Meena Harris

how we sound when we have it. I'm your host, samaraw Ba, and this is permission to speak, where we can throw all our best ideas about how to get ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest is Mina Harris. She is the founder and CEO of the Fun Nominal Woman Action campaign that's like a little more

than a dieser company. It's basically a movement at this point that connects so many of us, as well as one that shines a light on and raises funds for all kinds of important social causes, from Families Belong Together which helped with the crisis of the border, to hire heights, and organization that supports women of color and leadership. I wanted to have Mina on because she has worked in so many rooms that are hard to get into. She

graduated from Harvard Law School. She's worked in tech, in corporate, in the social justice space. She did youth vote organizing for Barack Obama's campaign and OH eight, and she's also worked on her aunt, Kamala's campaigns for Attorney General of California, as well as her senate and residential runs. We talked about how to handle intimidating spaces, how to not suck at meetings, how to speak up and how to not, and what it takes to center our stories for ourselves

and for our kids. This is mina mina Hi being here, think here doesn't even mean anything anymore. Thank you for joining us remotely. It's great to hear your voice, still feeling that connection, but yeah, it's kind of a weird time. Um. I'm really struck by how many different industries you've worked in or are working in, from corporate to law to politics to tech, and how they sort of all run

on meetings. So I'd love to dive in here first in terms of, you know, our listeners and all of us thinking about how we're using our voice literally and metaphorically, like what what actually happens? What have you found is first of all, what's like, what's like meeting mina? Like? What what's your style? You know what I mean? What you hate? What do you like? What you know? It's a strong word, but like what really doesn't work? Oh

my god, well I will use the word hate. I I mean, it's like a full on meme now, but you know, meetings that should have been emails like I So to answer your question meeting mina, it's funny, you know, I think actually my meeting style is different in different contexts. I would say that, And I think this goes to probably what a lot of what we'll talk about right in terms of how you use your voice in different settings. But I would say sort of in the corporate professional space,

it's very direct. It's like about business. It's about like efficiency, like let's get this done right, to the point of um not having uh, you know, unnecessary meetings that could have been handled via email. UM, so much more sort of you know, I guess about business, maybe even a

little bit more formal in that way. And I think probably that comes more from my corporate law background than it does tech, because tech is I think much more UM can be much more sort of casual, and then on the flip side, I think with phenomenal Um, I don't know, it's interesting. I guess I do think that

I'm a little bit less formal. I think in part because the nature of the work is just so different, right, I mean, there's a lot of external partners, a lot of it is creative, so a lot of it is like brainstorming and um kind of working through different issues and how we're going to talk about them, learning about them.

So I think that that one is a little bit more kind of like me, and maybe there's a little bit more you know, humor, and it's a little feels more maybe like closely connected in terms of the teams that I work with. So yeah, there's definitely a difference. But I would say that the professional sort of meeting MINA corporate MINA is definitely kind of more about business.

Do you feel like that also is related to the actual makeup of who's in those meetings in terms of gender and age or is it not that and it's much more about the actual like industry. I think it's

more about the standards that I hold for myself. I mean, I guess if I'm to think about that, I probably carried over, Yes, some of that from the corporate law context, where it's much more you know, formal and buttoned up and um, you know, you're presenting to a client or you know, presenting to a partner, to a boss, and it's sort of much more um maybe pressure to feel like you need to you know, perform and impress. I'm not at all things that's a good thing. I also

feel like it's not a bad thing. Like I think it's too easy for us to be like we should always just be casual. But really there's a reason that we read a room and you know, react accordingly exactly, and it's been one of the biggest I would say, you know, things that I've learned and adjusted to going from you know, big law into tech, which is tech is much more informal in many different ways. And part of it is, as you said, reading the room, it's

adapting to different cultures, right, and and work styles. And when you think about leadership, know within a company and outside, it's sort of like you have to think about do you want to be that type of leader that adapts to different cultures from work styles or are you the type of leader that's like I don't care. I'm gonna do what I want to do. And you can guess, you know, I I have opinions on sort of who's more effective, but I think that's what it comes down to, right,

Are you being effective? Are you communicating in a way where you are developing you know, influence and followership and buy in? Right? I think that's that's what it comes down to. And and people feeling invested and passionate and what you're doing. And I think that's key, right anything

being successful. And I absolutely see that with you know, phenomenal woman, where you know, I think you cannot miss my passion and enthusiasm for that, and um it's about, you know, how do you get others to feel that right and to feel moved by that, um so that they're just as invested. And I will say that there have been moments where I have found I felt frustrated right where there are work styles that I preferred from corporate law and ways of sort of doing business and

doing work that are simply just not the norm. And I've had to figure out, you know, how do I adapt to them in a way where I can still be successful in terms of like having to okay, so we need to soften here, and we need to actually like have a chat about however body is before we can get into business. When really I'd like to get into business. That's totally one of them. Totally one of them.

