How to Rise with Former Rep. Katie Hill

is Katie Hill. She was a congresswoman. She won her campaign for US Congress along with AOC and the blue wave of women and outsiders in the mid terms, and was seen as a star of the new class. She was thirty one years old. She had flipped a forever read district just north of l A. She had run the most millennial campaign ever, according to Vice, and was a true inspiration for progressives, for the queer community, for

women everywhere. But then nude photos were leaked and allegations were made, and she was called both a victim and a predator, and rather than stay in fight, she surprised everyone, including Speaker Pelosi, and decided to resign last November, less than a year after she was sworn in. I wanted to have Katie on. First of all, because um, I followed her campaign in its early days. There's some amazing activist organizations in l A that did fundraising and canvassing

for her and asked her tough questions. Shout out to momitivist and FIA and hang out to good hi guys, UM. But also I wanted to have her on because you know, she had the sort of public experience so that I think we all year losing total control of the narrative

sexist double standards. She contemplated suicide, and she ultimately went out with the biggest of bangs, delivering a resignation speech on the floor of Congress in which she said, quote, yes, I'm stepping down, but I refused to let this experience scare off other women who dared to take risks, who dared to step into this light, who dared to be powerful. It might feel like they won in the short term, but they can't in the long term. We cannot let them.

You guys, we swear a lot in this conversation we talk about a lot of the real shit, from how she decided that she could actually run to be a congress person with no prior political experience in the first place, to how she prepared that fateful speech and what happened after, including her new book and her political action committee that

she started to fulfill the promise of that speech. And um, she may or may not have had two glasses of rose while we talked, which was honestly so perfect, and we are now rethinking the whole show to record during happy hour. Moving forward. Um, guys, this is Katie help. I actually want to start by just going back back to what made you decide you wanted to run? Sure if you had kind of like an aha moment, Oh absolutely, I mean the aha moment was well, start back at

the beginning. So I was never planning on running for office in the first place. I thought maybe i'd do something in politics. At one point, I thought I wanted to be a speechwriter. Um, but I wasn't. That's interesting. Well, probably just did that at one point because I was an English major and he's like, you, you could write speeches for politicians, and um, and I thought that would be cool, But I yeah, that wasn't really something you're like,

what if the politician in question is me? But like that just wasn't really on the radar, you know what I mean. It just wasn't really something that occurred to me until um, until much later. So I was. But I just mean like having the speech writing you know, ability, or having having that as a as a concept, you know, a lot of obviously a lot of politicians sort of need help with like how to put a speech together.

And I'm sure that you know a lot of people don't know this, but the last speech that I gave I wrote completely on my own. I didn't have anybody else help with it. I didn't feel like I could, so needless to say, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about how you prepped for that. But yeah, when I started, I was basically I was the executive director of this huge nonprofit called PATH People Assisting Homeless.

It was the largest homeless services organization in California. It's gotten even bigger since I left, and I'm really proud of the work they do. But um, when you know, so, things were going really well on what we were doing. We had advocated for these ballot measures at the local level UM in the city and County of Los Angeles that would have a huge impact on peop and we

were successful. But at the same time that those passed, Trump won, and I, like women across the country, was absolutely horrified, and specifically for the work that we were

doing with the nonprofit that I was with. We knew that having a Republican House and Senate and having Donald Trump as president meant that everything we did was in jeopardy and the people we served, the most vulnerable people in our communities, were at serious risk for literally their lives um because of you know, how social programs would be cut and how healthcare they were. You know, the first thing on their agenda was to try and get rid of the Affordable Care Act, which is which had

literally saved people from dying on the streets. And I said, okay, I need to do something. So, you know, obviously, clothing the House was our next electoral opportunity, and I thought, okay,

I'll get involved in that somehow. So I literally go to Swing Left UM the website and I type in my zip code and much to my surprise, the nearest Swing district was the was the one that I'd spent my entire life in where I still lived and where I had grown up, and you know, having grown up there, I thought it was going to forever be a Republican stronghold.

It was, um. You know, it's got Santa Clarita and Semi Valley and the Antelope Valley and these are places, you know, southern California that have long histories of being staunchly Republican and and you know, often very racist. And yeah, it's got a storied past. But so when I saw that, I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. There's actually a chance to flip my own district. And so I was like, I'm gonna get involved in a campaign.

But sure enough, this is this isn't about late January early February of at and um, and then I looked at who was running and and no one had officially announced yet. But the person who was the most likely too was the guy who had run the last time and had lost, even though he lost by six, even though Hillary Clinton had won by seven. So I, uh, well, A, I want to support a woman if I can, and be I don't think this guy can win. He wasn't from our district. And I thought he had a lot

of other issues as a candidate. So I'm complaining about this, right And I'm saying I want a woman, who are you complaining to a number of different friends and mentors and in mainly in the in my workspace and um. And so finally one of them said to me, She's like, Kay, you're complaining an awful lot about this. Why don't you run? And I'm like but and so then I thought, you know, And so I thought about it overnight, and then the next morning in the shower, I was, you know, contemplating this.

