Angie Colee (00:02):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. All right. Welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. And I am so excited for this one. I always say I'm so excited for this one, but I'm always excited for this. Welcome to the podcast, my friend, Megan Cahak. The name is spelled differently than it sounds, but I love that about you. Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, Megan?
Megan Cahak (00:38):
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a copywriter. I've been freelancing since 2017. I am an unashamed horse nerd. Um, I have two kids. I'm married to a wonderful firefighter. Um, and we have cats and all things. And I don't know, I just, I just love to have fun. That's like my main thing.
Angie Colee (01:01):
Yeah. Well, I can tell that too, cause we're signed in to zoom and ha ha sorry, listeners. You don't get to see this video, but uh, Megan is signed in under her business name, which is Unbridled Ambition. So I had an inkling that you were a horse nerd before we got on the phone.
Megan Cahak (01:17):
Yes. And I promise that all makes sense. It makes sense.
Angie Colee (01:23):
So we, before we got on the call, we were talking a little bit about your history with freelancing and what inspired you to start a business in the first place. And I can't wait to share this with people. Let's, let's just jump right in.
Megan Cahak (01:34):
Okay. So, um, in 2015, November of 2015, my husband turned 30, um, on the third and later that month he started getting these really weird headaches. His one eye would black out, he didn't know why. Um, and so he went to his ophthalmologist and to get his eyes checked because he's also blind as a bat. Like he had, he was a cute little boy with the Coke bottle glasses. So when he takes his contacts out now he's still that cute kid with the Coke bottle glasses. But so he went in and the doctor was like "You know, your acoustic nerve is," - not your acoustic nerve - "Your optic nerve is very small and, and we don't know why and you need to get an MRI."
Megan Cahak (02:15):
And so after seeing some specialists talking to a lot of people, we found out that he actually had an acoustic neuroma, which is a tumor on the acoustic nerve on his right side. Um, and it comes like attaches the ear to the brain. Like that's what communicates hearing. And, um, it was big. Like it was this big tumor. We didn't know why he had it. It was super rare. He was 30 years old at the time I was 28, Gretchen was 18 months. Um, and I was like, "Oh my God, I'm going to be a widow." Like I thought for sure he was going to die because it was just a really rare tumor to have, but luckily it was not cancerous. So that was a huge win for us.
Angie Colee (02:54):
Yay.
Megan Cahak (02:54):
And then after we found out. Yeah. That was really exciting. Um, we kinda like we began on this journey of finding, uh, a neurologist who was also an expert in acoustic neuromas, which is kind of like finding a needle in the haystack.
Megan Cahak (03:11):
And I became his advocate and I demanded that we find this really great team and we did. We actually ended up at Mayo clinic. He had brain surgery. We made all the prep, we prepped for it legally and mentally and all these things. And he came out the other end and, uh. It took four months for him to recover. I had to help him learn how to balance again. He kind of learned how to walk a little bit.
Angie Colee (03:33):
Wow.
Megan Cahak (03:34):
He knew, but he like, his balance was totally off. And then, um, four months after his brain surgery, he went back to be an airport firefighter.
Angie Colee (03:43):
Wow.
Megan Cahak (03:44):
Then three months after that he was hired full-time as a career firefighter for our local area. And that's what he's been doing ever since. So I'm super proud of him. He's just like, he's been through the ringer and Gretchen and I were there to support him the whole way.
Megan Cahak (03:58):
But going through that, I was like, man, I worked at corporate. I really loved my corporate family, but I just felt like a caged-in animal. Like there's nothing I could do outside of this nine to five. I could not make more money. I couldn't free up my, you know, my calendar. Taking time off was a really big deal. And so, um, I didn't, I didn't have short-term disability for something like this. And so, you know, that was 2016 and by fall of 2016, I was like, "You know what, I'm going to start a business." And he was like, "Okay, what are you gonna do?" And I was like "No idea." Um, and so I knew like I'm a writer, I'm a technical writer by trade. I actually have my degree in it. And so I was like, well, maybe I'll write for people. Like freelancing or something. And, um, I just started connecting with other women who also wanted to start businesses, but didn't know how to communicate what they did. And so I was like, "I'll help you. I'll write it for you." And so I kind of became a communications consultant first and then nobody would like do the work. So I was like, "I'll just do it for you and then put it on there." And then that's like, someone's like, "Oh, you're a copywriter." And I'm like, "That's really cool. That sounds like something I want to do." And so I researched it, I got some help becoming this copywriter that I am. I trans-, I like transferred over my knowledge from technical writing to copywriting and then started taking all these courses and classes and working with other really incredible writers.
Megan Cahak (05:30):
And that brings me to where I am now. So that's how my freelance journey began. It was really, it was out of an emotional, uh, necessity, if anything. Because I just, I just felt like so out of control when Jake was going through all of that, um, medical or health scare that I needed to take control of our life in a different way. But as you and I were talking about with freelancing, once you do it and you're by yourself and you're standing in this wide open space, kind of like envisioned myself in a rolling wheat field in the middle of nowhere. And suddenly I'm like, "Oh, I have to survive out here. So what am I going to do?"
Angie Colee (06:15):
And that's the funny thing. Like, we spend so much time in entrepreneurship and I was taking notes while you were talking. Cause I heard so many good things. Uh, we spent so much time like worrying about what the worst case scenario is. And I find it kind of fascinating that you started with the worst case scenario. Like my, my, the love of my life is in danger and I can't sit by stuck in this day job, pretending like everything is okay and you actually brought up something that's super important. And something that I think is flawed with people that talk about, "Oh, just start your side hustle. Oh, just make more money." You got an 18 month old child, you've got a partner who's going through a serious medical ordeal. The answer is not just find a couple hours in your day and see if you can get your hustle on. I'm like, no, there's no hustle left in a situation like this.
