Brittany McBean (00:00):
Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. And welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass with me today is my friend Brittany McBean. Say hi. You have to go like
Brittany McBean (00:39):
A bunch of octaves, right?
Angie Colee (00:40):
. Let's, okay. So for full context, I have this pre-flight checklist that I run everybody through. I tell them what the intro and outro situation is going to be, and we were talking about how awkward that can be sometimes, where it's just like, hi, say hi, we're gonna jump in. And so the joke here was like, I have to go up six octaves, and like, I think you went so high. I didn't even hear it on my end. I don't .
Brittany McBean (01:03):
I feel like the intro is just like, by nature you have to put on a different character. Yeah. Right? It's like, yeah, Britney. And then like five seconds later you're like, this. Right? And you just turn into like the salty old sailor at the bar
Angie Colee (01:17):
. Yes. Salty sailor time.
Brittany McBean (01:20):
It's like white millennial cheerleader to salty sailor in like 30 seconds.
Angie Colee (01:24):
Oh yes. See, this is my favorite, like the least favorite podcast I have ever been on, at least as a guest, is the one where I have to sit there and like, wait quietly while someone reads a laundry list of all of the achievements I've ever made in my life. Not that I'm not proud of those achievements, but just like sitting there waiting for it to be read out is kinda like, can we just talk? I want to talk .
Brittany McBean (01:43):
I mean, if you wanna hear a bio, just go to my website. .
Angie Colee (01:46):
Yeah. Is that, it's gonna be in the show notes. Folks. Just go to the show notes. You're already listening. Let
Brittany McBean (01:52):
Scroll down
Angie Colee (01:53):
To this on the page with the show notes. So if they haven't read the show notes, tell us a little bit about what you do.
Brittany McBean (02:00):
So, hi, I am Brittany .
Angie Colee (02:03):
. You heard it that time. It came down several .
Brittany McBean (02:07):
Heard it there. It's um, I mean the, the boring version is a copywriter, launch strategist. I run a micro agency. And so I write for clients, strategize launches, run those fun big, uh, launch projects. And, uh, the other side of the business is I mentor copywriters as a business strategist, um, specifically copywriters who are trying to kind of get out of that beginner and growth stage, um, and build that premium copywriting business that really functions on streamline systems and provides a really high end and high touch experience for their clients. Um, and are trying to build a business that is bigger than themselves that doesn't involve them being in it 24 7.
Angie Colee (02:48):
Ooh, I love that. Both very important missions. And it was funny, I was writing down notes and micro agency really caught my attention. Will you tell me a little bit more about that?
Brittany McBean (02:59):
Oh, that's just something everybody says that I started saying. 'cause everybody else says it. .
Angie Colee (03:02):
Oh, that's the first time I've heard it. Legit . No,
Brittany McBean (03:05):
I, I, I think what it means. No, I'm just kidding. So this was, it was a term I heard like three years ago. I was like, I, I think that's what I do. And, and it has been confirmed. This is what I do functionally. It's me and another writer, so mm-hmm. rather than like having this big agency and we're just like scaling all this client work. I can do more work than, than just what I could do on my own because I have a full-time writer. So I am the chief strategist and the copy chief and the c e o of my business, and I have a full-time writer working in my business. So the two of us together are doing the client side of the business, but as a c e O of my business, I also have this education side and then also a team and mm-hmm.
Brittany McBean (03:48):
content, which, when I say content, I'm, I don't do like social media, I just, I can't, but I do do YouTube because I do care about educated mm-hmm. education and, and giving some good accessible free education and all of that. Um, so when I say micro agency, I am working with another writer, um, to accomplish the client side of the business, but I'm still doing all of like the client facing meetings and all of the strategy. Um, and I'm still very, very, very deep in that work. Mm-hmm. , and it still does take up a large part of my time. Um, so it's not that agency model where I have all of those writers working underneath me and, and we're just like churning out work, which is, that can be an excellent model. Yes. Um, and usually involves a lot of people with a lot of different skillsets and are usually doing like a wide range of, of different, um, activities and we're just mm-hmm. writing copy and just doing strategy for those funnels and those launches. So micro agency means they're really tiny and, and my hands are still very, very much in the pot and my clients are really hiring me for, for me, and they're not losing me when they work with us.
Angie Colee (04:53):
That's really awesome. Yeah. I have a lot of crossover. Similar experience. I worked at a slightly larger agency for my friend Chris Zarkowski. Yeah. Um, but I was the copy chief and account manager. So like I was the one that went to the meetings and kind of, I considered myself to be the buffer, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. , like I am the layer of insulation between the clients and the writers. And the writers would be on some of the meetings to be able to ask questions, but like, when it came to getting feedback, that was me and the clients so that I can translate a little bit and I can reassure the clients if they're feeling a little bit of a way about giving feedback, which is uncomfortable to a lot of people. Um, so I thought that was interesting. And I, I know another interesting thing that you said was you were like, content.
Angie Colee (05:34):
I don't really do content, but I do YouTube content. But I think it's really great to talk about something like that because there is that pressure out there to be a cons, a content producing machine. We gotta be on every channel. We gotta be on every social profile. Mm-hmm. . And you're like, YouTube is where I like to be. Guess what guys? You're listening to a podcast. Podcast is where I like to be. 'cause I like to talk and I don't like to make videos and things like that. Mm-hmm. . So when you talk about putting content out there, you get to show up the way that you like to show up. For me, it's firing up a Zoom room and having a conversation with somebody that's incredibly fun. Like Brittany, for Brittany, it's firing up a video camera and creating some content. Like put it out there the way you like to put it out there. Resist the pressure to do what everybody says you, you should do. That's all I'm saying, .
