right we we we all have people in our own lives and people certainly that we can look at in Congress right now who are who are lighting the way, but we don't necessarily have like the language to sort of talk about it in the place to collect the stories. And there is this sort of

modern notion. And I would love to ask that question to a twenty year old you know, really speak it please, because I know from me there was a there was a notion of I guess the powerful woman that was kind of the having it all, like a little bit of the capitalist dream that we had with men in the fifties, right that you would kind of come back from the war and get a house and get a wife and get two kids and have a great job and you know, great vacations and for my generations, like

you as a woman can have all that too. You can have the kids and the job and the and as I've worked in a career that is fourteen hours a day, and I know you know the same. You know, you just start to go, well, actually it's not all quite possible in the way I idealized it, and I actually feel exhausted and depleted and I feel less empowered

by all these things I'm trying to accomplish. So in a way, for me, it's self realization, whatever that looks like for you, and getting away from a sort of social pressure normalized, you know, heteronormal ideal that we have to realize we kind of inherited it was you can

have it too, what's it for you? And what was a response to, like sort of elbowing our way in so that we could have the same dream the men were sold right, Although you know, having a family and having a good job is sort of a general desire of course, but I think, I think, I think a lot about that, and women I admire are sort of seem to be structuring all that for themselves, truly, for themselves to self realize what they really want, which could be not having it all or what or total definition

of what it all is. There's a woman I grew up with who you know, I think she volunteered abroad, like she stayed abroad, she still works in like, you know, just defining success for yourself and power. This feels like it's really about giving ourselves permission to look at what the rules are that we were handed down and say, like, who you to these rules? What if we break them? A? What do we want? But be can we get it by like putting a critical eye on those things that

seemed like they were hard and fast rules. I mean from the vast like you're talking about in terms of how we structure our lives and whether or not we go for you know, trying to buy a house in this amazing l a climate um and having children and all these massive questions, but also just the tiny, the tiny things like literally how much emotion are we allowed

to bring into work? I was just gonna say, I think we got kind of macro there, but ultimately, yeah, it's like there's almost like I feel like sometimes we feel trip wires, right, Like I can be powerful in this way, but I can't be powerful in this way. For example, anger like anger just we don't really get to be angry, or at least that's again I don't

give myself permission to be angry. That cuts off a whole range of feelings and then we're sort of we're just perpetuating that a woman can be a great leader, but if she gets angry once, she's crazy. But I think using anger for focus, for fire, for passion, directing different emotional range to your purpose. You know, we were encouraged in some ways and we're discouraged. And we've been

discouraged in so many ways from young ages. I mean from a young ageoshold, I'll be a great mom, so straight to nurturing, and you know, certain kinds of outbursts just did not look good on me, did not look good on a girl, right, And I just I think they're seen as power. They can be seen as power in young boys and as really disturbing in young girls. Okay, we're going to talk more about this coming up. Yes, Okay, so we're bad. We were just talking during a little

break about the reality of how impossible this is. I mean, the quote unquote double bind of like you have to be strong, but you have to be likable. It shows up in these ways where we can all say, as women who are finding our way into power late thirties, early forties, whatever, where maybe moms for the first time, where maybe leaders for the first time, and we're saying like, oh, funck, now my version of leadership. What's it going to sound like?

What rules can I truly break? Because I'm in the position where like I could fucking break them and I and I won't, you know, there won't be repercussions. And then there are people get fired in this town all the time. And I have found and my question to you, I guess is here's a way that a stereotype tends

to show up for female directors. There's a lot of middle aged I'm just gonna say, schlubby white men who hang out on sets because they have their whole lives and it's an entire department of say three or four people who are all the description I just gave and who have never, by the women in their lives or by their work context, been asked to become more evolved

as time moves forward. And then female directors end up on their shows, right, and they have really basic level like she's going to mess it up opinions, and then they're just looking for the confirmation that their worldview doesn't need to evolve. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I'll say is I that is going to change, and that