And it was in the shower that I was like, fuck it. If if Donald Trump can become president of the United States, why can't I run for Congress? You know what I mean. Like it was kind of one of those moments you're like, I've been successful. I've done

all these things. I matched this profile of a person that should be electable in my district, that grew up there, that's the daughter of a police officer and a nurse and put themselves through school and da da da da, and and so I remember getting out of the shower and thinking this is totally crazy, but I'm gonna see

I'm gonna see about this. So I texted her, the woman who had suggested it to me, and she was she worked for an an Elle County supervisor and had been involved in politics and advocacy for a lot longer than I had. And so I'm like, so, what if I actually do this? Like where would I even start? And um, So we got together for coffee and I followed a few other different random connections and very quickly, uh, it came to fruition. And um, then my life changed

in a pretty big way. So you know, there's so many statistics and you've referenced them recently about you know, women holding themselves back, that that that we worry about our age, we worry better experience, we were better credentials. Like how did you talk to yourself about that specifically, because obviously you're on the young end. Yeah, well, honestly,

I mean that was out. Was the big thing is that I'd always I've always been the young person, right, I always just in my career, I had advanced early, and so, um, I had to get comfortable with being the young person in the room and having more authority in power than you know, as usual for somebody my age. And having to be taken seriously when most people that you're negotiating with or are trying to bring along to your side or whatever, even supervising or sometimes decades older

than you. So I had probably more confidence around that than than many would, just because I had to grapple with it earlier. But I swear the biggest thing was that that I saw what is supposed to be a politician does not matter anymore. The rules around all of that have been shattered if this guy can become president, not in a good way, not in the way that

we want them to be shattered, but they are. And so I thought, um, you know that there is no reason that I should be held back or that anyone else should be held back if they're running for the right reasons, when this guy who was running totally for the wrong reasons managed to get elected. So you know, because I guess it was that kind of rationalization that

was like the big push for me. Yeah, But I mean, and also there's just you know, that's that's relevant for all of us who are thinking about stepping into any type of leadership position, is like, you know, if we want to see better leaders, maybe it's us, And maybe the experience that we've had in the rooms we've had just trying to be taken seriously is actually, you know, in the case in your case, that is actually what

leadership experience or politics, you know, political experience is. It's not having run for office before, it's having had to work to you know, have authority in a room. Yeah.

And and also I think that people who have worked on the front lines of any you know, social issue have this lived experience and just this practical experience of how the laws and and the the ways that people govern actually impact um, you know, day to day lives and and for me specifically the most vulnerable people in our communities and um And So when I have young people frequently asked me, you know, if I want to get into politics, if I'm thinking I want to be

a politician later, what do you recommend I do with these are college and high school students. I'm like, the best thing that I can recommend is to work in a nonprofit, work in in the whatever you're passionate about. It could be the environment, it could be women's issues, it could be you know, whatever kind of social services. But do the hands on work and and make sure that you're doing it for the right reason, and that will prepare you for whatever you want to do in politics.

And um, I just think that that's so much more applicable than going to law school and doing some constitutional stuff. So and getting further and further away from you know that you're going to be representing, literally, but such good advice. It's such it's so like, it's so practical. I wonder also if you could tell us, because you are the

first congress person I have had on this show. Oh nice, thank you for that, right, a little bit about what the actual experience was like when you were working there. I want to know us specifically in terms of, you know, the group of you guys who came in and like what kind of conversations you had quietly as you were sort of trying to understand what the power dynamics were. Yeah, so that was a that was fascinating and that was so exciting. And um, you know, so we got elected

on November what was it November? I can't even remember the days anymore totally, even more now than before. But we got the day after we got elected, those of us who knew that we we'd won the next day, Um, we got an invitation and we've even gotten this before of if you win, hold these dates because you're immediately going to go to orientation. And it was the following week, so it was the election was on a Tuesday. You needed to be in Washington by the following monday for

starting your orientation. So UM, basically that was that was when it begins, and you you go and you meet all these other people had who had won and who and so many of us were you know, we weren't politicians at all, right, this was our first run for any kind of office, and so we were we had no idea what we were doing, but we felt like we were in a we were very much in there with a mandate to um to kind of shake things up and to do things differently and too fucking save

the country from this monster. And um. So there was that excitement and that energy, and we had all these women who had won, and many of the women knew each other from the campaign trail because Emily's List had supported us, and so I got to know a bunch of the women before even the primaries were over. And then that continued and then those of us on that were called red to Blue, those of us who were

in the highly competitive Republican seats. UM were we also, you know, we're around each other all the time during the campaigns, so you know, it wasn't all unknown. But then there was this kind of mixing of everybody who had come from these blue districts, these solid blue districts, and you know, there were sixty of us, and you go into this orientation and you're just completely bombarded by

so much information. One of the pieces of information is that you have to basically elect these leaders for all kinds of different positions before we ever are even sworn in. And so we were getting sworn in on January three, and UM, so this is this is the middle of November. At this point, we found out that there was going to be a freshman representative to leadership, which was it was a relatively new position, but it was one that UM the Speaker designated for the freshman class to have

UM to have a voice at the table. And that's you know, that's a big deal, especially since we were coming in there. I think many of us thinking we were going to have to have basically a big old fight with the establishment to even have our voices heard. So we thought great, that's exciting. But we also said there are sixty freshmen, which is a quarter of the more than a quarter of the of the Democratic caucus,

and so I mean, that's a big number. So a couple of us made the argument that if we're a quarter of the Democratic Caucus, we should have more than one seat at the table. So we made the case that it should be too, and Janah Goose from Colorado and I, um, we basically said we'll run together. And it was it was, you know, it was pretty like pretty good political maneuvering for very early on. And um, like it was you know, that was that was a

lot of fun. But also we I wanted to be at that table if I was going to have the opportunity, I wanted to be in the room with Nancy Pelosi and everything like that. And so got we got to and um and but then it was then the responsibility that you have is becomes huge. It becomes you are