Brittany McBean (06:18):
Well, and and you have to know why, like why the you're creating content. Yes. And it's not like, like content for content's sake is, is just crazy talk like what? Yeah. I, the only, I have no marketing budget or really mm-hmm. like time set aside in my business for the client side of my business. And I have never gotten a client from social media and I've never gotten a client from my email list once, not ever. And, and I know that that is just my business, but I also teach other copywriters. And this is a model that has proven to be accurate in other businesses that are trying to scale, like at a, at a certain level or, or trying to, not even, not even trying to scale, but trying to reach a certain type of client. Because what I have found is that when you are at working at an entry level with entry level clients, and entry level's not a bad word because all of us have to enter somewhere. Like that is a, that sounds so all
Angie Colee (07:15):
Of us started at zero. Even people born into money families Yeah. . Yeah.
Brittany McBean (07:19):
Yes. Like, like you have to start somewhere. Right? And so you, and you have to start with clients who are starting somewhere, and like, when you're doing content and you're adding value and you're like teaching stuff, you're giving away for free. Mm-hmm. . And the people who need d i y options are usually the people with lower budgets and are looking to save time and money. Like those are gonna be your first few clients. Right. But like, my packages start at $25,000. Mm-hmm. , the clients don't have $25,000 to spend, like, number one, I'm not going to be selling that to them. They are not, they don't come in with not $25,000 and I'm convincing them to spend 20, they're coming in with a $25,000 budget. Yes. Like, I'm not convincing them to have that money. Right. And number two, like they're not searching reels to find their copywriter, right? Yes. And like, they're not signing up for a freebie to find their copywriter. So like that is not a good use of my time. That is a scalable audience. And scalable audiences are for scalable offers. Like this is mm-hmm. , I could stand on the soapbox all day long. Right. So like, I have numbers.
Angie Colee (08:12):
We love soapbox here.
Brittany McBean (08:13):
I love, I love, I have so many of them, like I have a warehouse full of them , so that, so like my Instagram was a ghost town for so long, because like, that's not, that's not where I need to go for client work. And, and I need eight to 10 clients a year to make $200,000 on client work. And I know that sounds very like, oh, here, but like that it took a lot to get there, right? Yeah. But like, I, I don't, I don't need to scale to get 10 clients a year. Mm-hmm. , but then I started an education side of my business. And you, when you have scalable offers, you do need a scalable audience and negotiate. Now I need content and now I need a scale, and now I need to grab my email list. But I also really, really, really care about like, actually teaching good information.
Brittany McBean (08:58):
And, and more than that, like I get angry when I see other people teaching bad information. I'm like, I'm smarter. I know better. That's not what really is going on. Whatever. Yep. So I was like, all right, well why don't I like get on YouTube and just say what I know or what I'm seeing in the industry or what's really going on and it'll be free and it'll be accessible and it won't be like beginner level content and all of that. So mm-hmm. , everything has its place, you know, and if you're like scaling an audience for a scalable offer, then go where those people are and grow your list and do your thing. But it, it just depends. It depends what you're doing. And for Yes, my clients and for my students who are trying to grow a copywriting business that only means five or 10 clients a year to make the six figures they want to make that dancing on wheels may not make sense. Yeah. And it might, if you're trying to scale an offer and you need a scalable audience mm-hmm. , or you can do paid ads or you can do like whatever, it just to, I
Angie Colee (09:48):
Love this. I sense what I, I'm hearing and I'm gonna advise everybody to do is righteous indignation as a content strategy . I could do that. I could do that better. I've got better information. , I'm
Brittany McBean (09:59):
Just a business strategy or just like a life strategy. Just take That's true. Just take a strategy.
Angie Colee (10:03):
The contrarian, like no, no. That I think was the first thing that made me pitch an article. Even though I didn't think that I could get like, publicity, I didn't think that I could get into entrepreneur or any of the big name things mm-hmm. . But I read an article one day where I was like, this is just the stupidest thing, and that this is judgy Angie coming out. But I was like, this is the stupidest article, and they got it in entrepreneur, and you know what, the difference between them and me is they pitched it and I didn't, and my content is so much better. So this is like proof positive that I need to be out there pitching things. Mm-hmm. ,
Brittany McBean (10:35):
Uh, honestly, like the biggest difference between like you and the people doing the you wanna be doing is they thought they could do it. Yeah. Like they have this unearned, undeserved like white male dad confidence , like, go out with your like white dad energy and do. Just do it. Like,
Angie Colee (10:52):
Just do. That's the way to do it. And I like, I love that you brought up the people who are at certain levels with certain income and what they can and can't spend. Like, that level of awareness is very imperative to becoming successful in your business. And I know that for a long time, my soft spot was folks that are early in growth stage, folks that don't have a lot of money, folks that are bootstrapping, but I got caught in that trap that a lot of folks do, which is I wanna help them so much that I'm sacrificing my own income because they can't afford to work with me. And so this podcast was part because I wanted this show. I needed this show when I was coming up. I needed to hear real stories and real from entrepreneurs and not the Polish polished, you know, I can do no wrong stuff that was coming off stage, that was the message that I got when I was cutting my teeth. But I needed this show and I also needed a way to be able to give back. And like I, now I've got hours of content and lessons that I never even anticipated teaching on my own. That came out of great conversations. I've learned so much from the guests. So like you can create content that's, uh, a little bit self-serving and helps the people that you wanna help.
Brittany McBean (11:58):
Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (11:59):
. Fantastic.
Brittany McBean (12:01):
Well, I mean the, the reality is like you can, you can choose whatever aligns with you, but like if you, if you choose to stay at a smaller level of, of pricing, let's say mm-hmm. , like we will just keep it pricing. We don't need to like, doesn't need to be like morally right or wrong, right? Yeah. Like it can just be value neutral, but like a small level of pricing. Well, like, you have to do more work to make the same amount of money mm-hmm. . And so like, and inflation isn't going anywhere. That's not gonna stop. So if you don't wanna raise your prices or you don't wanna, like, whatever that thing is, you have to do more work. Like, do you have that time? And if, if you don't have that time where you're, right? Or like, yes, , you're burnt out, you're exhausted.
