Neelamjit Dhaliwal

can do to support them. I feel a human obligation to do more than shout at seven pm or repost articles online. I wear a mask. I actively make sure my children wear masks. I donate to causes that support their work. When people say ignorant things like the pandemic isn't real, I actively speak up and out for the

people who are risking their lives every day. I don't believe the e R doctor needs me to understand what it was like to go through medical school, to take on extreme amounts of student debt, to feel the weight of responsibility when a patient's life rests in your hands, To know that you can't spend time with your family because of the work you were called to do. How could I understand, but what I do know is that there are ways within my power to support those people.

Welcome to the podcast. That's all about the voice, which means it's all about power. Who has it, how we get it, how we sound when we have it. I'm your host, Samarave, and this is permission to speak, where we can throw all our best ideas about how to get ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest is my friend nil Um Geet Dolly Wall. She's a social justice facilitator through the National Seed Project, which I

will link to in the show notes. This means that she trains leaders and educators and now through activist organizations and through the Jane Club, which is women's core space in Hollywood that's got a very robust online program during the pandemic, so anybody around the country or world can joined by the way through places like that, she trains anyone who takes her workshops on how to do the work to make the world more just. And that's what this episode is about. How do we speak up to whom?

What do we say? How do we handle how uncomfortable it feels the systems? You know, um, white supremacy patriarchy, capitalism are massive and not our fault, but we do uphold them in all kinds of like super sneaky ways, most of us without knowing it, and that's on us to go from not knowing to knowing, and then from

knowing to doing to speaking to dismantling. I wanted to have Neil jeed on because she's so clear and intentional around this work, and because frankly, she's the person in my own life who offers herself professionally as a resources for all of us with all of our awkward questions and discomfort and growing pains around this work. I hope this conversation is useful. This is Neon Jeet jet Hi. Thank you for joining, Thank you for joining us, Thank you for me. Okay, So we're going to talk about

social justice work, which is what you do. Um. Yeah, and Samara speaking of social justice, is it okay if I begin by acknowledging the land? Yes? Please, I'd like to begin and open our time together by acknowledging the land that I'm sitting on, which is the land of the tongue of a tribe, the traditional custodians and their elders past and present. I have to begin by acknowledging and thanking my ancestors who paved the way for me

to be able to take this journey. And I also have to thank my l rs and all the people who have taught me along the way. And most especially I need to thank my partner, my husband, Mark, and my sister, my best friend, my twenty. Without the two of them in particular, I don't think this work would be possible. So I really want to name that because you know, this work takes a lot of support. And my pronouns are she hear hers and thank you? Thank you. My pronouns are she hear her so as well so

social justice training. Um yeah, I mean you know my path a little bit. I was an educator, I was a math teacher before and um, how I found myself doing this work is I went and got trained by the National Seed Project back in two thousand twelve, and so since then I've been leading these seminars um around helping people understand how sy stomach oppression operates. And the heart of seeds model is storytelling. So it's basically we we're really asking each other, like, are you willing to

be changed by my experience? Um. And one person that comes to mind is my friend Lauren Whitney, and she made this video called when did My Black Baby Become a Threat to You? And it was in response to just the cumulative impact of all the black lives lost, but particularly I think when George Floyd was murdered. And it's a really powerful video. But again it invites us in to consider how am I going to be changed

by her story? What is my responsibility? She's giving me her story, I'm holding it, what am I going to do with it? Yeah, I'm so thrilled she made that, and UM, I'll link to it in the show notes. It's also on our social feed And so now, so I've taken those workshops and kind of taking them out of an educational setting and brought them to my current place of employment, the Chain Club, and also places in which I volunteer or my activists networks, and what are

the challenges when you're not working with educators anymore? But just you know whoever shows up at your workshops in these social or activism spaces. There's this great quote I love. UM it's by UH an educator. Her name is Judy Logan, and she says, close the door and change the world. So you have the opportunity in your classroom to really it's to change lives. And I think a lot of educators, I'll speak for myself that is is such a um an honor but a huge responsibility. And so I think

as an educator we take it really seriously. So when you come to the work, you bring a level of vulnerability and honesty and a willingness to really kind of step into it um because you you understand what's at risk. So I think the I wouldn't say the biggest challenge, but a challenge when you transfer it outside of an education setting is that it's really hard for folks to see how they're upholding systems. That's that was hard for

