Angie Colee (00:02):
Welcome to permission to kick a podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee and let's get to it. Oh yes. This is the one I have been waiting for ladies and gentlemen. It is my pleasure to introduce you to my friend, Jimmy Parent, who I am very, very excited to have on permission to kick ass today. Hi Jimmy.
Jimmy Parent (00:30):
Hi friend.
Angie Colee (00:31):
Tell us a little bit about your background and what you do.
Jimmy Parent (00:35):
Yeah. Drugs, a lot of drugs. No, no, I am that's. That is not me. So the label that I gave myself is I am a persuasion scientist. And the reason why that's true is because I made it up. And I mean, so like my background honestly is I have 19 different backgrounds. I mean, once upon a time I was a race car fabricator. I was an aerospace welder. I was a pre-med student. I got a degree in stuff that revolves around radiation physics. I was, you know, 'cause I was going to go to medical school. I worked as an x-ray tech, you know, so what that basically meant was I was overqualified and unemployable for everything, you know, and I discovered, Hey, I'm just not a good fit to be an employee for anyone. Um, I have this, this weirdly aggressive drive for autonomy, you know, I just want to have control.
Jimmy Parent (01:35):
Right? Yeah. So I just want to have control over my own, uh, I guess decisions and outcome and anything. It's like the moment someone tells me what to do and I don't really agree with it. I just, I feel like a trapped animal in a cage and I'm like, I just have to get out, you know, even if it's not in my best interest and you know, so naturally I've been labeled things like add ADHD, depression, anxiety, and all that stuff. And I'm a total, I'm a total rebel. Um, yeah. So w w I don't know. Oh yeah. Sales where I went in as next, I went into sales and I was like, this is really cool. I really like this because, you know, I, I discovered, Hey, sales, isn't the art of making people buy stuff. They don't need that. That's a big part of my whole autonomy thing.
Jimmy Parent (02:32):
You know, it's like, I don't, I hate when people tell me what to do. I don't want to tell other people what to do, you know? And, uh, I, I heard this really cool quote that, um, that I really appreciate it. And I cannot remember right now it's Oh, it's talking about leadership. Right. So if there's, if there's convincing someone, right. Which convincing has root words, the root word is means like to conquer and so, I don't want to conquer someone into doing something. And then there's like persuasion. Okay. Which persuasion and influence it's one of those, like, uh, when you use the word, like a ethereal like, what does it even mean? You know? Uh, but it, you know, it's kind of helping people and then either way at the higher level of those things is leadership. Right. And so with leadership, it's, I'm going to use art here. Right? So it's like the art of getting people to want to do the things that need to be done. Right. That have to be done. Yeah. That that's a Jim Collins thing, you know, the good to great guy and, and beyond entrepreneurship 2.0. Um, and so another thing that I learned from him and that I feel really speaks to my core values and my core motivators and why I can't help, but to give so much, he says, never stifle a generous impulse. Yes.
Angie Colee (04:00):
Oh, God. I love that because I've had people say the same thing about me, that it seems like I'm, they joke that I'm everywhere. No, I'm ADD and distracting myself. Uh, and I'm always like answering questions and stuff and forms, but that's really where I get a lot of joy if I've been through that particular struggle. And I can answer a question and help someone through the other side of that. And it only took a couple of minutes of my time then yeah. I'm going to do it. And it helped me put off that project. I've been putting off forever. So, you know, win win lose win
Jimmy Parent (04:30):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. You know, I mean, so through all that, I was like, all right, so what, like, this is all cool. I'm learning a lot about myself and what I like, uh, what am I going to be when I grow up though?
Angie Colee (04:43):
Are you grown up though? Now?
Jimmy Parent (04:45):
No. I'm still figuring, figuring this stuff out. You know? So I remember, so I was working at this job, you know, I feel like I've told this story a million times now I was working at this job where I was doing sales. And I started getting a lot of sales through text and email, you know, and I was like, Oh, it's a no brainer offer. People would book a call. And, um, I just texted him an email. I'm like, Hey, do you have any questions about this? No, not, not really. Okay.
Jimmy Parent (05:12):
Can I just send you the link to sign up? Okay. You know, very conversational. And I would consistently being like the top, the top three salespeople. And so I remember one time I was the number two salesperson and the sales manager guy called me into his office. Like, we're, you know, something, you gotta make sure you're using your, your work phone, not the cell phones. We can't track your time. I was like, okay. I'm not like, what, uh, what? And he's like, well, you're on the phone. It only, it says here, you're only on the phone, 15 minutes a day. I'm like, yeah, that's about right. You know? And he's like, well, you know, and the number one guy, he was on the phone nine hours a day. And he's like, well, how are you getting all these sales? I'm like, I'm just getting through texts and email and the sales manager at the, it wasn't a very good leader.
Jimmy Parent (06:00):
I'll just leave it at that nice guy, horrible leader. And he was, he was like, well, you need to like do this over the phone. I'm like, that's dumb. You know, was like, this is obviously working. Well, the marketing manager, I guess, caught wind of this. Like it found its way up. And he came in and he's like, he's like, so he's like, you're insane. Like, I didn't know you were a copywriter. I was like, Oh yeah, what's a copywriter. You know? Cause I had this idea that a copywriter, you know, someone who writes sales copy, you know, stuff where you read something and it makes you want to buy it. You know? So I had the idea that a copywriter was someone who writes blog posts, you know, he's sitting in like this, this hipster coffee shop in Portland, you know, writing blog posts on his Mac book.
