Angie Colee (00:01):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my new friend, Katherine Mackenzie Smith say hi.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (00:25):
Hi.
Angie Colee (00:26):
I'm not saying new friend lightly, cuz we literally just realized that we spent 15 minutes before recording. Just like geeking out over the various things that we're seeing in each other's backgrounds. Oh, you have a baby. Oh my God. And I have to say it. I don't know if you want attention called to it, but you're recording with me on your birthday. Today is March 9th. Happy birthday to you.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (00:48):
Thank you so much.
Angie Colee (00:49):
And to my mom who is inspiration behind the show, today's a good day for birthdays. Y'all Pisces. There you go.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (00:55):
Yeah. It like it was meant to be then.
Angie Colee (00:58):
Yes. So tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (01:02):
So I am a business coach and visibility coach for introverts and highly sensitive people who are just trying to cut through the online noise and connect with their people. I clearly have a bit of a knack for it getting to connect with yourself. Um, but I know that it can be really daunting. There's a lot of things to think about. There's a lot of conflicting information out there and a lot of the strategies and things that are being taught by all of the digital marketing gurus really have that more extroverted personality in mind like that is. And you know, there are other things that cisgender white male kind, you know, tip of the iceberg is where so much of advice and those strategies are coming from. And I definitely found when I first started my business, I was trying to follow those. I completely burnt out. I walked away from my business for three years and realized that the only way this would be sustainable would be to actually find a way to do it on my own terms. And so, yeah, that's kind of my life mission. I want introverted, highly sensitive souls who have something important that they wanna share with the world to find a way to do it that supports them and is just sustainable and joyful and fun. Um, outside of the realms of what we are taught, we should be doing in case,
Angie Colee (02:25):
You know, I love that you brought that up because I think first of all, that there are a couple of like erroneous assumptions about introverts extroverts and whatnot. Cause I know we were talking before we started recording about, I just think of myself as an ambivert. There are certain situations where I get energy from being around people like an extrovert. And there are certain situations where energy is taken from me by being around people like in like an introvert. So like I see both sides even though presenting to the public and especially conversations like this, it's like Angie's total extrovert. Angie is not.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (03:00):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (03:01):
Angie knows how to protect her inner energy so that you don't meet the flip side of the coin so that you don't meet my Mr. Hyde, trust me, she's there. And she comes out when the energy is low.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (03:14):
Absolutely. Yeah. There's so many myths. I think around what being an introvert is. And you said it yourself, it's usually just like the actual definition of being an introvert is you get energy from time spent alone. That doesn't mean that you have to hate everyone. It doesn't mean that you can't speak in public or do videos or do any of the things that we maybe assign as more extroverted things. It's actually just about how much time at the other end you need to chill out and re-energize on your own. I always say it's like, you know, you're out in public, you're at an event or a party or something and that switch flicks and it's like, I'm just gotta go home now. And that is, I feel like the time it takes for that to happen is how much you, where you, you are on the introvert extrovert ambiivert spectrum.
Angie Colee (04:03):
Oh yeah. I like that. Thinking of it as a spectrum, that's happened to me before and I might have told this story in the podcast before too, but it used to when I was on a, a big marketing guru's team and we would do these big in-person events, it was long days for the team. We would travel from all over the country. We would start our days at like six, 7:00 AM. We'd be going until midnight, very long days. And at the end of this event, there's always a staff wrap party. And I would show up, spend my hour or two with my colleagues and then like Irish, exit peace out disappear. And one day the COO caught me and she was like, where do you think you're going? And I was like, I need to leave now. And she's like, the party's just getting started. And this is our only time to hang. And I was like, I'm about 30 seconds from going zero to bitch. And I don't want anybody to see that transformation cuz it's not very pretty like that. Angie is very irrational. I very much prefer y'all knowing happy go lucky. Well rested Angie. So I'm just gonna say goodnight. Thank you for having me. It's been a joy bye.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (05:04):
Yes. I, uh, I worked in TV for nearly 10 years, so I'm very familiar with the wrap party and like saying goodbye is not like, that's just something you learn really early on. Don't say goodbye. Cuz that you'll get sucked into like doing shots of the bar and telling a million people that you're leaving. You just like quietly. They used to call me like the smoke bomber. Like I would just smoke bomb. I'd be there one second running around like a crazy person in high heels. And then I would just be gone and people would be texting me and I'd be like, I'm at home in bed. Like I left hours ago.