teachers too, but um or parents or even students. But it's particularly so when I'm saying I'm doing it in a setting like an organizing setting, where those people are coming to the table because they consider themselves to be quote unquote woke or consider themselves to be allies, and

so they consider themselves to be good. And what does it mean to help people who see themselves in this through this lens through us a lens of kind of the liberal ideal of what it means to be in just relations with others and then recognizing that they still have work to do. So I would say that's a little bit more of a challenge. Yeah, I'm curious to hear for you what was your experience with it and what was challenging for you. Yeah, I mean I think

you you super defined me when you said that. You know, I was telling them before we started recording that I, uh, like September ish, six months ago, eight months ago, Um, there had been a workshop that you were doing at the Jain Club, UM that I was not available for for like completely legit work reasons. But also you know, one has to wonder when what one's priorities are. Uh. It's interesting how I put that in the third person, um, but it made me wonder what my priorities were because

you totally called me in. You know, you said something like noticed you weren't there at that workshop, and I felt, you know, uh, and an instant rise of defensiveness. I didn't I don't think presented to you, but inside I was like, she doesn't understand what my schedule was, like, you know. But between that and another conversation I had with a good friend of mine of color who UM was questioning and organization I was in that was too white.

That happened within the same week of each other. I finally picked up white fragility because I thought, I just I actually think I'm more woke than I am quote unquote woke, and I need tools and they're out there. You know, well, thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's important. Also, UM, what I hear when I hear that is that you know, we don't we don't come to this work arrived. And though I leave these conversations, I facilitate these conversations. I'm really creating space

for folks to do their work. And I'm still doing my work that I, as a South Asian Brown, they see women of color and also complicit in anti bilock racism, and it's particularly important for me to center that in my justice work and hold myself accountable, and also to name the ways in which the model minority myth has

been created to uphold anti black racism. And alongside that, I also have the journey of taking a look at my own internalized racism, anti Asian racism, and how that's up to me from being in authentic and just relations

with my own people. So the work never ends. And you know, I'm still learning and I have a long way to go, you know, And I think, I think that's There's this thing that my mom used to tell me when when I would talk about justice, because I would sometimes have this righteousness about my justice and my work with justice, and she would say, you know, whether you have been just to the world and those around you is not for you to determine. It will be

determined in your absence. So after I'm gone, those who have left behind will look around and say, what she committed to justice? And that's really kind of centered and grounded my work to make sure it's a lifelong practice.

And of course, you know, being a parent and thinking about the world I'm leaving behind for my children, and then of course as an educator, I used to call those kids my kids too, you know, the world that's for them, And so um, yeah, I think about what I heard from you too, is that you have you're you're on this journey now and there's so much more

that awaits you as long as you stay committed to it. Yeah. Thanks, I am um, And and I've really been trying to you know, intentionally make this space one that's for anti racism since the start, because also you know, once you see,

you can't unsee, and um, it affects everything. I mean, if we didn't have racism, we could have cured cancer right now, you know, we could have cured poverty, we could have We have no idea the world that we could be living in if we didn't have racism, if we didn't have sexism, if we didn't have you know, all these systems of oppression, what would this world be like? It makes me think of Tony Morrison's quote about how

racism is just distracting. Yes, I love that quote. Yes, it just distracts us, absolutely takes up so much of our rain in our bodies. Yeah yeah, Um, I want to talk specifically about this concept of racism for anybody listening in who's relatively new to what their place is in dismantling it basically. Um, something that was a real takeaway from me from White Fragility from Robin D. Angelo's book is that, um, there's an oversimplified version of what racism is that many of us grew up with that

racists are bad people. So you can't both be a good person and also do things that are racist that would break our brains, right, and so we just sort

of reject all of that. And so one of the things that she introduces, and she does this you know, social social justice training work as well, right, and so one of the things that she introduces to a largely white audience so that they can start to think about this is that racism is these small acts that we do that uphold systems that you know, serve us in certain ways and sometimes you don't, even as we were

just discussing, but serve us in certain ways. And I wonder if we can actually jump in and talk a little bit about that that resource that I mentioned ahead of time about how white supremacy culture shows up in our work, because this, I think is so it's so tangible when we talk about racism. One danger is, as as I just said, you know, racists are bad people, and I'm not a bad person, so I'm not the problem. That's a that's a real black and white way of

thinking about it. That is that just stops us from growing. And another part of it is, okay, if we admit we are each of us racist, because we are all breathing that air and we have since we were babies. How am I racist? And then we think does that mean being mean to people who don't look like me? Because I don't have a memory of doing that, you know. And so this document that I found when I took a feminist business school course, which happened last year, So

