Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, Heming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass . Okay, so you guys are hearing me come in laughing because, uh, I tried to make a quip about meet the annoying announcer lady. You know, the lady on Zoom that goes meeting recording in progress or whatever she does. Uh, and then I accidentally hit share screen, which was not what I intended to do. So welcome to the podcast where I clicked on the wrong button from the start. Please welcome back, Brittany Herzberg.
Brittany Herzberg (00:58):
Thank you. I'm happy to be here on a whoopsie episode. You know, it's kind of fitting for me.
Angie Colee (01:03):
, we all have whoopsie episodes. It's so fu I was recording with a friend last week where my internet dropped out in the middle of the recording. Yeah. And it just so happened that she was interested in starting her own podcast. And I was like, all right, we're gonna keep this in case in point. So if it sounds a little bit different or a little bit awkward or a little bit clipped, it's because my internet dropped out and we just had to come back and rerecord the ending. So like, this is part of the process. I'm just gonna show you what it's like to be in business. How about that?
Brittany Herzberg (01:29):
Exactly. That's part of what I love about you is like, you know what? Life happens. happens. Here we are.
Angie Colee (01:34):
. Exactly. Here we are. The happened. We laughed about it. Moving on. So, Brittany, I know you've been on the show before, but remind us what you do, what you specialize at. What rocks are worlds?
Brittany Herzberg (01:49):
What, what do I do? So I am an SEO and case study copywriter who tries to joke around too much, who service providers call when they're ready to show up, is the answer to a Googled question. So I help with seo, research strategy, case studies are my jam. I've started, I'm so proud of myself. I've started to actually become known as the case study copywriter, so yeah. Yeah, I made it. Thank you. Hello . Hell
Angie Colee (02:11):
Yeah. Made it.
Brittany Herzberg (02:13):
Mm-hmm. .
Angie Colee (02:14):
That's awesome. And what got you started down that path?
Brittany Herzberg (02:19):
Curiosity and wanting to just specifically with seo, wanting to figure it out and mm-hmm. , kinda like, I'm here, here's the deal. I'm the person that if you tell me it's too hard, I'm gonna try anyway just to , you know, prove you wrong. I have a little bit of that tendency, like a lot. Um, and then with case studies, I finally figured out why it is that I was so drawn to it. Um mm-hmm. , what actually happened is I woke up from a dream last year, spring of 2022, and I was like, okay, study copywriting. This is what I wanna do. And then here we are. Nice, like early 2023, and I finally put the pieces together. So I am a copywriter by way of massage therapy. And what used to happen in the massage room is I would take myself to an acupuncturist.
Brittany Herzberg (03:04):
I would go explore, I would come back and tell my clients about it. Um, client would be on the table having a problem, and I would be like, you know what, someone else had a, some something very similar and this is what we did and this is what worked. So it's, I love sharing stories and probably like my biggest guiding light is that I never want someone to feel like they're alone. And that stemmed from me not wanting to feel so alone. So, you know, shocker. So love stories, love not feeling alone. Here we are
Angie Colee (03:30):
. Same, same, same. I mean, well, I, I've said it several times on this show before, but the whole reason this show exists was because I thought over here screwing everything up and look at those perfect people over there that don't make mistakes, not the way that I do. Like, I'm never gonna play on their level. Oh, oh, we're all it up and still going, oh, it up. Cool. That makes me feel so much better and so much more confident about just, well, this feels good, let's do it.
Brittany Herzberg (03:54):
Yeah. Totally
Angie Colee (03:57):
. And funny sidebar too, I was helping somebody with a resume last week and we're kind of busting that same, uh, line of thought. Mm-hmm. where she was like, I don't have the applicable experience to go out for this writing role that she was going for. And I was like, the first time that I went out for a writing role, I managed to pull, frankly out of my butt, like mm-hmm. connections between waiting tables, interning at major entertainment companies, and somehow tie it all together with the writing job that I was supposed to get. And I got it . I mean, I turned in like 300 applications to get that one interview that led to the one job, but like, wow. And in that resume, I found it funny cuz I had something, I hated that, uh, like objective section. So I took it out and made it my own. I called it a style profile cause I'm a writer, right? Here's my style profile. Oh God. And one of the lines in there was like, if you tell me something is impossible, I will find five ways to do it. Or something to that effect.
Brittany Herzberg (04:48):
So , not even just
Angie Colee (04:49):
One, tell me when you said that, like, tell me something's impossible, let's
Brittany Herzberg (04:53):
Go. Yeah. Watch me. That is my favorite line is watch me. And then also too, with like being a massage therapist, people walk in, they look at you, they're like appraising you as they're looking at you, which mm-hmm. doesn't always feel wonderful being a woman, but I liked it because I'm like, all right, size me up. And little did they know five minutes on the table and they were like, oh, I didn't expect you to be like, I know I've heard this a time or two before. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (05:15):
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I do love that I, I admit to taking a certain guilty pleasure sometimes in purposefully like, indulging when I know that somebody is underestimating me.
Brittany Herzberg (05:24):
Yeah. It's fun. Let's
Angie Colee (05:26):
Watch how this goes. Let's watch how this goes. Um, warning for anybody that's listening in a technical sense, uh, I know many engineers and folks who have worked on cars and I do particularly delight in going to dealerships and watching how they treat me.
