Alan Moulder - Mixer/Producer and Engineer

Kevin Paul Welcome to the Sound On Sound People and Music Industry Podcast Channel with me Kevin Paul. This month we have another legacy episode with award winning engineer, producer and mixer Alan Mulder. Alan has recently picked up the prestigious Music Producers Guild Icon of the Year award, and I thought it appropriate to share again his episode when he sat down with me in 2019. Hello Alan, great to be here. Thanks for being on Mixbus. First question, what went wrong with your career? Alan Moulder I've been very lucky, um, I started at a time when Alternative music wasn't really something everybody wanted to do. It was actually something people tended to avoid, or it was kind of known more as indie rock then. And I started in 84, and people in those days were kind of into being Trevor Horn and making those great big, slick productions, which, you know, I like, and everyone wanted to show off being an engineer their prowess. And nobody really wanted to do the indie records cos they generally didn't sound very good. So I kind of liked that music, and I got into it through, I knew Alan Magee, who owned Creation Records, Alan Magee and Dick Green. I went to school with Dick Green, in Lincolnshire, weirdly enough, and so we knew each other before they had Creation Records, so when they formed Creation Records, and I was a Trident, I was kind of a, a trained engineer, which generally the indie bands couldn't afford. They, they went to smaller studios. So, I got to work with some creation bands, and there was no real competition. You know, nobody really wanted to do that stuff, and I loved it. So I started, it was me and Flood, basically. We both, we were the two who liked that kind of weirdo music, as they called it. And, uh, so we got a, we got a flying start. Then Nirvana came along, and suddenly alternative rock and indie rock, you know, suddenly people were selling records. And then all the big engineers wanted to do those records, but Flood and I got the track history from the Valentines and the Mary Chain, and with Flood, the mute bands that he did. So, we had a good head start. So, I think That worked out well for it. Is that where you started? At Trident? I started at Trident, yeah. And, and what was that like? It was four of the most exciting years of my life. I didn't sleep. Yeah, still, still. I didn't sleep. I didn't make any money. I was poverty stricken, but I mean, the people that were there at the time, there's Flood was the, the main guy. He was the head engineer. There was, we had Spike Stent. We had Chenzo Townsend. Steve Osborne, Paul Corkett. I'm sure I've missed some people out, but It was a pretty good roster of people and we're all great friends. Yeah. Everyone was still in competition with everyone, but it was not a backbiting competition. It was very supportive. Sure. It was tough, but it was really good fun. I learned so much. Yeah. I'd finally found the job that I wanted to do. I started late. I didn't start until I was 24. Suddenly I found this thing that I fell in love with and just devoted all my life to. Did you have any idea that you wanted to be in the studio or how did you get to that Trident place at 24? I'd been in local bands in Boston, Lincolnshire where I'm from. And, uh, you know, you always dream of making it in a band. Yeah. And it's not going to happen there. But, you know, certainly in those days it wasn't going to happen. And then I went into a studio. And saw that to do a demo and just thought, I like this, you know, this is, this is great. And then, uh, I just kind of realized, I was working for the Ministry of Agriculture at the time, and I kind of realized, you know, what am I doing, you know, this is, this is great. I liked the job, but, you know, I didn't want to do it for the rest of my life. And I thought, well, just take a risk and just Those days you just got a job in a studio. There weren't all the schools. It was only the Tom Meister course. And I didn't do A level music or Math, so I wasn't going to do that. That's the one at Surrey University. Surrey University, yeah. That was the, still going. Yes. Still good, but it was more for BBC type people then. Okay. So you just got a job in studios as an assistant in those days, or a T boy as it was. You used to be the runner, as they're now, but you used to call them T boys. And I managed to get a job and that was it. I just, I thought this is heaven. First day in the studio, Monday, I think it was Monday the 2nd of December. I turned up at 9 o'clock and left 9 o'clock the next morning. Wow, that's a great start. It was, that was back to the fight. But it was brilliant, you know. So you worked at Trident for four years. Yeah. And obviously you, you managed to stay the distance as it were. Yeah. What happened then? Did you just go freelance? Did you move to another studio? Well, they sold, Trident got sold. They sold it to another company, Audio One, I think. Yeah. And they, they kept one of the buildings, but basically it sold. So I was lucky enough that I'd got enough clients that I could keep going. I got managed by David Stewart from the Eurythmics. He set up a management company because he got so