Jimmy Parent (06:45):
And, and I was like, I was like, I'm not really that he's like that, uh, that, that is sort of a copywriter too, you know, he's like, but then there's like sales copy where you use like a lot of persuasion and conversation. And I was like, Oh yeah, I guess I'm a, I guess I'm a copywriter, you know? And I just, you know, total identity shift. Right. It was like suddenly I'm a different person. And so, you know, so, we end this conversation and I go back to my desk and it's like, I remember I had like 20 minutes before my next call and I was just Googling copywriting. Right. And at the time I had a long commute and so I discovered podcasts, right. So I'm like copywriting podcasts. And it's like, Oh, there's this guy writing this podcast or doing this podcast called the truth about marketing, you know, uh, Kevin Rogers.
Jimmy Parent (07:33):
And I was like, I'm just gonna listen to the most recent episode. And it was, I remember was episode one Oh one Parris Lampropoulos it's like what a perfect freaking episode to drop into because I am a huge site, uh, psychology, behavioral economics, you know, just behavioral stuff, always fascinated me and that's Paris. Right. And he's always talking about that stuff. So I listened to that one and it was like, Oh, the next day is when episode one Oh two came out, you know, that, uh, part two of Parris's episode. And like, I'm just like in love, you know, I'm like, I have a man crush on these guys. Like I'm loving everything they're talking about. And then I listened to, and you know, so I'm like just diving deep into the stuff. And I'm like, there's people like me, I didn't know. They existed, you know? And all these people they're like, yes, like I'm just saying yes. And like, you know, like, like fist pumping to a podcast, you know?
Jimmy Parent (08:35):
Yeah. Like Guido fist bump, you know, just like, yeah, bro. And just like totally digging into this stuff. And then, uh, you know, I don't remember how much later, you know, but I'm just like going through these episodes, new episode comes out. Right. And it's with this, with this old dude named John Carlton and, and I'm like, cool, you I'm in, you know, listening to it. And I'm like, Whoa, this guy is absolutely speaking my love language. Just like how he looks at the world, how he looks at people. And I remember, I don't know if it was this podcast or another with him, but he was talking about like, there there's something that happens where the more you learn about people, you there's a part of you that kind of falls in love with people a little bit more, but also grows like incredibly intolerant of people. Like, yeah, I feel that dichotomy, you know? And so anyway, and at the end of the episode, he's like, yeah, by the way, doing this thing, simple writing system coaching, learn how to do this stuff. And somehow convinced my wife, Hey, I know we, I know we're broke, we're going to spend five grand on this. And for some reason through my, you know, natural powers of persuasion, you know, con persuaded her to do it, you know, and it was
Angie Colee (09:53):
Good. It's good to have a supportive partner.
Jimmy Parent (09:56):
Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's very important, you know, so do this thing. And I, that's where I really genuinely discovered, um, Hey, learning information sucks. That is like, uh, a horrible, horrible way to learn. I'll just call it what it is. You know, supposedly we learn most of what we learned through experiential learning, right. Uh, uh, to put that into practice, feedback, coaching, you know, Hey, I see you, you, you watch the module. Okay. And you did the homework and you thought you did it. Right. Right. You did all the things, you didn't do it. Right. Let's shift this tiny thing about how you're thinking about it. Right. And all of a sudden things started clicking for me and I realized, Oh, I need to quit writing. Copy, you know, doing copywriting. I need to quit trying to write copy and just write how I talk and write what I'm thinking and how I feel about stuff.
Angie Colee (10:49):
I think that's really important because a lot of newer business owners, I think really struggle with that concept of sales. And I'm so glad that that's your background too, because they think that same thing we all have that hang up of the pushy used car sales with, like the slick thing. And won't take the pressure off until you say, yes, you feel like you totally got backed into a corner doing a thing you didn't want to do. And those of us that are skilled at, you know, I'm going to presume to be, we're both pretty skilled copywriters here, but we take that power very seriously. And it's like, I only want you, if you want to be here, let's talk about this. Instead of like high pressure by my thing, buy my thing, buy what have you bought the thing? Buy the thing. Um, I do love that.
Angie Colee (11:30):
And, and John Carlton is somebody that I have found fascinating for years because like, you, he's very interested in how people think, how they behave, but he holds that dichotomy in his head, which is interesting too. Like, I love people because they're endlessly fascinating and look at all this weird. They do like, Ooh, it's almost like being in a zoo and watching all the monkeys throw stuff at each other. I'm pretty sure he's that exact analogy before. Uh, and by the same token, I don't like having shit thrown at me. So like people me off and I've always been fascinated that like, especially in our culture, we tend to think of things as good or evil and like no gray area in between. And that kind of complex thinking about how humans work. Like I can love you and be frustrated as hell by you at the same time. John Carlton really taught me a lot about how to think like another person and maybe understand where they're coming from, where I think in the past, I would've just been like, you're a Dick,
Jimmy Parent (12:32):
a new appreciation for sure. For you, for who people are in a new kind of hatred at the same time,
Angie Colee (12:43):
I told you all, this is going to be a good episode. I told you.
Jimmy Parent (12:46):
Yeah. If you're not sleeping already. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So did that. Right. Learned all that stuff. That's really cool. Um, was promptly picked up by this, uh, really cool guy named Joe Schriefer, uh, with, Agora. And the reason why I had been talking to him is because around the same time I had in an effort to learn more about humans and therefore myself, you know, I was like, I feel like this craving for craftsmanship. And I'm like, that's the only way I could think to describe it. At the time someone recommended a book to me called mastery by Robert Green. Okay. And Mastery's like, basically detailing all the lives of all these different people who ultimately became masters of their field. You know, some, some of the more obvious ones would be like Leonardo DaVinci and how he's a total rebel. Right. And like an absolute, just like, like, Hey, I'm going to commission you to paint this thing.
