Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, Heming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. And welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today is my friend Sonia Simone. Say hi. Hey,
Sonia Simone (00:38):
Hey, hey, hey. How you all,
Angie Colee (00:39):
I'm so excited for this one, I gotta tell you because uh, okay. Stocker alert. I've been a fan of yours since my early career was like 2008, 2009 when I first started getting interested in copy. And I've Of course Oh, stumbled across copy blogger and I familiarized myself with you And your then hot pink hair. Yeah. I've got my bright red hair today. I see some pink in your hair too. So I'm excited to be talking to you about this. It makes me so happy.
Sonia Simone (01:04):
I, me too. I'm ex Yeah, you you did, you did come on early cuz that was the early days, so that's pretty cool. Mm-hmm. . I love
Angie Colee (01:12):
That. Yeah. That was super early days and I was like so impressed with everything that you guys were doing. So you've always been on my radar. And then when we got to meet several years ago in public, I was just like, I want this woman in my world. I want her in my world. So,
Sonia Simone (01:23):
Yay. And here I am, baby here.
Angie Colee (01:26):
She's all. Tell us a little bit about your business.
Sonia Simone (01:30):
Yeah, so, um, for folks who haven't like hung out with me before, I was one of the founding partners of a company called Copy Blogger Media. Um, this was the company that was founded really resting on the copy blogger blog, which I did not found that was founded by my partner Brian Clark. Um, and I did that for about 10 years. Um, big audience, wide reach. Um, I, I taught like literally more than 300,000 people with my course on Coursera, on strategy of content marketing. Wow. Uh, so lot of one to many, lots of courses, lots of groups on and 10 years of groups. And these days I'm like, not, I'm not doing groups right now. . Yeah. I'm not doing that one to many. So these days, um, a shift of gears a lot. And right now what I do is I work with folks.
Sonia Simone (02:31):
They're not just getting started. Like they've pulled some stuff together. Mm-hmm. , they might have an audience, they might have a course, they might a lot. I work with a lot of freelancers who have, you know, pretty good careers going. And I get people at that moment when you say was they're not supposed to be like, more money and less work at some point in this project because I, I'm not seeing it. Um, and so I, I work very, very specifically with people looking to work with their clients or their customers on a deeper level mm-hmm. . And, um, we do that by putting together a high value offer. A high value distinct from, you know, necessarily high ticket. I mean, I love a nice v i p day as much as the next person, but there's more to life than that. Yeah. and more to business than that.
Sonia Simone (03:26):
Um, so yeah, so I just work really closely with folks. We have this kind of hybrid model of, um, a structured framework, a very small group mastermind, and then some one-on-one work. Um, and I just basically like, you know how so many coaches are like, I don't wanna hold anybody's hand. Mm-hmm. , I'm the other kind of coach. I'm the kinda coach who totally loves holding people's hand . So Yeah. So like wing work just really my tagline is get focused, get supported, get paid. And so, Ooh, I love that. We're all about that. Um, we spend six months together, we make, you know, kind of some pretty cool things happen and then you're on for the, you know, the next, the next great thing.
Angie Colee (04:10):
Yeah. I think that's awesome. And it's funny that you brought up v i p days cuz I offer v i p days, but I'm totally with you on that. There's more to life than that. They, you can get a lot of stuff done on a v i p day. Yeah. You can get real focused and real deep and also it takes a lot out of you. Cuz that is a lot to tackle in one day and then the prep work and the follow up and stuff like that. So there is definitely more to life than VIP days. They're fun. They're not my favorite offer. Yeah.
Sonia Simone (04:37):
A v i p day takes so much outta me mm-hmm. and yeah. It's like, for me it's vi p two weeks, so why am I selling this v i p day mm-hmm. , but, you know, but some people it's exactly their, their rhythm. I mean, you know, we're just so different. But yeah,
Angie Colee (04:51):
That's what I love about business because what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. And we get to find our own rhythm, our own offers. Like you mentioned the handholding coaches and I think, I think I, I definitely agree with you that I love to hold their hands, but I think the people that are against handholding are of the misconception that handholding is dragging somebody along fireman carrying them to the next set of obstacles or something. And I'm like, yeah, I don't see that as all. Like here I'm gonna hold your hand. Look, there's a gap there. Step over the gap. Okay. You have to use your feet, use your feet. There's a gap. Step up. Okay, come on, let's go.
Sonia Simone (05:29):
Yeah. I mean, and I, I think there's a lot of things behind that. I think there's a lot of things behind that. I think sometimes, you know, like I think in one-on-one coaching, it's really easy for a thing to happen where you get together, you have this really deep, amazing conversation. You're both really energized. Your person has homework, you're like, okay, I'll see you in two weeks or three weeks or four weeks. And they don't do their homework and then they're, and then they're ashamed .
Angie Colee (06:01):
Yeah.