Brittany McBean (12:44):
But like if you are able to raise your prices, if you are able to make more money, if you are able to work with someone at a higher level, well now you have more options. Options like open access, like now you have options to pay people mm-hmm. , that actually gives people more opportunities and like that is more of service. Not that you're like giving someone a handout, but like, you can hire someone, you can, you can literally like put your resources into someone else's family. Yes. You can donate money, you can give back to communities. Like we don't do client gifts. We donate a portion of every client project to a charity of our client's choosing like, we donate thousands every single year. Like we, like I get to pay my team. I have never missed payroll. That, that's really, really exciting to me.
Brittany McBean (13:26):
And I also now have time because I'm not pumping out these like dollars, you know, per hour. I have time to do YouTube content and I'm not doing the beginner level that I'm so tired of seeing, which like, not, it's not that that's bad, but it's like I was googling stuff and not finding the answer or I was like, how to hire a va and I would find like hiring a VA can save you so much work. Or like, go find a VA and then have them in your inbox. I'm like, no, I need to know how to write a job description and I need to know like what happened and I need to know what they need and I need to know how to write an s so p and you know what I mean? Like, and I can go create the YouTube videos, like, here's how you write an s o p and here's how you do this and here's how you write a proposal. And like, I can go do that that somebody else can go get for free. Or because my program is creating enough revenue, I can go create a scholarship opportunity or because we have enough client work, I can go do some pro bono work or like whatever these things are like you, you create access and opportunity when you're actually making enough money. It, it just mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (14:23):
Brittany McBean (14:24):
Business can't be charity, but you can do charity when you're doing like enough business. Do you know, like it
Angie Colee (14:29):
Just, yes.
Brittany McBean (14:30):
It's a logical fallacy. Like it the me it just breaks down. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (14:33):
busting some myths over here because I think that's my big, like I've worked on some big teams and some big launches and I remember seeing ki comments to that effect on the ads. Well, if this was so valuable, you'd be giving it away for free. Uh, this is valuable, which is why it's not being given away for free. But we've created all kinds of free content that you can use if you can't afford the other thing. Like, oh my gosh,
Brittany McBean (14:55):
Here's my soapbox. I'll break out another one. Yes. I don't remember all the statistics because I, I have a D H D and a terrible memory. And so it always sounds like, do you remember there was an SS n l character, the Cecily strong character of like the girl at a party? Yeah. And she was, it was, yes. I feel like that is always me. I'm like, have you seen the latest article on buzzfeed? That's how I feel like I'm always talking, but I promise I'm citing actual data. I just can never remember the numbers. But I actually did a YouTube video where I actually had numbers in front of me and I cited them and I had like links to articles but can't remember the numbers. Here's the thing, when you give the away for free that like actually needs to be paid content, especially if you are white, if you are male or a white woman or cisgender or heterosexual, that all of the other people that are not like you, that get paid less on your dollar if you are giving it away for free and that is $0 and they get paid less on zero, you have just everyone over because you just set the bar at zero.
Brittany McBean (16:00):
So like, if I'm giving away my work for free, but somebody else gets paid 93 83, 70 3 cents on my dollar, where did I just put the bar for that person? Yes. But if I raise the bar and then I'm like, okay, now that bar just got higher for somebody else who may not have my privilege or my access, and not that they need me to come in and like set that bar for them, not that I'm responsible for doing that for them, but, but we do have a responsibility for not making it worse. Yes. Not making it worse for them. And I know that women copywriters, especially black women copywriters and especially copywriters and women of color and maybe copywriters who don't identify as a gender or as male or who might be brown or non-white mm-hmm. or do not look live, love or act traditionally they are up a lot up against a lot.
Brittany McBean (17:02):
Like, yes, there are a million white male copywriters and then there are like 0.75 million white women copywriters, . Yeah. Like there are a lot. And so if I'm out there like pumping out free charity work that sets the bar really low for everyone else mm-hmm. , and then that client who I just like lowered my prices for or like really, really wanted to work with and I didn't want them to like, think badly of me. And, and so I gave them like cheap work and I like really wanted whatever. And then like they got disappointed because they thought they could walk all over me and then like the, the scope crap and it just got really, really bad. Whatever. Well now that's the new standard. And so they go to work with a next person who might be, might not have as much privilege or access and all of a sudden, like that bar is already set so low, like it just everyone over. Mm-hmm. like, it just, it's just a really bad precedent. So I just don't feel good about this like, giving away free work or like giving away like underpriced or like cha like mm-hmm. , it, it,
Angie Colee (18:02):
I think that it, it reeks of like trickle down and economics narrative. Mm-hmm. of like, if you give enough away, that's when it comes back to you. And it's like making money is not a bad thing. And I feel like I've been ranting about this a lot lately on this show, but money is made up. It, it's, especially since it is not tied to the gold standard anymore, it is literally ones and zeros floating over our head in space right now. You can make as much as you want to if you decide that that's what you want to. So create something of value and put it out there and don't be ashamed of asking for an exchange of value for the value that you're putting out there. That's all asking for money is an exchange of value
Brittany McBean (18:39):
Because it's not lack of generosity. Right. That's not what we're talking about. Like, this isn't like, like, oh, price gouge and this isn't lack of generosity. Mm-hmm. , it's like, hey, if somebody's asking you to give away your value for free, that's a red flag. They don't respect you. Yes. Like they are not valuing your gifts or your talent, therefore they don't deserve your time like that. That's, that's what this is. Mm-hmm. . And there, if you, if you have a desire to, to like give access to information and you have a desire to lift other people up and you have a desire to be generous, there are places to do that. Yeah. And so your job is to pay yourself enough so that you have the time and the space to go do that.
