How to Be Yourself with Ashley Nicole Black

some stunning interviews on air. We're gonna link to her Stacy Abrams special, which is brilliant and stands the test of time. She's also one of the head right ters and actors on HBO as a Black Lady's Sketch Show. And if you follow her, you know her twitter feed. Yes, she is the one who tweeted out about um Elizabeth Warren asking if she had plans for her love life and uh Luz responded and we talked about what happened

after that in this conversation. I wanted to have Ashley on because I mean, she's a total comedic genius and she channels her voice on the page on screen, into advice columns, into her own podcast, which is temporarily on hold, but it's awesome and has an amazing backlog. It's called SIP on This with Ashley Nicole Black, and in our conversation, I I really appreciated her take on improv and how it teaches us to be better everything's and her absolutely

unique experience. I would say, uh, leaving a PhD program where she was focused on contemporary minstrelsy to join Second City in Chicago and do improv and sketch, which led her to Hollywood. It's amazing. I should also say we recorded this very early on in the pandemic, when I had just figured out my home studio and had, as it turned out, not quite figured out my WiFi. And that's my caveat on our our timing being a little off. I think she couldn't understand everything I was saying and

was being very gracious about it. But don't worry, I've since fixed the problem. But we held this one back in our archives for a little bit and I decided, you know what, look to share it because she is a wonder. This is Ashley Nicole Black. I read this amazing quote of yours. You said I was a really shy and weird kid. So I think that my parents are happy I have the ability to talk to people

at all. My mom used to literally, you forced me to go outside and I used to prop my book up on the handlebars of my bike and ride in a circle. Yes, I did. And I don't think my parents think that I know it, because they told me. They were like, we're so happy it worked out because you were so weird and we just wondered if you were going to be okay. I mean for all of us waiting here, Um, how do you like? What do you when you think of her and you think of

you now? Do you have trouble like squaring who those two people are or does it seem like it's a completely linear progression from that girl with the handlebars? Um, it is a completely linear progression. I think when I was a kid, I was like a really smart kid, like hi, I q low eq. I didn't like understand what was happening with people. So I would like often be like thinking really hard about something and then just start a conversation in the middle of that thought process.

And my parents had to teach me like you gotta say hello to people and where they are and then start the beginning of the conversation to bring them along with you. It wasn't like a natural thing for me, but I was like, did you actually try that? I mean, do you remember really actively being like, let me try doing that thing. My parents told me it works well, absolutely, and they are great communicators, like my dad's a minister, um, and so like being a good communicator, it was like

an important thing in our household. It was like a job. It was something you've learned to do. Um. And I was also like a super curious kid, and like my parents didn't believe in like giving children answers to questions, like if you wanted to know how something worked, you could pull out the dictionary or like eventually, um, you could ask jeeves and uh find out about it. And so it was like it was so interesting in finding out about things that I had to learn how to

like communicate those things to people. Mm. Yeah. That makes me think of when I was like when I've been a teacher or a coach and people are asking me things that I don't actually think are that relevant to the act coaching, like why is it that this accent sounds like this? And I'm always like, great questions to let me know. It's such a relief to be able to just be like the person who has the thought

has to solve it for themselves. Yeah, okay, so that was so it worked in a way because now I feel like you're a great not only are you a great communicator, but you've actually used that particular skill. I mean, I'm thinking specifically of like when you're on Samantha b And and question asking and being really present with people was like the job. Yeah, I think like I started doing improv um because I thought it was fun and

I enjoyed performing um. But the thing of improv is like listening very deeply to people and like responding to them from a place of yes um. And so then when I got that job, it's not really a job that you can train for because like before it started with like just the Daily Show. Now there are more shows that do that, but you would there wouldn't be like a college class on how to be a fake news correspondent because there was like one show that was

doing that. So once when I started doing it, I was like, oh, I don't know if I know how to do this. And I was really lucky to get to observe Sam, who is the absolute best at it, and I sort of like the thing that she does

so well. She's such a like open empathetic person that people immediately feel very comfortable with her to the point where she can do I've seen her do the most wild things in front of people and they're just so in love with her that they just sit there while she like does a whole comedy routine and they're just like,

I trust this lady, I'm sure this is going somewhere. Um. So I was never like quite that good at it, but at the formula that worked for me, I was like, Oh, it's like doing improv with someone who doesn't know how to do it and doesn't know that they are doing it, and so you're just like saying yes to whatever it

is they're doing. And sometimes you physically have to like hold people on camera like you you wouldn't be able to tell, but behind their I'm like physically holding them from running away because some people's impulse when they see a cameras to retreat and you're like, so you're like trying to listen to them and remember all the things that you need to talk about and like stay on topic.