is changing. And I now go to interviews or pitches or you know, think about how I would hire and I think we are thinking about where will I find as a female director a great deal of support for the whole me, you know, the meat that has the vision, the collaborator me, the meat that's going to get frustrated, the meat that's gonna but god, am I gonna do my best at every turn? But can I also do

that while taking care of myself? And I think they're more and more of us getting in, and there are more and more of us looking for that environment and

then looking to create that environment. It's like it's really the new Hollywood is less about hiring individuals who look or define themselves a certain way, and more about hiring people regardless of how they look or who they are, who are going to enter into it with the sense of good faith and who want to bring like their masculine and feminine energies in easily, who are interested in

like not cutting off parts of themselves. That's right, and I think that is generationally just the you know, the sort of stereotypical you know, teamster dude. I mean, I love teamsters, but and they're all actually many of them are very evolved. But as you say, that that guy with all those sexist views, who's gonna, you know, set set himself up to believe that the female director that comes on set is going to fail. He's aging out

right now. So we can only hope trying to not like have a celebratory look at the face, because they are humans too, and they are products of their They are products that we cannot make it personal about anybody because everyone is a product of how they've been, you know, socialized by the industry. So speaking of what a segue, tell me about your socialization, Now tell me about your upbringing in arms of finding your voice. You decided pretty early on to be a director. You went to film

school in your twenties. What did that look like in terms of knowing what you wanted to do and how you wanted to lead. I was always bossy. I was a big sister, I'm alio, you know all those ingredients, right, But I don't think I saw a lot of women leaders early on. It's like the you know, the typical story. I was in the drama program at high school. My teacher was female. She saw something in me and my ability to to sort of block and plan short plays.

So I entered Northwestern as a theater major, to maybe direct, maybe stage manage. I didn't know what what exactly I wanted to do, and I didn't even realize you could

study film and television. And then I studied film. I transferred over and I first I produced and I killed myself raising money for a music video that a guy to direct, and I watched him direct, and I watched the choices he was making with, you know, kind of the hard earned, backbreaking support we had all given him, and I just felt kind of bummed out and I felt a little bit betrayed by the process. You know, I felt like, gosh, you know, I worked so hard.

I don't feel like he cares at all about what I have to say. And I don't know if I believe in this vision that we're what moment, I mean, what a shitty moment in the moment, Yeah, it was in a way that that's why the worst things I mean not that that was the worst thing that got but you know, the things you realize you don't want to do are very valuable, especially as a young person.

So then I decided I wanted to be a director, but I was always apprehensive about the industry, the Hollywood industry, and it's part of why I really developed this independent film maker career. And I stayed in Ireland for so long I just felt more support, autonomy, kind of intimacy and trust with the people I was working with, and so I kept making work over there. I'm really interesting because I also feel like I've felt a very strong pull with this podcast to specifically, at least for now,

focus on American culture. And you know, a solution for handling the you know, flaws of American culture is certainly to be LIKEE, see you later. And I also would come back here and kind of and I would get discouraged. Even after the Oscar nomination in two thousand eight, I came to l A and had meetings. They were all with men producers, and I mean it wasn't even gendered. In my mind, I just did not feel a great deal of hope or inspiration when I would kind of

drop into l A and look around. What are those meetings entail? I mean, what was your experience? My experience of them was the feeling of it's not enough, You're not enough yet kind of thing. Come back when you have your Sundance film, Come back when you had the next Oscar nomination. Yeah, well it was a short, which I told myself also, it was before this moment. You know,

where where now? I think if you you know, if you were here trying to be a female director for the past fifteen years, you get to talk a lot more than I do about the real struggle. You know, the real the real struggle that nobody would address, that you knocked on doors, that you kept coming at it, and if you're working now, that is so correct and keep going, you know. And I want for those women to really get what they've been waiting for and deserve

because I sort of was not. I didn't expose myself to it. I wasn't sounds like you kind of saw the writing on the wall when you had those meetings and like, this doesn't seem like a path. Yeah. I loved the country I was in. I felt supported, and you know, I came when I was ready, and I came at a time where television is just exploding, and

