Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass With me today is my new friend, Tarzan Kay.
Tarzan Kay (00:38):
I think Keep mean Her Highness Tarzan, Kay
Angie Colee (00:40):
Her Highness Tarzan. That is right. How did I forget that? We were just talking about, oh
Tarzan Kay (00:44):
My God,
Angie Colee (00:45):
My disappointment before recording. I have this pre-flight checklist that I run everybody down and every time I ask someone to con, uh, confirm how they'd like me to introduce them, nobody comes up with a fun title like Supreme Overlord of the Universe or Dr. Reverend, uh, soul Sister. But we came up with her Highness for Tarzan, and then I didn't say it. Lame . This is the fun of, of recording these things, but I am so happy to have you on the show today and so excited for what we're going to talk about. So tell me a little bit about your business.
Tarzan Kay (01:20):
So I'm Tarzan. Kay I am her Highness, Tarzan kay . And uh, I'm an email marketer and that's my main thing. Currently. I don't actually do anything else like, oh my God, don't look at my social media profile, , just pretend I was never there. Let's pretend that never happened. And, uh, so I built a whole business around email and I teach email marketing. I have a single program, that's the main thing that I do. It's called email stars. And I work with personal brands a lot of course creators, you know, um, making them, like teaching 'em how to make email marketing fun and like personal Yeah. And something that you really enjoy doing, because what I've seen is if you really enjoy doing it, you'll keep doing it. And especially if you're subscribers are loving it and hitting reply and starting conversations, you'll keep doing it.
Tarzan Kay (02:14):
So that's what I teach. It's very story driven. Um, I talk a lot, uh, people kind of know me, like I hate the word ethical. I don't like to talk about ethical sales, but people do kind of know me for that. I personally don't use that word, but I did like really come up in the industry really fast, and I had like mm-hmm. just started out and four years later I had a million dollar business. And I was like, what is this? Wow. I don't know if I, I don't know if this is it. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then I started like backtrack walking it back and being like, okay, why was I successful so fast? Mm-hmm. , is it because I'm white? Is it because I have a lot of privilege? Is it because I am educated? Is it because I had one famous client, like in my first year in business, like why, how, why did this happen for me and not for other people?
Tarzan Kay (03:05):
Mm-hmm. and why are the strategies that I'm teaching working for some people and not other people? And so that led me to an exploration into online business and the ways persuasion is used, um, to coerce people and mm-hmm. , I had to figure out how to do a business in a way that's not coercive. And so I changed a lot. I, I don't do like, not that I'll never do this again, but you know, I used to do like big launchy launchy things and mm-hmm. teach people how to do big launchy launchy things. And I don't do those anymore. Now. I have like a, I'm almost a solopreneur. I have one person who works for me with me. I'm hiring one more person right now. But I have a lot like from the, you know, the, the like seven figure thing Yeah. That I used to do. I'm not doing that anymore. And I am a lot happier. Like, I like, I like it more now.
Angie Colee (04:00):
That's incredible. And I,
Tarzan Kay (04:01):
That's my long intro.
Angie Colee (04:03):
No, I think that's fantastic. I was taking furious notes during that and I think that something really interesting that I really wanted to unpack for everyone is this idea of like, we have a target in minds. And a lot of the times when you hit it, like building a million dollar business, it doesn't actually wind up being the thing that you thought. Which is why I'm such a huge proponent of like, take action, aim toward a goal. You don't need a reason why to aim for the goal other than to have one and see if you can hit it. Right. And sometimes when you get there and you discover it's not the thing that you wanted or not the thing that you thought, or in this, like, in this case, I don't feel good about being here and I'm not sure that I like it this way. You can undo that and reverse engineer and figure out a different way to do things. So long as you're just taking action and staying in touch with who you are and what's important to you. Would you agree?
Tarzan Kay (04:53):
Yeah, definitely. And actually my business was working for me, like even at that, when I got to that level, like I started adding more bells and whistles and more things and you know, this was four years ago, and to be honest, it was a lot easier to make a million dollars back then. Mm-hmm. , I think it's gotten harder. Maybe it's cuz I don't do the same things anymore, but it has gotten harder, like with all of the things that have happened in our world since then. Yeah. Um, but really, like I got to that point and I realized something really key, which was like the, I got to the top of this ladder that I had been climbing, and I realized that what was at the top of the ladder was just more ladder Yeah. . And I was like, oh, oh, there's just more ladder here.
Tarzan Kay (05:44):
Oh, this is what this is. And I had like covered, I thought that was the top. Yeah. I thought this was the top. Yeah. I'm at the top of this ladder and there's just more ladder. And I went to my coach and she was like, yeah, that's patriarchy. Like you figured it out that, and I was like, oh, that's what people mean. Like, is that what they're talking about? Like, they're just like endless goal and trying to get to the top and climbing over more people. And when she said that to me, that was the beginning of me figuring out what I really wanted. Because I, like, I had, uh, I had two children, I had a house mm-hmm. , I had a minivan. And I like, don't have huge dreams, Angie. Like, I have a really nice house that I live in. I have a yard, I mm-hmm. buy whatever food that I want. Like sometimes I travel for business. Like what more, I dunno, this is a, this is enough for me. This is actually enough for me.