And get what you need for the piece, but also somehow physically radiate like trust and confidence and physically keep them in fraight. How do you besides the physical part with your hand, how do you like what do you what is the actual technically speaking, how do you do that radiating? Like do just think that thought and then just and then just run with it? Um? I try to just like tell people they're doing a good job

and like you're okay. This is because like a lot of times people think they are supposed to be funny and like they're not. Like, all you need to do in this moment is be honest and tell me your real opinions and um, sort of reassuring people that like that's enough that you don't need to entertain me or the idea of the audience. Like literally, if you just tell me the truth, you will have done the perfect thing. Yeah,

that's amazing. It also makes me wonder, like, um, can you tell us about I want to get into everything with your PhD program and your and your leaving of the PhD program for improv you you you like left the old lover for the new lover. Um but but um, but actually, yeah, let me just start there. So I want to get back to talking about improv. But first, what was Will you set the scene of what was

happening for you academically when you discovered sketch and comedy. Um. Yes, so I went to grad school like half because I was good at that kind of work, like I enjoy theory, I enjoy writing, I enjoy like solving and figuring out a problem. Um. But also half because the thing I really wanted to do, which was be an actor, didn't seem accessible to me. I also, by the way I read that you were talking about in college, like never getting cast as the lead, um, which I really which

really resonates with me. I always and I think this is still true, but certainly wasn't that time. I always was like whatever the smallest character, they could still be considered a lead character. Was like, I wasn't garbage. I was trying myself as like a B plus actor, Like I it's not bad. I just was never going to be the lead, and in retrospect was often playing like the comic relief character. But wasn't like president enough to realize that I was funny. I was just like, oh,

I'm not pretty. I don't get to be the girl who, like someone falls in love with, but also a lot of times that character is quite boring and there's more fun funny yes, character off to the side, Yes, which is the same. I remember I got an I got an m f A in acting. And so there was like, you know, eight girls at guys in my class, and the very the third year they had, um somebody like it was so theater based, and then suddenly they had somebody from Hollywood pop in and be like, so, here

are your types. Yes, and he went through and literally every single person in my class was you're the lead, You're the best friend, You're the lead, you're the best friend. I was the one who they said was the character actor. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, this makes so much sense of why I've always felt like the weird outsider in my grad school class, and also why no one knows what to do with me except just put me in the funny role and like, let her solve

that thing. One of those where um, there's like a list of the types of characters you would play, and everyone's like a cop and FBI agent, lawyer, you know whatever, and mine were all like a nurse assistant, district attorney, a beat cop. It was an assistant version of every job. I mean, so you were like, let me actually talk about the theory of minstrulsy because this acting thing might

not be for me. Um. I mean, I'm it's a joke, but it's also not a joke because I was so my my my jaw dropped when I read what you had were actually, you know, going for your PhD for the subject matter. Yeah, And I'd love to tell people about it because blackface minstrelsy is the first American art form. It's the first art that Americans created. Uh. And there's still so many like things that we think of is

like classic comedy bits and tropes that originated from minstrelsy. Um. And so it was a really interesting thing to study. And I've heard you even say that like like like sitcom, like what we think of as sitcom, but UMPA has its roots. Yeah. And so it's like now, being a person who makes television, I'm really glad that I had that background. Um. But at the time I was just like in academia and was again like sort of good at it, but I wasn't enjoying it. And the people

that want to be in that world. We're just not my people. I really really enjoyed teaching and working with students, and I was able to teach like when you're teaching performance, like a lot of students think they're going to be an actor or something, and a lot of them are just not based on the numbers. But what was more important to me was like I was able to get students to like stand up straighter and be more confident in their bodies and like use their voices to their fullness.

Nothing makes me want to dig into a human more than a woman who only uses the top half of her voice and I know there's more voice, and it like if I meet her in a bar, I'm like, well, we're gonna like I would love to get in there and just just find the bottom of that register. Just people have their whole voice. I mean absolutely, obviously I'm in your club if you'll have UM. I also feel like that the vocal equipment, the language equivalent of that

is people who say I'm fine. I mean obviously, like sometimes we're just like we don't need to engage whatever, but I'm fine voice that really sounds like somebody's trying to convince you. But they're convinced you with like a quarter of their range. I'm fine, Yeah, it's fine, and I'm like, right, Actually, while we're here, tell us more about teaching. Do you remember anyone specifically that you helped.

I went straight from undergrad to grad school, so I was like the same age as or a year older than my students, which was very strange. I didn't always feel very effective, but I remember we did like a class performance, and um, this student's parents came up to me after the performance and we're like, what did you do? Just like complete shot and I didn't even understand what

was happening. And I thought, like, we're their dirty words in the show that they weren't, and they were like, he never heard him say more than like five words in a row. He's so shy, and he just stood up there and gave like a whole performance. What did

you do to him? And I was like, I don't know, but it feels so good to know that you've given someone permission, yeah, mission, and like the space to access a part of themselves that obviously they already had, but maybe they just were never in a space where someone said, like I want to see this part of you yeah, I mean so much of this work is about um. I mean I said, you know he held permission because the it's the word that's in my title. But you know,

the reality is part of giving somebody permission. It's not just like you know, finger wagging and saying you have permission. It's about like saying, you might have felt like you were in spaces that were too scary to handle you. You You might have been right, but it also might have become a habit. Yeah, so what if we put you in a really safe space and and figure out who's in there that hasn't felt safe to come out? Yeah,

and it has to be truly safe. I think sometimes the word safe space has become like a buzzword and people say like, oh, we want this job to be a safe space, but it isn't. And like truly creating a space where it's like there's no wrong answer here. And I taught comedy writing, so I had students right scenes that offended me, like as a woman, as a person of color, and it's like, but this is a safe space, and so we're going to talk about this scene on its merits and no one's judging you for

having written it. The audience probably doesn't want to see it, and let's talk about that. But like this is off because also like how is that safe for you? Then? You know, I mean it isn't always. But the good thing is like when you are being um offensive in a racial way or a gender way, you're also often doing bad comedy. So as a teacher, it's very easy to be like, here's why this is bad comedy, and

that's what I'm here to teach you. I've distracted because my dog is sleeping and she's doing really cute little barks in her sleep. What's happening? Do you think she's talking to somebody some dreams. She's probably being real tough in her dream. I think, are you walking her? And like is she getting interaction or how is how is quarantine? She's really missing the interaction because she's like a very cute, little chunky dog and so normally when we walk, like

strangers want to stop and pet her. And I think she sort of went through a crisis of like nobody's stopping to pet me and might not cute me. More like what's going on? I mean, she's all of us. Um, So when you were teaching, you had already found second city and you were already doing improvince catch. Yeah, I started um studying at the second city while so I did my masters and then I did my PhD. So