much work that he couldn't do. He wanted a management company of people that he could give work to. My now wife, then girlfriend was in, was signed to his label. So he knew me from working on her albums, Tony Halliday. And, uh, So he took me on, and so I got to work with Eurythmics and some of his bands that were on Anxious Label and his then wife at the time, Siobhan Fahey, so I did Shakespeare's Sister. So I worked on her albums too. And the record industry then was a very different thing, wasn't it? It was, yeah. People couldn't spend their money on video games and streaming and stuff. No, that's it. was the primary kind of form of entertainment. It was, yeah, it was things that people turned to. Yeah. The industry. Had huge budgets to make really great records. Yeah Obviously, we're still making great records. We just don't have that budget anymore now all time all time. Yes, indeed How do you manage to still produce the same quality of work without that budget? You must have had to change maybe your style or workflow or what would have happened. Yeah, you have to adapt You definitely have to adapt we're lucky enough to to have this studio. Yeah. So, I've got a great room, which has got a great mixing desk, and we've stuck to the old big desk. I mean, I still, I work in the box, but I've got the desk, I've got lots of outboard gear, I've been lucky enough to accumulate, so I have a room that enables me to have a quality. Is it fair to say that you mainly do a lot of mixing now? I do do more mixing, yeah, than production. Is that something you sought to do, or you just sort of fell into? Or, and, you know, is, is that where you're most happiest in the studio? It is where I'm most happiest. I think it's come from my time at Trident. I got, when I joined, they'd just taken on the second studio, which was in Victoria, and it had an SSL. It was the first SSL Trident had. And I got, Sent over there at the beginning and I learned the desk really quick. I'd go worked out. Nobody really knows how to use this So I learned it really quick. So I ended up if there was a session in there I got put on it because I knew the studio Okay and those days people would come in to try they're Coming for a day to try the studio out and they'd probably some people coming in to try the s to try SSL's out So I managed to get a good grasp on that room Yeah, sure Took the initiative. I took, yeah. Yeah. I learned it and it worked out great because I got all the sessions in there. Right. And they were the best paying sessions, they had the best clients, but the downside was people would come in for a day and that would mean they'd work 24 hours. And then I'd have to work the next day, so. So you didn't get much sleep, but it enabled me to learn that console really well. And so I end up spending a lot of my time mixing as a mixing assistant rather than a tracking assistant. Okay. So I think that's probably where it came from in the first place. Yeah. And now I kind of, I kind of like it. I think, I think it's what I'm best at. I like producing. Yeah. But, I know the bands that I think I'll be good for a producer to produce and I know the ones that I don't think I'll be able to provide what they need or want. I prefer mixing, it's just, for me, it's somewhere where I can, I feel I can add the most value. I like the challenge that, you know, It's down to you. Yeah. You, if you've gotta get the thing past the poster every day, you've gotta hit the ball out the park. Yeah. You've gotta get a tick. Sure. So it's a challenge. It's, you know, and I, I like that you get addicted to that kind of Yeah, yeah, for sure. Challenge. You definitely get addicted to that kind of expectation and Yeah. Desire. We spoke a little bit about the studio here. Yeah. How long have you and Flood been in charge of this place? We started off taking on my mixed room downstairs. That's the first room we took on. I think that was about 15 years ago, I think. And that was the only room we had here. And slowly, we've taken over most of the rooms in the building. We've, after that, we took over this room, A, uh, A and B2, the, the tracking room, which was run by Barney, who's the tech staff. And, uh, we put a Neve console in and we got our tracking room, which had, the idea was downstairs would be my room, the upstairs would be Flood's room. Okay. You have. A very good program of bringing people through. Um, we spoke about Catherine. You got Caesar, who you said. Cecil Bartlett. Cecil Adam Bartlett. He's, well he's doing very well. He's been working with a lot of people. If I'm looking to get a job in the studio, and somehow I wind up at the door of Bathory, what are you looking for from me? What makes you decide to hire Tom as opposed to hire somebody else? What, what, what is it that you're looking for in a, in a, an assistant to come into the studio? Is it education from college? Is it something else? What are you looking for? It's their personality. It's funny, cause all the, we got a lot of people there, and they're all completely different. Completely different people and personalities, but there's all, there's a, there's a common thread of their passion for what they do, that they, they all