Arturia - 20 Years Of Software & Hardware Development

Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast with me, Sam Ingalls. I'm very pleased today to be joined by the founder and president of Arturia, Frederick Bruhn. Welcome, Frederick. Frédéric Brun Well, thank you very much, Sam. Hi, everyone. Nice to be with you today. Arturia, if you don't know, celebrate their 20th birthday this year, which is an amazing achievement in such a fast moving world as music technology. So congratulations, Frederic. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, it's, uh, it's been a journey, uh, but we're many companies, uh, of course in this case, uh, but yes, for sure. We're glad to be one of them. I wonder if we could start this interview by going all the way back to the beginning. Um, perhaps you could tell us a little bit about your background before you founded Arteria, and what gave you the idea of starting the company. Yes, for sure. Um, so, uh, at start, we were two friends. We were, uh, in the same university here in Grenoble, which is in the southeast of France, and, uh, I was studying computer, uh, I was studying, sorry, physical chemistry, and Gilles, my partner, was studying computer science, and, uh, we were both in the same orchestra. This is where we met. Um, so, um, you know, throughout time, we started discussing about, uh, music and technology, and Gilles really was the one The most interested, um, in that topic, he went after, uh, this, uh, this university years to IRCAM in Paris where, where he did a master's degree. And at the same time, I went also back, uh, to Paris where I came from, um, to work on something different. I studied law, actually, after, uh, my engineering, um, uh, studies. So, the two of us met again in Paris while Gilles was at IRCAM. And, uh, that was a point where he started working. On a first, uh, software, um, called, uh, Continuo, which was the name we, we, we gave it. Uh, which was a sort of, uh, reactor in a sense. You could create, um, patches by connecting modules, oscillators, filters, etc. And that was all, uh, done in, uh, assembly, so code was assembly and there was a, a, a layer of Java on top of that. So that was the start of the company because while, uh, Gilles was working on that, uh, he was wondering what he could do with it. And, uh, we were a friend that was willing to start a company. So eventually the two of us, uh, started working on this and, uh, I, uh, I took, um, the, let's say the more the business side of, of the work and Gilles, uh, kept on developing Continuo. So that's a pretty ambitious product to start with, especially in the early 2000s. What did you learn from developing this product? Well, that was interesting because Gilles had big ideas about that. It was really, uh, some sort of, of, um, uh, workshop, uh, environment that he created. So the assembly was, uh, uh, compiled on the fly. So you will sort of, uh, create your, your patch. And then there was a compilation to optimize really the way the code was working. And, uh, from there, uh, really used, uh, the, the, the sound engine. I was a bit complex and to me as I was new to this, uh, industry, I was not a user at all. I come, you know, I was playing the violin before that. Um, it was a bit intimidating and, um, I started doing some research. I went to stores. I went, uh, discussing with, uh, importers back then in France, companies that were importing. Uh, different products. There was one called Koblo and these early days, there were several ones, of course, Propellerhead was already an important player, just like Steinberg and many other ones. Um, a native instrument was there too, et cetera. And we looked really at the market and, uh, things I did not really see, uh, the outcome from Continuo. We started working on, uh, discussing and working on, uh, on a more, um, consumer oriented product, uh, based on Continuo. So Continuo was the backbone of our first product that was called Storm. Uh, and Storm was, uh, Storm's ambition was to be, uh, an all in one music studio allowing everyone to, to create music easily. Uh, and for a limited cost and back then that was still a challenge because products could be expensive access to studios where, uh, was still important to really make music and they were expensive to, to really, um, reach out to and, and, and, and also rent, uh, and not so easy to understand that they are still today. So our idea was really to make music creation a bit more simple. So right from the beginning you saw the potential of software instruments and synthesizers running as software on computers. Yes, that's what really was very much part of our vision at first. It was really this idea that technology will make music creation accessible to much more people, which eventually happened. And we saw the same trends in other domains. Of course, look at, uh, for example, uh, videos and the way you can, uh, create a video, edit it, et cetera. Um, this sort of democratization happened in many domains, photography as well, or architecture. Um, and, but we, we, we, we saw, yes, indeed, that, uh, um, software and, and technology will most likely, uh, make, uh, things different and, and, and allow people who are not necessarily Uh, good with music theory, or do not have access to certain, um, instruments and products to, to make