Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, Heming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today is my new friend Dan Nicholson. Say hi.
Dan Nicholson (00:37):
Hi, . How
Angie Colee (00:39):
Was up? Yeah, I think that was fantastic. Tell us a little bit more about what you do.
Dan Nicholson (00:43):
Well, uh, what I like to tell people is I'm a business person. Mm-hmm. , and, uh, I like to say that because it's like the Vegas thing possible so that people like, yeah. I usually get to like, cool, that was the Vegas thing possible. What do you actually do ?
Angie Colee (00:57):
Do they think you're in an M MLM or something?
Dan Nicholson (00:59):
? Right, right. Well, um, I do a couple of different things. Um, my first kind of full-time foray in, into a business is running a non, what I call a non-conventional accounting firm.
Angie Colee (01:12):
Hmm.
Dan Nicholson (01:12):
And, uh, this is why I start with business person, because if people hear accountant or accounting firm anything, they're like, oh, got it. So you're actually the most boring person in the room right now. So I'm like, I try to like ease into it and show a little bit of personality before the complete judgment is is formed. . Oh
Angie Colee (01:30):
Man.
Dan Nicholson (01:30):
But, uh, so I have what I call a non-conventional accounting firm, and then I have a couple businesses that are under this umbrella, umbrella, what I call financial certainty. So I have a certification called Certainty u and an app called the Certainty App. And, uh, all three of those businesses are, are in a way interrelated also.
Angie Colee (01:49):
Oh yeah. I think that, and you know, funnily enough, it's, I understand this kind of persistent myth that there are certain personality types and different industries mm-hmm. , but you're telling me about if you announce that you're an accountant, people make these assumptions about your personality. And I'm just thinking about all of the CPAs that I know, all of whom are ridiculously fun people. one of them, when I met, when I went to Santa Fe last year, she dragged me to a place called Meow Wolf. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's like crazy interactive art exhibit. And like we were sliding face first into an inter interdimensional dryer. It was bizarre and fun. . There's another guy who calls himself the heavy metal accountant who's usually up on chairs at conferences, dancing. I'm like, I, no, accountants are some of the most fun people I know. So y'all gotta get, y'all gotta get with it. Don't make these
Dan Nicholson (02:37):
Assumptions. You mean the one percenters,
Angie Colee (02:38):
Maybe , maybe those are the kinds that are gravitating toward my kind of intense personality too, that that could be a little bit of a underwear on fire with, with the folks that are a little bit more tame. . That's awesome. How did you get to where you are with accounting? I imagine you didn't start with the business in mind.
Dan Nicholson (02:55):
Yeah, a really roundabout way. So I was kind of a contradiction growing up. Maybe I still am of this like painfully, painfully shy kid with a speech problem. And that just made me even more shy, bad, bad teeth, you know, all, all the things. I got pretty good teeth now thanks to my parents, my braces, um, but also always was scheming on business ideas, mostly bad business ideas. And , I was running the numbers at like nine, this dates me too, running the numbers at nine of like, here's how much I think I could make on a paper route. Of course, no kids have paper routes now, but, uh, I was doing all sort of scheming around that. Fortunately, my parents told me I needed to be 13 before I could have a paper route. And , I called them on that. So always kind of scheming.
Dan Nicholson (03:48):
Uh, at the same point, kind of shy ended up, uh, first person my family go to college, ended up going thinking I was gonna be a marketing major cause I did mm-hmm. , uh, you're familiar with. Yeah. Yeah. So marketing thing. And I like found myself and all this new confidence. I'm like, I'm gonna do marketing, this is cool. And, um, at the end of my freshman year, I, I ended up getting this job at U P s, United Parcel Service, big shipping company. Mm-hmm. , uh, as a finance supervisor managing like 25 auditors. And there's a whole weird story on that. But that led me to, uh, ultimately get recruited at by the accounting department. And they sold me on this vision of all the cool things you can do in accounting and hey, look at all these Fortune 500 CEOs who also have accounting degrees and this is gonna be the best skillset for you to be an entrepreneur.
Dan Nicholson (04:42):
And I totally bought it into that narrative . And uh, and then they nominated me for this fellowship at the board that writes all the accounting standards in the US mm-hmm. and, uh, like first person in my family go to college, painfully shy kid. It's like, I can't turn away this, this opportunity. Uh, and so that put me on this whole path of being the guy who helped write an accounting standard. Uh, and kind of being miserable in my career for several years before I finally embraced, Hey, I'm pretty good at this accounting thing. It turns out and there's an opportunity to do something different in the c p A space. And so that's where I finally gave myself permission to just go full-time into being an entrepreneur.
Angie Colee (05:31):
Nicely done. I love that little segue too. Gave yourself permission. That's what we're all about here. Permission to Kick Ass. Um, I wrote down so many notes when you were just talking, because I find it funny how many people I've spoken to on the show who had those entrepreneurial tendencies early as kids. Mm-hmm. , I was just writing a story the other day about how I used to , I might date myself here too. Do you remember Highlights magazine?
Dan Nicholson (05:54):
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. In the back of I would Love the Dentist or something. Just because they had Highlight magazine or the
Angie Colee (05:59):
Oh yeah. Like spot the difference in all those crazy things.
Dan Nicholson (06:03):
Yeah. That was the best part about all those doctor's appointments is they had highlights in the waiting room.
