Angie Colee (00:02):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. Today with me is my friend Jody Robertson. Say hi, Jody.
Jody Robertson (00:24):
Hi Jody.
Angie Colee (00:26):
I've been hoping somebody would do that and you just made my day that's that's so great.
Jody Robertson (00:31):
I couldn't stop it.
Angie Colee (00:34):
So tell, tell us a little bit, give us a quick overview of what you do.
Jody Robertson (00:39):
Okay. Um, well I'm a copywriter. You probably have introduced quite a few of those. Um, I spent about 21 years in the military. I was a military pilot, um, and I loved writing. I didn't know, copywriting was a thing. Um, 2011 ish. I decided I can't be in the military forever. I better figure out what I want to do when I grow up. And I got online, I found places like Pat's land, smart paths to passive income, all those things, you know, and I tried a million things and was chasing shiny objects and finally narrowed it down to copywriting. So that's what I have been doing lately.
Angie Colee (01:17):
It's fantastic. And it was funny because you've been through a program that I'm a coach for. Uh, and I love your, your spirit and your enthusiasm. And I think it took me a while to realize that you were a military pilot, which is like this cool, really cool thing. It's so in the realm of cool to me that I can't even fathom it. And so I was so happy when, so we're recording this in April and many of you listening to the podcast know that I travel a while back. I had the great fortune to meet up with Jody when our travel schedules synced up and we had dinner and we just got to talking and then everything Jodie was saying, I was like, "oh my God, this is so funny. This needs to be, could you please come on the podcast?" So I kind of dragged Judy kicking and screaming into this one because we had so much fun at our dinner talking about all of this, but it all started, I think with it, with a joke, you made this really smart analogy at dinner that night about how, uh, clients really like you to be the confident pilots in your business.
Angie Colee (02:21):
Because I thought that was such a clear, awesome analogy. Cause it immediately, immediately had me picturing, like going somewhere for a conference and being on, I dunno, like a Southwest flight and having the pilot come on the air and be like, "Alright guys, uh, well it's about time for landing. Uh, good vibes, appreciated really hope. We're going to do our best, uh, stick with us. Uh, and I hope to see you on the ground." Like that wouldn't really instill any kind of confidence in you whatsoever. No matter how cheerful or optimistic it is. Uh, but I find it so funny. How many people really approach freelance businesses that way? Have you seen that in your experience too? Where, where people are, you know, a little bit timid going into this or like they're deferring to you for leadership in your business?
Jody Robertson (03:11):
I think that's pretty common because, um, you know, a lot of people, when it comes to copywriting, they don't know either what it is or what it can do for them. Or even worse, they've been burned by other people who claim that they're going to make all these super sales for them and all that kind of thing. So you really need to present yourself as like, I mean, I don't want to say expert because there's always something to learn, but you, you need to be the professional and know your stuff and, and that's challenging, you know, especially for new people in the business.
Angie Colee (03:43):
Oh yeah. And especially for new people in the business that, that they hear and kind of take to heart, fake it until you make it. So I think that's where a lot of that posturing and blustering and bravado that you've mentioned, like clients that have been burned had been promised the sun moon and stars by somebody that was like, "yo could make you $10,000, blah, blah, blah. Like you just gotta pay me." And then they, they have a bad experience. The copy doesn't work out the way they want. And to be clear for everybody that's listening. When I talk about copywriting, I talk about sales oriented, writing emails that you get brochures, TV, commercials, stuff that sells something. And I speak to a lot of copywriters cause I know a lot of copywriters, but it's super creative. Um, and to that end, because there's an element of unpredictability, like I'm, I'm an expert. I know what I'm doing when writing, but I still can't guarantee that any particular promo is going to work because there's a bunch of different factors. Like that's enough to make any copywriter feel a little bit nervous. Like, would you agree with that, that coming into it, knowing that our promo wouldn't work out could make you kind of nervous and like that pilot that doesn't know how to land, right?
Jody Robertson (04:59):
Yeah. You know, and I think, um, you know, being in the Air Force, one of our core values was integrity first. And if I don't think something's going to work, I just won't accept the client and I'm never gonna offer 100% solutions. There's so many things that go into an offer, whether it's the type of traffic they're driving or if it's even something someone wants, I can't control so many things. I can only give them the best copy that I can possibly produce. So, you know, it's easy to,
Angie Colee (05:32):
Yeah, go ahead.