Angie Colee (19:17):
Amen. Like generosity can, I believe in generosity is a business model. Um, and that's, I love to give things, but I think that that's the important key to that is that make sure that you are making enough to where you can afford to be generous and you are not literally giving the shirt off your back to somebody else so that you're suffering so that they can like moderately suffer less. And I love that you brought up this concept. I don't think I've ever, ever actually talked about this on the show of like, charging lower prices just means more work for you. And we're not necessarily saying you need to go out there and get a hundred thousand dollars, $500,000 contracts or anything like that. But the sale process for making a $25,000 sale and the sale process for making a $2,500 sale are pretty freaking similar. But you have to sell a lot more $2,500 projects to get to the same revenue as the one sale of 25,000. So like
Brittany McBean (20:12):
The math has to mass, like yes, time is fixed. Like that is fixed. So either if you're going to sell something for a less amount, but you wanna make the same amount of money, then you either have to be able to deliver that in a less amount of time in order to scale it ak like a course where you are just like handing them something that's already made or something like a v i p day where you're just doing that one day at a time where it's not one day it's hours and hours before and after. Right? Yes. But, and therefore you still have to charge thousands of dollars in order to make that make sense. Or you have to say, in order to do this project at a level of quality that I am proud of, where not only the product is delivering the desired results at the quality that I feel comfortable sending out the door, but the process is also the desired results and the quality that I feel comfortable sending out the door.
Brittany McBean (21:05):
And therefore this project is actually gonna take my team and I 12 to 15 weeks and these amount of tools and these amount of touch points and all this and that is actually gonna cost us $25,000 in order to accomplish at a profit that allows our business to keep running like mm-hmm. and we only need five to 10 co clients a year in order to hit our revenue goals. Like one of those things has to work. But you, you can't hit the same number that you want at the end and can't hit a hundred thousand dollars and do it for $500 a pop and only have five to 10 clients a year like that. Mm-hmm. , that doesn't work. The the math doesn't math.
Angie Colee (21:42):
Yeah, the math doesn't math, I, I love unpacking that because I think that that is the big disconnect with people that are kind of at a growth stage but like have their own money block issues around. I don't feel comfortable charging this amount. And it's kinda like, okay, well, but if you want to hit those income goals that you've set for yourself, think about the unacknowledged labor that you just committed yourself to by refusing to change that price or explore what a different price and service level could look like versus the income that you hope to achieve are these things in alignment. That's something I, I teach with a buddy's, uh, copywriter program. Uh, you may know Chris Zarkowski and one person agency I coach for him. And that was one of the biggest eye openers for folks where they're like, $2,500 a month, we're just gonna harp on 2500, 20 $500 a month.
Angie Colee (22:36):
Feels like a great revenue. And I'm like, okay, well a couple of pages ago you told me that your revenue goal was 30,000 a month. And they were like, yeah. And I was like, okay, so how many $2,500 a month retainer packages do you have to sell to get to that? And they were like, oh. And I'm like, and how many people do you have to talk to to sell that? Oh, and how many onboardings do you have to do and people that you have to chase for payments? Not to mention we haven't even gotten into the work yet. And all of the meetings and the deliverables and keeping that straight, like how realistic do you think you're being about your $30,000 a month goal Now if you are only selling $2,500 a month retainer packages and they go, oh. I'm like, this is not me telling you lower 30,000. Make that clear right now I am telling you up 2,500 mm-hmm. , or come up with a complimentary offer that you can fulfill on and deliver at least 5,000, $10,000 worth of value. 'cause that's what we're talking about, a value exchange. Again, I'm not asking somebody to pay me a certain dollar amount just pulled outta thin air. I think I can deliver that much value or more by entering into an agreement with this person.
Brittany McBean (23:44):
That's all. Yeah. Well, and, and like it's, you know, we pull out this like arbitrary like a month thing 'cause it feels, it feels good, right? But like the, the stability, sometimes the leads aren't like, what am I trying to say? We don't necessarily selling a new contract every month and I'm not having the same amount of revenue come in every month and I'm not having the same legion come in every month and I might have $60,000 a months and I might have $15,000 months and it has to even out. But like a $30,000 a month for me looks like three $30,000 contracts. We can really only do two to three clients at a time to provide the, the quality of service that I'm, that I feel good about. But it's three $30,000 contracts at a time. Three projects running at a time, stretched out and spaced out over 15 weeks.
Brittany McBean (24:33):
So those three contracts are running simultaneously almost like a hair salon where like while you're color setting somebody else's coming and getting their hair cut kind of thing, like research is happening while strategy is happening, while writing is happening, that kind of thing. And those payments are coming in simultaneously. So I'm heading, I'm having a $30,000 month spaced out over three different contracts and three different, you know, payment plans. And I'm having that three or four months in a row over three contracts and it's kind of resetting. And then sometimes mm-hmm. , we might have to bring in some other subcontractors because it's a big month and we actually have like five clients. But I have my contractors that I bring in because I know that this is like launch season and you know, and I know that like Q one is gonna be really, really slow.
Brittany McBean (25:14):
So like we're going hard in Q two and Q three and, and but just saying like, ah, I want a $30,000 month. Like that's, that's a great goal, but you have to, okay, how much time do I have? And then what do my prices have to be because I can only serve this many clients and mm-hmm. and I think that I, I understand like why somebody will look at, you know, $2,500 package and say, I could never charge 25,000 for this. Mm-hmm. I could because the evidence in front of them has been my clients pay $2,500 for this package, right? Mm-hmm. , like that's the evidence they have that is logical to assume, yeah, this is the amount that people pay. Or when I have sent out a proposal higher than this, people do not sign it. Or I've sent out a proposal higher than this, but it was actually over like eight months.
Brittany McBean (26:04):
Right. So, which is like not actually like, like the, again, the the money break it breaks down. Like the monthly payment isn't actually what, what we need it to be. And like that, that evidence in front of them is logically accurate, but it also, again, we're hitting that logical fallacy of like those that is, that might be the ceiling for that client, but there is a client where their ceiling is 25,000 and they have different goals and different objectives and a different budget and a different list and a different desire, and they're actually looking for something different and mm-hmm. and it might not even be that super sexy case study. Like, like they Yeah. They need that. They need that r o i. Yeah. But like they, they actually are really looking for that fit and that experience and like, and that trust and you know, like it's, it's gonna be different and, and they just need that perspective. But you don't know that because you haven't seen that before. And so why would you believe that when you don't have that evidence in front of you?