have, everyone's, they all have. got that same ambition and passion. So, I'm looking for some, we look for, uh, some of them have been to school, some of them haven't been to school. It makes no difference to us, because, really, they learn technique from school, and they learn, you know, technical stuff, which is great. Yeah. But they don't learn how to be in a session, and they don't learn a lot of the other stuff that, you know. We take for granted. So, you kind of start in from the ground up, all right. Okay, so you sort of strip them all back down and say, okay, well, Mark what you've learned. They generally come on work experience. Okay. That's how we generally find them, on work experience. So, I know people say about the work experience thing being a bad thing. Yeah. Not for the people who've come here. Yeah, sure. We've got them all from work experience. Yeah. Uh, Catherine came over from Australia just to work with Flood. Then she ended up with me. Okay. And. Then Caesar came from work experience from Lippa and he knew so much about computers I thought we need a guy to run our rigs. Okay, I think flood took on Cecil and I took on Caesar. Yeah, and They come in for the we just see something in the people and Tom Same thing, he comes in, his knowledge of music is amazing, his depth of knowledge of music. You think, OK, well that guy has got an ear. He understands it. Yeah, he understands it. And it's just, you just get a feeling from them. Sure. What ends up is they, they end up not going home, or they, they, they turn up and they won't go. So you end up having to employ them, kind of. I guess it's that doggedness, though, that actually shows, shows their desire. That's it, the guns need to come and work, experience it, leave. On the dot of five, you're not going to warm to them as much as the one who's there to, I mean, some of them have to get leave at five because they got to get home or whatever, but as a generalization, you spot the ones that are really in it for the right reasons. And sometimes with work experience, you get people come in and, At the end of it they go, I've realised this job isn't for me. Because, as you know, it's, it's not for everyone this. If you don't absolutely love it, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna kill you. Well, it's a lifestyle, isn't it? It is, yeah. It's, it's not, it's a vocation. Yeah. That's what I see, I see anyway. And between Flood and I, if they, we always try and make sure that they work for both of us. Okay. Because we are very, very different how we work. And it teaches them completely different things. Which I think is a very, gives them a much rounder education. How do you work? I'm very methodical. Okay. Can you like a classic mixed engineer? Very. Can you maybe describe that a a little bit deeper? Like, so you are, you are mixing a band for instance. Do you have a, a set way of working in terms of approaching a song or it's just how it's set up? I don't want it set up a certain way, just from the start, but when I actually approach it to mix it, no, it's not really the same. Not really the same. I try, and if I do an album, to give each album a different kind of, OK, I'm going to use more different stuff on this or something, just to keep me interested, really, as much as anything. Yeah, so it's not, it's not mixing by numbers. No. I've tried that, I can't do it. Doesn't work. So I'm very organised and very structured. You, you mean with your protools or your desk? Everything kind of is tidy and kind of We have a system. Okay. And, uh, that's the kind of thing. Flood is chaos. And his genius comes from managing to work in this chaos where everyone thinks, what is happening? And, uh, suddenly something great appears. So they learn both sides and the value of both sides. Sure. How do you encourage those people that work with you to Venture out. They're almost like like your children in some way. Yeah. Yeah, you know and and you you've you've spent a lot of time Nurturing them and showing them the studio How do you sort of encourage them to go out into the world? What's what's there? Well, I know you're not necessarily responsible for that for them building their careers But you you obviously have an influence to them. We introduce them to clients And so they get to meet people and we actively promote them when we are. Okay Have the record companies or bands and so they'll probably end up they'll start off that maybe doing b sides for them or live mixes They could start to get our client base which feed them in which you feed them in so then they start then the record company Will be aware of them and so they'll think okay. Well, let's give them, you know, we've only got this amount of money Let's try these people. So We kind of pass on our clients to them, and then it gets to a point where they get taken out of the studio. They want to take them on to do a project somewhere else. And so they get their own clients, and they, and then it kind of goes off. What I do love about this place is they come back to work in the rooms, and they, they, they, they We try and provide this as a home or a base for them to come back to, because what's great is, you're in a room, there's