I found my place in it. I mean, television is a great place to cultivate your leadership because you are suddenly working with new people every couple of months, potentially with incredible scope, budget and responsibility. So yeah, you snap into let's do this right. You know, whether you're dealing with difficult personalities or you're just having to be decisive and you don't know the decision yet. What's your personal way of sort of shutting out the noise and figuring

out what you want. I guess there's two ways my process works. One is intuitive decision making, like you just got to feel it and go because you are you literally have two minutes to make the decision right. And that means literally listening to something that isn't your brain. Yes exactly, you just sort of feel something and it probably is your brain. It's your it's your you know,

it's your synapses that like know what to do. And I think I love directing in part because I like that um flow, that creative flow where things just feel like they're just coming. You don't know where from, but

they're coming. And then the other side, I plan and visualize and research a lot so that when i'm a lot of new ideas are coming at me, I sort of have my my firm center and I can sort of weigh those ideas against what I'm thinking or with what I'm thinking, and do they support do they confuse. I mean a lot of um, A lot of storytelling for me is whose perspective is this? Even though that's

a really cool shot idea. You know, dps are famously will pitch you these like Okay, we come up over the building and we swoop down and you know, and it's kind of I feel like my job to go whose perspective are we and what are we feeling while that's happening? Or are we just feeling the exhilaration of the shot, which sometimes is great, But it's that it's

that emotional mind, it's the storytelling mine. It's continually taking it back to those questions, which which is I'm sure a lot of what you do and that an actor may obsess over saying a syllable or avowal correctly, and you may take them back to a story place and ultimately everyone kind of wants to be in that story place, character place. My favorite example of that is that, especially

English is the second language. Actors which I work with a lot, will have will have noticed that, like, for example, the word what do we have? Do we use it? T? Or don't we write? We Americans quote unquote right? What what? Right? They're both options, and they'll say, do I put a T on that or don't tie? And I'm like, depends what do you want? What do you want? What do you want? What's at stake? And I think it is also the argument for an idea that you can't debate.

So let's say everyone's people are coming at you with ideas. If you say, no, I don't want that, that's not what I want. Okay, that doesn't add anything to the conversation. It doesn't. People just feel denied, and that's where disappointment sets in. Like we were talking about earlier, if I say I love that idea, but I feel like the character would be coming actually, because they'd be coming from the outside in. Let's have that first action be this

taking out the jet whatever you know. It's like you you ground back to character and story, also showing your work when you're thinking that out loud, yes, and so

they there's trust that's built. And then and then they when they do the same thing, like I love nothing more than a props person coming to me and saying, I know this is what's in the script, but I did all this research and this is actually the item you know, and that's there contribute you know, And I think if I expect to be listened to for the depth of my research, knowledge, intuition, instincts, I have to do the same. When there's time in prep, you know,

and we can we can really weigh things up. But I I do notice. I'm just gonna bring it back to I know what your your expertise, which is that I have. I will stop breathing, I can. I will notice that I haven't taken a deep breath in like four hours on set. My voice will get high if I'm emotional, you know, And and then but then in

trying to control that, you get more tight. So I think all these things are fast dating in relationship to power, articulation and communication, because these things only work when I have a somewhat even keel emotionally. I have to stay in that emotionally balanced place to be able to communicate authentically like that. And part of the depletion and fatigue is when I'm doing all that but I'm actually feeling

so much more. And also, how do you listen to I'm going back to thing number one, right, how do you listen to your instincts when you've sort of cut yourself off from them? Totally either because fourteen now or days do do a number on you in terms of sleep and all of that stuff, but also literally in the moment, if the stakes feel too high in your body is responding to the stakes and not to the content.

That's right, and where is the effort. The effort should be, you know, in the creativity piece and the story piece, and you know it's thoughtful planning, but the effort sometimes it's just in holding back the slew of true emotion that you're feeling or I guess, passion, fire, all these things.