Angie Colee (05:37):
I'm not gonna lie. The drama of that kind of appeals to me. And now I, I have like smoke bombs in my pocket, even though I know I can't technically disappear, but I can make it very obvious that like I'm leaving now and just throw it down and maybe just walk casually away. Like no don't watch me.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (05:55):
I love that. And I, I kind of feel like there's a massive missed opportunity to do that. At some point in my life,
Angie Colee (06:02):
We're gonna have to get together at one of these events and just like smoke bomb, walk away instead of smoke, bomb disappear. I'm I'm here for the drama. I love it. And the other thing that I wrote down that I really, really loved and lit on was do it on your own terms. Cause I do agree. We get told a lot. This is how it's done. These are the ways that you find success. And it's interesting cuz a few years actually right as things were shutting down for the pandemic, I was invited to be on a panel when somebody else dropped out at the last minute and somebody stood up and asked this panel, okay, how do you find your clients? And literally every I was the last one, everybody before me had a different answer. And so when the mic got past to me, I was like, notice that everybody said something different that's cuz it all works. It's up to you to find which one fits for you, which one feels right? Which one doesn't drain your energy, make you hate your life. I've tried it. I all direct mail. I've tried knocking on doors. I've tried cold calling like every method of prospecting under the sun to find my clients. And I've discovered about myself and I don't know, like we can talk about how you find your clients too. I do best when it's small group in person events where I can talk to somebody just like you and I are talk, oh my God, show me your tattoos. And then, uh, then we like each other so much. We gotta find a way to work together or you're referring me to your friends. I'm referring you to my friends. Like that is how I do my best prospecting. But for you, for anybody that's listening, it might be totally different. And you might hate talking to people in small groups like this. It's totally okay.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely. It it's um, it's a really interesting one and I cause of my TV background, it's so stupid, but only last year, did I realize that my love of creating content and helping people find their way of creating content and repurposing the content that we make and all of those things and using that as a way to find our people using that as a way to share our expertise obviously makes sense like literally after years I looked back and I was like, oh, that makes sense. But that's why I do that. Cuz that is what my entire background is. And people ask me constantly, where should I be putting my energy right now? Where should I be creating content? What format should I be doing? And the reality is is that you could look at every single platform, every single format and find people, even in your niche, who, or in your area, in your industry who are creating success, like even the mainstream broad version of what success looks like on that platform. And you're absolutely right. I a hundred percent agree whether it's finding clients, whether it is creating a community, whether it's making money, whatever the things are, whether it's having a, like a quiet life. Yeah. Which is what my version of success is. It's like my version of success is I wake up when I want to, I pretty much do what I want most of the day. Like almost all day, you know, my, the gentleness of the life and the quietness of the life that I live is allows me to be able to get up at eight 30 in the morning and jump on a podcast for someone like yourself and have a high energy conversation cause of the success of my life being what it, what I've designed it to be the money and all of those things are not necess early markers that massively motivate me. And I know lots of introverts find that too, which can then mean success in business has different challenges to it. But at the end of the day, whatever it is that brings you joy energizes, you helps you to feel good about the work that you're doing. Connect with like-minded people that is where you need to put your energy.
Angie Colee (09:38):
Oh, absolutely. And you said something so freaking brilliant that I just want to circle back and highlight for everybody listening your version of success. If you haven't sat down and thought about your version of success, I'm gonna issue that as an official challenge trademark today. You go sit down, do some journaling, do some free writing, talk to somebody that you trust program your subconscious to bring it to you in a dream, whatever you do to process, there is no judgment here, but think about it because this whole idea that we've been served, especially in the make money online in the entrepreneurship business of like 10 K a month, a hundred K a year. That's not for everybody that might be life changing money. For some people that might be drops in a bucket for others. How do you wanna live? Do you wanna work for six months and take six months off? Do you wanna live a quiet life where you get to sleep in until eight 30, perfectly doable. I've made jokes on the show before, about how, um, when I was staying in Florida, cause I'm in digital nomad. Uh, my friend bought me tickets to Harry Potter world universal studios one day. And so I wound up calling all of my clients that day and being like, so we don't really have anything scheduled for today and I'm gonna be out of office cuz my friend got me, Harry Potter tickets. I just straight up tell them I'm playing hooky. Harry Potter worlds. I'm no butter beer. No we're not working today.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (10:57):
I love that so much. And yeah, I totally agree with you because success like even the word success, what that brings up for us when we hear that word is such a conditioned response to the social construct that we live within. For those of us who live in capitalist societies that looks a certain way. And that usually always has to do with how much money we make. And not even from a profit perspective. Like I hear people who say they had $200,000 launches, but it cost them $190,000 to have that.
Angie Colee (11:31):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (11:31):
But they then use that as a, a diving board of like, look how successful this last launch was. You should come and work with me. I'll help you do the same. And it's like the stories and the, the smoke and mirrors of what that can look like.
Angie Colee (11:47):
Oh yeah.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (11:47):
That at the end of the day is all just kind of a crock of shit. If you don't mind me saying that.