Jimmy Parent (13:51):
And he's like, yeah, no, but go ahead and give me the money. I'll do it whenever I feel like it. Right. And so people would like get mad at him. And he's the only one who could do what he did, you know, in the area at that time. And so finally, you know, they pressure him enough and he does it and it's a masterpiece, you know, and it's like world famous. And it was just kind of like the, uh, I don't feel like it, you know, and that was his project. Right. And I'm like, Oh, I feel all of those things, you know, I'm like, I've, I'm, I need deadlines. And I need, uh, pressure to do the things that I don't want to do. But if it's something where it's like, I just, I'm really interested in this thing. You know, suddenly I'll do like 50 hours of research and like write up all this stuff just because I feel like it, you know, and I was like, okay, you know, but the point is, uh, the, the moral of that story that I got out of that book is like, Hey, uh, just go ahead and kind of follow your intuition, follow your, follow your heart.
Jimmy Parent (14:45):
It could, because it's going to lead you down this path of mastery, right. Mastery, isn't this, Hey, I'm going to follow this regimented linear path. It's like, no, it's, it's going to lead you down some wacky, uh, things that you've never, you know, like I was, it was a welder and I'm a pre-med student now I'm writing advertising. Copy. That doesn't make any sense.
Angie Colee (15:07):
Yeah. We'll have to compare our backgrounds sometimes. Cause like I've, I've picked up trash. I've been a firefighter. I've done all kinds of crazy stuff in my past too. So, um,
Jimmy Parent (15:16):
No. Or like Abbey, the, the, uh, instructor, like what the balls is going on there. Yeah. Yeah. So we have, uh, so I, so I worked with Agora financial. That was, that was cool. Turns out I, you know, one of the easiest ways to find out what you want is to find out what you don't want. Right. And that's the only way you could do that. It's again, get out and do stuff, right? Like this whole, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to specialize. It's like, well, you haven't done anything. You don't even know if you're gonna like that. Right. Just do what do all of it and say like, Hey, uh, I done, uh, 50 things, 49 of them sucked. Right. And one of them, I was like, Oh, I'm just like weirdly talented if you will at this. And I love it.
Jimmy Parent (15:57):
And I could do that like forever. Right. And so it's like, okay, that's, that's your thing. You know? And so, uh, with, Agora financial it's like, I just financials, financials, financial it's. Some people are just like awesome at it. I'm like, I just don't care. I don't care. And I don't, you know, it doesn't align with a lot of my own core values of, you know, I know this isn't a podcast about that, you know, but you know, it's like, I don't want to sell people, stuff that isn't, that like, I can't even like fake justify that it's going to help them. Even if I apply all the, all the pseudo law of attraction, BS stuff too. It's like, I still can't justify it. Right. If you, if you work hard, it's like, now it's just, it's not going to help them.
Angie Colee (16:41):
I feel very, very strongly about that point. And in fact, that's why I always draw such a distinction, I think in copywriting and being ethical. And like, I think I said at the beginning, if I didn't say it, I'm saying it now, like you and I, we persuade people, but we use our powers for good. I know that I, for one understands like the implications of me persuading someone to buy something. That's going to wreck them financially and really have an impact on their quality of lives. And I will not, I will not write a single damn word for a product that I think is going to screw someone over. There are other people out there that don't share that same worldview. And that's not a value judgment for them, but I know what I stand for. And that's what, one thing that I will not do, I want to make sure that I can feel if I'm selling everything to my grandma. And if my grandma can't use it, I ain't going to sell it.
Jimmy Parent (17:33):
And isn't it amazing how you can't sell something that you don't believe in? Some people can. Right? I mean, but for some reason I cannot, as I've written for that stuff and it's, and it's bombed every time I've written for that stuff, it's bombed. And I'm so grateful that that was the case
Angie Colee (17:50):
That's a good way to look at it too. Like being grateful for a failure, but that it showed you something about yourself that you needed to learn. Because I think a lot of people see failure as like a stopping point or a personal shortcoming. It's it's data. I heard one person say once, well you win or you learn. And I really liked that viewpoint because like you either, you, you try your best at something and you win. However, winning looks like to, you could be a lot of money. It could be a success, could be any number of things, right. Or you don't win, which doesn't necessarily mean you lose. If you learn something you're that much closer to winning next time. So like winner, win or learn, I love that.
Jimmy Parent (18:34):
Well, you raise a really good point. We don't learn anything from winning, you know, especially in, in our world of advertising, you know, we're, we're just guessing, you know, we're absolutely just guessing if something works, we have no idea why, you know,
Angie Colee (18:49):
it's a million different pieces.
Jimmy Parent (18:51):
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so many factors, right? It's chaos theory out here. We're just making educated guesses, you know, we're closer to the bullseye than not having our skillset and our, our knowledge and expertise, you know? So we're still just guessing. It's it's like, Hey, put this out here. Maybe the timing was right. You know, for the market, like a Bitcoin now, or Bitcoin in 2017, you know, or Hey, maybe beanie babies are popular. So suddenly that's why that beanie baby letter works so well. I don't, I don't even know why I came up with that. I don't think that was a thing.