I guess that was maybe the beginning of me. Really it was an online course that was so much more um critical thinking in academia than I expected, and you know, as a real feminist course and not just a quote unquote white feminist. A lot of it was about white supremacy and the ways that we are perpetuating it in our work without realizing it for entrepreneurs, for maybe women business owners. Um, So I want to pull this up. I'm going to provide it as a resource in the

show notes. But um, the Characteristics of white supremacy culture. Uh. It's by Tima Okun and Kenneth Jones, and it's part of something called Dismantling Racism, a workbook for social change groups. It says, below is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture which show up in our organizations. So the first one is perfectionism. Yeah, can I share one under perfectionism,

I think is really powerful. Yes, please, making a mistake is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong, and I think that shows up a lot in institutions, and I think that that really undergrids white supremacy culture, because to do justice work is to acknowledge that we're

doing harm, we're doing wrong, we're making mistakes. But if you have an ideal of white supremacy that's upholding your institution in the form of perfectionism, you're not even going to be able to get to it because what happens is folks come to the table and you say, hey, listen, the institution is making some mistakes, it's getting them some things wrong. And people are like, oh, well, no, I'm I'm perfect, this institution is perfect. How dare you? Are

you calling me a racist? And then it becomes this debate about whether someone's good or bad. So perfectionism is directly linked to the earlier point you brought up of this good bad binary. And the question isn't whether we're good or bad. The question is to what degree are we racist? And then the question is how do we work to be anti racist? Right? How do we actually schedule in time and money and energy into improvements, Yes,

it says. One of the other bullet points says, there's little time, energy, or money to put into reflection or identifying lessons learned that can improve practice us. In other words, little or no learning from mistakes. Yes, so then the only thing only choice you have is to redefine a mistake is not a mistake exactly exactly, which just takes so much energy away from I mean, that's the distraction.

Takes so much energy away from actually doing the work, which you know would help people grow and change and probably improve their bottom line. Yes, well, come on, y'all's capitalism. And that connects right to the sense of urgency. So

I mean, all of these uphold each other. The sense of urgency I think is, um, you know, we don't have time for this, or we do have time for it, and we have to do it right away and has to be perfect and we you know, yeah, we don't have time to be you know, inclusive, or to use a decision making process that's democratic, so you know, head down and no drama anyone. And and that's the other part of doing this work is that folks kind of expect this like kumba, Yeah, now we're all friends and

we can get past this whole color thing. After you do, say like a seminar in anti bias or a seminar and racial identity U or racism or sexism or whatever it is. And the truth is you're going to be more uncomfortable afterwards than you ever were before. And how do you build that endurance for discomfort for really examining

the ways in which you are complicit? And I want to say, you know, that's a discomfort that is just second nature to folks who experience that oppression well, and that connects to another one I want to call out, which is the right to comfort. Yes, I mean I was reading this thinking about the Kabinar hearings and was like, oh, right,

this helps me understand stuff. The right to comfort, the belief that those with power have a right to emotional and psychological comfort, escapegoating those who cause discomfort, equating individual acts of unfairness against white people with systemic racism which daily targets people of color, the idea that you know,

it goes on and on. Not everybody gets to not everybody gets to be angry in your office, right, And how that shows up in the individual sense, is that you know, someone will say, this thing happened to me in the workplace. It was racist, sexist, hetero sexist, whatever the case may be, and we won't have systemic thinking cap on will have personal or interpersonal thinking head on, so we will dismiss their experience and say, this is not systemic oppression operating. This is just that one person.

They're just a little too sensitive or you know, we do all sorts of mental gymnastics. Why can't they take a joke exactly exactly? And so I mean that you're right, Kavanaugh is a perfect embodiment of that, and we the whole country got to watch it. Yeah yeah, um, okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk more about this specifically the intersections um that you're talking about here, because you know, for a lot of white ladies, we think first about the

ways that we're struggling to be taken seriously. And I absolutely center that story in this podcast. That is a part of the point of this podcast. And I also want to say that I'm including immigrants here. I'm including anybody who's queer who feels like how they come across is affecting how how seriously they're taken in spaces where they would like more power than they have, and what we can learn from some of our own experiences there

to equip us better to deal with racism. But we need to take a break first, because okay, we're back. So what I'm thinking about specifically with this question of intersectionality, UM, is if we can think about the ways that we have felt oppressed and start to gen only think of ourselves as oppressors, and what is that relationship? What is it to sort of like sit with that for a moment and then and then the next step is I

don't know what the next step is. I don't want to say the next step, but another step is, um Neil and Jeed, I know you're interested in how white people who are sort of on this journey can call in gently enough that they're heard other white people. Yeah.