Angie Colee (27:02):
Yes. I love that you brought that up because I've often, I've talked about it in terms of what I call alternate realities. Hmm. And you're not even aware of somebody else's reality until you get to know them enough and they can show you. So like a reality that I did not have when I was a corporate copywriter was a freelance lifestyle. I literally had no conception of it. I couldn't imagine it. I didn't know what it looked like until I met other freelance copywriters. And even then, like it was very similar to the corporate job until I met somebody who was a digital nomad and who traveled full-time while doing it. And so as I met new people and I expanded my business network, I started to come in contact with people whose reality was drastically different from mine. So I wanna point out for everybody listening that a drastically different alternate reality for you could be someone that has a massive budget that you could never have possibly conceived of and seems ridiculously, it seems like something that you personally would never spend money on, but they find that valuable enough to drop that money like in a heartbeat.
Angie Colee (28:06):
And just because you haven't met them yet, that might seem very impossible. Like exactly like Brittany said, the evidence in front of you is stating, my clients will pay $2,500 for this and that is the ceiling. Okay. So maybe there's an opportunity to meet some new people and some new clients who have a much higher ceiling. And the cool thing about that is when you challenge yourself to see another reality, get out there, meet more people, have these conversations not project your money issues and what you would spend on somebody else, right. Just try to deliver the value. Uh, once you've charged $25,000 for a project, it is much harder to accept a $2,500 product project. And that just means that you're elevating your business and people can come up behind you and take those 2,500, you can refer that business out. Like it is such a glorious, glorious thing to challenge yourself to step up into a new reality.
Brittany McBean (28:55):
Love it. I've found, I'm like, I'm not interested in the like on clients game. Like I think it's really, it's, it's really popular to be the person who's like, I teach service providers to like charge more money and stop working with those clients who don't respect your boundaries. And like, yes, that is, but like mm-hmm. , look, everyone's doing the best they can for the most part, right? Yeah. Like most people are doing the best they can. And like some people aren't. Some people just suck. But most people are and like even those clients who like always are asking like, can you just do this extra thing for free? And like are emailing you on weekends, they're probably just doing what you're letting them, because you'd probably never communicated a boundary and didn't have it in your contract. And like, and that doesn't mean that you're wrong either.
Brittany McBean (29:37):
Like you're just doing the best you can 'cause you didn't know to do that. Right. But like they're probably just doing what you let them. Yeah. But I have found that the higher investing clients at the more advanced stages of their business with larger lists and larger budgets, they, they understand the value of a premium copywriter, of a strategist of someone who knows how to run a project, someone who knows how to hit deadlines of someone who is going to bring, um, this strategy into the meeting and who's going to bring this like unbelievably, um, high quality deliverable and and yes, this high r o I copy, but copy, but also like this well run project and this communication Yes. And all of this stuff. Like they understand that value. So I don't get pushback on the copy and I don't get pushback on the strategy and I don't get this like, can you just add this one more thing I get, how much would it be to add this and how much would it extend our timeline mm-hmm.
Brittany McBean (30:34):
, and I'd love to talk to you about doing this at the end of our project and you know what I mean, like those, those kinds of things because the earlier clients are looking to save that time and money and they don't fully understand because they haven't seen the R O I because they don't have that big list and they haven't had that like marketing budget and so they don't understand the value. And so they're like, they see you as like a high level VA with great writing skills, you know? Yeah. And they don't understand the value. So it's not that they're, it's that they, like, they don't see like the brilliance in front of you and mm-hmm. a client who gets how valuable a copywriter is, is probably gonna look at you and go, oh, they're only charging 2,500. They're probably not very good at their job. I'm gonna go find someone charging 15,000. That doesn't mean you're not good at your job, it means you're communicating something with your pricing. And the person who has 15,000 to spend is looking to spend 15,000. And so somebody who doesn't have 15,000 as a price tag on their website may not be the person they're looking for.
Angie Colee (31:35):
Yes. Ugh. That makes, I'm so glad we're having this conversation. 'cause that's something I've tried to communicate to people before too, that the flip side of this coin, if you refuse to raise your prices right, is exactly like Brittany said, that you're communicating something with your pricing. And so if there is somebody out there with an alternate reality where they're will willing to spend 15, 25, 35 or more on the same kind of work that you do, uh, they're looking at that rate that you charge and going, I don't know if they can handle this. I don't know if they've got the experience level right. And they've probably experienced somebody that came back at them and told them in a very professional manner, I'm only available on these days. Sure. We can add this on to your project and we'll be able to start that on this date. Let me know how you'd like to proceed. And like, it doesn't have to be this combative, like lay down the law Dwayne Johnson, the rock style setting boundaries thing. And I am, so I call it the pitchfork mob whenever I see groups online where people are talking about, uh, clients and me, that's a red flag. Newsflash, if you look for red flags, you'll find them even if they're not actually accurate. Yeah. , some
Brittany McBean (32:45):
People are like, they're out there like, yeah. Like we've had to, we've had to let some clients go and just like, Hey, this was great. Here's your money back. This isn't gonna work. Like they're out there. They're out there and, but you can, you can prevent a lot of red flags in your process. Like in your, you can, and like some flags are orange because they just don't know and they just wanna know the rules of the road. Yes. And if you can just tell them the rules of the road, Hey, this is how you contact me. This is what I'm not available. This is our meeting policy, this is our scheduling policy. This is the fee. If you miss a meeting, this is a fee. If you extend our project, this is the fee. If you need a rewrite versus an edit, this is the definition of a rewrite versus an edit. This, you know, like if you can just give them the information they need to successfully run a project. Like that's what a boundary is. And then they're like, amazing. Now I have all the information. Now I'm not anxious. Wondering what if, like, thank you so much. Yeah. Oh, these are the meeting dates, these are the times. This is when I can expect this. Wonderful. Now I have all the information. Great. Now I know how to proceed. You know how to proceed. Wonderful. Let's go. Mm-hmm. .