Sonia Simone (06:01):
And, you know, and like I've, it's a thing that happens and it's probably because maybe the program is not totally hand in glove designed for that person and the way they work. Yes. Or, or the person is like me. Like you and I were talking before we started recording, like when the pandemic happened, I noticed all these people started behaving like me mm-hmm. . So I would hear all these people who were like super on it and the kind of people, you know, this horrible people who get things done, like a lot of things done without getting nagged
Angie Colee (06:36):
And these,
Sonia Simone (06:37):
And these people are like, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like, I have to write what I'm doing on a card so I don't forget that I'm doing it while I'm doing it. I'm like mm-hmm. . Oh yeah, that's a good one. I do that a lot. Yeah. I've been doing that like since I was 10. Um, you know, there's, there's like super chronic anxiety that lasts for years mm-hmm. messes with a person's focus a little bit. Um, so yeah, I, I don't know. I've been, I've been the person who just totally shot myself in the foot on the follow up so much mm-hmm. and I, I actually have a lot of insights about why that happens. That it doesn't happen because people are flaky, that it doesn't happen because people are not cut out for business. It's just like, yeah. Oh yeah. That's a pattern. Uhhuh ,
Angie Colee (07:26):
I, I see a lot of the same things and I've experienced that myself Yeah. Too, going through business coaching. I know for me personally, and I see this reflected a lot in my students, and maybe it's just kind of that law of attraction thing. I, I attract people who vibe with my style. So they foc they, they function similarly. But for me, like eight or nine times outta 10 when I'm resisting doing the work, it's either a function of fear or overwhelm. And like I've convinced myself that it is way too much and I've, I've like spent five hours planning this and in reality if I had just jumped into it, it probably would've taken me like five minutes. That happens to me all the time.
Sonia Simone (08:02):
. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like any given task requires at least three hours of overthinking it until you work yourself out Yeah. Into this state of like paralysis and catatonia. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. And, and you know, I know like there's a lot of the ADHD community that is not down with this whole ADHD as a superpower thing. And I get why, because that's components that are like, oh, you know, that's just a disability. It, it just sucks. We're not gonna glamorize it, but because there's so much flexibility in what you do and what I do mm-hmm. , I can leverage the things that have always been hard for me in ways to empathize with somebody and help them have less pain with it. And I, and I do think that's super think power. I think that's really awesome.
Angie Colee (08:54):
I do think it's a super too. And you know, I would disagree with the folks that, I mean, I do understand that there are, um, disorders and mental health challenges that are debilitating in a different way. The way my d h d manifests itself is, uh, when I can turn on hyperfocus, oh man, I know I can get, I can get work done that it would take other people 10 to 12 hours to do in like two to three hours and just host the rest of the time. Like I can. But the challenge is tricking my brain into getting into hyperfocus mode and not, uh, not lapsing into the three hours of over-planning in advance
Sonia Simone (09:30):
And, and not, and not doing that thing where you're living on anxiety adrenaline all the time. Yes. Because you can, you know, you can only get to it when, so like for me, something I've, I've since the start of the pandemic, I, I sold my interest in copy blogger in 2019. Um, amazing timing. Summer of 2019. I got a, you know, a decent sized check and a lot of free time .
Angie Colee (09:58):
Yes.
Sonia Simone (09:59):
I'm so smart. Um, . But I, from that time, from the, from start of the pandemic, I've really been thinking about structures to help people. I sort of think about it in this goofy way. Like it's kind of like your, your seatbelt or your safety belt. Like, and you're in a spaceship. Like it's all, you know, you're in your structure and your structure's there to support you and take care of you and get you what you need to do the mission and make sure you don't, you know, die mm-hmm. and, and building those structures that are suited to people like you and me who, you know, we get bored and structure's not necessarily like the thing we seek out, but when you get one that's good for you, that's a good fit. It's so nourishing to just say, I know when that's going to happen and I know I trust myself and I trust my system. That's like, that's, it feels really good when you get there.
Angie Colee (11:03):
It does. And I'm glad that you brought that up to, because that's actually been a conscious focus of mine for probably the past, you know, 18 months or so is okay. Recognizing that one of my tools for, for dealing with undiagnosed A D H D was leveraging that kind of panic mode and hyperfocus in that adrenaline rush and just cranking, cranking, cranking. And I could do, you know, 10, 12, 15 hour days at that pace. But that is also the path to burnouts. Like, you ju it's, you can do it. It's not sustainable. It's not healthy, it's not the optimal way to do it. So my trick over the past 18 months, the, the challenge has been unlearning these, you know, decades of overproduction, overproducing stressing my body to the max, uh, in order to leverage that super focus and figuring out, okay, so how do I get things done if I'm not deliberately tripping myself into adrenaline mode?
Sonia Simone (12:04):
Yeah. Yeah. Because it will, it will make you really very sick. Mm-hmm. if you live, if you live on adrenaline that long. That's why, you know, folks like us, I mean, we have more problems with addiction. We have more problems with, with, um, a whole bunch of bad things. And I think a lot of it is that, is that living on a constant diet of like maxed out stress chemicals, you know, and it's just, it's hard. It's like, it's not, you know, it's kind of fun for a while and then it's really not fun.