As a as a type A, I hear that and I'm like, I see you, which is not to say I mean, obviously I'm also like a wildly friendly human who wants to know about people. But you know that's when it's like, let's do that over drinks exactly. And I think part of it is just you know, generational

frankly too. I mean that's also culture, of course, but I definitely, you know, kind of grew up and was schooled in, you know, the thought that like you're not you're not going to work to make friends, You're going to work to do work, right, And it's just, you know, the culture is different in different places. And I think as well, like I said, in the corporate law on sex, there's a very clear kind of separation between those two spaces, um, you know, happy hour versus like when you're at work

and in meetings. And I think part of it, I mean, just to be very um you know, to like really break it down. Part of it is that you're literally on a billable hour, right, like minutes are dollars right when you're in a corporate law context, so you really don't want to be wasting, you know, time when you're on the clock doing things that are are not contributing

to the work. So but you know, again, I think it's something that I've definitely learned and I think has made me probably I hope, more of an effective leader, where it does go a long way to just stop and say, hey, how are how are you right? Like how is your weekend? Or how are your kids? Um? Again, to your point, like, I'm such a I'm a very warm, you know person, I'm very interested in other people and and want to know how their kids and lives are.

But I've traditionally sort of reserved that for a certain time and space. And I think that the lines are a little bit more you know, blurred in tech for example. Well, and I would also argue that there's like a little bit of a false dichotomy that we might be sort of accidentally falling into, because I also think there's something about I don't know, when you're entirely in a corporate or legal context, and you're really just like solving a

problem and moving on. But if you're actually working with people that you work with like on a regular basis and you have a shared history, there can be something that feels very friend like in actually doing the work together and caring together about a thing about you know, solving this thing that's in front of us. So it's not just like we're cold when we do the work

and we're warm when we talk about our lives. You know, there's like this really gorgeous, nebulous space that we often are in with our with our real collaborators where we're not talking about our our lives outside of the room, and yet we're bringing ourselves. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think again it depends on the context and

the nature of the work. I find that that comes out a lot more in the work that we do with um Phenomenal, because it's about you know, a lot of the stuff that we're doing is talking about issues that impact human lives in you know, serious ways, and there's more emotion, there's more you know, sort of getting in touch with the the issues and empathy and on

all that stuff. And I think to your point, there are ways in which you know, we it's important to bring those perspectives into the room, even when more formal corporate context. Right, if you're talking about really sort of being creative and doing interesting work and allowing the team sort of the space to connect in a way that's gonna lead to better work, I think, you know, it's

just funny. I've seen it. I've also seen it go kind of like off a deep end where um, it's like you it's it's a little bit too much, right, And so I think part of it too is you have to establish the boundaries. You have to establish sort of the standards and the culture so that it doesn't sort of get away from you, Right. I mean that's part of leadership for sure. Exactly exactly, not necessarily saying out loud. You know, we can talk about our home

lives for five minutes and then let's switch. That sounds like a little too much, but you know something, by modeling, you know exactly exactly. Okay, So to back up real fast, you worked at Facebook, at Slack, at an international law firm like you're talking about. You worked on the campaign for Barrock as well as for Kamala. I want to know about like what makes you intimidated? Wow, what makes

me intimidated? You've been in so many rooms, right, I mean we're talking a little bit about reading those rooms and no one when to speak up. I've come to just in my own sort of like self awareness and journey. I think that the moments when I've been most intimidated are when I feel like I don't know enough or no everything right. And I experienced it, I think, really um intensely for the first time in law school, where you know, it's new material. It's just it's a totally

new world. And I wasn't one of those people who came in sort of theyre had a lot of classmates that you know, had like done pre law and we're like really kind of acted demic, you know, in like legal um space before coming to law school, and I think we're kind of much more immersed in it. But I felt like there were the moments, you know, in class where and you can't know everything. I think that's

part of like the understanding of the journey. But I think those are the moments where I felt intimidated, where it's like I didn't know everything perfectly, I didn't have sort of full expert, you know, knowledge of a certain issue, and therefore felt intimidated about you know, speaking to those things, whether it was like a case in class or you know, in political context and uh, you know, some sort of

policy issue. And then maybe perhaps the intimidation also came from being surrounded by people who I did perceive as sort of you know, knowing that stuff and being really you know, accomplished or or knowledgeable. Right at my law firm as an example, I mean, it was one of the most formative professional experiences for me, in part because I was just surrounded by some of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life. Right, Um, so, I think there's obviously an intersection there of of of

confidence to right. And I think part of that in my own journey is is knowing what you don't know and being okay with that and being able to say, you know, depending on the context. You know, I need

to look into this more. But here's what I do know, and here's how I would just want to a based on what I do know, rather than maybe in those instances choosing not to speak at all, right, just acknowledging the limitations and still you know, offering contributions based on what you do know, um, and I think that's obviously better than and then not you know, and then staying silent, which I've definitely done before. I did it a lot