music by themselves. And that was really the goal of, of Storm. So if you look at the first version of Storm that was out, uh, in the, I think very early 2000. Uh, the product was a mix of different cultures, so there were some parts coming from the sort of game industry. Uh, there was a sort of fun part to, to Storm, uh, and I think I was, um, I, I took a large part in, in setting the direction, which was not eventually so good because people wanted to steal something a bit serious to make music. Um, and some parts were quite advanced. So we had a time stretching in real time and pitch shifting in real time, which was quite advanced back then. Uh, there was sonic foundry acid doing that already. Uh, but we had a very good algorithm to do that as well. We had synthesis, sound synthesis. So storm was really about software since, as a, as you mentioned, but whereas also willing to go beyond, we already had. work on effects. You could record yourself, uh, you could, um, also, um, add certain things. We even had back then, uh, sort of scratch modules that was inside the studio. So you could load samples on two, uh, turntables and start scratching while you were making music. Um, so it was quite fun to use and, uh, and we worked on that for a few years. Well, that's, a lot of that stuff is, uh, features that we take for granted now, but back in 2000, 2001, that must have been very much ahead of its time. Yes, back then we, we had several challenges to, uh, to face. Um, one was the, the sort of, uh, uh, doubt or, um, people were not sure a computer could really... Um, bring what they were expecting. So notably when it came to sound quality or of course, um, going on stage, uh, back then we were doing a lot of marketing explaining that there was a sort of comparison that was possible between a real instrument and a computer with a controller. And, uh, we were to prove ourselves. So a lot of things were about, yes, look at. Uh, how much you can do in terms of polyphony or look at how much you can save in terms of money. So a lot of these companies, I remember, uh, an ad from Propellerhead really showing that they were sort of garage full of gear and they were trying to explain that, you know, with reason you had, uh, pretty much not the equivalent because of course you don't have the equivalent of hardware. Uh, with, uh, a software mimicking the hardware, but you had some things that in terms of benefits could be compared still. So, we had all these to, to look after, and then there were, of course, the, the technical challenges, because Um, there were questions of CPU, uh, we have, we had to be very careful with that. Uh, there were a lot of conflicts on the computer as well because you could have your antivirus starting. So we had to, to look after those different threads. Um, and of course, uh, latency, polyphony, all those things were, uh, much more at stake than they are today. Um, and then, you know, once the marketing and the technology, you still had to educate also the, the, the customers. So, uh, we were selling our first products on, uh, CD ROM. I remember that, uh, and when we came with the second version of STORM, uh, we only had a few hundreds, uh, customers. I don't remember exactly, maybe 350. And I remember we sent a free update to all of them, we made a CD ROM and we put that in the 350 envelopes and send that to the early adopters of Storms. That was really a different time, yes. And following Storm, Arteria probably became best known to most people in the music technology world for recreating classic synthesizers in software like the Jupiter 8 and the CS 80. Um, once again, that must have been quite hard to convince people that that was actually possible and that these software instruments could sound like the hardware originals that everyone loved. Yes, that was, uh, that was a big thing for sure, um, when we started working on the first, uh, uh, software recreation of a classic synthesizer that was the Moog Modular, um, and, uh, we went quite early to Bob Moog himself and, uh, introduced the idea, so it was a bit sceptical at first and, uh, uh, but it was very, very benevolent, very, very nice and, uh, welcoming, uh, and then I went to Asheville, I showed him an advanced version, Of the product, and it was really surprised by the polyphony, what we call do really on the computer. Um, and uh, yes, we, we went through this sort of pattern with a lot of our, um, of the musicians we, we were trying to reach out to. Um, but the good news still is that for many, uh, there's a link, natural link, of course, uh, between music and technologies. They are part already of this industry using, uh, and they've seen, they've witnessed, uh, what happened. They had witnessed what happened the, the past decades, uh, with, uh, for example, sequencers and, uh, a certain number of things related to media, et cetera. So a lot of people were very open still to novelties and innovation. So I did not feel, I never heard actually anyone really having a lot of, of, uh, critics, uh, besides some natural ones you could expect on sound or stuff like that. Uh, but once they tried it, and when we came with Moog Modular V, that, that really, because we had also the endorsement of, uh, of, uh, Robert Moog, um, and, uh, also some very nice endorsement by other musicians such as Isao