Caesar Edmunds - Mix Engineer, Producer

Welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast channel with me Kevin Paul. In this episode, which was recorded in 2020, I talked to Caesar about his starting at Assault and Battery Studios working with production legends Alan Moulder and Flood. What I really like about this interview is Caesar's enthusiasm for the studio. Caesar is a Grammy Award winning engineer and in 2020 he won the MPG Breakthrough Engineer of the Year award and since then he has gone on to work with artists such as Beach House, Queens of the Stone Age, The Killers, St Vincent, Code Orange, Wet Leg and The Last Dinner Party. I hope you enjoy the episode. Caesar, nice to meet you. Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you too. Good. Is this the first studio you worked in? Yes. Yes. This is like the first studio I worked in. I just sort of found, I got Alan's email off a friend. He gave me it and then I basically emailed him saying like, Hey, could I come do some work experience, get food, do teas, do coffee, clean, like everything and just came in about like seven and a half years ago and just stayed. Wow. Yeah, exactly. I've never left since. It was my first two years. Literally, you've never left. I mean, yeah, exactly. Well, it's not a bad place to start. No, it's definitely not a bad place to start. Why did you want to work in the recording studio? Were you, have you been a musician? Did you always want to work in the studio? I sort of, when I started out in Liverpool, in LIPA, I was doing like a very short diploma course where first half of the year it was music and second half of the year was sound technology and I was in between the both, I didn't know whether I want to do this or do that. I want to see what's on the other side and when I got there, I realized a lot of people, a lot of guitarists are 10 times better than me and there was no point like trying to be, just trying to be a musician. And I just thought like, I just went into a studio and just went, this is it. I feel at home and just decided never, just decided that this is my career. Cool, do you play, are you in a band? Yeah, I'm still like, no, I'm not in a band or whatever, but I do play guitar. I've just recently started, because we, being an engineer you just listen to music all the time, you can feel somehow detached from music. So I'm trying to, at the moment, I try to pick up guitar at home just like to make me feel like why I love music. Like as a kid, like playing the guitar, just sitting around, kumbaya, singing, singing along, playing some music. Just enjoying myself. Yeah. Because I find it's quite important. That relationship. That relationship. Yeah. Like, why did you want to do, why did you do music in the end? Like, why did you start, why did you pick this as your career? Because yeah, it can be quite hard, I guess. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So came from Singapore. Yes. Why come to the UK? So because I didn't have enough money to go to America. I mean, did they not have colleges and places in Singapore or in Asia that you could have gone to? Yeah, there is, I got rejected for all of them, all the music schools. They said I wasn't good enough. That's their loss there, isn't it? They missed out, right? Yeah. Pretty much. They all just said like, sorry, you're not what we're looking for. And just pretty much then I just came to LIPA because at that point I was just thinking like, oh, Paul McCartney is cool and there's like quite a lot of like cool people like Mike Crossy. Alan Moulder was like, patron as well, I think. So yeah and there's quite a few co-producers that were involved. So I just thought, sounds like a pretty good school. Yeah. And you obviously enjoyed your time there because you went on to win the Sennheiser award. Yeah, I did. What was the award for? Is that like for your work? Yeah, I think it was just overall work. You think? Or you're not sure? No, I think it probably is. It was just, I've actually no idea. They just told me I won an award. I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. And what does the, it's the course that you do, was it focused on the studio and production? No, it was not just based on like studio and production. It was based on like, it was all aspects of sound. So we learned like technically like all physics and everything you had to do all that, like sound theory. And like you had to, you were in the studio and then they brought you into live sound and then they got you into doing film music and they get you to do like all kinds of like all aspects of sound, because like, they don't want you to just go in and just be a studio guy and then just come out. That's it. Like, funny stories, when we started, like, the class. There was 30 of us and 30 of us want to be studio engineers by the end of the day, there was only four, when our course finished, I think there