the liaison between leadership and the freshman class. You were the one who is supposed to take whatever the freshman classes feeling and saying and want wants to prioritize and reflect that in these leadership meetings and Um, it was. I mean, you were literally representing two different bodies. But yeah and um yeah, your constituents and the class, and

that's not they didn't always align exactly right. You had to kind of balance that, um, And I often also had to say, you know, this is the overwhelming view of people in the freshman class, but like it's not necessarily mine. So I had to kind of balance that. But I learned so much by being in that position,

just in terms of how the deals are made. What uh, you know, the history of these people who have been in Congress for so long, and you know the speaker Nancy Pelosi especially, just just in awe of how she did things. And this is the beginning of a new Congress where Trump is finally going to be UM held back a little bit because the Republicans obviously for two years it left him completely unchecked. So it was it was really an incredible time, and I'm very lucky and

glad that I was there. I am too, thank you. Okay, so you're resignation speech, I want to talk about, like practically speaking, I mean, you referenced having written it yourself, you said more than you needed to, you know, you said very boldly I'm leaving. But we have men who have been credibly accused of intentional acts of sexual violence and remain in boardrooms, on the Supreme Court, in this very body, and worst of all, in the Oval office.

I want to know, like how you prep for that, especially, I mean obviously during such a like insanely heightened emotional time, But what was your thought process about what you wanted to say? So I had um and I wrote about this in the book, but literally the day after I well, I decided to resign, was in this dark depth of depression and then, UM, you know, contemplated very seriously contemplated suicide. And when I decided not to, when I when I

got out of that space. Um, the next day was when I when I woke up and decided I needed to write this speech because and when I was going to give it and everything like that, and I knew I wanted to give it. I wanted to make sure that I that I actually gave a speech. I didn't need to give a speech, right that was, but I wanted to and um, and so I got up and I just started I just started on it, and a lot of it just came out right. It was just. But but I knew a number of the points that

were really important to me. UM, one of which was that I was you know, I wanted to reflect that I was sorry, that I was sorry for everything that was sorry for. I was sorry for what I've done. I was sorry for stepping down. I was sorry for letting people you know, uh, letting people down, and and

my responsibility for it. But I also wanted to point out that this is you know, the expectations that we have for women and the and I think the pressure that I felt, even from myself to resign is very different from from those that you know, we have towards men. And that's an example, if I had by Donald Trump, who has been accused by over twenty five women of sexual misconduct, and you know that that probably runs a

lot deeper than we even know. So UM, I felt like it was important to kind of to reflect on that and to and to say, you know, I'm stepping back now for a number of reasons, including that I did not want to be a distraction. I didn't want to be used as a tool. I didn't want to be weaponized against my colleagues or or a distraction, just as the impeachment hearings exactly. But I also I wanted people to know that I that I recognized where there's an injustice right and that I that I'm going to

find a way to to continue to fight that. And my role is different, but I don't want I wanted people to know that there them having worked on my campaign or UM supported me in whatever way, that I that I was going to make sure that it was still worth something. It wasn't in vain. Yeah, I know. And I mean we're going to take a quick break in a second, and then we're going to talk about,

you know, exactly what you have done. But before we do, I want to just I want to linger here for like, you know, this is on on some sort of sort of fundamental level. This podcast is about public speaking and our sense of power when we stand up to talk, and I wish I would I would love you to talk about like what the physical feeling was of like making yourself walk out there, what it felt like to actually,

you know, give that speech. And also if you've listened back and if you have any kind of things that come up, you know, yeah, yeah, actually I have not listened back to it, and it's in full. I've seen the snippets that people sometimes replay before I, um, you know, before I come onto a show, or that I've I've just caught parts of, but um, I have not sat and listened to the entire thing. And honestly, I think

that that would be really hard to do. Um, But I mean, I also work in Hollywood, and like actors don't like to look back at themselves either, totally. Yeah, I want to know about like what was going through head. I can't remember how you decided to take a breath when you did, you know, like what it was to actually step out there, because the version that you delivered was really even Yeah, you know what I mean. And

I don't think that was an accident. I really did feel like I had to completely steal myself for it. And I've described it this way before, but you know, I put on that I'd never worn that red dress before, my mom had bought it for me, and um, I was waiting for the right occasion to wear it, and like that was the not caasion that it was intended. But yeah, but but it was meaningful to me. It

was defiant. It was in a way that I felt I felt like I identified a lot with Hester Prynne in the Scarlet Letter, and I felt like it was my own kind of version of that. Um. But it was also I'm not hiding away. I'm not want to wear a demure or neutral color. I'm gonna I'm gonna be bold on my way out and um. And so I put that on it if it felt like my battle uniform, and and the red lipstick on, I put

the makeup on. I did the whole thing. I went through the routine of you know, what you do every day as a woman getting ready for something, but I made it it felt very intentional, like those those steps of getting ready felt or were very intentional. And and that whole time, I'm like psyching myself up for whatever this mission is. And for me, I knew that my performance in that moment was um. You know, it was the last thing I was going to do in Congress.