Angie Colee (33:42):
Yeah. I mean all, almost all of the time when there is some sort of heartache that I have found, like when I'm coaching somebody through a difficult client relationship, it's usually because the copywriter did not articulate themselves, or the business owner didn't articulate themselves. At some point, maybe they didn't know that they needed this from a client and they didn't have that experience yet. Or they didn't know that they had permission to say no to something. Um, I think that's like the biggest realization of a lot of people that I coach in business is that like, oh, I don't have to as an example, offer social media. No, just 'cause a client asked and you could figure it out if you wanted to. Doesn't mean that you have to say yes to that. And I see so many people that go, well, I really hate offering this service, but I'm good at it and I could charge a lot for it. But if you hate it, is that money worth the money? The math doesn't math to me on that. Like, that's expensive money. Yo, if you hate every minute of that project.
Brittany McBean (34:37):
No, it's a complete sentence. And so is like, that's a great question for the member on your team who handles that. That's a great question for the support of that tool. That is a great question for this support team member. I'd love to provide you with a referral. Yes. This is a great Facebook group where you can go look for somebody that provides that. Like, like those are wonderful things to say to your clients and that's helpful to them. Like that's education. But I like, I know all of these things because I learned the hard way. Like I learned the hard way and my mental health and my family paid for it. Like I, I didn't like just come out of, I went to my degree's in musical theater. Like I didn't come out of, come out of, you know, musical theater school Kick Assing my face and singing a high c like knowing how to like set boundaries and say no and write a contract.
Brittany McBean (35:24):
Like I didn't know the I learned because I said yes and then I hated it and I regretted it. And then I like couldn't spend time with my daughter and mm-hmm. . And I said yes. And then it came at the cost of my team who I went with me for years. Years. Or I didn't restate a boundary after it had already been communicated. Or I let a client walk all over me and then the relationship went south when that was a relationship that could have been salvaged and should have been. And I wanted that relationship and it didn't have to go that way. You know, like it, I learned, I learned the hard way and I didn't have to. And that's why I care a lot about communicating this information because mm-hmm. sometimes it's really good to like learn the hard way and that's how you figure out what works for you. But sometimes somebody can just tell you, Hey, add this into your contract, or hey, if you use this language in your Kick Assoff call, it might prevent scope creep later down the road. And then you're like, yep, amazing. Thanks. I'm gonna do that every single time I have a Kick Assoff call. Mm-hmm. ,
Angie Colee (36:22):
I give every my favorite. I'm gonna give this away. Here's, here's the free value, my favorite script. Script. Anytime you are faced with a scope creep situation, ready guys, write this down. Uh, and it'll be in the transcript too. Happy to add that my fee for that is x. I can start that on dates. Let me know how you'd like to proceed. There is my easy peasy script. Of course. I will give the caveat that you need to be able to answer three questions with a yes on that. All three questions much must be a yes. Do I like this client? Do I enjoy this work? Do I have availability? If all three are a yes, then yes go to this client and say, happy to add that. My fee for that is X. If you don't like the work, if you don't like the client, why would you offer them additional work? Don't do it. And I love everything that you're saying. Um, one of the things that I wrote and underlined a couple times was restating the boundary. This frustrates me in freelancer groups to no ends because people are like, it's in my contract. How often do you check your contract before you go asking someone a question and firing things off? I don't read my
Brittany McBean (37:30):
Contract. conditions. You check a box. No.
Angie Colee (37:33):
Right? So like assume again, positive intent. Everybody's doing their best. And if some, if you have made it clear multiple times that you don't do meetings on Mondays and they ask for a meeting on a Monday, just assume they've forgotten. Go Monday's out, here are the dates that I can do. And be willing to repeat that with the patients of talking to a three-year-old Monday's out. Yeah, I can do it on this date. Monday's out, I can do it. No. Hey, we've talked about this a million times. I don't do Mondays. Nobody cares that you don't do Mondays. .
Brittany McBean (38:00):
Yeah. And you know what, it's really, it's really difficult, especially if you were someone who was raised as a woman. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (38:11):
Brittany McBean (38:11):
Especially like in our generation or older, we are definitely more predisposed to make people happy. Yeah. Not, not all of us, of course, but, but a lot of us, a lot of
Angie Colee (38:24):
Us were socialized that way for sure.
Brittany McBean (38:26):
It's really difficult to have crucial conversations where there might be conflict. And I've gotten a lot better at that. It's been really hard and really uncomfortable and I hate it. Yes. But I've really learned how to do it and I've learned how to do it in a way that everyone has dignity and these are not conflict situations or just crucial conversations, but guess what? It's really, really, really easy to state a boundary when you don't need to. Yeah. It's really hard to state a boundary when you're in a situation. Mm-hmm. . So if you can just say, Hey, before we start our project, I wanna bring your attention to our meeting policy. I wanna bring your attention to our communication policy. Do you have any questions about this? I wanna make sure the project plan works for you. Do these deadlines work for you?
Brittany McBean (39:07):
Do you have any vacation dates? Because we will not be able to make any adjustments after today. Yeah. The feedback turnaround time. Will that work for you and your team? I wanna let you know there is a fee if we extend the project, there is a fee for this. Please note that there is a resource here for you noting what a rewrite it. Like if you state those boundaries early before you need them, then you have covered your. And then when it comes up, yes. All you have to say is, I just wanna remind you, we went over this on the Kick Assoff call. I know we went over so many things, but in the contract is does state X, Y, and Z? So your approval will be implied after the state if you're not able to get your feedback in mm-hmm. or whatever that thing is.
Brittany McBean (39:45):
Just whatever. It's really hard after you let it go the first time because you didn't wanna avoid conflict, then you let it go the second time. Yeah. And then the third time you're actually having a panic attack and then you have to work late and you're missing dinner. But it's actually like your kid has something special and they really wanna show you an art project, but like it, it gets, it gets really, really bad. Really, really good. Yes. And then you actually have to send an email and next thing you know, you wanna fire the client and the relationship has gone really, really bad. Yes. So if you saved the boundary early before there's conflict, then the second time you're just restating something that everybody has already agreed to as opposed to bringing something up after there's already conflict.
Angie Colee (40:20):
Yes. Which
Brittany McBean (40:20):
You can always do. You can always restate a boundary after the fact 'cause it's in your contract. Like you still can do that. Mm-hmm. .
