Time for another edition of Paths for the Past podcast Matt Smith alongside with Paul Perillo, and we were pleased to be joined by number fifty one on your scorecard, but number one in our hearts.
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me, Thanks for being here, Gerard really appreciate it.
You know.
We normally when there's an audience of Patriot fans and that's who's listening to this, and you get somebody like a Kevin Flock, people don't necessarily know what he's up to these days. I think most Patriot fans know what Garrod Mayo's up to these days. Do you like it?
Oh? I love it? I love it. You know.
I feel like my calling is just to develop people, and so whether we're talking about players, you know, to help them become someone that they never thought that could become, or an entrepreneur. I just like developing people. And that's I feel like I'm in my calling right now.
Did you know that you were going to get into that? You know, even as a player.
Man, let me say you, I always knew I wanted to be around the game to a certain extent. Uh, when I when I first retired coach actually asked me to ask me to coach, and I was like.
Nope, I remember that.
Yeah, I said, I need a break, and so that break was good and that's when I went and worked in business for a few years. I worked that Optum for three years, which is a great experience. I'm always looking for opportunities to be uncomfortable. Uh, you're never comfortable in this building. And so, uh, it kind of called
me back, and you know, Bill called me. He actually he actually convinced my wife first, uh, to get me back into coach, well, to get me into coaching initially, and then my wife and Bill kind of put the pressure on me.
Something about that position. The linebacker's matt right. You know, Mike Vrabel always talked about being a coach, wanting to be a coach. I know Teddy Bruski has talked about it. He's you know, uh, toys around a little bit with the high school level. What is it about the position? It's it's so you guys are smarter than everybody, you.
Know what I think.
So honestly, you know, obviously on the offensive side, you can say the quarterback or center, but you know, when you think about the linebacker position, you know, they have to tie everyone together, they have to tie the back end to the front end. And we've been fortunate enough, you know, around here in New England to have you know, great linebackers. You know before me you mentioned a few, you know, Teddy Brusky, Mike Vrabel. Those guys did a
great job passing the torch off to me. And I feel like I did a good job passing the torch off to a guy like Dante Hi Tower who you know, they've they've kept, you know, kept the tradition going.
So, you know, I think when we talked to a lot of people who played in your era, Gerrod and say, hey, I have any interest in being a coach and everything, Hell no, they can't tell me. You've got a young family. You're certainly was much younger when you started than it is now. It's a grind, man, that had to be part of you know, if you're not all in, how could you do this? That had to be at least a significant point of your decision making.
Absolutely, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't coach if I didn't feel like I had the support of my wife and kids. And so it is a grind and you know, and saying that though I would say my family they.
Enjoyed the process.
They enjoy you know, coming out to training camp, they enjoy going to the games, and they understand I'm doing it, you know, with a with a larger goal in mine.
You know.
With that being said, there's there's nothing else that really gets my blood pressure up then going out, you know, in a good way, is to go out in the field, you know, in the practice field and just getting guys better. So that's why I do it. My family supports me one hundred percent, and you know, I have a good time doing it.
And you talked about, you know, Bruce Ki and Rabel sort of laying the groundwork for you, And I'm just curious, you know, Matt and I were talking before we started just how quickly you became one of those guys like it. It didn't seem like there was any transition at all for a rookie. And you were kind of like, you know, girod Belichick right away, like how did that happen so fast?
I remember Brady said, you know, oh you mean Gerard Belichick, Like, oh you mean Belichick?
Kevin fuck Belichick.
That year, you know, honestly, it just comes down to I think Bill enjoys the company of people who enjoy football and not really what football.
Has to offer.
You know, obviously a lot of the players, they get paid a lot of money. You know, they can get in front of the you know, in front of the line at the clubs early. But if you love football, if you love just to study the game, whether it's offense, defense or special teams, then you have a good relationship with Bill and you know all of those guys. Honestly, when I came in, I just wanted to be a
sponge and learned as much as possible. The year prior they won every game but won the Super Bowl, And so I wasn't coming into an organization, even though it was a top ten pick, I wasn't coming into an organization where, you know, there is a whole overhaul of the team. We had a bunch of leaders on that team. You know, Rodney was on that team, Randy Malls, Tom Brady Vrabel, Vince Wilford, Tye warn although Richard Seymour. I mean,
that team was loaded. And so for me to come in it was more like, all right, let me just learn from everyone else and not say anything unless.
I have to.