Jody Robertson (05:33):
Well, it's easy to, especially when you're, you're on your first calls with clients and you just want to keep talking and you want to make that sale to start saying things that aren't necessarily right. So you want to, you know, so you gotta be careful about that for sure.
Angie Colee (05:47):
Yeah. Saying, saying anything just to kind of land the sale at, you know, what you said was so important and so key too, because especially in the beginning where it's really tempting to take any and all deals and say whatever you have to say to get someone to pay you money, just to prove you can get paid, to write there's something to what Jody said about making sure it's a good fit. And like I produce work that is going to work for this person. And this applies, you know, whether you're writing, whether you're taking photos, uh, somebody that takes headshots for me better understands that I'm going to be like throwing up horns. I'm making this gesture on a video as if I'm going to publish the video, which I'm not ha ha you don't get to see this, but you know, I'm going to be in my head shots, probably making a Gene Simmons Kiss face with the tongue out and the, the rocker horns thrown up.
Angie Colee (06:39):
Uh, and, and so a photographer that specializes in button-down corporate headshot suits, isn't going to work for me and that's fine because they've got plenty of suits that they could go shoot, you know? Um, but I get how, when you're first starting out, it's just like, you know, I, I can help you. I promise I can help you. I can figure it out. Just let me say things. Fit is important, guys. And if you focus on fit and people that you're confident you can help, I think you'll find your business grows a lot faster than if you took anybody's money, who would pay it
Jody Robertson (07:11):
As an instructor in an airplane or just an officer in the military. They teach you even early on and basic training or whatever the answer is. If you don't know something and you don't think you can do that, the answer is, I don't know, I'll find out and get back to you. You know, if someone comes to me and says, I had it the other day, it was someone who wanted Facebook ads and I can write Facebook ads. I've done it, they've converted, but it's not, you know, I specialize in email now and I needed to say, "Look, I, your particular niche, I don't know a lot about, um, I don't really do a lot of Facebook ads right now, but I know people who do let me refer to you to them." You know, you just gotta be honest.
Angie Colee (07:47):
I think, you know, that's, that's a great strategy too. And I want to unpack that a little bit. Cause I think that that's a super smart insight. So first of all, like the answer is, "I don't know." Genius. I mean, it's, there are a lot of frankly doucher, uh, business coaches that will advise you to just like say anything to get the sale and like push, push, push. But "I don't know" is a perfectly valid response. And I think if you follow it up with that, "I don't know, but I can find out", right. I don't know on its own is a little bit of absolving myself of responsibility. "I don't know, but I can find out" is a confidence instiller I think. You know, like the confidence, first of all, to admit that you don't know a thing versus blustering and bravado, uh, and the confidence that, yeah, I'm resourceful enough, I'll figure it out.
Angie Colee (08:42):
And then to follow that up with, you know, I don't know that my expertise is suited for your business. I don't know that I can help you, but I know other people that could potentially help you let me reach out and make a few connections. When I was first starting out, I definitely fell in with the camp that like all copywriters are competitors. So I kept things like really close to the vest. I certainly wouldn't have referred work to anybody cause I was a bitch back then. Uh, but it, it backfired in a really big way, I think, because I didn't share any expertise. So people didn't know what I knew. Uh, I would talk more than I listened. I think which made people feel unheard and feeling heard is really important in the client relationship. Do you, do you agree with that? Totally. Yeah.
Jody Robertson (09:32):
I'd say my interviews with clients are 90% them talking and 10% me talking. Ideally
Angie Colee (09:39):
That's so smart too, because I mean really when you're listening to a client, what they want, the best thing that you could possibly do is listen really well. Ask smart questions. They're going to think you're a genius. If you ask questions that make them think versus trying to tell them what you think they should do. That's my sneaky little strategy tip for the day there. Lead them to where you want them to go by asking them smart questions that you already either know the answers to or would guess, but like let them tell you in their own words. And then at the end of the call, sum up what they told you in their own words and say, "so what I heard on the call was this, what I can help you with is that, uh, if that sounds like a good deal, let's talk." That's I guess like the, the crux of what I'm getting to with all of my rambling and storytelling is, you know, to kind of go back to that first image of the confident pilot. Like people don't necessarily need to know all of the ins and outs or the buttons that are being pushed or anything like that. They just need to know that you're confident that you've got this at the end of the day and not the cocky pushy. I've got this shut up and let me do it. But just that quiet confidence that comes from you, I can figure this out.