Angie Colee (12:38):
Yeah. And when it's not fun, it's usually not fun in the worst possible way. Like I was, I was actually talking to a consultant client earlier that we weren't able to do a whole lot because uh, this person is in extreme like physical pain. Yeah. And so we started talking about that and like, are, do we need to cancel this call? Like you don't have to be, we don't wanna add more pressure when you're already in pain. Like this is a time to rest and your body is clearly signaling that. And you know, at the risk, I don't wanna, uh, give too much detail away cuz that's their personal situation, but did come out that it was a lot of stress manifesting and a lot of anxieties that are kind of piling on each other, leading to this excruciating pain. And our solution was, okay, shutting down the call, please talk to like, sit in the hot tub, get a massage, go to the chiropractor, do a meditation, do whatever you need to do to bring these stress levels back down so that we can start to figure out what's going on. Cuz you're not going to be able to work when you're in that much pain. So we gotta get you out of the pain mode before we can. And, and like the answer is not, well let's just push through because we got a lot of stuff to get done and we got deadlines to hit. We set the deadlines so we can move the deadlines. It's not ideal. Right. But
Sonia Simone (13:48):
We can do it. . Right. Who's the set this calendar up. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. , it's me. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's
Angie Colee (13:55):
Me. Oh, that was the thing I think that drove me the most nuts about my career as a copywriter because of, we're often up against these impossible publication deadlines, launches have these huge schedules and these deadlines to hit. And and I was talking to one of my coaches one day and he pointed out to me, Angie, you're, if you hit the deadlines, you're already a champion because the deadlines are arbitrary. Doesn't mean that they're unimportant and you can skip them cuz there's a real cost to moving deadlines sometimes. But we set them, we can move them. That's okay. There's no rule that says that once you set this, it's set in stone. It's not, and I mean like in certain contexts that I used to work in, like I, I did print catalogs. Okay. If we're talking about missing a print deadline, that is a huge expense to get those machines back on, on our rush. Like we don't miss print deadlines. But ever at the deadline, eh, there's a little bit more flexibility than it might seem. Maybe that email goes out tomorrow instead of today so that we don't have a heart attack in the pursuit of getting this email out today.
Sonia Simone (14:57):
Yeah. Well I have also, I have also leveraged like people who are not wired like I am. So I have been on teams with people who are like, like the woman who's the editor-in-chief at copy blogger, she is brilliant. She was my editor-in-chief and she's still their editor-in-chief and she is, Stephanie is like the opposite. And so she would help, you know, she created the structure and it was like, here's your part where you show up and do your thing. Mm-hmm. . And if I have that, and also I have the thing of like, I don't wanna let Stephanie down cuz that would be terrible. But if she, she, she was smart enough not to put a bunch of like, crap that was really poorly suited to my talents. It was like, no, somebody else is gonna do the crappy part, but you need to come and do the part you're, that's your thing. Mm-hmm. . It was magical. It was magical. So sometimes, you know, sometimes there's a lot of answers. There's a lot of right answers. But the answer is not like you're a flake. The answer is not you're lazy. I mean, the number of actually lazy people I've ever met is not large.
Angie Colee (16:08):
Yeah.
Sonia Simone (16:09):
And
Angie Colee (16:09):
It's not,
Sonia Simone (16:10):
It's not the people who get labeled lazy mm-hmm. when people get so overwhelmed that they just can't function, they get real still and it looks like lazy. It's not lazy. Mm-hmm. .
Angie Colee (16:22):
Yeah. I thought there was one, um, program that I've been in a few times run by my friend Dr. Julie, but usually she calls that being below the line. Mm-hmm. where you're stuck in survivalism or escapism just getting by or just kind of, you know, I need an escape from the reality of life. So I'm gonna play this game on my phone for the next three hours.
Sonia Simone (16:43):
Yep.
Angie Colee (16:44):
And it looks like lazy, but it's really just, I need an escape because this is just too much and I don't know how to cope. And so I have a lot of, you know, love and empathy for that. Cause I've been there myself.
Sonia Simone (16:55):
Well, and, and I think part of our work right. Is too, with a lot of love and kindness, say like, do I feel better at the end of that three hours on the phone game because I think I kind of don't mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. like there may be some more, there may be some strategies that would, you know, um, be more productive. Absolutely. But, um, punching ourselves in the face, I have found singularly unhelpful. ,
Angie Colee (17:25):
That's like the line of the episode right there. Punching yourself in the face. It's pretty unhelpful. Just, just so you know, and I love that you brought up this, the structure and things that are suited for personality because the, the further I've gotten in my business, I've, I've started to discover this kind of inclination toward systems operations, team development. Like that's, I'm very passionate about that and I've gotten pretty good cuz I, you know, before I left the world of copywriting, I was a copy chief and pretty well respected at that. And one of the things that, you know, I, I guess it came naturally to me, but I worked really hard on developing it too, was that same thing that you brought up of, I noticed where my team members' interests were, where their skills were, what they got excited about, and that a lot of that was just conversations and then asking people what they wanted to work on, what they found exciting. Like balancing the workload of, okay, here's this fun task that none of us want to tackle, so we'll switch out so that nobody's getting overloaded with that. But you know, they got plenty of projects to work on that they were excited about. And when I put them in the lane where they were good at it and they were excited, things got done. Oh my gosh.
Sonia Simone (18:31):
Right. It's like Dennis, it's like Dennis Rodman, you know? Mm-hmm. , like Dennis Rodman was only a great player because he had a coach who let him do his weird Dennis Rodman thing, you know, on another team, you know, on another team with another coach, with a different set of, of, of teammates. He was too weird. He was too quirky. He was too, you know, his personality is playing style and writers, like most writers are like that, managing writers. It's like mm-hmm. next level.
Angie Colee (19:08):
Like for years I was told I was way too much or way too little or like not professional enough was the too little, like totally unprofessional with my visible piercings and tattoos and bright hair. Like you couldn't have told that from me from the very first interview. But or like, too much because I would share personal stories or like the, my, I've joked before that my, uh, you know, again, A D H D is, I, I just tend to not be aware of something and I get caught up so, so much in the moment in the excitement of telling the story that I can usually only tell I cross the line when someone's face changes and then my brain goes, oh crap,
Sonia Simone (19:44):
Uhhuh
Angie Colee (19:44):
. What did I say? What, what just happened there? That was too much. I see a reaction now I gotta figure out how to undo this. But
Sonia Simone (19:52):
Next, next level of fun is doing that on a stage when you're giving a talk. You know, that's being live streamed.