I was I started um studying a second city. I think like at the same time I started my PhD. UM So I was truly like going to school during the day and teaching and then like doing comedy at night and like coming in hungover to teach. It was like a very weird totally. And what were you thinking in terms of I mean, were you thinking as sort of obviously as it is now that you were like both studying performance and then also doing it and sort of had like the theory and practice being like jammed

up against each other. I was, but weirdly, like the school was not interested in that. They're like, oh, yeah, this thing. Like when you hear performance studies, one of the tenants of performance studies is that everything is performance gender as a performance. And so in that vein, you would think if you're doing drag or improv or comedy or whatever, those would all be equally as interesting areas

of of practice and study. But actually they're they're interested in like um important performance, like performance are and stuff like that. So doing improv was just like, we don't know why you're doing this, and it's not helping you to be doing this, and um, it was so much more fun and fulfilling. Was just like, well, I guess I'm gonna go do that academia van yeah, and where big thoughts happen and then they're sort of locked away

for only people who can access them. Um, And then I would come to realize that I was doing sketch comedy, like oh, I could do a sketch about the same idea, and obviously it's like a very different form and can be much less nuanced, But three hundred people are in the audience tonight who can immediately access this thought, as opposed to like, oh, I wrote a book and it took like years to get it published, and I forced

my students to buy it. The students who can afford this very expensive, rarefied education will be forced to buy this book and maybe they'll read it, and maybe they won't write right. I have a question from a friend that is along these lines. She wrote to me and wanted me to ask you, how do you maintain the balance between being ironic or funny and being taken seriously when you address thoughtful and complicated or complex topics like where and how as a creative do you draw the line?

And then she also wrote, um, we love you women, and thank you. That's very kind. Um, I sort of it's a really interesting question. I don't always expect to be taken seriously. Um. Just like as a young woman of color in this business, I sort of know that when I start to engage, I'm starting from a place

of not being taken seriously. And rather than like be angry about that, I just enjoy the playing with that, and like there's I really enjoy the moment it happens in interviews and meetings in like from an audience member, the moment where someone sits forward and they're like, oh, ship, she's good at this is like my favorite and I like to wait for it and clock it and see

how long it took me to get there. So rather than like be mad that I don't get to start with that and the way that some people do, I just enjoy watching that person be forced to like give me that moment eventually. Um. So I don't I don't

feel like a pressure about being taken seriously. I do feel a pressure about being understood because one of the things with comedy is like you could write something that's super funny, but if it's about a topic that serious are important, and people are unclear whether or not you take it seriously, then they can, you know, rightfully get very upset or not rightfully but pretend to get upset because it's fun to like be mean to people on

the internet. And so I think, like less than being taken seriously, it's like really important to me to be understood and to be clear. And the times when I have gotten in trouble, I can look back and say, like, oh, you know what, maybe that statement wasn't a hundred percent clear and there is room for interpretation here um, and

try to limit that. The other part of the question, I think, which is which is feels really relevant for me and for for a lot of us who are trying to live in this space where where approaching a lot of the absurdity of life with the absurdity it deserves, but also with the gravitas that it deserves. If it's like hurting people's you know, if this is if it's heavy is um, it's like how do you figure out how to be funny about things that are serious, because

that is something that you actually are an expert on. Um. Weirdly, like as I said, I was not. I had to learn to be a better communicator and as a kid, like the times where I was most angry or most sad, a lot of times people would laugh, Like just my natural expression of my feelings causes laughter. Um, so I found a way to make money off of it. Um. But I think, like, so what you're saying is you just talk seriously about serious things and people had people

fill in their own ships. I mean sometimes you do, like there are certain jokes structures that you know we're gonna work, and like if you can put something into one of those structures, what does that mean? Wait, will you tell me what you mean by a joke structure? Just like when you've been doing it for a while, Like there are just certain jokes that like work, and you're like, oh, if I can figure out how to say this in this way, it's going to get a laugh.

But also people will listen to it is the the real thing behind it. So there there is some of that, but there's also like I think a lot of times laughter comes from like surprise, um. And there are just so many things that are like obviously happening that we either don't talk about because we don't want admit it to ourselves or like we feel that we can't talk about for political reasons. And sometimes someone just saying the thing is funny because it's like, oh, ship, I can't

believe someone actually said it. Yeah, yeah, which which feels like it's it's it's tapping into that like age old aspect of comedy, that is the speaking truth to power part, the court jester part. It's like, if I do it with a little bit of a wink of ha ha, I'll just I'll be the one who just says the thing yeah, and then the tension release of like, oh, finally it's been mentioned to someone said it the thing. Um, Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and come right back.

Can we talk about doing voices? Yes? So, I mean, first of all, um, a Black Lady Scotch show, you write at least some of your own characters. How do you figure out how they're gonna sound? Such a good question, for example, like Trinity versus the Influencer girl, the most annoying woman in the world. Um, because also like you're you're also I mean, I'm I'm also asking because like you're kind of like playing in stereotypes and vocal stereotypes.