So to that first piece about realizing that you uphold systems of oppression, UM, I think that the emotion that I would name is shame that comes up for a lot of people, And shame is an emotion that is, you know, shame equals I am bad, guilt, is I did something wrong, there's some agency and guilt. I can try to fix it. I can try to right or wrong. The shame is an emotion that really kind of stops

you in your tracks. And what I like to remind people is that this system was built without your consent. You were placed into it without your consent. You have been programmed in condition to operate within it without your consent as children, as teens, and then as young adults. And that's by design, that is how the system is

built to be. That's not to absolve people who hold privilege of their responsibility, but it's just to give a little space for some compassion and grace to say that, you know, you individually did not create the system overnight. It took hundreds of years to build it, and it's made invisible by design. So be patient with yourself, but also hold yourself accountable and use that feeling of my God, Am I causing harm to people? Are there things I'm

just by walking through the world? Is my very existence a problem? People start to ask themselves these really difficult questions, And what I like to say is, you know, a lot of times in this work, it's not necessarily like arriving at the answer, it's at keeping to ask the question, continuously going down that journey that reveals another question, another question, another question I think about. Are you familiar with segments

of self knowledge? So you know, there's what you know, there's what you know that you don't know, there's what you don't know you know, but my favorite is what

you don't know that you don't know. So, if you are committed to being on this path of justice, of really understanding systems of oppression, the ways in which you are either oppressed under them or the ways in which you benefit under them, the intersection of all of those, right, So, how I experience racism intersects with my religion as a sick in this country where we've experienced a lot of

um my communities experience love it, samophobia, xenophobia. So that's different from say, someone who is South Asian and not sick. So it's all intertwined and we're all we all have our work to do. That being said back to d k DK, which you don't know you don't know, that is the work that you're committed to. So you stay on this path and you continuously start to see my God, I didn't know that. I didn't know that, and dad

again is by design. So that's what I would say to folks back to your question, is to just to stay with it, to not let shame be the driving emotion. It's not sustainable to let love. I know this sounds so cliche, but to really have love lead the way. And you know, we live in a culture where we have one word for love. So what I'm talking about love is I'm talking about work. I'm talking about getting it wrong and still showing up, having so much love

for each other that we still show up. There's that Um oh, what is it? It's the the African philosophy of Ubuntu. I am because we are. There's this quote by Desmond to to my humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. So that's what

I'm talking about. That's the love I'm talking about. Um So yeah, I mean and like this is connected to my philosophy as a as a sick, as a soldier, saint as um in the tenant of charity, Gala of eternal optimism in the face of darkness, I have to believe that I could move people towards justice, that they can move me towards justice that we can both hold each other in this and move together. Now that being said,

everyone's work is different. You know. For some folks it's doing the work like I'm doing it, and for some folks it's just taking care of themselves. That is an act of resistance. But what I'm saying is long and short, is don't let shame be the emotion that drives to do this work. Let love be it. What has been your journey with finding the way that this optimism and

buoyancy and positivity that's associated with this concept. How you find that in the you know, despair of the worst, the worst aspects of you know, racial and economic inequality in this country. Absolutely, I mean, I can't point to any one thing. It's a very good question and it's a long answer, but I'll just give one one short story. My mom died two years ago. It havevistated me, It broke me. I was really close to her. I can't even really describe, like just I hadn't experienced that kind

of grief before. It was a physical grief, like my body ached. And I of course I've experienced grief and the loss of life of other folks and you know trauma, that have experienced sexual assault. It was it was really different. And I name that to say that I really want to center how hard it was, because on the other side of it is this it's the most unwelcome teacher I had, but that it did actually like deepen my joy.