Angie Colee (20:01):
Oh man, that sounds like a fun story. Will you share that one? I
Sonia Simone (20:04):
Mean, you know, it's the, the the in the moment it's fun mm-hmm. and then the, the emails you get afterwards, you're like, okay. But I wasn't lying though. I mean, you know, Yeah. I mean it was true what I was saying.
Angie Colee (20:19):
Yeah, totally been there before. This is from the, from the woman who thought it would be a very smart idea. Uh, thankfully this company no longer exists, but, uh, there was a, a partnership that the company I used to work for did with, this is my early days of copywriting, y'all. So you're gonna have to forgive me for being young and dumb. Um, we partnered with a solar panel company and we sent out a promo for them and for some reason my brain latched onto, you know what the perfect subject line for this is? The roof is on fire, . No it's not. This is, you know, there's lots of implications that happen with that. Uh, and when that gets sent out, you're not gonna be called into your boss's office. You're gonna be called into the CEO's office and asked why ,
Sonia Simone (21:02):
I wanna let you, I would've silent told him about that. Go. I would've been like, I, cause like nobody's gonna email you if your roof is actually on fire. Who are these people? Why do they worry so much? Geez.
Angie Colee (21:14):
It made their company look bad and unprofessional and it implied that their product was subpar. And I was like, or it was a song lyric.
Sonia Simone (21:21):
Yeah. God, people are, well,
Angie Colee (21:23):
You know, I totally get it. And that kind of ties back into something that you said earlier that I wrote down and circled a lot, which was like, if it's not working for you, maybe it's not the way you work. Mm-hmm. may if, you know, if you don't like the way that somebody on your team is working or if they don't like the way that you're working, maybe it's just not a good fit. Doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you or the, the company, but you're not operating in your lane. You're not swimming in your zone of genius. I don't know why I mixed those up, but that's great.
Sonia Simone (21:52):
Swimming in your operational lane of genius, lane of genius , that could be art book Lane of genius.
Angie Colee (21:58):
I like that.
Sonia Simone (21:59):
Um, yeah, no, and, and I love, one of the things I love about the premise of your show, cuz it's so, it's so true and I haven't seen anybody else do this is, you know, you and I have been, you have bought, and I have been in the room with some like super fancy people mm-hmm. who are very, and they look, I mean, it's part of our job to look like we have our together. That is part of the, that's part of the brief right? Is I have my together and so because I do, I can teach you how to do something you wanted to do mm-hmm. , like not just being a mess publicly is part of the job. And I don't object to that, but Yeah, you get those folks at the bar and it's like, man, you know, and you, I mean, oh seven figure, seven figure launch, seven figure launch and then it's like, I don't know where any of the money is. .
Angie Colee (22:50):
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Sonia Simone (22:52):
That's a total thing. And and it's good for people to know that. And it's not that like, that person and you admire, I, I have a thing I say every, every person that you admire is full of about something . It's just, it's just, it's a universal law. I don't care if it's Gandhi, I don't care who it is, they're full of. And I can tell you what it was with Condi boat, we don't need to go there, but everybody is full of about something that Dai Lama is full of about some stuff and it's okay. It's okay. Mm-hmm. that your heroes know a lot and can keep it together and can project confidence to teach you the things you need to learn mm-hmm. . And it's also ok that that person has blind spots and that makes major, what was I thinking? Mistakes. And that that person has crises of, of confidence. I mean, it's all okay. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it's not like bad or wrong or deceptive for that leader to not be just fallen apart all over the place. Like that's, yeah, that's okay. I mean you, I, I was listening to you the other day and you talked about that getting that advice of, you know, speaking from your scars, not your open wounds. I think that's smart mindset. Yeah.
Angie Colee (24:19):
Yeah. Oh, and that's really helped me with perspective too, because I used to have those, you know, just to go back to what we were talking about earlier, those moments of panic of oh my gosh, was this too much? This thing that I felt called to, to share in the moment, um, was that too much? But once I learned that piece of advice about sharing from scars versus open wounds, that helped me to better gauge, okay, am I still in the middle of this if I'm still in the middle of this, if I'm still suffering, if I'm still upset, sad, whatever the heavy emotions are, then I'm not, I don't have the perspective I need to be able to look at this from the outside. I'm still in it, so I can't see the label on the outside of the bottle. And what I need is for that thing to scab over so I can see what, if any, was my part in this.
Angie Colee (25:03):
Right. What can I take away from this? How can I turn this in a better direction so that it's not something that's holding me back or holding me down. Like, you can't really do that when you're in the thick of it. And I, I actually made a joke with someone earlier that I, I think fighting the feelings, which is what we've been trained to do as entrepreneurs, right. To have that public persona fight the feelings. I think you gotta find your way to process the feelings and let them flow through you. One of my friends says, mind like water, just like let it flow. I, I took that metaphor to like the nth degree and went, okay, so if you're fighting the, the emotions that's kind of like standing on a beach and trying to hold back a wave with your arms. Yeah. One of these waves is gonna come through and knock you on your friends like . It's just not gonna better to just sit down and let that wave carry you to shore. That's what I see is letting the, the emotions go through you and then you're going to be in a place where you can breathe and actually take care of something namely you.