Angie Colee (06:42):
I love that you said that because I think a lot of us have a certain level of discomfort with admitting that like, I know what enough is for me, but maybe I don't know what it is. Is it fear of judgment from other entrepreneurs that you're not striving for what you quote unquote should be, which I freaking hate. Should, should and shame are horrible. Yeah. In my opinion. And you shouldn't feel ashamed of what you want your goals to be. Whether that's, uh, like I know my business partner wants a quiet life and a mountain retreats away from people. Like that's the endgame of business for her. The endgame of business for me is to be an author and a speaker. And those things may change between now and when we get there. Or we may get there and find that those things aren't the things that we thought they were, but like, it's okay to have your goal be different from a million dollars from being a speaker. Like, well, this is okay. You can build a business you want.
Tarzan Kay (07:32):
Yeah. Yeah. And I do think since, like, if you just wanna make a million dollars, like make it the million dollars, like that's such a great goal. It'll feel so good to hit that goal. But also you have to know that like you're, youre gonna be the same person when you hit the goal. Like you're, it's actually not different. I've seen people make enormous, like an enormous amounts of money and basically when they get to the enormous pile of money in their bank account, they're usually just figuring out how to make more fat stacks. Like that's how it goes. Mm-hmm. , and I do for myself, like I needed to solve some, I I needed to solve financial security. Yes. Or like, you know, I, I needed to solve that. And once that, so once that got solved, like that actually allowed for me to explore what I wanted my life to be, what I wanted my work to be, what's meaningful to me.
Tarzan Kay (08:25):
So it's really easy to say like, oh, seven figures, it doesn't matter. Like look for something more meaningful. No. Mm-hmm. actually figure your out financially. But just know that like, once you get that figured out, like there's a whole other world of stuff that you have to figure out. Yeah. And so I did have to, and that was very hard. Um, but now, like, what I actually want to do is write like I love writing mm-hmm. , I also happen to really love writing emails. Like that's the jo, I I already have it. Like I love writing emails. I wish I had a little bit more time to write my book mm-hmm. . So that's, you know, like I have some work to do there. But I do think something that people don't realize when they get sold on the online course dream is like you have a thing that you're passionate about.
Tarzan Kay (09:15):
Maybe you're like a naturopathic doctor or you're like, whatever your thing is. Like, and you know, you have some gut health program and you wanna like help people do their gut health thing, whatever. Actually, like your, your, your career as a course creator is gonna be totally different Yes. Than what you're doing right now. Yes. And most of it is gonna be sitting at your desk, writing emails, making videos, writing social media captions, like putting to together webinars, like all of these things mm-hmm. that you actually might not like doing. Yes. And I did get to that place in my business where I had this whole team and of course like there, there's other ways I could have built the business, but this is what it ended up being. Yeah. I had this whole team, they were very talented, very smart people. And in order to make the whole thing go, like there was some, there was constantly a, a long list of tasks for me to provide things for them.
Tarzan Kay (10:17):
Like, yeah, look at this thing, write that thing. And it was stuff that like, like it actually took me away from the thing that I do really love doing, which is writing mm-hmm. . And now that I've paired it way back, like I don't have this team big team anymore, so I don't have to make as much revenue to keep the machine, you know, going. So I, I have a lot more choices and it means I can spend more time writing. It also means like, I just like telling like my weirdo stories to my email list. Yeah. Like, and I have so many of them. I'm like a polyamorous queer who loves ketamine. Like I could tell funny stories all day and I get to do more of that. And before I was like all day long, like, sell this thing now sell that thing now make a webinar. Yeah. I'm glad to have a break.
Angie Colee (11:10):
Yes. That's, it Sounds like that break was a long time coming and I'm glad that you realized it versus just like straight up burning everything to the ground and being like, I'm done. I'm just gonna go, you know, be a, a yak farmer or something. I don't know why yak farmer jumped into mines, but there it is. Uh, but I thought it was interesting that like, I love this idea of picking your focus, like what you did with solving for financial security. That's a very real problem. And we're neither one of us. Mm-hmm. is saying on a million dollar dream or go for a million dollar dream. Like, know what you need. Yeah. That's really theor important thing. Yeah. And it's okay to solve for that problem and then realize that that doesn't fix all of your problems. In fact, it just creates new problems. Hopefully better problems. They're nicer problem are easier to solve. Yeah. But
Tarzan Kay (11:54):
They're, they're nicer problems. Like I, when I think about like, I never made money until I was like, well into my thirties. Like I never really had a full-time job. I was like a piano teacher doing this and that. Just like really scraping by. Think about the burden of financial stress, of just like not knowing how I'm gonna pay for this thing. Or like, can I afford to eat this meal? Or like, maybe I should get the cheaper andree. Like that like constant, um, monologue in your head of like, how can I afford my life? Like yes. That it is like the greatest blessing to not have that monologue playing in my head all the time. Mm-hmm. I am so grateful. Yes. So for people who are just like, like, here's my goal, it's strictly monetary. Like Yeah. Yum man. Absolutely.
Angie Colee (12:45):
Yes. Cool. We are here championing that. Like you don't need a reason and if you need a reason, cool. I want it is enough. There's your reason. Yes. Go for it. Yes. Um, and I, I loved that you brought up like the need to make revenue to feed the machine. Like, I, I underlined that a couple times cuz I thought that was such an interesting turn of phrase that's so accurate because once you get to a certain size, you do need help. Mm-hmm. and then that help is an investment, right. It's at cost, it's a hard cost. And now it necessitates this continuing to turn to create, to sell because you've got to pay for all these people that you adore and want to support in their growth and their financial goals.