Megan Cahak (07:01):
Yeah. Like I was in survival mode for such a long time. And I've I learned to become comfortable in survival mode. So if, when I'm not in survival mode, I have to like rewire my brain to feel like "This is okay. This is okay. You know."
Angie Colee (07:17):
It's okay to have some downtime. It's okay to relax. I was talking about that with somebody yesterday, who said, "You know, when I get to kind of status quo, I'm hesitant to even go beyond that because it feels good just to have gotten here." And I was like, I totally feel that. So I thought that that was a great point that you made about that, that you're, you know, you've got this nine to five job. Taking time off isn't an option. As many businesses say that they've got their businesses set up to support someone to take off. They really don't for the most part. And dealing with FMLA, Family Medical Leave Act, is a nightmare. If you don't have short-term disability insurance, you're going to be eating that or taking your vacation, which I am a firm believer that vacation time should be earmarked for vacations and not used for sicknesses or illnesses. It's bullshit. Um, and the other interesting thing that you brought up was how you kind of fell into communications consulting. Uh, you said something that I'm kind of laughing at it, but I loved it that like, "They wouldn't listen to what I was saying. So I offered to do it for them." Okay. So all of you that are listening to this - welcome. If you find yourself in a consulting role to business, uh, they will pay you a lot of money and not listen to you at all. And this is something that you either have to make peace with and be like, "Okay, well, I I've taken the money. I have delivered some excellent advice. I really hope that they go and do something with it. And if they don't, I let it go." Or you can take Meghan's tactic and be like, "Nope, I do not let this go. I'm going to do it for you. You need to do this."
Megan Cahak (08:50):
Oh my gosh, I am the queen of never letting things go. This is way it needs to be if you want these things. Um, and for some people it works really well. Other people are like, "Get away from me," you know?
Angie Colee (09:02):
Yup. Well, and I think that kind of tenacity and that kind of determination is really appealing to certain kinds of clients. And this kind of goes back to something I'm fond of saying with my coaching students all the time is like people like working with people they like. So first and foremost, be yourself when you're out there starting a business. If you are an unabashed horse nerd who likes to tell people, "No, this is how it's got to be." That's how you build your business. And you will actually attract the people that really resonate with that.
Megan Cahak (09:31):
Yeah. And I can honestly say for like 95% of my clients, I would have so much fun if we could all sit around a campfire and drink some beer and just chat. Like, those are the types of people. Like if you can't sit down with me and like have a beer chat around a fire, um, be outside, then we probably won't work well together. Because I, and this is maybe something I should work on, but my like boundaries for clients are, we're kind of at a friend level. Like I'm going to tell you what to do and I'm going to do the work and be real professional about it. But I'm also going to share some memes with you. We're going to laugh.
Angie Colee (10:07):
That's my favorite pastime.
Megan Cahak (10:09):
Right. And we're going to have some, we're going to have a ton of fun because. And there's two reasons why I do that. Like for one thing, I love to have fun. Like if it's not fun, what are we even doing here?
Angie Colee (10:20):
Exactly.
Megan Cahak (10:21):
And secondly, it helps me pick up on these subtle, like personality traits that people have that tells me more about who they are as a person. And it allows me to write better copy for them.
Angie Colee (10:35):
That's fantastic.
Megan Cahak (10:36):
Kind of like my secret weapon. I'm like, "We're going to have so much fun and it's going to be amazing."
Angie Colee (10:42):
I love that. That's your approach. And I've said that too. And I don't, you know, you mentioned a boundary issue. I think. I mean, you've probably got, I'm making some assumptions, some good boundaries in place. Cause I imagine that just because you'd hang around a campfire talking beer doesn't mean that you're going to call them and be like, "Everything is falling apart. And I really just need a friend." Right? Like you still have your friend friends for that.
Megan Cahak (11:03):
Never ever I, and I don't want them to call, like, unless something really emergency happens with their business, please don't call me crying about your mother-in-law.
Angie Colee (11:11):
Yeah. And so we still have boundaries in place, but I treat my business the exact same way, which is, you know, all of the people that I work with are people that I would love to grab a beer with, have a meal with hangout, go to a concert. Um, I wound up after, so you and I hung out at the last Copy Chief Live before everything shut down. After that a bunch of us went to this cool show 'cause it was Halloween called Here Come the Mummies and we just hung out.
Megan Cahak (11:35):
I love them!
Angie Colee (11:38):
They're fantastic.
Megan Cahak (11:40):
Oh, they're so good.
Angie Colee (11:41):
Unsolicited plug for Here Come the Mummies. If you want, uh, dirty, dirty jokes in the form of amazing funk songs, that is your band and while dressed as mummies. That's your band.
Megan Cahak (11:50):
Yeah because they're all part of different bands that are like NDA's. So they can't like show who they are. Our kids love them, which I don't know if that makes me a really good parent or a bad one.
Angie Colee (12:00):
I think it makes you an awesome parent.
Megan Cahak (12:02):
They know most of the words of the songs.
Angie Colee (12:04):
So I think, I think Here Come the Mummies is fine. If you take it up to Steel Panther you're probably pushing something.
Megan Cahak (12:11):
Steel Panthers! That blows my mind. I hate. Okay. So my husband, we laughed so hard when we listened to Steel, like Glory Hole was the first one he ever let me listen to and I was like "What in the fuck is this?" It was horrible. And I could not stop watching.
Angie Colee (12:26):
Weenie Ride is still my favorite one since it's such a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piano ballad. Uh. Weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie ride.