You know that balance is part of the dance. In this sort of advice place that we're at right now, tell me about how you prepare a pitch, because whether it's for a pilot of a TV show, or it's for a product, or it's for an idea to your boss. You know, a lot of us find ourselves in positions where we have to do that um where we have to say, like, here's my take on a thing, take me seriously, and also I'm flexible, and also you know,

I'm a yeah, I'm just thinking of this. But dancing is a good metaphor in a way or a visual because are you dancing for you or them. You know you have to first, I think, really really read the script, look at the project, look at your if you're selling a project, watch it in your mind totally for you, like, truly, what are you what are you going to do with this? What are you want to do with this? What do you want to see? How would you want to make it?

Before you even start thinking about what they want to hear or what they need to hear, or how you need to present. And that is a tricky balance. I think I often am jumping back and forth to Okay, well I see I see it this way, but they would maybe want to hear it this way. But this is so valuable because I often think about how sometimes what stops us from really finding sort of the joy and the fire is that we are thinking too much how what do they think of me? And use It's

useful to think what do they really need? And what how am I bringing what they need? But you're reminding me that there's this first part, which is also what is the pleasure that this is for me? You absolutely have to think about all that what do they need to hear? How do they need to hear it? But that's not the first step, and it's really easy to forget. I'm saying it because I'm constantly reminding myself of that.

And I think also any writer will say, you know, they first have to go to a very safe space for themselves to really create the material in relationship with themselves. You know, that is just the first step. So you know, giving yourself the kind of gift of your own very

internal process first, creatively first and foremost. Then then yes, it's like, okay, how do I And it's once you have that and that feels very firm and strong, it's it's so much easier to think about how to present it, right, because if you were doing a book report and you had the book already, you could start to figure out how to present that book report because the book is there, right.

I mean, the whole point of communication is that there's another person, or there's another mass of people or something. So to say that, wait, the first step of communication is actually our relationship with ourself. That's pretty valuable. I think. So I want to go into a room and I want to communicate back that I that I really feel and see the story, and here's what I either. If I'm reading a script. Here's what, here's how it starts. It feels like this, then it goes to here I'm

talking about the arc. I'm basically just feeding back that I read the script you actually sent me and I felt deeply for it, right, and here's why. And then and then you want to go into all these times.

You can read a million things online that coach you on like ways to talk about tone and ways to talk about comparisons, and but ultimately, I think I guess deeper than that, what you're doing is is sort of saying, I really know how I would make this, and you're finding clear ways to communicate that so that they can go, oh wow, I really really see her version. I really see her movie? Is it the movie I want to make?

In finance? And you can't control, you know, because what I think otherwise the risk is I sold a vision of a movie that I don't really deeply feel, and they bought it, and now I have to make it and I'm actually kind of disconnected. Now maybe you could then like pour yourself into that version, but you're sort of reverse engineering if it happens that way, if you sell the thing you thought they wanted, and now you're responsible for delivering it, you know. So that's the broad strokes.

I mean, you know, tone are all the pieces of a pitch lucky position of getting to hang out with you right before you pitched the L word and um and reflected back some of the things I was hearing, which was honestly a gift for me. It's great for me. What stands out is you were struggling with how to sort of find your way into talking about this version compared to the last version of the L word, which had had an impact on you, but you weren't sure how to talk about it except to say that it

was great basically. Yeah. The personal piece, it's hard actually to take right without kind of going off on some personal we tell our story is something that comes up, especially when I'm working with politicians. How do we put the eye into it without feeling like we're a bragging

or be boring people with our personal lives. I sometimes would say, I don't know where to stop or start, like there's so much there feels like too much, right, And I asked you one pointed question that was like, really, where were you when you watched the first version of the L word, and you you're one sentence response brought in that you were abroad, brought in that you were in film school, and brought in that you didn't know you were gay yet, but that you saw something on

