Guy Massey - Engineer Producer

Kevin Paul Welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast channel with me Kevin Paul. In this episode, I talked to Guy Massey. Guy is an award winning producer and mixing engineer. Most recently, he's won a Grammy with Kylie Minogue on her hit, Padung. Guy started at Abbey Road and talks about how he got there and his approach to recording, producing and mixing. You started out at the University of Guilford. Yeah. Yeah. Is that correct? Guy Massey It is. I did a, uh, like a summer course there run by, uh, David Pope, who I think was responsible for the knee V series desk and the same guy called John Watkinson that used to feature quite heavily in resolution magazine. I don't know if you ever remember the guy with the long beard slaying dragons. I think his, his thing was, and they ran a course over the summer, it was a three month thing. So I came down from Liverpool. Did, did the course, really enjoyed it. Um, at the, at the end of it, they, the sort of little carrot that they dangle was that you get, um, some studio experience in a London, you know, London studio. So I came down here straight after it and was offered a gig at Abbey Road for like three months, I think, like no pay or anything like that. Um, and they took me on after, after the three months. Did you always want to go into the studio? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I was in bands when I was a kid. I started playing guitar about 14, something like that. And then I guess the first band I was in was when I was about 15. We were awful, uh, like a rock thing. What were they called? They're Stone Cold. Stone Cold, alright, there you go. We were Stone Cold. And that gave me the bug, really, because I did all the demos. Right. And there was a little studio down in New Brighton where I'm from, uh, called Station House. It was underneath the New Brighton station. And going into there was like, it was like Aladdin's cave, you know, I was just really buzzing off it all the time. So, uh, the next band I was in, I bought a little four track and started recording the demos. And, uh, yeah, in between going to uni and, um, coming back from uni and spending a couple of years back in Liverpool, uh, I just got into it and loved it. And a girlfriend at the time said, well, why don't you do a course? And she persuaded me to come down to Guildford to do that course. And yeah, got a job at Abbey Road out of it. So it's not a bad place to start, is it, mate? Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. It was, um, just brilliant. I mean, Colette, my boss at the time, she put me on loads of different sessions, you know, as a first as a T boy really. Um, and uh, I remember my first day, uh, she took me into Studio one and I took. In a, in a, in a tray of teas and Anthony Hopkins was in there and just loads of people I'd seen in films that I really loved and it was, I was like Mrs. Overall sort of shaking. Half the tea ended up on the tray. Yeah, I mean it was, it was trial by fire sort of thing in some ways. But I guess at Abbey Road there was that thing at the time where you had to, Come up through the ranks, you know, we didn't have it We didn't have to work on reception or anything like that But we had to do the t boy thing then we were tape ops and then we were assistants I didn't really engineer like an official gig probably for about four years because I didn't want to I wanted to sort of hone my craft a little bit more and I got friends bands in in the evenings and weekends and stuff like that. Were they pretty cool with you doing them? Yeah, I mean, I think at the time, you know, she obviously wanted you to learn, but not on time. Not their time, yeah. Yeah, so I would always do that, you know, there was a couple of mates bands I'd get in and I'd just learn, really. Um, because it was, you know, going from a four track to a Neve. console. Um, it's, it's very, very different. So I did, I did do a lot of, a lot of work when I wasn't working with friends and stuff. Um, and that was my definite way into it, you know, who are the people that you sort of looked up to when you were at Abbey Road in terms of, cause obviously they had a in house staff of engineers. Yeah. Were there any particular people that you looked up to and thought? What, in the studio? Yeah. All of them, really. I mean, because they were all really established. As I said earlier, I did, you know, quite a lot of stuff throughout the studio. So I was in studio one quite a lot. Um, working with, uh, some of the classical producers and engineers and I, it always used to really sort of blow my mind how they could put up so many microphones and there'd be no phase issues and things like that. I remember once I was helping, helping one of the guys set up and says, what'd you do about phase? And he sort of tapped me on the shoulder or maybe even on the head