was about like four people left that still want to be in studios. The rest of them just went like, nah, this is not for me. I mean, I guess it's a good place to learn if you do want to be in the studio, because the studio is a very particular environment, isn't it? When you first started here, were you just working all the time? Yes, I was working all the time. It was crazy when I came here. The first day of the studio, I came in, I just came in as like a, like 24 year old, 23 and then I just walked into the studio, just sat at the back and Alan was mixing Foals Inhaler, so I thought that was pretty good introduction. Yeah, that's a great start, right? Exactly. So they put it on, you start, just press play. It just blew my mind when the chorus came in. I just went like, I'm never ever leaving like this place. And then a week later, Jimmy Page walks in, we were doing celebration day. I just thought like, oh my God, work experience. I'm on work experience. You're kidding me. It's obviously not always like that. No, no, no. It's not always like that. Jimmy Page isn't always coming. You're probably not always working with the files. No. Do you still put the same amount of energy and effort into working with a lesser known band than you do with the gods. Yeah. Yeah. I do. It's like, it's all the same. Like, it's not that whoever that you're working with, you put in more effort or like, you know, it's just like, oh, he's a name that you put in more effort. It's just all has to be the same. Like when you pick like something to work is you have to believe in it a hundred percent. It's not like you can't give 90%. Like, you know, 90 percent effort and then like someone else, like working with Falls, you give 110, like, it's all 110%. When you started working with Alan here, you was at Work Experience and then what happened there? Did you, did you automatically get a job here? No. Or did you have to go back to Liverpool? I did, like, uh, so let me just tell you what happened, like, in, when I started over here. Basically, LIPA, like, trained me enough to deal with, like, the, the SSL computer and all. Like, so I was just recording. I was doing stems when Alan finished at like 1am, he'll leave and then I'll stay up till I'm in the morning. It's like stemming like for Zeppelin to do like the five, one tracks. So he's just staying up to like insane hours. And then once that was done with Zeppelin and all of it was done and dusted, Alan went to America to do Hesitation Marks, I think, with Nine Inch Nails and then sort of he took, I mean, they did it for quite a few months basically and then I just had to go back to uni and basically, I had to finish uni before Alan finished Hesitation Mark. So I had to finish all my coursework and everything and try to like rush it. And then when he was like, he called me, I was like, yes, I'm ready to come back. Fantastic. Yeah. So he said yeah. He basically said yeah, he offered me a place to like, to come back to do. That's brilliant. You stay. Yeah. And that's incredible. And then, then you worked here full time. Yeah, pretty much. Like I've just moved my, like brought my bags down from Liverpool and that was it. You were here. Yeah, I was here. So when you came here as an assistant, what were you doing for Alan? Were you just working with Alan? Yes, I was just working with Alan. It's sort of, I just suddenly became, I guess obviously Flood's in the building as well, but like somehow I became Alan's guy rather than Flood's, because Flood had other people in his crew and just sort of, I was more suited to where it's mixing. Is that where you feel comfortable, mixing? Uh, yes, I do feel comfortable. I feel comfortable just in a recording studio. It feels home. It doesn't matter whether it's like recording or mixing. It's just like, whenever I'm in the studio, I feel at home. Yeah. Give me an example of a typical day when you first started with Alan. You said you were doing the stems. Yes. What happened when you moved on from that? What happened when I stopped doing that? Yeah and, you know, say, how long were you working doing the stems and the support for Alans stuff until you know, what happens and where did you go? Oh, I stopped doing recording stems, like until like, maybe like a year ago, but like pretty much, or like two years ago, pretty much I was doing everything by myself. What else were you doing? Well, you, you weren't obviously just recording stems. What, what was a typical day? A typical day was prepping sessions, just getting everything ready, getting the session, like how he likes it and just like doing minute like little tweaks or, because me and Alan, we worked together for quite a while. So some tweaks, like when someone sends like a comment, if it's not too big of a tweak, I can handle them. So if you said, turn the vocals up. Yeah, exactly. Turn the vocals up and then I'll like, I'll be able to do it because