that screen that made you think I want that life. So it ended up being I mean, you're you know, sort of quick response to me ended up being the story. That's right, that's true, and you helped me see that I didn't know how to talk about all that stuff. And it also felt, you know, the personal has to be part of our our pitch and our story as an artist. It just is you have to find a way of weaving it in for yourself. Two. And that's

a hard place for me. Definitely, Definitely. I I can default to like, well, I'm just going to do a good job and you're not going to know I have feelings. Yep, yeah, you're not going to know. I'm a person. I'm a robot. I'm really creative. I'm a creative robot. But you can turn on and turn me off. That's right, that's right. And I will not emotionally because I'm so afraid of

being emotionally burdensome to someone. I think you know what I mean, I think that's that's uh a fear women have sometimes of just being that that that that won't help them to bring those into the room, and they don't. They often don't help them, I know from being the boss and receiving interesting Yeah, I mean you have to be so careful I think when you when you bring in personal stuff to your work environment. You know, I think that especially in film, it's such an intimate it's

such an intimate setting. You know, they're just they're do have to be boundaries. So it's learning how to use your story and your which contains emotion, you know, but direct channel and channel it into your work in a way that remains professional and powerful. Speak King of personal What did it feel like to work on the l words specifically? I mean, I think we're it's just we're talking about representation, and we're talking about the screen as a mirror, and we're talking about how when we see

ourselves represented, we like ourselves better, we can respect ourselves more. So. I think the push to represent as many types of people as possible, and I think this is happening at every you know, people who aren't size six, people of color, people who identify as in a range of gender identities. I mean, I think it is a push for representation that we're all talking about, and and that representation used to mean, like in the nineties, representation meant literally one

person who looks that way, check great. And now we're talking about the nuance of actual lived experience for me, and for me that's perspective. And who makes that show, Whose voice is that show, whose voice is the story, who's telling that story? Is that story authentically from the person who should be telling that story and representing that character? And did you have any stuff during l word, specifically when you were like, well, that doesn't ring true or

that doesn't feel right. I was. I had more moments of like, oh my god, that's so true, you know, holy sh it, oh god. I felt like that, like I've I'm not. I felt like all the ways that culture had never shown me back some things that I felt. I feel a real sense of gratitude for being involved, for exposing me to myself more two parts of myself I may have hidden from myself, And I do wonder I think, like, what would it have been like to

see that as a thirteen year old, fifteen year old? Okay, we're gonna be back in just a minute with the person stuff is brought in for us to hear. Okay, we are back with stuff, and we're going to find out whose voice she brought in for us. Steph, who have you been thinking about when you asked this question? I immediately thought of my Angelo. I cannot think of a voice I'd rather listen to. Yeah, yeah, I have a beautiful clip from her I could have chosen earlier

in her life. She has this absolutely stunning performance on YouTube of her still I Rise poem, which everybody should check out all link to it. But you specifically pointed me towards an interview she did later in her life. Uh, and we're gonna listen to a little tiny bit of it right now. I learned by the time I was eight that I loved the human voice. I loved it, the actual sound of the voice speaking words. It just

means the earth to me, still does singing spoken. They help us to distinguish ourselves from each other and with each other, and help us to know where we really are on this wayward floating motive matter in the universe. I'm gonna cry like every time. I mean, she's absolutely stunning. When I listened to Dr Maya Angelo. I found out it's called She. She pronounced Angelo in this thank you, this piece, I mean think it's a lesson for all of us. Um, when I think about her, I think

about this thing. I've said for years that your voice reflects your life experience, which you know, I say because

it's true. But we when we listen to somebody, especially in the later part of their life, talking like this, you know what we hear in her voice, everything from her accent, which surely shifted throughout her life and is surely a collection of everywhere that she's lived, including you know, she spent some time in Egypt and Ghana, and that doesn't necessarily even mean that you pick up the accent of those places as much as you go through the