But I I will say this, The reason I would say I gained the respect of the players is because I would go in there when Bill was on the computer and ask them, hey, man, the guys are tired. You know, we don't want to be in pads today. And you know, rookie in this year, no one really wanted to go in there, right because, I mean, Bill's a tough guy. And so for me, my mom, I was always raised you know, if the worst thing someone
could say to me is no, then go ask. And so I would go in there and I would say, you know, I always joked around. I was batting three hundred at the time. I'm bating, you know, two fifty four hundred at a time. Because I would go in there and sometimes, you know, the request would be granted, and then other times he'd be like, hey, get out of here.
But when I would go back in the locker room and tell guys, you know, we're not in pads today, it was like a celebration and like literally like picking me up on their shoulders. It's like this guy went into the fire, went to the dragons the dragons layer and asked for something and got it. And so That's how the nickname, you know, Derwi Belichick and all those things started to come up. But I think the guys really realized that I cared more about them than myself,
than my ego or anything like that. Like I didn't care about getting cussed out. Even to this day, you know, I get cussed out. It's like, all right, whatever.
Do you think that you gained a little respect maybe from Bill? Like who's this rookie that time asking me, you know, can we not practice in pads this afternoon? Like that's that's Rabel's job, that's bruised, this rookie's coming in and doing it. Did you gain a little respect?
I think so?
I think so, And I would say even now to this day, I feel like, you know, I tell Bill I still call him coach, but for the purposes of this, you know, I tell Bill what it is, like, this is what it is. I don't sit there and agree with everything he has to say. He doesn't agree with everything I have to say. There's a mutual respect there where,
you know, I see things a little bit different. And when we talk about diversity, not trying to segue or jump ahead, but when we talk about diversity, most of the time, people only talk about you know, black and white, or they talk about skin color, but there's also, you know, diversity of thought. There's also generational diversity, and I think those things oftentimes get missed when people really talk about diversity.
I think Bill's done a good job getting guys around him that can relate more to the players, because now, you know, he's not getting any younger, he's getting older. But at the same time, we're carrying the flag and carrying all the things that he's instilled in us as coaches and me as a player prior. But you know, we're trying to disseminate that message to the rest of the guys.
You know, you brought up you know, your draft and where as we're recording this, it's draft weekend. Just any thoughts or memories of what draft night was like for you?
Yeah, Draft night? Yeah, Draft night for me was it was great. You know, I didn't go to the draft. I wasn't even invited back then, they only invited like the top you know, three or four. I wouldn't have gone anyway. I'm more of a I want to be around my family with things like that, and so I was in Virginia with my mom and my grandparents, to my brothers, my uncle, you know, and we were out there.
I was raking leaves with my mom. I was raking leaves outside, and so my brothers, you know, when we get together, we rarely get together, but when we all get together, we like to have a drink or two. And so one of my brothers he was like, all right, we're gonna do a shot every pick that goes by that you're not picked.
And so I was.
Like, whoa, Yeah, I know if I would have went twentieth, I wouldn't be here today. And so and that's why I don't drink Patron to this day now, because we were drinking Patron and I was the tenth overall pick. So you do the math. You know, it's a good time.
Though it was a celebration. You know, there are a lot of tears because honestly, you know, these are things you think about when you're a five year you know, five six year old kid, Like, especially where I'm from, you know, you don't really see too many people just get out of there. And even though in Virginia we have a lot of professional athletes, but you know, per capita at the same time, you know, it's tough and like there's a lot of blood, sweat and tears go
into it, you know, to any dream. And then when you're finally able to realize that dream, it's it's a very special moment. The hard part after that is resetting it. Right, So now you get you know, you accomplish your goal. You accomplish your dream. Now you got to move the flags, dick, right, we got to move it again. Now what's the next dream? And so that's kind of how I think about it.
Did you have any inkling that the Patriots were interested in you?
I had a little inkling because so funny story, I wasn't even coming here on a thirty visit initially, and I was on my way to another team. I won't say the name of the team, but it's a huge rival. They wear green. But I was on the way. I was on the way with me and rhymes with Mets. I was on the way out there, and the Patriots called and said, hey, you know, can he swing through here before he you know, just real quick before he
goes to New York. And I ended up coming here spending a lot of time with Matt, Patricia and Dean P's at the time. And then I was gone and it was just that quick, you know, it was that quick. And I went to New York and the rest was history. That was the only thing, because when I went at the Combine, this was the weirdest, weirdest Combine interview for me that I had. I had a lot of them as well, coming out as an underclassman. But I went
in the room and you know, everyone's in there. Bill wasn't in there, I don't believe, but no one said anything. So I go in the room. You remember how you know the interview process works at the Combine.