Angie Colee (40:26):
Yeah. And there's a way
Brittany McBean (40:27):
To do it. Do it before.
Angie Colee (40:28):
Yeah. Do it before. And if you don't know your working terms, it's okay. Just go into this knowing that you're going to learn them, you are going to run into a situation where you go, oh, after hours calls, no. Now that's part of my contract. My call hours are between X and Y. Mm-hmm. , this is how you can set a meeting. Oh, I had a contract that ended early, we parted ways and I didn't get paid beyond the deposit. Okay, well now I'm instituting a piece and buying contract that says kill fees. Once we make it to certain milestones, I am due a payment whether or not the project goes all the way through. Right. These are things that you learn in and
Brittany McBean (41:04):
Copyright doesn't get transferred and you can't use my. Yes.
Angie Colee (41:07):
If you don't pay me. Oh my God. That's the biggest thing too. All rights retains folks. All rights retains. Um, you just learn this through trial and error. You learn it by messing up, quite frankly, and you will be treated the way you allow yourself to be treated. And also if you find yourself feeling resentful, you get to restate a boundary. Exactly like Brittany said, you get to go. Okay. Hey, so I wanna bring something to your attention. Last time, if you recall from the Kick Assoff call, we stated that the policy was beyond this date. This, this copy is considered final and there no more edits will be allowed. Last time we had a little bit of an emergency, I allowed that deadline to be extended. That was a one-time exception. If I did not make that clear, I won't be able to make that happen again with this next round. So I really wanna call your attention to the fact that the deadline is coming up quick and if we miss that deadline, the copy will be considered final and we'll be rolling forward with what I submitted. So if you have some changes, now is the time. Right? There is always a way to reset that. These are
Brittany McBean (42:11):
These email templates, these are email templates. Write this down. Yes. These are email templates.
Angie Colee (42:17):
Then you don't have to figure out what to say in the moment when you're maybe feeling a little bit heated and you feel like you have to act now. Right. Don't ever be pushed into a reactive state. There's always more time than it feels like there is hardly any situ. Look, we're not cutting people over open. Most of us on this listening to this podcast right now aren't in a life or death industry. Mm-hmm. Where like literally seconds counts between someone making it or not. There's no
Brittany McBean (42:44):
Such thing as a copywriting emergency. There's no such thing as a copywriting emergency. Mm-hmm. It doesn't exist. Mm-hmm. ,
Angie Colee (42:50):
That's, I'm fond of saying that you can buy, I don't think I have ever had somebody go, oh, you waited 24 hours to respond to my email. you lady. Maybe some people have that expectation, but those aren't the kind of people that I really wanna work with. Most people that I work with understand that I'm busy. Inboxes get full pretty quickly, stuff gets buried, and if I don't respond in 24 to 48 hours, they just send another email going, Hey, did you see this? And it just becomes a conversation.
Brittany McBean (43:16):
And like the thing is, you're gonna get it wrong. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (43:19):
,
Brittany McBean (43:20):
I've, I've gotten it so wrong and I've had a couple clients, not a lot, a couple, and these clients were probably really good people, but a couple, a couple clients go really bad and they said some not very kind things to me. Mm-hmm. and I cried and it didn't feel good and I didn't hold my head up high and I didn't feel confident and boss babe. And like I'm a c E O and, and this doesn't affect me and back to work. And I cried and I felt really insecure and I wanted to crawl into a hole and die and I wanted to shut things down. And they said some really mean things and it was awful. And then I learned and I put something into my contract and I learned and I changed my onboarding process and I optimize and I optimize and I optimize and I optimize and I add something to my welcome kit and I add something to my onboarding and I add something to my Kick Assoff call and I add something to my meeting.
Brittany McBean (44:09):
And I, like, I added every single project. And yes, I have some clients projects go south. And yes, I had to suffer some contracts and yes, I had people say some very unkind things to me. And yes, it made me feel absolutely terrible and not confident and not good and not like I knew what I was doing and not like I was a leader in my industry, but also have a really, really, really, really good reputation in my industry. And I work with the top leaders in my industry and they have wonderful things to say about me. And not only do they make a lot of money with the copy that I write, but they have excellent things to say about working with me. And some people had some terrible things to say about working with me and we just weren't good fits. And I still handled myself with dignity. I still feel really proud about how I severed those contracts or however that, however those ended. Mm-hmm. , I mean literally I'm talking like two or three in like clients ever in like four years. But I have dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of clients who think very highly of me and have great experiences working with us. And like I didn't die. I didn't die. Yes. But I did make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yes. Continuing to do what I do. So like, you're gonna get it wrong.
Brittany McBean (45:14):
So just fix it the next time. Yeah. And then you'll get something wrong in that project and then just fix it the time after that. Just that's keep getting it wrong.
Angie Colee (45:23):
Yeah. You get to be human, you get to be a human being who does business. And by the same token, this has made it a lot easier for me to not see clients as the enemy and fall into that, you know, pitchfork, mob trap, uh, they get to be human too. They get to have bad days. They get to have their warehouse blow up. They get to have somebody in their, like, they don't get to have somebody in their family die, but this happens. Houses burned down, computers blow up. People get to be humans in business. Does that mean they get to treat you like? No. May they accidentally treat you like because you're a convenient target Sometimes that's happened to all of us. I always choose to treat these situations with, Hey, seems like you're having a bad day. This feels a little bit out of character for you.
Angie Colee (46:06):
I don't think I ever have recalled you. It's kind of mean. Is everything okay? This seems like I will call it out if it is out of the norm and give them grace to be human. And sometimes they're, you're just so deep in the that you don't even realize you're being a jerk to people around you. And that's when it's like you're being a good person and a friend to somebody to call them out on their from time to time. You don't have to take it, but you don't have to be mean about it either. Um, I've had people that were being mean to me and when I said, Hey, are you, are you okay? This just seems really abnormal for you. We're normally laughing and joking and having a good time and this seems like, do we need to, do you need some downtime?