experience of needing to be understood in a foreign land. And what that is to realize that the words that you're saying require, you know, a heightened level of communication and makes make sure that you're not misunderstood, Um when the culture is so different. And then obviously there's this pace that she has that we can all learn from that not only suggests a lack of arms and a general appreciation of language, which I'm going to talk about as well, but also a real sense that I'm trying

to do it myself now. I'm noticing a real sense that the way that her authority comes out is in knowing that she has the floor, and that is something that most of us are still grappling with. And part of the reason I was looking back actually at the still I Rise poem is it's from a lot longer ago that performance of hers, and I wanted to find it's hard to find on YouTube, but I wanted to

find something from her even much much much earlier. But you know, she she's a PhD. She's she's been in positions of power for a very long time, or she was rather by the time she died, And so I wonder what, you know, the experience was of getting there. But but when we all got to know her internationally, she already was at the point where you know, clearly

in every example we have, she doesn't use ums. And and the reason we do ums is because we're saying, I'm still collecting my thought and please let me keep the floor. And so then the other half of it, which you know, you and I were talking about in the break, is the content of what she's saying here is her love of language, but that also comes out in the form and the fact that every single word

feels like it's unwated and is done justice right. And for someone to have come up through, you know, the levels of trauma that she did and to have gotten to that point, I think it is part of what people respond to in her. So just the act of like opening her mouth and talking. Besides what's coming out, the act of the way that she talks makes people say, maybe I can do that too, maybe I can get to that point. And we hear all of that in

her voice. What do you think is that why it sounds It's like it feels like every time she speaks, it's it's speech, it's a poem, it's a song, it's has rhythm, it has power. I think paces it's so true, there's a confidence. Yeah yeah, and I'm trying not to use yeah yeah and just let myself pause at the stuff. But yeah, I mean, the word aspirational doesn't even cover this completely. It's it's an interesting lesson because you know, it is earned for her, and prior to that, I'm

sure it didn't feel that way. I mean, I'm god I wish I could ask her about She talks a lot about publicly, or to put in past tense, which is very depressing. She spoke publicly a lot about the fact that she didn't talk for five years in her youth and then read voraciously throughout. But but and what that was to come out of her self imposed silence, and what version of her you know, was was alive then compared to this version of her that we that

we you know, have captured much more. And that makes me think about listening as how she partially how she learned to speak, you know, because reading constantly and listening

constantly for five years, you know, completely. And yeah, I said in an earlier podcast, the other half of permission to speak is permission to listen her permission to be quiet, right, permission to be quiet, because I guess there's a feeling that I think you're so right that please let me keep the floor, please please hear me, please see me. There can be a desperation in that that actually drains your power. And she talks all about I mean, courage

comes up, courage to not talk all the time. I mean also in public speaking, like in a in a more technical way. This comes up as the power of the pause, which is also another way of saying, don't use them so much. But the power of the pause is something that it's hard. You have to practice, and you have to practice knowing that that one thing you just said is going to land well enough that you don't have to fill in the pause that's about to ensue with a try again, and to try again and

to try again. That's hard, and also part of what's hard about it is the courage part of it. The other part is that it may not be the case. You may actually need to rephrase what you just said because it didn't land, and you may be actually picking up with like your spidy set that the audience isn't with you. So it's not like the pause is always the right answer. But if we never use it, we'll

never know. How do I how do if I said I want to you know, there's my you know, I want to just cultivate stronger qualities in my speaking, pausing, listening. How do I be like my not um you know, have her life experience. No, what you're really what what we're really saying? What I'm what I My real answer

is you must sound like staff? You must sound like the strongest and most love yourself version of Staff and that is for all of us obviously, um, but my other aunts, because there really wasn't to mya before my you know there there's no there's no one even close. No. But also but also that she probably didn't have the perfect uh you know, archetype to emulate, and that just

wasn't the point. And she said, you, I'm going to probably butcher this, but you can't do better till you know better, right right about her own evolution and change, which has now become like an Oprah is m because I think she said it too Oprah and over was like, well, that's a good one. She's a huge inspiration to Oprah. Who is you know, such an inspiration to so many. Yeah, but there you go, I mean, And and also really,