And so this is a complicated thing to say because I'm I'm not saying that you know it's because I've had I've experienced such oppression that I can have such joy or that that's the journey for people. But I do know that that pain that I experienced has connected me to other people. So for instance, just this past week, we were protesting for Black Lives Matter, and this man came up and started to say all sorts of stuff, all lives matter, you're racist, Um, why don't you like

white people? And in my mind I just kept thinking, Um, you were born. At one point, you had a parent. You may be lost that parent. I know you know what grief feels like. And that not to say I didn't hold him accountable. Um, I did engage them and I said, you know, um did all the things and we won't take time for that now. But no, actually, well, I mean if you wouldn't mind sharing. I think that

this is also probably useful. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's all sorts of ways that folks are trying to um distract from the conversation. I'm not saying other lives don't matter. I'm trying to really center the fact that we live in a system that has disproportionately treated black lives like they don't matter. And so that's what that

statement is about. It's about centering that truth. I will also say Indigenous lives matter, so you know, and and that's that's like, just saying that statement is so upsetting for people that should illuminate to us the work that we have to do. That saying black lives matter upsets people so much that this man will pull over, get out of his car and come yell at a woman with like my children were with me, and so, um, I can't. Was I angry? Yes? Did I want to

punch him in the sucking phase? Yes? Um? And I had to keep reminding myself he is lost, his heart is lost, He is coming from anger, and I wonder how much of his anger is in response to his shame. Now it's not my responsibility take care of him, but I will not let him take away my love and hope for humanity to stay on this path. So that night, you know, I prayed and I said, I hope he sees it. I hope he finds justice and listen, I

can't do it. So that's why I come back to this thing of like white folksing to be doing the work, because I bet there's a white person in his life who can gently call him in and say, hey, can we talk about that all lives matter thing you keep saying, let's really break it down. And and this might be someone that loves them, It might be someone who totally disagrees with them, but because they love each other, they can stay in conversation with each other that I cannot.

I did all that I could in that moment, and that was it, and I had to walk away. Can we talk? This is connected? I think of you as somebody who really lives and models deep listening, and that's sort of what you were just talking about. And for me, I'm using that term to try to capture this sense of hearing what somebody's real concern is underneath the words, however hurtful they may be choosing. Is that something you learned that's something you teach. Yes, Yeah, active listening. I

think it's a teaching practice. And tomorrow I would say, I'm going to kick it back to you. How did you become such a good listener? I mean, you host a podcast, you listen to people who listen to their voices. It's a lot. I mean, so definitely been lifelong. Um Partly, I will say this sounds cliche, but having an acting background, the entire point of an acting training program is to get humans to read a text that is other humans talking and figure out what's happening underneath the words, What

is the motivation? What do people want when they're not saying what they want? Yeah? And you know, I didn't end up becoming an actor, but I ended up becoming a person who thinks about every human interaction in those terms. And it's also how I teach my kid. You know, if he says I want water, I say, okay, how do you That's great, that's the first thing that's the want. Now how do you ask for what you want? Right? Sort of like reverse engineering it. And actually I'll share

because I was thinking about bringing this up anyway. I think it might be useful for people. But one of the most like crystallizing moments for me in terms of how deep listening works is this exercise I picked up from a workshop I did once and I've repurposed it. But if there's person A in person B in person and A has a minute or two, let's say, one minute to vent about whatever they want to vent about. It has to be something that they can get really

passionate about. It can be as massive about, you know, the the worst atrocities of the world, or it can be the sound of your husband chewing. You must swear at least twice. And person be's job is to just listen. So person A has one minute on the clock, they do whatever they can. Often they poop out and realize, oh, I don't actually I don't actually hate this stuff as much as I thought I did, which is always fascinating,

especially if it's you know, in the second category. But also even if they are they're huge, they're passionate there whatever, and person be just listens. What's person be His job?

After that minute is over. Person Be's job is to turn to the group at large and say, this is my friend whatever person his name is, and what I know about person A is and then say absolutely nothing of the actual vent, not even a wink at it, not even a hint, just what you learned about their values and their concerns as a person, just a listening to that event, whatever it is, You figure it out, You hear what you hear, and and person be tod not know in advance that that's what they were going

to be listening for, but it forces them in front of a group to honor person A, this is my friend, and I want to honor them. Two things happen. One person be has often the first experience in their entire life of speaking in public without thinking about themselves, because it is such an active act to try to honor this person and say things that were not what they what they just heard. And second, it really strengthens or begins the process of developing that muscle of how do