Well, I've heard a little bit about it, Like you know, there's a bloat horn that coach off in the hallway to mad Dash with everybody that's going to everybody's room, right, And you get in there and there's a clock.
You're on the clock, the clock that's right. And so I go. I go into the Patriots. So you know, this is right before, this is right after the Giants just won the Super Bowl.
So I go.
I visit with the Giants. They're having a party because they knew they weren't supposed to win that game either, right, So like I go in their room and everyone's like dancing like a ha ha ha ha, a whole bunch of laughing and things like that. And then I go to the Patriots room and it's like stone cold, like silence.
For two minutes.
Now, if you ever, if you ever, just like set your clock to two minutes and don't say a word. It is a long time.
It's uncomfortable.
Or do a plank. Do a plank for two minutes. It is a very long time. Yeah, And no one, like you said, we're on the clock. So I'm sitting there like I just introduced myself and then no one asked me any questions, and so I'm like, all right, this is kind of weird. And then finally we got into football. But I didn't know if they were trying to figure out, like, you know, what I was thinking, or you know, see how I dealt with uncomfortable situations.
But that I mean, I really didn't have like, all right, the Patriots are really looking at me. I thought I was going to go to Denver Detroit, you know, teams like that.
So and they originally had the seventh pick. Yep, they traded down to ten. That's right, did that you know, sort of put them more on the radar for you or you still.
Really still still had still wasn't thinking Patriots. You know, it's crazy, you know they trade back and still have a top ten pick, but at the same time, still didn't really think about them. I thought I was gonna go at twelve to Denver, and then Detroit had fifteen, So okay, so we're gonna look at.
This now, Matt. So I had a twelve at Denver. The reason twelve Denver was twelve. Twelve for Denver was pretty good, Ryan Clay, he had a really good career.
But if you go up that list though, all right, let me let me do it, all right.
This is why I wanted to do this, because I wanted to see how in tune you were.
I was. I was.
I was pissed because I can say that. Of course, I was kind of pissed because Vernon Golston went at six to the gym.
Okay, before you continue, I'm going to have to make an admission. I was a big Vernon Goldston guy in that drafted man. Was I wrong? Well, not the first time, it won't be the last.
He absolutely looked the part.
As he was couldn't play.
He looked upon like they did everything they had, like Lawrence Taylor working with him at one points, like he went six, and then Keith Rivers went at nine nine. Yeah, and so like when those two guys went, I was just like, man, you know, no, no shot to those guys. I just at that time, I had a little bit of confidence in my game. And I love football. I love studying guys. And you know, is what it is. It all worked out.
Do you walk? Did you follow the mark at that time? Like yeah, and everything going, hey, yes, we're hearing, we think you're going in the top ten.
Yeah.
The funny thing is the only person to get it right was was Charlie Castley, Like the day before the draft, Bill's favorite Charlie Hey, he was the only one that got it right. Though Charlie Castlely got it right like me going to the Patriots.
He had it at seven. And ye.
This is it's a strange first round this two thousand and eight year, because I think there are a lot of good players like you and Matt. I mentioned Clady, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco. This this good Keith to leave is part of this first round. And then there's some real busts. It's like no in between, there's no like, oh, but he was okay.
Like both Goldstein because of the team.
Like Glenn Dorsey, Vernon Goldston, if you mentioned Keith Rivers, you know this Brandon Albert wasn't wasn't great.
It was okay.
For Shad Mendenhall Pittsburgh. There's a lot of like guys that these are first round picks, but you know there is some good talent here to Dwayne Brown.
Dwayne Right, Virginia Tech. And I would say there's a gold jacket in there though. And Matthew Slater, I'm putting it all.
Well, now we're going down to the fifth round. He did write that down. But another guy still playing, still going playing, And how long you've been to coach now.
Man, I'm going into my fourth year, so still going. And honestly, you know, I see Slaton there every single day. And like you talk about a guy who takes you know, takes care of his body, loves the game of football, loves actually loves special teams, not like these other guys who you know, they go on their visits and they're.
Like, oh, I love special teams.
Then you ask them like how many, I mean, how many snaps of special teams you have last year It's like, you know, coach didn't really want me on special teams.
But when you think about a.