Tomita, uh, we used to play the Moog Modular a lot, uh, but people like Klaus Schulze as well, they were quite thrilled to see what we could, uh, do with, uh, with the computer and, and the software, and that helped us a lot to get Um, interest and, uh, and some legitimacy with, uh, with the rest of the market. So there were challenges, but we did not really realize, uh, um, what was really at stake when we were, while we were working because we were working hard and we were quite isolated here, uh, in France. We sent the products and, uh, and just with those feedback, we felt that it was working quite well. Wow. And since then, Arteria has modeled most of the great classic analog synths and quite a few other keyboards too. Which of them was the most satisfying for you personally to recreate in software? I think the first one still have a special place in my heart because it was really, again, a lot of questions and a lot of pleasure to see the outcome. And what we realized back then was the need to really... Uh, make sure things were really done right and I'm not saying we've always done everything perfect, but we're trying, but we realized that to be, uh, really serving well, uh, the musicians and to be, uh, successful, we had to reach a certain quantum of, uh, of, uh, uh, things when we come with a new product and, uh, and really make sure that the sound quality is there, uh, the interface is really the best it can be. They're going to mix, et cetera. And this first experience, because we were quite demanding, um, Uh, back then, and we had also to seek, uh, uh, BOMOX approval, et cetera, uh, took us to this, uh, this level of, uh, of, um, expectations, uh, with ourselves. And um, and that's, that's something that I keep in mind as a moment that was important for the company to really, um, learn and develop this culture of, uh, being careful with details, et cetera. Um, and then the other ones I'm trying to remember, which one was really... Um, unique. I mean, some of them have a special history for me, uh, because, for example, he has a Jupiter L, uh, Jupiter 8 I met with Mr. Kakeashi. So to me, that was also an important moment. Uh, and, um, that was also inspiring to have this discussion and showed him, uh, what we were doing. Uh, so Kakeashi san was the founder of Frolond and, uh, and, um, and a very important figure. I read his book and that was also a For me, a big source of inspiration. And then the other ones right now, I feel, yes, all of them have something unique. When we have a story with the founder, uh, like in the case of the CMI, for example, or other ones, for sure, it's, it's adding some sort of emotional and, and, and we feel we are really, we have to make things really right. So as far as I'm concerned, this is, these are the ones that will, I will. Really, uh, have in mind, but maybe developers here, um, will, will think differently because they maybe have challenges that I don't remember and they are really proud of, uh, of what they've done. Hmm. As well as developing synths for Mac OS and for Windows, Arteria also makes soft synths for the iOS mobile platform. Are those basically sort of slimmed down versions of the Mac OS instruments or do you need a different approach to designing an iOS instrument? Well, there are two, um, two different, uh, uh, solutions we have on iOS. So one is just a simple portage of our existing software instruments. Um, and, uh, for those, uh, it was a partnership with a company which was. Uh, and which work with other, uh, uh, companies in the industry like music, for example, which was an Akai, uh, willing to port existing Mac and PC software onto iOS and get some royalties for that or paid some way. So we saw it was interesting to be there. Uh, the investment for us was not huge, and we didn't know exactly what will happen with, uh, iOS. Will a lot of people turn to this platform to make music? We thought it was wise to go there, so we, we run this development with them, but they are really the ones who, who ported, really, our software there. And the software is quite close to what you have on, uh, on the computer. Um, the difference now is that we keep on, on working on our existing software instruments. So with new, each new version of the V Collection. We remake, uh, a couple of engines when we think it's necessary because now we have more CPU, we know more, we're better at it, and we also bring improvements to, um, the other ones that may not be as, as important, really reworking the engine entirely, but we still do some work. We don't do that on iOS because we don't have the mastering of the, uh, the software itself, and also because, to be honest, the iOS solutions, are not so successful for us. I mean, we we did not generate much revenues for that, but we from that, but we did not also works so much on that because we did not feel very engaged by the community. So the iOS apps have been a bit beyond for us. The second category, because I started with, that is just, um, uh, the iSpark app, which is more advancing, has been a lot of sounds put into that because we felt that these products. Toward the iOS audience will have more success and it was important to really take the most of the interface, the iPad interface to really make sure that musicians could do something with it. So this one is a bit different, but