Jody Robertson (10:53):
Yeah. And that's really important. And that's kind of hard actually initially for pilots, because when we go through pilot training, it's a very, um, pilot training in the air force is very like you are alone, even though you've got an instructor with you, you were to act like you're alone in the cockpit, right? You're doing everything yourself. You need to have the answers. You have to have that plane memorized. And we still do. Like every airplane I've ever flown I know the numbers, I know the checklist, I know that kind of stuff. But when you move on, most of us move on to crew aircraft. So you have to learn to use all your resources and, and work together as a team. Don't remember the original question.
Angie Colee (11:37):
And that's fine. I don't remember what I said five seconds ago. It's fantastic. Now I want to go into that a little bit more. If you're cool with talking in that direction, just this, the training expectation of you can handle this on your own. Right. And being confident like, pretending, and potentially someday even being alone in the cockpit cockpit, like knowing how to handle yourself that way and also balancing it with a team dynamic. Um, I think that there's a lot of similar applications inside doing business, right? Because as a freelancer, you've gotta be able to figure out a lot of pieces on your own. As a business owner, you've got to be able to collaborate with these other people to create a desirable outcome. It's not just you coming in there throwing your weight around and go and "Listen to me, I'm the expert. Damnit! We're going to fly this plane."
Jody Robertson (12:26):
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, that's great. Just, or just even having mentors or friends to draw on when you need them. So
Angie Colee (12:37):
I think that's really important. So I don't know how much you can tell us about actual military training, because I think that would be fascinating, but like how did you resolve when you're in the cockpit and you're having to pretend to be by yourself, even though, you know, you've kind of got that back up. How, how do you even begin to process that? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot here with this, but I'd love to hear more about that.
Jody Robertson (13:03):
Um, from the beginning, when you go to a crew aircraft, you, uh, you learn a lot of, um, what we call crew crew resource management. So they really start shipping. You study a lot of airplane accidents basically, and all the things that went wrong and all the communication breakdowns, because generally when an airplane, no one wants to hear about this. But when an airplane crashes, generally somebody in the cockpit had the answer and at least early on, especially when they started developing these in the 1970s, through the early eighties and nineties, when they were creating this, this concept of crew resource management, and they found that there was a problem with communication within the cockpit. People didn't want to admit they didn't know something or they, they were task saturated and didn't know it or all these other things. And generally you would find that somebody knew the answer and they were right there.
Jody Robertson (13:52):
So that's, you know, that's why it's so important to have that network of knowledgeable people, because usually they, they can see something that you don't, whether it's an instructor sitting behind you in a seat going, "Hey, Jody, you landed 10 feet right of center line. And here's what I saw happen." And then I can take that information and fix what I did wrong and never do that again. It's like, "Well, Angie, I, I just really messed up this interview with this client. And I think I chart, I, I said, this thing wrong." And you're like, "well, what did you say?" And then you can go, "oh, well, don't do that, this do it this way." And then I learned to do better. You know, it's kind of the same concept.
Angie Colee (14:29):
Yeah. And I think that's a really cool point to make too, because so much of, especially freelancing, like learning how to get good at the craft is happening in your head. Right. You're practicing alone in a room. We're, we're both writers. So like, you know, 80% of my job is sitting alone at the computer, coming up with ideas and then like, and it feels like a good idea at the moment. Or maybe like, you've, you've got a good angle or a good concept, and this is feeling really good in the writing. And then the nerves kick in and you start second guessing yourself and you start editing it a little bit too much and rearranging things. And like you Frankenstein it together with pieces of other things. Cause you're overthinking it. And then you're scared to put it out there because you're not confident on it.
Angie Colee (15:13):
And like, this is how a lot of people could, I could just like in the cockpit could fall into the danger zone of, they're not sharing enough of what's going on, even if they're struggling because they don't, they want to look like they're not struggling. So I mean, I know, and in that kind of on the surface sounds contradictory to what I was saying. Like, nobody wants to hear from a nervous, uh, pilot. There are certain people that should hear from a nervous pilot, probably the people in the tower, but not the people in the passenger part of the plane.
Jody Robertson (15:43):
Right. Well, I mean, there's always ways to talk to each other, even in the cockpit when you don't know something, that doesn't sound like you're terrified because you're usually not. You can go, "Hey, Hey man, this is my plan." Like if I'm the aircraft commander, "this is, this is what's happened. This is my plan. These are the checklists we're going to run. Am I missing something?" And that allows them to go or you start even better. You go, "okay, what would you, what, what do you want, what do you think we should be right now?" Because sometimes when the leader says their plan, everybody go, "okay, let's just go with that. Cause they, they, they couldn't possibly be wrong. They're more experienced than I am, blah, blah, blah." Meanwhile, they may have had a good idea and they totally disregarded because of that. So, you know, there's, there's ways to communicate.