Angie Colee (11:55):
Yes. Tell 'em it like it is. Reality in your face. Yes. I love it. I wrote down social contract when you were talk or construct when you were talking about all of that, because I totally agree with that. I know from the outside the perception of how I live my life, I've actually had people make comments out how, you know, much money I must be making to live the life of a digital nomad. And I'm like, well, first of all, you'd be surprised what you can afford if you don't have a rent payment or a house payment, all of that money is going toward Airbnb rent and all of that other stuff. So like it's, it works out about the same as if I had my own permanent residence. And I was like, and second of all, I've just prioritized where I spend my money. You know, I want to go to Harry Potter world. I want to, I told you right before we started recording, I was planning my next trip to Disneyland with my friends. There's a theme to this podcast here. It's all pop culture all the time. Um,
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (12:45):
Love it.
Angie Colee (12:46):
But you know, we're, and, and I like to eat it fancy restaurants from time to time too. But during the day when I'm just me at the Airbnb with my cat, I'm usually eating sandwiches and totally just fine with that. Like I figured out how to make the money work for me and the lifestyle that I want. And it doesn't mean that I'm independently wealthy. It doesn't mean I don't wanna work toward being independently wealthy cuz yay. But like I'm happy with the life that I've built now, even though it's not, you know, what some people would consider to be wealthy and that's, I think totally fine to rethink your notion of what you can do with and without money.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (13:24):
Hmm, absolutely. Oh my goodness. So much because I just genuinely think, you know, we're like trying to, I, I feel like we are just can have this connection. That makes sense. Just even in the idea that we have to exist within this social framework, even if it goes against so many things that we maybe necessarily believe and I a hundred percent agree with you finding a way to work with that, um, is obviously necessary. But also how do we rebel against that at the same time as well?
Angie Colee (13:57):
I love that you're saying rebel against that. Cause I, I recorded another episode earlier today where we were talking about, so there's no doubting that right now as a tumultuous time, the last couple years have been crazy with the pandemic and now inflation and things are going kind of crazy, but in times of great challenges, there are also great opportunities. And so this person I was recording with earlier today, we were talking about challenging the status quo with what people expect out of an agency, which is what he has. And he is like, I've got part-time asynchronous contractors. We don't have a full-time team. We have a policy of asynchronous. You do this on your time. I don't care. As long as the work gets done by the day headline, uh, we have a policy with the clients that if this doesn't have to be a meeting, it's not going to be a meeting. We can communicate via slack. We can communicate via loom.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (14:47):
Amazing.
Angie Colee (14:48):
I love that there are so many entrepreneurs out there that are thinking, you know, no, this is what sucked about the old business paradigm. I think I would like to redo that now that everything has been shaken up, like
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (14:59):
Yeah, for sure. And I know lots of people who are more introverted have kind of set a precedent that like they never wanna go back into the office and they're gonna find a way to make that work for them. And it's so interesting that you said that because I have sort of been saying in the last probably 12 months that it seems like the people who just want it to go back to the way that it was, are the people who were absolutely thriving and benefiting from the way that that setup was working. And then there's a whole heap of people who have just been trying to squish into that box and are now just like, no, that actually never worked for me. Um, this time has been such a time for many people I think of just self-awareness and taking off some of those masks and actually getting to be who we really are. And then seeing as we go back to normal, what, or, you know, not in normal, but like moving to this post world, um, that, that may look completely different from how it looked two or three years ago.
Angie Colee (16:00):
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. First of all, sweatpants for everybody.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (16:04):
Yes. For sure. I'm all about soft comfy pants as often as possible.
Angie Colee (16:12):
Well, and then the great thing is I wonder how many of us found out how fast we actually are at work? Once people stop dropping by our freaking desk talk all the time, cuz they are avoiding work. Like,
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (16:22):
Yeah
Angie Colee (16:23):
Man, I tell you when I instituted with my own business, the no notifications policy, meaning I turn off popup, push notifications, desktop phone everywhere. I will check this at my leisure. You know that I will respond to you, but I don't need you pinging me and interrupting my thought process. Wow. The amount of work that I can get done in three to four hours, I used to do like 10 to 12 hours at the office.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (16:49):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's I mean the more that we talk, the more that I'm thinking you have so many introverted traits because I am the queen of do not disturb my phone is always on do not disturb. Um, because I just don't want, that is so distracting to my nervous system to have people at me. Oh yeah. And I know I've been talking to a few people about this this week as well, that that can also come back to how do I grow my business? How do I keep showing up online? How do I do all of these things? Because the thought of having more people at me than currently are doesn't feel sustainable to me.
Angie Colee (17:30):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (17:30):
And it's just so much about turn off what you can and how can you put, you know, as someone who never had boundaries until like my early thirties, actually having boundaries in place, communicating the way that you clearly do with your team, actually openly communicating this is what's happening. We're having today off because of this. I will not be contactable for three to four hours. Those are things that help us create that sustainability in our businesses so that we can keep showing up for the things that we really need to do instead of being burnt out by the things that just aren't serving us.