Angie Colee (19:21):
I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that's applicable to multiple businesses. Right? I talk about copy a lot. I talk with copywriters a lot, but it doesn't matter whether you write, whether you paint, whether you take photos, whether you bake, whatever your creative business endeavor is, this stuff translates across all of that. These sales skills are going to be important to building your business and all of this stuff you can learn. Uh, none of it is necessarily an inherent talent like Jimmy has with persuasion that he discovered, but not being good at something. Once you throw yourself into it and try it out, doesn't necessarily mean you weren't meant to do this thing. It just means that you found a way that doesn't work. And if we look at life on the whole, not everything is bad and not everything is good. So you're not going to get bad shit all the time. And you're not going to get good shit all the time. If you're in the majority good column, you're winning as far as I'm concerned. So
Jimmy Parent (20:20):
Yeah. You know, some really cool advice I got was was it's four letters or four letters, four words, okay. Before you do anything. Okay. And those four words are, it's just an experiment. Yes. Right. And because with an experiment in, in science and you know, the hypotheses and all these, all these things, there's no good or bad, there's just results. Okay. Sometimes the results, aren't what you want. That's fine. But if you're measuring for like, did it work right? It did I win? Or did I lose? It's like, if that's what you're measuring for, you're really putting yourself at risk. You know? So how can you remove the risk for yourself? It's like, why I'm just, just do, it's just an experiment. I'm just looking for results. Right. And sometimes the results are, it didn't work. Okay. Well now I know. Right? And so therefore it was a success because the only way you can lose in that context is to not do it at all.
Angie Colee (21:17):
Yep. To completely give up or stop. That is really the only context in starting business where you lose. Cause there have been people, there are big name, industry leaders, multiple, multiple millionaires who have literally gone bankrupt, publicly and lost everything and rebuilt it from the ground up. Like, um, there's a financial guy that I follow love him or hate him. Dave Ramsey. He's, he's taught me a little bit about personal finance and he's very public about the fact that he made poor financial choices in the past. And that's why he's passionate about teaching people about finances now because he's lost everything and then figured out how to get back. I have a similar story where to learn copywriting, to get good at copywriting. I can't explain it to this day. Something in my gut told me I needed to be in San Francisco, but that meant losing my apartment and not having anywhere to go and staying in my car.
Angie Colee (22:06):
My parents were understandably pissed because my dumb ass called home and said, so I'm going to move into my car hits. If you're going to live in your car, maybe tell your parents after you've gotten out of the car and not before you plan on moving into the car, but that's, that's another rant front of the day. Um, something in my gut told me I had to stay. And literally the day that I lost my apartment, I signed a contract for a part-time copywriting gig. And like, I'm not a very woo person. I don't believe I manifested that. I turned in hundreds and hundreds of applications and did all kinds of writing tests to prove that I had the skills. Like I earned that role when it came in. But the timing to me was really, really interesting because if I had given up and decided to go home and move in with the parents, I probably would have been waiting tables for the rest of my life.
Angie Colee (22:55):
And we wouldn't have this conversation right now. Like this podcast wouldn't exist. None of the people that I know would even know me because I made that one critical decision to like, I mean, I know that this is an indication by conventional standards, that I am a failure because I have lost everything and I'm living in my car, but this is something I need to do right now. And then on the other side of that, it's taught me, I'm still freaking scared of losing everything because it never really goes away, especially if you've been through it before and don't want to go back. Um, but I also know in the back of my head that as long as I've got a breath in me, there's coming back, it's going to come back. So
Jimmy Parent (23:33):
It's like a, it's a weird kind of conviction, right. Where it's like, Hey, even like the worst case scenario. Right. Um, I, I struggle with that word or that phrase anyways, because it's like worst case scenario is always, everybody dies, you know? And it's like, okay. Uh, so that, knowing that that's worst case scenario, it's like, nobody's going to die probably, you know, not directly because of this. Uh, hopefully. And, and so it's like, okay, well then what am I worried about? Right. And that's, that's one of those things where it's like, yeah, this sounds good. Hey, I listened to it on a podcast. Sounds good. It's not going to change your life. It's one of those, you know, experiential learning, right? It's one of those things you have to discover for yourself. And you're going to have your own version of discovering that. But the point of discovery is the adventure.
Jimmy Parent (24:27):
Right? You can't discover anything sitting still, you know, you have to get out there. And that's, that's where another thing that I absolutely love, um, I think this is like a Carol Dweck thing, right? Like the grit, grit. And so, and I, and Angie, I know I shared this with you on a, on another call, but she talks about the difference between wanting something, which is, you know, say ambition, right? Uh, the difference between ambition and volition and with ambition, it's like, you only, you only want it. And that's the, that's why we don't get anything that we want because you only want it when you only want something you, by default, you're not going to put in all the necessary, hard work you have to put into to actually get that thing. It's just not going to happen. You know? Cause when things get hard, it's okay, I'm done.
Jimmy Parent (25:23):
I'm out, you know, poof I'm a ghost. Okay. So it's because you only wanted it, but with volition, volition is you do things because it's who you are. Right. And you put in all the necessary, hard work, uh, and it's not even work. You just do it. Right. Like, like think of we've all had those projects, you know, talking about copywriting for a second, you know, we've had client projects where hey I'm selling a thing that I just don't care about. Right. And it is awful doing the research and digging into it. And it's just like, the project takes forever. It performs like crap or if it performs, okay, it was, it was an accident, you know, or, or the market was perfect. Right. It's like, yeah, I'm selling alcohol to alcoholics. Like, Oh, it's like, yeah, that was not your sales letter that did that. You know, but then compare that to the things that we're interested in. Like I know you're a musician, I'm a musician. Like I will, I will spend hours, you know, reading sheet music or, you know, because I'm a lazy guitarist, you know, tabs, you know, learning about like, Oh, I'm going to play this song and I'll just do it for hours. Or I'll spend hours reading, uh, behavioral psychology books or epistomology or things like that because I want to, and it's who I am. Oh,
Angie Colee (26:44):
I love that. Because like, you know, you mentioned experience, you spend hours reading guitar tabs, and then at some point you pick up a guitar and play. Right. I mean, that, that makes so much sense to people. And so I want to draw a parallel to that in business. Like you sit there and you make a plan for your business and your backup plans. And like, you decide how you're going to react in a situation, which hands, when a situation is happening to you have no idea how you're going to react. And the plan is going to go out the window. Like just, that's just trust yourself to be human and figure it out. But at some point you got to pick up the guitar and play, and it's the same thing with business. Like I'm reasonably sure playing this guitar, having looked at all these tabs and all these instructions that I know where to put my fingers.