Jody Robertson (16:34):
Like there's ways to show up to a client meeting, like being confident, not faking it, but still being able to be vulnerable and say, "what do you think about this?" Or because I had a client the other day that, you know, I wrote a different version of emails for him. It was kind of a humorous approach to these emails. And he's like, "Look, these people are angry with where they are right now. And if I send them humorous emails, they're just going to be mad." I'm like, okay, I didn't think about that. You know, that's something I probably should have caught. That's something he had told me before. And this was just me kind of going above and beyond and writing some extra emails. I wasn't thinking, I'm like, "oh, I got some extra time today. I'm going to get this. I'm going to over-deliver and give this guy some great stuff." And he's like, "yeah, this, I can't send these to anybody."
Angie Colee (17:22):
You know kind of like you talked about with the instructor sitting behind you and giving you a course correction, like that's invaluable feedback. And it's kind of, it's one of those things, like you said that until you put it out there and you try something and you take a risk, right. Even if it feels scary, you don't know whether it's going to work the way you think it will, you have your suspicions, but it's kind of like just put it out there and see what happens. And you've got that, I think invaluable course correction from your client that, says okay, so here's where they're at. And here's why that won't work. Versus like, to me, there's nothing worse than feedback from the client. That's like, "I like it." Or "I hate it. This won't work." Like I need more details, but that context is perfect. Like these people are in this situation, here's what they're thinking and feeling. And that's why this tone won't work.
Jody Robertson (18:09):
And I think that's also the value of finding good clients too. You know, it's again, one of those challenges when you're new, you want to take, you want to get every client you can. You want to prove that you can do this. You want to, you got to pay your bills too. And I remember early on, um, uh, this was actually when I got click funnel partner certified or whatever it was called back in the day. And this lady came to me and she had this product and I'm like, man, this thing is not going to work, but she didn't know anything. She didn't know how to drive the Facebook ads. She didn't know how to get people to it. But man, she, she knew that this ClickFunnel thing was going to, I mean, Russell's good at selling ClickFunnels.
Angie Colee (18:47):
And this is, this is definitely not a knock on ClickFunnels, but I call those lotto ticket clients. The people that have, they've got it fixated in their minds that this one thing is going to save your business. If only we can do it. Right. And that's almost like, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. That's a warning sign. If I could impart to anybody listening today, if you've got a client that comes to you and says, "I need this to work, I'm spending the rent money on this." Like they're pinning all of their hopes on you. Uh, if, and when it fails, which it's likely to do because they're running their business like a lotto ticket, they're also going to pin all of that on you and try to make you feel like crap. So, I mean, even if they're willing to pay you, like, I don't know, five grand and you're like, "hell yeah, this is fantastic. Yeah. Made the big time." If they're going to immediately like issue a charge back because you didn't pay off the way that they thought you would. Like, even if you were really upfront about expectations and "No, I can't guarantee anything like that." They could still have it in their minds that like "I'm betting it all on this person. And so they better win big." So you just have to listen for that kind of language. Like, "I need this, I need this."
Jody Robertson (19:56):
Yeah. And the thing about those clients are they're never going to be able to give you the feedback you need to succeed. You know, that's the difference between the two types of clients, the one guy he's a, he, we talked for an hour and a half and he knew everything about his market. And I were writing the copy was easy because he, he gave me everything, you know, versus this lady who just I've got this product and it's going to be awesome. Show me, show me how to do everything. You know?
Angie Colee (20:24):
And I mean, to a certain extent, you know, this, the confident pilot threat is going to keep reappearing. And what I'm saying, like, I think there's a common misconception, especially among the newer writers that I've coached, that people that hire writers know what they're doing. And so like, they'll come to the table knowing what appropriate budgets are, what the assignments are, what they need. And they will say, "Hey, Jodi, I need five emails, uh, done by, you know, two weeks from now, can you do that? My budget is X." It never works out that way. Often they're so busy in their own business, putting out fires that they're just like, "I need a promotion. The target launch date is this here's what's going on help." And like, they're counting on you to land that plane and be like, "All right. So what I'm hearing is X, what I think we could do is Y how do you feel about, does that sound about right? All right. Let's talk about how we get that done and what next steps are." And that's how you competently lead them through, without any of the BS or the bluster. Um, or like, I like to call it the dick swinging. Please don't do that in the course of doing business. I don't think it's good business. Maybe it works for some people, but I think it's a big turnoff. You know, to, to circle back to what we were talking about with, you know, the client that was super vague versus the clients that actually knew how to help you get better at helping him. I think this is a good lesson for business owners in general, because eventually you're going to need to hire someone, whether it's for your business or for your house or something like that. And so getting good at giving feedback is a skill to work on that is going to make people adore you.