It was the last thing I was going to do as a sitting member of Congress, and it needed to show who I was and what this meant going forward, and what this meant to so many people in different capacities, right the ones, you know, the people who had looked up to me, the people who had worked on it, my family and my staff, and I felt like I had a great deal of responsibility to to do it right. So I got picked up by one of my staff members and like literally and picked up in a car

to go there. So that was the first time I had seen him in a while. And and his name's Paul. He was just he's just phenomenal and um, anyway, he

gave me some like I don't know. There was something about that car, right, and it's like a seven minute car ride from where I was living to Capitol Hill that felt calming that he was like, well, you're ready, and I'm like, I guess so, and um, and was just it was just something about that, you know, being there, and like both of us kind of we knew we were gonna have to have this walk into Capitol Hill where all the cameras were going to be and all

the all the photographers and and sure enough, they've used that photo of me walking into Capitol Hill with Paul in the background like a million different places. And I didn't want to show any kind of weakness in that moment. And so when I went to give the speech, you know, I had the same thing in mind so I walked up, I took a deep breath and delivered it. I knew that I had to speak more slowly than UM than

you normally do. I didn't want to my voice to crack, and it felt like a you know, that was my moment, right, like, that was the moment that I had to I just had to get right. What do you think would have happened if you had shown more weakness? I feel like we all struggle with like what, you know, what is this version of tough that we need to show the world.

I mean, I think you're probably right in that moment, but you know, also for you, yeah, well I think that was part of it, right, is that I had I felt like I had shown so much weakness on my own separately, right like I and not even not even at like fault for that, but just that I kind of exhausted my emotions. I had gone as far as I could with them and UM, and at that point it was it was like a it was like a mission, it was a it was a duty. It

was this. It was the point of it, and the point of the speech was to show that in spite of everything I was, I felt strong and I was going to continue to do work, even though it wasn't in the way that I intended to. So I don't I think that showing vulnerability, showing you know, emotions in

all kinds of different situations, is appropriate and encouraged. And there have been plenty of times where i've you know, I think even the when you talked about seeing me at that first event after I think I cried while I was talking there. Um, So I don't have an issue with that, but it was the most important thing for me at that moment, was was defiance, And because of that, that's why I wanted to you know, I didn't want to. I didn't want to show anything else.

And truthfully, I felt that at the time, right, Like I I felt like I had internalized that well. And it also strikes me. I mean you you had been put in a vulnerable position, so it didn't probably feel like allow me to show you more vulnerability, right right? Yeah, Yeah, that's a good one. Okay, We're gonna take a quick break and then come back and talk about your book and your back. We're back. I want to talk about

She Will Rise and your hack Her Time. You've said that your inspiration came from asking yourself, how can I fight for the issues I believe in and actually change policy, and more importantly, how can I change the power dynamics and change the face of power. I mean, this podcast

is all about changing the sound of power. So, like, obviously, you know resonate on your team, and I know you had reelection money when you resign, and so this was like a sort of an obvious progression, or maybe it wasn't obvious, But can you talk about what the thought process was and why this pack is different than other groups that help encourage women to run. Yeah. So, so members of Congress who resign or who lose or um for one reason or another are no longer running for

reelection um. They have two different choices. One is that they can just leave the money there, and many do because if you ever run for federal office, no matter how long it's been, you can basically reactivate it and use it for your next run. So I had I had people and you know, at this point you're talking to campaign lawyers and uh to just kind of try and figure out everything because it's like a total change and everything. Um it just kind of the emotional level.

So so they were kind of explaining this stuff to me. And but I but I knew that I didn't want to do that. I felt like it was disingenuous, um to the people who I just felt like I needed to do something meaningful with with that money, for all the people who had supported me. And you had like a million dollars, Yeah, it was a lot. And um. You know, I've been one of the most successful fundraisers before I was elected and then after for my re election, I was, you know, of of all of us. Why

do you think that is, Katie. That's a good question. I don't really know, I think and I've told people this before when when I've given women advice on fundraising, I say that you can't feel like you're asking for the money for yourself. You have to feel like you're asking for it for a greater cause. And and you are you you know, you're not running for office for yourself. You're running for your office to do something with it. I mean, actually, this is probably a second half of

the answer about being a nonprofit Parson. Yeah, exactly, So that that was exactly what some things I've said, is that you working in the nonprofit sector, you also get very comfortable asking for money and um. And you know, women are naturally we're naturally not as good a fundraisers as men because of we're trained not to do that. We're trained that it's rude, We're trained that, you know, we're trained to be kind of uncomfortable talking about things.

We don't want to ask for stuff for ourselves. Money is literally been talking about money exactly and um. And so when you're in the nonprofit side, and I worked in development and fundraising for a long time, so so for me, it was very easy, like I'm not running for office because this is fun or enjoyable or easy. I'm running for office because I felt like I needed to do something. And uh. And so you know, when I'm asking for money, it's not to line my pockets.

It's to go to this thing, right. And it was the same exact way when I was doing it for the nonprofit sector. You know, I'm asking for it because

we're working on this really important mission. So that's what I tell people is that you know, you don't And that was also still something nonetheless that I had to I had to practice and learn and get better at um as a candidate because it's still felt different at first because you did feel like you were asking for it for yourself, and especially when you have to start with your personal circle, because you don't have anyone else to ask, like, yeah, I'm asking my my freaking high

school friends for fifty dollars. That's that's the hardest time to to start raising that initial money, which is also part of the reason that I started her time. Because the initial point to get to you know, viability, or to be taken seriously as a candidate, or to um, you know, to to really be somebody who's seen as competitive, you have to raise some initial money. And if you're a new candidate, if you're a first time candidate, if you're not coming from a political background, if you're not

coming from money, that is really hard. I've been there. I know how hard that is. So what I had asked you is how how your pack is different. And I know you've talked about going after candidates who's who might be the or risks, but like they're better better fit for their own district. Yeah. Yeah, So that was the other pieces that many organizations do see packs, etcetera.