Angie Colee (06:07):
Oh yeah. And in the back of one of those, I believe they had this, this ad for Olympia Sales Club. I remember the very nineties ad about, you know, write in and, and you can join Olympia Sales Club. And so I did door-to-door sales when I was like 10. Uh, and the prize I was after wasn't like a phone or a bike. I really wanted this cool clock radio so I could listen to the radio in my room. just like my own radio was the thing. And it was funny that I was like, I didn't even think about how that had manifested. Like, I want money. I'm going to join this sales club. I'm gonna go find a way to make money. And then later on in school I would be making key chains. I would bake with my mom, who's a pastry chef at home, and I would bring baked goods and sell them at school. And I don't even know what the profit margin on that stuff was cuz my mom bought all my supplies. But man, I felt rich with that $10 in my pocket. Oh
Dan Nicholson (06:57):
Yeah. Those are great profit margins actually. You get somebody else to pay for the expenses and you get to keep all the money. Perfect.
Angie Colee (07:02):
It's brilliant. Right? Couldn't we all just be kid business owners?
Dan Nicholson (07:06):
Yeah. My daughters pitched me these business ideas all the time, which I love, but they all involve me. Like, so you we're gonna like go to Joanne Fabrics and you're gonna buy all the stuff and or we're gonna go to the grocery store and like, you're gonna buy all this stuff, but then we're gonna sell it and it's gonna be awesome
Angie Colee (07:23):
And we're gonna keep all the money too, by the way.
Dan Nicholson (07:26):
. Yeah. My oldest daughter's pretty sweet and she's like, what's, we can donate 25%.
Angie Colee (07:33):
Oh, very, very generous. Very practical. I like that. Um, , it's an early entrepreneur. I'm glad you're, you're encouraging that with the kids too. That's just great to see. Um, and uh, I know that one of the things that you said that caught my attention too was like kind of falling into this career path, being recruited for it and then recognizing that you were feeling miserable and that there was an opportunity to do something different. Like that really stuck out to me, especially since so many people I work with get stuck on this idea of I can't go do that because hundreds of other people, dozens of other people are already doing the same thing. What's different about me? Like go make your own difference. Go be you. It's
Dan Nicholson (08:12):
Fine. I think it's a really unfortunate back to like creativity in my, my kids. You know, there's this whole process, formal education, and so much of society reinforces conforming mm-hmm. and lose creativity along, along the way. I'm not trying to make a broad move sweeping political statement here, but we all sort of have these things reinforced. I I, I went to a Jesuit school so I, I joke that I learned, I was educated in Catholic guilt, um, and uh, I got a degree in Catholic guilt. But, um, we kind of get this, uh, we lose our creativity oftentimes mm-hmm. and we just end up kind of feeling miserable because of it. And I think we're at this inflection point right now, especially with ai where distinction has never been more important.
Angie Colee (09:08):
Yes. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad that you brought that up too because I, you know, I work in the marketing industry and there are a lot of folks, particularly in copywriting and in graphic design who are freaking out about the engines now. The AI technology that can create all of these crazy graphics that can create all of the like, very long, very detailed sales, pe uh, uh, messages, sales pages in just a matter of minutes. And there are a lot of people that are freaking out about, oh my God, this is the end of copywriting. And I'm like, no, it's not. I mean, if you're mediocre and there's nothing that you can point to that is like unique, distinct, a special value that only you provide Yeah. You're probably in danger. You haven't done that differentiation work. Exactly like you said,
Dan Nicholson (09:53):
There's so many fields, copywriting, I'm not an expert necessarily in that space, but so many fields like that legal mm-hmm. whereas a human dining on copy paste on these LLC agreements for like 30 years . And we all kind of knew it, but we kind of had to accept those terms because we didn't have access to it. Yep. To some degree, the AI type stuff. It, it removes some of the fluff and now you actually, you have to be, you have to add in your distinction. Uh, I call playing your game. Mm-hmm. , uh, and uh, lean into your, your natural strengths. We spend so much time as humans focused on the things that are wrong with us. Mm-hmm. and I would make this whole argument to you about how we're wired to do that. I think there's a lot of neurosciences supports. Maybe you spend so much time like focused on what's wrong with us.
Angie Colee (10:47):
Oh, absolutely.
Dan Nicholson (10:48):
That prevents us from doing something extraordinary. When you study the people who've done things that are extraordinary, it's like they were kind of, they were weirdos before we called him eccentric. We just callem eccentric now. Mm-hmm. cause they're billionaires, , but they were, oh man, they were playing their game well before and that's what contributed to them getting the results that they have now.
Angie Colee (11:08):
Yeah. And to an extent I think they shook off the mantle or the pressure to conform. Exactly like you said. I know I was recording with someone earlier today named Lori and she talked, she kind of made an offhand comment on, I'm lazy and, and started laughing and I said, lazy. Nope, nope. We're gonna rant about this. Laziness is a superpower. I want to hire lazy people who get stuff done because they're gonna find the quickest, cheapest, like most efficient way to get something done so that they can go back to their natural state of being. I am embracing becoming a lazy entrepreneur so that I can just show up and do what I do as efficiently as possible and get back to life.
Dan Nicholson (11:46):
, there's so much power in taking a nap.
Angie Colee (11:50):
Yes. Naps are my favorites.
Dan Nicholson (11:53):
. It's just that if you're not sure what to do next, just go take a nap because you sitting and staring at the screen isn't necessarily getting you closer to what you want. Like you're better served than taking a, taking a break and coming back to it. Mm-hmm. , of course, hustle culture teaches us.