Angie Colee (22:09):
It's hard to give people feedback without being mean without crushing their souls, um, without, you know, being vague and like too. You don't want to crush their souls so you're a little bit too nice so, they don't really get the point. And then you're frustrated the next time they turned something over because they didn't get what you were saying. Like giving feedback and telling people like this "Okay. So this one isn't going to work for me because of explicit reason A, explicit reason B what I'd like to see is explicit thing C, explicit thing D. Do you think you could do that?" I mean, I just gave very blunt, very direct hypothetical feedback there, but whenever I use that strategy and to be clear, that is a strategy that is a skill that I've developed over time. I've never had somebody be like, "You're so mean! I can't work with you."
Jody Robertson (23:01):
Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely an art to giving feedback. I mean, that's kind of your job as an instructor pilot, right? To give that in a non soul crushing way, which in the military, you know, not everybody knows how to do. Yeah. You gotta really, uh, toughen up pretty quick. We call it the shit sandwich. Have you heard that term?
Angie Colee (23:21):
I think the family related version of, or the family friendly version of it is like the compliment sandwich, but I hear the shit sandwich, too.
Jody Robertson (23:27):
Yes. I know. Am I okay cussing on this program?
Angie Colee (23:31):
It's called Permission to Kick Ass. We can say whatever the hell we want to.
Jody Robertson (23:34):
So, uh, yeah, they, they compliment, you know, you did this good, you did all this wrong. You did this good. That's, that's pretty much what we stick to.
Angie Colee (23:44):
And that's, you know, like this is, I'm just going to keep going back to this because I think it's applicable. Whether, you know, you're telling this to subordinates because you've grown your business to a certain level and you need to give them feedback to help them grow. Whether you're helping somebody paint your house. And you're like, uh, this is not up to my expectations. I paid money. And here's what I expect. Uh, please do a better job. Um, and it's also going to help you in managing clients, talking to clients who are paying you because they are paying you for your expertise. So I know that one thing, some of the copywriters that I've coached struggle with is pushing back against the client when something that the client has asked for doesn't feel really good. And so I say, you know, you've heard me say this.
Angie Colee (24:28):
It's all good data, ask more questions and validate whether, what you're assuming, what you're thinking is true. So if somebody comes up to me and says, I'm thinking of running this campaign, like, I'll give a, let's see how much I can anonymize this so that I'm not being mean toward people that I actually know. If somebody says that I want to run a TV commercial versus running an email campaign to make sales for this product. And I would come to them and say, "Hey, I hear you. TV commercials are really exciting. And it's like, I'm not going to lie. It's the coolest thing on earth to be sitting there and like, see your ad, come on TV and be like, oh, that's cool. That's me, it's on TV. Um, in terms of an investment and how it's going to pay off for you. I don't know that that's necessarily the best strategy for you because you could pay, you know, a lot less in terms of investment on email and sending that out and get a lot higher returns, a lot quicker.
Angie Colee (25:24):
You can invest a lot more upfront and then there's going to be production and there's going to be airtime. And all of that lag associated with it. You could wind up making the same amount in sales, but I know which one is going to pay off quicker and be much more likely. I would highly recommend that we stick with email versus the TV commercial. However, like I said, TV commercials are really cool. If you're really married to that idea, I'm willing to help. However, I can very strongly going to recommend that we go with email, but eager to hear your thoughts." And like that sample situation that I just pulled out of my behind that's loosely based on it on a real client interaction, um, where they wanted to invest in some, some advertisements that I really didn't think were going to help them grow their business. You know, you have to respect the client at the end of the day. If they have thoughts and ideas, you can't just come in there and be like, "your ideas are dumb. Listen to me, I'm the expert." That's not how you build relationships, but there's like a way to kind of talk them off the ledge a little bit and get them to see a different perspective and then still give them the agency to make their own decisions.