still this is not a solution that we are really maintaining a lot to be honest. I see. And was it always the plan that Arturia would start to develop hardware instruments as, as well as software? Was that the plan from the very beginning? No, no, at first we did not think we will do that. Um, that came really from the, the users. Um, and the, early on some, and we, we, we mentioned that some, uh, some user adopt about, uh, doubt about, uh, uh, the ability to take, uh, software on stage. So we, we were receiving some, uh, Emails, uh, from people saying, you know, we love your mug Miller, uh, recreation, but can't you do Iraq version of that? Um, can't you do a hardware version of that? Etcetera. And we were also at a time looking at the way people were using our software, and we understood that the mouse and the computer was was great. But we felt there was also a limitation. So we answered this, uh, this problem by, uh, creating controllers. But we also felt that in some context it was better to have embedded, uh, solutions. So we started working on that in 2004. Um, and our first product, uh, Origin came out in 2008. Uh, but originally we did not plan on, on, uh, uh, embedding our software, uh, this way. Had we known the difficulties, probably we will have, um, hesitated a bit more, but we didn't really know. So we embraced the project with , uh, some sort of enthusiasm. Uh, and uh, it took really, you know, five years to get through, um, origin. Um, and that was really, really, really challenging. And, uh, eventually it's, you know, it was done. And does that help us grow into a really serious, let's say a hardware manufacturer? But, uh, the, the beginnings were tough, yes, for sure. Well, Origin was a pretty ambitious product to start with, because it was a very comprehensive, um, modular synthesizer, um, not a simple instrument at all. Yes, absolutely. I mean, Origin was really ambitious. The, the idea was first to port our software onto hardware, but then we realized that, uh, just offering this software will not... Uh, be creative enough at that point, we started, we had to go beyond that. So we decided that Origin will be also a modular system allowing to, um, mix, uh, modules from the classic instruments of the past. So you could play, uh, a CS80 oscillator with a Minimoog filter, uh, add effects from another synth, et cetera. And offering that, uh, plus everything that we wanted to add, including sequencer and so on. Plus, the template, the existing, the original instruments like the Mini V or the Jupiter 8, etc., was really, really ambitious. So, we worked on, uh, with some hardware, TigerSharks, that gave us enough power to do that well, enough CPU to do that properly. Uh, but eventually, it was so ambitious that we could never entirely develop the entire, uh, concept. Still, Origin is a, I mean, still today it's in use and a lot of people are really loving their Origin. Uh, but this is a product we work really hard on. It's been a very expensive project and we never really hear again. That's one case where we never really made, made up for all this, uh, this investment. But again, that was still very good learning curve and it's still a very good product. It's, you know, we see sometimes pictures in studios, uh, um, all over the world and people who have it really love this sound. Uh, but it was a genuine attempt to bring this sort of Frankenstein solution, uh, to the, to the musicians. Origin was a purely digital product, but then in 2012 you launched the MiniBrute, which was an analog monosynth. That must have felt like quite a big risk for Arteria as a company to take. Yes, that's true. I mean, um, we, we were, because we were recreating those, uh, classic analog, uh, synthesizers. We were understanding a bit of that market and those products and, uh, we were also feeling there was an interest from a lot of people for the hardware solutions, um, beyond the radar. We felt there was a market for that. Um, and if you remember back then, only a few companies were still making and locking instruments. So, yes, uh, Dave Smith was back in the music. There were a couple of what they called boutique. uh, companies making products. Um, And we saw that if we were able to bring something that will be inexpensive enough, uh, singular enough as well. I mean, we had to bring, uh, differentiation, um, and not too intimidating. We could probably reach start to reach out to a larger number of people than, uh, than, uh, You will think so. Um, we, we, we started working on that and the project started a bit strangely because we had this very bright intern who arrived in the summer and we had this idea and we didn't really know what to give him. And his name is Daniel and he worked. He started working on that. I started making renderings and, uh, and we had a couple of guys in the company. We started working with him and after a couple of weeks realized that what he was doing was really great and we were all working with him on on the definition of what will become the mini Brute. So we had some some sort of, uh, strong decisions to make. For example, is it going to be 25 keys, 37 keys or 49, etc? And we decided I remember that day when we decided to go with. As a sort of square form factor, 25 keys only, just one oscillator, but very, very big and powerful and, and with access