Angie Colee (12:13):
Yeah. And
Dan Nicholson (12:15):
I have this whole, uh, social media campaign right now, uh, that I just call it Dan versus social media . And you might appreciate this. So I bought this around like Black Friday of, uh, last pla the most recent Black Friday. I bought this package of like a year's worth of social media templates and I haven't been super active on social media up to, up to this point cuz I found a lot of this stuff was cliche. Mm-hmm. So anyways, I bought like so many, it's like 800 different templates now. You could post more than two a day. And I read through 'em and I cringe at so many of 'em cuz they're like, morning formula, you know, no one's gonna be successful unless you get up at 4:00 AM and then they're like, let's ignore all the evidence of all the people who get up at like 10:00 AM or night A are wildly successful. Yeah. But so what I do is I show the, what I consider to be painfully cliche thing that I got from this template mm-hmm. and then it, then it blows up like this little animation where that falls apart and then I show my rewritten version of it. Mm-hmm. it's like, you know, , it'll have like morning formula, I gotta get up at 4:00 AM and then you gotta do this at 6:00 AM and this is, and then that blows up and I just change it to like, it depends on each one of
Angie Colee (13:35):
Those. Yes. I had somebody once, uh, well, so you went through this process in booking to get on the show, but I only record on Wednesdays and we were actually talking about this right before I started recording that I record in batches several episodes a day. Mm-hmm. . And I did have one person who wanted to book into the show that like the next few Wednesdays wouldn't work. So they were like, could you do it like 9:00 AM on Wednesday or maybe a Tuesday or Thursday? And I was like, Nope. Tuesday, Thursday's out, Wednesday's recording day, we can book into the future if you need to find a Wednesday that works for you. That's totally good. Uh, and I don't record in the mornings unless I sound like a diva. Uh, at the risk of sounding like a diva. You don't want me to record at night in the morning either. I'm not, I'm not a pleasant person before I've had that coffee and a chance to unwind , we don't record in the morning for a reason, my friends.
Dan Nicholson (14:21):
Well you, you have to, again, I just come back to that. You have to play your game. You have to create that distinction. So now all of a sudden you're doing 9:00 AM Wednesday podcast and you're miserable. You're no longer showing up with the same distinction. And, and then we wonder why we don't get the results that we want. Like, cuz you're playing somebody else's game and there's so much evidence that supports that, that guarantees you. You just built a system that guarantees you won't get what you want.
Angie Colee (14:50):
Right. Because you've built it according to what works for somebody else. Like I, like I'm all for trying somebody else's method to see if it works for me, but I guarantee you, I am just not a 4:00 AM person. You're not gonna catch me at the gym at six o'clock in the morning. I enjoy my sleep way too much for that. Uh, and I remember when I first went out on my own, I had this kind of story in my head about I can't wait until I've gotten to that point where I can have the long leisurely morning routine, like two to three hours to just wake up, have coffee, not be in a rush to anywhere. Uh, and, and that's how I would like to start my day and one day on the road in 2021, it just hit me. I don't have a definition for one of what someday looks like, what that finish line looks like, what that checklist is that got me to the point of leisurely morning routine. So I'm never gonna get there because I haven't even bothered to find it. Two. Yeah. Do I actually need a checklist or could I just start now?
Dan Nicholson (15:50):
I have a lot of thoughts about what you just shared. Go for it. Which degree? What you just shared is what, uh, my book that I wrote recently called Rigging the Game is about Ooh. And uh, I have this whole certification I mentioned certain to you in the beginning. The whole whole certification program, uh, kind of comes back to this thing that I call this solvable problem. Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (16:11):
. So what do we do as entrepreneurs and not, not even just entrepreneurs, but we go to these, uh, we watch these TED talks or we go to these inspirational things like, hey say, oh, you gotta start with your why mm-hmm. , and that sounds really nice, although it turns out a lot of us don't know what our why is. And so we have more anxiety. That's a separate conversation. But so we put together our vision board and we got like the six pack picture of like someone with the six pack abs mm-hmm. , we got the nice home the second home, but maybe you got a picture of some TV character that represents like your idealized version of a good parent mm-hmm. now. And you got all these things and then you get all hopped up on dopamine and you're feeling pretty good and, uh, and so you're like, I'm gonna crush all this and uh, maybe get up early for the next few days and, and you check in with these folks two weeks later and you're like, Hey, how's that vision board going? Like Yeah, I haven't really made any progress. So, and this is the problem. It's not a solvable, it's not actually a solvable problem. Yeah. And this is what I mean by you have a bunch of things, but you don't have the, the vision board doesn't tell you here's how much I have in resources currently I'm money mm-hmm. , et cetera. Here's how much all this stuff costs and here's what I want to achieve it by. So how much more do I actually need to make?
Angie Colee (17:39):
Yeah.
Dan Nicholson (17:40):
Because the six pack abs, there's a cost to that mm-hmm. , whether that's I need to hire a trainer, I need to eat differently, that costs money. I need to hire a nutritionist. I or I just need two more hours a day of free time. Yeah. Because if I don't get two more hours of free time, I'm not gonna have the energy to be able to go to the gym. I'm always gonna choose something different. Mm-hmm. . Right. So there's actually, there's cost to each of these things, tangible and intangible. And so we need to take all those and turn it into a solvable problem. Yeah. So that we can actually measure how much more we need to make and then measure are our decisions actually getting us closer to that or further away.