Sonia Simone (25:56):
Yeah. . Yeah. Cuz you're the, you're the thing that you've, you're the piece of equipment you've gotta take really good care of. Mm-hmm. , you know, cuz you're the piece of equipment that can't get replaced. So.
Angie Colee (26:06):
Exactly. That's the important thing here too. You know, we have so many discussions with people who, you know, they're so concerned about starting a business because somebody else has done this and so I can't do it. Or, you know, there's so much competition, I don't know how I stand out. You, you are the, the way that you stand out. You are the only you on this planet. At the risk of getting a little bit ranty, do you know how many things had to line up just perfectly for you to exist? We're talking about billions upon billions of like your mom got in the car and left late and didn't miss your dad. Like, hundreds of little things that had to happen for you to be right here, right now in this moment as you are, you are a freaking miracle. Yes. Everybody listening to this, you are a miracle. Hmm.
Sonia Simone (26:56):
Yep. Yep, yep. Appreciate
Angie Colee (26:58):
It. And the world, the world needs that perspective. If you have the courage to get out there and, and say something about it, don't blend in. Be yourself firmly encouraging that. Embrace all of your foibles and be human. I think that drives me nuts about, uh, celebrity worship culture too, right? Is that we love to build people up, put 'em on a pedestal, pretend they're perfect, and then start picking at 'em.
Sonia Simone (27:21):
Right? And then we Yeah. And then we pull it down again. You know, it's like, well mm-hmm. and, and so much like that early digital business culture was so inherited from like that Napoleon Hill kind of tradition of first of all a lot of like stoic mad men, white dudes coming outta World War ii, , you know, there's some stuff, there was some, some little bit unresolved trauma happening. Um, but there's a lot of that put on the suit, uh, toxic positivity. Mm-hmm. , um, never admit to any kind of real mistake. Yep. Um, very conformist, very not a lot of curiosity about difference. And now I think all kinds of business and digital business especially, I mean, it's like the whole culture is just like, wow, you can't mm-hmm. make, you can't make hardly any assumptions about somebody that you meet.
Angie Colee (28:20):
Yeah.
Sonia Simone (28:20):
There's so many things that they might surprise you with and, um, it's very stressful, but it's also really cool. And from a business perspective, just to get super practical, it means all of a sudden we have lots of different facets of humanity that we could serve. And we don't all just have to stamp out, you know, the same products for, for the same mega corporations marketed mm-hmm. on the same three television channels like the world is. So it's fragmented and that's painful, but it's also really amazing.
Angie Colee (28:58):
Mm-hmm.
Sonia Simone (28:59):
And plus it's the world we've got, so we just gotta do it. So that's cool. I think it's cool.
Angie Colee (29:04):
Well, and I it's opened up a whole lot of opportunity that, that is another thing I don't think that we talk about a whole lot. Like what do you actually want out of your business? What do you want your business to look like? I don't buy it if you pair it back to me, $10,000 a month, a hundred thousand a year, I want a million dollar business. Like, those are numbers that have been fed to you by incredibly good marketing materials, but is that what you want? What are you gonna do with 10,000 a month? What is that gonna help you achieve? I used to believe that too. So I'm sending a lot of love. If that was your first response, uh, what are you gonna do with that once you hit it? What, what was the goal? What does that help you achieve? Um, I actually broke it down once with my life coach and man, I wish I could remember the exact sequence that that led us there, but I was stressing out about money and about an offer that I wanted to get launched.
Angie Colee (29:51):
And of course, whenever you have some money stress that makes all of your plan go sideways and like it, it trips that over planning engine. Right. Because I need everything to go perfect for this thing to go the way that I want. Um, and so he goes, okay, so why did you start this business? And I, I told him, you know, I wanted to make a difference and, and what, and you wanna make some money and what all, what is all of this gonna help you achieve? He just kept asking me questions and I would answer. And ultimately we got down to, so that I can have time and space freedom to spend time with the people that matter to me to go on adventures, to meet new people, expand my horizons, like that's what I wanna do. And he goes, is there any reason that you need money to do that? Like, do you, can you not do that now? And I was like, oh, screw you.
Sonia Simone (30:35):
Right? I could,
Angie Colee (30:37):
I could just go do that now cursing and figure out what I want and how much money it takes to do that instead of going, well I can't do any of that until I have a million dollar business game changer.
Sonia Simone (30:48):
Yeah. Well, I mean there's, so there's, that's the thing is business is so complicated. Mm-hmm. And it's so individual and it's so personal and it's, there's a certain amount of work we have to do. Like, because you know, a lot of times you say, okay, I want a million dollar business. I mean like, on, on some level I want a million dollar business. Oh, so cool. Right. There's a big part of that that's just, we, we do like status. Oh my goodness. Mm-hmm. , oh that's a scary word. We do like to feel, I mean like, we like to feel like we might be kind of important .
Angie Colee (31:25):
Yeah.
Sonia Simone (31:26):
It kind of feels good. And then once you can make your peace with that, because I know so many people are like, no, it doesn't matter to me. It's like, oh, you know, it matters to most people. I mean maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it on some level it matters to most people. And just getting very curious about what do I love? What do I hate? What do I want? How do I wanna live? How do I wanna spend my time? Um, a question that, that I sometimes ask like in my courses or whatever is if like they passed this really, um, draconian law and you could only make money doing one thing mm-hmm. , so you could only have one thing that you exchanged your time for money, you could still have hobbies, what would it be?
Angie Colee (32:11):
Ooh.
Sonia Simone (32:11):
And it's like in, it's intense. It's an intense thing to think about. Um, and then of course, you know, answer two, you know, question two is like, how much of that do you get to do mm-hmm. , you know, how much of that do you get to do?
Angie Colee (32:28):
I love that. I think that often to me, I think gets couched in the like, follow your passion or you know, you know, if you do all of that you'll never work a day in your life. But that's, I think that's an oversimplification. It's true that passion can carry you pretty far when the money is lacking. But, you know, business skills and relationships and networks and an awareness of what you like and what you don't like in your business. And I can't tell you how many people, and I'm sure you've encountered this too, in coaching entrepreneurs build a business exactly like the job they hated mm-hmm. . Cause that's all they really know and they've never taken time to think about what do I actually want out of this? Why am I creating this?
Sonia Simone (33:07):
Yeah. In fact, I have a client and she does a lot of cool stuff with doing very deep work with, um, business owners, not with, with leaders, with like tech leaders. And she sees that all the time that they, they quit their toxic well-paid executive job to go found something smaller and then they bring all that toxicity with them cuz that's what they know. Yeah. You know, and we all do it
Angie Colee (33:31):
And it's hard to undo that without perspective, which is why I'm such a big fan of coaching. You know, say what you will. I, I do remember when I was early in my entrepreneur days thinking that coaching was kind of a scam, kind of a racket. It's just people that wanna sell me. Right. But as I got to know more super smart, super knowledgeable people, I started realizing it for the benefit that it is, if you find the right coach, it's like getting a shortcuts Yeah. And being able to go directly to the front, like you solve problems that it would've taken you days, weeks, months, years to solve on your own because you're getting outside perspective and in some instances talking to somebody who solved a similar problem and can just tell you, Hey, this thing worked for me, it might be worth trying.
Sonia Simone (34:14):
Yeah. And, and I think, you know, like, I mean obviously in the early stages, you know, budgets are a thing and I get that and that's very important. But people will like put that on their spouse or their partner. Mm-hmm. and like your partner a does not know anything about business unless, no, unless they do. But probably they don't and is way too close to things and their financial security is very caught up in what you are doing or struggling with. I mean, it's so messy. So I would say even if your partner is like, I don't know Richard Branson, I still wouldn't go to them and ask them advice. I'd be like, get somebody outside.
Angie Colee (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
Sonia Simone (35:01):
, you know, don't ask your dad, don't ask your, um, you know, get somebody who can have that perspective mm-hmm. and look at you with some compassion and some love and some experience. Please. Yes. And, and, and you know, you've got a good coach when they say, I can't tell you for sure what to do, but I just, like you said, I have tried this and I've seen it work pretty well. Do you think, do you think that's something you could try? Mm-hmm. , do you think that would work? Um, I love Michael. Um, I can't remember his last name. Steiner, there's a middle name. I don't know. He's really good. the coaching habit, that guy, he's so smart and I reread his book every once in a while and he's all about like, quit telling people what to do, ask questions, ask more questions.
Angie Colee (35:53):
Mm-hmm. , in my early days as a coach, I definitely thought, like I've, I've figured out a lot of things. I'm super smart. I'm great at finding shortcuts, so just do it my way. Mm-hmm. , uh, and you'll fix all your problems. Uh, quickly realized that dealing with humans and all of our different backgrounds and foibles and, you know, mental blocks and situations and circumstances, my solution doesn't work for everybody. In fact, in nine times outta 10, it's probably not going to work for somebody in a completely different situation from me. Yeah. But it's a place to start. It's something to try and, you know, so asking questions, I think, you know, just prescribing something to me, this is why it drives me nuts about prescription prescriptive coaching mm-hmm. is that it presumes a lot that may or may not be accurate. And it also adds to the overwhelm I have found of the person because they feel like if they didn't try that thing, if they didn't know about that thing, if they've tried it before and failed or if they're resisting it, they don't like that idea for some reason, that there's something wrong with them and they're never going to be successful.
Angie Colee (36:52):
None of that is necessarily true. And I've found a lot that folks already have an answer inside them, but they're just, they're getting so much outside information that they're second guessing themselves and it's paralyzing them. Have you found something similar?
Sonia Simone (37:07):
Yeah, I mean I think about like some, some women early on in our copy blogger community, you know, we had some women who were like, I'm really like, it's really hard for me to put this together cuz I've got two kids under four and like I'm taking care of my parents and my husband's like not working right now. And then you get these 23 year old dudes Walt in and say, you're just making excuses. And they're like, I'm really not though. Cuz these are real obligations. Yes. And then, and then they get, you're not, you're not coachable. And I think we label ourselves, oh I'm, you know, we, and that's the worst is we do it to ourselves and we say mm-hmm , well this person told me what to do and then I made excuses and I didn't do it. I'm not coachable. Yeah. So anyway, I, if I don't wanna rant for the next 45 minutes, we'll have to cut that short. But don't do that and don't accept that
Angie Colee (38:01):
Anything that you want to do, I mean maybe short of like you flying without any supplemental equipment, like, or, or doing magic is figure outable. Um, but you have, it starts from being able to articulate what you want specifically too. Specificity is key. It's not make more money, it's not lose more weight if it's, if it is starting out at $10,000 a month, okay, cool. I want $10,000 a month, here's what this will help me achieve. Here's how I think I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Go out there and try things. Right. But if you, if you give yourself a goal of like nebulous more money, I mean $5 is more money. Is that helpful? , is that acceptable? Where is the line?