in law school. I sort of just chose, um not to to speak up as much as I probably would have, because I didn't want to make mistakes. I didn't want to seem, you know, not as knowledgeable. Yeah, oh my god, there's so much there. There's so much. There's a lot like like I mean, first of all, just just it's okay to not speak up sometimes, you know, like absolutely for so many of us, especially when we're feeling like we have to prove ourselves, which is all of us

all the time. Not really, but like you know, they're

they're that's that's like such a universal experience for people. Um, this sort of like take me seriously, and to know that there is a strength in in you know, quietly observing and sort of collecting your thoughts which we sometimes forget, and also knowing what you're talking about when you talk, right, Like there's definitely something to that as well, right, But also like it's so hard to because like there's so much leniency with white men when it comes to that,

like they can think they're thoughts out loud as they have them, and they may not even end in a particularly useful place. Absolutely, yeah, but they're having them out, you know, and I don't I is that something we should be aiming for. I don't know. I like the freedom of it, right, No, I think I mean it's

a balance, right, I think. Yeah. Historically, you know, white men have been accustomed to to to speaking when they want to speak um, regardless of how knowledgeable they may be, and I think we all can learn from that, perhaps, But I also think it's important to acknowledge that historically they've been rewarded for it, right, and that is not the case for women, or in particular for women of color.

Um that they are sort of given that presumptive you know, um credibility or power or you know, assumption that they know what the hell they're talking about. If they don't write, if they end up saying something that doesn't make any sense, people will think I probably didn't get it right. I

think was it Michelle Obama? There's a quote or I think maybe it's from her book Tour, but I think there's a similar question and she said something to the effect of it was basically like, once you finally get in those rooms, you realize that, like they're not that smart. Yeah, I'm just as smart as you are. And I think

that was definitely my journey with law school. I would say it kind of I really kind of gained that, you know, real confidence, and you know, the intimidation was happening less and less when I was at my law firm practicing because I was like, you know what, I do, know what the hell I'm talking about, And I'm advising you know, major clients and they're taking my advice and it's going well, and like, you know, it's like what

else is there? Right like and obviously there's some validation there and there's um, you know again back to the

leadership conversation. Part of that was like having a really great boss who gave me that autonomy and gave me that confidence and you know, so there's so many pieces to this, but I do think that part of it is like, you know, recognizing what you don't know, being confident in the things that you do, and being willing, uh you know, to speak up when they're sort of that in between space of not entirely knowing, but like

still having you know, something to share. But then also to your point of not you know, taking up space when you don't need to, and when somebody else who may be more more knowledgeable, should be the one speaking, especially if it's not a white man, right, because we know that most often those voices are diminished. Um, there's this whole concept of the shine theory. Yes, I was

just talking about that. Yep. I was just thinking because right, because part of the solution obviously is having leaders in any context that are you know, just historically outside of power. I mean, that's the point of this podcast, Like how do we how do we just call ourselves the next generation of leaders? And that's that, um. But also, yeah, part of it is about our allies along the way can help those those moments, help help us feel like we can speak up in those moments and that will

be supported. It's not just like us versus the world exactly, and that there are ways that each of us can quote unquote speak up that is not for ourselves, that could be right in the service of others or in this you know, shine theory, which is developed by um I mean not too so. She's the host of the Call Your Girlfriend podcast, And the whole concept is that when you shine, I shine, and therefore, if I'm helping you to shine, I'm helping me to shine, I'm helping

all of us right to shine. There's this amazing story, Um, I think it was Obama White House female staffers that opted this technique where if one woman, you know, said something in a meeting that was predominantly men, the other woman would would repeat what she said and said, oh,

you know, I really agree with what so and so said. Um, I think it's a really good point, and continuously like give each other credit, right because they knew that as they were building each other up, that was emphasizing it to everybody else who was listening, which you know obviously means that for one like, men could not take credit

for the ideas. There's this um it's like a meme, right like you, uh, you say something and it goes a woman says something and it goes like ignored, and then the man like five minutes later repeats in it. And that's a great idea. Nobody's ever said. That's like, we know, I just said that, Can I get some backup? Right? And then and then then your allies are like, yes, preparing for this moment, and actually what you're saying is

also so valuable. Whenever whenever I think of shine theory, I think about it from the point of view of the person who's who's you know, sort of sharing the scary idea into the meeting. But when you also help me remember is that it's also from the point of view of those allies, and that is a way to build up our our like you know, meeting confidence is to say that to just practice saying what Mina just

said was so great. I just want to make sure everybody heard that, you know, I mean, can we just how how amazing does that make you feel when you're in a meeting, especially if you may already be feeling intimidated, when somebody you know validates you and someone says, you know, that's a really good point. I love that idea. Oh my god. I mean, we should all do that with each other anyway. I mean, we absolutely should, and that's

the whole concept. And I think if you just right now put yourself in a meeting when somebody says that to you, it's like, Wow, that felt so good, thank you, And I just had this you know, burst of confidence to um, you know, continue with my idea, to continue sharing that and I think just putting yourself in the shoes of that person and knowing how good that feels like.