Angie Colee (18:22):
I love that. That seems like such a practical step-by-step approach of bringing something down out of the clouds into the tangible. That's my big problem with vision boards and stuff like that too, is because it doesn't make the connection between me, Angie here with her feet on the ground mm-hmm. and Angie that's way up there in the clouds on, you know, Oprah's best seller list in in her book club. Yeah. But how do I get from here to there? I do. I don't have that picture. So I like that idea of breaking it down and, and especially considering the resources that are available to you because time and energy are also resources that you need to build your business.
Dan Nicholson (18:58):
Yep. 100%. Yeah. We have to, so I teach this orientation, so 180 and what I think the conventional orientation is being caught up by you, but by a lot of the, what I'll call charlatans in the mm-hmm. In the marketing space who are often prey on small business owners because we can be very exploitable mm-hmm. , right? You take so much scrutiny and ex, you have so much scrutiny from friends, family, there's expectations. Uh, and so, and then there's what you have on your whatever guilt and shame that you have internally. Right. And so you consequently you're, you can fall victim very quickly to the three steps that are gonna solve my entire, you know, world problem. And so when someone's telling me, just get up earlier, that's gonna solve everything. You're like, I'm in so much pain, I'm gonna buy that narrative.
Angie Colee (19:50):
Yeah.
Dan Nicholson (19:51):
And so what ends up happening is, is that business owners tell me, and I've worked with thousands of small business owners at this point in the finance space and then with our certainty business, they say, Hey, the reason why I started this business is because I want freedom. Right. Have you heard some version of that? People, and I want freedom. And they, they give different reasons of what freedom looks like to them, but it's, it's some version of like, I wanna define my own future. I wanna be able to work when I wanna work. I wanna be able to retire a spouse or my parents or whatever, do whatever I want to do. And then you look at the system that they build for themself and what it ends up being is they're putting in the most amount of effort mm-hmm. and they're taking on the most amount of risk.
Angie Colee (20:37):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (20:37):
And then the consequence of that is that they're left with no options.
Dan Nicholson (20:43):
Right. Because I've taken on so much risk and I'm already putting in so much effort this has to work. Right? Yep. And so then you're left with no options. And so then you built a system where you actually don't have freedom. Yeah. And so I tell people we gotta do the opposite. You can call it the George Costanza, you know, you can call, you can, you can uh, uh, the Charlie Munger when things, when the answer's not obvious invert and do the opposite mm-hmm. , they, and instead we need to reorient ourselves towards least amount of effort Yes. To give all the options. What's the least amount of effort to your point, pick someone who's lazy, quote unquote lazy. So like no, they look at all the options. They pick the one that gets the results with the least amount of effort, they have more resources. Mm-hmm. , they have more time, they have except least amount of risk. And the consequence of that is you have the most amount of options.
Angie Colee (21:37):
Yes.
Dan Nicholson (21:37):
That's, that reorientation to me is the framework to build upon to actually start doing something extraordinary. Which it to me is funding your solvable problem.
Angie Colee (21:49):
Oh yeah. Whatever
Dan Nicholson (21:50):
That may be.
Angie Colee (21:51):
Oh man. That's amazing. I can pick, I think that we're probably gonna be working together in the future too, cuz I have, uh, in my consulting, in my personal consulting outside of permission to Kick Ass, I talk to people about finding the low hanging fruit because if they've been in business for at least a year and they've been consistently creating content, they've got offers already. Mm-hmm. , all it's going to be is looking at what you have, who your people are, and what you can repurpose into an offer mm-hmm. . And often it's humming in and you know, maybe you have some strategic interviews with people or you look at reviews in case studies and you do a little data mining to see what people like mm-hmm. what they're getting value out of from you. And then you can kind of reverse engineer that into, well, hey, I'm working on a thing who's interested in this. And then you can get a, like a pre-order or a little mini flash sale going, you can get paid to create things. Yeah. And like, it doesn't have to be the hustle and grind yourself into an early grave saying that we've all been taught, especially as we're entering this age where information, and like you said, uniqueness, individuality are more important than ever. If you've got great information and a unique spin on it, that's a potential gold mine my friend. I'm just saying,
Dan Nicholson (23:04):
Uh, I love what you just shared and, uh, my language to be that's you just described, uh, rigging the game or what someone might also call engineering luck. Yeah. Like outsiders, like how does Angie keep doing this? It's like everything she touches just turns to gold and it's like, well it's keeping yourself in the game. Mm-hmm. . So, and, and, uh, recovering these resources that you have and reallocating them to, uh, uh, future products, more free time, whatever it is that you, you prefer mm-hmm. . And I see a lot of people, uh, who are very busy, uh, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.
Angie Colee (23:48):
Yes. Oh, that drives me nuts.
Dan Nicholson (23:51):
You're like, you have all these assets right here, , let's just use those , repurpose them or take a bit, you already have what you need. Mm-hmm. , that's a really hard concept that embarrassingly took me years. I had a therapist who kept telling me, Dan, when are you gonna realize you already have all the answers? Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (24:09):
Same. And I'm like, same.
Dan Nicholson (24:10):
That seems pretentious. . Like, I don't wanna be an arrogant person. Like I just assume I already have all the answers. He's like, you're not understanding me. Like he took hearing that many times over before I realized. Yeah. Every question I keep asking him is a preference.
Angie Colee (24:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (24:28):
Growing your business as a preference. Yep. Uh, there's so many questions that business owners are asking are actually preferences. And so it's like you actually do already have the answer because the answer is what do you want?