to pretty much everything so you could really mix the waveforms, not only select the waveform. So we decided to go with something quite simple and lean in a sense, but where we will really be strong with everything we will put in the, in the instrument. So just the Steiner Parker. Uh, filter, uh, which, uh, eventually brought this very unique sound to the MiniBrute. And, and, and this sort of radicality in our design choices, uh, worked really well. Yes, indeed. And the filter in particular is a very distinctive feature of the MiniBrute because many other instruments copy the classic Moog or sequential circuits. But you went for the Steiner Parker circuit, which hadn't been used for a long time. What do you feel is special and distinctive about that filter? Well, it's, uh, yes, some people think and see that the MiniBrute is, uh, is very aggressive, but I don't think it is. It's, uh, it's, um... The way you use the filter, it's, it's quite versatile and it's, uh, um, you know, the, the creamy letter filter is, is, is different from the Steiner that can be a bit more, uh, edgy in a sense, a bit more radical, but if you learn how to use it, because there's also something we, we brought this sort of feedback loop, uh, uh, feedback into, uh, the sound chain that we call the brute factor, um, and that's, Added to the, to the, um, to the standard Parker can create very amazing effects on sounds. It just goes for, uh, some sort of, um, I would say mastering of the beast in a sense. So you have to be careful on the way you use it. Uh, but yes, the standard Parker of character was, was very important oscillator, the way it's been, it's been done. And we've re, we've reused it afterward on pretty much everything we've done. Uh, since then, so the MiniBrute 2, um, for sure, but also, uh, the MatrixBrute and now the PolyBrute. And when you mix then the Steiner Parker with the ladder filter, you see, you hear the differences. And, uh, when you really have the two working together, you can really create, uh, amazing things. So, yes, we thought we will be a bit more radical, a bit more edgy with the, the Steiner Parker. But we felt also that the industry needed, uh, something different than another. Uh, letter filter recreation, uh, inspired by, uh, MOOC music. The MiniBrute and the MicroBrute were quite small and affordable instruments, but then you built on those to make the MatrixBrute and now the PolyBrute, which is an amazing instrument. Is that a move that was, um, driven by your users, or is that coming from your own personal sort of desire to have these instruments available? No, I think it's a mix, but it's, I think in this case, it's more, uh, so I think feelings that we wanted to do, uh, something a bit more ambitious first time with the metrics brute. Um, and then with the polybrute, for sure, users have asked for an analog polyphonic, uh, synthesizer. So we, we have, uh, listened and, uh, and we're following their, their request. But this is something of interest to us. So the Moog Modular, uh, sorry, not the Moog Modular, the, the MatrixBrute, the, the idea was to, uh, to, to see, um, if we could create a sort of modular with presets. Um, and it was, uh, I don't remember when we started working on that exactly, but modular instruments were growing as a trend and, um, we were still very much in love with the modular, um, and we were wondering, is there a way you could, uh, have the best of those two worlds in the sense have preset and the same time have the pleasure of patching, uh, really having your, your chords and so on. Um, and we could not find something working really. Okay. But this is when we, we add the idea of the matrix, uh, and the way, uh, it's done really, we feel allows to have really a lot of the benefits of, of really preset for sure, and, and the modular aspects. So you can very quickly create your patch in a, in a sort of physical, um, Let's say, uh, sensitive way as well with this, this, this matrix and that came really from this idea and everything derivated from there. I mean, we could use the matrix we realized for other things like a sequencer, uh, of course, for recalling presets and not only for setting modulations and, um, that, that was an important moment for us, uh, because we felt we loved also the matrix 12, which is such an amazing. Uh, sincizer, but, um, the user interface, uh, we felt could be in some cases, um, uh, a, a bit hard to, to first understand, but also to use on the, um, uh, on a daily basis. So we, we, we were really happy with the ergonomics of the, of the metrics, uh, in the metrics brute, and we reused that in the, in the poly brute as you saw. Wow, well I think you've succeeded in creating something truly desirable in those instruments, and I'm sure there's not a synth fan in the world who wouldn't want to get their hands on a MatrixBrute or a PolyBrute or even both. Um, but another direction that Arteria has moved into in the last few years is computer audio interfaces with your AudioFuse range. That's quite a competitive market and there's a lot of established names out there making very good products already. Has it been a challenge to break into that market? Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know if we've really done it yet, but we are, we're working on it. We are trying to make really the best products we can. Um, why did we, we make that move? Um, there are, again, it's a combination of different things. We were looking at the history of synthesizers and we saw those, uh. Trans back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, where people really were found of analog synths and then digital synthesizers came out and then suddenly the synths market went down, people were moving on to guitars, and that was a time also where a lot of company disappeared, so that's when, you know, Moog Music the first time was sold, but then some way faded away, and then Dave Smith Instrumental Sequential, sorry, back then in the In the 80s or 90s, I don't remember exactly. So a lot of companies, um, that were doing synthesizers, uh, had trouble. And, um, looking at this history, um, we were feeling that we had to be careful. Um, and that, you know, musical trends and things can change. So we had to also see if we could be on other segments of the market. So this is when... We looked at what we could be doing and audio interfaces were of some interest to us because we always felt they were an important part of the experience we are bringing with our products. We have software that needs to be carried out in terms of audio onto speakers or mixing tables. We had hardware that had to be recorded on the computer. So this piece in the center was, um, was very important and, uh, and, uh, we felt we some way belonged there as well. Uh, and last, we also had an opportunity from, uh, another, um, from another company, uh, which is, uh, which was very, uh, close to us, which is called Digigram. And we started working on the first product, AudioFuse, along Digigram to make sure, um, we could bring, um, something unique to the market. So, again, this is a case where, when we saw the intro, the opportunity, we were really thrilled. We, we thought, you know, we can do something different. And, uh, instead of really being a bit more wise, maybe, we said, let's do it. Let's, let's see what we can make that will some, some way, and it's maybe a bit daring to say. Uh, but change this, uh, this approach to, to, to audio interfaces. What could we make so people consider their audio interfaces as instruments in a sense, um, and are more empowered by the audio interfaces and not, uh, feeling slowed down by, you know, going through a menu, dialing with just one, uh, wheel, uh, onto certain things, going back, et cetera. So we really wanted to, to challenge the study school on this. Um, and we made AudioFuse, and then AudioFuse, um, Studio, and then, uh, AudioFuse 8 Pre, and we are going to keep on working on that. We are very happy with the feedback we have from, uh, from users, uh, and we, we're going to keep, uh, going in that direction. Wonderful. So 20 years on, Arteria are now a major company in the music technology world with a very broad product range from tiny little controller keyboards and iOS synths all the way up to the magnificent PolyBrute. Is there a common Arteria DNA that runs through all of these products? I mean, what do you think makes Arteria products distinctive and stand out? Yes, I think there is. I mean, we, we, we see, um, again, musician in the center. In a sense, we see really first this physical relation to the instruments. Um, I mentioned that recently, but I was a violin player and, uh, in the company, we feel this gesture, um, uh, touching the knobs, turning knobs, uh, really, uh, using instrument as instruments, not a systems where you will again, um, Um, have drop down menus and, and, and spend times on settings, et cetera. But have this more physical relationship, uh, with some sort of, uh, sense sensitivity. I don't remember the exact word, but where it will be based on sensation. So if you look at PolyBrute, it's, it's showing that quite well with the, uh, ribbon controller, with the more fade, the roughness beyond your finger, the way you can turn knobs, the screens are small with our products because we don't want people to focus on the screens, uh, so much, but really have the same approach. You will have with a more traditional acoustic instruments or the approach you add with, uh, with a mini move or, um, you know, early or, uh, offend the road, et cetera. So again, there is something, uh, very much and fuzzing the emphasize on the body experience, uh, is, uh, is, I think, core to what we're doing. And that's the same thing with our audio interfaces as well. You have a lot of control to do not be stopping your creative flow. Uh, you find that also in our key step line, for example. Uh, where you don't find a lot of screens, but you find everything you need to quickly do, uh, what you want. Um, another aspect is in the integration between software and hardware, because as you said, this is our history, we came from the software world, we're doing hardware as well. So we think we can offer a combination of the two that is, uh, uh, fulfilling and that's, uh, empowering and taking, um, you know, music creation a bit further. So this is something you find and you'll find, uh, even more, uh, with our future products. Um, and I think there is also a relation to time because we started by recreating classic instruments. There is this sort of, uh, respect and attention to the legacy and from there build something new. So not be, uh, sort of, uh, constrained by