And then also like I always feel like you're doing it with a real like sense of I know what I'm doing, you know. Yeah, it's like, first of all, just fun because I started out training as a singer and so like learning how to access those different parts of my voice, and it's very fun to like bring like the the trend ay voices more so in my chest close to my real voice. She's a very honest person. She's also not she's unrecognized, but she also uses that

to her advantage. She's not trying to be recognized, so her voice is going to be a little bit lower and quieter, and she's okay going under the radar um whereas uh, the most annoying woman in the world. That voice comes out of the top of my head, which is like an opera register, and it's it's like both someone who's trying it's incredibly difficult to speak from there,

like and she's a person who's trying very hard. Like she's definitely a try hard but also she wants the most attention she's working really hard for it, but she's also not real. Like the fullness of your voice comes from much lower in your body, so it's sort of like a voice that tells you that a person is being artificial. And one of the things that was interesting about that sketch, Lauren ashes Smith, who's a genius, wrote that sketch, and it was in the South, and I

was like, do I do a Southern accent? Because a person who came from this place would have one, except for that she's pretending to be someone else, so she almost has like a valley girl accent, even though she's not from there and has never been there, because she's like trying to present herself as an idea of a

person that's not real. It's also like a thing about femininity, like for what one woman is trying to do, excessive femininity is useful, and for what the other one is trying to do, it Isn't you know what I mean to the idea of femininity is not a given but a tool. Um, And we all know I get super feminine when I get pulled over by the cops, you know what I mean? Like we know when that tool is to our use and when it isn't, and it's

very fun to play with. I love that. Yeah, I mean I talked about this a lot because I often say that this podcast is about how to use your voice to get what you want, but what you want is different in different scenarios. So yes, we have an quote unquote authentic voice that sounds like it's I mean, you know, from our actual anatomy and feels true, rings true,

But also we have more than one authentic voice. Yeah, and like to me, like, the only reason to communicate is to affect another person, And where constantly as human beings, um, what's the word, like analyzing and thinking about how can I be most effective in what I'm trying to get done. Whether it's like you're trying to get your kid to put their shoes on, is like how much raising my

voice will get them to do it faster? And if I go too far with that and I make the kid cry, now we're waiting even longer to to get out the door. We're constantly like having those negotiations in real life, and those are the things I think that make acting in characters really feel real and lived in, because those are the calculations that people are making totally.

And actually that's such a great way to put it too, because sometimes it seems like, you know, anybody has gone through any acting training knows that that part of the sort of central way that the actors think about breaking down you know, script written by not them or even written by them, I guess, is like, what what does

my character want in this moment? And sometimes that feels sort of calculated and disconnected, but it's a you know, obviously important to remember that that's actually what we're thinking about in real life all the time. We're just not necessarily thinking how do I use my voice to get what I want in this moment? But we are We're

just not necessarily thinking about it intellectually. Yeah, it's more instinctive or we're or we're like constantly uh trialing different things, you know, like you said with the kid with the kid thing like whatever naturally comes out and then oops, that didn't work, let me pivot, do you know? Um?

I actually, I mean I get really literal with that because I'm me, and so if I have to tell my kid to do something more than once in like the third or fourth time, is when I have to like raise my voice and then he does it, I totally Oh my god, I sound so manipulative, but I totally dropped my voice back down, and I say, so it sounds like you're asking me to yell at you because you only did the thing when I yelled. Is that what you're teaching me? You know? And then he

has to think of out it? God, it does seem like that's sort of what I was teaching you. Mom. Was such an hussle. It adds a little spice to my day. What can I say? But no, I mean, but you're right with everybody, like we we were trying.

The reason we're all trying to have our feelers on all the time and have a high EQ, as you say, is because obviously the more that we can read a room, the more we can get what we want, even if what we want is just to be understood, not not necessarily to like, you know, get something transactional from someone. Did you did you lose me there? Sorry? That was Oh I'm good. Can you tell me what the process was of getting better at improv? Oh? Um? Really good question?

Like do you remember sucking at it? Sucking at it is too strong, but you know what I mean, Like the honing part this is gonna be so crunchy, and is coming from a person who taught improv for many years. I don't think that anybody sucks at improv, and so I don't inexperience myself as sucking it improv. I think what you can be bad at is being yourself on stage.

That like I think like when you're hanging out with your family or your friends and people you're close to, you feel very comfortable and that's probably closest to your true self. And for a lot of people, when you get on stage, when a camera gets into your face, you get uncomfortable and it's very difficult to be your

true self in that situation. And all improv is teaching you to do is to shut off that part of your brain that's criticizing you or telling or making you overthink everything before you say it, or telling you your body is not good enough and you should hide it, or whatever it is your brain does in that moment, and you're training to stop listening to that and to go back to your normal natural reactions, or like some

people describe it as like learning to play. Like when we were children, we played um without a lot of self doubt and and in negative self talk, and then as an adult you learn all of these rules of how you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to honestly tell this person what you think of them, You're not supposed to honestly respond in this moment. You're supposed to be like a good work or whatever role

it is you're supposed to play. And now all of those thoughts are between you and that person who used to just like, I just met a friends baby over zoom, which is infuriating, like I should get to kiss that baby, but um, she's you know, has a slight inconvenience and she starts wailing because that's her feel She feels, I don't feel good. Somebody fix it, and we like learn so much to stop doing that. And all improv is is going back to being that person who, when they

have a slight feeling, says or does the thing. Um. And so I don't think I experience its experienced it as being bad at improv, but I did experience being like, oh, when I felt that moment of fear, I said the thing anyway, and I got a huge laugh. And that's true every time. And eventually I got to the point where when I feel that moment of fear, I get excited because I know what means a laugh is coming.