and said, don't need to worry about phase. Is that something you've always done? No, that's my constant worry, especially with drums and stuff. Yeah. I dunno why he said that. Maybe it was just he couldn't be asked. But I was Are you sure? Yeah. But it was, it was really interesting and some of those engineers were fantastic and they probably didn't like me on the sessions 'cause they knew, they knew I didn't really want to be doing classical stuff 'cause like, you know, guitar music or rock and roll or whatever you wanna call it. Sort of where I was at really. But I did learn a. On those sessions. I'm not just about, you know, the craft, more about etiquette and all that stuff, because that's so important. Yeah, and a lot of people that I've spoken to in this series have spoken to about the structure, about how the dynamics of the studio and the people within them. Yeah. What, what, what are your thoughts about that, dare I say, old school style and how important it is for that to exist and to be maintained? Well, I think maintaining is probably quite hard to do these days because there's so, so many studios have shut that have that traditional route, I guess. Yes. I think it's really important because you get I think you weed out people who don't maybe maybe they're trying it and they're not sure if they want to do it So go into a long period really sort of weeds out the people who do want to do it Yeah, and they're passionate about it. I think so if you can I mean, I remember assisting for horrendous hours for years. Yeah, of course. Um, like, like we all did back then. Because that was, that was part of it, really. I mean, I remember talking to people who used to work at Salm, and they had to do night reception duty and stuff like that. Yeah, for three months you'd have to do that before you even got a job. offer of a job if there was one. Yeah. Before you were even allowed to make the tea. So, so I think it's, it's really good. Very kind of character building in some ways. I sound like my dad, but you know what I mean? It's like you'd be in there, you'd be working 18 hours a day, sometimes for three weeks, no days off. You wouldn't see your mates, you wouldn't see your girlfriends, whatever. And it didn't, it didn't matter. Because you were doing something that you had, there was a, an end game in mind, I guess, in lots of ways, which was either producing or engineering or just being in a studio with all the things that that, you know, entails. So, I think with, with guys and girls these days who want to get into the business who don't go through some of that, I think they miss out, really, on some of the, the etiquette. What do you think you learned from, from that? Apart from the obvious thing of, I want to do it, because that's something that you learn fairly quickly, as to whether you're committed to the environment, because, you know, I always say that you sort of wake up one day and think, oh, I'm really tired, I haven't slept in weeks, I don't want to go in today. But if you drag yourself in, you're probably gonna go pretty far. Yeah. Whereas if you don't get yourself in, you probably aren't. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what else do you learn? within that, that traditional structure. I think maybe one of the things that I thought was quite important was how, you know, when you're locked into that sort of bunker for long hours, you sort of learn a lot about yourself and how, uh, how you react with other people in close proximity for long periods of time. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, you know, you have to have a personality that, You know, it's sensitive to other people's needs. And, yeah, especially with artists who are, you know, uh, anxious or, you know, don't have huge amounts of self confidence. You have to be nurturing to that. I mean, as a T boy or an assistant, you don't. have to, you know, cause you're not producing, I guess, but you, but you have to be very sensitive to their needs and not upsetting the apple cart. You know, I've, I've, I've been on sessions before where the T boy or the assistant would, would make comments about the arrangement or the lyrics and stuff and just facepalm, facepalm, you know what I mean? It's like, you don't, don't do that. You don't sort of, you know, give an opinion if you not ask for it. And even if you ask for it. You probably have to, you have to, sort of, gauge very carefully what you're going to say. Take three seconds and think, I mean, when things are going well, everyone can do this job. It's an easy job to do when things are going well. Yeah. When things aren't going well, that's the test of your, your mettle. Yeah. As it were. You know, and, and sometimes you, you can be asked for an opinion and, and, and really what they're seeking is a boost of confidence, not an opinion. Yeah, yeah. Or a reason to bail. Or a reason to