people around all the time. This place isn't, as you can see, we don't spend money on the decor. The dog house, which Flood, which is an old tape store, which we've converted into a room, because Flood was ending up, Running out of time on the album, or budget on albums. So we managed to create a room for him where he could finish them off. The kind of, when the budget had gone. And so we got these little rooms that people go in and just make music. And it's great. I mean, yeah. People who come here either get it or they don't. They either don't like Wilsdon, and it's not plush enough for them. Or they just get a sense of the building and the creativity. We had Duran Duran here at this. This year a lot. Oh, what was that like? Well, I thought they were going to hate it. You know, this ain't Rio. You know, you just think of their videos. Yeah. They loved it. And they keep, they come back. Because they get the place. Which was a joy to us. That's the highest compliment, isn't it? It come back. Yeah. When you start a mix, what's your first thoughts? The first thing I do is I listen to the reference mix. Yeah. From top to bottom. Okay. And then, uh, I will decide whether I'm going to mix it on the board or in the box. Sometimes I'll break it out at the desk. I'll put print in the box, a mix in the box, then I'll break it out on the desk and just run it through the desk. And listen to the tune, decide which suits it better. Sometimes budget will dictate whether I just go straight in the box because it takes longer at the desk. If I'm using the desk, I'll get it to a point Then it'll be stemmed extensively, and I'll go back in the box. So it always ends up back in the box, because you do so many tweaks these days, you have no choice, really. Once I've decided which I'm going with, old school, I start with the drums and bass, and I will start from where that person is, what they've given me, and Shape within that. Yeah, because those reference mixes, or rough mixes, is what we're called, they're not necessarily rough or reference mixes anymore. A lot of the sounds and stuff that are their plugins are the production. Sometimes people, because of budgets, they have to Record very quickly. It's changed. It used to be you'd spend a long time recording And then mix it in a day. Yeah now sometimes I think we spend longer mixing it than they've spent recording it because That's the way it is. So A lot of the effects that are in the box are part of the production. So you can't really Sweep the board and start again. I, I, I, I find yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it? Because they're almost partly mixing. I think from the first that's it from the beginning. Yeah. And I find that what I tend to do is there'll be a lot of stuff across the mix bus these days. That's okay. That, that comes in. So I take that off. And I try and get it. My first thing would be trying to get it sound like the ref mix without the stuff on the mix bus. Okay. As you know, the mix bus makes it sound exciting, all the, the processing, but. When it gets loud distortion, whatever distorts you, the dynamics are gone. You're losing all the transient. So I try and get it to feel like that. If you, if you can get it to feel like that without the stuff on the mix bus, you're in a, you're in a great shape because you're getting all the, the air and the depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that what the, the ref mix is generally nail is. The excitement and the, well the, what the producer wants to hear. The intention. Yeah, the intention. So you're working on your drums. Do you, um, do you use any form of replacement or a sample? I enhance, I don't, I don't replace. The first job an assistant gets when they come to me is MIDI mapping. Right. So, I don't use the quick replacements, I get them to MIDI map it. Okay, and that's using contacts or something like that? I use battery. Battery, okay. Battery and, uh Appropriately. Yes, exactly. So they do the MIDI mapping, which is a skill in its own. Sure. Making sure that you don't miss the ones. Sometimes, also sometimes when people have edited drums in a hurry. There'll be what I call a false transient at the beginning, and when you do the, the um, tab to transient, it'll go on the wrong one. So the samples will be slightly off. So then you actually have to go and see, you'll see where the, the real transient is when you zoom in, and then you have to move them all. So it take, takes a while. Yeah. But then once you got them, It's all, you know, you can change samples, add samples, everything's very coherent. So that's quite meticulous, that's obviously very important, isn't it? Yep. Getting that right. Yep. Yeah. Um, and then, I've listened to a lot of your work over the years. Right. Um, and your mixes always just have this incredible intensity to them. That, you know, For the love of God, I cannot get anywhere near. How are you managing to get that intensity? Because, are you using saturation? Are you driving the mix bus? Are you doing both? Are you using distortion somewhere? I really don't know. I generally don't like the way things sound. So I keep struggling to try and get it to work. To a point where I