Megan Cahak (12:37):
It is so inappropriate and so good.
Angie Colee (12:40):
Oh yeah. You would probably appreciate this. When I went to Columbia a few years ago with a bunch of other copywriters, we'd had two house songs. One was Careless Whisper by George Michael, that lovely sax solo that we all know and love. Um, and the second was Weenie Ride by Steel Panther.
Megan Cahak (12:56):
Oh my God.
Angie Colee (12:58):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass - the podcast with all kinds of musical tangents.
Megan Cahak (13:03):
Good Lord. Don't Google it at work, but look up Glory Hole by Steel Panther. You're welcome.
Angie Colee (13:09):
And definitely watch Here Come the Mummies. Like listen to all of their songs. You will, uh, funkadelic.
Megan Cahak (13:14):
For example, one this year we had on repeat, it was - so Jake also does, does this thing. When he drops off the kids called "The Enter Songs." So they play a song all the way to school and they jam out to it like they're entering a stage.
Angie Colee (13:26):
Nice.
Megan Cahak (13:27):
And for Cameron, it was the Secret Santa from Here Come the Mummies for a very long time. And now it's Hakuna Matata trap mix.
Angie Colee (13:37):
I didn't even know that was a thing.
Megan Cahak (13:41):
Jake is also super fun. Like we're, we're great together because I mean, I think he makes me fun, but maybe I'm giving too much credit.
Angie Colee (13:52):
I'm getting a vibe that you have a certain amount of fun that you bring to this picture. That brings me back to one of the good points that you made earlier is like, if, if I'm not having fun doing this, why would I even do this? Because I see so many people that jump into freelancing and then all they do is, bitch, bitch, bitch complain like "My clients suck. I hate them." Well, why are you working with people that you can't stand working with?
Megan Cahak (14:13):
Right.
Angie Colee (14:13):
And I know that like easier said than done, cause it's really scary to just like fire people that you don't like working with and trust that somebody else is going to come along. But like, I want good working. I want long-term working relationships with these people.
Megan Cahak (14:28):
Right.
Angie Colee (14:29):
And to be able to check in with them like a couple of years, like, "Hey, we haven't spoken in a while. Just thought of you today, wondering how you were doing and hope you're doing well. Bye!"
Megan Cahak (14:37):
For sure. Me too. You know? And I think it's kind of cliche for me to say it, but after going through what Jake and I had kind of like went through together with him being so sick and me supporting him and the family through that time was like, that was miserable. And I never want to feel that way again. And so I do everything in my power to not feel that way, which is kind of funny because I mean, sure. I have like these bouts of anxiety in business because.
Angie Colee (15:05):
As do we all.
Megan Cahak (15:06):
You know what I did the other day? So I was super stressed out with getting my work done. And I was, I got done riding my horse and I was trying to train him with the trailer. Cause he's got anxiety about the trailer and he would not get in. And I just like broke down in tears. I cried in the trailer with my horse, looking at me for like 30 minutes because I was so upset about my life for that moment. And then I was like, "Okay, I'm good now. I'm good"
Angie Colee (15:33):
Sometimes you got to get it out. Sometimes fighting it is what makes it that much worse, like.
Megan Cahak (15:40):
Like my horse was like "What's wrong with you?" They're just dogs. Horses are just giant dogs, you know?
Angie Colee (15:46):
I have the same experience with my cat who, uh, I'm surprised hasn't interrupted the podcast by now. But I think everybody that has been in my world for a certain amount of time is familiar with Stella and her, her attention, whoring antics. I've had breakdowns and like ranting moments and screaming moments that this cat just looks at me like, "What is your problem?"
Megan Cahak (16:09):
"Chill girl."
Angie Colee (16:10):
"Do you need to love me? Here I am to make you feel better.
Megan Cahak (16:14):
"Here, let me rub my butt on your face. That'll make you better." That's what they do. Just like walk by and they're and then it makes you laugh or like "Get outta here." And then the moments like, okay, this helped.
Angie Colee (16:25):
Tension relieved. If only humans solve problems in that way. Would showing you my butt make you feel better right now? Okay.
Megan Cahak (16:32):
Oh, that would be funny if it was the right person, but I don't think that's like socially acceptable.
Angie Colee (16:41):
Yeah. It's very, very highly inappropriate. This is going to be subtitled "The Inappropriate Show," but I'm loving every minute of it.
Megan Cahak (16:49):
Well, it's so good.
Angie Colee (16:52):
Well, you would probably appreciate this too. I joked with, uh, a coach of mine not too long ago, about how I can't wait to get Permission to Kick Ass to such a level that I get to have retreats with people. Cause retreats has long been a dream of mine in terms of my own business development. And she challenged me. She goes, "Okay, what kind of retreat do you want to do?" I was like, "I don't want to do the typical, like tropical islands. We meditate. Everybody goes on a cleanse stuff." No offense to anybody. That's woo woo like that and that's your jam. Cool. Go enjoy that. My style is more like, okay, it's a pandemic, but I still want to hang out with my people. So if we could all just zorb right now, if we could just pack ourselves in plastic bubbles and go run running headlong down a hill, or that's my kind of retreat. Go do something fun. Zip-line through a jungle. Um, you know, those friends that I went to Columbia with, we all went parasailing. We jumped off a mountain.
Megan Cahak (17:48):
That sounds terrifying.
Angie Colee (17:51):
It's terrifying. And then when you get together after the fact that have like a pizza and a beer after you jumped off a mountain, yeah.
Megan Cahak (17:57):
The adrenaline is just like probably through the roof. But also, I mean that, that drops so many good endorphins into your brain.