bail, but it's not probably our job to give them that reason. Of course. Of course. Yeah. That would be, that would be like, okay. You know, there's a big pile of blame. Being laid firmly at your door there, if you were to be the one that delivered that. Definitely, and I think as an assistant there as well, because, you know, there were a lot of quite high profile gigs I did when I was, you know, first starting out. And I started pretty late, I was 26. Well, I guess I've grown up a bit by then and and did have a handle on how to to deal with people I think around at that time as well I was working with a lot of sort of quite high profile producers who had very different foibles If you if you know what I mean, some would be really sort of what's the word I'm searching for Um, Yeah, and sort of very Boise in their approach and you know, when you're in those situations for long periods of time, it can descend into that a little bit, which I'm really, I'm fine with. But then when you come out of the studio and you've been in that situation for a long time, it's like incarceration. It is a little bit. If you've been on the project for three months and you've lived with five people, all blokes testosterone running high exactly you know and then you step out into the real world yeah you really have to say okay right i'm back in the real world now and it can be slightly sort of agoraphobic inducing yeah agoraphobia inducing do you know what i mean yeah for sure there's times i've left if i've been mixing here for a long time you walk outside and everything seems like it's rushing away from you because you've been staring at that or tweaking or whatever for you know 12 hours a day i find that quite alarming sometimes as you say you know you don't see anybody often I guess, in some ways, technology has changed that. Yeah. Because we don't have to spend 18 hours in the studio. Yeah. Don't have to finish the record there and then. And also, on the flip side of that, there's no studios where people used to congregate. Mm. That's the, you know, that's one of the things about studios, isn't it? They, they have a, a community. Yeah. You know, the, everyone convenes in the studio to make something. Yeah. Whereas now. Everyone's making things separately. You're here, artists are there, even managers and A& R people are somewhere else. Yeah. And you're meeting virtually on the internet, or by mobile phone even. And so it's changed the dynamic of how records are made. Um, some for the better, sometimes not for the better. Yeah. I was just sort of wondering, um, What do you think that's had in terms of an effect on, on your personal structure of how you make records today? Just the technology. Well, obviously it's made it a lot easier. Yeah. In some ways. I mean, when I started there was no computers in the room. Yeah. It was all computers. You know, either, uh, analog 24 track or Sony dash. So the advent of, of tools and logic and all the rest of it for me as a freelancer and having a space like this is, has been amazing. Cause you know, I've got a space here that I can, uh, and have made records in. I still want to be in a proper studio, you know, conks five minutes away. And I would, uh, Uh, I would use Konk and Snap to, to do, you know, the lion's share of the work, if I can, of recording. Because you need a proper acoustic space to make the sort of records I want to make. Snap's the one down at Funky Drunk, isn't it? Uh, yeah, Manor House Studio, Snap is, yeah, it's ten It's just coming up to its 10 year anniversary. They've got a lovely Neve, Conk's got an amazing Neve, and a beautiful space, loads of fantastic mics. Why would you not want to be in there? You know, I mean, I've done drums here, but I don't want to. So I think, you know, I'd still want to use a proper space to make the bulk of the recording, but then having a space like this and having, you know, now sort of everything, Sort of living in the computer as it were. It's so much easier to do overdubs and most vocalists love to come here and record in that booth. You know what I mean? Because it's so much more, you know, in the evening, all the lights on, you know, it looks cool in here. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, I guess, I guess it's less imposing than a big studio, which can sometimes make, make an artist a bit anxious, you know? Yeah, for sure. The studios are, You know, while we thought that they were really cool places and lots of bands actually thought I don't like going to the studio, it represents something like a place where they have to deliver. Exactly. But I think on the flip side of that, I remember doing, um, uh, I did an album with Stephen Fretwell down at Abbey Road years ago. And then we went into Abbey Road to do some demos a few years back. Um, he walked into the room and he said, do you know what watches walking into this space makes you want to be a better person or a better artist? So that's something about the history of those spaces I think can be really, you know, uh, um, empowering for an artist in lots of ways, as well as also the feeling of being in a big space, like potentially it being, oh, I'm a bit nervous about it. What sort of a producer did you want to be when you were starting out? I don't know if I ever wanted to be a producer really, really, I wanted to be an engineer. Okay. What sort of an engineer did you want to be? A good one. Um, what, what makes a good engineer? I don't, I mean, that's, I don't, I don't know the answer to that question. I mean, I can tell you what I like about it. I guess having the background that I, that I had, which was using dynamic mics into a full track. And then. Being Abbey Road, um, was a real sort of illustration to me that, well, a couple of things really that whatever tools you have at your disposal, you can make something that's pretty good. And if you can't, then there's something wrong with the song, or how you're producing the song, or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So, it's not about the tools in lots of ways. Obviously, if you go to Abbey Road. You've got the best mic collection in the world and an amazing console and, and all the rest of it. You can sonically spice things up, but I think at the root of it is the, the idea that it's not about the tools you have. It's about how you approach a song, but I guess for engineering, you know, I would listen to obviously the Beatles and, and lots of that stuff. Cause it was all in the house, you know, when I was a kid and, um, Johnny Cash and Burt Bacharach and all that stuff. And I'd listen to those records and be like, you know, how'd you do that? And so much of it is about, obviously, the song and the band and the musicians. And then it's about the space and, I was talking earlier about going into that little studio in New Brighton and that was like, it was like an Aladdin's cave. It really was and I just, I just didn't want to leave. I guess engineering wise, I don't know, I just wanted to be able to And I think most engineers and producers would say this, it's like you want to just to have the ability to experiment really. I mean, obviously some people want you to go in and just get a sound, you know, like a good drum sound, good bass sound, uh, let's start tracking. But if you have the ability to experiment with stuff, uh, especially, you know, mic placement and processing and distortion and saturation, all that sort of stuff that, uh, Maybe you don't want to throw at things immediately, then you can come up with, you know, so many different types of things that sounds, um, which then the artist can bounce off. But obviously, because budgets are so constrained these days, you don't really have the luxury of doing that. Well, that's, that's obviously what's great about small spaces like this personal spaces is that you have the ability to decide. How much you want to invest in a project. Do you want to work another day in the studio? It doesn't cost 1, 500 pounds. Yeah, I mean I find sometimes when you get, uh, if I work at Konk, which I do a lot, uh, if you, if I'm doing a development stuff with a band or, or working with an established artist, I, I often put a lot of mics around drums and, uh, generally it'll be, Go on to some sort of comment and I'll be like, well, I'm, I'm not covering my ass. What I'm doing is, is having, having, if suddenly you want a drum sound to be completely different, I've got all the ammunition here. It's not that I'm sticking a ton of mics around a drum kit because I don't know what I'm doing. It's like, because I want to be able to take, you know, all the ambience out, all the close mics, and then just have a PZM and a Yeah. Or a biscuit or whatever, do you know what I mean? Right, yeah. So, but you might never need it. Um, but if it, especially if it's just an engineering gig, I tend to cover my bases. And then if the producer will say, Well this is the sound we're going for, we don't need any of those, Then I'll just delete all the tracks, you know. I guess knowing a room really well, and knowing where the best place to put drums is, Is all well and good, but You know, it is nice to experiment, and if the time is there, uh, I always want to do that. Where did you get that curiosity of experimentation from? Is that something you saw a lot as you were coming up? Or was that, are you just inquisitive by nature in terms of developing sounds? I just, I mean, I love pure, pure sounds. I guess a lot of the music I work on, maybe I don't have the opportunity to do that so much. Again, with the advent of, you know, Pro Tools and, and, and really, really good, exciting plugins, you can, uh, you know, sort of within a couple of mouse clicks, achieve something sort of pretty extraordinary. But I prefer to do it, uh, you know, in