Angie Colee (24:40):
Mm-hmm. , I think that was the eye-opener about like, as, as people started to come to me for coaching and then I started on coaching and then I would run into that frustration if I have the answer, just follow my solution. But then that wasn't working. So I realized I needed to dig deeper into how to be a better coach. So the real eye-opener to me was that my job as a coach when I am coaching someone is to help them recognize that they've already got the answers and it's just been buried by a bunch of. Yeah. They're like, we just gotta go digging through your brain. Get rid out of all the messages and all the shoulda, woulda, coulda, and the guilt and the emotion and the outside noise. And find that thing in your gut that you've been wanting to do all along and give you permission to do that.
Dan Nicholson (25:23):
That's great. I hope people truly understand that. It's a, it's simple, but it's not easy.
Angie Colee (25:29):
No, not easy at all. And like when I've had coaches to do it to me, I've struggled mightily, so I totally get
Dan Nicholson (25:35):
It. Well there's so many coaches out there who just tell you to be someone that you're not mm-hmm. and that's the lion share of the coaches who are like, no, you just need to do, uh, Facebook lives every day for the rest of your life. That's the only way that you're gonna be successful. Let's ignore that. Basically every billionaire has never done a Facebook Live before, but the only way you're gonna be successful is by no one could be. And I'm not trying to knock people who like doing that. I'm just mm-hmm. , they're asking to become someone that you're not. Just be a
Angie Colee (26:06):
Better person than just be a better person.
Dan Nicholson (26:09):
Just do better. But actually a great coach, I'm fortunate to have had one, um, for a number of years now, and he says it's the diagnostic framework. His name's Randy Massengale. Uh, he used to be a senior advisor to people like Bill Gates. Uh Oh, wow. Um, and his whole thing is you have to meet each person at their individual point of need
Angie Colee (26:31):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (26:32):
. And that's very difficult to do because you want to insert your own
Angie Colee (26:36):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (26:36):
agenda. But truly meeting them in your, your indivi their individual point of need and helping them play their game. I mean, that's what he did for me. Like Yeah. The reason why you're not getting the results you want is because you're playing somebody else's game. And that always ends in you being miserable because you can't sustain it.
Angie Colee (26:58):
Yeah.
Dan Nicholson (26:59):
So stop it.
Angie Colee (27:00):
You don't know the rules of the game because you're not in that person's shoes. You don't have the entirety of the context that they have. So like, invent your own. It's totally cool to make it, it's totally cool to wake up one day and be like, I wonder if I could build a business where I only worked like Tim Ferriss four hours a week. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it going to take some effort and some resources and maybe even some hustle to get there? Absolutely. But if you know where you're going, you can find a way to get there,
Dan Nicholson (27:31):
I think. Yeah. I think that totally align with what you just shared. I think there's um, I think language is really important and we get ourselves in these traps sometime where we think, I just really want to passive business. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (27:44):
,
Dan Nicholson (27:45):
What you actually want is a reliable business. Yes. Those are different. So the only way you can work four hours a week and make what you want is if it's reliable.
Angie Colee (27:54):
Mm-hmm. , if you it
Dan Nicholson (27:57):
Work, it's, it can be more passive. But Yeah. If you're starting with, I don't wanna have to do stuff.
Angie Colee (28:02):
Yeah. That's not a way to build a business
Dan Nicholson (28:05):
. It's like, Hey, you know, here's my business plan. I don't want to do stuff like Yeah. cool. Like I totally get it. I don't wanna do stuff either, but , if
Angie Colee (28:14):
None of us do.
Dan Nicholson (28:15):
Yeah. It has to be reliable.
Angie Colee (28:18):
Yeah. I lo I love that distinction too because, uh, I know that a lot of small businesses in particular, you know, going back to what you said about feeling the pain and you know, being taken advantage of, sometimes they feel like one thing will solve all their problems. Passive income will solve all my problems. Mm-hmm. . Well, it's never passive. It's always active in some sense of the word. Even if you've got everything automated, somebody needs to be watching the automations in case they break. As you and I are recording today, thrive Cart was down for several hours and some of my friends were freaking out. Cuz nobody could buy anything. Nobody could access the courses they were paying for. It's never passive. But I always u I started joking recently with a girlfriend of mine. You know, what's my vision for my future? Angie's vision for the future is I want to own businesses, other people run. I want to invest in new businesses and give people runway and bandwidth to start mm-hmm. . But that's where I'm going ultimately with my business to own businesses. Other people run for me. That's how I think I'm going to get to minimal hours a week. But that's just me.
Dan Nicholson (29:21):
Well that's a totally different framework than starting from I just want people to pay me money while I don't do anything. Yeah. . Right. That might ultimately be the outcome, but the nuance is totally different because you're like, you're starting, I need to acquire these businesses mm-hmm. processes and systems in place, and I'm gonna give them runway. And then ultimately the consequence of that is that I'm gonna get income with having to do very little.
Angie Colee (29:50):
Yeah. And a whole lot of work has to go into that beforehand. I'm glad that you brought that up because I think, um, the idea of that used to wig me out because that's just not anything I ever grew up with. Any context around like owning a business that somebody else ran. I come from a very blue collar background. Both my parents were truck drivers. Um, and my mom became a pastry chef later on. It was kind of a weird transition, but like, I've never known anybody that owned a business. I
Dan Nicholson (30:16):
Thought the typical transition, but no,
Angie Colee (30:20):
That's a whole long story I'll have to tell another day. Um, but yeah, it's like I just didn't have any frame of reference for that. So the first time I heard myself admit I'd like to own businesses that other people run, uh, I was immediately overcome with terror. How the hell would I do that? Like, I don't even know where to begin to do that. But the beauty of, you know, just taking steps forward toward that is that I've come into contact with individuals who are experts in their own field that I already have in mind for, okay, someday when I'm ready to invest this kind of capital, I'm calling this person for legal structured advice. I'm calling this person for financial advice. I'm call like, I'm gonna put together my team who's gonna help me make sure that I don't step in it if at all possible.