Angie Colee (27:28):
I know how to formulate this note with my hands, but I'm not going to know if I actually get it until I put my hands on the fret board and strum and go, Ooh, that sounded bad. Or, Oh, Hey, that's what that sounds like. Okay. That sounded pretty good strong, strum it a few times, same thing with business, like nothing is going to prepare you for actually putting yourself out there and doing it. Nothing is going to teach you more than putting yourself out there and actually doing the work. And that means, yeah, necessarily that you're going to hit a few bad notes as you learned to play that guitar.
Jimmy Parent (28:01):
Hey, here's, here's something really interesting. I stumbled upon and maybe you can connect some dots for me.
Angie Colee (28:07):
Okay.
Jimmy Parent (28:08):
Okay. So in, in learning to play songs on guitar early, you know, learning to do anything, the common practice is, Hey, start slow and build up fast, start slow and build up fast. Okay. Well, one time pretty recently, like literally in the last couple of weeks, I was like, you know what? I have this, you know, following my intuition, right. I'm going to try and do something different. Okay. I'm going to try and play this song, uh, like 50% faster than it's supposed to be played. Okay. And like, absolutely fumbling through this thing. Right? Like these, anyone who, who plays guitar knows, uh, screw the F chord. For some reason, my fingers just cannot do the thing, you know? And it's like, I have to work really hard to nail the F chord.
Jimmy Parent (28:55):
And this song had like, it, it, it had like the F chord several times, you know? And it's like, okay, so a lot of awkward positions and I just got mad, Oh, you know what? It was, I was learning how to play. Um, it was a song from frozen 2, you know, like the, where the North wind meets the sea.
Angie Colee (29:15):
I watched that recently, I love it. Yeah.
Jimmy Parent (29:16):
And it's like, dude, I love that song I have. So I am a geek for the unknown. I remember not that one. It's, it's a different one. Um, but either, either way, I know this isn't the podcast about frozen. So, um,
Angie Colee (29:28):
It says it's not, I'm wearing my Disney hoodie as her recording, whatever, keep going. You were frustrated by that. Of course.
Jimmy Parent (29:34):
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, okay. And this song has that so many times. Right. So I got irritated and um, and I just started rushing through the song, you know, cause like I just got done playing Megadeath and Metallica and I'm like, I feel like playing this song, frozen Tucson, you know, does this song, you know? And so like I got irritated and totally went like speed metal on the song, you know? And, and just like die, you know, bang, you know, just bashing through it, you know, bull in a China shop kind of thing to, you know, gain turned all the way up and you know, just did that a bunch. And then the next day, all of a sudden I was able to play it like perfectly when leading up to that, I had been trying to do it slower, you know, slow, slow.
Jimmy Parent (30:19):
And I was like, huh, that's an interesting thing. You know? And so then I tried it with other songs and all of a sudden I'm able to play difficult songs, way faster by starting off and just like screwing it all up, you know, like ah this solo, you know, sounds like my first day on a guitar, you know, just like dude, dude, dude, dude, that dude, you know, and it's like, nothing makes sense. You know, but for some reason later, right after you have that delay, you know, give yourself a day gap, 24 hour gap, and then you sit down and all of a sudden it's like, this is magic. So, I mean, do you, what do you think? Tell me why
Angie Colee (30:54):
I think you already hit on it and it's the we've been kind of circling around this. The whole conversation is this concept of detachment. When you got frustrated and you decided to play this as fast as possible, you literally detached yourself from the possibility of getting this thing. Perfect. And you removed all judgment of yourself for fear. Cause you like in trying to do this as fast as possible and as accurate as you can do, but acknowledging that you are setting yourself an impossible task, you allowed yourself to want to have fun with it, to enjoy the process three, not get it perfect. And still keep going. And you kind of force yourself to finish a thing, put it all together, even if it wasn't perfect and then see how it went. And that's almost exactly everything that we've been talking about this whole time, like just making yourself do it. And I think there's something to be said for making yourself go all the way through a thing, just to learn what you can learn, even if it's not right or it's not entirely perfect. Cause again, like going through the exercise, making yourself do the thing is where you get that retention and that understanding. Does that make sense?
Jimmy Parent (32:02):
Yeah. That th that feels true and feel that that feels very, very true. And I know before we started recording, one of the things you wanted to talk about was how, when I came into copy chief, um, I just started writing, you know, and just, just writing and I'm very comfortable with failing in a safe space.
Angie Colee (32:25):
I think that's an important thing. And for everybody that's new to the show, copy chief is a community for copywriters and that's where Jimmy and I met. And you know, since copywriting is my background, obviously I know a lot of copywriters, but one thing that a lot of the new folks struggle is fear of putting their work out there, fear of actually writing. And it's like, that's the number one question that I wind up asking people when they want to be writers? How, how much do you write? Oh, well I don't have any paying clients yet. Eh wrong answer like writers, right? It doesn't matter whether you're getting paid or not. Are you putting words on paper? Are you setting assignments for yourself and trying to practice or are you trying to analyze something and deconstruct it and figure out why it works? Are you reading a lot? All of these things are what make a writer and then having the courage to put your work out there to be read because the other half of being a writer is having someone read your, even if it's post humus, you know, some writers never published until they were dead. And their work was discovered. Don't be that person, uh, you can always improve on your writing while you're alive and make a living from it. Jimmy and I are living proof of that.