That is huge. That's because it's so that's so, that's actually such a I mean, that's such a tangible way for people to think about it who are maybe experiencing the same thing, Like just to trust that that feeling means keep going, it doesn't mean back off. Yeah, and it It's changed my whole life. Like I truly believe everyone should take improv classes. Obviously not everyone should be an improviser. It's not a job. You can't make money

doing it. But everyone should take improp classes because it made me better at everything. Like I was a person who couldn't like go on vacation and relax because in that environment everything is not like controlled and planned. And I learned to yes and and just be like okay, I'm here now, you know whatever, Like oh, there's a restaurant down the street, I'll try that one. If it's not good, I'll live, you know what I mean, Like you just learned to go with the flow more. I

always I always, um, I realized yours a go. That like a great way for me to figure out like people in my life that I've sort of gravitate towards versus need to like have some boundaries around is yes and people versus no. But people, and I'm not judging them like no, but people often are just like not yet yes and people God God willing. But but yeah, I mean the yes and energy just permeates into every every way that we approach every tiny, tiny thing. Yeah.

It just allows you to like find things interesting instead of scary, Like someone says something that you wouldn't normally think or that you it's very different from you, and allows you to be like, oh, that's interesting, tell me more about that, instead of just being like, no, go away, I don't like it. Which, also, by the way, is the secret when you're around your kid too much hashtag quarantine tip. You know, but I mean whatever, it's it's

too much. It's too much for everybody. But you know, it is true that in those moments when they're being you know, quote unquote annoying, you can also be like, remain curious. Remain curious. This is such an interesting human who is having their moment? What is this? What can I learn about humans from this moment? Yeah? I am not a parent, and so my favorite developmental phrases when a kid learns the word no and they're like trying to figure out how no works, and you're like, do

you want a raspberry? And they're like no, and it's like, I know you do, but this is how no works. You said no, and so now no raspberry, and let's sit here until you figure out that you do. I'm also a fan of like if my kid says no a lot, I'm always like, so find one thing to say yes to right now. Just try it, just try it, just try it. And then he has to and then he's like this was not meant to become a podcast about mothering, but like you know what this quarantine times

everything changes. Um. I want to talk a little bit about writer's rooms. You've been in a number of them at this point, and a number of really cool ones. It seems like, I mean, I'm referring to Samantha b

a Black Ladies Gut Show and also bless this Mess. Yes, and also you've talked about the epitome of those moments that didn't work and maybe previous experiences where what I've heard you say is something about like when your references don't land and it made me realize that one way I'm always thinking about how power works, you know, and one way that we can talk about power is when you bring in a reference that somebody doesn't get. The power is in people assuming I bet it's relevant, I

should go look it up. And when you don't have the power, it's assuming that doesn't sound relevant. I don't know what she's thinking about anyway. Yeah, that is so a true in comedy and difficult to articulate at times because people will say this is funny and this is not funny, and that exists. But a lot of times what you're saying is I understand this, and I don't

understand this. And because you understand and recognize something it's funny to you, that doesn't mean that everyone else understands and recognizes it. And it also doesn't mean that the things that you don't understand and recognize are not funny

to someone. So, like, the example I always use, because it's universally true in writer's rooms is that like men will always like put in a Star Wars reference and then they'll be like, now it's a joke, and you're like, it is for people who have seen Star Wars which you think is everyone, but it's not everyone, or or I would argue even like people who have seen like people who've seen Star Wars and also think that Star Wars references are funny because I've seen Star Wars, but

I'm like, yeah, right, it seems seems trawn, seems overtrawed. Well there's like that laugh of recognition of like, oh, we're all on the same page. And you might have that about Star Wars, but like in the Black Lady Sketch show Room, so many moments like that are about like things that happen in black churches that like, I know there are many people who would be like, oh, that's not funny, and it's like, actually, it's hilarious. You just never were a child growing up in a black

church and that's a specific experience. Yeah, well in the whole, And that's the whole idea of like you know, quote unquote centering other people's stories that like we get to like not have there be one kind of funny anymore. We've got not one kind of point of view anymore. And you know, most of us, I guess I don't know the number, so I shouldn't say most of us, but a lot of us are not interested in, you know, just the thing that used to be funny fifty years ago. Yeah.

I think also, I've totally found, both in live comedy and in television that audiences will laugh at anything that's funny and they don't have to know the reference. And there are ways like package things where like even if you don't know the reference to jokes still works. And for the most part, if it's interesting and compelling and funny, audiences will enjoy it. And the problem is not that the problem is like gatekeepers who assume the audience isn't

going to enjoy that thing. Yes, yes, I've heard you talk about this. Yes, can you say a little bit more about what you mean. It's like the people who are kind of scared of the audience rather than the audience themselves. But they also maybe are the ones who cut your checks. Yeah, people who are like, oh, people don't know what this is, or white people won't know

what this is and therefore won't work. And it's like one of the cool things about having trained in Chicago's that you perform in front of the audience that um, first of all, very comedy savvy audiences who watch a ton of comedy, but also people who are just like driving down from Indiana to see a show and they know everything, Like I don't know why, um, the powers that be have like decided that like the Internet and television and having friends doesn't exist and people aren't capable