Jody Robertson (26:34):
Yeah. Sounds kind of like what Kevin Rogers says, being the adult in the room.
Angie Colee (26:41):
It's hard. I mean like, well, you're seeing me in my, my usual Disney hoodie here, uh, even, I don't want to be the adult in the room sometimes, even though I'm pretty good at it. But again, that's a, that's a learned skill. Yeah.
Jody Robertson (26:56):
Your business is going to go a lot better if you are.
Angie Colee (26:58):
Clear, communicative almost over-communicating I would err on that side versus under communicating.
Jody Robertson (27:07):
Yeah, I know, Angie, but I'm an introvert and I did this whole freelancing thing. So I could just write and never talk to anybody.
Angie Colee (27:15):
Oh, I hear that a lot from writers too, especially. Oh gosh. Um, th the great writers Achilles heel is that because we are skilled with words, we think that we have been a hundred percent clear in the written word, and there's no way that the client could have mistaken what I meant in that email. Um, guys, I hate to dash your dreams, even if you are the world's most talented writers, uh, you don't, you never know what's going on in the client's mind in the client's life. And there's like a hundred different ways that they could misinterpret this thing. So if you've got something sensitive that you want to say, or you want to really make sure that you get a point across, and there's no way that this could be misinterpreted, we live in a wonderful time where you could open up a screencast software, film them a quick video and say, "Hey, so here's what I'm thinking inn terms of the idea you just proposed. Here are the reasons that it's good. Here's the reasons that I'm struggling, let me know your thoughts," and you can keep it just nice and even keel. You could script it out if you're worried about saying the right words and like, I'm not a good face-to-face speaker, but there are definitely certain situations, like you said, Kevin has mentored both of us. Where being the adult in the room means learning to have good face to face or voice to voice, phone call skills in addition to good written skills. I don't know. Is that something that you've struggled with? Cause I know I have.
Jody Robertson (28:39):
Oh yeah, absolutely. And also coming from the military, you know, I can be very, as direct as I want. I can be as blunt as I want. Most of the time it's someone saying, "yes, ma'am." Even though I probably made them mad, I mean, I feel bad when I look back over some, you know, I've not always been the best person to deal with, you know, because I'm an introvert and I'm kind of, "let's just get this, the formalities out of the way." And I'm the kind of person that actually has to think, "okay. Say hi, say good morning, ask them about their kids. Now ask them where that report is." I have to think through those things in my head, I'm that much of an introvert, you know, I'm just, I don't know if that's even true. Maybe I'm that much of an asshole. I don't know that introverts in the wrong word for it.
Angie Colee (29:21):
But you know, there's nothing that ever really teaches us. I think, growing up how to be better at peopling, um, my best friend and I joke about that all the time. Like learning to be better at peopling. Um, because I do the same thing too. Like I'm, I don't identify as an introvert, but I have certain introvert tendencies. I call myself an ambivert. So there are certain situations where I am all fired up and jazzed up by the energy of people around me. Usually that's being onstage, whether I'm giving a talk or I'm singing or something like that, the moment I come down off the stage, you will literally see me shrink. And like, you could almost see the walls come up around me. Like I have left all of the energy that I possessed up on that stage. And now I don't want to talk to anybody.
Angie Colee (30:06):
So even if I just rocked your world and you're like, that's the best show ever. You're just coming up to get me a high five and a free shot. My answer is like, "no, go away. I can't people right now." So I have those, those are situations where I've had a similar realization. Like I need to be gracious and thank people and, you know, keep moving on so that I can get out of the people's situation and also bring people with me that know that I'm in this mental state that can kind of run interference for me. So I've had people at events like that where like, I need them to kind of run buffer between me and people when I've hit my wall. So I don't know, that's a good thing to bring up because I think it's important to know yourself and how you operate and that level of awareness that you demonstrated with "I need something from this person, but we need to have a human relationship too." So ask them about their family, ask them how their day is now. Where's my report. I appreciate you. Like, that's such an important skill to cultivate in life and in business.
Jody Robertson (31:10):
I mean, it's very, very likely, you know, I've, I tried to develop this network around me that if I have a serious conversation that I need to have with the client or whatever, I will still talk to my, my network first because I may be missing something or I just may need to, it's just like giving a speech, give a speech to one or two times before I get on the call with the client.