Guy like Slater, a guy who who's really been the glue for a long time around here, like I feel like I was the bridge between like I only have one super Bowl. Like I'm not complaining I have won Super Bowl, but the bridge between that next generation. You know, I was the bridge between you know, myself and in high tower of that whole world when they won. Slate's been through through you know, through it since two thousand
and eight and he's still going. So when you really think about that, he's the glue and I was just the bridge to go over there. But you know, he's he's a Hall of Famer, in my opinion, a guy you know, he doesn't go out there and play, you know, thirty snaps a game, but at the same time he makes a huge impact on the game.
I would just want to follow up on that about Slater, and I think I think I've heard RKK at least talk a little bit about this. In an organization with so many great players like Teddy Bruski, really only he only played for the Patriots, but as Bill said when he retired, the perfect Patriot guys like Troy Brown, Hall of Famer's Richard Seymour, maybe the greatest ever play the game in Tom Brady. Is here a better representative of what the Patriots STANMD for than Matthew Slater?
I don't think so. I mean, I think that's a that's a great point. You know.
He he embodies everything you want, not only as a player on the field, but also off the field, giving back to the community, also really caring about the guys not as football players but as men and trying to mentor the next generation. And who knows when his last snap will be, you know, hopefully continues to play just like Tom is doing. But you talk about a guy who's just an all around great, you know, great man, man of God and just a guy that I have no problem following, it's Matt Slayter.
Does he make you and I don't mean necessarily you girodmeo, But does he make the coaching staff's job a little bit easier knowing that you can lean on, Hey Slate, get this guy straight? You know, Yeah, I don't have I don't have time to do it or however that goes. But you know you can rely on him to help keep that to make the messaging what it needs to be.
Absolutely and I would say, you know that that's also done by committee, right, And so you also have a Devin mccorty, you know, Devin McCarty of the world, who's also able to do those things and slate on the and then on the offensive side of the ball, you're gonna have some guys emerge here, right, some guys emerge. As far as you know, we don't usually talk a lot about leadership, but at the same time, you hope it happens organically and that guys will follow a particular individual.
Most of the time that happens to be, you know, a linebacker or a quarterback. At the same time, it doesn't have to be. And so you know, when I think about leadership, you know, sometimes people get slapped with the title of leader but really don't deserve it, or people don't want to follow him. And coaching as well, So you think about coaching, it's like, all right, if this guy's a coordinator, he's a good leader. That's not necessarily true. Or if this guy's a head coach is
a good leader. That's not necessarily true, and so like to go you know, to go into it with that assumption, I think is crazy. At the same time, having a guy like, you know, bringing this back full circle, having a guy like you know, Matt Slater and Devin mccordy and those leaders like that, I mean they're second to nine.
So when you think back to that rookie year, you head into O eight, you and Matthew and you know, but first drive of the season, ten minutes into the season, you know, Tom goes down. What would do you remember sort of what was going through your mind to like, this is supposed to be this is the guy that went to all these Super Bowls, you.
Know what, you know, personally speaking, you know, it hurt me a little bit and I was just like, oh no, you know, the season's over. But once again, that team was so strong that the guys were like, doesn't matter, next play and we ended up winning eleven games that year, you know, with Matt Castle at the helm. But we had a bunch of good players. And that's where I really learned that next man up mentality because people talk about next man up, but we kind of live it.
Here.
We live the whole, you know, whether it's a coach, whether it's a player, like next man up, be ready to go. And you know, I try to prepare the guys like that, Like it doesn't matter. I coach everyone. You know, I don't want to say I coach everyone the same. You know, I stole this quote, but I treat everyone fairly. I don't treat everyone the same, like I don't. I don't have to tell high Tower like yo.
Move over right here.
But there are some younger players who are like, hey, you got to move over and get into space.
But you earned that. You earn that. And uh.
But going back to that team, man, that team was loaded. You think about the guys who came off the bench on that team, you know, the Jarvis Greens of the world, even the Mic Wrights of the world, guys who had these these roles that they'll never you'll never hear about them as far as you know, the impact that they had on the game. But when you think about just this, think about the defensive defensive front. All right, Ty Warren never made a Pro Bowl, right, but unbelievable defensive end,
no question. Vince Wilford, young, Vince Wilford unbelievable talent always, you know, doubled on every single play, Richard Seymour at defensive end, the backers, myself and Bruski and then Vrabel and then Dallas Thomas like that that front alone. Then in the back end you had you know, Brandon Merriweather, Rodney Harrison and those guys. But that team, and that's only the defensive side of the ball, the offensive side
of the ball as well. It's just crazy, right, And so you know, I look back on that team and I'm just like wow. And then I look at the twenty nineteen defense, where we had a very good defense that year as well, And I always think about the differences between those two defenses, and even though they both were very good, they you know, did a lot of good things. In twenty nineteen, we had a very good defense. You know, the Boogeyman were going and you know, we
made a bunch of plays. But then I look at the front. You know, everyone's like, how were you Rookie of the Year in two thousand and eight? It had nothing to do with me. They had everything to do with No one knew who I was, right, They just knew I was a top ten pick and we have all these beasts around them, right, And so I was able to go out there and really just free flow.