of finding out about other experiences other than their own. But for the most part, people do know about things and are and are like hungry for it, like like you know, if you get up there, I want you to talk about you. Also, they like if people have paid money to watch something they want to laugh at it, They're gonna give you those first few minutes to hook them in because they're like I left my house, I got a babysitter. Be funny. Also tell me if this

feels true or not true. But it also makes me think about you know that there's this sort of angel truism that when we're really really specific about our experience, even if it's when no one else has shared, it rings true. There's something I mean, you know, the more specific, the more universal, Like I'm thinking about it makes me

think of Hannah Gadsby's The Net. Like much of the content of that of her life experience, I have not had, but like the deeper stuff, I'm like that human to human, I see you, you know, I see me better because I see you, And I'm sure that like some jokes about you know, black church ladies that I haven't necessarily been in the church next to will still be like I see what, I see what that is about how

humans are? Yeah, because you're like, I know what an authority figure is, I know what a generational divide is. Like I've experienced a nosy person before. Like the more specific you can be, the more it becomes because at the end of the day, like it's always about love or fear or something that every human has experienced. Okay, I have two questions that are actually I think two parts of the same question now that I think about it.

One of them is about writer's block or jokes that aren't working or sketches that aren't Like you were talking about somewhere about the the second Act of Trinity and like not quite you know, like having weeks of sort of like what is that? So I want to talk about that. But the other side of that, which is like confidence in like being okay with not getting it yet. Oh yeah, I actually had a great teacher at Second City, Norm Holly and um, there you know, like the actors

right the show and you would write something. So there's a lot like it feels like you're giving a piece of your heart to your director because it's not only a script that you've written, but that you're hoping to star and it means your stage time. It's like everything about the show is determined by your ability to like be a decent writer. And obviously, like sketches get cut all the time, and Norm, like very early on, taught

us you'd be like, ideas are like toilet paper. Once they've been used, you flush them, like you you don't need to hold on to this particular idea that didn't make it into the show, or that did make it into the show, and now it's going to go that's

not the only good idea you're ever gonna have. You're gonna have five hundred good ideas over the course of this process alone, and um, each idea is only good enough to like serve the moment it's in and then and then it doesn't need to go on any further than that, and you get told that and it doesn't feel real to you. And then like two years later, you sort of wake up and you're like, oh, he was right, but you have to like have had the

experience of doing it so many times. I also have heard it talks about like building up a callous that like every time something is bad or gets rejected, it like it's like, um, when you first start playing guitar and your fingers are like tenter soft, but you keep doing it to like build up a callous there so that like your rejection callous is stick enough that someone says this is a good idea and you're like, all right, fine, onto the next idea. UM. I think that's easier to do.

And like Sketch, where the script was five pages long, it's harder to write like a two page thing and be like, oh you don't like it, great, no problem, I'm cool. I'm cool. But there is like having trust in yourself that if this idea doesn't work for this person a that's not necessarily everyone, but also be you're going to have another good idea and you're going to

be able to keep working. It's a nice way to think about it too, because sometimes like the other way of thinking about it is that we're so, how do you both, um care a lot care enough to you know, I feel like you're really honoring your ideas and then also not care enough so that if they don't happen, it's not like the end of the world. Yeah. Practically. One thing that I do is if I am pitching something or have like a big audition that's like very

important to me. The second that I'm done with that thing, I start doing another thing. So like I'm pitching a shown now, and I'm writing a different script while i'm pitching it, so that like when I get told no, which I will about that thing, instead of going, oh no, my one precious opus has been rejected, it's like, oh that one got rejected. Well, back on track with this other thing that I'm working on. Do you take your own advice advice columnist? Um? A lot of the time.

I also have a best friend who will it is very happy to be like, well you say, blah blah blah, how infuriating and fabulous. I love your advice. First of all, you have a podcast and you have do you still do the advice column on Dame or did that turn into the podcast they were together? I haven't done either of them in a little while. Yeah, Um, your advice is so good. I mean sometimes I read those sorts of things and I'm like, oh, I hope the person

doesn't take that advice. But yours, I'm like, yeah, like you got to the you know, like there's this one. Actually to wrap it up with another another mom thing. Um, sorry for non moms in the audience. You gave advice to a lady who was who was putting herself last and like hated her kids as a result. And you said, I don't suggest that you focus on changing your feelings, which is blaming yourself. I suggest that you focus on

building your life, which is taking care of yourself. Get a hobby, take a night off a week to do pilates, or that dumb thing where you drink and paint shitty pottery, go out with your girlfriends. By the way, none of this is useful for right now to quarantine, but I bet you could probably like tweak it if you were asked to. Um, you know that secret dream you had that no one knows about, start quietly working towards it. So I said that that she was putting herself last.

That came from you. She didn't say that, right, she was just saying, like I hate my kids, and you were like, I see through you to what's happening. Yeah, that's why I like giving advice. I mean I like giving advice because I'm a bossy person. Let's kind of thing. It's like one of those words I enjoyed telling people what to do. I would say, I would say, you're an empowering leader. I like bossy. I'm reclaiming it. Okay, good,

okay good. I feel like women especially but people in general, have been so trained that it's bad to be self interested that it's often very clear what someone wants and the only person who doesn't know is them, because it feels dangerous to admit that you want an hour to yourself a week, or like I another word that I

like to reclaim is ambitious. Like it's women are not supposed to be ambitious to the point where, like, like I was talking about go to jokes, Like one of the things that I'll say, knowing I'll get a laugh out of it is to be like, I'm very good at this. People will always laugh at that because women

are not supposed to say it. And I think like a lot of times you can clearly see that a woman like wants something is ambitious or even just wants time to herself take care of herself, and she doesn't feel allowed to say it social say like five hundred other things, and you just have to be like it seems like the thing behind this is that your husband sucks or like whatever, yeah, whatever, or that you're not asking for what you need yeah, and so blaming everybody else. Yeah.