Jimmy Parent (33:32):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, came in writing stuff and Oh yeah. So it was talking about how failing in a safe space. Right. And so I had thought about this for a long, like for years after this, right? Like why in that circumstance was I so open to failing in a safe space? Like there's a lot of times where, Hey, we're in a we're we're here to learn. Right. It's uh, there's no wrong answers and which we all know is a lie. It's still a lie, there's always wrong answers, you know? And, and it's, so it's like, okay, uh, why is it? They don't believe it. Why? I don't believe in those circumstances, but I did. And this one. Okay. And I really reflected on that for a long, long time. And obviously I don't know what the perfect answer is, but here's what it feels like.
Jimmy Parent (34:21):
The answer was for me is, you know, there, there was two main things. One of them was, uh, I kind of had a, Hey, I've done everything in my life. This is my last resort. Okay. So it had one of those pieces of volition, right? Like I had the identity shifts like, Oh man, I'm a copywriter. This is who I am. Right. And so it's like, well, this is what I have to do. Right. Uh, that this is, I don't have another choice. Right. But there's also a piece of a part of that that feels hopeless, you know? And so, but it wasn't that I didn't feel hopeless like, Oh, this better work. You know, it, for some reason, it wasn't like that. You know? So that part is still an interesting thing to explore.
Angie Colee (35:08):
The volition thing that you mentioned mentioned with Carol Dweck, like it was a thing that you needed to do and okay. I'm glad I'm recalling that part of our conversation. Cause you know, we know a guy named Chris Orzechowsi. He's hilarious. Um, we had a similar chat about how people want something, but they're not willing to do the work to get it like, so I would give anything to be that Olympic athletes standing on that. Would you though, would you be up at four o'clock in the morning doing the work? I sure as hell wouldn't Nope. All of them. Yeah.
Jimmy Parent (35:42):
I didn't get up in the middle of the night to go pee. You're not going to get up and go swim.
Angie Colee (35:47):
Like all of my admiration for those people that work hard enough because they want it. And I think that's the exact same thing that you had going for you when you came into that community. Cause we were laughing about like when did we even meet? I don't know, just like a sudden, suddenly Jimmy was in my world one day and I was like, Oh, I like that guy. But you put yourself out there. You were, you never tried to be anybody, but yourself, you didn't try to emulate someone else's style and pass it off. As yours, you were always trying to write something through a Jimmy filter. See if you could get that message across clearly and then taking the feedback and implementing it instead of like, no, here's all the reasons instead of shutting down and saying, no, here's all the reasons that I did all the things and you critiquers are wrong.
Angie Colee (36:33):
And I think that's a good thing in business, in life and creativity, you are going to get a lot of criticism and a lot of feedback, whether you ask for it or not people for some reason think that they're entitled to give you their fucking opinion, get used to it. This is what happens when you put yourself out there. But not every piece of information that you get is something that you need to listen to and work on. This kind of goes back to what you said earlier about taking in the stuff that makes sense to you and doing that because not, everything's going to make sense to you. So follow your gut, go with what feels good because there's a hundred different ways to do any one thing, even ride a bicycle, like look at all these kids that ride one backwards and up on one wheel. And like, this is shit that I never even would have conceived of, but they're still technically riding a bike, right. A hundred different solutions for every problem out there. A hundred different ways to do everything out there that there is to be done. Who's not to say that your way isn't perfectly valid just because it's different from the way everybody else does it.
Jimmy Parent (37:38):
Yeah. You know, I think of, look, if you're going to play an instrument, right. Playing guitar, you know, obviously I'm biased towards that. Um, in saying like, ah, I I'd like to start a band, but I can't because there's already a band out there. Right. And it's like all of a sudden, it's like, when you put it in that context, it's like, that's, that's dumb. There's like thousands, millions probably of, of bands, you know, and hundreds of thousands of very successful musicians that have their own pockets of, of raving fans, you know? And it's like, yeah, yeah, sure. There's, there's those super musicians like the Metallicas, or them, or, you know, Mariah Careys or whoever, you know, that kind of thing. Um, maybe that's not what you shoot for. Maybe you don't shoot for anything at all. It's just like, that's not an excuse to not do the thing that you want to do because one person out there already did it.
Jimmy Parent (38:39):
You know? I mean, I had someone email me recently, like, ah, I'd really like to get better at this stuff. You know, I want to do more email things, but like I read your emails and it's like, Oh, they're, they're so good. And, and it's like, there's no way I can compete with you. And it's like, I just told them. I was like, well, uh, first of all, I don't work with clients. So I'm not even your competition in the first place.
Angie Colee (39:01):
You're not competing with me.
Jimmy Parent (39:03):
You're not competing. Like there's a reason why I give away everything I know and everything that I write about, you know, it's like what one? The generous impulse thing, you know, that we talk about, you know? But two it's like, I like to see people when they're done. I don't know why. I don't know why. I just love that. Yeah. That's, that's one of the main things where it's like, Oh, our values align there. Right? It's it's it's, you know, to get like pseudo woo here. It's like, Oh, it's like, I feel like our souls are talking.
Angie Colee (39:29):
Yes. And I mean, when I first started in business, I fell in, you know, speaking of like being unaligned, I fell in with people that were very, you know, you want that info, you pay for it, close to the vest, you know,
Jimmy Parent (39:43):
behind the paywall,
Angie Colee (39:44):
everything is transactional. And the funny thing is that like, when I threw that out, the window followed my gut and was like, you know what? I can help you. This is going to take me five minutes to answer this question. Sometimes I've surprised people by even filming a video, which Hey, technically is actually easier than writing up a response. Cause I can just jump on camera and ramble.
Jimmy Parent (40:02):
Yay loom!
Angie Colee (40:02):
But yes, what a time to be alive with the technology that we've got. But I, if it takes me five minutes, sometimes even 10 minutes or less, I'm happy to help somebody.