Tarzan Kay (13:22):
Yeah. And having a team is great. Like, I felt so proud to provide those jobs. Like it was really awesome. My people were great and I think I was really scared. It was really scary to go from being someone who had employees and was like seen as seen in a certain way to, to then be like, mm. Actually now I'm like a solopreneur. I'm just like doing this thing by myself. Like there was a bit of a, like there was some ego in there that made me wanna keep doing the other thing cuz it looked really good. Yeah. But now I'm like, I like what I'm doing now. It feels more honest, it's a lot more peaceful.
Angie Colee (14:06):
Mm-hmm. so glad that you said all that because that stuff really counts and we can get caught up in the whole entrepreneurship story and myth in wanting more and more and more and being so concerned with how it looks to the outside to follow our bliss. But you're not the only one that I've spoken to who has struggled with that. Like, I had to give up all the that I actually like doing because it's quote unquote less efficient for me to write my own emails when I could hire that out to somebody else. But that's the thing I love doing. Why can't I do that? Yeah. Oh, I gotta go produce a million other things. That's why.
Tarzan Kay (14:39):
Yeah. I'm actually reviewing some emails right now cuz I'm in the process of creating a new website, which I'm so excited about. Oh, awesome. And so part of it is reviewing all of my top level opt-ins and the sequences that come after them. And I'm reviewing some of those sequences and they're, and like I was expecting to be reviewing my own copy and I was like, wait, I didn't write this. Like why did I pay someone to write this? Like, I love this part of the, this is what I'm the best at. Like mm-hmm. , this is what I teach. This is my favorite thing. Uh, so it feels good to take that back.
Angie Colee (15:15):
Yes. Heaven forbid you have a little joy in your business. I absolutely agree with that thing that you said earlier about making sure that you're doing things, bring joy that make this fun so that you actually want to do it. Cuz yeah, you're gonna, if you keep adding on that you don't like and giving away all the stuff that you do, like eventually you're gonna dread going to work cuz you've created a new job for yourself and nobody likes jobs. That's what I'm proclaiming.
Tarzan Kay (15:39):
Yeah. . Yeah. I'm also like, I don't see, I don't get how this works yet, but the thing, the model that I have been taught, like for selling digital courses as a personal brand, like it's really hard to exit that model and inevitably you're like, I don't know, like I don't see anybody that's really done it. I guess I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe like Neil Patel, he doesn't seem to be like too involved, but isn't he creating content all the time? Like who in this business did a full exit sold their business? I don't know anyone. Mm-hmm. or who?
Angie Colee (16:19):
I can't think of anybody off the top of my head. No.
Tarzan Kay (16:22):
Yeah. I don't know. And what about like, actually remove themself from the business? Mm-hmm. like then you're paying people if you're a personal brand, like you end up paying people to put things to put your name on something. Mm-hmm. and I don't know, like it's my name. That's my name. Yeah.
Angie Colee (16:41):
I've seen a couple people who got to that point of like burnout and frustration with the personal brand and the teaching online courses, um, that they wanted to build in mechanisms to remove themselves. But it's interesting cuz I didn't even realize it until you brought it up that I haven't seen a single one actually complete that process because they would get a certain length, uh, you know, down the road and realize like, I'm scared to let go of this. Or maybe it's not, maybe they do love it and they do want it back now that they were halfway through the process of getting rid of it or something. I don't know what happened, but I've never actually seen that come complete. Yeah.
Tarzan Kay (17:16):
The other thing that's a little weird about it is like when people, so let's say I'm Tarzan kay I'm out there in the world doing my TikTok or whatever, like, you know, convincing people to buy into my brand, buy my programs, and then they go and buy into it and then I'm not in there. Mm-hmm. . I'm just like that that does happen a lot with online courses. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, this person, I've been listening to their podcast forever and, and so now I'm gonna give them like $5,000, but then I don't actually get any, uh, I don't actually get anything from them. I just get to watch more videos of their face. Yeah. I'm wondering like, how much longer is that gonna work? Like
Angie Colee (18:00):
That's true. It does seem like it's approaching a bit of saturation. Um, and I don't know what the solution is, but that is an interesting challenge.
Tarzan Kay (18:08):
Well, I, I think I do, I think I do actually know what the solution is because there, there is an underlying problem here, and this is especially a big problem with women who are really, like, we see a lot of like women leveraging their, their beauty, their thinness, their mm-hmm. All these things like to be likable and charming and get people to buy from them based on their persona and who they are. Yeah. Uh, versus like, let's say like Seth Godin as an example, like mm-hmm. , Seth Godin isn't showing up in his alt N B A and like talking to the students. Like he's, he's probably there on the first call and they're on the last call. However, people and people aren't in that program because they're like, oh, Seth, maybe like, maybe Seth will talk to me, maybe he'll be my boyfriend. . No. It's like, I love that guy's ideas. Like, wow, what is like such an interesting brain. Like his thoughts must be like really infused into his, his program and like you can see this approach is like really based on his ideas and helping me surface my ideas. Like you're going there for the ideas mm-hmm. and the work, like the work maybe, maybe a methodology, maybe not even rather than like all the, rather than for the person for the charm Yes. And their likability.
Angie Colee (19:27):
I, yeah, I think you're onto something there. Cause I know I have always felt a little bit of a, it was like a bur in my side over the, the whole notion of like deat attractiveness and leaning into the physical appeal or how I look. Well, I mean like we talked about this before we started recording. The fact that I don't release these videos. You know why I don't release these videos cuz I don't wanna dress up. I don't wanna feel like I have to sh like I'm sitting here in my, my comfy sweatshirt and uh, and, and you look fabulous by the way with the like
Tarzan Kay (19:57):
Yes
Angie Colee (19:57):
Statement earrings and the red lips and I'm just sitting here
Tarzan Kay (20:00):
Feeling comfortable. Red lipstick green ear. Yeah. Like I, I, I am showing up this way for this interview cuz this is how I like to look in life. Exactly. I'm wearing dark red lipstick. I have these beautiful earrings that are like this indigenous blanket design and they're like, yes. Down to my collarbone. Like I look good also. And
Angie Colee (20:20):
They're metallic and like they move when you move with the lights. So I keep like staring at them.
Tarzan Kay (20:25):
The light. Yeah. They're really amazing. Um, actually I just made a gif of them and put it in an email today, but love it. You know, that is like, I had to examine this question of why I was so successful so fast in online business. And that's a huge part of it is like, because I look the part and I was taught to leverage looking the part. I was buying courses from all these other women that were like, you know, leveraging that. And so I did it and it actually does work, but it does work except it I, I don't want people to buy from me because I'm thin and beautiful. I want them to buy from me because they want to like get really good at the thing that I'm good at and they can see me being good at it and being good at teaching it and mm-hmm. , that's what I want them to come to me for. So I'm glad we don't have video on this podcast. I'm
Angie Colee (21:19):
Glad we don't either. And that, I mean, it's just reaffirming that I've rebelled against this cuz I know I, I used to talk to my life coach about the insecurity with this. Like, will I build this thing too the way that I want because I don't look like the stereotype. Mm-hmm. , heavily tattooed bright red hair, usually have my visible piercings in if you catch me out as sweatpants. Lucky you friends. did I even put on pants today? Who knows? It's a mystery. But like
Angie Colee (21:46):
I, you know, I, I used to get that in corporate a lot where I wouldn't wear makeup to work and I got told a few times like, you look really tired. hate that line. Or like, oh my god, you know, it, it, look, it doesn't look like you care or that you wanna try. And I actually rebelled so hard against that once and was like, do you want me to put, put more effort into figuring out what to do with my face in the morning? Or would you rather I wash my face and bring my best to work? Cuz like I know which one I would prefer, but if you're really focused on my face, I guess I could divert some energy to that. I don't really care. Right?
Tarzan Kay (22:19):
Yes. Do you want me to perform my gender or do you want me to perform my job? ?
Angie Colee (22:23):
Right. Oh my, that's such a you're good. These qui be one-liners. I
Tarzan Kay (22:27):
Put that in the show notes
Angie Colee (22:29):
, but we're definitely gonna put that in the show notes. And I think this is such an important part of this discussion of like building a business that feels good to you, that feels authentic to you, that feels right to you and that's gonna be a little bit different for every person. And I get so when people pretend or, or think that there is one path to success and the reason that I'm not finding the success that I want or hitting the goal that I have in mind for myself is because I didn't follow that one person's path to success and do the thing that they did. Disgusting.
Tarzan Kay (23:03):
Yeah. The problem is then that then you get stuck of like mm-hmm. , oh, I picked the wrong model, so now I have to follow this person's step-by-step system. Mm-hmm. . And then even if you pick one person's step-by-step system, there's always like, well the secret, the real secret is in the next level thing and that's why you haven't made it work yet. Like, oh goodness, that's never it. We all have to like, just try things and Yeah. Iterate and fail at lots of things.
Angie Colee (23:32):
That's the unsexy side of business. Like, you just have to do and you have to commit to doing whether you fail or not. And sometimes you fail, sometimes it's a big public fail, sometimes it's a private one that you get to gloss under the, the rug a little bit. But you learn a lesson and you're gonna learn way more from that than just following somebody else's steps blindly. And I just, I don't want anybody listening to give away their power in that way. If somebody's telling you to do something and there's something in your gut that says, I don't, I don't like that, that doesn't feel right to me. Pay attention. Modify the part that feels icky and do it the way that you feel it should be done. Don't just blindly follow people. That's okay to not blindly follow people. Do it your way. It's fine.
Tarzan Kay (24:14):
Yeah. And we do need the systems too. Yeah. Like I used them. I, I just like, somehow I knew that I could, I, I guess I was just doing what I could. So I skipped a lot of steps, but it's funny. Um, the other day I got on a call with one of my students and she had an evergreen funnel that was like really working like gangbusters mm-hmm. and she was good
Angie Colee (24:39):
Problems to have.
Tarzan Kay (24:40):
Yes. I yeah, yeah. She, she, she was like, yeah, I took digital course academy and so I put together the funnel that Amy recommended and, and it's made like all these like millions of dollars mm-hmm. and she doesn't do anything. And I was like, okay, do you know that? Like this is incredibly rare. Yes. Like this almost never happens. Everybody wants
Angie Colee (25:06):
To be
Tarzan Kay (25:06):
You the whole Yeah. Everybody wants to be you. And the funny part was she didn't even know, she was like, oh really? Mm-hmm. , oh, oh this is unusual. I was like, yes, most evergreen funnels totally flop and breaking even is considered a success. F y i and she had no idea cuz she had just followed the step-by-step system and it worked. She was like, yeah, well I guess the system works. Uh, sometimes the system does work, but in like 99.999% of all other cases, yes. You have to figure it out yourself.