I won't get involved in primaries. They even the women's organizations a lot of times don't want to get involved in primary if it's a woman on woman race, or they don't want to get involved if the person doesn't if it doesn't. This is this is a total common theme, is that if it if the person seems like they're not gonna win, like they don't have much of the chance, there's no regardless of if they're the person who should yep, exactly, and so they just don't take that. They don't take

that bet. They don't want to. Um, and I get it right, you're you know you you raise money, you want to spend it in ways that are going to be effective. Well, the way I see it is that we're filling a gap that there are many organizations who will fund you once you get to a certain point and help you make it from you know, here to here, but there are very few people who will help you make it from here to here. Um. For anybody listening, that was the second one was a lot smaller of

a gap. Yeah. Sorry, I realized it's not a the gestures were maybe not so helpful, but um, but yeah, that's it's it's kind of like if it were on a if it were on a curve, then and I'm still using hand gestures now, but not words. I know, we should just put this up on my hands. I've been thinking that a lot, by the way, because I started this podcast and then I'm like, wait, but people have told me my whole life that I'm so expressive with my face, and I'm like, I just cut off

the whole side of mine. You know it. Well, I started making when I started doing all these podcasts, I started asking the person who's helping me schedule and I'm like, can you tell me if they're supposed to be video involved or not? Because a few times I showed up thinking that there was no video and yes, and then I'm like, oh wait, right right right, I actually I put on lipstick, but it's only because of you. It's

for you. This is my thank you so much? It totally um so yeah, that that's that's kind of the point behind it is that like what we'll take risks and and you know, the people I'm fundraising from, I'm not trying to make the promises that all the candidates are gonna win, that we're going to have this track record of you know, I don't even care if we

if half of our candidates win. I think that it's still successful if if we get any wins, and if we're setting these people up to win down the road, or if we're making a dent in the electoral turnout. That's the other thing is that once one organization with a certain amount of credibility gets in, others will be like, oh, they think it's possible then, and then they start to get in and then they literally become less of a

long shot. Yeah, exactly exactly a huge kind of gap in what needs to happen and that you're able to do as a pack. That's not just about directly giving money, as you can mobilize, and so there's a there's a real we Women are a very strong voting block democratic women,

especially women vote more than men. But that is really like at the older ages that we've seen that and women at the older ages are not necessarily inclined to vote for other women, and so women as a voting block from like the ages of eighteen to forty five, we want to figure out how to mobilize them not just to show up in a presidential election, but to show up in every single election and specifically vote for women because they're women, and that we want actually we

actually want representation, We want to get to parity, and it's not it is it. We don't have any shame in saying that you should vote for women because they're women, Whereas that's I think that's what historically been kind of like a a taboo thing to say, and even women have shied away from it, like I don't want to support just because a woman. I'm like, yeah, you should support women because they're women. There's all kinds of all kinds of research to back that up. Plus there's just

the fact that we need to have equal representation. I think it's so genius that at the most basic level, what you're interested in is taking bigger risks finding people who might be bigger risks but worth it because I feel like you're superpower because of what you went through. Is um like not being risk averse, Like you know, shitty stuff went down, so like what is there to be afraid of? I mean, you know, there continues to be because life is complicated, but like, you know, there's

something really real about that. And it makes me think of this quote I have from your book. You said women continue to feel unsafe in both the real world and online when we are assaulted. Even from the time where little girls, our minds are already warped to the point that we are afraid it's our fault if a man hurts us. We worry that we won't be believed or that we will feel shamed if we come forward. And those concerns are founded in harsh truths that, my friends,

is the patriarchy winning. That's misogyny thriving at the most fundamental level. If we can't even have a basic expectation of safety, how can we claim our power? Yeah? You know, I mean my question, of course is so how do we claim our power? And your whole book is sort of an answer to that, And I think talking about parody is a massive, massive part of that. Yeah, And and I think that's exactly it is, that all of these things kind of coincide and that you're not going

to have or depending on each other. I guess right. Men don't understand that same kind of risk that we feel. Are that that that vulnerability that we feel around physical safety, They just aren't. They're not exposed in that way. There. I remember from the time that I was, you know, very young, you're taught as as a girl, you don't go out by yourself. You don't. You can't ride your bike alone. You don't, you know what I mean, Like you're you. Boys have just all this freedom because they're boys,

and because they just don't. They're taught that you're you're strong, you're you're not going to be a victim. But girls, it's the opposite. You need to watch out for everything. And so I think that I think that just having grown up with a totally different experience, there are many men that I think are sympathetic to that who want women to be safe, who who who think about it

in this like savior kind of mentality. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but also it is not is not a It might be more of a sympathetic thing than an empathetic thing. And it's not going to get prioritized in the same way um as people who really get it. It's not gonna turn into legislation that that translates into the real world, and that translates as meaningfully if you if you haven't been raised with exactly the kinds of concerns that we're trying to address. So and this is

why you're saying vote for women because of women. It's not because of the vagina part of the woman experience experience, and that we have so many shared experiences as women. I wonder how, I mean, especially for those of us who follow you on Twitter, how like humor sort of please its way because obviously we were just talking about it's like so dark, right, and obviously you've talked really publicly about suicide. You've talked about the connection between statistics

about suicidal thoughts and cyber exploitation. And then on the other hand, like you know, you're are fucking hilarious, thank you, and your tweets are like, so you just recently said, um, I had a few former colleagues text me today and say I'm so jealous. You can say whatever you want now, and I'm just like, well, and then a little stroke there's a trade. Yeah, yeah, that was real. Like I actually,

I don't know what I think. Earlier in the day, I had I had used a couple of curse words, and so people a couple of my my old friends from Congress saw that and we're like, we're like, I wish I could say that. And I think a few people who well lots of people who commented were like they should be able to say whatever they mean to, and and I should have. I should have clarified they weren't. They're not saying, they're not not saying what they mean.