Dan Nicholson (31:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Makes, yeah, that makes sense. I, I think that we're kind of raised in this idea that the way that we make money is through effort.
Angie Colee (31:12):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (31:14):
And there's a, there's a, there's an assumption, a pretty significant assumption that business owners make, which is over time, I'm just gonna make more mm-hmm. , they don't say it explicitly, but it's their actions and behaviors and everything. Like in other words, it's, it is, it is as if cash flow just comes in because I keep working at it.
Angie Colee (31:35):
Yeah.
Dan Nicholson (31:36):
Right. And so that understanding, if your, if your mental model is, must put in effort, maximum effort to make money, then you have a really hard time understanding how really what you should be making money off of is the value that you contributed. Yes. And those are not necessarily correlated. Mm-hmm. , that makes sense. Like you could have put in very little effort time, but the value contributed is tremendous and therefore you should be compensated accordingly. Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of folks end up in 50 50 partnerships. I advise everyone, you're either, either I either want 70% or more, or 30% or less. I wanna make it really clear what the intentions are because when we're 50 50, there's an assumption that I'm always gonna be contributing. Mm-hmm. my 50%. Oh. And so we're watching each other's time. Oh I'm, how much time are you putting in? How much time am I putting in? Mm-hmm. . No, it's, it's value. Value.
Angie Colee (32:39):
Yes. Absolutely. And I think like especially in this information age, I am on a mission to just like squash this notion that time is the value that you deliver. Time is invaluable. Like it's priceless. It's the non-renewable resource that you have. You only have so much of it. So like mm-hmm. , at the end of the day, all of us have 24 hours. And if you're spending all of it thinking that if I wanna work more, I'll just add more hours, you're gonna run outta hours my friend,
Dan Nicholson (33:10):
You're gonna run outta hours. Yeah. Yeah.
Angie Colee (33:13):
So what else can you create? What else can you do that brings in more value? And I know this is a hard one to wrap your brain around and I know because I struggled to really understand that too. Like I said, having grown up in a blue collar family and know you just work hard and you earn more and maybe you get a raise or maybe you get a bonus and that's how you earn more. But then when I understood the value of creating something that could be sold many times an asset, in other words creating an asset versus just trading time for dollars, that was when my perspective changed. It was actually with an email sequence that was, uh, an autoresponder. And so you create it once you program it to deploy again and again and again. And it makes sales on autopilot. And I know that's like high level marketers speak that promises people the sun, moon and stars. But if you do a well thought out autoresponder, it can be mm-hmm. just set it and forget it with of course people monitoring the tech as we already discussed
Dan Nicholson (34:07):
. Sure, yep. There's system failure that happens from time to time. Yeah.
Angie Colee (34:11):
Yeah. Absolutely. But like, if, if we consider ourselves to be in the business of creating assets versus selling our time for money, then I think that changes the name of the game right there.
Dan Nicholson (34:21):
There's a quote that I like from this guy, um, w Edwards Deming. And he says, every system is perfectly designed for the results it gets mm-hmm. you're afraid roughly. Uh, in, in other words, if you don't like the results, you can be a victim and just be mad about it. That's one option. You could try to change the system or you could change your behavior.
Angie Colee (34:43):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (34:44):
And I think about that quote a lot as I look at my businesses and our, our, our behaviors. But most of us have designed a system not explicitly or consciously necessarily, but the guarantees that we're gonna have to work 60, 70 hours a week. And many of us have designed a system where we are going to guarantee that we're working until we're like 65.
Angie Colee (35:09):
Mm-hmm. ,
Dan Nicholson (35:11):
I'll have folks in our CPA business where the, their tax planning up to that point has just been some version of, I just put the maximum amount into the 401k mm-hmm. . And that's cool that that's us strategy. I tell them, well let's, let's just think about this for a second. So you're, let's just make up an age. You're 35 and you're telling me that you don't want to have to work when you're 45. Mm-hmm. doesn't mean you won't work, but you want the option to. Yeah. Some people call that FU money, other people call that financial freedom, whatever. Right. You don't wanna have to work. And so what you're doing is to get, to make that happen is every year you're putting in, cause you're doing profit share all this $50,000 into a 401k, you're like, yep, that's exactly what I'm doing. Okay. So when can you take that money outta your 401k? Well, not until I'm 65. Mm-hmm. unless I wanna pay penalties. Okay. But you just told me that your objective is to have financial freedom when you're 45
Angie Colee (36:14):
Mm-hmm. .
Dan Nicholson (36:16):
So you're tying up all your excess resources first into a 401k that actually got you further away from your objective of having financial freedom. Mm-hmm. at 45. Like Huh, I hadn't thought about it that way. Like, we gotta kind of reason through these things and, and this is where I come back to solvable problem
Angie Colee (36:37):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (36:37):
For clients and go truly, what are you optimizing towards?
Angie Colee (36:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (36:41):
, if let's do all these other strategies, 401K might be the last thing just because you have excess, still have excess resources and that's like legacy. Mm-hmm. , that's money I'm gonna give to my grandkids. So I don't really need it ever, you know, ever. So I can wait until I'm 65 before I can access it. But we designed these systems that guarantee that we're gonna have to keep working.