Angie Colee (18:07):
Yes. And it's totally okay to build these boundaries around this. You would probably laugh at this cause like even when I had my day job, at one point, the distractions got to be so much that I asked my boss, can I buy a, a trifold screen and put it at the door of my cube? And he was like, wait, wait, tell me what you're thinking here. I'm like, I want a door to my cube. I want people to stop coming in. And like I'm a writer. And when they knock on the door to my cube, right. When I'm in the middle of trying to capture a thought, it just goes poof. And they don't understand that. Not only have I lost the train of thought, it's gonna take me like an hour to get it back. If I can get it back at all. Because cause like just distractions and stuff like that. Like I am definitely a big fan of building walls around yourself.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (18:59):
I have a door closed policy at my house because my partner is also here most of the day as well. And that's sort of how it works here. It's like if the door is closed, that is deep thinking time, obviously being on a cold time, but deep thinking time. And if it's super important, send me a message. But like we can't have that otherwise. Yeah. I won't get anything done. And for me, I don't know if you find this sometimes too. It can get, it can take so long, especially when you're doing creative work, like writing, it can take long to get into the, the flow.
Angie Colee (19:32):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (19:33):
That as soon as you're pulled out of it, it's like, well I as well give up for today because it's gonna take me another three hours to get back into this.
Angie Colee (19:41):
Yeah. And like trying to get back into the flows, its own special kind of frustration and hell
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (19:46):
Yes.
Angie Colee (19:47):
Of just like, man, I had it. I had it dammit.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (19:51):
Yes.
Angie Colee (19:51):
Oh well and I, you know, just the way that we're talking here, I don't think many people would even realize this. This is the first time that we've met. And, and you've got like two introverts and, and so I really love that. We're challenging a little bit of the notion of introversion, but also, you know, that you can put yourself out there and you can talk to people and you can attract the right kind of attention that makes feel comfortable without having to bend over backwards and make yourself like supremely uncomfortable.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (20:18):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (20:18):
Do you have any like advice to, to how to put yourself out there like that? Cause I know that you reached out to me and that really caught my attention.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (20:25):
Yeah. It's it, that's such a great question and such an important thing because I think we're dealing with lots of different identities within ourselves to start with. And so I'm a huge fan of let's sit with the identities that we hold personally, whether they are ones that are, you know, seen as the, having holding more privilege in society. And those that are more, oppressed identities, I'm a white cis woman. And so for example, my whiteness and my cisness makes me have a certain level of privilege, um, in, in some parts of society and in other parts that can also lead to oppression. And, and so like when we're talking about even things like that, and I'm definitely not an expert on that, I'm a student massively a student, but actually having that awareness of like, what does it mean to be an introvert to me? What does it mean to have, you know, childhood trauma or certain kinds of mental health issues or physical health issues? Like having an awareness of who we are is so important first up.
Angie Colee (21:28):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (21:28):
And I do see this a lot and I do talk to a lot of people about this who are nervous about being online and being in spaces based on I don't, I'm a private person. I don't wanna share what anyone who's listened to this conversation so far will know is that we actually haven't shared anything deeply personal about our lives. We have shared things that are hopefully helpful to people who are listening. And that help us relate to each other. I'm an INFJ. So I have, uh, extroverted energy in terms of how that comes across. But also I know that my being a highly sensitive person and my own form of childhood experience means that I'm kind of a chameleon and that I will adapt to the energy in the room. So you have amazing energy. And so I'm simply matching your energy. Like this is how, I mean, I should tell you this story, the best piece of, uh, critical feedback that I've ever had on any of my content was someone who literally posted, oh, send me an email out one of my YouTube videos and was basically like, you are supposed to be an introvert. You are way too animated and like expressive, you should practice what you preach and be more calm and, and gentle and that sort of thing.
Angie Colee (22:41):
I think you've mistaken me for a cartoon librarian. Would it like what?
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (22:50):
It's such a strange thing of like, okay, that's how you identify that identity. If that's what you personally relate to. That's fine. I'm I literally was, went back to her and I was like, I'm probably not for you then, because that's just not who I am.
Angie Colee (23:03):
Yes. Own it!
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (23:03):
I'm a massive, I'm a massive movie nerd. I am a person who gets excited about things. And I love talking to people about their passions, about their content. I am not gonna do that in a submissive docile way. I'm gonna get excited. And then I'm not gonna talk to anyone for three hours.
Angie Colee (23:23):
Yep.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (23:24):
So it's so much about knowing yourself and creating your business in the frame that you work within, in alignment with that. So often I experienced this myself, like I said, I built a business that I then walked away from because it was based on something that didn't align with me. It didn't support me personally. What I see, lots of people teaching out there is their version of success and their framework that just doesn't think it I've never done a program or a course or read an ebook or any of those things. That's like, think about yourself first and then work out, which of these strategies will work for you. Its always follow my six steps to success and you'll make a hundred K in six months like,
Angie Colee (24:06):
Oh that shit drives me nuts. Like,
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (24:08):
Oh my gosh, I hate it.