Brittany Herzberg (05:38):
Oh, it's fun. It's blast. I, I, I love playing up the, I'm, I'm a brunette, but I love playing up the dumb blonde. Mm-hmm. and just seeing what people do. It's
Angie Colee (05:48):
Great. Yep. Yep. Just be ethical guys. Don't look at somebody and size them up as stupid. Cuz they might be tricking you just saying. Mm-hmm. , hold on. Now that we've gone, gone on about five tangents since we first started. Sure. I wanted to bring it back to SEO and how that, you know, connects to massage because I, I wrote down Changing Direction and taking your time, which I thought were really important because so many, like, I know when I first started out, I just had this idea of I can't really get started until I know what I wanna do. Yep. And for me, the quintessential over planner, that meant that I had to have a map from here to like hundred and one years old. Yeah. And I had to know every step of the way before I can take the first one.
Brittany Herzberg (06:27):
. Yeah. What? That's not normal. over planner
Angie Colee (06:31):
Of the world Unite.
Brittany Herzberg (06:34):
I'm on the right podcast.
Angie Colee (06:36):
Yes, for sure. But I love the fact that like, and you see that same connection. Like there's a connection between massage therapy and SEO and wanting to find the questions and what you're doing now with the case studies, like all of these skills transfer, you don't have to go down from the mountaintop and up the next mountain. You can find a little bridge across. But if you're creative to connect your skills there.
Brittany Herzberg (06:58):
Yeah. It take, it takes some, some thought, it takes some patience with yourself. Mm-hmm. , but it's there. And I, as you're talking about this, it's reminding me of when I was in school specifically, there was one year of my high school career, whatever we wanna call it, where I took I kid you not six classes. Yes. Overachiever. Little bit bonkers. It's cool. Again, we're here. So
Angie Colee (07:19):
I'm there with you
Brittany Herzberg (07:20):
six classes. And I was just telling my boyfriend about this recently. I, for whatever reason, my brain was like, we must connect these so we can pay attention in class. I was a straight A student. I love school, I love learning. But I was like, let's connect. Let me see if I can figure out what it was. World religions with like calc one with like art history with like the other three. And I was like, I found a through line.
Angie Colee (07:43):
Yes. And it made learning more fun that words through line
Brittany Herzberg (07:46):
Brittany McBean, has that drilled into my brain. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (07:49):
, Brittany McBean. Oh, I need to talk to her. I'm writing that down too. I
Brittany Herzberg (07:53):
Can make the connection for you.
Angie Colee (07:55):
. Yes. Awesome. Um, I totally lost my train of thought with that, but I know that we were talking about transitioning. Well first of all, I wanted to jump in with seo, search engine optimization. For those of you that are unfamiliar with the term or that you see it around, um, I remember when that was first kind of emerging as a practice and the, the name of the game was like keyword stuffing. Yeah. And all I remember was like getting off at it and deciding that SEO wasn't for me. just because of the side of the industry that I was exposed to with the keyword stuffing. Like my motto was, uh, search engines, spiders don't buy . People with wallets do. Yes. So I don't care how many keywords you stuff in there, if I don't know what the hell you're doing, I'm not going to buy from you. I don't care if you're on page one or not. Like this still has to be written for humans at the end of the day. I'm very glad that Google and the, the major check companies have moved more toward rewarding people That Right. For people. Yes. But yeah. And then so you made that transition from, we're just gonna ramble our way to the point. It's gonna be, we're gonna get
Brittany Herzberg (08:58):
There. It's fine. We will find it. It's at the end of our 101 year old plan
Angie Colee (09:03):
. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's all the way at the end. We're gonna circle back around , um, getting from SEO to case studies. Yeah. What made you go in that direction? I know that you said it was just like a dream, but was there anything behind it? Or was it just a random dream?
Brittany Herzberg (09:19):
It was truly a random dream. I was, I was in the process of trying to figure out what my thing was cuz I wanted to have my thing. I put myself out there as a copywriter and I wrote emails, I wrote captions, I wrote sales pages, I wrote webpages, I wrote, and I loved everything that I wrote. I wrote flyers for people. I mean, you know, name it. I tried it just to figure out what the thing was. And I was really drawn to sales pages. I really loved what I was figuring out with seo. And I love stories. I love people, I love connections. Like, if you throw the word connection and intention out there, like, that's my jam. And I just love getting to meet people and talk with people. I love social proof. So all of that stuff was like ping ponging around my head. And I think that's why I just woke up from a dream one day. And it sounds silly, but it's truly what happened. And I, I had a friend and I wrote to her and I was like, I think this, I think this is my thing. And she's like, I love it. Go for it. And I was like, okay. I was like, I needed the, the one little validating human mm-hmm. to be like, yeah, go for it.
Angie Colee (10:18):
Because like, what's interesting, cause that to me is like, it sounds like a random dream, but what I'm hearing at least is that you charged your subconscious mm-hmm. with figuring out this puzzle. Mm-hmm. , I've got a puzzle to solve where I have these skills and these passions. Like I was furiously scribbling notes while you were writing all that Aw and
Brittany Herzberg (10:36):
Help me figure it out. Angie
Angie Colee (10:38):
, I wrote down Know yourself and know your strengths. Mm-hmm. , uh, and that's what I, so you're like, here are the things that I'm interested in. Here are the things that I'm passionate about, here are the skills that I have. How do I combine all of these in a way that makes me stand out and, you know, is a signal to all my people that I'm here and I can help. Mm-hmm. . And I think that's really important because I know, you know, I work with a lot of very beginner stage writers who are just learning, you know, the business skills and one common refrain that I will hear from folks. And if this is you, all of my love, I had this story in my head once upon a time, but it went something like this. But I'm good. I'm a really freaking good writer so I shouldn't have to do all of this other stuff if that's you again, love. But there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of really, really good writers in the world. I'm one of them. Brittany's one of them. We're all out there. So what else is different about you, my friend? Other than you're a good writer, newsflash, you're still gonna have to do more than just being a good writer. Hmm. Full side
Brittany Herzberg (11:44):
mic drop. Don't actually drop it, but mic drop .