Angie Colee (40:13):
And the funny thing is like that triggers reciprocity, like we talk about in sales and persuasion, people want to turn around and help me, which I even have a hard time asking for. Like, you would probably appreciate this story. Jimmy, just in getting this podcast out into the world, I had a whole lot of internal head trash, which is why that made it even more apparent that I had to get this out into the world. Because if I'm struggling with it, there are other people struggling with their, with what they're trying to do. And I was like, how can I even ask people out there to help me promote this, to help me grow my, my follower list, to get people, to subscribe to this podcast. Even though I know that it's going to help them and our mutual friend, Rachel said, girl, you have been putting so many deposits into your relationship banks without ever making a withdrawal. And it is time to cash out. So you know, the generous impulse, it's not about giving. So you can get it's about giving because when you have a need, someone's going to be there to help you out too.
Jimmy Parent (41:12):
There's an important distinction right there. Okay. When a lot of people think of reciprocity, what they actually mean is transactions. You know, when people are like, Hey, I'm going to, Hey, I'm going to use the law of reciprocity on my website. Hey, give me your email. And then I'll send you this thing. It's like, no, that's a transaction. You know, and amazing how, Hey, whatever, whatever was in your lead magnet, if you will, you know, or your tripwire offer, make that, make that your actual ad. Right? And then, Hey, if you want more like this and to your email, it's suddenly not only do conversions, they typically double, triple, right? Uh, your quality of relationships with those people goes way, way up. And you know, and I know I'm using a copywriting term here, uh, or copywriting scenario here, but you know, relate that to any business that you're in relationships with friends, loved ones. It's all it's like, Hey, give first. And don't withhold. Just give right. I, I remember someone, some, someone much smarter than me. Uh, that I can't remember who said, this was like, Hey, the more you can show people what it's like to be your customer, the more customers you'll get.
Angie Colee (42:28):
Exactly, exactly. Like I've talked about that. My mom has a bakery business, which is really interesting and she'll, she probably will not do it, but I keep trying to persuade her to start a YouTube channel and teach people to bake. Like she taught me to bake when I was a kid. Uh, I know it's like, no, you don't understand mom. Like I still remember like buttering up coffee can biscuits and rolling this stuff out with you and asking how, you know, the temperatures right. Watching you make candy. Like, I still remember all this stuff. And one of the kids could I do it now? Probably not. But with a video reminder, yes. And her first reaction was like, I can't do that. There are so many baking YouTube channels out there. And I'm like, yeah, but none of them are you. And you've got that sweet Southern accent. And you're the rum cake lady. And like you put booze in all of your baked goods, come on. This is a YouTube channel. We're going to put peer pressure on my mom.
Jimmy Parent (43:15):
Yeah. Be the, be the Jimmy Hendrix. Right. The one coming out. It's like, I don't, I know there's everyone doing things this way. I feel like I have to do it this way. Yeah. And just do it.
Angie Colee (43:26):
And find the people that like the way you do it, instead of trying to tell you how you should do, it's like,
Jimmy Parent (43:32):
Oh, and the amazing part is, they'll find you.
Angie Colee (43:36):
I talked to her,
Jimmy Parent (43:38):
I don't get it. I mean, as marketers, we try and we try and engineer this process and we get it wrong every time, you know, the people who end up being our biggest fans and customers are the people we didn't expect to. There's no way we could've figured that out.
Angie Colee (43:54):
And then like, somehow people hear your name because of, you know, conversations that are happening in the background space at different. I, when I first went to work for a big name marketing guru and I ran his copywriting team, I would have people reach out to me that I had in my mind just met. And they're like, Oh yeah, I heard you're working for so-and-so. And I was like, how did you, this is the first time we're talking. Like, I don't even know who I am to me, the concept of somebody like knowing who I am before I've even met them is just like still totally foreign. Um, but I've had that same kind of evolution where it was. I started very buttoned down and, and what I thought a successful person should be. And every once in a while, when I let the veneer slip and I started ranting, which, you know, everybody loves the Angie rants.
Angie Colee (44:41):
Now I would get very fired up and passionate about something. And it's usually winds up with me, basically standing on a virtual chair and yelling at people. You can do the thing and very, very much being a cheerleader for people. And once I started seeing the reaction to my real self and my real reaction, that was when I got that aha moment of like, Oh, this feels good. This is my soul talking to someone else's soul. This is the realest real connection that you can have. You can't manufacture this shit by being fake. You just have to be who you are and talk to the people who like you, that you like talking to. That's important too. That's I don't have to talk to anybody. I don't like, that's the great thing about this and being in business.
Jimmy Parent (45:27):
Yeah. You know, what's weird is I was reflecting on this the other day. Um, I, out of the forties seven, I don't remember what the number was, but I remember the percentage, uh, 97% of the clients I worked with came by way of we'll call it referral either. They emailed me from my list. Like, I'm going to say my email list referred me. You know, I never made an offer for them to be a client. They reached out to me and there's this, I don't remember the name of this book. Um, Oh, it's called ageless marketing. I think it's like one of the hidden gems and persuasion and the, what this book postulates is that, Hey, uh, people don't buy features, benefit stuff. We, we know. Right. And there's a lot of hypothesis or even quasi theories out there of like what they do by, uh, but this is the one that felt the most true to me.
Jimmy Parent (46:26):
And that's what they're buying is values. Okay. And how do you put this way? They're, they're buying things because it aligns with their base behavioral values, like their superficial values, like their behaviors, the things that they do. Uh, and then their aspirational values who they want to be like, you know, and in other podcasts, you'll hear me talk about this, like the, the identity. Right. You know, they, they, they don't buy things that align with their current identity. They buy things because it aligns with the identity that they want to be like, you know, it's why poor people buy very expensive products, you know, plain and simple it's yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It, and of course it's a, it's a very, a social hierarchy, tribal thing going on there, you know,
Angie Colee (47:19):
When I got Money. I didn't want it anymore.