Angie Colee (24:10):
Like prescriptive teaching and coaching like presuming first of all, that everybody has like the same circumstances. The same means the same mindset and motivation like already right there. We've got like potential thousands of different accommodations with just those four traits alone. Then you add like socio-economic background, risk aversion. Like there's all kinds of reasons why your six step formula works for these people over here, but not those people over there. And I think one of the best things that happened to me in the course of my coaching career was one of my coaches telling me, I think it was, is in my old day job. I really loved him cuz he was such a fantastic mentor. My boss told me one day when I was teaching one of the younger writers. Okay. Here's how I think you should solve this problem. And he pulled me aside and he was like, okay, so there are hundreds of potential solutions to any problem. And yours is a good one and who's to say theirs couldn't be even better than yours. It might be equal to yours. It might be less than yours, but we're never gonna know if you don't give them a chance to try out their own solution. That's not yours. And I've taken that with me into coaching too. It's like it drives some of my students nuts. They're like, will you just give me an answer? I will not. I will give you more question. That's what I will do.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (25:28):
Cause I'm a coach and that is my job.
Angie Colee (25:30):
Yes. Like cuz I want, I joke with them too. Like baby doll, I'm training you to fire me. That's what I'm doing. I want you to trust yourself to the point that you no longer need Angie, because you've got your own inner voice guiding you. So don't ask me to tell you what to do. I'm gonna say, I don't know. What do you think you should do? What's your gut telling you? Oh, you can't hear your gut right now. All right. Let's figure out how to hear your gut.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (25:54):
Amazing. Amazing. I have adopted this one that is similar to that. Probably not as uh, as friendly is stop trying to give, stop trying to, sorry. Stop trying to give me your power.
Angie Colee (26:08):
Ooh.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (26:08):
Because I think that in the, in the online space, I definitely see it. I'm sure it happens everywhere that there is this, there has been this wave of be the guru position yourself as an expert, you know, put yourself in that, that place where you are, the teacher, you are the educator, you are expert, you know, fake it until you make it all the book, those massive cliches. And as a result of that, that has taught and conditioned us to look to people as they're the ones that have all the answers.
Angie Colee (26:40):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (26:41):
And what I see time and time again, as I have people come to me and they say, oh my last coach or the program I did or whatever told me I had to do this, this and this. And so I did that and it didn't work. And now I'm really mad about it, which is absolutely valid. There are plenty of people being taken advantage of in the world all of the time. But every time I then see them trying to give me their power of just tell me what to do and I'll, I'll blindly follow it. I will literally pull them up in that moment. Mm. Because I feel the same. I want every person who comes into my space to be sovereign in their own energy and their own power. And that means that they don't attach to, exactly like you said, being dependent on me in order to be able to get things done, be accountable, find ways to do things it's so much more about, well, what feels right for you?
Angie Colee (27:34):
Oh yeah.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (27:35):
Why don't you give it a go? You're never gonna know until you try that. If it's gonna work for you or not. And it's so much about having that boundry of there's, there's a lot of creating dependency so that people stay in people's funnels and all of that stuff. And it actually being, you are a person you're an individual person living your own life, creating your own business. It's so much more important that you do what's right for you because I can tell you what I would do. And you might take something from that and go, oh yeah, actually I'll give that a go. But at the end of the day, I can't tell you what to do. And I shouldn't tell you what to do. And even if I did it probably wouldn't work or feel good for you anyway, which doesn't help either of us.
Angie Colee (28:19):
I know I, I, I have used that before in coaching examples with people, I'm like, I mean, well, well I could tell you what Angie would do. And then I'll usually give them a more extreme version and I can watch like the discomfort creep in. And I'll be like, okay. So I did that on purpose because what Angie would do probably feels deeply uncomfortable to you, but feels very comfortable to Angie. Angie laughs and jokes with her clients. Uh, when, to my clients, uh, call, I run his, uh, copy team for his agency and he calls me the one woman bomb squad because I'm the, I'm the one that they call in to keep things from blowing up when stuff's getting a little bit tense, because I know how to joke around with the clients in a way that puts everybody at ease. Even if, sometimes I'm kind of poking them a little and being like, oh, you know that your fault lies here, but it's OK. We still love you. Stop screwing with me, but we love you. Like not everybody can do it Angie's way and not everybody should do it Angie's way because you know, humor is who I am. And I don't think that you can force that just the same way that, you know, you, you can't force you your version of animated introvert to be the bookish librarian, that one person expects, how weird is that? Like
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (29:32):
I know it's, it just shows how, how the perception of things is warped by our own personal lived experience. And we just need to be open to the fact that the way we think things are isn't necessarily the way other people do. And I think if we can move through the world like that, we're so much more open to other perspectives and ideas and innovation and you know, ideation, creativity are some of my highest values and, and the things that I just really admire in other people. And I just don't think I have all the answers I just don't expect to. And I definitely don't expect to be everyone's cup of tea. I just know that I'm not a mass appeal kind of person. And similar to you, like you said earlier about you love those small group situations where you can connect with people in one, on one ways that is a hundred percent my experience as well. The people who come and work with me one on one generally have been around me for a while. I don't necessarily put something out on Instagram and people who've never heard of me before are like, oh, I wanna sign up and work with you immediately. It's just not, that is not my thing. That's okay. I'm totally fine with that.