the studio and play with pedals and things like that to achieve things that you've got in your head. Yeah. I guess after the fact, it's easy to do it like that, but then it's just a plugin and it feels slightly Like cheapens it somehow? Maybe. It depends. It depends what sort of music you're making, I guess. And if it fits the production, then I guess there aren't any rules either. No, for sure. No, there's definitely no rules. There's guidelines. But yeah, if it sounds good, I guess it is good If the production is, it takes quite a while to. Accept that as certainly for me. It took me many years to accept that principle if it sounds good, you know, from the point of view of like what that you weren't sure about your your abilities or what just wasn't sure whether what I was hearing what I was feeling is what's there, you know, I think we've all had that when you start mixing records, you think, well, it does sound good. But and there's this inclination to you. Change something for the sake of changing something because you've got lots of time or you saw somebody else do something and you think, oh, well, I haven't done those things. Yeah. Therefore, it can't be as good as the person that's done those things. Right. You know, and that idea of trusting yourself. Hmm. That takes a bit of time to refine, doesn't it? Absolutely. Uh, yeah. I mean, when, when I was at Abbey, I, I. was constantly questioning my abilities. Um, and got used to get really nervous before sessions. Um, I still get nervous now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it's a particular artist, you think, okay, absolutely. And that's good. I think a certain amount of sort of butterflies is good. Yeah. But having a confidence of, um, of walking into a studio and, um, You know, knowing a room or not knowing a room, just knowing what you want to achieve after discussions with a producer or if you're producing it with the artist. Um, you know, what you want to achieve. I think that's definitely, my anxiety around that has definitely lessened. Cause I feel, I just feel confident in what I do now. And it's taken a long time, you know, I've been doing it for 25 years. Uh, maybe more. So, yeah, always learning something. Always. Yeah, you still, you still have that inquisitive nature within yourself. Absolutely, yeah. To check yourself, you know, is that the right way to say it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, to check, check what you're doing. Cause I, I, I still learning today. I'm still reading articles or looking at plug ins. It's something that you need to do. As a artist. Yeah. You know, cause we do create art. We create stuff. Definitely. I mean, I, I, I would never walk into a place or present a mix and say it's my way or the highway. I would, I would definitely invite comments. How do you deal with rejection? It's not very well. No, I'm fine. I'm fine with it. Really? Because it's happened to us all. Yeah. Whether they, and I'm not saying that they don't like it, but for They want to change it to their way. When you talk about demo itis, or you listen to a monitor mix, and you listen to it a million times, then you get a new mix, and you listen to it twice, and you're like, I prefer the old one. Often times I think you prefer the old one because it's so familiar to you. And if you listen to the new mix a million times, you go back to the monitor mix and say, what the hell are you thinking about? But then sometimes there is something captured in a monitor mix, it's sort of throw away or whatever, I'm not as going to see this. Yeah, a little bit of innocence maybe. Yeah, exactly. So I understand that sometimes. I mean it did, I guess I was a bit like, oh. Then again, you know, if the artist isn't happy with it, the artist isn't, they're not happy with it. So it's fine to, I think I'm okay with rejection, mostly. It's not easy. No, it's not. Apart from the fact, not necessarily, not that, oh, you don't like my stuff. Who do you think you are? I think more, it's like, oh, have I done something wrong? Yeah, yeah. For me personally, that's always like, oh, have I made a mistake here? Certainly early on. Yeah. And you sort of think, oh, they don't like me. Yeah, I know what you're saying, but that's about, um Insecurities and I guess in some ways and insecure. Yeah. Well, I am too in lots of lots of ways But I think I think with mixing especially it's like you what you got to appreciate everybody listens to things in a completely different way Yeah You know, I do a mix and you do mixing in and you and you know If you started from scratch, they'd be completely different but equally, you know be equally valid. Yeah Then it would just depend on what the artist wanted to achieve. Yeah So, no, I'm alright with it, I think. I'll ask, I'll ask again. We spoke about the engineering. What makes a good producer? You do production. You didn't want