Angie Colee (31:32):
Practice is important. And you know, that actually that brings up another good point too, because not every client, not every situation needs a response right now, even if it feels really super urgent and like it's an emergency, most things could wait a minimum of 24 hours before you respond. Most things are not the emergency that they feel like they are. Okay. I'm talking mostly to the creative entrepreneurs. I realized that there are some people, maybe you're an entrepreneur in health tech or something like that, where you are literally dealing in life and death. But for those of us in the creative industry, nothing I write is going to kill anybody. I have designed my business that way on purpose. So there's literally not a life or death emergency associated with my business the way I've structured it. So every once in a while I feel like I need that perspective shift.
Angie Colee (32:22):
Like I'm not actually literally landing a plane here. I don't have people's lives in my hands. I have their livelihoods in my hands and I take that very seriously. But you know, if they wrote back to me and they're really upset about something I wrote, for instance, I've had that happen before we all have it happen, you know, for, for whatever reason, something we created, didn't hit the mark and I've written back to them a day later and said, "Hey, I've had some time to think about this" and that usually smoothes it over. Like, I don't know that. I think half of the problems that we have is because we react like that. We just feel this pressure to "somebody is upset with me. I've got to say something." And often, if you just step back, like half of the situations that I've seen, where a client was super upset, they would solve the problem on their own.
Angie Colee (33:12):
And realized that like they goofed up something and that's why they were upset. Um, or that it wasn't the issue that you thought it was. There was, there was an incident recently where, um, a client that I had removed themselves from a slack channel where we were communicating about their projects. And we would talk, check in daily. Like here's where the project's at. Here's what I need from you saw them remove themselves from slack. It immediately went into that spiral of this is it I'm fired. They hate me. Since like calms down, went for a little walk, came back, sent them an email and said, "Hey, notice this is everything okay?" No accusation, no, like, are you firing me indignation? And just waited for a response ball's in their court. They came back and said, "yeah, slack asked me to do some weird upgrade. Instead if I didn't push this button and give them a credit card that they were going to remove me and I didn't want to pay that. So they removed me I guess." And we're like, oh, well shit, I guess I need to look at my slack plan and figure out why they're trying to boot you out and make you pay because you should be a guest on my account. This shouldn't be happening. But like I tell that whole long-winded story to say, you know, if I got really in my feelings in that moment and to tie decided to fire that client before they could fire me, like, "well I see you took yourself out of the slack channel. So clearly you have a problem with me that you haven't stated. And, uh, you know, I think it's just best we terminate this relationship right now." I have seen people torch bridges like that. And it is so concerning to me that that is something that some entrepreneur groups out there would encourage you to do. I don't know. What, what are your thoughts on that? Kind of like things happen and, and should you burn the bridge down?
Jody Robertson (35:06):
Yeah. Um, let me start with this, the whole, um, needing to take that immediate action kind of feeling if I can relate it back to a pilot training thing. Um, when you're in the beginning, like I said, well, you're training to be the only pilot and you actually do solo so you are the only flight pilot on that airplane. So you're going to a military pilot training. You're flying a jet aircraft for the first time. Within seven flights, you're you're soloing. So one of the first things they do is during, um, your initial, um, classes and stuff. They do something. They teach you how to do this thing called stand up and stand up. One person's picked every morning and you stand up in front of the entire class at attention. So you can't move. You're standing there at attention. That's just your hands at your side, looking straight forward.
Jody Robertson (35:51):
And they say, "Jody, you've just taken off from runway three-six, you've rotated, you're at 120 knots. And you get this indication" and they'll put a picture on the board. And it's a fire indication of the number one engine. And they'll say you have the aircraft. So you've got to sit there and talk your way through this problem in front of everybody and a plane that you're, you, you you've got it down pretty well, but you're still learning. And you're, you know, up until this point, you've flown a Cessna. You know, you've got enough hours to have your pilot's license. That's about it. And they teach you the first thing you're going to do is take a breath, go get a drink of water. I mean, in your head and just calm down because you know, that initial instinct is, "oh my God, there's an engine fire." I mean, we, we bet out through multiple trips to the SIM and talking about it and visualizing what's going to happen. So eventually when you're out flying a real airplane, when that fire light comes on, it means nothing to you other than, okay, well, I've got a checklist around, but in the beginning, you're really amped up. And the number one rule is you kind of rattle off this thing and, and it's been 20 years or whatever, whatever, let's talk about that. But first step is, "Sir, I'm going to maintain aircraft control" and you're going to keep flying the airplane. It doesn't matter what's going on around you. It doesn't matter if a fire lights on it doesn't matter. If you've got low oil indication whatever's going on. We're not even looking at that right now. We're going to keep this airplane from hitting the ground because we're not going to panic.