Angie Colee (25:37):
Yes. And I like, if you're in the need, I, I guess that's where it reconciles for me because if you need to figure it out for yourself and you don't know where to start, then yes. Pick a system that feels good to you. Yeah. And follow that mm-hmm and follow it step by step so that you can learn the breaking points for yourself, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. Because it works for a lot of people. That doesn't mean it works for everybody. And it's okay if you run into some friction with it. There might be some missing context for you or you might be aiming at the wrong people and a couple years from now with some more experience, you'll be able to actually use that and make it work this time around cuz you'll have that missing detail. But like if you don't know where to go, following a system is great and if in the course of following the system something disconnects. Yeah,
Tarzan Kay (26:20):
Cool.
Angie Colee (26:20):
Trash it.
Tarzan Kay (26:21):
I think one issue that comes up with a lot of businesses is they're like, okay, they took one program and they're trying to make it work and it didn't quite work. So then they go and take another program and learn a whole nother system. Like, I'm gonna do courses. No, I'm gonna do memberships. No, I'm gonna do mastermind, blah blah blah. And they're like taking course after course, which is fine. Totally. Uh, well I take courses all day long, love courses, however.
Angie Colee (26:45):
Oh yeah. I'm a course junkie.
Tarzan Kay (26:46):
Some somewhere in there like before you buy into a whole nother system to get someone's program where you actually can talk to someone who's experienced, who can help you make like someone with more experience who can help you make decisions about how you're gonna implement the systems you already know. Yes. Rather than trying to get a whole nother system. So mm-hmm. like when you're considering like where to spend your money, like you probably have a hundred systems are already that you learned. So before spending on another one, like who can actually has the know-how to help you implement something and figure out what's gonna work for you.
Angie Colee (27:27):
It's so great that you bring that up because I love hammering on this idea of getting outside your own head. And we see this happening in both directions, right? Like with the student that you talked about, she's the, she's the rarity, she's the one. And she doesn't even realize that this isn't normal because it's just her experience. Right. From her own lived perspective. She has no reason to believe that nobody else is doing the same thing as her. So getting outside her own head helps her realize how far she's come, how much she's accomplished, how much is a great thing. And I hope she's celebrated the outta that after you pointed it out to her . And by the same token Yeah, me too. Uh, we're sending it out into the universe. If you were listening, I hope you were celebrating, we're celebrating for you. Um, and by the same token, like if you're struggling with something, this might be a more common problem then you think you are probably not alone and this is probably not the first time that somebody else has had to deal with this. There might be solutions out there that you're not seeing and maybe you don't have to burn it to the ground because you're frustrated. Hmm. This could be solvable, but get outside your own head to figure that out. Right. Don't try and figure it all out on your own. Yeah,
Tarzan Kay (28:30):
Definitely. And and adding to that like to keep working on the same thing, like rather than creating something new, okay, that didn't work, let me like create another course or another thing like try the same like my program email stars. Let me tell you how many iterations this thing has been through. Like Hmm. It started out as a group program with 18 people and it was $3,500 or $6,500 if you also wanted to have a v i p day with me mm-hmm . So, and it was like I taught the whole thing live and created the re recorded version. The next time I offered it, it cost more. It was like $5,000 but it was like you got more way more time with me. I don't even know, I don't know why it was $5,000 cuz I think it's actually way better now and it costs less.
Tarzan Kay (29:23):
Anyway, after that it became like a scalable program and for many years it was $1,500 except sometimes we sold it on Black Friday and it was, the price was the same, but I don't know, you got different stuff anyway. Like, it's been six years, five or six years to get to the version where it is now. And I think it's the best it's ever been. And now I only take 20 people and now you actually get one-on-one time with me and the calls are really small. Like I personally review people's emails. Like it's honestly way better than it was when I charged $5,000 for it mm-hmm. and now it's like 2,500. And um, like it's just, it's evolving as the industry evolves, as people's needs change as I learn like what works. Mm-hmm. , I, I think a big part of why my business is successful and I can actually rely on this program to pay me a comfortable salary is because I stuck with it. Like Yeah. It's been email, email, email for seven years.
Angie Colee (30:30):
Yes. That's, I mean the tenacity is something that we don't talk enough about in entrepreneurship, like determination and tenacity and uh, well I like to call it stubbornness cuz that's what I consider myself to be just, I'm committing to this and I wanna find a way to make this work. It's not, it's a different energy from I need this to work, which is a valid way to get started. Yes, I need this to work, but like at some point I really want this to work. I'm gonna find a way Kick Asss in and helps get you over the hurdles where you might burn down and otherwise great, great business for you, but you haven't quite figured out where the gap is that you need to solve for.
Tarzan Kay (31:08):
Yes.
Angie Colee (31:08):
And I love that you brought up iterations too, because I see so many people who want to put something out there, but they get hamstrung by this need to get it perfect and to have it be a knock outta the park success from day one. And if they get anything less or you know, say compared to yours, they got, you got 18 and they got two and now they're supremely disappointed because they're unfairly comparing themselves against someone else. Like iteration is the name of the game and I see a sale as a win and showing you that there's, there's something here. So I know, yeah. I don't know where I'm going with that thought other than I totally get how disappointing it is to want so many more sales and get one or two people in the door, but just Yeah. What if you refocused it to lucky them, man, we're gonna go so deep on this and they're gonna get so much of my time and attention and I'm gonna make sure that this is a Kick Ass experience for those two people and they're going to be so grateful that they invested in this program because of that.