it's not that difficult, but yeah. So I do many tweaks like just prepping sessions and just like this, general and then, because Alan gets to a point now where he like, it just, because the thing is that with engineering sometimes, you just want to hear the song and when Alan's in front of the computer sometimes, it just, you just, because you're thinking about like the technical and the technical and the music, which, I mean, like, it's like a marriage between the two, but then he can, when he can separate himself from that, like, so I drive like the computer for him, like, he'll tell me like, okay, like, turn this up, turn this down and then he could just like, just concentrate on just hearing it. It sits back a little bit from the technical. Yes, exactly. Just sort of allows you to operate the computer and stuff like that. Yes exactly. He still makes all the decisions, but it's just like, he just, just gets his brain off looking at the screen So he could just concentrate on yeah, the music. The music that's coming out of the speakers. That's a lot of trust. That is a lot of trust. How do you handle working with someone of Alan's stature? Were you nervous at first? Are you still nervous? Uh, maybe not still nervous because now he's like, you know, he's like, he's a mentor and everything. But at first, I was very, very nervous when I came over here, because honestly, I think I probably grew up on Flood and Moulder music. Yeah. Like you're a big fan of their productions. Yeah, for sure. It was just like, sort of like all the Nails, Pumpkins, like, you know, just Depeche Mode, like they're all what I love, like what I hear like every day, what I listen to. And then I've just got a job here. It was crazy. It's just like, it's like the perfect place because the things that I listened to, like all that music and it's part of me. Yeah. So like, just, so I was really nervous when I started, but I mean, obviously you can't be nervous if you see them every day. Yeah. What happened after that? You're, you're in your own space now. You're in Caesars Palace. What do you do here? Um, sort of, I do, I still work with Alan quite a lot and we still like work together most of the times. Now I do get to do stuff myself. You're mixing your own projects? So yes, I am mixing my own projects and that's how we're like starting to push me to do projects by myself as well as working with Alan. You've obviously learned from one of the best mixing engineers. Definitely. How do you approach your mixes? What are you doing when you first get a track? I send you, if I'm asking Caesar to mix my record, what do you do when you first get it? First when I get the track, I listen to the track. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear down the track For people that are not sure, 'cause a lot of people listening wonder how to start approaching mixes, you know and I think a lot of people struggle with mixing records. So what do you do? I give you the song and what do you do when you load it up? You load it up, obviously you prep it and you lay it all out and then what are you doing after that? I was so pretty much like, I just listened to the track and then I just start working methodically. I start working on the drums, then bass and then start putting it all together and then you'll see me actually, very embarrassingly, I do take a lot of naps. It's just like, I'll leave like the track playing and I'll just like absorb and just get it in my head. That you're living in like the, it sounds so pretentious to say it, but it's just like, I just absorb the track and just like, just pretty much let myself go into like a, not like a trance, but like, it's all just napping and it's just like, you just imagine like what it can be and then just jump on it, just start working. It's pretty much like, there's no one approach that I would say like, if you get a Caesar makes you get like a, like a loud guitar, like whatever, it's just sort of, it's just very hard to say, it's like, it just, it has to feel right. It has to feel right. It has to feel right. Okay. That's quite interesting. Because the thing is that, I mean, I went to LIPA and LIPA taught me to be technically excellent, but then the thing is that coming over here, learning with Alan and flood, they teach me like the, they teach me how this, you know, you have to feel the music, you have to feel it, you know, it's just not just about technically excellent. You have to try to do both. It being technically excellent and the song has to be right. It's all about the song. So do you apply the same processes in every mix? Like completely? You have like a template? Yeah, ish, I guess. Yeah. I guess ish. There's not really like a, I don't think there's quite a template yet, but like, there's still, it's just processes and stuff that you start doing. Like, I think like, basically I love just like, there's a point where if I can see myself singing like a karaoke version of it, it's like, yes, you're winning. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you do drum replacement? Replacement? No. Augmenting? Yes. Enhancement? Enhancement. Yes. And and how do you do that? Are you using like a software program? I know Alan uses MIDI maps. Yes. Are you along that same path? Yes, I am along that same path as well. And like, yeah, it's just to augment, just to add to what, because what isn't there pretty much, I would say is, yeah, sometimes like with hindsight, I guess you would record some things differently.Yeah. So like some things are just not there where you want to want to push it. And like, yeah, I do do. Yeah. Because I mean, you know, some bands are recording on lower budgets or they're recording in spaces that aren't conducive to recording. They might be recording in someone's cellar, you know, with a load of microphones that they've just grabbed, you know, a load of condenser mics. So often we're given sounds that actually aren't in a place that we want them to be. So I'm just quite curious as to see how you approach that. So you said with your drums, you argument them, but what about guitars? Say the guitars are not recorded very well. The playing's great, but the sound isn't great. What, what would you do then? How would you, how would you approach that? I would probably say like, just put them, putting them through like my, like a few boxes, like distortion boxes or like maybe like reamping them or something like that, just to like add like a new space and that's quite tough, unless you have the DI, just to get it to sound right, I guess, but yeah, I would put through, sometimes guitars through the overstay and saturator, and you know. You guys are big fans of the Audio Kitchen stuff here, aren't you? Yes, and Audio Kitchen as well. Brilliant. Yeah, they're fantastic amps. Don't tell anyone. No, that's our secret. In your mixes, you talked, you spoke about feel. A lot about feel, which I think a lot of people when they're first starting mixing don't really think about. No. Because they're too worried potentially about the technical. Yes. Yeah. A lot of people are sitting there going, you know, I've got to use this plug-in or I've got to do this, but they're not listening to the track. How do you manage to separate? I mean, you spoke about going off and, you know, having a rest and just chilling out. Are there other things that you do? Do you take a lot of breaks? Do you just keep working around a particular part of the song? Do you go from the start and work all the way through? What do you do to sort of, does it just come together magically? Magically, I wouldn't say it's more like, yeah, I mean, like I do cycle around parts, like say the verses, the choruses, I would just cycle the whole chorus over and over again until like the cows come home and then you have to hear the transitions and everything. And then like somehow magically you're just like, ooh, this feels right. It's very interesting to talk about transitions. How'd you make the mix work between transitions? What are you doing? Are you using automation? Yeah, yeah, definitely, there's a lot of automations. A lot of automation. Yeah, exactly. Pushing stuff. So pushing stuff into, you know, choruses and, you know, verses, like everything has to, you know, just sort of just move. Yeah. Cause that's, I think a lot of people neglect that they're not, like I say, they're not listening. Technically trying to make things work. Trying to be technically excellent, but technically excellent is boring. Like, I love technically excellent, but if something is just technically excellent, it just bores you to death. Like, as in could be technically accent, but what about the song? Yeah, what about the song? Yes, exactly. Which is something that I learned from Flood and Moulder. Like, I can't say how much they've taught me about that. Because I always try to, like, oh, and then they, to EQ it, to perfectly everything. And then they said turn around, it's like, Mm mm. What do they say about that? What have they taught you about that? It's an unquantifiable thing. So it's like you can't really say like, what makes a good song? Like, you know, how does it make you feel? Like, you know, it's very hard to say that, isn't it? Yeah. I guess you're right. Exactly. Because like, yeah, there's like the million dollar question, I guess. But it is up to the engineer to make it a million dollar song, isn't it? It's up to us to produce that magic. What do you have over your mix bus? Uh, depends per project. Like sometimes it's the SSL fusion. Sometimes it's just like the Obsidian, Trismatic Audio and sometimes it's just the glue. Sometimes it's just completely a hundred percent in the box. Sometimes it's like just Ozone, you know, so it just depends. And what defines your choice there? Do we go back to the song again? Sort of like this