Jimmy Parent (47:22):
Yeah. It's a very, it's a very signaling thing, you know, but, but like the people that reach out to me and wanted to work with me, they're like, Hey, I, I heard you on this podcast. Or I love this email that you wrote where you talked about this thing. Uh, anyways, uh, do you want to do a thing and, and get like tens of thousands of dollars and I, and a whole lot of the times it was like, uh, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, because it doesn't align. I'm glad that that spoke to you, but what you're selling, doesn't speak to me at this point, but it's, it's like, I didn't have to do marketing. It's just, Hey, be you.
Angie Colee (47:58):
Exactly. That, that brings up two great points. And then I think we'll wrap it up because then I can keep going with you forever. But, uh, talk all night, we'll make the, what we're going to do. Like a part two, we're going to follow up on this. But the points that I heard were, you know, be you, what, because people like working with people that they like, and that reinforces their identity too. So be you. And when people make offers, you don't have to say, yes, that's the beauty of being your own boss and all of the risks that you took to get your business off the ground and all of the sacrifices that you made to bring this vision to life and the fears that you faced to build a business. I don't have to say yes to anything. I don't want to, that doesn't align with my values, that doesn't fit into my end goals because nobody is the boss of me, except me. Woohoo. Mike drop.
Jimmy Parent (48:54):
Yeah. You know what? I am a natural people pleaser. Okay. And so, and so I struggled for a long, long time with saying no. And I found out like, I just, I just have a hard time saying no. And so rather than trying to like go through head trash to figure it out, you know, I kind of found this, this fun little hack, if you will, where, Hey, how can I say no, but also look like a superhero at the same time, you know? And so when I'm talking to them, like, Hey, I'll admit, I'm not sure I'm the right person for this because I want to make sure you're set up, you know, to win, you know? So I have a few people in mind that might be a perfect fit for this. Would it be appropriate if I connected you with them? Or what would you like to do? And they're like, Oh yeah, that'd be cool.
Angie Colee (49:44):
That generous spirit again, helping people out, even if you can't work with them.
Jimmy Parent (49:48):
Yeah. And it's, and some of them I'm like, I just, this sounds boring, you know, or a lot of money. Right. It's like, you got to shell shelve that I have to compartmentalize that stuff. Cause I will, I will go for that. Thank you. Uh, childhood poverty. Right. So, and I will see, I'll see that. And it's like, Oh, okay. Put that into a box over here. It's like, I had money aside. If I had to do this for free, would I do it? No. Absolutely.
Angie Colee (50:15):
That's such a great point because I think a lot of that need to say yes, you know, barring personnel. Cause I had a hard time saying no to, I grew up in the South where you're polite, you never offend anybody. Bullshit. I'm here to Tell you it's bullshit. You can say no. And you can still be polite. And like you said, your example was perfect. There are ways to say no without people off. So no doesn't mean that you have to be mad or Stomp anything like that, but Oh yes.
Jimmy Parent (50:40):
Yeah. You don't have to pause.
Angie Colee (50:42):
You don't have to posture and you don't have to chase the money because there will be more opportunity. So just because this one's in front of you and it seems like a lot of money and it's very tempting and you want to say yes, if it, like you said, that's a great filter to put on it. Would I do this for free? If they weren't offering me a lot of money, if the answer is yes, then do it for a lot of money and be happy. Woohoo we're over there in that largely positive life column winning. If the answer to that is a hard, no, if nobody offered me money for this and they asked me to do it, I would say, go die in a fire. Uh, then maybe pass on that project and trust that the universe, if you keep putting yourself out there and you keep meeting people and being yourself and doing generous things and trying to grow, you grow your business, that other people will find you and offer you money because trust me, it works.
Jimmy Parent (51:31):
Yeah. I don't get it, but it does.
Angie Colee (51:33):
I don't get it either magic. All right, Jimmy, this has been fantastic. Like I said, we're definitely doing a part two. Uh, tell us a little bit about how to find you, how to stalk you, how to learn more about Jimmy.
Jimmy Parent (51:47):
Yeah. So I'm in my house. You can come here in my, in my office thing. Uh, yeah. So you could find me, uh, you can either go to Jimmy parent, uh, P a R E N t.com, uh, which will redirect to the main website, which is persuasion, scientist.com. Um, I made sure to get both domains because, uh, even I can't spell persuasion scientists, right. The first time, you know, so you'll find me there. You'll, you'll read a thing. Uh, and I'll, uh, I'll invite you to opt in, you know, so plug in your email, uh, hit the button, I'll send you a, uh, another thing and you'll see it. And you'll be like, ah, this guy had opened loops a whole lot. How's he doing it? And so, uh, you'll have a love, hate relationship with my emails. I can. That's about the only guarantee I'll make in life.
Angie Colee (52:38):
Yeah. Jimmy is very, very good at opening. Those loops as another marketing term for everybody, that's new to marketing where he, like, he gets you curious. It's like the HBO cliff hanger. Basically we do it in marketing too. So Jimmy's about to cliffhanger the fuck out of you, right?
Jimmy Parent (52:53):
Yeah. Jack Bauer just saved the president, but someone has his daughter. What happens now next season.
Angie Colee (53:02):
All right. Thank you so much for being on the show, Jimmy. I will talk to you soon.
Jimmy Parent (53:07):
All right. Love you. Bye.
Angie Colee (53:11):
So that is it another awesome episode of permission to kick on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and big, bold things, then head on over to permission to kick ass.com. That is all one word together, permission to kick ass.com, make sure to sign up for my email list so that, you know, whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called kick Mondays ass I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass