Angie Colee (00:01):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick with Ass me today. Welcome back to the show, Mr. Ross O'Lochlainn. Say hi.
Ross O'Lochlainn (00:26):
Hello Angie, how are we doing today?
Angie Colee (00:28):
I am doing fantastic. Trying to stay warm. There's like an inch of snow on the ground, which you know, Southern Texans are allergic to. So just trying to stay out of the danger zone here in the warmth.
Ross O'Lochlainn (00:38):
Good stuff.
Angie Colee (00:40):
I can see the look on your face because you're in Montreal.
Ross O'Lochlainn (00:43):
Yeah, no, it has been absolutely Baltic here the last week or so. Like I came back from Ireland and it was cold in Ireland. Like winters cold in Ireland. It's also wet, but it's cold. And like it's damp. And like, you get the chills. If you don't get into your, you know, warm whatever clothes you need to wear multiple layers, but you could walk around outside, came back to Canada and Montreal and like it minus 25 Celsius. Like I'm not sure what that is in Fahrenheit, but it is, it is, um, it is not good. <
Angie Colee (01:19):
It is ridiculously fucking cold in in Fahrenheit. That's what it is. It's a technical term.
Ross O'Lochlainn (01:24):
Minus 13. Yeah, really, really cold. I think that's the technical term for it. So it's been like that for the last few weeks. So it's been what I call, stay the hell indoor weather.
Angie Colee (01:34):
So, oh yes. Like speaking of math and conversion. How do you like that seque right there? Ross is the owner of Conversion Engineering. So tell us a little, little bit more about what you do remind us about yourself because you are amazing.
Ross O'Lochlainn (01:47):
Well, thank you very much. Oh, you're welcome. As, as my mother said, flattery, we'll get you everywhere.
Angie Colee (01:53):
Absolutely.
Ross O'Lochlainn (01:54):
So Conversion Engineering. Um, yeah, so Conversion Engineering is the company that, that I run. Uh, we are kind of a marketing consulting and coach, uh, company. Now. Um, prior to that, we were kind of a marketing execution, uh, company where we would've focused pretty much on the same customer, um, in the same space, which is online education entrepreneurs. So, you know, everyone, uh, listening to your podcast, probably very familiar with some sort of online education, whether that's coaching or on online courses or, whatever it is. Um, so yeah, basically we have folks who are in that space, just get more students, get more students and kind of move away from the launch model. A certain there's a very kind of internet and marketing style of selling in that space that a lot of my clients just don't resonate with and we just help them kind of you hit their revenue goals, get the students that they're looking for without basically having to sell their soul down the, uh, down the river. so, um, we've been doing that for, for a while now and, uh, yeah, it's been, it's been great. It's been quite the adventure over the last few years. Um, but looking forward to 2022. Yeah. As we were just talking about could be a big adventure of like learning a whole bunch of new stuff. Um, but getting big wins for clients as well.
Angie Colee (03:10):
Fantastic. Well, and I know like the reason that I was chuckling it, my not so clever puns that people might not realize is the whole Conversion Engineering thing is actually based on the fact that Ross used to be an engineer. Well, I mean, technically you still are before you not, not in job, but actual, uh, you know, yeah. Certifications. Uh, what were an engineer before you came to marketing and I'm interested in that transition, you know, what's spoke to you about marketing. What made you decide to leave a field that you were already in? Let's go.
Ross O'Lochlainn (03:45):
Yeah, so, yeah, so I came from an engineering background and they kind of touched on this briefly in the last, last interview episode we had, which was awesome. Um, but I come from like a long, long line of, of engineers. Like my dad was a engineer slash computer scientist, his dad was like a professor of civil engineering in university, uh, of Galway in Ireland. So he was like a civil engineering professor, um, on, um, on that side, he, my dad's brother is a civil engineer, his three sons, also all did some form of engineering. Wow. Um, and then on my mother's side, my grandfather, there was also, he was a refrigeration engineer. So I come from a, just a lot of engineers in, in, in the family and so when it comes time to picking a profession, or rather I should say, picking what you're gonna study, when you, you go to university, when you're leaving secondary school in Ireland high school, what you'd call it in, in, um, in North America, like you don't have a fucking clue what you're doing. Like you're, what are you 15, 16 when you're picking the subjects that you're gonna be doing in your final exams, that will determine what you're kind of aiming for and yeah. And rely on, you know, parents and, you know, guardians and kind of advisors to school to kind of suggest stuff to you that there were some people I can remember back then that like knew I wanna be a doctor or I wanna be like this thing, but I don't think that's most people. And I, I, I, I laugh now at the time I was really big into downhill mountain biking. Right. I was a passion of mine. Um, and I was kind of in it and I was thinking to myself, yeah, I'm gonna become an engineer and I'm gonna design mountain bikes. And so I got into mechanical engineering. That was what I, I selected in university. Um, and I got good grades, you know, I was good at math. I was good at science engineering just seemed like the right fit. I didn't really get good grades in everything, but I got good grades in what I needed to get in engineering. And before I know what I was off studying engine mechanical engineering at university of Limerick in Ireland, um, later it turns out I discovered that the mountain biking thing was a phase and I wasn't really all that into it. Um, but Hey, you know, you kind of put one foot in the other and you never know where you're gonna kind of end up. Um, and, and yeah. Then I ended up basically working at Intel, which was an amazing company. I got a work placement there as a, kind of a, an engineering, uh, intern did really good