Tarzan Kay (32:05):
Yeah. You know, the first time I launched a program, it was an email marketing program and it was called Email Empire and I think I sold four mm-hmm. , like I thought I had 750 subscribers. So had I been a little more realistic, I wouldn't have thought this, but I had 750 subscribers. I really thought it was gonna make a hundred thousand dollars. Mm-hmm. , I was like counting the sales in my head way before the sales page even was written mm-hmm. . And then I made four sales and I was so freaked out. I never sold that program again. Oh wow. And I looked at it like, maybe like a year or two later I looked at it and I was like, why did I take this? Like, why didn't I sell this again? It was like actually really quite good. It was a beginner program, but yeah, it was certainly worth a few hundred dollars.
Tarzan Kay (33:03):
Like absolutely for my first program it was really quite good, but I was so freaked out that I totally abandoned it and then a year and a half later created something like a whole new program from scratch, which was a lot better. But still, like had I had, I, you know, maybe known that I was just gonna start slow and get my first few students, like I, you know, I could have saved myself some pain, um mm-hmm. . But yeah, having a, having small manageable goals like it fe it's great. Like I, in the, you know, the last couple years with my team, we were setting bigger and bigger goals and it was becoming harder to hit those goals. And in like the, you know, 20 20, 20 22 was a really hard year for selling courses. Mm-hmm. , I hope 2023 is easier. So far it has been, but maybe it's just me.
Tarzan Kay (33:58):
Um, but 2022 was very hard and so we were like constantly falling short of our goals or getting, you know, it was, we're constantly at kind of just enough just kind of treading water and that was hard. And now my goals are much smaller, but I am remembering again, that feeling of meeting a goal. Yes. And I'm like, oh, this is, so this feels so good. Yes. So when I'm goal setting with my students, I'm like, really? Okay, let's look at the number of subscribers you have, like mm-hmm. , are you doing sales calls? No. You're doing this passively. Okay, well like here's how many people that you could reasonably expect. And yes, I mean I, I have 14,000 subscribers ish. You know what? I haven't looked in a while and I haven't run ads and I don't create content. So it could be 13, could be 12, I don't even know.
Tarzan Kay (34:49):
Yeah. Anyway, I don't have that many subscribers, but I have a lot compared to my students and I am taking 20 people, so mm-hmm. with that many subscribers and 20 people, it's like so easy. Yeah. But I have a lot of students that are like, well I have 500 people or I have a thousand people and my goal is 20 sales. I'm like, okay, so like, let's talk about that. Yes. Whatcha you gonna do to get those 20 sales? Because like, you're gonna have to work for them. You can't do, you don't look at my business as like, oh, I wanna do what Tarzan does. Well Tarzan does that cuz she has like way more email subscribers. Yes. So that's a realistic goal setting is something that I wish someone had taught me early on. Mm-hmm. , but live and learn, here we are. Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that up. I
Angie Colee (35:36):
Think that we, we stay at the level that we need to be at until we learn the thing that we need to learn. And lord knows I'm well the stubbornness works both ways. Both for keeping me in the game and also for, uh, hitting my head against the wall. I like to call it trying to make a door with my forehead. There's a door over there,
Tarzan Kay (35:53):
Just
Angie Colee (35:53):
Go over there. Um, but like realistic goals is something like often when we're setting goals, we will pluck a number out of thin air because it feels good. It feels good. Mm-hmm. to say a hundred thousand. It feels good to say I'm gonna make 20 sales. But you also have to take that step back and go, okay, cool. What assets do I have working for me toward hitting that goal? What liabilities do I have against me? And I was glad that you mentioned things like are you doing direct selling or are you doing passive? How is this going? What does your list size look like? How do all of these things conspire to help you get closer to that goal? Okay. Now that we've looked at all of these things in context and we've realized that there's probably a shortfall between what you've actually got and where you're hoping to go. How do we make up that gap? Like if you can look at this as that kind of process, as you're setting goals for yourself, look at your goals and ask yourself if you're being realistic, if you're judging yourself unfairly for failing to hit your goals. Cuz maybe that's just, you were never gonna hit that goal cuz it was an unrealistic goal and that's okay.
Tarzan Kay (36:55):
Yeah. I mean, my first launch there, that was like totally fricking unrealistic. Mm-hmm. , there's . If I did, if I crunched a few numbers, it would've been obvious if I'd had a coach or like someone who knew it would've told me. But you know, I was in all these funnels of people promising the moon and total transformation and mm-hmm. , you know, the bikini, remember the bikini business coach? I don't remember her. Okay.
Angie Colee (37:22):
Oh my gosh. I need to look that up now. Guess
Tarzan Kay (37:24):
She, I don't, I haven't seen her in a while. She must have rebranded. Mm-hmm. , this was my first year in business in 2016 and she was all over Instagram, the bikini business coach. And she'd be like at a resort like running her business and you know, I thought it was gonna be that easy. Geez.
Angie Colee (37:43):
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Be last night. I'm, I'm, uh, currently with my business partner as we get ready to head into an event tomorrow and last night we were hanging out at the hot tub and I realized I brought my, I had meant to bring my more conservative bottoms because for the first time in my life I own a bikini and as a chubby girl, like that's an act of rebellion. The fact that I don't have six pack abs Yes. And I dared to, to put myself in a Yes. A two-piece. It is. And so when I realized I had grabbed the skimpier bottoms last night, I was like, eh, I'm feeling really uncomfortable. And then eventually I was like, you know what, just get in the water, have a good time. Put a bikini on your body. That's what makes it a bikini body. Yes. Yes.