Jody Robertson (37:24):
So, however long that takes, I don't know what position you're in. I don't know. What's just happened in your business. That may be 24 hours. That may be 48 hours. That may be 20 seconds from now, depending on the business, but you're gonna maintain that aircraft control. You're going to maintain, control the business. You're going to maintain control yourself and your emotions. Maybe you go for a walk, whatever you gotta do, whatever you're visualizing. You know, Chuck Yeager, OSU chewing gum. I had an aircraft commander. He used to tell me that. So I started chewing chewing gum, but maybe I'm visualizing, popping a piece of chewing gum in my mouth. While I maintain aircraft control, then I'm going to analyze the situation. I'm going to look at those indications launch, still flying the airplane. I'm going to, um, come up with a plan in my head, whatever it is. I might have some immediate action items like gotta pull the fire handle, right? And then I'm going to take the appropriate actions, which is called the fire handle. And then I'm going to come back and land as soon as conditions permit. Those are the things you rattle off. So "Jody, you have the aircraft CFR light." And I say, "sir, I'm going to maintain aircraft control. I'm going to, um, uh, analyze the situation, take appropriate actions and come back and land as soon as conditions permit, I'm going to maintain aircraft control by pulling wings level," depending on where I was, you know, rolling the wings level and checking my speed. I say these things and I stepped in every little step all the way around the pattern back around the land. And I think, you know, if you're having shit go sideways in your business, or just your friends said something off to you or whatever, take that breath and visualize getting a piece of gum, just go for your walk, just maintain aircraft control because you don't want to take a perfectly good relationship, a perfectly good business and fly it in the ground because you, your brain went off on some other direction.
Angie Colee (39:06):
That's so important because when the emotions are in control, when they're, when they're steering your ship, you are not making decisions with your best judgment, with your client's best interest in mind. You're just reacting to stimulus. You know, I have kind of a similar story in that. I'm glad you brought up fire, cause I'm going to go off on a tangent now too. Once upon a time I was a firefighter and we had similar drills that we would go through, you know, just, uh, station wide drills, where you were working with your team and you learn to communicate in a similar way. And we had a lot of instances where we wouldn't necessarily be able to communicate, like if you're in a building, uh, how do you communicate to someone? How do you use hand signals to communicate what's going on? Things like that. So we would put ourselves into practice situations like that.
Angie Colee (39:50):
And then there were big citywide and countywide drills where we would fake a gigantic emergency that required all of these different agencies to interact. And there was always like a command center, the people that got all the data and then filtered it out to the people that needed to know. And then there were people in the field that would triage like, "okay, I can't help somebody that's dead." I can't like if this person is, it sounds pretty horrible. Like if this person has a high likelihood of living and they're seriously injured, I'm going to move them to the front of the line. If this person has a broken leg, but it doesn't look like it's life-threatening well, then they've got to wait until we get these more serious people taken care of. Um, and we had situations like that too. Like if I went into a house fire the first and I'm tasked with putting this house, fire out, one of the questions I'm going to ask myself after assessing the situation is where did this fire start? Cause if it started in the kitchen, there's a high likelihood, I do not want to put water on that. It could be a grease fire. And when you apply water to a grease fire, the fire grows exponentially very quickly. And that's why it's really critical to kind of take a step back from that reaction place, get yourself into a more sane and balanced and calm. If you can get there centered approach to where you can look at things rationally and as objectively as possible, and then make decisions from there because that's when you've got your best chance of success. These are such great stories.
Jody Robertson (41:23):
Yeah, right?
Angie Colee (41:25):
Now you know why I was like, "Jody, please come on the podcast and talk to me about pilot-y stuff." I love it. Um, so this has been a fantastic conversation. I would totally love to do a follow-up if you're down for that.
Jody Robertson (41:36):
Yeah, sure.
Angie Colee (41:37):
Tell us a little bit more about where we can find your information.
Jody Robertson (41:40):
Uh, I think the best place is probably at funnelcopyexperts.com and, um, that's where you can get all my contact information. You can see what I've been doing, and I've got a lot of good videos on there for how to improve the copy for your business. You know, a lot of times people can approve it on their own. So
Speaker 1 (41:59):
That's awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show and we're going to talk soon. So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.