You know what I remember about that twenty eighteen, and I'm sure you've heard it is Belchick's busting your balls and San Jose during warm ups and he's asking you why you have two trucks, right, right?
Yeah?
And Mass is sitting there going first round money, first round money, right, And I just remember going, wow, like, here's Bill busting your balls as a rookie and everything like that. That to me really sort of said, you know that you were in a different relationship at that point, and you were probably I don't know, twelve games in or something like that in San Jose between playing I think it was between the Seattle and the Raiders West Coast trips out there.
Yep, and we had Sanford, we had two West Coast.
Yeah, that's right.
But I remember that and going that's pretty interesting that that here's this legendary head coach and he's busting this rookie walls.
And but you it was.
It was normal, no doubt.
And I would say the thing about Bill, you know, an interesting thing out there. I got benched going against san Fran on third down, because he put me in a position like I'm out there on third down and I was messing up some calls. He's like, you know, forget it, you're not even playing on third down. But I didn't look at that as like a slap in the face. Obviously, when you get benched it hurts at the time, but that benching really made me into the player that I was, because it was like, well, I'm
not as good as I really think I am. And so like the way he's able to get the most out of players, the way he's able to, uh, you know, pull a lever here and there to get a guy to respond. Everyone's everyone's different as far as what makes him tick. Right, So some people, you know, intrinsic versus extrinsic motivators. Right, So extrinsic being like the money and all that stuff, you know, a pat on the back.
The intrinsic motivator is like, I'm just disappointed in myself, like you know, getting a getting we call him at a boys. Getting an at a boy from Bill was like it was a huge because he didn't just patch you on your back for doing your job. And we always talk about doing your job. If you're just out there doing your job and you make the tackle, make it sack, you're doing your job. He's not patting you on your back. It's expected. And so like it's just different.
And we've had we've had vets come to this team, and you know, multiple vets come to me and like, man, you know, I'm out here making plays and Bill's not saying anything to me. I'm like, bro, just pump your brakes. That's not how you know, That's not how it operates here. And so now when I look at the generation coming in, it's almost like, wow, all these kids get pats on the back the entire time, and so when they come in,
that's how they grow up. Right, So whether it's you know, AAU and then college and especially with the transfer portal, now kids can just like bounce around. They're not playing bounce around, and really that's like I don't think that's you know, when I talk to my kids, I don't want them to run away or shy away from adversity, right, Like that can't be your first option.
Like I'm leaving, and I know.
Everyone has their own reasons and doing things like that, but at the same time, you only grow through pain, And so when I talk about that, I'm not talking about just physical pain. I'm talking about emotional and mental pain as well. That's how you get stronger and build the mental dexterity. That's how you get You know, your muscles don't grow unless they're sore the next morning, right if you go and work out. If you go and work out, if your biceps aren't sore the next morning,
you didn't do enough. The same thing with your mind, right, Like if you come in there, if you haven't really pushed yourself or put yourself in an uncomfortable situation like every single day, Like, how can you expect to grow? It's just not going to happen if you're just sitting there doing the same thing over and over and over again.
Like I mean, it's that's why I always talking about like imposter syndrome, always feeling like you're not good enough, because that's what really that's what really gets me going, and hopefully it gets the guys going where you always feel like you're not good enough and so I have to do more, I have to do extra.
I love the Atta boy stuff. I remember Bill at a press conference. It was one hundred years ago. I don't remember when, what year, but yeah, we're not really big on positive. It's like one of those someone had asked him, you know, a question about that would maybe it was from a player. Yeah, maybe that's what sparked the reporter to ask the question. Yeah, we're not we're not really big on that around yet. And that that falls right in line with what you're talking about the
three down. You know, you talked about sort of losing some time on third down. How is that role changed or is it changing with linebackers. Do you see as many guys that can play on three downs or less guys coming out of college?