That's just so easy, um. And part of it is you know again, it's it's um a listening technique, right, Like back to the leadership being effective, you know, right, this is something that we can all be doing, not only to lift up others, but to just like do better work. M Yeah. Absolutely, And also what a lovely gift to just be able to be the person who says I just want to shine a light on what

that person said. As a unit of communication. We're often thinking about units of communication in terms of like I have to give this speech or I have to do this difficult conversation. But to think of it as the like gifts that we can give that we where we don't really have any agenda of our own except for like for the sisterhood as a whole. Exactly. It's a really nice reminder and it's also so easy. It's like

the easiest thing you can possibly right. Well, so this is like a natural segue because Phenomenal Woman feels a little bit like the T shirt version of shine theory. Now that I think about it, you know what I mean. I heard you say somewhere that what's great about these shirts? And for anybody listening who doesn't know, which is like six people in the whole world. Um, you know, you you should probably tell the story about me. But this,

I know, this came out of the election. Um, and you thought it would only last for like a month or something, right, Yeah, no, that I mean, you got it right. I wanted to just jump immediately to as you said, it's like almost shine theory and the T

shirt version. I love that. Which is one of the most just extraordinary amazing things about it was when we first launched the campaign, which is on International Women's Day, and as you said, it was to raise money for women's organizations, and all of these women were posting pictures in their T shirts, right, and imagine this was like the first time ever that people were like wearing the shirt and putting it out on social and the reactions were just, oh my god, it was amazing, just like

the self love right to put it out there, and then all of the comments of people like, oh my god, you are phenomenal, Like I'm phenomenal, We're phenomenal. It just became this like huge love fest of like you know, self affirmation unit, the affirmation all these people lifting each other up, and I think it was just it was extraordinary, you know, as you said, it's like somebody to put that out there is sending a message like I'm I'm willing to, you know, lift myself up and have the

confidence to put this out in the world. And it was clearly inspiring that in other people, not only to build up that person and say like, fun, yeah, you are phenomenal, but also like wait a second, I want

to wear that shirt because I'm phenomenal too. And you know, like people would send me photos where they, you know, were like at their local coffee shop and they ran into a woman who they didn't know who's like wearing the T shirt and then you know, they take a photo and send it to me and would think that they were best friends. But it becomes this little you know, like club of just like self love and treaty love, where you know, you see people and you're like, oh

my god, right, we're all phenomenal. While part of the same God that's so gorgeous, were part of the same tribe. Yeah, exactly, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. You said once that it makes it easy for women to make a powerful statement. And I think that we know about the powerful statement we know about women, but the making it easy part cannot cannot be overstated. Right. We just need these like gentle, gentle ways that we can work on speaking up for

ourselves totally. And it's you know, it's about meeting people where they are, and that it doesn't have to be this big leap of you know, whatever is that thing that intimidates you, Right, it can be something so small and uh nevertheless meaningful. And some of the most inspiring moments for me have been, um, women talking about it like it's armor, right, that they derive power and strength

from it, ranging from wearing it to meetings. Right that we're like a big important meeting where they were you know, giving a presentation or otherwise UM felt sort of you know, intimidated and wanted to go in with confidence. I've had other women you know, send me photos when they wore it, um, while they were giving birth, when they were going into labor, right, Um, and like this idea that it's almost this you know, like you derive superpowers from it. It's like this cape

or this you know armor. I just love that. And I think part of it too, you know, around this conversation around sort of your individual voice and speaking up and what that means for each person is that is much that is universal, right, and that women are phenomenal, and um, we we deserve everything in the world and to speak up and and to be heard. But it also has such unique meeting for individual people on any

given day. Right. So one day it made me have the phenomenal mother shirt and you feel like you've been a shitty mom all week and you just need to put that on to remind yourself, Right, I have that one.

So I don't know what you're talking, but you know, there's others that I had a deadline to meet and I had to just like jam and you know, get this done and did an all nighter and I wore my fucking shirt and I did it right, and I feel so good and I just had to put it on because I have to accomplish this a big thing. So yeah, it's just it's so small, um, and but it's it's it's really beautiful and meaningful. What's beautiful What

I'm hearing you say is that it's outward and inward. Yes. Yes, I came across when I was when I was thinking about talking with you, I was rereading Presence, the Amy Cutty book, and she said this line that and you think of this, She said, sometimes there's a during life, you know, sometimes there's a process that involves fitting our true self to the situation or role that we're in by choosing which core values and traits to render visible.