Angie Colee (11:47):
Yes. Thankfully it's mounted to the desk so we won't be dropping it. . Well, and I know, know that you were telling me before we started recording that you did something interesting and exciting and maybe a little bit scary on a total whim late last year. So let's just jump into it. Tell me what you did.
Brittany Herzberg (12:03):
Let's get into it. So I had my first launch ever, and I feel I was making notes before we, we jumped on here and I feel like I broke so many rules mm-hmm. of launching. But I did what felt good to me and I got students and I approved the concept. And it's something that I'm gonna be launching again soon. And my intention is to actually take it evergreen and then do like periodic pushes for it. Yes. Um, I'm so excited. But yeah, it, and it all started as does many of my, as do many of my offers and packages and things by someone asking me like, Hey, have you ever thought of showing other copywriters how you create these case studies? And I was like, no. Mm-hmm. . But now I want to, so I put this thing together in two weeks. Like nice, wild. Yeah. And I had, um, nearly a three week launch period, which again sounds kooky, but it worked for me. It was great. I got wonderful questions. Um, yeah. And I have the data, like if we wanna dive into any of that, but I'm just happy that like, I had a launch, it worked and I broke some stuff. .
Angie Colee (13:09):
That's great. Well, and it, you know, the interesting thing, I don't talk about it a whole lot, but I have mentioned from time to time that I ran the writing team for like a, a well known marketing guru. He's like the Tony Robbins of marketing. Hmm. He does the thousand person conferences. So, uh, we're gonna name drop a little bit. His name is Jeff Walker, and he is arguably known as the founder of the Modern Launch. Mm-hmm. the way that we launch online. And for everybody that's ever followed Jeff Walker. And none of this is a judgment or anything like that. His process can be very involved, it can take a lot of steps, a lot of thought. And I think that's precisely what makes it work so well and why he's been around for 20 plus years. But all that to say, I'm just nodding my head when Britney's talking about like all of the, I just threw this together and I broke all the rules. And I'm like, oh, I worked for the guy that wrote the rules. So I get that .
Brittany Herzberg (13:56):
You're like, yep, you broke that one and that one, and
Angie Colee (13:59):
That one and that one. But I think that's the funny thing to me is how often we get this kind of of message that there's, there's a way to do things, there's a method, there's a system, and that if you don't follow this, you are jeopardizing everything. And I'm like, no. The funny thing is that Jeff made product launch formula up. He made it up. He made it, he created the rule. No. So can't Britney create a rule? Can't Angie create a rule? Can't you, dear listener? Create a rule that everybody suddenly decides is the law about, about case studies, about podcasting, about permission to kick at the laws are here . Um, the rules are made up and the points don't matter to quote. Yeah. one of my favorite non-game shows. Uh, whose line is it? Anyway? Um, I love that show.
Angie Colee (14:51):
My show too. God laugh snorting the entire way. Improv is great. Yes. Um, and there were so, so many great points that you made in that. Like, I wanted to circle it back to the, the fact that you got questions from people and that mm-hmm. is what started you down this path. And that's something that I wanted to bring up for everybody listening. Pay attention to the questions you get. Resist the urge to dismiss them or come up with excuses as to why they don't apply. I did that the first time someone app approached me about starting a podcast. And it was after I spoke on stage at one of Jeff's events that somebody was like, you have a great voice. Have you ever thought about having a podcast? And I was like, what? Are you smoking? My voice is weird, . Um, but then it happened a couple more times mm-hmm. . And none of these people had anything to gain from, from telling me this and asking me about a podcast. So I started to dismantle my own bias against like, I have a weird voice. Why would anybody wanna hear this? Um, because of questions that I got from people outside myself that showed me there might be something more there than I give myself credit for. So there, there's one thing. Mm-hmm. , the other one was Parkinson's Law, which is how I think you broke the rules of launching talk
Brittany Herzberg (16:03):
To me.
Angie Colee (16:03):
So almost everybody that that came to me for launching consultation after I left Jeff's team wanted to do the big behemoth, the big JV launch, the one that takes months to plan and, you know, can make millions of dollars in a couple weeks. That's great if you've got all the resources in place to handle that. But that is not applicable for probably 90 to 95% of people in business out there. You can do something much simpler and get really, really great results. Um, but if you give yourself two weeks to get something launched and out the door, that's what I mean by Parkinson's law. The time that you give the task is the time that it will take to do the task. So if you've decided I'll get it out in two months, man, suddenly all of those tasks expands to get it out in two months. You gotta get this sucker out next week, or by the end of the day, you will find a way. It'll be much simpler and much more rush. But you will find a way. So yeah, give yourself less time, guys. That's my my favorite hack.
Brittany Herzberg (17:00):
Yeah. Well, and as a chronic procrastinator who's working on that and as a recovering perfectionist? Yes. , when my friend asked me this question, I didn't even look at the calendar. I was like, you know what? I have the time. This sounds great. Let me go for it. Mm-hmm. . So I did, and I knew this was something, as soon as she asked me the question, I was like, this is something that I can put my flag in. I can be this person, I can have this thing. It'll be a repeatable, repeatable process. A repeatable package. It's something that I'll have. So yes, I'll be putting in a lot of work right here, but it's gonna benefit me for the long run.