you know, um, I'm sure that there were there. There clearly were people in Maya's life who were those you know, archetypes of power to her. She talks about her grandmother's talks about her uncle Willie. I imagine it was not in a way where where what she thought was I want to sound like them. I think it was really I want to sound like the most like profound version

of myself exactly. And the other half of your question is for people who do want to work on what it would be like to umless or fill in the blank. I mean, it doesn't have to be UM. It can be you know, or it can be uh, not just a tick of phrase, but like a way that we continue to fill in silence. I think the best thing there is two things. One acknowledge that there's going to be an element of self consciousness going into this. You

cannot avoid that. And self consciousness does not have to equal paralyze paralyzation A. So just just know that for yourself, be um, record yourself and listen back. And no one likes to look you know, disclaimer, no one likes to listen to the sound of their voice. And that's like a culturally agreed to pump thing. I'd love to change it.

I'd love everyone to just decide. Maybe I do. Maybe it's just a learning tool, Maybe it's just you know, it's one of the things, like the way my hands work, that is a communication unit, and I should and I

should embrace it. But I just want to say that when we listen back to ourselves, we can start to notice what those things are and maybe even say the same phrase that we said when we were making that recording for ourselves telling you know, some story or telling something about our past, and try saying the same thing but without the in between sounds and just feel that discomfort, because getting better at not saying um is about getting

better with feeling that discomfort and not doing anything about it. That is such good advice and we all can do that now with our iPhone. Voice Memo is like that the app that shows up on everybody's Apple phone, regardless of if you want it, because how often do you speak to people say do they know what they sound like? And then it's like, do I know what I sound like? It's really good? Well, And the other thing is, you know, talk to friends, get reflections from people, work with a

voice coach, whatever. But the stuff that that we can feel empowered to do on our own, there is just that little hurdle over the top of the self consciousness aspect of it and the you know, opinions that are going to come up about your own voice. But if you're serious about you know, wanting to evolve your voice in some way, like let's be honest, those are things we can handle, they will feel icky. Light a candle,

trust yourself. Know that, like you know, we all this is like such a universal that our voice feels different, our voice, it sounds different on the outside than it sounds in our own head. That is anatomy, you know. I mean, how many people listen to their own voicemail message, you know, twelve times before they stick with one yeah, and then end up with one that doesn't sound anything like us, because we're like this one sounds the most like somebody that I would want to hear. Hello, you've

reached Steph Green. I don't know what business you are promoting, right, Sometimes you hear people's voicemail and you that sounds nothing like that. I might be guilty of that. Now that we're saying this, I should go back and listen and record like the most authentic version of my voice, the most profound quote unquote tomorrows end up for yourself version of your voice. It is. It is a thing. It is a thing. Steph. Thank you for bringing in Dr

Maya Angelo. Thank you for teaching me more about her incredible voice. Oh my god, I'm always happy to think about her. Thank you. Thank you to Steph Green for

coming in. You can find out more about her in the show notes or on our website Formission to Speak pot dot com, where you can also go right now and send me any questions you have about your own voice, any feedback from these episodes, anything that doesn't make sense or doesn't feel like it fits for you, anything that's coming up during this bizarro quarantine time in terms of using zoom or you know, Instagram Live, or any any sources that you're using for getting your own voice out there.

Let's talk. We're gonna do a mail bag episode coming right up, and I want to answer as many questions as I can about what's really going on with you, with your voice, with your sense of power, and how all those things interconnect, because we need good people in power now. Guys like right now. Also feel free to send d M s or voice memos to our Instagram a Permission to Speak pod, where we're posting a bunch

of content and please join the community. Thanks as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I Heart Radio, to Megan Read, to my family and cohort, and to all of you. We're recording this podcast in the I Heart Radio studios in Hollywood on land that used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit U S d A C dot us to learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive produced by

Katherine Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen on the ihart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.