They just are not as unfettered with it. I mean literally politics, right, I mean there are reasons we have to be politics when we're in whatever employment situations, and when we're not, we don't. Yeah, And now I'm like, I don't, I don't get your your own Yeah, exactly, I've got nothing. I've got nothing holding me back from that. And I'm like, if I ever do run again, then it this is me, truly, you know. I had at least Hogan recently, the president. They were all so wonderful

right of her. And one of the things she said when I asked her, like what people should really be doing to prepare to run for office besides you know, learning how to fund raise, besides the practical stuff, And she was like, think about being proud of your life. M M. That's great advice. Yeah, right, because just to sell it, you have to sell your back story more than anyone, right. You need to. You need to be able to translate that to why people should support you.

You need to be able to translate that to um, you know, how you're going to do a good job, and and holding that pride and bragging. We are not naturally inclined to brag about ourselves, and you have to. And in order to brag about yourself, you have to be proud of yourself. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I have a book deal and I'm also writing a book and it's about the same stuff. Thank you. As as permission to speak, I mean, the whole idea right

of how do we give ourselves permission? And part of it is that, you know, inevitably we brag quote unquote better when it's on behalf of other people. I mean, it's everything you already talked about, like when you when you get up to speak, you're not really in almost no circumstances. Are you just doing it for you right? Right? But we forget that when all the eyes are on us and we're like, oh, I'm asking for money, I'm the one doing the thing, you know. Yeah, we must reconnect.

But there are actual studies that show that there's a fundamental difference between the motivations for why men run for office and why women run for office, and we should take we should take pride in this too, that when and this is a study of members of Congress from several years ago. Every member of Congress was asked why they ran, what what made them decide to do it, and the majority of the women said that they did it because they you know, they wanted to do something

good for their community. They um, they wanted to help people, things like that, that's kind of compassionate descriptors. The majority of men said that they had always wanted to be a politician. And so when you talk about like doing it for other people, we have that, we have that innately, We have that, you know ingrained in us as truly our motivation. And that's not necessarily it for guys. Nancy Pelosi does a great job of saying this, and she

doesn't she doesn't separated based on gender. I think she's she's still loved the generation who would never want to say vote for a woman because she's a woman. Um. But she says that you know, great candidates and members or politicians or whatever know their why. And to be able to to be effective, you have to know your why. You have to know what motivates you, and you have to be able to share that with other people and I just think that that's something that we are naturally

better at. And I saw, you know, I was with other candidates on the trail over and over and over again, and you really did see like they were just not as many men who could tell the same compelling stories about why because and I guess it's because I don't think that they had as good a reason. I just

don't think they did. Whereas you had these women get up and they were talking about how their mom, you know, died because she didn't have health insurance, and they saw the Affordable Care Act that was in jeopardy, and they decided that they had to run against their sitting congressman

because he wouldn't host a talent hall about it. And you just like that amazing documentary that Alexandra was in, was the other three women to exactly final question this is from my friend Jessica, who was one of the people who went door to door for you, and I asked him if she had any questions, and she wanted to know what you thought about your if your voice, if the way you expressed yourself has changed as going from a you know, a private citizen to campaigning to

you know, obviously being a congress person and then sort of being an advocate. If you feel like you've noticed sort of a change, I mean you've also grown a literally you know age during that. Yeah, if you if you think about that and how you can help us to think about our own evolution, oh for sure. Well, I think part of it is I was comfortable in my skin for what I was before I became a politician. You know, I was confident in my role. I knew

that I was an expert in my field. Um, and so I embraced that and I and I felt confident when I was speaking about that. You know, anytime, if you if you want to talk to me anything about homelessness or housing, I could go into any room with anybody there and know that I was I was an expert. And so getting to that point again as a candidate and having to know enough about all the issues running

for a campaign and running especially in a primary. I gotta tell you, what you have to know about is stuff that you just like Democratic primary voters have zero forgiveness for the fact that you're new. Because I was getting these things thrown at me that I'm like, fucking no, I knew a lot more about policy than I think many people do in in a diverse array of areas. But but certainly I wasn't an expert in everything, and you kind of have to become pretty damn close to

an expert and everything very quickly. And how do you like honor those moment when somebody you know is trying to sort of put you on the spot about for me that's obviously very close to their heart and you're like, yet, literally don't know yet, but that doesn't mean I won't know right exactly. And being able to answer that well and know how to, you know, to come off as as smart and confident but also knowing what you don't know and willing to learn. Is that's a that's a skill.

That's something that you have. You have to kind of learn how to do as a candidate. So there's all kinds of things you have to learn to do as a candidate that you just didn't have to do before um and then as a member it changes entirely because you're now you now have this authority that you didn't have. You you were trying to convince people, you were trying to bring people on board. Now you are the authority and you're trying to you're trying to make people feel better.

You're even going to people who didn't who didn't support you, but who you serve. Now you were elected to serve the entire district, the entire community. Um. You don't get to decide that you're just supporting or you're just helping Democrats. Should we let Donald Trump know that that's how you know, Like it would be great to tell a lot of people that. Um. But so so that was an evolution

and um. And of course again the having to become confident in all these new things that you didn't know before, and also the language that you were able to have on the campaign changes once you become a member of Congress too, because you are more restricted just in terms of there are more considerations now you want your elected official to be like serious and really to to take all of this seriously and to take their job seriously. I mean the rules around that are changing as well.