I listen for? The concern underneath what people are saying? Words are weird, and you know, inarticulate and not always they mean many things in English or not enough things, you know, But the underneath, the motivation, the human you know, the beating heart underneath the words, is what we're really what we should be listening for. That's yes, and it's

something that comes to mind. If you're forced to really listen to what's behind the words, does that help you get past the form from which the words are emanating. And I don't mean to say that in like a color blind way or to not see gender, or but to hold it and not to see it as a single story of that person's experience. I mean this is brilliant because what I'm hearing is look at us, that all the different ways that we all the different ways

that we articulate ourselves based on our life experiences. And I mean this from the absolutely literal what accent we have based on where we grew up, to all of the socialized stuff that's that we've picked up on purpose

or not our whole lives. I'm you know this age female, So I say, like in my statements more often than a you know a different aged female or a you know sixty five year old man, you know whatever, all the different ways that we've been socialized to communicate, how how we do, how each of us individually does um

is take it or leave it. It's part of us fin but underneath it is the stuff that's way more universal, what our wants are and our needs are we all have the same but because of that top level stuff that comes out different, we don't hear it the same. Yes, yes, absolutely,

And there's so much fascinating data about that. Um when you want to think about bias and our medical system and how we hear pain at the same pain, how we hear differently if it's coming from a black person, a white person, a woman, a man, a rich person, a poor person, I mean, a brown person. It goes on and on and on. So yeah, I think it's really powerful. I'd love to talk about the ways that you open and close meetings. You know, you modeled for us something at the top, but even naming the land

we're on and naming our pronouns is a start. And then there's something else too that I've heard you do in a number of meetings I've been in with you, where you really name intentionally what's happening in the space or what we hope will happen in this space. And I wonder if you could talk about how you know each of us can do some version of that when we're attempting to have a difficult conversation with somebody, to

sort of set some sort of a ground rule. Yes, yes, thank you for that, and especially for example white friends who are in denial of their privilege or something. Yes, So I will say it might feel or I won't say this. I will say that for me when I have tried to kind of off the cuff do this in a friendship and say hey, can we have a difficult conversation and here are some ground rules, it doesn't really fly so well, so I will tell you what

I have. It feels like it completely rends the social fabric of what these contracts are when we when we start a conversation that seems like it's supposed to be casual. That's right. So I think that if I'm in a situation where it's one on one, I will call them and I'll say, I want to have a difficult conversation

with you, and I hope you'll stay with me. And I'm bringing this conversation to you because I trust that our relationship can sustain it, and I am going to do my best to speak from my experience and not make statements with you and them like you do this, you are this, and you know can you do the same, And let's just see where we where we go now? That's one of the ground rules in the work. And

again these are guiding principles from the National Seed Project. Um, I really hats off to them for putting me on this journey and all the tools they've given me. You know, speak from your own perspective, share the airspace, balance listening and speaking, acknowledge intent and focus on impact, and also acknowledge that our impact is viewed differently based on our identities.

So there are several others, but the idea is that I really wanted name for folks the work that we're about to take on, and to give us some structure to hold us in that space, so that when someone starts to point a finger and say you, I can gently interrupt them and say, hey, listen, let's refer back to our guiding principle. Can you make that statement again

and make it an eye statement. Speak from your own perspective And so there are tools that help you in facilitation, but it also really it sets the tone for the conversation. Those are also such useful. I mean, I feel like we all need to listen back to the tools that you just listed off, and like take notes and post them in our offices because this isn't just for difficult conversations about race. This is for any any difficult conversation, you know, asking for a raise, asking, you know, going

to hr anything. And if you're not necessarily in the power position, you can't necessarily name those and set the space that way. But at least you can practice. How would I go into this conversation with I statements? Yes, because it's going to work out better for everybody, you know, right, And I'll add one to that for your listeners. Expect discomfort again. I think we touch in that earlier, but to expect that this is going to be like Kumbaya.

It's going to be great. We had that difficult conversation and then that's it. Um. This isn't a checking the box. This is going to be a daily practice. So expect discomfort and be curious about it. I just want to everybody to hear what you said to a group of us on Sunday night, which is canceled. Culture won't kill any of us, but our silence will take lives. Yes, you know, our reputation, how we're seeing whatever, getting it wrong,

the perfectionism that lives in many many of us. Yes, absolutely right, and just acknowledging that if we're holding that in opposition to the pain and the violence that our silence can bring. Absolutely, that is where some of the discomfort lies. Absolutely that you know, we kind of got to choose the second one, and then how does that feel?