Sonia Simone (38:44):
And there's that great, there's that great el doctoral quote about writing a novel. It's like driving in the dark with your headlights on mm-hmm. like you can only see as far as the headlights go. Yes. But you can get the whole way there. Everything to me, in business you have tensions, so Yes. Is long-term planning and big visions and big goals. Is that good? I think is good. I think it can be mm-hmm. energizing, but you still have to drive the road mm-hmm. only as mm-hmm. , you can only see as far as you can see. And you make the adjustments as you make the adjustments. And so there's always that tension between big dreams and monetary, um, you know, actually getting it done. And there's always that tension between your assets and your constraints. There's so many tensions and we navigate them.
Angie Colee (39:34):
Mm-hmm.
Sonia Simone (39:34):
sometimes we'll grace and sometimes, you know, , sometimes people very well and that's the game. But I think that to make it more marketable and I mean, I love my friends, I do love my friends mm-hmm. , but a lot of times that process is made to sound more like you have a nice neat tidy map Yeah. Than you, you really have mm-hmm. and like, it's not gonna involve any, you know, crying or Yeah. Oh god. Or crying .
Angie Colee (40:14):
Oh yeah. I think that's why I'm such an open book and it really helped me to see somebody else kind of melt down about mm-hmm. You know, midway through my career, somebody that I really respected by the way, and who was, you know, had big contracts with big names and I was like, wait, what you feel anxiety like me? Um, you know, when I experienced the, the breakup that kind of spawned all of the, the travel and stuff a couple years ago, that was one of those things where I was like, scars not open wounds. Scars not open wounds. I'm not gonna talk about this. But then I found myself on a podcast. It was actually Linda Perry, I don't know if you know her mindset first. And Oh yeah, cool. We had had that, uh, podcast recording scheduled for, you know, like a month or two well before the breakup actually happened.
Angie Colee (40:55):
So we got on there and I'm breathing deep and I'm going about my spiel and, and everything's fine. And at the end I can't even remember what questions she asked. So she asked something and I was like, I didn't plan on going into this, but here's my reality right now. Here's what's happening. Um, and I got a lot of people that like reached out to me and they were like, oh my gosh, thank you for sharing that. And it was, you know, I didn't get into snot bubble tears. I, I kind of held it together. Exactly Like you said, that being a leader sometimes requires you to hold it all together and not show them the moments of like, collapsing on the floor in desperation. I've been there, I've done that. Yeah. But I'm not going to do that in front of you because then that becomes easy to focus on. Like that that is a thing, that's a reality that happens in business and I, it's not an attractive thing. It's not a thing any of us want to experience. So, and of course I'm not gonna highlight that, but I will show somebody that I've been through that. I've, you know, and that happened right after I quit my job to start the podcast in the coaching business. So it was like all of this, you can, you can make a way through. So I dunno where I was going with that thought, but
Sonia Simone (41:58):
Yeah, no, I, it's just, I don't know. It's, it's the thing, and I, I totally feel like it's the theme of your podcast. It is the thing that people don't talk about mm-hmm. and I, I was gonna say, I think women are able to be more open than men. And now that it's come outta my mouth, I'm not sure. I think that's true.
Angie Colee (42:17):
I think in some groups there's definitely the pressure to be a man and be more stoic about it. But in other groups, I know I, I spoke to a friend of mine once who told me that he appreciated me because I was an open vulnerable coach like a lot of female coaches are. But he liked my tomboy side because he felt like a lot of women coaches weren't for him because of, you know, like divine feminine or, or an emphasis on like overly feminine things, which that's not me poo-pooing that. It's just not my flavor. I am definitely punch in the face Kick Assing the. Aha rah. Um, and that
Sonia Simone (42:52):
I,
Angie Colee (42:52):
I've actually had, and I thought at first that I would be working with women, that I would be a woman coach. Yeah. That mentored a lot of women and female identifying folks. Um, and it turns out that a lot of men like coming to me because I will give them that kind of emotional support and that safe space and also a loving Kick Ass in the pants.
Sonia Simone (43:11):
Yeah. I sometimes have been known to say that my client base is women and intelligent men. .
Angie Colee (43:17):
Yes.
Sonia Simone (43:18):
.
Angie Colee (43:19):
Unless like there's intelligent and there's the like willfully ignorant I think are the folks that we're making fun of right now. Willfully ignorance. Uh, there's a big, bold, beautiful world beyond your nose if you care to look for it.
Sonia Simone (43:31):
. Yeah, I am. Boy, there's, you know, when I was a kid, PBS had this show called, um, vegetable Soup, I think it was mm-hmm. . And a little tagline was like, it takes all kinds of vegetables to make a vegetable soup. It was like one of these super, you know, like super liberal cartoons about diversity that completely informed my entire worldview and still does. Um, but honestly that phrase goes through my head like once a week. Like it does take all kinds of vegetables to make a vegetable soup and there's lots of perfectly decent people who I do not work well with and Yep. We can definitely find them somebody who's gonna be a better fit.