I mean, you know it's hard to navigate. Yeah, and I don't know that we've all figured that out, but um, or that we've figured it out at all. I mean there's like this this concept of authenticity and then you're like right, and and how do I, you know, actually apply that because there are different versions of me. I'm I do know that when I'm being more formal, it's not totally me, right, totally, yeah, exactly. And and so then I guess now right coming into coming into my

own again, where I am unrestricted. I don't have any other or there's no one else that I'm representing except for the groups that I feel like, the groups of individuals who I feel like I naturally represent that, you know that, whether it's women or just underrepresented people, or

the LGBTQ community or um, you know, young people. I think that there's there're just other ones that kind of naturally happen, and I feel like I'm I'm supposed to be a voice for them, but I can be whatever whatever voice just happens that way, whatever whatever comes to mind. So to me, there's a great deal of of you know, new power that's gained that way. I'm just gonna say what I want to say, and um, you know, some

people won't like it. Like every time I use a curse word, I have people be like, I really wish you wouldn't talk like that, or I cringe every time, you you know, use the vernacular. I've read that comment the other day. I wonder if you were a man if I'm sorry it just happen to podcast. But yeah, yeah, no, but and even I mean, we should take a quick break and then would come back and find out who

you brought in for us. But I also want to say, like, even you know, I heard your your Madaline Brand interview, even just like talking about the gray area nuance of being a victim of abuse and and and like trusting that you can actually be in that gray area and actually think thoughts about how you can improve yourself as well as how you know you can hold other people accountable. I'm like, thank you for being a fucking person. Yeah,

it's not nothing, Katie, that's like huge. Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the reasons I I feel obligated to talk about it because I honestly, and I talked about it in the book too, But I honestly I haven't heard you know, others, even people like Al Franken or others who who you think I want to kind of recover from. I don't know something they've done.

I just I just don't feel like people talk about it, So I don't know there's really just like the pr spin way of doing things, and then there's like showing up as a person and saying what what feels true? Okay, quick break, we'll be right back. So, um, Katie, who did you bring in for us? Yeah, so I am. I brought in Kamala Harris and we get to see her tonight. So yes, we're recording this on Wednesday at like five o'clock Western Pacific. I mean and m and

she's like going to go on there like any time now. Yes, thank you, I love it. Yeah, No, she was. She was an obvious one for me because I had supported her from the very beginning as for her presidential campaign, and so clearly she was someone who has inspired me for a long time. And I just can't wait to see how she When you talk about evolving and maturing and growing into new roles, this one's just going to

be incredible for her completely. I have a little tiny thirty second clip I'm gonna play for us, and then we're gonna talk about her for just a minute. Great. I specifically wanted to pick a moment with Kamala where she was not on a big stage, not doing a big speech, and not in like prosecutor mode, but actually being conversational. Uh. And I found this amazing interview with her and Sarah Cooper. Do you think that women need to be more like men or do you think men

need to actually be more like women? I'm first of all, the toughest people I've known in my life have been women. So um, and so it's just it's actually just bullshit. Let's just start there. And you know it is. And it's interesting because you know, you think about, um, what there are still myths right about what women can and cannot do, right in spite of what a woman does every day? So good right her. Um, this whole interview with with Sarah Cooper is like so on on the

themes of what we're talking about. I mean, it's so abo how we show up and what the obligations are and aren't and you know how we're sort of all changing. Sarah Cooper asked a really early on in this how we the electorate start voting for people not based on their performance quote unquote, but based on how well they'll

actually lead? Yeah? I like that, you know, so this moment is so lovely, right, I mean she just asked the obvious question, like all this stuff about having to be tough, Is it just that women have to act like men in order to win? Yeah? Yeah, And I think that one of the things that that Kamala has, I think she straddles that. She she's she's at the age where, for a long time, I think you did have to be more like a man, or were expected at least to act more like a man and um.

And so I think she went through a lot of her career like that. I mean, she is a tough as nail as prosecutor. You've seen it. She's she made Brett Kavanaugh cry right but um but but she also has this this very genuine, authentic laugh and um. And she cares about people. And I think that that when you when you are able to find that balance of

authenticity and toughness, that's when we are our strongest. I've definitely felt like their moments when the strength outweighs the warmth, probably because of her prosecutorial ground and how that's like actually, you know, rewarded in those certain rooms. And then it's

lovely to see that. You know, she's a great reminder that we can be different in different rooms, and there it's still us and also, I mean I love what you what you pointed out, which is that like the more the older she gets, the more power she has, the more she also has a little bit more like privilege to spend, and so she can spend it, you know,

calling bullshit when she when she sees it. And ideally we can all do that when we're younger too, But it's like it is easier when you've earned your ship, you know, and totally but also like the times have changed too, and I think that you know, we've we often see that, I think with women from an older you know, older women politicians, how empowered or disempowered they feel about what they can say versus those who are

coming up now. And you know that it's credit to those who forged the path that we're able to have this kind of freedom now and and hopefully we're able to continue pushing that forward as um, you know, for the next generation. Yeah, and I feel like you've forged that path. I mean truly, I really, really really want to thank you for joining us, Thanks for having me.

I'm excited. I have to say, I actually was a little bit nervous because I was, like, I have a bunch of vocal tics that that I've also let get worse because I haven't been doing this. What do you think are your vocal texs? Oh, they're the total so cal things that I have, Like all the time. I do a lot of the not stutters, but kind of I go back and repeat the last word sort of thing. Um, I have the ums as I just did. So, yeah,

those they're different things. I mean, we're this is a very loving space where we talk about all that stuff in the in the context of like, you know, obviously we should feel empowered to whatever exorcize the ticks that don't work for us, but also like embrace the ones that are just representative of our identity. And so often it's just like that exact same um and that exact same you know, sometimes vocal fry comes up that a man can get away with a woman feels like she can't.