Tarzan Kay (38:21):
Five. Yeah, Angie.
Angie Colee (38:24):
Yes. Yes. Well I'm getting away from that. Like, you have to look a certain way, you have to act a certain way. Mm-hmm. , I've definitely had conversations behind the scenes with like, how professional do people think I am if I'm presenting with permission to Kick Ass and telling stories. I literally told a story in an email. Yeah. Oh yeah.
Tarzan Kay (38:39):
Well I I can speak to that because like I, I do have a lot of dominant identities. I'm white mm-hmm. , I, and you know, I check a lot of boxes with my, you know, you, I wish your subscribers could see, your listeners could see my beauty. Yes. Cause I'm also so beautiful.
Angie Colee (38:54):
You are stunning. You are stunning.
Tarzan Kay (38:56):
Okay. Uh, there's also some things about me that are like unusual. Like as a person, I talk a lot about being a cult survivor. I mm-hmm. Use drugs. I talk about that. Like I do a lot of things online that are unusual. Mm-hmm. . And that's like what I love the most about my business is that I get to be seen. I like for my beauty and my beautiful earrings to be seen. But yes, more importantly, I really like being that's the most rewarding thing. Mm-hmm. about my business. The number one thing is like I get to be Tarzan and honestly Yes. My, like even in my own family, like my family is very transphobic my family. Mm-hmm. is like, thinks also like I'm the, like the weirdo in my family. Mm-hmm. And that's a whole other thing. My email subscribers though, like, it's like, feels like home. And yes, I love that I get to be that I get to be that in the world. And uh, I feel, anyway, I don't know how he got on this topic, but I feel very lucky to be those things.
Angie Colee (40:10):
This is a good topic because it's gonna make me good and ranty like, look guys, I don't care what side of the spectrum you feel, I don't care how you identify in this and Angie lands, we preach love and that people get to be who they are and that you don't have to understand and it doesn't have to make sense for you because it's not your life and it's not your body. And so if you're in here thinking, ah, weird and you're judging people and and stuff like that, that's great. It's probably not the podcast for you cuz I'm gonna keep talking about like this. This is important to me. Other people's lives don't have anything to do with you unless they're, I actually harming you. So like, let people live their lives. That is the motto here. And how this ties back into everything that you're saying is like, it can be scary to put yourself out there, especially in this quick to anger, quick to judge us versus them culture. But what I really love about the internet, and I have loved since I was 14 years old, was that it is easier than ever to find your tribe of weirdos and to like rock your weird in the best possible way. And we are all geeking out over this weirdness. I mean like whoever thought that dungeons and Dragons would be cool. That's cool now. Yeah. That's amazing.
Tarzan Kay (41:20):
Yeah, man.
Angie Colee (41:21):
And I say that without a trace of irony or judgment. Like I remember how much it was made fun of growing up and even though I don't play it now, I'm like, yeah, like look at people have these tabletop sets and the costumes and the mm-hmm. What's the
Tarzan Kay (41:33):
School? Mm-hmm. . . Yeah. It was the golden age of being a weirdo. Yeah.
Angie Colee (41:38):
Yes. Mm-hmm. be your weird self. Put yourself out there. Yes. That does mean that you're going to get some people that don't get it. You might get some weird comments and some side eye, but like, we gotta let that roll off your, your, your back. Like, like a duck with water rolling off their back. Like they, they don't get it. It's not for them. And man, they don't get to take part in your world. Boom.
Tarzan Kay (41:58):
Yeah. But sucks for them. And sometimes, sometimes they do though. Like I had this great experience recently or it was last year and um, one of my subscribers hit reply on an email and she was like, this is the third time this month that you've talked about your sex life or like, uhhuh your, which is weird. I'm like, I don't talk about sex that much anyway. , I guess I had mentioned something about my lovers or like, I'm in a throttle mm-hmm. or like whatever. Anyway, I, she says this is the third time this month mm-hmm. and I'm like, oh, you know, I replied back and I was like, oh, you know, you can unsubscribe if you want. Like I won't be offended. But also if you could like stick around and you could just hate on them. Like if you want to Yeah.
Tarzan Kay (42:45):
Cause they're entertaining and I never heard from her, didn't hear back. And then, uh, like a couple months later I was on a sales call and she was like, yeah, I was that person. Oh wow. And she was like, you know, I am I am I I think she might have even been like orthodox shoe. Mm-hmm. . And she said, you know, like, I don't really agree like with your lifestyle choices or something like that. I don't even know what she said. It wasn't political, but she was like, I don't have to agree with you to like be in this, in this program and learn from you. And I was like mm-hmm. , yes. No you don't. Yes. That's the whole point is like, I am out here being me writing with a lot of personality, showing, you know, teaching on email marketing and you don't have to agree with me in order to be in my programs.