Angie Colee (44:10):
Mm-hmm. . And I think that's a great note too for if you're on the beginning end of the spectrum in your business, remember it's okay if they don't like you. What if you don't like them? Have you ever thought about that? Yeah. You're not gonna be for everybody. And, and kind of going out there into the world with this idea of I'm going to, you know, they're gonna like me,
Sonia Simone (44:29):
Right? ,
Angie Colee (44:30):
I just had to resist singing. You're gonna love me, but I'm not gonna belt that right now. , maybe someday with a couple of shots in me or something, but there's just a time and a place and a person to help you get those things done. Uh, an interesting thing came up recently. I've been working on this book for like five years. So I had beta readers read this book finally. It's been years. It's been a work in progress. And I remember one of them checking in. I already knew that she was, she's very devout Christian, but she's very fun loving. She already knew that I swore a lot and she's cool with it. And she goes, man, I was reading this and I know so many people that could use it and they will never read a word of this because you swear. And I said, that's fine, that's okay. That's fine. I mean, I swear a lot and I make no apologies for swearing will respect someone who asks me if I can swear a little bit less or I can tone it down in their presence. Absolutely. That's something that I'm willing to do for somebody. But if somebody comes at me and says, you say too much, I'm gonna be like, you absolutely
Sonia Simone (45:27):
Don't wanna answer that. There's only one answer to that.
Angie Colee (45:29):
You know, and if you're going to, you know, miss the point because it's got one too many f-bombs for your taste, then that's fine. There's somebody else out there that will give it to you in a way that makes sense and resonates with you. That's fine.
Sonia Simone (45:41):
Yeah. And the thing that aggravates me the most about that, if somebody says, like, could you please not say confronted me? Cause I'm super sensitive. It's, it's like you said, it's like, okay, cool, but when people say, well, those other people are not gonna take you seriously because you swear too much mm-hmm. , it's like, you know what, get a life. Yes. Go away. Please go bother somebody else. You know? Mm-hmm. , um, bec because there's so much to that. Tone it down. I mean, and you and I, I can tell we have very similar backgrounds in, you know, the professional environment of just like, tone it down. You know, you don't need to have an opinion about everything. You don't need to say every opinion that you have and you know, you're, you're like standing on the table in meetings saying, could we please do something that makes money for the company? Could we do that? Right. Could we please serve capitalism in this freaking company? Please. And it's like, you need to like work, work on your tone. Mm-hmm. , um, yeah. So I'm, I'm over it. I mean like I don't do that anymore.
Angie Colee (46:46):
I'm over it and that, I mean that ties into the they're not all gonna like you.
Sonia Simone (46:50):
Yeah. I'm not doing, I'm not watching my tone anymore.
Angie Colee (46:53):
No, I'm done. And don't tone police me. Uh, the answer already is off. If you don't like it, it's not for you. Yeah, yeah. It's fine. It'll be somewhere where you agree with the tone, it's fine.
Sonia Simone (47:03):
Like the whole rest of the world, you know? Yeah. Oh, I mean like, I'm a little much like,
Angie Colee (47:08):
How dare you tell me they're not gonna take me seriously. I don't care. I think that's the thing that you're missing here. Why do I care if they take me seriously? You know, who takes me seriously? The people that will go with me to Disney World, get drunk at Trader Sam's and realize I can still get up the next day and help them create a million dollar revenue stream all while swearing the entire way. That can be a giant drunk child who uses too many f-bombs and still make you money. How do you like them apples
Sonia Simone (47:36):
. That is, if that's, if that is not your tagline or at least somewhere on your website, ma'am, I'm gonna be very sad. .
Angie Colee (47:45):
That's another reason I li I love this show. Like I say so many good one-liners and then I forget what I say later. Now it's recorded for posterity,
Sonia Simone (47:51):
. So there we go. I know, I know.
Angie Colee (47:52):
Oh my gosh. I feel like we could rant for like three more hours, but for right now, I'm going to say, tell us where we can find out more about you and your business coaching. Cuz I have a feeling people are gonna wanna work with you. Yeah,
Sonia Simone (48:02):
Right on. I have a couple of places, um, always come find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, I've been on LinkedIn a lot more, a lot more regularly. I think it's actually a really good platform for us business folks. Mm-hmm. , I, I'm easy to find. Um, my site is creative fierce.com. That's a relatively new site and it's just a place where I'm putting some of these strong ideas out into the world. And then if you do wanna explore the coaching, please feel free, offeraccelerator.com. We'll get you to a spot where you can get some details, fill out a form. I'd love to talk to you. Um, everything is very low pressure and low key. And I love, I just love to, I'm kind of nosy honestly. and I love to, I love to see like what are people doing with their, you know, what do they wanna get done so mm-hmm. . Oh that's, um, I love that. Yeah. Those are my places.
Angie Colee (48:56):
Excellent. I'm gonna make sure that they have clickable links in the show notes. I think we have to do a follow up because we need, it seems like we need to rant about some things.
Sonia Simone (49:04):
I would love to, maybe we should use, maybe we should involve more out focal, I dunno. Yeah.
Angie Colee (49:09):
, oh my gosh. The actual bar session of uh, permission to Kick Ass off Kick Ass.
Sonia Simone (49:14):
It's the permission to Kick Ass drinking game. Yeah.
Angie Colee (49:18):
Be amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show. This is a blast to record and I will talk to you soon.
Sonia Simone (49:24):
Thank you. Take care.
Angie Colee (49:28):
That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you could do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go Kick Ass some.