Angie Colee (17:34):
Yes. Yes. It's absolutely worth it. So just, and just put it out there too, because most of the time we have our, our suppositions and we have our informed, you know, best educated guests as to how things will go based on our experience. But you still never know how things are going to go until you put it out there. Until you, and, and this is how the best new ideas get surfaced, the ones that everybody tends to follow is that somebody goes, well, I mean, I know that you're supposed to launch this way. This is the way to do launch. This is the system, these are the rules, but what if I did it this way? Mm-hmm. . And that was the interesting thing that I always admired. Like Jeff is one of the most strategic people I know. Hi Jeff. If you're listening, . Um, and I always thought it was smart that th this kind of ties into the idea that I have that there's not really com competition. There are collaborative partners, but like I don't really see anybody as competing with me cuz nobody else can deliver what Angie can deliver. The way that Angie can deliver it. You could do something similar, you could get pretty close, but you can't be me. You just can't. No, I can't just,
Brittany Herzberg (18:38):
And that's what like, that's what people are buying at the end of the day. It's you. No, it's me. Exactly. It's, it's the other people. It's like the person listening, coming up with the thing like they're buying you, they want to work with you. Mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (18:47):
, you are special and unique and the world needs what you have to offer here.
Brittany Herzberg (18:52):
Period. End of sentence.
Angie Colee (18:54):
End of sentence. Yes. Mm-hmm. . There's another mic crop. We're going, we're just gonna have mic. We're
Brittany Herzberg (18:59):
Grabbing mics. We just need, we just need like paper mics so we didn't drop .
Angie Colee (19:03):
Yes, I know. Throw them all away. Um, but the funny thing that I found about that was that is, you know, and I'm not, I'm gonna try not to give away too many secrets of his business cuz I don't think that's fair. But if you've ever been through his program, you've seen that he teaches a bunch of different launches. How do you think he came up with those launches? Right. It wasn't always him, it was people that went, what if he did it this way or I tried it this way and here's what happened and now he's got different ideas that he can test mm-hmm. , but he had to put out his idea first. Mm-hmm. and other people had to react to it and decide, this works for me, that doesn't work for me. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna see if I can sell. One of my favorite was I'm gonna see if I can sell a five figure offer via email only with no funnel whatsoever. Mm-hmm. and he did it. Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (19:46):
, I believe it. You
Angie Colee (19:47):
Did it. Mm-hmm. . So like you could do whatever you want to. You just gotta find a way to make it happen.
Brittany Herzberg (19:52):
You do. And the one of the really surprising things that actually brought me to tears with my launch was I, I do have such a support group of people around me and I nope, I'm not gonna say that I resist asking for help often. Yes.
Angie Colee (20:08):
I
Brittany Herzberg (20:08):
Feel you. I am working on not doing that. So with this launch, I was definitely in a season of leaning into help and asking for help and reaching out and I was like, you know what, let me just make a list of people who I think might be willing to talk about stuff that I've done and not like I've done something for them. So like, I'll I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. But just like, yeah, I know that they believe in what I'm doing. I know that they would support me. So I was like, let me just ask, I think I asked 35 people, 30 and these are some pretty big names. 30 said yes in one way or another. They supported me. And not only that, I had one person offer to create something for the training. I had somebody else offer. She was like, do you just, do you wanna come on the podcast?
Brittany Herzberg (20:50):
Are you gonna be launching this again? Why don't you come on my podcast and talk about it? I had somebody else who was like, do you wanna like take over my Instagram stories? I had someone else who's, again, big name, I made it in a PS of her email. And then I had friends emailing me about ending up in her email and they're like, how did this happen? I'm like, I just asked. Yeah. But like, the fact that I kept getting yeses literally brought me to tears because I was like mm-hmm. , people do care. People are there, you know, talk about working in a silo mm-hmm. , but people were there and that meant, that meant more to me even than making money with this launch.
Angie Colee (21:20):
Oh yeah. I'm so glad that you took that step too. Cuz I think that's one that we all tend to talk ourselves out of. Or maybe I'm just projecting here, but I'm from the deep south that I'm a woman and there's kind of this, uh, cultural pressure to like, I'm gonna figure it out my self. I don't need any help. And as if asking for help somehow makes you weak, weak. Mm-hmm. . But the weird thing is, and I I wrote this down too about giving in receiving is that energy has to flow. It has to flow. Giving and receiving their, their flip sides of the same point. You need both. Mm-hmm. . So if you are the person who freely joyously, blissfully gives and supports and lifts up to others, and you are unwilling to receive mm-hmm. hope from others, you're stopping the flow, stop it.
Brittany Herzberg (22:07):
Yep.
Angie Colee (22:08):
And by stop it, I mean stop blocking the flow , but like, get out there and ask for help. You might find that it, it helps you on multiple levels. Not only by getting your offer out there, getting support, but reminding you that it's easy to get locked in our heads stuck in between our own ears and feel really, really alone when we are tasked with creating the work inside our heads. Right? Yeah. So getting out there and reaching out for help and having so many people gleefully go like, yes, do this. Do you wanna do this? Do you wanna do this? Here's an option. I'm gonna offer you this, I'm gonna help you with that. Uh, wow. Talk about like a great mood boost. A great ego boost. And not only that, it helps you get it out there in a big way. Yeah. Oh
Brittany Herzberg (22:48):
Yeah. Right. I was like saying thank you to those people. Like it's just not enough. Mm-hmm. , it's just not enough. But I'm also very enough proud of me for asking for help and doing something that feels so foreign to me.