I love that, right, It's such an the whole idea, I mean what partly what she's saying is that we do have to sort of like you know, fit ourselves into these weird situations and not bring parts of ourselves into the room that would be you know, whatever taken wrong. And that's a whole thing and there's so much intersectionality

to be discussed there. But also when we're talking about what our core values are with the things we don't want to leave behind our when we go into those rights, the idea of how we render that visible, you know, literally visible by wearing it on a shirt is also just a reminder of like, yeah, and I can bring some of that with me. I can bring the fact that I'm a mother into this, you know, professional context,

and not apologize for normalize it. In fact, you know, I can bring you know, some aspect of my culture that is not what the dominant culture is, and rather than apologizing it for it, knowing that it's you know whatever, it's a strength. It's one of the reasons I was

asked into this room. Exactly. Yeah. I think it makes me think almost of like there's a difference between assimilating and adapting, and I think that to me, I feel like adapting when we talk about adopting to a culture or I just feels like there's more intentionality and choice to decide which pieces you want to make more visible while you know, being effective, right, Whereas I feel like that's beautiful and it also ties in with what you're

talking about earlier about leadership in in a really specific way. Exactly. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back after this. Okay, so we're back below. Um, I want to talk a little bit about this totally one of the kind of experience that you had growing up with the grandma you had and the mom had and the aunt you have. I mean, I guess I'm wondering like what you observed in how they communicated in different contexts.

I mean, it's some of the stuff that we've been talking about, but when you were sort of first aware of and what you've taken with you in terms of this sort of you know, specifically moving through private and public spheres and also this legal versus not because all of you guys have had this experience and it really does something to someone, right in a not bad way, but it is these like you're really aware I think of modes. You know. It's funny, I don't think I

became aware of it now that you're talking about it. Like, I don't think I became aware of it until I myself was in a corporate context, in part because like nobody else in my family ever had been really in corporate context, right, Like my grandmother was a researcher and scientists. My you know, my aunt was um, you know, in public service, right, and was in politics. My mom was also a public interest lawyer. Right. And So now that I'm kind of thinking back to like, what did I

see in terms of different modes? I frankly, I feel like the I really saw, for the most part, one mode, which was more of the kind of like activist you know, speak up, shout, you know, speak your mind, fight the power, right like bang down the door. I mean for sure, from my my mom and my grandma. I guess I suppose in some ways in that formulation, you know, I saw through Kamala, my aunt, UM, you know, doing it

more from the inside. But nevertheless, you know, she was she chose to do the work that she did from the perspective of you know, fighting for communities UM that don't often get you know, act sus to those institutions to be heard or to be you know protected, which is to say that you know, it was about criminal justice reform and racial justice, um, just as it was from my mom. They were just doing it sort of from two different, uh spaces. But nevertheless, I felt like

for all of them it was still very strong. But I think when you're talking about simply you know, using your voice, it was really kind of frankly, this one mode of being strong and powerful and speaking up and not being afraid to do that. Whereas I think this you know, kind of corporate stuff or even you know, there's all this stuff around like code switching. I don't think that I really appreciated that until I was experiencing it myself. You mentioned code switching. Is it something that

you think about? Yeah? Absolutely, I think that when it comes to you know, your own culture and personal you know, culture and norms that may be different from you know, the space that you're in, which is more likely than not going to be you know, predominantly white space. Especially we're talking about corporate and masculine. Let's just throw it all in, you know, absolutely, Yeah, I mean, you're you're going to have to do that um or or I

should put another way. I mean, this whole conversation is about I guess I suppose like choosing to do that or or not. Well. Part of the reason that I'm always talking about how to use your voice to get what you want, you know, I'm I'm using that phrase deliberately because it's really not about there being a right and a wrong way, or like a sort of morally better or morally worse way. It really is practical, you know.

I mean, I would like us to all feel like we live in a world where we can bring whatever feels culturally honest to us into the space. But you know, we don't always live in that world, and maybe it's our opportunity or responsibility to change the spaces that we're in once we have a little power, but it's not

necessarily our responsibility on our way up. It's risky. Yeah, I think that that's the part that is really hard, That people feel that they need to hide certain parts of themselves or speak in a way that is not natural for them or what have you, in order to succeed, and there's fear and insecurity attached to it. Well, that's what I mean that that they should have the responsibility lifted if it's about safety or about you know, literally

your job is on the line. You are not the person who needs to be, you know, making a political statement about this. My version of this, which is totally like a to C, but it's a it's an analogy that it feels right to me is when I'm working on a TV show and I'm surrounded by like, no people who have children, I should say, no women of childbearing years, because twelve hour days on a TV show you kind of can't unless you have like a really

really wild set of you know, childcare solutions exactly. And so then there's me and you know, often there's like women who are younger than me who don't have kids yet, who don't know how they possibly could, and also still work in this industry, you know. And so in that context, when I do feel like I do have a corner of power that I can stand in, then I fucking love to talk about my kid, And not because I'm talking about it because like, oh my god, I'm not mom,

but because I'm normalizing that ship. Exactly. It's my responsibility in a way that feels satisfying, not in a way that feels heavy, you know, right, right, right right, And as you said that, it feels safe, and it's not going to affect my job. It's only going to affect the next generation and how they how they think about their own you know, freedom. But yeah, that's not the

same in every context. And will I necessarily bring my kid up in a job interview, and I know it's some like, you know, older guy who's going to be judging me for mentioning my kid because it's gonna have some implication for whether or not I would be focused on my job. No, it is my responsibility to take care of myself in that context, you know, right, which is sort of like the sad truth right. I think we're all working towards a world in which we don't