Angie Colee (18:05):
Absolutely.
Megan Cahak (18:06):
Feeling invincible.
Angie Colee (18:08):
And it's a good reminder too, because like, you know, to go back to what you were talking about with anxiety. So often we get so wrapped up in our world gets like so small and so focused on the issues that we're dealing with right now, which is not a bad thing in and of itself. But like when your world gets so small and contained and you're having trouble seeing around it, I like to do what I call, uh, making my world bigger. And so that's usually when I'll go out and do something like that, that proves to me, uh, okay, I'm feeling like my life is in danger right now with the pressure I'm putting on myself, but I'm not actually in danger.
Megan Cahak (18:42):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (18:42):
Or, you know, I'll go out and I'll do some volunteer work. Pull weeds for church, help on a soup kitchen line, go, I, for awhile, I did, um, calls for a domestic violence hotline, which was, which was really rough. But it helps me to remember to put the challenges that I'm facing in perspective. And that there's a way through. That's not the end of my life.
Angie Colee (19:07):
You're like, um, the way you deal with that part of anxiety is very wholesome. The way that I deal with it is like, I'll find something that I can control and then I'll go do that. Because I just it's like a sense of like, what can I do right now in my world? Like what what's possible, what do I have control over? And then I'll go do it. Whether it's house stuff or talking to people, or I don't know, your yours is very wholesome though.
Angie Colee (19:35):
Well, I mean, and that's not what I do all the time. I'm not. Trust me. I'm not that altruistic, but that's like, that is my go-to when I'm like super stuck in like my problems feel like the end of the world. Okay. Go remind myself that there's bigger things in the world than me. When I, when I'm dealing with like work stress or clients are frustrating me because it happens. Like newsflash, if you're getting in this business, because you think being a freelancer is going to make you happy a hundred percent of the time. Wrong. Like that's not how this works. If you can get to 80-20, where you're happy with your work, like 80% of the time, and you're only bitching and venting and frustrated 20% of the time - you're in the sweet spot. But like every choice has its pros and its cons including freelancing. So like, don't jump into this thinking that you're in happy fun land and there will never be any problems.
Megan Cahak (20:22):
Yeah. Like consequences or like consequence or like feelings of not being happy do not disappear when freedom enters your life. I mean, we were kind of talking about that too, before we jumped on here is, um, everybody. So people, a lot, a big driver for entrepreneurs is "I want freedom. I want to free up my time and money" and all these things. I'm like, "yeah, that's great. But I just want you to know that freedom of time is not a real thing." Unless you like put it in your head that you have to like discuss with yourself what freedom of time means for you personally. Like, it doesn't mean the same for everybody. And sometimes freedom of time is the debilitating because you are suddenly responsible for all this time and you still need to make things work. Like it's crazy how much more I work now that I do work for myself than I ever did before.
Angie Colee (21:18):
Yeah.
Megan Cahak (21:18):
I think to myself, "Good Lord. What did I do?"
Angie Colee (21:21):
Well, it's not like I'm going to start a business. And then, you know, four days of Netflix later, nobody's coming along to write you up for not doing the work. You have to have the, the awareness and the motivation to pick yourself up off the couch and go do the work. And we were talking about managing anxiety and stuff like that. There, there are times where I've had a frustrating moment or I'm overwhelmed. I'm verging on burned out because I had a busy period or something. And I do just want to sit on the couch and watch Netflix. My latest obsession as we're recording it. So we're recording this in March. It's probably, it's going to air in a few months. Um, I just, binge-watched "The Expanse" on Amazon.
Megan Cahak (22:00):
Oh, I don't know that one.
Angie Colee (22:01):
Space drama. It's fantastic. Very, very good show. Um, and I have to get up and kind of hit the reset button sometimes when I'm getting stuck. And so I sat down to watch an episode over lunch, three episodes later. Oh shit. I got stuff to do. So I have a reset routine and I don't know if you have anything like this either, but I'll usually like take a power nap, get up for like 20 minutes so that I don't fully fall asleep. Get up, brush my teeth again, drink a big glass of water. And then it's like, I started the day over again.
Megan Cahak (22:34):
No, no, I don't have that. I think my reset routine is if I can't get in the right mindset to write and I keep getting distracted and I'm sitting at my computer and nothing's coming out, I will go outside barefoot, no matter what the weather is. I'm in Wisconsin. And I did this in the winter.
Angie Colee (22:53):
In the snow?
Megan Cahak (22:54):
I did. Feel great, but it kind of like wakes up my senses and like grounds me and then, um, I'll move my body. So whether it's going to see my horse, he's a great reset button, but he's also uber distracting, um, or I'll work out. And then typically though, by that time I had to go pick up my kids, but it resets me for the next day. That's how it works for me. And sometimes like right now, I'm, I'm in a long-term reset routine. Like my I'm super burnt out. And, um, from a couple months ago, and I don't know if you remember in Accelerator, I talked about this a little bit. I was not charging enough and doing so much work. And so, and then I lost a client, um, for a really dumb reasons. And, um, but it was a blessing in disguise. It always is. And I want people to know that like when you, when something doesn't work out the way you think it should, don't force it because something much better is coming your way. Like, you've just got to make the space for it.
Angie Colee (24:04):
Yeah. One of my friends put it in such a great way. Um, it's not happening. Maybe it's not happening to you. It's happening for you?
Megan Cahak (24:12):
Right.