Angie Colee (23:01):
Mm-hmm. that deserves a lot of celebration, just asking for help. I feel like yes, she's pat herself on the back and you don't get to see it, but I'm celebrating . Um, there is nothing wrong with asking for help because the worst that somebody could say is, no, let me, let me go ahead and clarify that for you. The worst they can say is no. If they flip out and they go beyond no. And they decide to reign scorched earth and do dramatic things, hint they never do. But just in case they did, that's all about them and what they're going through, through. And they're the ones that look like an unhinged lunatic for having an outsized overreaction to a simple, I'm sorry, I can't help with that. Good luck. Yeah. I'm over here rooting for you. Right. But like most of the successful people I know in, in business, they just don't waste time and energy going around trying to like the Karens of the world. Yeah,
Brittany Herzberg (23:52):
I know.
Angie Colee (23:53):
Are you actually successful though? Like, you're spending so much time and effort just trying to people off and make people upset that I have a hard time believing that you've achieved much in this lifetime. Amen. Just saying. Yeah. Just saying. Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (24:05):
We, we would like to see your resume with your, what, what was it? Your style something something. Yeah. Style tips.
Angie Colee (24:10):
Your style Profile.
Brittany Herzberg (24:11):
Style profile. There we go. Uhhuh.
Angie Colee (24:13):
I totally didn't. The hair, the angular haircut and the really chunky highlight,
Brittany Herzberg (24:19):
Not to mention black u v .
Angie Colee (24:20):
Oh yeah. This is Tan City. Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (24:24):
Uh, I love it. I'm here for it. So yeah, I mean it was very, that part was very humbling to have that happen and I'm very grateful and I'm just like, I'm so glad that I did it because I also have like students going through the program and I'm getting feedback and I got, we were even talking about like the whole program got kicked off by a question. I sold all my spots the first week even though the cart was open for three weeks, the, the, the middle week and the last week I got really good questions from people who were continuing to think about the offer. Hmm. And many of them were like, and we'll see what happens. Like no one's ever like held to this, but many of them were asking questions and they would say, okay, I'm in. But probably next round mm-hmm. mm-hmm. like this round isn't gonna work for. And that's fine. And even if they don't buy totally fine, they ask some really great questions. Yes.
Angie Colee (25:11):
That's fantastic. And I think, you know, there is kind of an ickiness in sales and stuff like, and why most people like shiver when you talk about making sales, uh, this, we're not talking about sales and the slimy used car salesman, you know, crusher, uh, forcing people to do something they don't wanna do. Context. Part of sales is recognizing that no is a valid answer and if somebody's not ready, no amounts of me convincing them and forcing them is actually going to benefit either of us. Right. Because that is turning, I, I said it in another episode, but I really love it. Like that's flipping the mission. I'm, I'm, I'm going from being mission-centric and about helping people to being me-centric and I want them to close cuz I want money. Right. And any time that flip gets switched toward me versus the mission, all the vibes get wonky in the worst possible way. And it sucks. So like yeah. Refocus on the mission and maybe the mission is that they're not ready right now, but they legit one and next time. That's great.
Brittany Herzberg (26:04):
Yeah. And I, I found another tangent for us to take road.
Angie Colee (26:08):
Yes. Do it.
Brittany Herzberg (26:09):
So there, there recently and, and previously when I've shown even like a tiny bit of interest in a program and I've had, maybe I'm interested in the program, but that's not what I want to invest in right now. And I've shared that with people. What I totally don't like is the person going, oh, but like, don't close yourself off to this option yet. Or like, maybe come to this thing and do this thing. And I'm like, no. Like mm-hmm. , I, I said not right now. So it just feels like my biggest thing is I want people to feel seen and heard. I wanna feel seen and heard. That is a very not, I feel seen in heard situation. Mm-hmm. . And it totally taints like possible future things because you're like, but but remember that time
Angie Colee (26:52):
? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's like a, a, a fond of saying, I can't even remember where I heard it, but des desperation is a stinky cologne. And when you're coming at it from that like, I need to make the sale, they can smell it on you friends. Like a, like a shark smells blood in the water. It is not pleasant. Mm-hmm. , it is not the, you know, pepe la pu floating on the air after something that smells really good type thing that we want. Uh, what how you get, you know, people floating on the air after you because they smell something great versus desperation, uh, is by not really needing any one thing, any one sale, any one client, any one project. And you do that through a combination of things. One, you know, like faith in yourself and your support network work as you tapped into mm-hmm.
Angie Colee (27:38):
. And two, also being financially prepared to the, the extent that you're able. Right. We all come from different backgrounds and different savings contexts. I haven't always been great with my finances too, but I've found you're much more willing to take a surprising amount of risks in your business if you aren't risking your rent. Mm-hmm. every time you try something new. Mm-hmm. . So like having money and savings is critical. Call it to fu fund stands for exactly what you think it does. Live it, love it, love it. Always, always pay money into that fund because that gives you the freedom to walk away from anything that's not serving you. So. Yep.
Brittany Herzberg (28:10):
Mm-hmm. and even, I'll even say this if you're able to, what worked for me with massage, with copywriting was always like, okay, I can get you in in a couple weeks. Yeah. It was always like, I'm gonna say this, it's gonna sound sleazy, but it's not how I mean it, but kind of like acting like you don't need the person. Yeah. Because you're gonna have better results by acting that way than you are if you're going to act desperate. If you, if you act like everything's cool and everything's fine and you truly are approaching it, like you want that person to make the best decision for themselves that is felt Yes. For years after . Yes.