And so I'm here to obviously say, like the patriarchy interesting, I'm just curious to get your theory on this. You can use this part or not. But just yesterday I had a a guy here from the neighborhood where I'm visiting who said he had a theory that I I am taken a bit more seriously, like I have an immediate gravitas that as a woman that other women sometimes don't have because I have a naturally deeper voice. And I'm interested if you have any thoughts on that. Look,

that is very stereotypically a thing. You know, There's two different things I want to say. One is our voice is higher, sometimes just because of our natural anatomy, and sometimes because we're us, or we we have sort of gotten habitually to this point where we're are. What comes out sounds like we don't have power. So if we're talking up here, it could just be because of our anatomy, but largely it's not. And so what we're hearing is somebody who's cut themselves off from their sense of power.

That's interesting, right, So if what we're your your voice is not necessarily that low, right, it's not like hi, you know, it's like your god bless what's her name? From them? Right? Um? Right, It's not that, it's that you're actually connected to your to your sense of power. You're breathing your your body. You're embodied, as I like to say, I mean like you're literally using your body. So I sort of don't want to throw women with

higher voices under the bus. But there is something to be said for everybody listening to notice, like, am I really cutting myself off from my sense of power? Do I have chess residence? Or am I just coming? Am I just coming out from up here? So you know, that's that's totally perfect way of describing it. Because I had the person who replaced me at Path. She was my CEO and and then she became the deputy CEO

CEO when I left. Um, she she's tying. She's just five ft maybe five ft one and a hundred pounds, and so she's got a naturally higher voice. But she totally is taken seriously. I think it might take a second longer for people to because she's also blonde and cute and tiny and and pretty and um and so I think it takes her a second longer for people to take her seriously. But when she does start talking,

you know, she is confident. She does have but it is a high pitched voice in it, but I don't think it makes a difference for you know, how she's taken. So and then the other thing is that something that I noticed in uh in your resignation speech, and that you do sometimes, and that I bet comes from the you know, authoritative experience you have had, is it. Sometimes you don't use a huge amount of pitch, so it isn't like a lot of up and downing, which sometimes

shows our vulnerability when we don't want to. Sometimes it's like the swoopy southern California thing. It can sound really girly. I'm all for like using pitch variation, you know, I really want people to feel free. But when we don't and when we need to show some like take me fucking seriously, we often use a little bit less And so I think what he might be hearing is not necessarily the pitch as much as like, I am keeping my voice down here to make it clear that I'm

in charge and I am not, you know, I'm unplappable. Interesting. Interesting, Yeah, I like that. I'll have to tell him this. His theory is a little bit grounded in sexism. Whatever. I mean, like a dude telling you a woman about her voice. I mean, um, Katie, thank you, thank you. Wait, did you actually drink your rose plus ice cube? I've finished the lass of one. While we were talking, and and and very kind and generous soul brought me another one,

so I have no shame anymore. You're chilling. It's like a fifteen now, so we know. But I feel like that's the that's the superpower. You're right that you put it better than me for sure, having no shame, dude, right, it's on your naked pictures are everywhere. You lose shame, Like it's just you can't have it more. It's it's truly what again, But like once you get past once

you get past that, then it it is. It is a bit you know, empowering, and like that's why I decided I was going to take the the name for my podcast that's going to be starting soon that we'll have to circle back and you know, um swap off on or whatever, Oh my god would be draining, but I um, I decided to call it Naked Politics because you know, I think that there's you're taking back the narrative I'm trying to do. And you've and I know

you've talked to Montica Lewinsky as well. Yeah, the times have changed so much in the last I mean even in the last few years. Let alone, I'm like along away. I feel like sometimes deeply hopeful and sometimes like oh shit, am I accidentally being hopeful because really, like we're seeing same patterns happen now for over, you know, but I'm inherently help. I mean, the whole point of my book is like, this is the world that we're heading towards,

as is yours. Yeah, I mean I think I think we have to be hopeful, and I believe it still, And you know, it was something I learned from being in the in the world of trying to solve you know, one of what I think is the most difficult problems in society, which is homelessness. You you're faced with so much difficulty every day, and and in in Congress it's the same thing, right, You see these problems and you're like, fuck, how are we going to solve these? Were so far

away from being able to do it. But you have to have this general hopefulness that like, we're gonna chip away at it as much as we can. We're gonna help one person at a time, We're gonna, um, you know, change this little piece that might have an impact on some people somewhere, and some actions are going to be bigger than others. And that's that's all you can do. We just have to keep going. There's no other option if you if you fall into despair, then what is

the point of anything? Uh time or other drink for um. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you to Katie Hill for joining me. You can find out more about her book and her pack in the show notes or on our website Permission Speak pod dot com. I'm doing I G Lives every Thursday, guys, so join me there tomorrow at Permission to Speak Pod. It's Q and A style, so you know, ask me actual questions or just you know,

watch it afterwards and learn something new. And as always, you can send me d M s at Permission to Speak Pod on Instagram or submit through the website. Let me know what's going on with your boys, let me know if this conversation brought up anything for you. Let me know what you think about women needing to sound tough and strong and like a man to be taken seriously. Thank you to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I

Heart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us d A c dot us US to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak is a production of I heart Radio and Double Vision

Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, listen on the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.