Angie Colee (24:12):
To like get you to the next step. And I, well, you've been through coaching with me before too. And so, you know that this is one of my rants with the students. Like sometimes you have to create the space for the opportunity to come to you. You kind of have to show the Universe or whatever powers that be, that you're ready for this and have the courage to walk away because nature abhors a vacuum. So like, if you literally create a space, you're inviting something to come in and fill that space. But you know, if you don't give it space and then you're hoping something comes along and then now you've got two things and you're afraid to let go of one in case the other one falls through to like -
Megan Cahak (24:49):
You just can't do that. Can't live that way. But like, so my long-term reset is, um, I got super burnt out and now I'm kind of getting to this point where I've made the space and I am starting to see things come together. Cause you remember, I told you I was super jacked today. Because a really cool opportunity came across my feed and it was for a full-time position. And then I called and I was like, "What about this? What if we made it contract? You'd save so much money? And I could get, you know, the income that's necessary." And she's like, "I really love that idea." So if I hadn't given myself the space or have not, it didn't have an open mind of even looking at full-time positions and kind of pitching my idea. I would've never been able, I would have never seen that. I know I wouldn't have seen it cause wouldn't have been front of mind.
Angie Colee (25:39):
Well, and there's, there's a lot of good stuff in there and I want to unpack it a little bit. So you saw somebody in your feed advertising a full-time role. And I think it was communications. You said like a communications or marketing.
Megan Cahak (25:51):
It was a marketing director.
Angie Colee (25:53):
Ok, marketing management. And so you went to this person and said, "Hey, I saw that you have this role open. This is actually what I specialize in. I propose this kind of deal where I work for you basically, like I worked for you as a freelancer instead of as an employee." And they were like, "yes, yes." And so,
Megan Cahak (26:10):
Oh, she's a small business. So she, they would have to individually buy health benefits for people and that's uber expensive. And then I said, "what if we did contracted?" Because it also lifts some of the, it lists all the responsibility off of her and puts it onto me like to get the job done too. Like, she's not going to ignore me, but she would have one less person to manage basically. Cause I'd come in and as a professional, say, "This is what we're gonna do."
Angie Colee (26:37):
Well, and I think that's great because I think a lot of people would shut themselves down because they've put that role in a box, right? "Oh, that's a job. I can't possibly, I can't apply for that. Cause I don't want a job. Or if I reach out to them and propose that I work for them contract, they're gonna say no." We don't know if they're going to say no until you start the conversation. Sometimes the job listing is exactly what it says. Sometimes it's a lot more flexible than they make it sound. So, uh, and then the third thing is I think a lot of people get stuck in that they get sucked in by marketers like us. You have to have a system, you have to have this prospecting, you have to run cold ads. Here's what you do to get business. Sometimes it could be just as simple as paying attention to what happens across your newsfeed and going, "Oh, that sounds really good. I wonder if she'd be open to working" and reaching out and literally letting it, I love how circular this whole conversation is because letting it be a relationship with somebody cool and seeing if you can help each other. Versus I've got to have this ideal lead magnet in the attraction system coming in. And sometimes it doesn't work, but I got one of my very first clients. I don't think I've actually told this story in a recorded medium before, but some people have heard me say it. One of my first paid clients I got as the aftermath of a date.
Megan Cahak (27:50):
Oh no.
Angie Colee (27:51):
We were on a date. We shut down the bar talking about business. You know, he had this startup that had just gotten funded. I had just started my freelance business. The next day we were talking a little bit and decided, you know, we're not really feeling the romantic vibes, but hell we had a hell of a lot of fun. And he wound up hiring me to write a press release, announcing that his company had just got funded. And so it was like, okay, I certainly didn't go to date with like a pitch deck. And here's why I should be your copywriter. I didn't even know what he did when we sat down for dinner, but like be open to the fact that business opportunities are everywhere. And you know, if you can get comfortable talking with people and talking about what you do, uh, you might find yourself with unexpected sources of business.
Megan Cahak (28:38):
Well, and I think that's a testament to being, um, to really practice your ability to have conversations with people. Because within conversations there's always opportunity. Whether it's with them or someone they know and, and, or an opportunity to make a friend. And so with every really, really exciting job that I've gotten. It's either been through an acquaintance or conversation of me just like reaching out to someone. And I gotta admit, like, I'm pretty ballsy. Like I will reach out to anybody. I've done it with like these millionaires. And I'm like, Oh no, you're really not a good fit kind of thing. But um, some people I'm like, "Hey, I really like your stuff. I just wanted to tell you I'm a big fan." And then it'll come start a conversation. And they'll be like, "Oh, you're a copywriter." Like one of my ongoing clients actually that's how we started working together. Um, I don't know if I can say the name of the company or not, but I can give him a shout out. Dreamers and schemers.
Angie Colee (29:40):
Fantastic.
Megan Cahak (29:40):
Um, they are a fun sock company and that's how I met him. I'm like, "Hey, I really like your stuff." Cause they have hilarious horse boot socks, like for riders. So like riders, don't get a lot of opportunity, especially English riders to express themselves with what they wear, because it's all like a uniform and, you know, classic blah, blah. But we have these hilarious socks that they can wear under their boots. And I have two pairs and one of my pairs is it says, "Send noods" on it. And it's a picture of noodles, the noods, but it's just kind of funny and it's a fun way for them to, um, re you know, express themselves. But anyways, like having those conversations is important. And then like with today with that other opportunity, another horse brand. Surprise! Um, was, you know, I already had a relationship with her because I'm like a bad penny. Like if I like you I'm sticking around and I'm going to keep chatting you up a little bit. And then if you ever hire in the future, I'm like, "Hey." Like there's the meme of Kim K like looking behind the bushes. That's me like, she's hiring. I'm like, "What? Like here I am." So, um,
Angie Colee (30:54):
I'm gonna find a way to put that GIF, Jif, whatever. Don't at me. I don't care. We'll find a way to put that in the show notes so that people know what we're talking about.