Angie Colee (30:39):
Oh yeah. I get people that tag me all the time. They're like, I'm going to trafficking conversion or one of the other big conferences. That's like thousands and thousands of people. Are you, are you gonna come or are you gonna be there? Love to hang hell no, I am not going to be there. I'm going to be nowhere near there. Like about the only times that you can get me in a crowd that large is if it's a theme park, a concert or like a comic con Like speaking of introverts, have you been to a comic con people listening to me because like animated, introverts people literally dressing up as animated characters. They're some of the most animated people that you meet. Sometimes there are definitely the quiet ones, but oh man. I know so many great introverts and extroverts. I know so many great people just in general.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (31:25):
I love that.
Angie Colee (31:25):
Oh, I love that. Like stop trying to give me your power. I wrote that down and I underlined it several times.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (31:31):
It's easy to do. And especially for more introverted people because we're affected by the energy of others. That can mean that we sometimes have grown up with dodgy boundaries in terms of like that soft energy field that allows other people like it just allows us to be influenced by other people. So having boundaries and having that self-awareness and actively practicing calling our energy back and our power back to ourselves as a practice are things that we need to learn. I wish that I had learned when I was a kid because
Angie Colee (32:04):
Oh, same,
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (32:05):
You know, so many years of pain and giving away my power and being influenced by people with bigger personalities in terms of just like bigger energy. Oh my goodness. So much pain and heartache could've been, uh, prevented.
Angie Colee (32:18):
I know too. And then just like, I think it, it could even be taken deeper in the fact that, you know, you trying to give me your power, first of all, puts a whole lot of pressure on me to, to get it right. And then if I let you down, like everybody's upset. So there's, there's one layer of it to the desperation to get it right. And to not fail. And to just like, just give me a solution and I'll try it and I'll make it work. Well, maybe it won't. And there might be, I've worked on so many launches and promotions and sales campaigns that have failed for stupid reasons that nobody could have ever predicted. And that's the nature of business that I can't guarantee anything. So like, please don't bring that energy to me and hand exactly like handing out your power so that you can absolve yourself when things go sideways and blame it on me, Uhuh, right back at you friends. Right back at you, you take that power back and you make your own choices and I will be here to cheer you on every step of the way.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (33:19):
Yeah. And also brainstorm, troubleshoot all of those things when it's not working. And that just feels so much more empowering and sovereign on both sides when it works as a co-created collaboration versus I'm an expert, I'm gonna tell you everything to do. Here's my step by step process, you know, on the flip side of that, what I see a lot is here's my step by step process. If you are massively successful, I'm gonna hold you up and, you know, use your massive success as my success and benefit and, and, um, kind of make money off of the back of that. And if you are not successful, that is a failing on your part. And so you can see on both sides, how that could, that narrative can be shifted to, to either take blame or, or take responsibility or place blame based on how it's gonna serve you best in your marketing material. And I'm not here for it at all.
Angie Colee (34:13):
No, no. I'm gonna encourage you. No matter if you're introverted, extroverted purple, black, white, yellow, I don't care. I'm gonna encourage you to, first of all, know, success like we were talking about earlier, what does success look like to you? And know that it may change six months, two weeks, five years, who knows, but know what success looks like toward for you now and work toward that. And then as you're working toward that, you're gonna learn more about yourself that may alter it or may confirm it for you, right? There's that. And then there's adopts this attitude of experimentation because failure is going to happen. I can't.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (34:49):
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Angie Colee (34:51):
Kids are gonna fall down and scrape their knees. Teens are gonna get their hearts broken and you are going to fuck something up in your business. Sorry. Like it's okay.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (35:03):
My best lessons have come from failures. That's how we learn. And it's like, we forget at some point in our lives that the whole, everything we know in our lives has come from all of the mistakes that helped us to get to that point. I don't know why as adults were so against that,
Angie Colee (35:19):
Not to mention that all the best stories come from failures too. Like talk about networking with other entrepreneurs at the bar, after an event or a small group session, we're always talking about, oh my God, let me tell you about the time this campaign went sideways. Nobody loves like sits there with wrapped attention. Like your day was perfect and you got up on time and nothing went wrong. Oh, that's so fascinating. Tell me more. Did you make your bed? Did you iron your underwear? It's fascinating. Like, no. Tell me about all the, the things that you fucked up and make me feel like a human that can actually do these things. Despite the fact I feel like a fuck up.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (35:58):
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. How do we relate to each other? We meet each other on a common ground. That's why I'm always a bit skeptical and no shade at all on influencers and you know, people with huge profiles, but there is a level of disconnection that have happens when you become unrelatable to your community and your audience as well.