to be a producer, but you do a lot of production. Yeah, yeah. I guess, I guess because of the way things have changed and the way the whole, you know, um, music business has changed in the sense of, Studios shut in and people want in almost like a one stop shop, you know sort of engineer and produce a mixer I sort of fell into it. I guess I don't know by the by the time I left Abbey Road Maybe I thought that it was something I would like to do But because I love engineering so much, it felt like it maybe be splitting your focus up a little bit too much because I think with production, you've got to listen and come in a sort of a different way. And I think a good engineer is always obsessing about stuff like that. the snare sound or the bass sound, whereas the producer is looking at it in a completely different way, in more of a broad spectrum, um, not really honing in on sounds. They might say, Oh, the snare sounds shit. Can you do something about that? Change the snare drum or whatever. But I think if you're, if you've got that head on and a producer's head on, Uh, and then you're editing it and comping, you know, you have to split, spread yourself quite thinly. I mean, I don't mind that. It just makes things a little bit more labor intensive, I guess. Because I guess I am a little bit of a control freak as well. Like, I was talking to a friend the other day, and we were talking about getting someone into edit stuff. Yeah. And I was like, well. None of it's gridded or anything like that. And it's very personal, I think, editing. Especially drums and bass together and things like that. It's like, well, they'd have to have a, you know, a spreadsheet about which text to use where. And we haven't got time to do that. Why don't we just do it ourselves? I don't know whether that's control freakery or just like It's quicker to do it this way. Well, that's part of production to me. Yeah, exactly. Why give it to somebody else to do? Who's not going to maybe realize you're, what you're hearing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's just quicker to do, I guess. So from that respect, I guess I sort of, not fell into it, but you know, it became a necessity. And, you know, I'm equally happy, uh, in a recording studio recording, working with other producers, which I tend to do less and less, I guess, because, um, it seems to me that, that producers these days, I guess, are engineers as well and don't really need to have a, an outside engineer. And a lot of bands are producing their own stuff, aren't they? They're confident enough Yeah. Most bands have some experience of recording. Yeah. Even if it's at a very basic level. They do, yeah. Unlike when we first started in the studio, where, you know, if you wanted to record something other than on a four track, with a cheap microphone, you had to go to a studio. Yeah. Yeah. Nowadays, You don't. In fact, the studio is the last place you go to, to record anything. You try and avoid spending the big bucks, unless you really need to. And therefore, a lot of bands have ideas of what they want. And are empowered in the process. Therefore, that traditional overseer is slowly becoming, not a wiped out, that's probably not true, but slowly, you know, they're having to change, that role is changing. Yeah, I think that old school role of, yeah, they used to be the, you know, producer, an engineer, maybe a, an editor. When, you know, Pro Tools became, um, or Logic came to the fore, there would be a little team, I guess, and, and, you know, some people are still doing that, I guess, but yeah, I think, I think with bands who sort of are delving, you know, dipping their toe into engineering and production can definitely come up with stuff because I'm assuming quite a lot of them don't have like a technical background in engineering and stuff like that, and they can do stuff and suddenly it's like, I would never thought of doing that and then they present something to you and it's like how did you get that sounds? Yeah, but also then again often, you know, some of it comes back to you and it's a bit shonky and you have to work on it How do you work on it? What what are your approaches for dodgy guitar sounds? And well, I mean if I'm working with a band and they're producing stuff and I'm gonna mix it. For example. Yeah, I'll always ask them to record a DIY. Okay for guitars and bass because You So you can re amp stuff? So I can re amp stuff. Yeah. So that would generally be one of the approaches I would have with them and not to over compress things because you can't really decompress stuff can you? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You might get sort of a bit over excited with how stuff's sounding in the context of what they're doing at home when you sort of separate it all out and it's like super processed it can be quite hard to tame I guess. Yeah. Do you have any ways in particular that you'd like to deal with that? If it's super, uh, just lots of, uh, Soothe plug ins. Soothe. That's a really good plug in, Soothe, actually. Brilliant, yeah. I've been using that quite a lot. Things like, you know, if you've got a really spiky acoustic guitar and things like that, they can be really helpful. If drums are really smashed, you just have to make them work somehow. I mean, if they're really If you find a lost cause, I'll just replace, replace elements, you know, kick and snare, generally, maybe the toms. Yeah. You can generally get away with the cymbals and they're not too distorted. Um, but then that's, that's a whole nother amount of time in it. And I do it all myself. So how long did it take to do a mix? It depends really five hours. I, I read and I do most of my really sort of like good work in four or five hours. I don't use templates I don't get sessions a lot. A lot of people work in Logic that I work with, so I've just got files. I'll just start a new session, bring them in, listen to all the elements as I'm creating a session. I mean, a lot of my mates use, like, templates. But I try not to do that because I don't want to just put the drums through whatever you put the drums through. I know this, I understand the reasons for people doing that, and I'm not knocking it at all. I just prefer to Treat each element as I hear it and you sort of think about okay, what does this song need? Yeah Yeah because you start to get as you're playing it through and setting up the session and probably listen four or five times and you get An idea or just ideas about how you want the drums to sound and etc. You know, I've written a lot of the songs The really sort of, not, I don't even, I don't mean technical, I mean sort of artistic stuff is done early on, I think. And the rest is getting the vocal right. Is that your guiding point when you're doing a song, a mix? Are you feeding off the vocal? I put, I get the vocal in really early. Yeah? Yeah, um, and then try and move stuff around it. What about your mix bus? Is that in early? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, generally I'll have like this dangerous and the overstayer on and then maybe a bit of, uh, the Roger Mayer if, if I need that, and then mix into some digital stuff as well. And depending on what sort of music it is, I'll change the digital mix bus a little bit, but I'll always mix into it. And that's generally on from the beginning. Not doing like a huge amounts, but you can, I don't know, just like to push into that bit, you know, I mean, I'll definitely do it. It'll be a day a mix unless it's like a huge session. Yeah. And then I tend to like, cause I got this place, I tend to work from like 10 to six. Um, because I think after six o'clock my ears are burnt out. I don't listen loud really, but I just get, they get, my ears get tired. Yeah, of course. Pretty quickly. Or if I want to work longer, I'll just open another session and do, start working on something else. Yeah, jump over to another song. Yeah. Give you, refresh your ears a little bit. Yeah. Well, that's the beauty I think of, you know, when you do have clients all over the place, you can, you know, if it's unattended, which mainly it is, you can, you can mix two or three different things a day. And then, you know, put it to one side and then come back the next day and finish it with fresh ears. Yeah, for sure. Which I, I like the aspect of that. That you can do, you can be sort of multitasking, doing lots of different projects. That's good for you. Do you think mixes should take two, three, four days? Do you think you get anything out of spending four days on a mix? Or, or longer? We've all worked with artists that have taken weeks to mix a song. Do you think there's any value in that? I guess it depends. You've got to ask yourself why it's taking four days. I guess with the, with the way Pro Tools doesn't limit track count and things like that, you can have a production that's like enormous. Yeah. For me, at that point, it would be like, well, why is it so big? You know, why can't you commit to stuff? Do you know what I mean? So if you've got 150 tracks and 50 of those are backing vocals, The first thing I do is bounce them down to two or four or something. Do you know what I mean? Something a bit more manageable. Yeah. Um, but then again, sometimes often you have to go back because you bounce them without, you know, filtering them enough or whatever. But, but it's sort of like when artists are presenting you with something, If it's in tools and there's a, you know, there's a basic mix there, I'll often call them and say, is that, you know, those backing vocals sort of where you want them. I just want a manageable session really. And after that initial five hours, sometimes what I'll do is stem it all out to like 12, 20 stems or whatever, and then just mix those, which feels nice. And