And how what is it? What is it actually feel like to get things wrong, especially and when you're when you're visible and audible, not just alone in your own house, And to build it endurance for that, because that's what

this is going to take. And to not just build endurance, but like the joy part of it that you're talking about is like, how do we how do we think about growth in those feelings that are like in those moments that are like oh as like also curiosity and also like joy that we're becoming a better version of ourselves. There's this wonderful what you were talking about at the fair beginning made me think about this wonderful concept that

David Brooks, God bless whatever. I rarely quote white Man, but he talked about resume virtues versus eulogy virtues that so much of us in our lives are going for resume virtues. Right, I want to I want to be or seem successful and accomplished, and really, what are people going to talk about us when we're gone. We're gonna take a quick break and we're going to come back to find out who you brought in for us? Okay, great, Okay, So who did you bring in for us to listen to?

I brought in, uh, Angela Davis? Because who doesn't love Angela Davis? I love. It's sort of it feels to me at this point like every single person that my guests spring in, I'm like, I can't believe that this person that they're brought in before. But the timing is so great. Thank you so much for bringing her in now of all times. Angela Davis, revolutionary Black panther scholar. This is a famous clip of her speaking to a reporter in two from a woman's prison where she was

serving time for a crime that she didn't commit. Here it is they had to take their guns and patrol our community every night because they did not want that to happen again. I mean that's why when someone asked me about violence, uh, I just I just found an incredible because what it means is that the person who was asking that question has absolutely no idea what black people have gone through what black people have experienced in this country since the time the first black person was kidnapped.

From the show was of Africa and familiar with that quote. I mean, I mean listen, yeah, listen. I went straight to the I went straight to I was, I was. I listened to some of her later. You know, she's an academic, she's done with a huge amount of lectures that are available on the internet. But I thought, especially this is you know this, this uh clueless white guy asking about the choice of the Black panthers using violence

as one of the revolutionary tactics. And she just spends like three minutes saying, um, I'm sorry our choice, that's right, that's right. Well, I think about something that and again, this is not These are not my words, and these are things that a lot of social just as activists are saying right now. I think Tamiko Malory said this. I was going to say, she's the exact same quote. It was the exact same thing people are talking to us about looting. Well, this land was looted from the

Native Americans. Black bodies have been looted, and we're just doing what you taught us. The violence is what we learned from you. That's right, that's right. So don't talk to us about violence when I talk to us about looting.

Take a look at yourselves. Absolutely, And the fact that Angela Davis, I mean she in this video she's smoking while in a women's prison in V. Two, wearing like the coolest like seventies turtleneck while in prison, saying these words directly to the face of an absolutely clueless white man with all of the theoretical power in that room. Well, and what's also very interesting is that that man is um I can forget now, but he's like Scandinavian or

I don't I'm not, but he's not an American. Right before he goes into speak with her, he does speak in another language actually don't remember, German or something, and and he basically focuses on like that he got the he got the scoop. He's the first person to get to go in and talk to her. So that's clearly what it was, was like I just made a awesome career booth and and then was so ready with his got you question about about how violence isn't the answer,

and then she got ship him back. That's right, that's right. It was about him, and he didn't even realize that it has nothing to do with him and everything to do with him. Yes, love that, And I mean, also what a great it's so it's so seventies, but the news footage just focuses on her and tighter and wider view but doesn't actually cut back to him, which just like, you know, it's lovely, it really centers that, like she's the you know point well, I also love and you'll

know more about this than I would. I love how intentional she is with every word. It's so powerful to hear her speak. Um. I feel like I'm you know, listening and pin drops she's economical and yet says, you know, it's she just has a way with words. Yeah, and I and I wonder also if it's um, you know, at that point, she'd already had so much academic training and so much um revolutionary training. You know, she'd read enough to know what her opinion was. Is what I'm

trying to say. And you know, a secret for all of us when we're trying to speak publicly is obviously to do the work. But what that means is not just to do the work of reading, but to do the work of reading and then sitting with what do I agree with? What don't I agree with? Yeah? And I think what was so powerful for me to see as a young woman of color was her confidence. Like I needed to see that because I saw confidence is something that only certain people got to have. Now, let

me tell you something. My mama was confident. Walk into a room, was like everyone's looking at me, everyone's listening to me. So I'm so thankful I had her to guide me. And I did not always get to see that with a lot of folks of color. I mean it's training. It's training, right, the deferential the I mean, I call it performing gratitude, said. A lot of us were told it is a requirement to enter a space, and if we don't perform gratitude, we're called, depending on

our identities, a bitch, pupity m you know. So then we're like, okay, I guess I have to perform this. And then it it's so ingrained in us that we don't know how to be confident because our entire life we've said, but I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah, we walk into our into a room, and I'll say, for myself, I would walk into a room, and I didn't immediately apologize for my existence. I'm so sorry? Am I too loud? Am I taking too much space? You know?