Angie Colee (28:47):
So
Brittany Herzberg (28:47):
Is the desperation thing
Angie Colee (28:49):
, I think that's the situation in which fake it till you make it truly applies. Yes. And it really bothers me when folks take fake it till you make it to extremes. As in like being flat out deceptive. I have not lied to clients. Even when I was very, at the beginning, like I said, I put in a resume, I waited tables, here's how that connects to your writing chop that you wanna hire me for . I didn't give it a different title and pretend it was something other than waiting tables. I just showed them how what I actually did connected to what they wanted me to do. And so there is a way to be genuine and not misleading at all and not have to fake these things. I think the thing that you have to fake is exactly like Britney said, sometimes it's the confidence mm-hmm. and pretending that you're a lot more confident that you are, that you don't need this as much as you do. Because that's where eventually you wake up and realize, oh yeah, I I don't need this, this is fine. This this is great. Um,
Brittany Herzberg (29:44):
One day is actually true .
Angie Colee (29:46):
Yeah. One day. It's definitely true, but it's never true if you're lying to people, you know, like, no.
Brittany Herzberg (29:52):
Yeah. And that's the part that you definitely have to be careful of.
Angie Colee (29:55):
Yes. So this is great. And you know, one thing that I wanna dig into too is because, so you put this together mm-hmm. , you threw it out there fast, you broke all the rules of launching, you still sold out. Mm-hmm. . Would you say that your first attempt at putting this uh, new program out there is absolutely a hundred percent perfect?
Brittany Herzberg (30:12):
Oh yeah. I mean, totally. No, it's not at all. not is not at all. Um, I, sarcasm is like my second language. I'm very fluent. Uh, no. Mm-hmm. . It's not perfect. I'm sure there's typos in there somewhere. I had a friend who is a UX designer. Like, I had her go through it and she had some suggestions. I am asking my students for suggestions, I'm gonna go back and look through it. So it's like, it's not perfect, but it's out there. Same thing with my podcast. Like my podcast, my friend Crystal, it started because we were like, Hey, we should record the conversations that we have because maybe someone out there can, can learn from what we're learning from mm-hmm. , we're over 12,000 downloads in about seven months. Like, it's going great. People like what we're doing, but we didn't overthink it. Mm-hmm. . And if we had, if I had let my perfectionist tendencies come out, like we probably wouldn't have launched the thing yet. .
Angie Colee (31:07):
Oh yeah. I I totally get that. The, uh, the, the pressure to get it right, especially from folks out there that just kind of, they build a platform on nitpicking. If you miss this one thing Yeah. That's the, that's gonna be the downfall of your entire business. No it's not. Um, if you give a about people and you're constantly trying to get better and you're constantly trying to evolve and improve, um, news Splash, it's, I have a hard time believing that you're gonna fail in the sense that we all believe failure happens, which is that you fall down on your face and wait for death because it is,
Brittany Herzberg (31:44):
But wait, forgot the flame. There's nothing flame left. You forgot the flames, flames,
Angie Colee (31:47):
Flame, everything burst into flames. The leaves are piling up on you. Bicyclists are running over you like some sort of sentient speed bump. It's all over. I failed one time. never getting up again. Never
Brittany Herzberg (32:01):
no
Angie Colee (32:03):
Hope. And if you, if you're doing this and you're going, you're prone to that kind of thinking again, love and, and a little bit of laughing at you cuz I've been there too, like with, with some tears in my eyes. But like, get up honey, get up, get up and try again. It's okay.
Brittany Herzberg (32:17):
Yeah. Cuz your people are out there and they want the solution that you have. Mm-hmm. , you just have to get it out there.
Angie Colee (32:24):
Yes. And you have to be willing to get it out there as version one. Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (32:28):
. And that's, oh, that's, that's the point that I was gonna make. As you were saying that stuff I made me like my ego needed to say, Hey, I'm co-creating this with you mm-hmm. . So I needed to say that to like, justify some of the stuff that I knew was gonna happen that I knew was gonna go wrong. Um, I don't know if I said beta around with with this launch. Yeah. But I definitely said I want to co-create this with you and it's true. And every time I check in with people I'm like, how's it going? Are you noticing any kind of like pitfalls? Any opportunities? Any, is there anything that you're like, oh, I wish she had included this and I've had like a couple of suggestions, but not many people are Yeah. Seeming to like the program. So, I mean, that's nice, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to rest on my laurels.
Angie Colee (33:09):
. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, I love that I, you know, I would challenge the word justify. I think that if we reframe that to setting expectations Hmm. For folks, you can do a lot, you can do a surprising amount with expectation setting. And I cover this in, in some coaching programs that I do. So that was a kind of a shocking thing. In one of my friends' programs, I teach client management, which is basically about communication and boundary setting. Right. And that's one of the most popular modules. Like, we'll have two and three hour long calls where people are just throwing client situations at me and we are dismantling them on the fly and figuring out a way forward. Um, and there's this strategy that I like to, uh, use, which is also gonna be another ridiculous visual analogy, but here we go. I love it.
Angie Colee (33:51):
It's called the Elephant in the room strategy. . You see it? I see it. Hmm. Both of us pretending that it's not there makes you think that either I'm crazy or like I'm stupid, or like you start to doubt yourself. Mm-hmm. . So if there's a chance that somebody might see something that causes pause or gives them doubt, you just call attention to it and say, Hey, that thing over there, I see it. Mm-hmm. . And we got, we gotta plan to address that. I just wanna let you know. I know it's there. Here's how we're gonna tackle that. Moving on. Right. Often that is enough to get people back on board with you. You don't need a great big elaborate plan. You don't have to gloss over it. You don't have to like put a weird fake wall over it and pretend like it doesn't exist at all. Just address it. Tell them what your plan is and move on. So like you tell them that's, to tie it back to what you were saying about expectations. You tell them, I'm co-creating this with you. Mm-hmm. , that's expectation setting in a nutshell right there. I'm not releasing this program that I've been working on for 10 years now, and I have finally got into a state of perfection where I'm ready to release it on the world. . I don't know why I'm on dramatic voices today, but that's what I'm doing.