the historical parting. So when we do, for example, a software recreation. We are true to the original, but we don't want to force uses that will not be relevant today. So there is this sort of balance between, again, tradition, history, and, uh, and innovation, uh, that we try to, to, to make the best. And looking to the future, finally. What do you think musicians want from Arturia in the years to come? That's a good question. I think we should still work on making sure our products sound really good and work well, are easy enough to use. So when you come back from work, if you are not a professional musician, you may want still to open your computer or turn on your hardware synths. Um, I think integrations between all of them will be more important. So when you have one, you can do more with the other ones and you feel that, uh, and that's a word everybody uses. And I've been using in this, in, in pretty much all industries now, but creating this sort of ecosystem in a sense between products and open also to other products. So we're, we've been always keen on making sure products were compatible with other products in the industry. Uh, so we are NKS compatible, for example. Uh, and we're trying really to make sure our controllers work well with all, uh, those, uh, digital audio workstations. So, again, making sure work products work well together, integration, taking the best of software and hardware, making sure in all situations you can be really working the way you want. Should you have hardware, you may have it. Should you be in the situation where you want to work on your computer without any sort of hardware controllers, anything you can, et cetera. So this versatility will be. very much core to what we're doing. And we see, you know, new options for, uh, really outreaching to a new generation of musicians who are wishing to learn and can work with us on, uh, on that. And do you think new technologies like MPE and MIDI 2. 0 will come to be more important? Yes, I think they will. I mean, we've, uh, always been careful because throughout time we saw many. Uh, I don't remember all of them, but what was it different technologies came out. So we were always a bit careful, but we're going to support MP more, uh, MIDI 2. 0 year. We'll, you know, looking at it and we'll for sure support, um, uh, as much as we can. Um, we think that, yes, the link between controls and, uh, and generation of sound is very important. You can find a lot of options for controls now. And, uh, you can do so much and even I think we could do more, but you can do a lot in terms of sound generation and this link between the two remains one of the key questions. How can you really, uh, do what you want? And, uh, and, uh, yes, MP for sure. Maybe 2. 0 will help. We can invent also new ways of, uh, of, uh, of interior of this to making this interaction, uh, efficient. Well, it sounds as though that question, how can we, how can you do what you want is, is at the heart of Arteria's thinking on almost every product that you make. Yeah, we, yes, we're trying really to put ourselves in the shoes of the users. Um, I'm myself also always looking at the, the beginners, the first time users. So I'm the one who was advocating this customer was new to this industry because this is what I was at first. I remember. Uh, looking at the back of, uh, some, um, boxes, uh, software boxes, uh, back in the late 90s and wondering what is all that and trying to understand. I remember even the day where, uh, I talked with Gilles, my partner, about synthesizers and I was really new to that and I was not getting what a synthesizer was. So I was asking, uh, what does that mean? Is this synthesis like you will... summarize a sort of longer documents or you will make something shorter out of differences. A synthesis is a, is a sort of sum up of different things. And, and Jill told me, no, no, this is more synthesis as you will find in the pharmaceutical industry. This is like synthesizing a molecule or something like that. Out of nothing you will create a sound. In this case out of maybe, uh, uh, uh, voltage or, or, uh, electric signals. So I remember those days where it was really hard. And I'm always feeling that even for advanced users... The, the goal will be to, to offer instruments that are as simple to understand as a piano and as expressive as a piano. And that's one where you feel it's just infinite to, to play and, and, and enjoy and, and, and, and, and transmit what you want to express. And at the same time, you won't spend hours on, on any manual, whatever. So if we could do that, that will be great, even if, of course, it's a challenge. Well, I think we'll all say amen to that. And I'm sure everyone who's listening to this podcast will join me in wishing Arteria a very, very happy 20th birthday. And here's to the next 20 years. Frederic, thank you so much for your time today. It's been wonderful to talk and have a great week and talk to you soon. Absolutely. Thank you very much, Sam. Thank you to all of your readers and users. We'll do our best to keep up. Bye bye. Merci. Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all the other episodes. Oh, and just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound. com forward slash podcasts website page, where you can explore what's playing on our other channels.