Angie Colee (36:23):
Ooh.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (36:23):
And so it is those, those human messy moments that make us connect with each other and empathize and understand each other better.
Angie Colee (36:33):
I think that is one of the better things to come out of pandemic and the way the world is moving now too, is that this idea of how business is done and what professionals look like is, has totally been shattered professionals look like people who haven't showered in five days and are wearing sweatpants on the couch. They're just as professional as the guy in the pressed suit with the slick back here, just as professional, just as valuable. And what makes you feel comfortable and powerful, maybe different from somebody else. But embrace that. Like I went through a protracted sweatpants face. Didn't make me any less professional. Oh, be you. Be you. you is beautiful. You is perfect. You is kind. You is valuable. Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (37:21):
Love it. It also is how you find your people, right?
Angie Colee (37:24):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (37:24):
Because if you're trying to pretend to be something that you're not, you know, I go through a phase like once every 18 months where someone pops up and I have that moment of, oh, my photos should be more professional. I should be more professional my branding should look a certain way. And all of those things. And I so quickly now I used to take a little bit longer to snap back. But these days it's like, no, I'm just never gonna be that person. I'm the curly head, stupid nerdy, you know, person who just gets excited about random things. I'm just not gonna be that. And my people aren't that either. And so why would I, even for a second, think that I need to play that role because all it's gonna mean is I start attracting people who actually I can't help. And that aren't necessarily aligned with who I truly am
Angie Colee (38:11):
And they're energy drains that make you feel like crap.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (38:14):
You're, you are pretending to be something. I worked on a couple of seasons of big brother here in Australia. And I remember even then in my early twenties, having this observation of the people who really thrived in the house, being the ones that just were genuinely who they were the whole time and the ones that absolutely fell apart were the ones that went in with a constructed version of who they, they wanted to present themselves as, and it always fell apart every single time.
Angie Colee (38:44):
That was, that was my whole experience with business too. Because for a long time, I bought into that narrative of like, you need the, the suit, the stylish wardrobe, you need the makeup and the hair. You gotta, you gotta put together, you gotta show them that you care about your looks so that you show them that you care about other things. And like, first of all, BS, like if you care about your looks, that's no shade. Hey, some people like playing dress up and that is perfectly fine. I still like getting my hair done. There's nothing wrong with that. But, um, yeah, just the idea that like, I didn't spend an hour doing my makeup and my hair this morning and I, I'm not here to give you my best work. What?
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (39:18):
Yeah. What, what is the correlation between those two?
Angie Colee (39:21):
What, how does that even work? And so like for years I was going through, like, you can see that I have a little piercing here. We're not gonna share this video anywhere. But like, I, I had people telling me to take that out, cover your tattoos, just, you know, be less you. And then at one event, I can't even remember what happened, but I just remember the reactions of the people around me when I had just enough to drink. I don't recommend that as a social lubricant, but that's what happened to me had just enough to drink where I just like started ranting about something and I let the real Angie out. I could see people literally physically leaning in and being like, who is this? How do I not know this person? Please tell me more. And that's when I started realizing like, oh shit, they like me. Like the real me. The messy me, the one that says fuck, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh,
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (40:21):
A hundred percent, a thousand percent. I could not agree with you more honestly, there there's. And in those moments where you've like maybe got the flashy website and the professional photos and you turn up a certain way to work. And then you are this person in real life When people see that there's this disconnect there, hang on a, say, exactly. Hang on. How, how I don't see this person, how come you don't come across the way you do online? I always in every moment want to be when somebody meets me for the first time after they've known me online for a while to be like, you are exactly what I expected you to be.
Angie Colee (40:56):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (40:58):
That is the highest compliment that someone could give me probably aside from like, oh my God, that was brilliant what you just said, that'd be number one.
Angie Colee (41:06):
That was brilliant.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (41:07):
Yeah, you are exactly what I expected because I don't believe in having a polished online presence that then like my human messiness is gonna like, let me down every single time. Um, my, my tech issues and my not being perfect at things is gonna always let me down. Like, why are we not, why are we not doing that?