kind of like whatever that song suits, whatever piece of gear suits the song. Sort of like in a perfect world, there'll be like, in a perfect world, I'll have like a Neve mix bus, I'll have like a, you get what I mean? Like you have like so many options that you could just, I guess options, having too much options can be bad as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure.Yeah, I think that's one of the things about plug-ins, isn't it? You've got too many options. Oh my God. Yeah. You've got too many options in the plug-in window. Definitely. And you're not thinking about the music again. Yes, exactly. That's why, like, I mean, that's why we were saying like earlier, like the process, like Alan trusts me to like drive the computer and just, he just removes himself from like the, Oh my God, there's so many plug-ins. And would he say, would he sit there and sort of go, why don't you try such and such? Yeah. He would say like, just put this on, like, you know, just put, and then you like, you know, you, you'll like turn around and like fiddle with it and then like, it'd be like, okay, sweet. And then just like add a bit more, a bit less, you know, just like, so it's like, yeah, it's just sort of like just directing. It's just like, just listening to like a song because yeah, it's quite an impressive thing to watch, actually. Yeah, sure. I can imagine. Favorite piece of equipment in the studio? That would be my obviously modular channel. Is that mono? No, it's a stereo processor. It's Desert Island for me. Desert Island, okay. right So is it like an enhancer? Like an all exciter? So if I tell you everything that it has, it's a mic-pre. It's got mic-pre's, which we're recording through right now. It could be really distorted by the way. I have no idea. It's got DI's, like instrument in line process like this. It's got EQs, there's insane like great filters, there's a distortion box, there's a compressor, it's in a 2U unit. Wow. Yeah, I know. Okay, so there's that. What about plug-ins? Do you use something a lot or go to? What's your go to? What's your favourite compressor? Uh, probably like the compressor on M that's quite a... That's come up a few times. Exactly. That's my favorite. Why'd you like that compressor? I don't have to think about it. Like, cause you, I mean, like you use like a piece of gear so much that like, sort of, you know how to get results with it. That like, it's just instant rather than just like having to like, oh, like if, when you get like a new piece of gear, you have to like learn how to use it. When you use something like so long, so much that you just don't even think about it, it's just intuitive. You mentioned there learning how a piece of equipment works and that's, that's really important, I think when you first start, when you're first at the university and you're presented with all of this equipment. But we're taught technical aren't we? What sort of advice can you give to the people listening about learning a piece of equipment? What should they be doing? Uh, using the ears. Using the ears? Yeah, rather than just using the eyes, because nowadays it's so easy to just look at your plug-ins and you know, have audio analyzer, you know, spectral analyzer and just use your eyes to make, but it sort of has to be like, I can't remember who was saying this, but like, you have to be sort of a bit, it can be a bit of both as well, but like use your ears more than your eyes for sure. Cause spectrum analyzers on EQs and stuff. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because now it's becoming a big part. Like if you are using like. I guess like the fan filter Q3, like DMG, audio equilibrium, you know, there's, you can just mix with your eyes and that's quite dangerous, I guess. Two, great equalizers really, both of those are fantastic. Things that you like to avoid in the studio in terms of when you're making a record or mixing a record or recording a record, what do you like to steer away from. Shortage of water. Shortage of water? There you go. It's as simple as any. Yeah, exactly. You'd be surprised, a great session is when you're constantly having, you have like liquid, just like drinks as in not alcohol, but you know, like fluids, water, coffee, teas, if they're constantly coming at you, you just feel comfortable. And that's the most essential part to any sessions, I think, is so like everyone thinks, I mean, obviously the pieces of gear have to like work and everything, but like I can't stress enough how much, like water helps with your brain. Health advice by Caesar Edmunds. Forget about mixing, it's about... Wise words. I think that's some wise words there and I think that's a great place to leave it. Yeah. Okay, so much your time. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound.com/podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a Mixbus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.