Megan Cahak (31:00):
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, my life is just memes.
Angie Colee (31:07):
I speak it as a second language. I have one for just about every situation.
Megan Cahak (31:11):
That's a true gift. And pretty soon the future of copywriting is gifs.
Angie Colee (31:16):
Pretty much. Like if you, if you can find ways to speak in pictorial form - you're a genius. Um, and that's all of this is so great too, because I think we get this impression of like, either business has to be hard. Business has to be a slog, has to be a grind. You have to burn out like you have to pay your dues. Um, and I mean, all of us go through it at a certain point, but it's kind of when you're willing to push back against it and say, no, this doesn't have to be my reality. I'm going to go have fun with this ridiculous sock company.
Megan Cahak (31:45):
Well, yeah. And that's kind of like, so the, the gift of conversation is what helped me get really exciting roles. It also is what helps me write for people. And then if I write in a way that is conversational for a client, that client always makes more money. Does that make sense?
Angie Colee (32:00):
Yeah.
Megan Cahak (32:01):
It's kind of like my big advocate, like be a human and you'll make more money, you know?
Angie Colee (32:07):
That's, Oh, that's my biggest pet peeve when people want to do like the corporate drone thing. And it's probably because I used to buy into that pretty hardcore when I was in my corporate job, trying to be dressed up and stuff like that. It was just totally not who I was. And I think it really stifled a lot of my energy and my creativity. And when I started, you know, we talked offline a little bit about how we met, which was through a community called Copy Chief, um, and shameless plug for Copy Chief, which I love, but that was the community that I joined, where I still tried to be a little bit buttoned down when I was first in there. If you can believe it, I was trying to be professional. This, this copywriter people could respect and admire, but every once in a while, the curtain would come down a little bit and I'd start getting very ranty, very passionate about something. And it wasn't very long before a lot of the coaching students that I wound up having through Copy Chief were like, "Angie Rants, Angie Rants! We need! Please get up on a chair and yell some more!"
Megan Cahak (33:03):
I love when you rant. There's that one group. And we, you know which group, and there's always like a, once in a while, you'll drop in such a good rant. And I'll be like, "yes!" And then I'll like DM you and be like, "This was so good." You know, because man, we need the Angie Rants. They're gold.
Angie Colee (33:24):
And my rants are, you know, if you haven't been subjected to them yet, welcome to the club, sign up for Angie Rants. It's it's going to be amazing, uh, mine are, like positive
Megan Cahak (33:33):
Angie Rants.
Angie Colee (33:37):
Angie Rants, yeah. They're, They're positive. Like I don't rant at you to make you feel like shit. That's never my goal because I don't, I don't think criticizing people in a mean spirit, trying to one up people. Like speaking of Angie Rant here in action. Here we go. Trying to one up people, trying to prove them wrong, trying to be this bad-ass know-it-all that, you know, "You're, you're wrong. I'm right. I'm gonna prove it to you argumentative." Instead of cool, you're having the total opposite effect. You can approach someone with a sense of compassion and be like, "You know what? I understand why you think that way. Here's another perspective to consider. Have you thought about that?"
Megan Cahak (34:17):
Right? Those words, those exact words. I've seen it.
Angie Colee (34:20):
That's my favorite tactic. "Have you considered that? This might also be true."
Megan Cahak (34:24):
Yes, it's so good because not only. So that's the only way that you can really, if you're gonna change, someone's mind, you have to come at 'em with honey. Otherwise, if you come at 'em with this really aggressive, like tone, that's just like, it's like the, the walls will come down. But with honey, you got some honey, you got to sit down and talk about it. And you're like, "Oh yeah, I guess I could see that perspective." Like it's such a good approach.
Angie Colee (34:50):
And I think there's, there's almost a revolution that's happening right now because historically our industry in sales oriented marketing, like very direct, I have a thing, buy it and we make it a persuasive arguments. That effect. There's almost a reckoning that's happening right now within the industry where those aggressive sales tactics, the companies that, you know, are the biggest advocates for that are having to backpedal and recognize that like, okay, maybe pushing our shit on people isn't the approach. Maybe finding the people that really need this and coming from a place of, I give a damn about you. And I want to help is the way to go. And that's what I've been saying all along. So this feels like vindication for me.
Megan Cahak (35:29):
Total vindication. That's, you know, like the emotional piece of it is something that I talk about a lot and I I've been, um, following my own advice and starting to email my list daily.
Angie Colee (35:38):
Yes.
Megan Cahak (35:38):
And I just talked about, um, what makes you a really good copywriter? And it's not that you have like this gift to have like these really witty taglines off the top of your head. And it's not about having, um, punchy, direct sales, this and that. It's about finding a way to emotionally connect with the audience. And when I say emotion, I always think people right away go to like the sympathetic emotion. That's not what I'm talking about. Like emotion can be happy. It can be passion. It can be, um, anger. I mean, whatever. I don't really write angry, but you know what I mean? Having the ability to use emotion in your writing is way more effective than that pushy sales. And that's, that's my approach all the time too. And I've also found like clients, even though they say they want emotional copywriting, they don't really understand it. And it's really, they have a hard time believing it's going to be effective until they see it in play. And they're like, "Oh, okay."
Angie Colee (36:37):
Or they have this mistaken impression of what emotional copy is. Like I did a critique for someone the other day of a sales page that he had. And it had things like, "You have to take advantage of this. It's like printing free money." And I was like, you don't have to take advantage of it. Like, first of all, take advantage. They used words like exploit. And I'm like, okay, so this is -
Megan Cahak (36:55):
Sounds like very, like over the line.