And I also, you know, I love I just love listening to people and finding out more about people, and I hate talking about the weather. And so I am one of those horrible people who someone will be like I'm fine and be like, how's your how's your relationship going? Because I just I don't want to have the I'm saying conversations. I would love to just dig in there

and find out what's really Oh yeah, you know. There's one of the burn A Brown podcast episodes with Dr Mark Brackett, who wrote this book, called Permission to Feel. I feel it feels like a companion piece for Permission

to Speak. Um. But his whole I mean, he has a lot of things I don't want to say his whole thing is quote unquote, but one of his things that really stayed with me is that, you know, we were all in this I'm fine culture because we've just been talk that no one wants to know what's real. But for those of us who actually do or who are like, I have the time right now if you want to actually tell me what's real. Um, you know, people have to be trained that there's space for that. Yeah.

I think also the fear behind that, which is very valid, is like I don't want to ask this person for care or I don't know if they're like available to take care of me right now. But you can also be honest without expecting anything back from that person, which I think can be difficult to do. But it's okay to be like I'm having a bad day, Okay, on with the meeting, and not like make that person take

care of you. Like I think people see like two opposite things, like either people are just like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, or people there are a lot of people who are very comfortable being like take care of me in this moment, and we were like we're in a business meeting, no, um. But there's a middle ground, which is just being like, oh, we're in a tough situation, like especially right now with COVID nineteen. Everyone's in a tough situation. It's okay to say like this is tough

and then continue on with what we're doing. And you've been honest. You probably feel a little bit better for having been honest. But you're also not asking anyone to like stop what they're doing and care for you. I know, I know, not being a burden and also asking for what we need. Um. Yeah, we're gonna take another break and then we're gonna come back and find out who you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay, we are back, and UM, tell us who you've brought in

to the surprise of No. One, Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, can we talk for a second about your relationship with Elizabeth, your public relationship with Elizabeth. Yes, Well, Um, when I saw it was like someone whose voice you admire, I didn't know if it meant their physical voice or they're like point of view, and I really like both of them for her, so that's why I chose her. Also, she is very funny, which I think we're we need

more funny in our politics right now. Um. So I had tweeted, Um it was like in the primary and I was just scrolling through Twitter, and like every tweet seemed to be about like a different plan that Elizabeth Warren had put out, and they're all these like well thought out, comprehensively great plans, and so bringing us back, I know it's upsetting. As a joke, I tweeted like, do you think Eliza with Warren as a plan from

my love life? Just like as a comment on how varied and comprehensive the plans were, And then she tweeted back like DM me and we'll talk about it. Was just like a great joke and I just loved that she was that funny, and I thought that would be the end of it. And then she actually DMed me and called me on the phone and wanted to help, and um, and did she help. She would have helped

a more together person. Her advice was basically like, no, what you have going for you and like move from a place of you're an amazing person who anyone would be lucky to be with. And that is good advice that I'm not at yet. I will have access to that maybe in five years, I think always at the plan that's plan Yeah, Um, that's I mean, I hope I hope it comes before that. For the sake of your confidence, if not for the sake of your love life. UM. But also yeah, every aspect of that story is just

so fucking unfairly charming. It's also like so her because even in that phone call, she was naming specific things that I had done, like pieces I had done in full frontal or like things that she thought would make me a good partner. And she is someone who, just like I think so deeply about everything that was like that would have um citations mom's love life. UM. On that note, I picked a little bit from one of

her town halls. UM. I wanted to pick something that was not from an interview, but that was from you know, on a stage, because I think that's that's really that's the tough part. I mean, they're all tough, but in terms of public speaking, how we bring ourselves. Uh, we're gonna jump to it right now and listen to this little bit and try to live in the world in

which this worked for America. I can remember how my mother used to tuck me into bed at night, and she give me a big smile, and then she'd walk out of the room and she closed the door, and I'd hear or start to cry because she never wanted to cry in front of me. These are the times that I learned words like mortgage and foreclosure. And I still remember walking into their bedroom one day and laid out on the bed was the dress. Now some of you know the dress. It's the one that only comes

out for weddings, funerals, and graduations. And there was my mother down in the other part of the room in her slip and her style stockings, and she was walking back and forth, and she had her head down and she was saying, we will not lose this house. We will not lose this house. We will not lose this house.

It's like so powerful in the specificity of her storytelling, like the specificity of her mom wearing the slip and being a person who has like one nice dress and all of the like little details that she gives us one it builds empathy within us because we have experienced that, like I picture my mom in her slip, you know, on a Sunday morning, and also tells us that she actually lived a life like the one that we're living.

And that is become so rare in a politician on the national level that they know what it means to not be able to pay a bill, or to have one nice dress, or to cry because you don't know how you're going to take care of your children, and you don't necessarily have have to have experienced those things

to be able to help people. But we've experienced so many politicians who haven't experienced those things, who aren't able to help us because their policy that they think is super helpful is going to end up only helping the people on the top because they don't know what life is like. I mean literally, they don't get our reference that we brought into the room. Yeah, and for someone to say with that much specificity, like I have been where you are, I have experienced it. It also like

very much places her age and where she's from. She's telling you so much about herself, but in a way that tells you that she's like you. Um, and it's so effective. And now with the benefit of high insight, we know that it wasn't that people still, like a lot of people still chose not to vote for her.