don't hate it, the way it sounds, and I kind of, I don't settle very easily on something, so I keep pushing myself to try and get it how I find it, how I want to hear it. Okay. Which, sometimes I don't know, I just keep trying stuff. A lot of stuff doesn't work, so I just keep trying stuff until something happens, and sometimes you'll just be exasperated and try a piece of gear that you think you hate. Yeah. And then that. Piece of gear just saves you bacon, right? I do like stuff to be quite intense I think it's from yeah, I think you're shaped by the music you go Yeah, I mean you did a load of the the nine inch now stuff, which was probably as intense as it could ever be Yeah, that's that's yeah one of my favorites. I don't you know, so I mean, I'm sure there was an education a learning curve Yeah from from Trent And from the Mary Chain. Right, okay. So that was pretty good. Have you carried that with you? Some good violence in there. Have you carried that with you? Some good violence. Good musical violence, yeah. Have you carried that with you? Yeah, I, those are the bands I love. I mean, I, I, I love that intense. I mean, but it's not to suggest that you only work with that band, because you do, Nice, pleasant indie music. Yeah. Um, as well, it's, it's not everything you do, it's kind of like It's true. No, it's true. But a lot of it No, a a lot of it is. Yeah. And for good measure. Yeah. For good reason. And I, I, I guess it's 'cause I do get a lot of stuff that's quite dense. Right. That's why people probably think, oh this has got a hell of a lot of stuff on it. I'd probably be able to doing, get on the back phone. Yeah. . So, I dunno, I don't know. There's no. There's no real plan behind it all. You're just trying stuff, and then when you feel the magic Yeah, when in fact Okay, that's not working, let's try this. Okay, that's not working, let's try this. Okay, that I really wish it was I know what to do with this one. Because I'd I'd be a lot quicker. I'm not very quick. How long does it take you to do a mix? It varies. It's generally more than a day. More than a day, okay. Generally a day to do battle with sounds. Right. And then the next day, it's a, I come in and it's a song again. I hear it as a song and I start to work on making it better as a song. Yeah. Rather than pulling my hair out about drums, which Right. Which, which Which is what we all do. Which we all do, yeah. Drums and bass, right? Drums and bass. Exactly. How do we get that bass to sound good? Yeah. How do we get everything to sound clear, yeah. Is there a piece of equipment that you use all the time? Or is there a favourite process that you're always using in the studio when it comes to your mixes? What, what, is there something that you've, that you carry with you? Kind of from track to track, album to album, session to session? Or has that changed? There's a, there's, they kind of change around. I've got an Alicia compressor that I really love, that I use on drums. In what, in what way do you use it on the drums? Um, As a, um, parallel, I love it. 'cause you can, there's a knee key filter on it, so you can send the kit to it and roll the top off so you don't get just the symbols to it. Okay. Yeah. I've got a new, newer one. I've got a overstay stereo compressor, which I love has got the filters on that overstayers are kind of synth based rather than EQ based, so they have a different tone and the compression on it. it's really, really good. And it's got a mix knob on it. Okay. So, that's Which is always helpful. Those two things I'm using a lot. Uh, I've got an EMI, or Chandler EMI 2G1 compressor, which I love on vocals on Limiter. It makes life hard for you because it brings out all the pops and the S's and the T's and all the dirt in between. That singers seem to like. It gives it like a little bit of drive, and it just sits it. Yeah. Do you use a lot of limiting in the mix? I use a bit. I use I don't use, um, limiting much apart from, I guess I do really, I mean everyone does these days. I use, uh, the TG 1 hardware, but I use some of the software ones. I use the, uh, Renaissance Axe a lot on the, on basses. The R Bass, very simple, the kind of limiters. Is there a consistent mix bus that you use? Not really. On the desk, when I'm on the desk, I have a Obsidian compressor, which is like the SSL one, very like the SSL one, but it's got a high pass filter in it. Okay. And I think the SSL one sounds great for drums, this one sounds better for guitars. When you stem off your work, Mm hmm. You said that you do some intricate stems. How, how detailed are we talking about here? Are we talking about literally individual, every single track? And what about reverbs? Well, we will The drums now will be stemmed individually. We worked out a system where I can stem the kick snare separately. And then what will happen is What's across the drum bus will go back on. We'll stem them with that off. Okay, right. But it'll go through, sometimes I run it through to generate some helios for the line amps rather than the SSL. Okay. And, uh, it just makes it a bit more open. And through, sometimes I've got, uh, an inward connection EQ that will sometimes do the bottom and top. So they'll