Angie Colee (36:58):
It sounds very aggressive. It sounds very manipulative. It sounds like you are at war with your customers and not actually trying to help them. So it's like just a couple of little language tweaks and this thing could work for you, but I want you to pay attention to the words you're using because I wouldn't get on the phone with somebody like that. Like you and I are talking right now on a zoom call and be like, how can we exploit this recording that we're making right now?
Megan Cahak (37:20):
That would make me uncomfortable.
Angie Colee (37:22):
The whole reason that I'm putting together this show. And it is a massive undertaking to put together a podcast is because I want to help people that listen to it.
Megan Cahak (37:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Angie Colee (37:31):
And if it turns into a business, I'm hoping it turns into a business. That's what I'm working toward. Woohoo. Hell yeah. Zorbing retreats for everybody.
Megan Cahak (37:40):
Bring your beer and the nacho cheese!
Angie Colee (37:45):
And Steel Panther! We'll meet at the Here Come the Mummies concert.
Megan Cahak (37:53):
I love it. No, I think that's really cool. And I, um, with the emotional piece of it, I think that's why, what makes entrepreneurship work too? If you lean into the emotional part of why you're doing something, kind of like circling back all the way to the beginning of why I am here, it's gonna work. It only feels forced when you kind of lose your way. And the same goes with copy. Like if you lose your way of why you're there and what you're trying to do, it feels forced. But when you allow yourself to lean into like helping people or making a difference, or just creating a bond, it just flows so much easier. And it converts better too.
Angie Colee (38:31):
And that's such a great point because, you know, if I could wrap up pretty much everything that we said today, it would be business isn't easy, but it doesn't have to be hard. It can be simple. It doesn't need to be a fight, right? If you're banging your head against the wall, maybe try another path. That might actually. That's my favorite saying like, if you're banging your head against the wall, maybe try opening the door because your forehead is probably not the best way to get through this wall.
Megan Cahak (39:03):
Well, I love that. No, that is really good. And you're right. Business doesn't have to be hard. It's challenging. It can be anxiety provoking. That's why you surround yourself with a community like Copy Chief.
Angie Colee (39:18):
Shameless plug.
Megan Cahak (39:20):
Um, but really, I mean, in all honesty, when I, so I told you before we recorded, my hardest year was 2018 and it was before Copy Chief. And it was my, my son was a couple months old. So Gretchen was older than we had Cameron. Um, and I remember like, just not having any money and I had no clients. And I was in this really dark place of postpartum depression and anxiety, and like these, and I remember staying up all night long, like crunching numbers and trying to figure out how I'm going to do this and that. And that was just like my postpartum anxiety, like was in high gear.
Megan Cahak (39:55):
Um, but I got help for it. I did see a doctor, I got the therapy I needed. And then I started like exploring my copywriting world. And I don't know, by the grace of God, Copy Chief, Kevin popped into my newsfeed. And I was like, what's that? And I bought a ticket without ever listening to a single thing that he said, I didn't know anything about Copy Chief, but I was like, I am going nuts. I told it was expensive. It was a huge investment. My husband, I had not been out of the house yet since having Cameron. So going down to Florida was a big deal for me. On my first plane ride by myself ever. I'm 33. You guys.
Angie Colee (40:41):
Wow.
Megan Cahak (40:43):
Um, I was like this, I felt like this frumpy mom from Wisconsin, that's coming to Copy Chief. And I was just like, "Hey guys, I'm here."
Angie Colee (40:52):
I remember meeting you at that event. I didn't have any inkling that, that was what was going on in your life like at all.
Megan Cahak (40:56):
It was horrible. Uh, but 2018 was my hardest year. And then, um, meeting the community, it just opens so many opportunities. And I remember even having the conversation with Jake, he's like this, "I hope this makes you money." Cause we really were in a bad spot. And it totally did though. In a non-direct way, it was an indirect, like I got all these jobs. I didn't walk away with like thousands and thousands. I walked away with a lot of really great conversations and community and um, meeting people. Like I met you. And then, um, I met Chris, uh, I got to meet Laura Belgray.
Angie Colee (41:36):
She's hilarious.
Megan Cahak (41:37):
Total fan girl over her. I was so excited to meet you. Um, Oh, who else? Oh, who else did I meet? Um, who is Chris's partner in crime with everything? He does a lot of work with her. She does a cheese business. Now I'm having a -
Angie Colee (41:53):
Oh, Abbey Woodcock. Yeah.
Megan Cahak (41:53):
Abbey. Oh my gosh, Abbey, I met Abbey and then Marcella invited me to the Titanides dinner I detested. And she's like, "You should just come." And I was like, "Okay."
Angie Colee (42:03):
Well, and that's the funny thing about, because a lot of people, I think have, if they go to an industry conference, they either go with this idea of, I have to make money. I have to sign a contract, which is don't go. People can smell that shit on you. Oh, come on, don't go on a business card, dropping blip, like come there to make the relationships that Megan and I have been talking about this entire, the episode. The episode is all about connection. I think really to go to a conference, to make a connection, a business will come of it. If you're genuinely connecting with people and talking about what you do with passion and then be open to following the path, like take the next step. Not knowing where if the path is going to veer off to the right somehow. But that's, I mean, I fell into copywriting by accident and every step forward gave me a couple of options and I'd make a choice and take a couple more steps.