Angie Colee (41:28):
No, I read a great book that was, and I'm gonna liken this to dating a little bit, but I read a great book about that lately. That's like, I'm not surprised so many relationships failed when you go out on that first date and you're dressing up in clothes that you don't normally wear. And you're, you're telling your best stories and everything that makes you look like a hundred percent and you're hiding the real you in hopes that you can lure this person in and eventually show them the real you, why not give them a chance to know the real you from the beginning so that you can know right away before you waste any time. Yes. This is my person or wow. You need to go.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (42:04):
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanna bring that full circle back around to what you asked me about earlier that I don't think they actually answered when you said about this idea of like, how do you put yourself out there? How do you, you know, kind of submit a, a request to be on someone's podcast? How do you connect with someone when you're more introverted? And that is something that is deeply uncomfortable. I still feel that way. I still get nervous when I have to film videos. And when I'm, I'm meeting someone for the first time, or I have to go somewhere, haven't been before, there are elements of who I naturally am as a more introverted person that do come up still from time to time, you know, visibility has been a huge healing process for me to be seen and heard and put myself out there and not have so much tied up on the outcome of whether people receive that or engage with that or not, you know, both sides of those can be equally devastating. But when we are actually being who we are, it's so much easier to find the people who are aligned with that.
Angie Colee (43:10):
Yes.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (43:10):
It's so much easier to connect with people when we are being our genuine self, because we are not also trying to hide those parts of us and be engaged with that person. We can just show up fully as who we are as I kind of feel like we both probably have today in just like, oh, you too. So exciting, instant connection, instant way to relate to someone and then be able to have a deeper conversation in a one on one meaningful way, which is like, so introvert, you know, that's how, that's how dream life, right. To have these conversations and be able to do so without worrying about what we're gonna say or freaking out that, oh my gosh, they're gonna see this part of me that is maybe a little bit less human or less professional than I'd like to come across. It's like, I'm not worrying about any of that. I'm literally just talking to you as a human to another human and our shared likeness and relatability of, of things lived experiences and things we love. Like it actually is really easy when you just be who you are.
Angie Colee (44:14):
And I think it's, I've, I've discovered this recently. It's like a recurring theme to you having the courage to just be authentically you, even though it feels scary, you never know who's watching and who else you're giving permission to just by doing that. And I saw that happen in a few events before everything shut down, or like, like I told, I told you before we started recording, I'm a performer. I, I have actually been on stage dressed as the evil queen from snow white singing with a rock band at work events.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (44:44):
Love it. I love it.
Angie Colee (44:45):
This is how a hundred percent me I am. And then I get off stage and I'm really done peopleing and being in club environment. And so I grab my select group of also fairly introverted friends. And we go back to the lounge at the hotel and just chill and speak quietly. Or I can recall at another event, like there was a party with a bonfire that started getting really loud and one of my girlfriends and I looked at each other, like, I kind of wanna read a book. You wanna? Do you wanna go back to the Airbnb can just like read a book and listen to jazz music. We don't need, we don't need music. We can just read. That's fine. Like
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (45:19):
Totally
Angie Colee (45:20):
Like her. She actually said that to me. And I was like, oh my God, I do wanna read a book. We can just.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (45:27):
We wanna be in my pajamas right now.
Angie Colee (45:29):
We can just leave the party and go read a book. So let's please do that. And of course our extroverted friends gave us a ton of grief for being, why didn't you wanna be at the party? Cause I wanted to read a book, leave me alone. Yes. I brought a book to the party. Bye. Gosh, this is an amazing conversation. I think we need to book a part two for now. I'm going to ask you to tell us more about your business and where to find you.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (45:55):
So the best place to find me is probably, oh gosh, there's so many places. Um, my website is Katherine MacKenziesmith.com, which is an awkward spelling cuz it's an M a C K. So that's one way the easiest places probably on Instagram @miss underscore KMS. That is my handle across every platform.
Angie Colee (46:13):
Awesome.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (46:13):
So super easy to find me there. I support introverted, highly sensitive people to create and repurpose their content online, to build businesses that are aligned with their energy. Those are the things that I love. I love deeper, meaningful conversations. I love anything geeky and nerdy, so I can always chat about that. And you'll find that all, all my Instagram as well. And yeah, that's probably the best places to find me. Please come and connect. I, I just love meeting new people who get it and get me.
Angie Colee (46:44):
Awesome. Yes. I'm gonna make sure that they have clickable links in the show notes to all of these things and yes, introverts unites. We don't look like your idea of introverts, but we're here and we don't want it to be loud anymore. Go away.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (46:58):
Yeah. When I think about it, when I think about who I am like in a personification of like a movie reference, just because we've just to bring it full circle there, I think of like the girls from The Craft. Mm that's the kind of, that's what I'm going. I I'm just, it's like we are the weirdos Mister, you know, trying to fit in anywhere. Not trying to pretend to be anything that I'm not just like hanging out at the back of the room, like with my little other weirdos, having deep conversations, that's my jam
Angie Colee (47:30):
That reminded me of one of my favorite lines from this movie called To Wong Fu Thanks for Everything, Julie. Newmar.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (47:35):
I love it.
Angie Colee (47:37):
Approval. Neither desired nor required.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (47:40):
Love it.
Angie Colee (47:41):
Such a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for being on the show, Katherine, and we will talk soon.
Katherine Mackenzie Smith (47:47):
Thanks, Angie. It was great to be here.
Angie Colee (47:53):
So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.