have to do that, but it is the reality. It's sort of you know, what we aspire to versus like what we currently have to deal with and just be real about. Yeah. Yeah, I had this really interesting experience. It was about a year ago. I was interviewing John Thompson, who was at you know, IBM Forever and I believe was uh like vice president they're right, like very high up, and Stacy Brown Philpott who's the CEO of task Rabbit, and Stacy was talking about how John was, you know,

an inspiration for her. He was a model for her in terms of what she like the next generation of

what she wanted to achieve in her career. And having them both on stage talking about you know, things like diversity and inclusion and how do you show up in the workplace as your authentic self was really quite a moment for me where John said, you know, he showed up at IBM with his with his frow and his jeans, and everybody there was you know, clean cut, and they had suits in briefcases, and so he cut his frow and he put on a suit, and I was just sitting there like, oh my god, like wow, but of

course he did, right, Like, of course he did. And Stacy's sitting on the stage with you know, Dreads, right and she's the CEO of you know, a major company, and it was just this amazing kind of moment of recognizing, you know, how how far we've come in some ways that Stacy is now able to feel confident in wearing you know, her natural hair to work in a way

that John Thompson was not. But just that there's sort of still reality and what he experienced, right, which is and I'm sure Stacy experiences it to which that you know, she can show up with her natural hair. But I'm sure that's not without a cost in some instances for her. I'm sure it's not. It's certainly not without thought of,

you know, how it might be received. But she made that choice in and doing so makes it obviously, you know, she's setting that tone right from leadership down that that is something that is accepted and celebrated. I mean, my god, we like, let's be clear. You know, in California, we just passed a law that text you know, natural error from discrimination in the workplace, and the point is that we needed a law because there was real discrimination and

harm that was happening for people in the workplace. And when we're in a position of power, when we're able to do the hiring or you know, lead a team, one of the things we can think about is the ways that we can sort of loosen some of those you know, or not even necessarily loosened, but just questions some of the assumptions that have been handed down to us from that older generation that's aging out right and

and model it yourself right. I think that that is key, is that it does feel out and taken, that you're actually doing it versus just saying it right. That's that's when it really comes down to, like are you actually modeling the culture that you're you know, promoting. So, speaking of modeling, you have a kid's book coming out, and I want to talk about how tell me about this book. It's not out yet, it's not out yet, it's coming out very soon. It's gonna come out on June two.

We have a whole pre order campaign right now that's really about supporting local bookstores, which was, as we know, have been hit pretty hard by this public health crisis. And so I'm really proud that we have a whole campaign around supporting local bookstores. But yeah, you know, it's the whole book is really about everything we're talking about, right,

It's it's this family I grew up in. It's these stories that I heard as a kid about my mom and aunt um when they were children, and it's just that that they, you know, at at a young age, were taught and you know, demonstrated this uh strength and speaking up in confidence and in deciding to you know, have big, bold ideas and to and to go for them and to figure out, you know, how do you lean on your community, how do you come together and draw strength and numbers to make your voice even more

powerful when people tell you that you're too small um or that you know it can't be done right. It's basically everything is shyant theory is what you're saying. Everything

it all goes back to that. But it's really I think what I what has been so fun and meaningful is that obviously it's something that is special, you know, as I think about raising my own girls in the same way and sharing that experience with them of growing up in the household that I did, but sharing it with people all around the world and little girls around

the world. Well, I should actually say a little girl's only guys, it's for it's for all kids, right, But whose stories we sent our matters because you know, exactly exactly we know that girls of color and black children especially are still woefully underrepresented on bookshelves, and we have a lot more work to do there um in terms of, you know, again representation, whose voices are are elevated, who

do we listen to? And also, you know, as somebody who's raising a white boy, which I think about very seriously, I really want to make it clear that he can work that muscle every day, that empathy muscle of seeing a story about someone who doesn't look like him and

thinking I get that. I get that absolutely well. We also know, you know that when we talk about things like you know, cultural norms around sexual harassment and do we do we treat girls and women is fully formed humans who are capable of saying yes and no, Like this is basic stuff, but it starts so young and because of a lot of the cultural you know, harmful social norms that we have you know, so far kind of instilled within kids, like that's what it turns into

and you can catch that stuff early. You can you can really do good early on if you're intentional about it, and counteract some of the stuff that we know happens

later on. Um, which is very basic. Totally. It feels in my home, especially like now that my home is my entire life, like it's a form of activism when you know, we're getting these horrible, horrible messages from from you know, from Washington, from the outside, from the people that think that they're in power, and just to be able to say, like, we're changing the story right now, right here tonight at bedtime, Yes, you know exactly, And

it's interesting, yeah, for you to say we're changing the story. I mean, part of what inspired me to do the book is that I spent a lot of time as a new mom, my first kid, literally changing the story, changing he to her, coloring the skin in the character's breath, you know, and I sort of you know, when you talk about activism, part of it is just deciding like I'm going to go go out there and I'm gonna

go do it. And that's what I did. I was like, I'm going to write the damn book myself because I'm not seeing it, and I want my girls to have that, you know, and in that way too, I think that there's so much of what what it's about that again is basic, but that really adults can take away I think big lessons from that too. Right. I've spent the last three years through Phenomenal talking to many adult women who are saying, you know, what can I do? How do I show up? How do I speak up right?