grades in my first year at university and got offered an amazing placement. And everyone was like, oh, wow, I'd be so happy to be going to work at Intel. Um, everyone was saying, that's like the best placement you can get as a mechanical engineer. And it's very true. Like Intel is an amazing company. if you wanna be a mechanical engineer, turns out once I got in there, I realized not only do I not wanna be a mechanical engineer, once I got in a kind of, under of what it really was. Um, but really didn't enjoy that kind of multinational giant corporation vibe where you're a worker clocking in with your, with your, um, your, your badge. And, you know, it was so hilarious. I was at home last Christmas and I was going through some old stuff in my, my, my room. And I, I spotted my old Intel badge. I was like, oh my God. Look at that. I used to scan in every day with that. And secretly wish I would die. You know what I mean? I'd been dramatic, but I was just not happy in that sort of, uh, environment. And I came outta that year, just thinking, you know what, I don't know if engineering is for me. And that was my second year of a four year degree. And I barely scraped through the other two years, the third and fourth, just because I was just like, if that's the best, like, what's the point. And I was just kind of drifted, but when you're in that situation where your parents are kind of expecting you to finish university, like you kind of show up, but, you know, looking back, I was barely going to classes, barely pass exams failed one year. I had to repeat it. Oh, um, yeah, that wasn't, that wasn't good news. So by the time I finished that degree, I was just not, not vibing it and didn't know what to do next. And then it was 2008 made a little, a financial crisis kind of, kind of sending CV's out were I wasn't really making an effort. And, um, obviously didn't get any job offers cause I was making a half-ass effort in it. Um, and then I decided why some advice from my parents, why don't to go and do more engineering, but do a masters. And I was like, that sounds like a good idea.
Angie Colee (08:45):
More school!
Ross O'Lochlainn (08:46):
Yes. Yeah. Which was like turned out to be a great idea in the long term, like looking back, it was the right decision at the right time. Um, so I did environmental engineering in a university in Canada and moved there into Canada 2009. It was a two year degree and then ended up kind of in a software company. And that was, that was a kind of a really lucky placement because yes, I was engineering and I did good, great in, you know, the environmental side of things. Um, but my father kind of was a computer programmer right. So I learned about PCs and, you know, dos and programming from a really young age. So I kind of was familiar with how software work. In my mechanical engineering degree, my final year project, I real software. So I kind of knew programming, um, on top of that, cuz I knew programming, I also kind of was familiar with web design. I was like, we kind of grew up around that time of, you know, Microsoft, you know, just bringing everyone online and, you know, Hotmail and Yahoo and like all the.
Angie Colee (09:51):
You've got mail.
Ross O'Lochlainn (09:51):
You've got mail, AOL, instant messenger, you know what I mean?
Angie Colee (09:56):
Back in the day when it was the cool thing to set your status on AOL instant messagener.
Ross O'Lochlainn (10:01):
Yeah, right. Uh, oh you know what I mean? So the like I was, I was familiar with the web and so then I got this placement at this environmental software company, really relatively small software company, no marketing team, but I, at that stage could write, I'd always done a lot of writing growing up, never identified as a writer prior to that. But I had always done some level of writing, had several articles published in like gaming magazines and I've written for the local paper, that sort of thing, but oh wow dude. I was like, yeah, whatever. Like it's just a write a couple of articles, uh, had some web design and um, ended up in the software company that had no marketing department. And then I read The Four Hour Work Week because someone suggested, oh, if you want some more time, like this book can kind of help you figure out how to make more of your time. And then that just opened a whole door where Tim Ferriss kind of explains marketing. So in a way where someone who has never done any, you know, business or marketing or sales related stuff couldn't really understand. And I was like, oh, this is marketing. This is, I, I could do this. This is really, this sounds simple. But he, the way Tim Ferris described it, he described it in a, a way that was very like, as we would revert to it, like direct response marketing is what you'd call it now. But it was very like measured and scientific and testing one version against another. And I'm like, dude, I've been testing and using spreadsheets for, you know, ever like, this sounds like it'd be really up by my alley. And um, and it really spoke to me because I don't know what it is it about for you that marketing speaks to you about, but like it's a really multifaceted kind of, um, uh, profession craft, you know what I mean? There's creative, there's analytics, there's understanding people. There's writing there's visuals. Like it's like if you have some interest in anything there, like you have a home in marketing, right? Oh yeah. Um, and I, I, I found that for me, it just spoke way more to me to have that. Whereas engineering, like it's very, very hyper analytical, um, missing a lot of the people element, which I definitely realize now that I need. And yes, there is some creativity in there. If you are a certain small sliver of engineer that ends up designing stuff, but that's not every engineer. And so, you know, marketing just seems to speak to a lot of other kind of interests I had creatively just personal kind of fulfillments areas. Um, and I went that to totally down a rabbit hole. And then, you know, 10 years later completely shifted careers.
Angie Colee (12:49):
And here we are 10 years later.
Ross O'Lochlainn (12:51):
And here we are. Yeah. Literally more than it was, that was, that was 2010. I read, uh, The Four Hour Work Week. So that was, that was 12 years ago now, which is, which is crazy.
Angie Colee (13:01):
Okay. Yeah. We've been doing this then just about the exact same amount of time. I find it interesting how many parallels cuz this is the first time I've heard your story going that far back. But you know, I remember going to university, my grandmother literally threatened me with a shotgun. If I did not go get an education, she's a tiny woman, but terrifying. So I go to school, not knowing what the hell I wanted major in took some artistic I'm I'm a true creative person. And I knew this growing up, but always fought that instinct in the outside narrative of you'll be a starving artist. You can't be a professional, creative, go do something smart. Be a doctor or lawyer or an engineer. They make money. So when I finally got to the point that I was about to graduate, I focused my major on French and political science. Why? I don't know I'm from south Texas, there aren't a whole lot of French speakers there. I also suck at politics because I'm ridiculously blunt and honest and I don't, I don't do the deal making backstabbing thing. Sorry if you're in politics, that's reductive. But my experience too. So I, you know, graduated with this degree that I know I'm not gonna use. I imagined myself at some point being a foreign service officer, but that just obviously didn't come to light. I floundered for a couple years, did every job under the sun decided more school? That's the answer. I don't know what the hell to do with my life. Let's go back to school. And uh, applied to a couple different master's degrees in writing like in MFW, uh, or master of arts and fine writing, and then got into this one interesting pro called the master of entertainment, industry management, which build itself as a hybrid creative business degree, designed to bridge the gap between the artists and the business people in Hollywood so I'm like, all right, this is interesting. I'll be a screenwriter. I'll be Shonda Rhymes. It's gonna be Angie land instead of Shondaland. Hell yeah, let's go. Did the best of the best interns. I worked with Warner brothers, uh, Turner broadcasting, TNT, TBS, NBC, all of the majors, um, temped for years. And then finally just got to a point where I couldn't sustain life in LA anymore and was like, well, fuck. Now what? Mm like, okay. So plan, plan one was go to school and figure out what I want. I figured out what I wanted. That's not working. Fuck. Uh, happened to remember one day in the depth of my anxiety. I still don't know how that one of my screenwriting class is. Some lady had told me about a book called The Well-Fed Writer, which also happens to be about copywriting. And so I picked that up with 20 bucks I didn't have I read it in an afternoon and was like, that was, it was your Tim Ferris moment for me was with that book where I was like, oh shit, this is marketing. Right. Somebody has to write that brochure that you pick up at somebody's office. Somebody has to write email that you get sent okay. Okay. I think I could do this. And 10 years later after I fell down that rabbit hole here we are talking on a podcast.
Ross O'Lochlainn (16:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing like it is, um, the, the reason I ended up in Canada, um, was cuz I have an aunt who lives here. She's um, she's been in Canada now in Montreal longer than she lived in, in Ireland, but she's, she's a professor of chemistry really distinguished, very well published, but it can also like write like a mofo. You know what I mean? Like she, she will, she, it's hilarious hearing her talk about her, her grad students she's like these people cannot write It drives her bananas and, and I don't think people realize like how dangerous you are and effective you can be if you can, if you can write, you know what I mean? Like it's not a, it's a skill that very few people ever really develop well, and like, I can remember, I would've just written stuff in general. I was a, I was a forum warrior growing up on the internet. Do you know what I mean? Writing posts and whatnot. You just, that's just a way that you can communicate through the written word, but like you'd be formulating posts and they might be three, 400 word posts or whatever, but like you're shaping a thought and making an argument, you know what I mean? And, and then someone comes when the internet comes back at you and pokes a hole in it and you're like, oh, how did that happen? And then like, did I really say that? And then you start, you know, I didn't realize it at the time. But part of the reason that I was such an effective writer was because I was constantly getting myself destroyed online in these discussion forms. You know what I mean? And like, it was a really interesting playground for me that I didnt even realize I was playing in. I was just a motherfucker who liked to argue with other people online. You know what I mean?
Angie Colee (17:40):
Same.
Ross O'Lochlainn (17:41):
Yeah. As in, in the nerdiest of context. So I won't even talk about, it was usually about some video game, um, and some character related stuff, but it was just, it was, it was really interesting then once I discovered The Four Hour Work Week and specifically copywriting and then, you know, um, started to wander into the, a world of copywriter. Like it just dawned at me, I'm like, I think I a writers, you know what I mean? Like is, which is like a weird realization, but looking back, it made so much sense because when I was in my first degree, my mechanical engineering degree, like I would, you know, you, you group projects, group projects are always a really interesting dynamic to understand, oh yeah, humans and yourself. You, you know what I mean? And like, there's always one person who does the line share of the work. And there's always one person who contributes in one dimension, way more than other people. And I was not the guy that was gonna be showing up through the lab and pulling the data and validating that it was correct. But when it came time to write the paper, like, I was like, Hey guys, just gimme the data. I'll, I'll bang it up here because I would look at what they're writing. I'm like, this is, you know, I would look at what they'd written and it would take me forever to just even ask them questions about like, what are you trying to say here? And I was just like, just give it to me. I'll just write the whole thing and, but like, you know, that's a, it was a really interesting skill set that I developed that I didn't realize I had developed um, and yeah, you take writing and an interesting people and then an interest in making some money and like it's a hop, skip, and a jump away to marketing and copywriting, right?
Angie Colee (19:15):
Oh yeah. Well, I was glad you mentioned something that I wrote down. Uh, you talked about developing the skill and I think that's an interesting thing to bring up, be especially in creative industries, you know, we're on more of the creative side of the marketing side of marketing. Well, you you're probably on technical, but copywriters are arguably a little bit more creative on the creative side of marketing. And a lot of people kind of buy into this myth of the creative, like the divine muse. She comes down from the heaven, she shines her light up upon your face, and then you just like bang it out in a fever, uh, and wait for the next flash of brilliance to come long. But not a lot of people talk about developing the skill beyond just the raw talent. And I think that's where a lot of people kind of, especially if they're entering into a field like this, where there's some creativity called for, you know, they rely on their natural talent or they don't learn how to develop the skill. Would you agree with that?
Ross O'Lochlainn (20:10):
Yeah, like I think so. I, I have a lot of strong opinions about this just because I've, I've, I've worked with someone, um, know being in the writer's space and understanding writers and having hired and worked with writers and being totally frustrated by writers. And also I, in the sense that like a lot of people, they, they buy into that story and they, they do not develop the skill to, to actually be able to write consistently or to be able to produce and deliver on time. Yes. And I have a client, um, his name is Mike Monday. He's a music production coach is how he's kind of pigeonholed. But what he really is is he's a master of creativity and the creative process. And he helps music producers who would be suffering from the equivalent scenario in the world of music production, not being able to produce regularly, not releasing enough music, not, you know, basically getting it big enough following, cause you're not relevant cause you're not releasing anything or you're just, if you're someone who has had a little bit of success, you're kinda riding out that, that, you know, you know, those musicians that basically release the same record over and over and over again, because they're afraid to experiment, that's another situation that he kept people break out of, but only leashing their, their creativity and his perspective, which I absolutely share because I've kind of modeled it a lot as I learned from him about music production. Um, is that it, it is a skill, it is a skill that you need to be able to develop creativity and it is a skill of curation. A lot of people think that, oh, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna create this amazing thing. It's just gonna come to me and it's gonna be the one thing. And it's like, no, no, creativity is something completely different. What it is, it's the, is it's the discipline to consistently create every day and the acknowlegement and acceptance that 90% of what you create is gonna be horrible.
Angie Colee (22:13):
Yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (22:13):
But the only purpose of creating all of that stuff is so that you have the materials to select what is actually good and present that as what you were submitting for your creative effort and what a allow, lot of people who are creatives do instead is mentally kind of come up with ideas here and there, but they don't sit down and do the work until the deadline comes and then they pick one thing and try and knock it out real fast. And, and then are frustrated that they're not actually producing good work or they're being told that they're not producing good work um, and yeah, there's different skills, but I personally believe that two primary ones are knocking out ideas and then editing and having the discipline to edit more than once.
Angie Colee (23:00):
Writing is free writing. I can't remember where I heard that, but that's always stuck with me and you know, at least, at least once a year, and I'm doing this right now, at least once a year I read On Writing by Stephen King, who's one of my favorite authors love him or hate him. I don't really care. I love him. I think he's fantastic. And has a really interesting sense of humor and, and way of approaching things. Even when he is high off his gourd. Uh, the fact that he, I mean, many of us would use that, you know, we wouldn't produce anything the way he did in the eighties. He's got entire novels. He doesn't even remember writing cuz he was that messed up. But you know, he, I just got through the part where he talked about the muse is locked in your basement. Like you gotta go down there and like get dirty with this guy and bring him all the materials and like show up day after day after day, it's not an angel descending from the heavens to shine their light. They're down there in the basement hiding and you gotta go down there and, and play in the mud. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you really do.
Ross O'Lochlainn (23:56):
Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. I hadn't heard that. I, I have, uh, On Writing, I would admit I never really got into it. I started to read it everyone recommends that it's amazing. And I was like, reading at a time reading it at a time where like just the momentum of the read didn't take off and I sort of get back to it, but never did. But it's interesting that you said that point very similar to what, uh, Mike shared, which is, um, his belief and a misconception that a lot of music producers, um, is that they're waiting for inspiration to strike, right? Like they're waiting for that moment. They're like, oh, I'm gonna go right now. And he's like, that's not how it works. How it works is that you go, when you do the writing or in his case, writing of music, producing of music to just get anything going. And the inspiration comes from the act of creation. It's only when you start to create that, you're like a, a, a semblance of an idea starts to just like wander out of the first couple of things that you've written and you're like, that's when your, your brain fires and go, oh, that, that could go this direction. And that's when the inspiration happens. But that won't happen until you pump your ass down in the chair and start knocking out the beats or in our case start typing out the words even, it could be anything. It doesn't have to be even in the right direction. Right.
Angie Colee (25:20):
And I think that's, that's the critical distinction for sure. Because I think a lot of people think the discipline is sitting down in the, a chair, lighting the candle, putting on your music. Opening up the document, preparing to write and then doing the dishes and then no, the discipline isn't doing all of that. Pre-writing ritual sitting down in the chair and then putting your fingers on the keys and writing stuff.
Ross O'Lochlainn (25:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
Angie Colee (25:45):
Um, even if it's, I hate this shit, I hate this shit. I've got no good ideas, just like set a timer and write whatever pops into your head for however long you set the timer, 30 minutes hour, whatever. Eventually you're gonna come out of, I'm a piece of shit. I don't have any ideas and find some sort of shiny thread to go follow, but that's I think that's exactly what you're talking about. Like you've gotta create the crap to get to the gold
Ross O'Lochlainn (26:09):
A hundred percent, like one of the things I was telling this story recently, one of the other things that benefited me in my later career that happened to me during my engineering career was around the time that I was, um, um, about to graduate. I had my laptop stolen with my final year thesis on it and I had to, yeah, this is a, like, I think it was like 30, 40,000 words was presenting it to following Monday. I had to submit it to following Monday and it was stolen like on the Thursday. And I had to like, like all the notes, all the data was gone and I had to rewrite the whole thing and I was only able to get like a, a, a day or two extension. It wasn't like a full extension. And when you do that, like when you're in that situation, like hitting the backspace isn't an option. Like you have got to get that thing out fast errors do not matter. And later on in my career, when I started talking, got the writers that like, dude, you, you write really fast. And it was because I think in that moment, I learned to just get the thing out, just write just, and essentially later on, I discovered what I was doing was free writing, right?
Angie Colee (27:15):
Yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (27:16):
A hundred percent. Like, I think what people need to get in the practice of doing is just practicing free writing. I love what you said there, which was like, I hate this shit. I hate this shit. I have no good ideas. I would encourage people to like, if that's what you're thinking, sit down, just write that out. As soon as you start getting into that mode where your fingers are typing your thoughts, you're starting the writing. And then I find getting over that piece of friction is the hard part then you, you can just start directing your brain in whatever direction or ideas are popping up, but it's, it's literally overcoming the motion of having anything come outta your head. And if you do that enough, you do that every day. Like the rest really takes care of itself.
Angie Colee (27:59):
Yeah. It's kinda like climbing a small hill. Like at first it, it looks a little bit intimidating as a, I don't wanna go up there it's work. Oh, that sucks. Yeah. But then you get up there and you realize it wasn't quite as intimidating as it looked. It was an easy little walk. Uh, and you just had to get walking. I, you know, that's, that's the developing of the skill versus the talent. Exactly. Like we said, and I think that applies in all creative situations. So, you know, it's interesting to me that we're talking about skills and talents too, because we, I talk about this a lot with creatives who have this head trash around, I don't know business. I don't get business. I'm not good at math. I don't understand projections or revenue or all these techy terms. How the hell am I gonna start a business? So it's particularly interesting to me that you went from I'm good at math and all of these things to coming into creative. So I know you have a different perspective on these skills and as you've grown, you've had to learn how to move beyond. I am a creative freelancer into starting your own business. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what that journey was like?
Ross O'Lochlainn (29:06):
Yeah. So there's kind of two, two parts that would pull apart. that in kind of two elements. One was the, the, the initial journey to I'm this type of person. And now I wanna become that type of person. And for me, what was interesting was I still remember my parents telling me Ross, you're not a business person. Like you shouldn't, you're not, you're not good at like that sort of stuff. I, you should, you should probably get a job because that's, that's like, and, and like that was, they mightn't have said it directly like that, but that was the message that I was, I was getting. And so that's why I ended up in engineering, which then came back to kick my later on when I was trying to transition out, because the version of the story I told was like, oh, I discovered Tim Ferris. And then it was happily ever after. It was like, no, like there was a period of time there where I had crushing self doubt and tons of invisible scripts slash limiting beliefs around, um, anyone going to like their, my ability to get paid for the work because I wasn't educated or qualified as a marketer now looking back. But what I know about the marketing industry now, and who's in it, and who's the top paid professionals like, no one has any qualifications in marketing, right? Like there's a very, like the, the top folks tend to come in from some other area with some expertise and then their passion for marketing comes in now, there's some folks who are very well educated marketers in the space. Don't get me wrong, but it's like, it's, it's not an area that particularly the copywriting, I think I'm talking more about, it tends to speak to people that were, you know, discovered and go, oh, well, I can do this. And then they just fire down it. Whereas most people who end up getting educated in university about something, very few of them are very passionate about it. I know, example, I went to university, I was not passionate about engineering, like at all. Um, but I did then come in with the per, like the, the, the belief that, you know, well, if you know, particularly cuz I was coming from engineering, right, no, one's gonna hire you in engineering unless you're qualified. That's kind of true, right? No, one's gonna hire you as a doctor unless you're qualified. Like that's true because like you need so much training for it. Right. It's different in the world of marketing. And I had to overcome all those beliefs to even like put myself out there but once I did and I started to build up some evidence and truth and you know, proof that, Hey, I can, I can do this. And then over time, realize I'm actually, I'm actually really good at this. And I really, really, really enjoy it. Then it was about kind of figuring out how do I do it full time and bringing on that identity of being a marketer and a, a copywriter. Right. And that was a gradual shift. But then as you mentioned, there's a whole other shift that then happens at after that, which is okay, well, you know, I know how to write, copy, that's gonna make sales and whatnot. And I had the kind of acumen and training to like analyze numbers. Right. And like do the analysis and find the bottleneck in the marketing system, which is not something that a lot of other copywriters would have have, because that was like my past experience and education coming in to serve me there. Right. Like, um, Kev, Kev, Rogers talks about this, you know, that like your past, your past self is what's going to make you position to be the best version of, you know, your current, your current profession. Right.
Angie Colee (32:45):
I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think there is, especially in copywriting, a lot of the people that I have coached and worked with, but anytime you're making a big switch like this, there's the tendency to think of yourself as a, you know, starting at the beginning, starting at the bottom of the mountain, I'm starting all over again from scratch. What you said just then I thought was genius because you took all of the applicable skills and just kind of slid them over on a parallel path versus going. I start down here. I mean, obviously there was some head trash and things to overcome too, but I had a similar experience in that. I, you know, I had all this screenwriting experience from my master's degree, all of this business experience from the master's degree. And for a long time, I didn't really give those skills that I'd already developed in a different area of my life, the credit that they deserved when making this switch over. But one day it clicked when I wanted to get my first copywriting job. I tried freelancing. I didn have the business skills at that time to support myself free time freelance. So I went in house to get better at copy and then try again. And when, when I got my first copywriting job, I'm looking at their job description and going, well, I've done that only. I did it like this over here. Mm. And I've done that only. I did it like this over here. So I found myself going through all of those internships and all, every time that I had done any kind of writing whatsoever, that's suddenly what I was responsible for in that old job. And that's how I wound up talking myself into my first copywriting job, even though I didn't technically have experience
Ross O'Lochlainn (34:13):
Yeah. Yeah. But that's it right? Like the it's all it's applicable. And reference rather than like direct experience, like be having applicable and reference experience is just as relevant. And if not, um, more valuable in, in some, some scenarios right. Because you know, you are coming in with a completely different perspective, which can be insanely insightful. Um, because if you're on the inside and you learn everything on the inside, you're kind of blind to, you know, you are, you you've got the blinders on that. Like, oh, well this is, this is just how it's done. Right. Um, so yeah, if for me particularly, like I just went in what I would normally do as an engineer, which is, well, let's solve some problems. Where are the problems let's, let's solve the, the problems and what skills do I have to solve the problems? Okay. Well, here's the skills that I've, that I've got. Um, but very quickly, Kevin Rogers, again, mentored to, to both of us I was kind of working with him and he kind of pointed out, yeah, dude, you are, you know, writing copy alone is not just what you should be doing. Like you've got this ability to look at the larger, the larger picture, because again, that's what an engineer does, right? Like you're trained to think about the whole system. What are the parts? Are they all working together? Is it producing the outcome it's supposed to produce? Right. Um, and then I started moving into marketing management and, you know, marketing director CMO. And then eventually like you, you said yourself, every copywriter gets into copywriting to later realize that they don't wanna be a copywriter and they wanna start their own thing. Right now, that's a, that's a, um, absolute frame of it. Not every copywriter, there are some copywriters that are very happy to just keep writing copy, but there's a good portion that are kind of entrepreneurs in disguise. And they see copywriting as this pathway to freedom essentially. And once they kind of learn the copywriting skills and the marketing skills and all that, they then are looking for an opportunity to apply all those skills to themselves because they'd like to be able to make all the money for themselves.
Angie Colee (36:33):
Oh, yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (36:33):
And yeah. And, and Kevin pointed out to me, you know, I think that's the, that's the route that you're actually gonna, gonna go, and then that's a whole other evolution again, because now it's like, okay, well, am I, am I now a business person and an entrepreneur? Or am I a copywriter? Right. And like, the truth is your both kind of thing. But yeah, you, you you've gone on a similar, similar journey. Right.
Angie Colee (37:02):
I had a bit of an identity crisis last year before I started. So now we're a little bit under a year in you.copyAnd I are recording this in January of 2022. I started the podcast in March of 2021. And you know, so December of 2020 is when I left my last copywriting job, I had burnt out on the copy. I wanted to, they, they loved me. They wanted to continue working together. The fact is that I could have stayed there forever and coasted, but that's not my style that leads to not great work. You know, when you kind of phone it in and you don't really care, which leads to not great relationships when you ultimately disappoint people. So it was like, I tell that I'm burning out on this. I don't wanna write for anybody else. I wanna see if I can figure out what my own thing is. Let's go and, you know, doing that in the middle of a breakup and then traveling from place to place and figuring out how to support myself that way was just a whole big adventure that I think, you know, combined in the first six months on the road, a little bit of relationship trauma processing, and also who am I, if I'm not a copywriter.
Ross O'Lochlainn (38:08):
Yeah. It's, it's a, like that whole identity thing is, is a big thing. Like it's funny, I recognize that myself but you see, you see new copywriters coming into the space, learning about it. And then like, it's, it's funny watching someone's Facebook profile, our LinkedIn profile evolve over time.
Angie Colee (38:28):
Yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (38:29):
And eventually, eventually they put the label of direct response copywriter on the things, because it's like a, they're assuming that, that identity and that role like this, this is what I am. I'm finally now a direct response, not one of those agency branding, copywriters, one of those Muppets, right? Like I'm a direct response copywriter. Um, but it's a hundred percent, right? Like it's oftentimes it's because people who are shifting into that copywriting space, like it's a super sub-secret kind of world that no one really knows exists, but once you're in it, it's like, oh my.
Angie Colee (39:05):
Oh yeah, it's weirdly small. Isn't it for how many people there are. Like, I feel like I know almost everybody's name in marketing.
Ross O'Lochlainn (39:13):
Right. A hundred. But particularly you the direct response world, but there's like, there's no, there's no college course about direct response copyright. right. Or there maybe. I don't know, but I didn't certainly see one, no one was recommending that I go and study this in university. So people only really discover it when they're trying to get away from some previous position right. Like it's like, they're looking for a way to basically earn money with skill, the skills that they've got so that they can leave an old thing that they don't want to do anymore. And so anytime you, you have that, like people are essentially shifting their identity.
Angie Colee (39:53):
Yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (39:53):
And that's a, that's a hard thing to do. It's not just about acquiring the skillset. You know what I mean? Like what, oh yeah. You won't perform. If you don't have the confidence in your ability to show up and like do the job, you know?
Angie Colee (40:05):
Well, that's an interesting thing that I wind up coaching people on too. Cause that's okay. We're gonna go deep in the weeds here, but I think you'll appreciate it. There's a once upon a time, our mutual friend, Chris Orzechowski ran an email writing challenge where he was like, okay, here's an example of an email that I want you to write. And I want you to pick a product and practice writing it only. He didn't tell them that the Angie that some people were writing about was me was a real person. So it was interesting being in there, you know, I'm on his team and I help him a lot. And so I was, are helping read some of these email samples and, and help teach these students. Since I run his writing team. And I had such a violent reaction when people made me to be something I was not, and I had to write, I had to write notes to people and be like, so here's the thing I'm not made up. I'm an actual person. And so it, I, I can see how from the outside, you're seeing people talk about Angie and you're kind of like, oh, this is a character. And I can play with the characters. Like, but you know, the same parallel applies to the person on the other end. That's reading it. If you're make, if you're writing a story that makes an assumption about who that reader is, and you run right smack into their identity, they're gonna have a very violent, unhappy reaction with you. Like that is absolutely not true. Now. I fucking hate you. So it was like, not to say that you did anything wrong. There was a minsintrepretation there, but now that you know that I'm a real person. Yeah. Are you, are you going to play with my character? Like that? Probably not. Um, so I dunno, that was an interesting little diversion there, but like in identity is powerful and it's one of those things that has to shift once you start going into business. And it's hard. It's hard.
Ross O'Lochlainn (41:52):
No, you're is, what's interesting is like, I've read a number of books on habits and, and, and all that. Um, I'm not sure if you've read Atomic Habits. It was one of these. Yeah. I dunno when it came out, it's by James Clear. It's one of these books that was, you know, just constantly recommended and was on the radar. And I was like, okay, like, I, I, there's a couple full of habits. I wanna start building that I've been trying to build. And they have not really stuck because as we've talked about before, when you're kind of traveling as a nomad. your habits constantly, it's hard to make them stick when you're constantly changing environments. And after I got back to permanent living permanently living here in Montreal, I was like, okay, let's, let's try this habit thing again. Um, and when you read about habits in a number of different ways, like you hear experts about habits like BJ Fog and a number of others, kind of talk about it as Charles Doing, um, like you could see the patterns of what they're trying to get at. But what I really took away from the atomic habits is that if you wanna make a habit stick, you gotta figure out that behavior and then you gotta figure out the identity that you want to, to create and assume for yourself. So the habit will stick.
Angie Colee (43:02):
Yes.
Ross O'Lochlainn (43:02):
Because if you are trying to, if you are trying to, um, just say, I'm gonna do a behavior every day, it's really easy to like, not do that behavior. But you are making the statement of hypothetically, like you want to be a writer right. If you were saying, no, I am, I am a prolific writer who writes every day and that's the identity that you wanna take on. Then what would a prolific writer do? A prolific writer would write every day, right? Not until you figure out, well, what's the identity that I want to put on and try on and assume, and then work to maintain that you're ever, your behaviors are ever gonna kind of follow through. And once I read that, I was like, that is so true. right. Um, and like, you, you need to be like careful, but also intentional about which identity you're looking to, to work towards. Um, and like use book about like, eventually, like you, you change your identity and you self assign a label that you're a copywriter. And then before you know it like what, I'm a coach now, but what's what, what behaviors do I need to learn as a coach? And now I'm a business owner.
Angie Colee (44:12):
Oh, this is a lesson. I, I feel like I keep learning over and over and over again, like as I, every time I have to shift an identity, I have this kind of like, oh, crap. Having to relearn this skillset. Cuz that just happened to me a few months ago. When I finally admitted to myself, I am a business owner. I've switched from copywriter to business owner. And with that comes that next level set of skills, people management, hiring, figuring out the bigger mission beyond just what I can personally produce and like how can I grow a team to help me produce even more than one person is capable of it's Ooh, it's terrifying. But it's also kind of exhilarating.