Angie Colee (37:07):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (37:08):
If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would come up with some narrative about it. 401ks were created because it causes people to put their money aside so they have to keep working until they're 65. I'm not saying that that's the case, but you know, someone might suggest that I'm not actually, I'm not a conspiracy theorist
Angie Colee (37:25):
Necessarily. That's, well, it's not outside the realm of possibility, especially when you consider the modern American education system was built for folks that were gonna go to work in factories that were gonna grow up and get a nice pension in a nice retirement. And the entire world has shifted and tilted and all of that stability has gone away and new industries have risen, old industries have died and and so on. And so it goes. So I, you know, well that's, that's probably a rant. Best save for another day. But like, I wish the American education system was focused on problem solving and communication and other life skills. Because I think of entrepreneurship as just getting really good at both communication and solving problems. Cuz I'm gonna be solving problems until the day I die. Even with the business that I've created for myself that has a lot of ease built in, has those long, luxurious mornings that I've always wanted built in, has that laziness built in that I love. Yeah. But it's still solving problems on a daily basis. So at least those are problems I want to solve now.
Dan Nicholson (38:26):
I mean, we could definitely rant on what you just talked about if you want to go down that. Right. Because I also have a lot of, I have a lot of thoughts on that and kind of personal, personal ran anecdote, , uh, let's, let's, uh, let's rant away. Um, just like, this is somewhat of an anecdote. About four years ago I got this ocular migraine, my eye started twitching for, it wasn't like a migraine person before. And uh, was kind of freaking out about it at the same time my skin was kind of itchy and I was having stomach issues. I'm like, what, what is going on? Like yeah. Uh, do I have some sort of serious illness or something? So I go to my primary care doctor and uh, he's like, okay. And I'm the time of male, well still male, but 37 , uh, uh, 37 years old male white guy.
Dan Nicholson (39:25):
And he is like, okay, you know, uh, have you thought about relaxing? And I was like, huh. You know, yeah. I thought about relaxing. Gee, thanks doc. And uh, that was his sort of recommendation for the, for the migraine and the stomach stuff. It's like, yeah. You know, it probably has some anxiety issue. Like you just, you know, this is what a 37 year old male with business and some couple kids like on average this would be the problem. So we're gonna start there. And, you know, for the itchy skin, have you thought about lotion, ? I was like, I've thought about lotion. My wife has suggested lotion. We own lotion. I have, I've applied the lotion. I'm still itchy. I've also, it has put the lotion on its skin. Yes. I've lived in this body for 37 years and I'm telling you, this has not been my normal experience.
Dan Nicholson (40:18):
This is different. Mm-hmm. , it's like, well, you know, think about relaxing. Um, go see the eye doctor, um, and lotion and check in with me mm-hmm. and I was just left cold by that. Yeah. But it made sense because it's just, uh, personal in, uh, group indexing. Mm-hmm. , he looked at me through this, let's, let's stratify you into these buckets and this is what an average person at this age would have. Mm-hmm. . And so we gave you that diagnosis and you're on your way. Now I couldn't accept that, partly because I obsess about things . Um, and I'm like, this doesn't make any sense to me. So I went down this whole rabbit hole and it turned out that I, uh, was uh, somewhat allergic to blue number two dye. And if you look at a lot of the men's healthcare products, you know, the deodorant, the Old Spice deodorant, like it's got the blue stripe in it cuz blue means fresh.
Dan Nicholson (41:19):
So I'm putting something fresh in my armpits and you look at the, you know, men's, uh, body wash, like Old Spice, a lot of 'em are just a blue gel. Mm-hmm. . Cause we're men and we want blue gels and we're clean now. Right? Yes. So I was actually bathing in something that I, so the reason why I was so itchy was cause I had this food into like these intolerances to that mm-hmm. product. Maybe it took a while to build up whatever. So I stopped doing that and I stopped being so itchy all the time. And then, um, it turned out that like the, uh, part of my sinus passage was sort of narrow. Hmm. And, uh, you can do this procedure where they expanded with like a balloon and it's pretty non-invasive. And all of a sudden my eye twitch and pressure sinus headaches and everything went away and stomach thing was a kind of another thing. But I kind of went down this rabbit hole and it was like, you know, uh, this whole group indexing thing is a real problem.
Angie Colee (42:22):
. Yep.
Dan Nicholson (42:23):
Um, so sort of, you know, taking, taking it that anecdote, uh, kind of full circle back to like the, the conversation that we were having. Um, to me that is sort of the, this, this big problem that we have where we're just very quick to bucket. Mm-hmm. do this, this, this, here's the problem onto the next. And we're not really meeting people again at their individual point of need and looking for that distinction and really understanding, you know, who they are, what's going on mm-hmm. , et cetera. So I, that's like a mental model now I use for folks where I'm like, okay, are you gonna, are you personal indexing or you're looking at the individual or are you group ex indexing and you're just making a bunch of assumptions based off like two or three data points?