Angie Colee (42:54):
And that's, that's how I wound up where I'm at today. So I love that you told that story of going to Copy Chief and you didn't know what to expect. You hadn't been listening. You hadn't, you were new to the world. So you hadn't listened to Kevin yet. Didn't know who to talk to, but met people there that invited you to things. You went to the thing, you took a chance and made more connections there. So like sometimes it's just taking the steps, not knowing how it's going to pan out, but being willing, opening up that space, like we talked about and telling the universe, "Okay. Put something here that I can work with. Thank you, please."
Megan Cahak (43:27):
Yeah. Well, and I felt pretty numb to like the feeling of risk at that point, just because I had such a crazy last couple of years, that bravery, I was, I mean, I'm outgoing, but I'm not always brave. And something that felt risky couple of years ago, it didn't, I was kind of numb to it at that point. So I was like, "It'll be fine." You know, that was my first Uber ride. I've never taken an Uber until I was in Florida by myself.
Angie Colee (43:54):
We actually, we have a very similar story because my first industry event was back in 2012 or 2013. I want to say. So I was pretty new. I'd been in the industry for less than a year at that point. And I had decided that I really wanted to go to a John Carlton action seminar and I didn't have any money for this. There was, there was no room in the budget. There wasn't even credit cards that I could charge this to. There was no way I was gonna make this happen. So before GoFundMe was a thing, I turned to Indiegogo and created this random campaign to raise the money, to go there, which I was ashamed of. Like I hid this for years and years, years in fact that I raised money to go there. And I wasn't this super successful copywriter showing up like, "Well, look at me, I'm fancy." I think I told Kevin and some other people that I had done that once upon a time. And then I found the link, which is still live. If you go stalk it. I wrote $5 haikus for people like that's, that's how much I was like, I will go.
Megan Cahak (44:52):
That's amazing though. That is, that is, I don't think you should be ashamed of that at all. I think that that's awesome.
Angie Colee (44:57):
I'm not anymore, but I that's why I'm so passionate about getting people out of their head and realizing like the shit that you're obsessing about isn't real. It isn't the real story here because when I see it now from the other side of like, somebody wants to work with me, they want me to hire them. If somebody went to that effort and created a campaign and wrote fucking $5 haikus, I dedicated songs at karaoke to people for like 20 bucks or would film them at $20 video of me singing on the phone. Like I did all kinds of goofy stuff. And just by putting myself out there, I not only hit my goal. People were reaching out to me, privately offering to do different projects and stuff like that. And I raised the money and then some to get there and back. I was still broke as shit while I was there. But at least it wasn't putting me in debt.
Megan Cahak (45:41):
Yup.
Angie Colee (45:42):
And later on, like within a couple of weeks, I got a $2,500 project that more than paid back everything, like it was crazy. So sometimes just putting yourself out there and not really knowing how it's going to work is the thing. And then that's how Kevin and I have this joke. Like I met him before and we didn't really know each other back then, but I was like, I was kind of stalking you around the bar at that event. Like, "Oh, Hey, you're at the bar again, look, I happened to be here as well. Fancy meeting you here. Hello!"
Megan Cahak (46:10):
Yeah, I totally stalked him at Copy Chief. I was like crowding around the circles of weaving my way in. And I was like, "Well, hi." And I introduced myself and then I had nothing else to say after that. I'm like, "I'm Megan. And that is it."
Angie Colee (46:22):
Sometimes that's the way it works. Like I said, I joked with him because that was like 2013, 2012 or 2013. And I didn't get involved with his community until like 2015. So like we met once and it was fine. And then it was years later that we actually made the connection to develop the relationship. So sometimes that's the way it goes.
Megan Cahak (46:40):
Introducing yourself to another human is totally normal. And I think that we get it in our heads that we can't approach certain people. It's like, no, you can. I'm pretty sure I remember the, is it the funnels? People, the funnels guys are super uber successful, you know, who was it? Um, well, it doesn't even matter. I totally thought he was somebody else at the event. Then I came up to this millionaire and I called him by the wrong name. And he was like, "I am actually so and so." And I'm like, "Oh, what's up, man." I had no idea who he was until he got up on stage and was like, "We brought in milliions of dollars. We have blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "Oh my God, you're really successful. Good for you." You know?
Angie Colee (47:23):
That's one of the big, you know, because I've worked for some big names myself and I've had a lot of people that are on the newer end of the spectrum. "Oh my God. How do you work for such a big name?" Like no differently than I'd worked for any other name.
Megan Cahak (47:37):
Right.
Angie Colee (47:37):
I mean, they get the same amount of effort from me. The same amount of passion and dedication. A name is just a name. Treat them like people, they'll appreciate you.
Megan Cahak (47:48):
Right. And then it'll just open so many more doors because if they meet somebody cool, that can treat them like people they know that you'll be able to treat their friends like people.
Angie Colee (47:56):
Absolutely. This is so such a good episode. I could keep talking to you forever. I'm going to cut it short now though, and promise that we're going to have to do this again because it's been fantastic. So Megan, tell us a little bit more about where to find you.
Megan Cahak (48:11):
Well, so I'm on Instagram barely, but I am there. You'll see me posting memes in my stories. I am posting in my feed now on. Unbridled Ambition is the name. And then otherwise my website is www - dot unbridled ambition dot com. I'm there. So always, just shoot me a message, say, Hey or whatever. And I'll answer you. I answer everybody's emails.
Angie Colee (48:34):
Hit Megan up. If you need memes, gifs or horse jokes. That is your, your order of the day.
Megan Cahak (48:43):
Yes. Horse facts.
Angie Colee (48:44):
All right. Thanks so much for being on the show, Megan. This is fantastic and I will talk to you soon.
Megan Cahak (48:48):
Yes! It was so much fun.
Angie Colee (48:53):
So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.