Am I too brown? And I whatever? Fill in the blank? Am I not enough? Well? And this is something that you know, comes up on this podcast a lot, because obviously I'm a huge kick for people to who are listening to, you know, think about the ways in their life that they're apologizing for taking up space and taking up time and start to you know, roll that back and also acknowledge that some of that is in place because of systemic oppression safety O, their fear of their safety, yes,

absolutely systemic a person that led them there. But also why they might not take the advice of this random woman on this podcast is because they're all ready to They're all ready to say, you know, today's the day I'm not going to apologize for myself, And then they walk into a space that's scary as fuck and they realize the only way they're going to quote unquote phrase I use all the time, get what they want with

their voice is to play that game. It's why we've done it smart can Night share one short powerful story? Of course, this was years ago. Um I was facilitating during the National Seed Projects summer institutes, So as facilitating for one of the summer institutes, and I was in a small group discussion. It was multiracial with men and

women as well and UM sis gender and heterosexual. So we have this, we have this protocol where when someone causes harm, you say ouch, and then the person who caused harms says oops, and then that is when there's a facilitator check in. So there was a comment that was made by a white woman that caused harm to a black woman, and a black woman said ouch. The

white woman immediately said oops and burst into tears. Well, the entire circle shifted towards her, and the first person to give her a Kleenex and comfort her was the black woman she got up from They were sitting across from each other, and circle got up and gave her a clean X. And I was about to jump out of my chair, and the woman I was sitting next to you, Gil Cruz Robinson, who was an amazing facilitator and um is one of the lead staff at the

National Seed Project, just kind of gently touched by because she could tell that the house about to fly on my chair and she gave it a moment. We all, you know, took a breath and said, I want to point out that the harmless caused to the black woman, and yet we're all tending to this white woman. And I actually want to turn to this black woman and ask her, you know, why did you also go to comfort her? You're the one in pain. We need to tend to you. And she said something that I still

gives me chills to say. She said, when she's uncomfortable, I'm unsafe. And that's something that will never leave me, and a reminder to me that if folks of color cannot show up to do this work in the way that white folks are doing it, that's the different justice that we need and that we have to create in this world. So when folks of color do the work, they're literally risking their safety. When white folks do the work, they're risking their comfort. I also want to ask the

real fast does this work? Does offering yourself up as a facilitator while also being a woman of color create a burden for you? And if so, how do you relieve it? It is a weight. It's a hard question because it it is hard work. I relieve it. I find my affinity spaces, and I retreat to my the woman of color in my life who support me. Um. I retreat into my I shouldn't say retreat, but I find shelter in my faith, in my religion sicky and

I get into nature. I cuddle with my babies, I read, read, read, and I breathe take lots of deep breaths. But yeah, it's not a choice. I'm compelled. Yeah. Thanks, thank you. I'm grateful for this space, for this time, your voice, my voice to Cole Mingle, thanks, thank you. I'm crying. I cried. You made me cry. That's good. That's good pod right there. Thank you to naelm Get for joining us. You can find out more about her and the National Seed Project in the show notes or on our website

Permission to Speak pot dot com. And there's also a really amazing bit of bonus content that's gonna be thrown onto year old Instagram feed having to do with awkward things that your kid might say around people who look different than them, and some feedback on what to do about it. Please go to Instagram Permission to Speak Pod, send me d M S or right in the comments. I would love to see it publicly as well. Tell me what the difficult conversations are that you're having this week.

Tell me about how it feels to use your voice in new and weird ways, and you know, let's keep this conversation going. I'll do a mail bag episode coming up. So truly, if you have any questions, whether it's about social justice work or about leadership in any other capacity in your life. And you know, by leadership, I just mean saying what matters, you know, let me know. We'll talk about it. It will resonate with other people, believe me. Thanks as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at

I Heart Radio, my family and friends and all of you. Truly, we're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us d a C dot us to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burke Canton and

Mark Canton. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, listen on the ihart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Too pomp and pumping, poking,