How do I use my voice in a way that is meaningful and impactful? And it really comes down to basic stuff, um that you know. I don't want to downplay how hard it can be, right, but if you're if you're kind of actively pursuing it and thinking about it, you can do it yourself. You can read your kids that way, and it can be something that just becomes second nature. Right, And that is absolutely how I was raised and something I wanted to share with other people. Completely.

It's completely and I think you're right. I mean, obviously can feel really intimidating when people say, like, you know, speak up whatever, stand up for yourself. But if you're thinking about like the incremental steps, if you're thinking about like I can change the pronoun for my kid or then or you know what we're talking about earlier, like from the shine theory, from the point of view of the person who's doing that, Like, I just want to

point out what me and It just said. You know, those are these like little ways that we can like literally make our bodies get used to what's standing up for ourselves. Feels like exactly. Okay, last question before the break. Any comments people have made about your voice that you wish you could unhear but you can't. We've had a lot of conversation about the corporate context and how much

it can harm all of us. But I think there's also um points during that journey that I can uh point to you that I felt like it wasn't necessarily that I um that I was being like silenced, but there were moments where I felt like I was pushed

to question my voice or change my voice. And in particular, there was a tech company that I was working at in one of my male coworkers said, you know, like you're very direct and that can be off putting to people, and you know, right, like, I feel like we've all heard this before right at this point, but the kicker was he said, you know, I would recommend that you put more exclamation points and emojis in your communications to make people feel more comfortable. And I was just like,

are you fucking kidding me? Like you want me to add more exclamation Like did you seriously to say that to me? And my first thought was, you know, wow, would he say that to a guy? Right? But you know it was also back to kind of the original conversation. It was a moment of for me learning to adapt to different you know, work environments. Did I put more exclamation points in my communications like get out of here?

But you know, there were other ways that I thought about quote unquote like softening right, because it was it was clearly a place where that was valued and that was needed. And so I think the lesson for me is being able to understand when somebody's like bullshit and literally trying to silence you, versus being able to draw out you know what could be constructive like feedback. Right. It's the email equivalent of smile more. Oh, absolutely, no question.

I mean like literally used literally use like smiley face emojis? Are you kidding me? I mean? It's also it's also what a what a what a story? To underline the fact that like you know, in many ways this feels like a losing battle because for as many people as you know, will be listening to that and and see themselves in that situation, there's all the people who have been made fun of for the exclamation points in the emoji because it's it's quote unquote undermine exactly. And in particular,

you know, you hear women talk about that. That makes people think that they're not professional. Like it's just it's like lose, lose, right, like you can't when it's also like the vocal equivalent. Is this this idea of like should you lower your voice in order to be taken

seriously like pitch wise, you know which I mean. There's like this classic you know, Margaret Thatcher in the seventies was went to us, you know, like a theater coach who who taught her to speak lower, and then all of a sudden it worked and she ran all of England, you know, and then and then and then the you know, other side of it is that a lot of us have learned how to do some version of talking higher or up speak or whatever in order to get what we want in other contexts where we can all read

the room and tell that like a little bit of unintimidating, don't worry, I'm fine, is going to get us what we want more. And you know, there are benefits to both their drawbacks. But it's like we have so many more tools at our disposal then we sometimes think we do. And you know, obviously there's just a lot of emotional ship wrapped up in that. But if we can you know, what you said about finding the aspect of it that's

constructive is probably really useful for people. I mean, like, obviously we can just like shout sexism, or we can say every single one of us needs to adapt to every room we're in if we want to, you know, get what we can the most out of that room, right exactly, And it's deciding. I mean that back to that quote you gave at the beginning, or right at the beginning, you know what parts you want to make visible,

right and what's not negotiable. I mean that's also what we're talking about, exactly exactly exactly, call call call the bullshit when you see it and decide, you know what you're going to take from it to better yourself so that you are more effective, not so that other people are more accepting of you because of their own insecurities or issues or bias, c s or whatever. Yeah, like, are you just enabling their ship or are you actually

helping yourself and helping them? And then it's a team effort and you can convince yourself of that aspect of it, and then you know what, when you have a little bit more power, loosen it a little exactly is all

the stuff? Is all the real stuff. And we're not even talking about how to like actually breaks the class ceiling, but we also are we actually as Yeah, it's just like and also like like ourselves at the end of the day and like, Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back and find out whose voice you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay, we're back, So, Mina, who have you brought in for us? I have brought in She's sitting right here next to me,

just kidding. I wish social distancing, social distancing in my dreams. Um Alicia Garza, who is a dear friend of mine. She's the co founder of Black Lives Matter and is the founder of Black Futures Lab, And it's just one of the most extraordinary people. I know. Yes, I'm so glad you brought her in. I've been just like relishing, going back and listening to a bunch of her stuff. I pulled a little a little something here, Okay, here's Alicia.