I mean it was, it was, and it wasn't you know, I think the electability issue or like I don't want to take some of the wrong lessons from her not winning because um, I think so many there's there's statistics that proved that so many people wanted to vote for her but were worried that quote unquote their neighbor wouldn't. And this sort of the attempt at at game theory

NG it just fucked us all. And that's you know that that then not the same lesson as the she was a bad communicator lesson, Right, So we don't want to take one for the other. Well, it's also like on a very different scale, in a very different way what we're talking about earlier, where like gatekeepers say they won't like this, so I'm not going to put it on. That's it. That's it. It's like you don't know who

they are. Like, just if you do what you think is best for the most people, you can probably be pretty effective. Like gaming out that other people might be worse than you. It's just allowing you to embrace your worst instinct in the service of people who you don't know. That's right. And if we aren't voting for people because we love them, we're voting for them because we think that the maybe least bad among the people that probably

your neighbor will vote for. You know, we're just not actually being citizens, like in the way that democracy wants us to be, but also in terms of what we can learn from her on a technical level, because you know, um, despite her not having the day on Super Tuesday that a lot of us were hoping for, um, there are still just stunning lessons to learn from her public speaking style,

and you were talking to a lot of them. The reason I picked that one one bit specifically, rather than her in a in a sort of question and answer a moment when she's a fucking brilliant yes. And her, by the way, is that she told that story so many times. She's told that story, you know, at every single town hall, and that was right near the end, uh, the one that I picked, which is South Carolina? And and what is it to tell the same story over and over one? You have to actually trust that your

story is worth telling. So that's like the that's early on right from for a lot of women. Surely some men as well, but but stereotypically for a lot of women, we skip the part where we tell an actual story about her actual life. And I found it on this podcast. I mean getting people to actually say, you know, not just like this is a thing that happens to people.

But I remember this one time that you know, we there's just this little voice in us that goes and no one wants to hear about that, but we're just desperate for it. And when she says, like, here's the thing that actually happened, let me take you there, We're like, yes, we're storytelling creatures. We were there with you, were in the room, you know. Um. And how much she was able to embody it each time, even though it was repetitive,

you know, even though she'd done it before. And what that is to just like actually sort of trust that you can go there to that place in your mind and then tell the story with sometimes different words, sometimes the same words, and and really that you're just there to the other part of it, connected to the to the audience. That she knows she's doing that empathy building thing, and she knows that she's connecting it to these big ideas that tend to turn people off, you know, mortgage

and foreclosure um, just breaks people's brains. Um. And and yet she's connecting she's I had I had a teacher once say looping it through the heart. I think about that a lot with her, right, like, we can say things out of our mouth, or we can take that moment where they sort of loop through our heart and then come out of our mouth. And you know, part of what a lot of us love about what uh what a what a real like icon of female leadership she is is that she's not afraid to be emotional

like that for a purpose. Not just emotional because she's unprocessed on something, but emotional because she's saying, I'm bringing this in because it's real and because it's huge and it's a problem and we're all dealing with it, and I'm not not gonna, like try to be more formal

than the story requires. It's also that she speeches that you say over and over again can start to feel canned because you've said it so many times, and it doesn't because she's fully isn't in that moment, And having met her, she seems to be fully present in every moment. Like when I met her, there was like a group of activists who were there to challenge her on something, and she was so present with them and listening and asking questions. And it takes a certain amount of confidence

to just be in the moment. It's much easier to have those prepared answers that your staff gave you that you know have been focus tested and are the best answers.

That's easy to do. It's much harder to sit in the uncomfortable moment of not knowing what that person is going to say to you, not knowing how to respond, and if that person says something that's challenging to you, not rushing them off, but sitting in it and saying, let me understand what you're saying and where you're coming from, or speaking to a group of this size, and not just reciting a speech and hitting all your laugh lines, but saying, let me be present with you in this

moment and tell you how this felt to me, and allow you to see me in that way, and hopefully you will respond in kind, which I find that often people do. You will stop that running voice in your head and be present with me because of my example, and we'll be able to actually have this moment of communication together. Yeah. I know I want to talk to her about that as well. I want to know if she has this that same Ashley moment that you're talking about earlier, of like being my real self right now

scares me doing it, Ashley. Thank you. Thank you for this. Um that you dropped some serious advice without even necessarily a being framed that way, you know, but I really appreciate you being on. Thank you for this. Thanks so much for having me. I got to talk to another human being, which is rare enough these days. I got to see a baby. It's a really good day. Thank you to Ashley for joining us. You can find out more about her in the show notes or on our

website Permission to Speak pod dot com. I am doing Instagram lives these days every Thursday at ten am Pacific, so please feel free to pop in. I talk about takeaways from this week's episode and interact with listeners, which is obviously a dream come true. So please show up there and or send me dms at Permission to Speak pot on Instagram. You can also submit through the website and UM then let me know what's going on with you.

Who do you want to have uh ME interview? Are their big old holes in the conversation that need to get filled? UM? I'd love to hear from you, guys. Thank you to Sophie Lichtman and the team at I Heeart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit U S d A C dot us

to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision, executive produced by Katherine Burke Can't and Mark Canton. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, listen on the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.