Brittany Herzberg (35:02):
, I showed up on the Rain Day. . Yeah. .
Angie Colee (35:06):
It's the first podcast recording of the day too. So it's like full on energy. Love it. Well, you unleashed it on the world, but you unleashed it, you know, from your position of readiness. And this is like, it's more important to me to get this out there to people and start helping them right now than it is to like, create the legacy piece on the first go rounds.
Brittany Herzberg (35:27):
It's just, it's not gonna happen. Mm-hmm. . And I don't think that earlier on in my career, I'm very glad that I had massage therapy first. Like I already had that business. It had already been going for, I don't know, seven or eight years at that point. And then I jumped into copywriting. So I knew a lot of these things. I knew the client expectation setting. I knew how to run a business. I like, I I had a good foundation. I'm very grateful and I don't know if I would've approached things differently if I didn't have that business experience. I'll never know and that's fine. But like, I knew it wasn't gonna be perfect. So it's like, okay, we know this isn't gonna happen. What do we do? We let them know we, we named the elephant. We just like say hi. Ready wave, keep on walking.
Angie Colee (36:06):
. Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (36:06):
. Like, it's fine. And they're happy. They're getting, you know, I thought that I put together a, a Google doc that was like pretty respectable. I was like, okay. Like I could probably make this cuter. Everyone that's gone in there, oh my gosh, it's so organized. It's beautiful. I'm like sweet. Mm-hmm. .
Angie Colee (36:24):
Right. Half the time that we, we convince ourselves that we need like 20 extra steps where what we've already done blows people outta the water in the best possible way. Mm-hmm. . And we just don't give ourselves credit for that because, because we can't. Cuz we're stuck in our own heads and we don't have perspective until we Right. Put it out there and let other people interact with it. , are you sensing a theme to this episode? Folks? Like,
Brittany Herzberg (36:47):
Think I found it think I found it,
Angie Colee (36:51):
Put it out there. See how it goes. Give yourself what feels like an impossible deadline. Show yourself what you're capable of. I mean, I imagine that you felt like freaking Wonder Woman when you got it launched in that amount of time and it sold out in
Brittany Herzberg (37:06):
The first week. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . I did. And like, I, I was really hesitant to ever create something that I needed to launch. Mm-hmm. , I'm in this world. I see other people doing like launch copy. I see the things and I feel like all I hear are scary stories. Yeah. So I was like, nope, I'm good. Never launching and don't need that. Like, I'm good with the client work. Thank you. I'll figure out a way to scale it that way. But when I did this launch and I kept telling my, my business coach Meg, I kept telling her, I'm like, I'm really having fun. I'm really feeling energized and I'm an introvert. I was like, mm-hmm. , I'm going live. I'm doing the reels, I'm doing the stories. I'm loving it. Yeah. And she's like, yeah. She's like, you're showing up and it's something that you believe in and it's great. I didn't feel drained. I didn't have horror stories, I didn't have, I just, and I feel like a lot of that, depending on how woo you wanna get, I feel like a lot of that had to do with the energy that I brought into it. And I've heard my friend Brenna talk about this even with pre-launch. I know which my, my pre pre-launch was like five-ish days if we're
Angie Colee (37:59):
Being generous, , prelaunch.
Brittany Herzberg (38:02):
Um, but it was wonderful. And I just like, I had such a blast. And so when people talk about having this crazy, awful, terrible, bad time launching, I'm like, I don't know what you did, but I had fun ,
Angie Colee (38:12):
Most of the time I think it's because they haven't done the, the deep work. Like the, the thinking behind, uh, you know, the big four questions as I call it in marketing. Like, why you, why me, why this, why now basically is what all marketing arguments boil down to. Like, why are you the person to teach this? Why do I need this? Uh, why is this the program that's gonna help me address that? Why I need this and why is now the time that I need to, to act? Hmm. And if you answer those questions, and granted that's like a big oversimplification of a lot of marketing arguments, but basically if you answer those solid, if you answer those four questions, well you're going to have people that that buy into what you're doing. So it's, they haven't really done the deep thinking on that.
Angie Colee (38:56):
And they're attached to the outcomes. Like in a way that is, and, and here's what happens when you attach to the outcomes, like we talked about before. No one client, no one project, no no one sale. You don't need any one thing. When you do attach to that and you decide you need it, then you start making decisions that are fear-based, which means that we have now taken logic and rationality out of the window. We're just throwing at the wall to see what sticks mm-hmm. and hoping that it is going to result in that thing that's going to alleviate our fear. Whereas, you know, to become a competent and confident business owner, you've got to be able to put something out there like at some point stop iterating. Yeah. This is the thing. Yeah. It's going to go, we're gonna take a break from creating for a while.
Angie Colee (39:41):
We're gonna put it out there, see how it goes, and we can recreate later, later, after a rain break. Um, see how it goes, and then be able to step back and objectively observe, I like this. This was a win that I think I would do differently next time that I'm never gonna do again. Because that was not pleasant at all, . But like, you do things the way that you decided to do them. You know, sometimes you have to react, sometimes you don't. But you know, you come up with a plan and you stick to the plan and then afterwards when you've got a breather, you can look back at all of the steps that you took and go. That was good. That was good. That was good. Nope, that was good. That was good.