Ross O'Lochlainn (44:50):
It is. It is. And we were kind of chatting about that a little before we got onto the, the episode, but it's like, you know, once you kind of move into that business owner identity, like it's it kind of, it, it definitely sticks, but the, like they say like new level, new devil. Right. And like you, you move into that level and then you're like, okay. Oh my God. So I'm now a, I'm admitting. That I'm a business owner. So by doing that, I now have to take ownership of all the things that are in this business that are going terribly. Right? Like it's okay. When you take the identity that I'm a creative freelancer that like, okay, well, yeah. I'm not really gonna have, have a, a, an accounting team or there's no PR comp or our HR department in my, in my company and marketing. Isn't really something that I will do for myself. Like it's okay to get away with that. But once you assume the identity of that, no, I own this business. Like, you're like, oh God, I have to, there's so many areas that you now realize I know nothing about. And I'm horrible at Right. And if I don't take care of it, like no one else will. And that's, that's a, that's a scary transformation to, to go through. But it's also really liberating and exciting, right?
Angie Colee (46:08):
Oh yeah. Words I never thought I'd hear myself utter. I'm excited because I got two potential accountants I could hire. What's who are you? I'm excited about accountants. What?
Ross O'Lochlainn (46:21):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (46:22):
No, no shade to accountants. Accountants are fantastic and wonderful people, but like I had such head trash around. I'm not good at math. I avoid accountants, all of that, jazz that, to be excited about accountants that can help me grow my business is like, who are you?
Ross O'Lochlainn (46:39):
I know. Yeah. But it's exciting. Like it is interesting. Um, I think it was, I might butcher the quote, but I think it was, um, what's his name? Virgin, um,
Angie Colee (46:52):
Uh, Richard Branson.
Ross O'Lochlainn (46:54):
Branson. Yeah. Richard sure. Branson. That's it? I was thinking Russell Branson for a second. I was, it's getting my R's to my D's mixed up. But yeah, Richard Branson, I think he's quote was like, you know, entrepreneurship being a business owner is basically about finding people who are better at stuff than you and convincing them to come join your company. Right. Like, that was the essence of it. Um, kind of ad liming what he was actually saying. But like, that was really, really, really interesting. I think that kind of points to what you are talking about there, which is like, what you are excited about is finding someone who's gonna do a better job than you at the numbers. Yeah. And I can remember when I found my bookkeeper, I was so excited. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And every tax season comes around, I'm just thrilled because I'm like, sweet. So Justin are we done? And he's like, yeah, just send these the accountant. And I CC the accountant and then they do it. And I'm like, amazing sign one form. taxes done. And they it's like, this is, this is the life. You know what I mean?
Angie Colee (47:52):
Hand to someone else that does it better and faster.
Ross O'Lochlainn (47:56):
A hundred, a hundred percent. And that's a really interesting, um, a really interesting shift that a lot of people have to go through great book by Dan Sullivan, Who Not How. If you've not read it, uh, are anyone listening? Hasn't read it. Um, like even if it, even if you're internally on a team, um, you don't necessarily have to be a business owner to um, to, to like leverage the idea of it. Like the basic premises, anytime you have to do something like there's two approaches you can take. One is how do I do this? The other one is who can I get to do this? Right. And like going down the how really interesting, like you do want to go down that route yourself sometimes when you wanna get good on it. Like we talk about like developing the skill, like you wanna learn how to do it. But only because you want to be a who for someone else. Yes, yes. Right. But often times in your life, it's, you're better off going, you know what? It would be a better idea to find out who right now than learning how to do these, this accounting or bookkeeping, you know?
Angie Colee (49:05):
Oh yeah. How, how am I going to help my clients with their email marketing strategy or my coaching students with figuring out their next steps in their business. If I'm trying to also be an accountant, which I am not, like, it's so much more productive and, and beneficial for everyone and create more business by hiring my accountant. And I have more time to serve the people that I actually work with in my own little zone of genius. Oh, I love it.
Ross O'Lochlainn (49:35):
Yeah. A hundred percent.
Angie Colee (49:37):
This has been fantastic. Like we started part one saying we're gonna have to have a part two. Now we're ending part two saying we're gonna have to have a part three. Cause I feel like we're just scratching the surface of all this, but yeah. Well Ross, thank you so much for being on the show, tell us a little bit more about where they can find you on the internet.
Ross O'Lochlainn (49:54):
Amazing. Well, thank you for having me, Angie, always a blast this time. Anytime we talk the, the time just flies by. Um, so yeah, if anyone wants to learn more about me, uh, just get to open everyday book.com uh, take to an opt in page to get a copy of the book open every day, which is a sense to the book I wrote about, uh, you know, how to sell online courses, um, and coaching programs without being so reliant on the, the launch model. Um, you know, basically go there, opt on the email list. That's the best way to kind of stay in touch or learn more about where I'm at, rather than send you to the, the website or whatever. Just go there, sign up, get on the email list. And that's basically, um, that's where you can learn more about me and you can hear my ramblings and my proliferations and all, whatever pontifications I should say, um, proliferating outta my, my email marketing software. Um, but jet that's basically where you can get radio Ross.
Angie Colee (50:48):
Awesome. That's amazing. I'm gonna make sure that they have clickable links in all the show notes and yep. We're gonna have to do a part three. I'll talk to you soon. My friend.
Ross O'Lochlainn (50:57):
Awesome. Cheers, Angie
Angie Colee (51:02):
So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.