I simultaneously feel grateful and exhausted. Um and tender. Tender is the word I would use. Um, But I'm very fortunate to have squad that has my back and um. One of the blessings of having been an organizer for almost twenty years is that I am never allowed to forget where I come from ever ever. Ah Me, She's such She's such a lesson in how to be in the middle of your thoughts in front of a crowd. Exactly what she said is sort of who I mean.

It's she's like, it's she's tender. She there's something so calming about her and almost there's like this teacher quality to her sometimes right, like a patient kind almost like protective teacher who has your back, but who's also brilliant. And it's just like you just want them to keep talking at you, right, and just like keep talking totally.

There's this moment she says at the end that's like right, and she does it a lot in this whole thing where it's like it's a it's a it's a real check in with this room full of hundreds of people. This is a this is at a University of Chicago, um, like, you know whatever, some academic uh discussion, and it's an answer to a question from the audience. But she's like whenever she says that, right, she's not seating the floor,

she's not saying I'm done. She's just like she's so she's so a new you know, you know her personally, it sounds like this is this is just I mean, I can tell, but it sounds like this is real.

But she's just like so in possession of herself absolutely and being able to do that in front of an audience, you know, I mean, as she says it in that little clip, which is partly why I like that clip, the sort of lifelong community organizing, you know, I get the impression, and it's beautiful to see her in front of a crowd, not just in a you know, commencement address or a rally type of context, but something like this.

It's sort of gentler. Uh, She's sort of like it's the same thing of I'm me and you're you, but actually we're us that I think all of us can learn from. Yeah, it's just sort of like total exactly acceptance, and you just feel like wrapped in a blanket when she talks. There's a there's an inclusivity, that's what I mean. She's also like talking about really tough things and not necessarily saying like, you know, we're all the same, but there's a place from us and a lightness because of

that inclusivity. I feel like, because she's saying, you know what I mean exactly, and she really draws you in. Oh it's I came across the Martin Luther King quote recently that made me think of her. He said, a genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus, but a molder of consensus. Absolutely. Yeah, Like people don't even know that they're being kind of drawn into I don't know if that's right. That doesn't that sounds doesn't sound right,

that sounds manipulative. But like, you know, it's like it's like before you know it, you're like, well, obviously what she said makes sense, right, obviously, right, right, Well, And there's it's work, it's your molding. It's a process, right, it's not just like talking at people from the audience. It feels like that exactly right, right. And also I will say, you know, partly what she's talking about, but partly literally her voice in that in that clip I

pick sounds really tired, you know. But I also think that sometimes we think that we have to um like this, this perfect polished voice, and she's a fantastic example that like polish is not the thing man, you know, absolutely, Yeah, it's hard doing the work she's doing is hard, being that connected, being that engaged, not not into it. But it costs, as you said, it costs something. Yeah, there's labor,

emotional labor. Yeah, right, there's something. So you know that thing we all know, but we have to sort of figure out how to do of vulnerable actually is powerful.

She's really like doing with her actual voice exactly. And I think, you know, I think we're all of us are getting probably more comfortable with that now in terms of this moment that we're in right something, this crisis, this emergency, and everybody is experiencing something in some way, and UM to pretend otherwise is you know, it's going to be very obviously you're pretending. Yeah, exactly, and it's

just not gonna you know, resonate with people. That's right, That's right, And thank you for mentioning that, because it's you know, obviously present for all of us right now for this conversation, for everything, you know, for trying to keep our kids on the other side of the door, you know, for whatever exactly the little things, um that

we have to do, like hiding in our own houses. Yeah, I really think that honesty, especially when it comes to our vulnerability or however we want to however we want to think about the stuff that's that's feeling hard for us, is a real strength right now because it is a connector.

I mean, you know, to to to think, to act otherwise is disconnecting in this time when like we all just we all just near like so learning for connection, whether it's because people are living you know, at home alone, or whether we're just trying to say, like high high world out there, are you feeling what I'm feeling, And the fact that we can, like all in the entire world say yes is such a moment we should ride and not try to fight, you know, right, Yeah, absolutely, Well,

on that note, thanks for writing writing writing it with me, I mean this is such a delight. Yeah, thank you. I love that you joined me in the virtual space that is the podcast. Thank you to Mina for joining me. You can find out more about her in the show notes or on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com. Please also go to the site if you have any awesome quotes or any questions you want to submit for my next mail dig episode. What is getting in the

way of your voice? I always want to know? Also feel free to send d M s or voicemail moos to our Instagram at Permission to Speak Pod, where we're posting a bunch and join the community. Thanks as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I Heart Radio, my family and cohort and all of you. We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land that used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us D A C dot us to

learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is a production of My Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark ten For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, listen on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. H