Angie Colee (46:44):
Do we need to reschedule? What's going on? And they went, oh, I'm sorry. You know, like I just had this string of bad personal events that went on and I didn't even realize I, I came to this call in a mood. Okay, cool. Do we need to reschedule? Or you okay to do this right now? Like, we don't have to do this right now. That's fine. We can take a break. And they loved and respected me for being willing to call them to that and also refusing to allow myself to be treated that way. Like Right. Just because they're going through some doesn't mean I have to take. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (47:16):
Mm-hmm. I love that. And I wanted to circle back to something that you said earlier about like what you do and don't do offer, right? You get to say no to projects. I I have this joke with people of course. 'cause I ha I handle everything through sarcasm and humor and that's why my client said it. It's just me. Not saying that works for everybody, but when people say, okay, so you are gonna take these emails and you're gonna put 'em in the back end of the system, I go, uh, my, and no, you don't want me anywhere near the buttons Holmes. I will find a way to make things go nuclear, even with the best of intentions. And I'm like, 5,000 per sure percent sure I have figured this out. Mm-hmm. the YouTube tutorial. Like, no, I will find a way to mess this up. Spectacularly tech is not my forte. I'm good at certain things and not others. I promise you want me to stay on the story, on the strategy, not in the buttons. If you need a referral to someone who can push buttons, I got a guy, uh, uh mm-hmm , there are also YouTube tutorials. Maybe you're better at figuring this stuff out than me, but I don't wanna be anywhere near the back end. Here's where my strengths are. And you get to build that value and say no to pushing buttons. Yeah. That's
Brittany McBean (48:22):
Literally the exact script. And on the sales call, they'll ask, do you, do you do any of the design? Do you do any of the install? Do you guys like put And I'm like, I will break your business and if I design it, it'll look like a five-year-old found clip art. Yes. So, and I always say, it would be a waste of your money if my team or I touched your tech or your design. Yes. What I do best is strategy and copy, and that is the best use of your investment. But what I also did, because I was getting that question or people would be like, do you have a designer? If we put together an entire spreadsheet of a referral list of every job you could have in the industry and that referral Google sheet gets zapped into the client folder, the second they sign a contract along with a couple of other resources and they get a giant client folder that gets zapped together.
Brittany McBean (49:10):
And so that's one of the things we go over on the Kick Assoff call. And so now I just get to say no. But when we work together, one of the resources you'll get is a list of referrals. I have not worked with all of these people, but they all have a great reputation in the industry. And this list is proprietary list. Mm-hmm. we upgraded is being handed over to you so that not only are you getting your investment in me, but you're also getting the names that I know and I'm not breaking anything in your business that you don't want me touching.
Angie Colee (49:40):
That is my favorite. And I wanna highlight that and unpack it for everybody that didn't catch just how brilliant that strategy was. All right. So let's talk about a perceived negative, a perceived flaw. Folks, a perceived flaw is, well, I only do copy and strategy. I don't do the design. I can't be your all in one solution. Period. End of sentence, sexy. Right? Uh, but the, the option that I wanna call attention to is, I, I don't do design. That's not my forte. That would actually be a waste of your money. I'm not great at that. I have a Rolodex of people that I highly recommend and I'm going to give that to. I've built that list of people that I trust that I'm going to hand over to you. You are part of my network. Like listen to how this has become, this has evolved beyond a, I don't do that period to, I don't do that. And here's this benefit and this extra added value that I'm giving to you. And now I can give that to every other client. So tasty
Brittany McBean (50:34):
, I mean all of that. And like, I'm sorry, I have looked for a designer before and I was looking for a designer for a sales page that I needed to convert. And if my designer told me that they did copy red flag. Mm-hmm. , I wanna know, you are an expert in c R O design and UX design. I need this page to convert. And I know that like I cannot make that happen outside of the words. So I need to know that you know your. You have spent your time studying, you have spent your time doing, you've spent your time like working. I know that you design and do nothing else, that you are obsessed with design. 'cause that is what I need this to do. Don't tell me that you can also write my emails or that you can like build out a funnel for me. No, I need the sale. I want a sales page designer. I want a UX C sales page designer. I want this to work. That's all I need. . That's what I need.
Angie Colee (51:23):
Okay? So for everybody that is stuck at that horrible growth stage where maybe you're wondering if you were meant for this or you don't know where the next steps are, like, download this episode, download the transcript, listen to this. Over and over and over again, we've been dropping fricking bombs, knowledge bombs on how to elevate your mindset to attract the next level on how to adjust your strategy and how you're talking to people and how you're treating people and how you're allowing yourself to be treated so that you can bring in that higher caliber of client. So you're gonna love this one. I'm so excited for this episode to go live. I could keep talking to you for like two more hours. 'cause I imagine all of the soap boxes we could get on together. But for right now, I'm gonna say tell us more about where we can find you and learn about your business.
Brittany McBean (52:07):
Um, oh, the internet. Mm-hmm. . So the best place to learn is YouTube. But the best place to like actually hear from me is my email list. Um, so you can get on it anywhere. Just go to my website. got freebies all over the place. There's call to actions on YouTubes. I know I'm a great salesperson. I'm like just mm-hmm. generally go to the internet and get on my email list. Um, you speak
Angie Colee (52:31):
In my love language, it's. Get on my list. Yes. Just get on my
Brittany McBean (52:34):
list. But, um, if you did hear this and you do wanna connect, go to Instagram, slide into my dms. If you're creepy, I will block you in a heartbeat. Yes. But slide into my dms and just say like, Hey, I heard you on Angie's podcast and let's talk. Just let me know where you came from and let's have a conversation and chat.
Angie Colee (52:52):
Fantastic. I'm gonna make sure that they have clickable links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being on the show. I think we're gonna, we're gonna have to like recurring segment this, explore all of the soapbox ,
Brittany McBean (53:05):
Unpacking the soapbox from the warehouse. That'll be our segment. Yes.
Angie Colee (53:08):
Yes. Recurring segment. Thank you so much again for being on the show and can't wait to do a part two. I can't wait. That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose of you can do it. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go Kick Ass some.