Angie Colee (43:13):
Yeah. Oh, I love that distinction too. And good on you for advocating for yourself. Cuz I think, you know, it's, it's become very much the norm of, of accepting that this person knows more than me. They have this much more experience. So I guess I must have gotten it wrong. I think there's a certain value in following your gut. Even if you find out that in the end you were wrong, there's value in pursuing that and finding out if there's merit to your concerns. I'm the same. Like, I won't even go to a doctor unless it's something that I've never encountered before that I'm freaked out about. So I will lay down the law with a doctor if they tell me, well this is just a, do you know what it took to get me here ? Right. If I think it's serious, I think you should be taking it seriously. Otherwise I'd be a country girl at home cutting open a, a sore and drain and it myself. Like that's just what we do where I grew up. Um, that's true. So yeah. Like, and we're glad you caught the allergy too because those things can like randomly Right. Turn into something way more serious, so. Totally.
Dan Nicholson (44:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
Angie Colee (44:12):
I like that's group indexing versus individual indexing. I'm very passionate about that. Like meet people where they are because I think it's a lot easier than we assume it is as business owners. Especially if we are in any kind of industry where we teach one to many. Right. Right. It's a lot easier to actually just take five to 10 minutes here and there to meet someone where they're at and show them, yeah, this is where you are, here are the tools, here's a tool that you could try. If that doesn't work, we could try something else. But like to bring it back neatly to what you talked about earlier with the one solution, there's no one thing that's gonna solve all your problems. So like, let's just keep trying things Right. Until we get there.
Dan Nicholson (44:51):
Oh yeah. And the whole education system, I think that's what you were commenting on kinda started me on that rant. , it's all based off group indexing, right? Yeah. We got a bunch of kids, they're in third grade. Okay. What is a third grader supposed to know? Okay. These couple of things we gotta teach to the group mm-hmm. and in teaching to the group, uh, we don't have the time or the resources to meet with each person individually and help them learn how to problem solve and mm-hmm. teach them about cognitive reasoning skills.
Angie Colee (45:24):
Yep.
Dan Nicholson (45:25):
Not just, you know, the distributed property. Now I think the distributed property is cool, like I want my third grader to know that mm-hmm. , but at the same point what I really wanted to know is to be able to reason on her own and, and, uh, be able to solve problems.
New Speaker (45:42):
-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (45:44):
Because, uh, the guess AI can do the distributor property now . Yeah. Good to know. But back to the distinction, it becomes problematic if you can't
Angie Colee (45:55):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (45:56):
figure out these problems.
Angie Colee (45:58):
Oh yeah. It was, it was funny. I, I feel like I made this joke recently with somebody because, uh, we had those fancy graphing calculators when I was in school doing math. Oh
Dan Nicholson (46:07):
Yeah. The t i b two or T
Angie Colee (46:09):
83.
Dan Nicholson (46:11):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (46:12):
The ones that we basically made a compe like early computer games on and, and goofed off in class. Yeah. Uh, that's, they always, those teachers used to tell us pay attention, show your work. You're not going to have a calculator in your pocket when you grow up. Uh, I beg to differ. Yeah. Tell that to my smartphone. I have a calculator in the,
Dan Nicholson (46:31):
What did those teachers know? Anyway,
Angie Colee (46:33):
, well it's, it's helpful to know these things, but like the root behind the problem solving, I think the, the way of thinking is more important to me than the actual precise mathematics. You may disagree with me since I know that you have a lot of numbers in math in your profession.
Dan Nicholson (46:48):
, well, there's a whole, in the accounting space, there's a whole thing about rules versus principles. Hmm. And the accounting world moved to principle-based accounting 20 years ago or so. Mm-hmm. , in other words, we can't write all the rules to cover every single situation. So we have to more give a way of thinking
Angie Colee (47:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dan Nicholson (47:12):
And that does create gray areas, but there were gray areas when there were explicit rules too. Yeah. . So there's gray areas either way. Uh, so let's focus more on the, the way of thinking through and the, the, the principles as opposed to just trying to, to be so prescriptive.
Angie Colee (47:30):
Mm-hmm. . I think that's such a good summary for basically the entire conversation that we've had. Like business is a way of thinking mm-hmm. and all it is, is really just learning how to think differently from the frame of reference that most of us have, which is employee. So if you feel, if you're listening and you feel like you're struggling and you're just never getting, it might just be the way of thinking needs to shift mm-hmm. and you haven't yet met that person who can meet you where you're at and show you, ah, here's the little bit that helps it click into place and makes that vision a little bit more clear. And then I start to understand it a little bit more. But it's coming. Stick with it. It's coming.
Dan Nicholson (48:07):
I think that was perfectly set. I don't think I could say it better than that.
Angie Colee (48:12):
. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm just now noticing the picture over your shoulder of Ron Swanson, which of course they can't see this video, but I'm getting great about it. don't half-ass one thing or don't don't half-ass two things. Whole one thing. That's, that's a good
Dan Nicholson (48:27):
Quote. That is a great run. Uh, uh, Swanson and there's so many more, there's so many great ones from that character. Maybe one of the, it's gotta be top five best TV characters in all time.
Angie Colee (48:38):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So tell us a little bit more where we can find out about you. I'm gonna make sure they have clickable links in the show notes and everything, but I wanna hear it from you.
Dan Nicholson (48:47):
Yeah. Um, certainty tools.com is probably the best sort of jumping off point that has, uh, some articles and things that I'm writing that has links to my podcast, my book, other businesses, all that certainty tools.com is probably the best place.
Angie Colee (49:03):
Awesome. This has been a fa this wasn't anything like I expected and it has been so wonderful. I hope you've had a great time because I've loved having you on the show.
Dan Nicholson (49:12):
Well, it's not every day that you meet a business person. So ,
Angie Colee (49:18):
That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you could do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcast Spotify and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go Kick Ass some.