Brittany Herzberg (40:16):
. Yeah, exactly. No, I, I'm so glad that I did it. And um, there was another thing that I wanted to highlight as well, which was I sold my first spot and Meg was like, well, how are you gonna celebrate? I was like, what? Yes.
Brittany Herzberg (40:31):
How am gonna, what ? That's the thing. So I'm really glad that I had, again, like I just had the right people around me for this experience and I was in such a season of like really like healing and challenging myself mm-hmm. . So as soon as she said that, I was like, I don't, I don't know, let me go like, write down some ideas. So I ended up getting this like big vat of loose leaf tea that I have recently fallen in love with and it's amazing. And now I look at it and every time I look at it and every time I go, I have tea, I'm like, yeah. Like my, my case study training brought this .
Angie Colee (41:02):
Yes. I love that. I'm, you know, this is me giving a virtual, like double high five to MEG two because we don't celebrate ourselves enough or we set this like ridiculous bar for ourselves that I can celebrate once I have hit like right level 50,000 boss level is the only time that I can actually celebrate when I have conquered everything that there is to conquer. But no, you can actually celebrate, and this is like my life coach taught me, uh, gratitudes mm-hmm. and, uh, acknowledgements more importantly mm-hmm. . Um, so gratitudes, I think we all know, you know, I'm grateful that, uh, I'm in a house with air conditioning when it's 80 degrees in the south, but it's snowing in San Francisco. Uh, I'm grateful for my, my knees, uh, painting me because I can feel them and I can get up and walk like I'm grateful, but acknowledgements are, well I am meant to go to the gym this morning and I did get up and get my gym clothes on and like walk around the block, but I didn't make it all the way to the gym.
Angie Colee (42:00):
I acknowledge myself mm-hmm. for getting out there and moving my body mm-hmm. even if I didn't hit my goal. Yeah. So it's not quite the same thing as the celebration that we that like I love that she told you not, she basically told you without telling you don't wait until you sell it out. Mm-hmm. don't, don't set that expectation that if you don't sell out that you somehow failed. Right. The first sale is a win. The first sale is a sign you're onto something. Yes. Hell yeah. Let's celebrate and then let's use that celebration energy to keep putting it out there and see what happens.
Brittany Herzberg (42:32):
Yes. Yeah. No, it was wonderful. And and that's exactly what she said. She's like, whatever energy you have right now, just like keep that going. Mm-hmm. , because that's like, if you get more sales, great. If you don't, that's fine. And that was very much also like, you know, um, not even taking her influence into consideration. That was how I was approaching it. Yes. So it was just, it was wonderful to be surrounded by other people who had the same mindset and were in support of my mindset with that. Mm-hmm. , it was, it was just great. Like, I can't say enough good things about it. So if you have an idea, go, go do the thing.
Angie Colee (43:03):
Go do the thing. And one sale is a sign guys. Like Yeah. It may be disappointing and it's okay for it to be disappointing, especially if you had hoped for more and you tried your best to get more. It's okay. Disappointment is okay. Mm-hmm. . Feel the feeling. Don't fight it. I, I'm fond of telling people when you fight it, it's kind of like picture yourself on the beach trying to hold back a wave with your arms. It's not going to happen. And eventually a waves, the wave is gonna come along. The right wave is gonna hit you and knock you on your. Yeah. Better to just sit down and let it carry you to shore. That's what, that's how I like to think about these things. You're gonna have bad feelings in business, uncomfortable feelings, anxiety, disappointment, upset, let it wash over you and take you back to shore, then let it go and move on. That's a completely different energy from like standing there desperately trying to hold the ocean back. , which is the, you
Brittany Herzberg (43:52):
Can do this.
Angie Colee (43:54):
Yes. Just accept it for what it is. Let it wash over you. It's a, the energy that you use to approach these things to, to verge on Woo. Makes all the difference. And people they're picking up on it, whether they know they're picking up on it or not. So that, that smelly desperation. Cologne, wash it off. Take a shower, let the wave wash it off you.
Brittany Herzberg (44:15):
They let the wave. Yeah. Yeah. Salt water is great for that.
Angie Colee (44:18):
We're gonna mix all of our metaphor
Brittany Herzberg (44:20):
. We have to tie up all the looses, , . Oh this is wonderful.
Angie Colee (44:26):
Oh, this episode is my favorite. And that seems like a great place to wrap it all up too. So tell us a little bit more about your case study business where they can sign up for the next rounds
Brittany Herzberg (44:36):
Perhaps. So the next round, oh yes, there will be a next round and depending on, I haven't honestly figured out a launch date. all good. So you might be listening right in time. I don't know. Um, you can find more information of course on my website, I'm sure. I'll have a banner, britney herberg.com. If you wanna check out the actual page, you can check ou training. And that's where the IEO comes into play.
Angie Colee (45:00):
. Hell yeah. See, look at that little like excess training. Nothing goes to waste. That SEO comes into play with the new evolution. It's all connected baby.
Brittany Herzberg (45:10):
Yeah. So I can show you how to write case studies or I can write them for you. I, I love them. I love all things. Social proof interviews, testimonials. Yeah. Sales pages,
Angie Colee (45:20):
. Awesome. I have a feeling that we're gonna be in touch about that in the future too, cuz my consulting business is going crazy.
Brittany Herzberg (45:27):
Call me .
Angie Colee (45:28):
I will definitely call. Thank you so much for being on the show. This was like the perfect way to start a podcasting day.
Brittany Herzberg (45:34):
I know. I love it. I always love chatting with you, Angie.
Angie Colee (45:39):
That's all for now. If you wanna keep that kick energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you could do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the permission to kick podcast on Apple Podcast Spotify and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some.