be printed through those. Yeah. And then they go back in. So the drums will be, uh, I mean, if there's a top and bottom mic, that'll be printed as one. Yeah, sure. So it's not all Sure, yeah. It's just the core, like the kick, the snare, the toms, the overheads, the rooms, they'll all be printed separately. Then the guitars, obviously, if there's separate mics, they'll be bounced to a stereo rather than Okay. all the separate mics. Okay. And the bass will be one, so And what about your reverbs? So you printing Guitars with effects or are you separating your effects out even with your sta No. Uh, on the vocals they'll be separated out. I've got a, I've got an EMT plate that we'll use, and that will be, that will be standed separately. And the, I've got an a MS, uh, TMX. Okay. 15, which I love. I that would be recorded. It's all the effects will be recorded. It's literally the mix in the box. Somebody stays up. All night doing it. Tom, now. It was Susan. Now Tom I'll track it at a time. Four minutes. We call it STEM party for one. So You've got the glitter ball, you can put that on, you can have a whole party. I leave about nine or ten o'clock and see you tomorrow, Tom. And he's still here at nine or ten o'clock. Yeah, he's here pretty late, yeah. Have you got any sort of suggestions for things to try to avoid, rather than things to try to do? Well, we've touched on it with limiting. You get reference mixes that are so loud now. Yeah. And I understand why, we all understand why, but it starts, then what happens is you feel like you have to compete with it because can you trust the people to, when you're listening back, to not compare it on their laptop to their reference mix and be just impressed by the volume? So if you can calm that down. And sometimes limiting is used to make up for poor production. The excitement comes from limiting rather than performance or the sounds. Which again, I understand, we're all up against the time crunch. But The hard work you put in at the beginning makes everything else better and everything goes down the line feeling better that you, so I just say just try to avoid not crushing the life out of everything. I don't see how you have too many problems with the loudness of your records compared to others. Well you do. Yours are pretty loud. Well that's only, but that's only because How do you deal with that? Okay, so say, you know, your client comes in and has got a rough mix and it's, you know, seven decibels of, of gain on, on the limiter and it's just absolutely, you know, squared off completely. How do you deal with that in terms of not necessarily Your style of mixing, 'cause you're not gonna change what you do to, to compete with it. As you said you have, you have to compete with it. Do you ever have to end up having to say to the client, don't listen to the rough mix for volume? Because it's not gonna be that, I will say I couldn't get my mix as loud. Your mix is two DBS louder than mine. So if you're comparing it to that mix down two dbs. Okay. Yeah. And I'll explain why. I don't want to sound like somebody who's saying, Oh, modern, this is how modern life is. It's, this bottle's been there since the 60s. Yeah, sure. You know, people trying to, using limiting and trying to get things loud and there's always the, all the Americans get more bottom end on their tracks and they're louder in the 60s. It's, it's been going on forever. Okay. It's just a different, it's just different set of rules now. It's different. Set of toys. Are you referring to the ruffman? I refer I read a lot. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I read Reference mix a lot. That's interesting for people to sit there because I think You know when you're starting out mixing, you know, we all have that you you never sure if what you're doing is good When I started out I used to a be to CDs all the time Okay, I would I think when I went I went to the smashing pumpkins and I remember the first day You We were listening to stuff we'd done. And Butch Vig was playing some mixes he'd done, or he'd worked on. And they were listening to some of mine. And I thought, Hmm, I got a lot, I got some stuff to learn here. And so I started A, being constantly to records that I thought sounded amazing. It's a frustrating process of trying stuff out, fiddling, getting annoyed. And, uh, Try more stuff. Somehow getting there, getting to a point where you, you don't hate it or you, you, you're in the ballpark and that's, once you got to that point, it's like you can start to enjoy yourself a bit more. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's you versus the for you versus the track versus the track. Yeah. I think that's a great place to leave it, Alan. Thanks Kevin. It's absolutely pleasure. I think you're gonna share lots of stuff that people are really gonna enjoy. I hope so. Thank you very much pleasure Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information Along with web links and details of all our other episodes and just before you go Let me point you to the sound on sound forward slash podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels This has been a mixed bus production by me Kevin Paul for sound on sound