there's a confidence there, I guess you get to a point where you think, yeah, this sounds good. Save it, stem it all out, and then just balance with the stems. Is there a process or piece of equipment or something that you do or try to do in every session? Like recording or mix? Let's start with recording. Something that I think I was taught very early on was to use overheads on drums as an overall picture of the kit. And I've just fallen back in love with Coles. So 4038s as overheads, uh, for me are Always a star when I'm getting drum sounds. Yeah, I guess so that would be my sort of go to Thing like for drums, you know, you sort of put those up and listen to the kit like that So I never use them a cymbal mic. So you try to use them as like a picture of the whole kit Obviously with the kick, you're not gonna get the full welly with with those but I'd often have another mic you know towards the front as well, but That's something I generally always do. And, um, that becomes, you know, every other mic is then a spot mic for the kits. You know, I really like working like that with drums. I mean, so that would be my normal thing in recording. What about mixing? You got a favorite process or thing that you try to do? No, not really. As I said earlier, I generally, You know, start with a mixed bus that I'm familiar with, which will be this analog chain and into a certain things on, on the digital side, but they'll, they'll evolve if it's, if it's not right. And it depends what it is really, you know, if it's a really heavy track, I'll use the, the Al smart instead of the dangerous, just faster. And you know what I mean? Yeah, but that, that thing has become my go to because it just, it just seems to do everything I want to do. I love it, but it can, it can really make stuff sound beautiful and soupy and glued. You know, it's such a powerful piece of kit. If it could have a desk of that, I'd be a happy bunny, but I don't need, but I'm in a studio with a desk and that would be amazing. But no, I think there's nothing, there's nothing sort of generally in my, in a setup that I would. Winge if it didn't have, you know, as I said earlier, I think you can stick a pair of 57s as overheads and you should be able to make them work. Yeah. That's all we've got. That's right. What do you try to avoid doing in the studio? Uh, when I'm recording, I try to avoid making the client hang on or, you know, I try to do things quickly. So I try to avoid any delays. So I always like to prepare. I'm a bit of a, uh, anxious preparer, if you know what I mean. So I'll talk to the assistants way before, make sure all the mics that I want are available. I'll try and get in on the day of recording, you know, at least an hour before the session starts. I always set the protocol session up myself, label the desk, all that sort of stuff. I just have all the things at hand. familiar with, I guess. So, you know, if you're just doing drums for the day, when the drummer comes in and he put the mics at zero on the desk, you just sort of know you're halfway there. Do you know what I mean? So I tend to avoid delay. I don't really like to overcomplicate things. Sure. You mean, technically? Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, if something doesn't work, you just use a different channel. I wouldn't boo about it in the sense of. Why isn't that working? Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's not the end of the world. Let's just use another channel. Yeah, it's a thing of Just you know being ready If there's a problem not to worry about it too much and move on and find another way doing it without causing a scene I guess When I started, you know, there were there were people that something didn't work would have a right old, you know, go Yeah at the assistance, you know, and I'd be like, okay Why are you doing that? It's not this person's fault that this is happening. Do you know what I mean? So just to avoid any aggro, really, when it's not necessary. Um, because you know, at the end of the day we're, we're doing stuff I feel like we're doing things in a very privileged position to be in recording studios making music. Cause you could be in a, an office job you despise, you know, 12 hours, eight hours a day or whatever. Being in the studio for 12 hours recording is a dream for me. As long as it's going well, I'm always just amazed that I can make a living out of doing something that's sort of, A hobby and I love it's become obviously more than a hobby, but I always feel really, really privileged to be doing it. Great. Thanks again, Guy. Nice one. Cheers. Thanks Kevin. Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of what's coming. And just before you go, let me point you to the Sound On Sound forward slash podcasts website page, where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a Mixbus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.