Tarzan Kay (43:39):
Mm-hmm. , I mean there, there are certain things where I draw the line like I don't do mlm Yeah. Because of my history with cults. Like I just can't do Yeah. Things like the, there's, there are, there are places where I'm like, don't join mm-hmm. if you are this. But for the most part, like, you know, people find my difference. Interesting. Yeah. And often, you know, there's occasionally people I do, I have this one subscriber I used to talk a lot about how much I love Kanye, which I don't anymore because Kanye unfortunately just got to Kanye. Yeah. Um, but I do really love Kanye's music and Kanye's album Jesus is King, like really was like my life raft during my divorce. So I talked a lot about Kanye and that for a while I was in this throttle. And then maybe there was another thing that was like, I don't know what it was. They had this subscriber hit reply though, and she was like, I love Kanye and I was in Aple and this other thing we have in common too. And I was like, what are the chances? That's really weird. Yes. And um, but like by and large that is not the case. Yeah. Like people are very different, but they do, I think people do appreciate a window into someone's life that they can relate to that's also very different. So
Angie Colee (45:01):
Yes. Especially if they can break like, the conventional assumptions that we have around what success looks like, what normal looks like. Normal is a invented concept. So is money. Like get with it guys. We made it up, we can unmake it. Um, and I love that you like the last thing that anybody could ever accuse you of is being a copycat. Right?
Tarzan Kay (45:21):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. True. Like
Angie Colee (45:23):
You're out there being a hundred percent original, totally authenticate to yourself, not worried. Well, I mean, I can't speak to whether you're worried about it or not, but like not preoccupied with perfection the way some folks are that stalls them out from doing things for years and years for fear of judgment. And what I love about that Yeah. Is how that builts that genuine connection for the woman that came back to you on a sales call mm-hmm. because, and that just circles back to my little side rant earlier about kindness. Like, you didn't have to make an example of her, you didn't have to skewer her. You didn't have to say off if you don't like it. I already like negotiate if that's your personality, just be who you are. . But I love treating people with kindness and being like, Hey, it's great. I, I mean the first time somebody insulted one of my paid ads, I was like, thanks for bumping me up in the algorithm, appreciate the contribution . That's just gonna be who I am. And it has nothing to do with how you treat me. It has everything to do with how I want to be as a person and show up and I'm gonna treat you with kindness. And if you refuse to reflect my kindness back at me, well then you just get blocks. But yeah, no hate.
Tarzan Kay (46:24):
Yeah. Well the way I think about it is, um, like if I get to be my whole self, you get to be your whole self too. Yep. And, uh, I think like I've seen that a lot in my subscribers that they're seeing me do that and they feel like, oh, I could also show up that way. Maybe I could do that. Mm-hmm. a little bit more in my life, in my business. And that's Yes. Something I, that's really exciting to me.
Angie Colee (46:51):
Yeah. It's funny to me because I grew up in that button down world and I got that message of, you know, like, look like you made an effort. Do your, do your makeup, do your hair, don't look so tired, look professional. All of these messages that I got about showing up and being a professional, and I've told this story a couple of times over the last couple days, so it's just funny how thematically it's coming up. My first business event, I remember showing up, you know, in a, in a blazer and covering all the tattoos in the piercings. But then I went to the bar. Thus, thus we tie into the concept of the show. Um, and I had a couple drinks, and I still don't know how I got on this topic to this day, but I wound up telling stories about getting into mosh pit fights in my twenties and how like, I actually enjoyed it because this is a sanctioned place where like violence is just a thing that we all expect and it's okay.
Angie Colee (47:37):
Like, go get out some aggression and then go back to work. And I literally watched people lean in as I was telling this story in all of my tipsy glory. And I remember that like really touching a nerve with me and going, oh, they, they said, who is this? How did I never know this about you? Oh my God, I feel like I'm talking to a completely different person. And that was really the first time that I gave myself permission to be like, yeah, this is, this is who I am. I am this metal head banging, bright haired, tattooed weirdo and it's okay, I can still be a pro and do excellent work and help people build incredible things.
Tarzan Kay (48:15):
Mm.
Angie Colee (48:15):
Oh, this has been such a great conversation. I feel like I wanna keep ranting for like three more hours. I think we're gonna have to like do an Angie and Tarzan series or something. Sure.
Tarzan Kay (48:24):
Anytime.
Angie Colee (48:25):
So tell us a little bit more about where we can find you, where we can learn about your programs, all the details.
Tarzan Kay (48:30):
So I am so excited to debut my new website because Yes. What's currently on the internet or at the time of recording is like a million is like, you know, three transformations ago is like Tarzan and Purple sequin Gucci pants and like these pink stiletto high heels with lightning bolts on them. And it's cute. Like I did, you know, I was like a kid who loved to play dress up mm-hmm. and that's who you see on the website. But I actually grew up as a business owner and as a leader and I have like, I'm so proud of this new website, I cannot wait. Um, it's made by, um, woman named Yevgenia from one Six Creative. She did such a great job. Like, ugh, I never have had this experience working with a designer on a website that was like, so I I she just really figured it out what I needed Yes.
Tarzan Kay (49:35):
My sub site to look like, what I needed my rebrand to look like. Um, so I'm super excited and it also means that I revisited all of the free things that I have to offer. All of the ways you can join my email list. Like free things, paid things. Like my website actually does a really good job. Mm-hmm. . So you could just go to my website, tarzan key.com Fantastic. And see what is there. I strongly would recommend getting on my email list cuz that's really where I do my best work. Like, don't even bother looking at Instagram cuz I'm not even there, honestly. Mm-hmm. , it's some old from February, 2022. So join me in email and if you reply to my emails, I do read them and you reply to most of them.
Angie Colee (50:18):
Awesome. Oh, that's awesome. I, I have a feeling there will be so many interesting conversations and I wanna hear about them. Thank you. So much for being on the show. This has been fascinating. What a privilege to host you and your awesome earrings and your awesome personality and your awesome business. Thank you so much for being on the show, and thanks, Angie. That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you could do it, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go Kick Ass some.