And do you expect it as one who did like like I did it, Why can't you you know?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I think I think there's still players out there that have the ability to play on third down, you know. And saying that, I would say a lot of these kids coming out of college just aren't being taught like some like the some things that we consider base sation at the professional level. No shot to the kids or the programs around around the country, it's just that are
not being taught now. As far as you know, the game is obviously started to expand horizontally, right, so now it's like spread more spread, especially in the college ranks, and some of that stuff starting to leak over into the NFL. So I look at it as this, if a guy can run, all right, if a guy can run and stop, because that's another important thing, right, If you can't stop, that's a problem, then I'll work with you.
And you have the ability to do it. Now, if you have the want to and the ability, we got to go out there and actually, you know, sharpen our sword each and every day. But going back to your point, I think there are two different buckets. Like if you play linebacker on third down, either you can cover someone or you can rush. I'll uh, you know, Dante Hi Tower playing you know, in that buck role as a floater, right,
just floating around as that fourth fourth lineman. And and so I think this year though, I think, you know, just thinking about the guys that we have in the room, we have some guys that can rush and cover. And so we had you know, some guys that you know, past nation, they haven't even heard of problems, right, and so that's right, and so that and that to me is the exciting part. That is the exciting part, the unknown, and we're gonna go into it as a unit. We're
gonna going into it together. And I would say, you know, even right now, not having some of those older guys in the room, it's beneficial for the younger guys because the older guys will be bored out of their minds with some of the things we're talking about. At the same time, it's forcing the younger guys to really take that step forward and really grow and develop without being hindered by any other uh, any other guys experience.
When you became an older guy, Were you ever bored in the room?
Oh?
Absolutely, because it's human nature.
But I guess I would never I wouldn't have guessed that that maybe you did a good job faking it.
No, No, I would say this.
I became more involved in the game planning, and I became more involved in what was actually happening on the field as a player. And so, you know, whether it was Matty p or you know, Pat Graham or whoever, it was like, we would have conversations, one on one conversation, so I didn't get bored, and so we exactly I got it in different places. Now, I was never disrespectful in the meetings or anything. I've fallen asleep or anything like that in the meetings. At the same time, like
I want to get into the nitty gritty. I want to know the why. And so when a player is like, oh, you know, when I got into coaching, you know, people were like, you know, this guy, it was always a negative. This guy asked so many questions, and I'm like, no, that's a good thing. I want these guys to understand the why, why we're doing it, Why I want you
to do it this way. Now, I always tell him, you know sports and in sports, and I would say football in particular is a very iterative sport, like you have to go out there and try things. And so I'm not saying to go out in the game and try things, but during this time during the spring, during training camp, like this is how I want you to do it. But if you're hard headed and want to try it that way, go out there and try and
see what happens. Now, you can make a play here and there, but at the end of the day, like we're trying to make as many plays as possible and hopefully we come to some common ground. I'm not a guy who's stuck in my ways. I'm not static. I'm always looking for ways to grow. Even when I'm talking to these college kids, like virtually, I'm like, so, what did you guys call this?
Right?
I'm trying to listen to these guys and try to pick up a few nuggets as well, because I'm not sitting here saying like I have all the answers. I know I don't or that even Bill has all the answers, and I think he knows he doesn't have all the answers, which is a good thing. And I think just learning from, you know, other people outside this building is always beneficial.
So you go.
Ahead just getting to that, you know, not being set in your ways. You talked about maybe some of the changes in the game, you know, more horizontally spreading out. Have you seen a difference in the linebackers themselves? The linebackers. There's a lot of talk about the Georgia kids, and I'm not putting you on the spot boat. You know what the draft is going to unfold over the weekend.
But you never would have thought of a two hundred and twenty five and thirty pound guy being able to play in the inside in the NFL.
You'd have laughed at that when.
You were coming out, right, do you see that change?
Is it?
Is it something that is happening or is it something that is just a fact?
I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on. I think where people get in trouble, I think good teams. I also use the Titans as an example, like that's almost a contrarian way of playing offense in today's world by having the fullback in there by having a big running back, and so it's all good to have small backers that can run and do all this stuff. When
you're playing against spread offices. It's like, all right, now, what happens when it's January in Buffalo or January and you know wherever, and they're going to run the ball fifty times with a twohundred and fifty pound running back, Like you have to have some answer to that. So I think that you know the answer is to have a combination of know, bigger guys and also small guys that can run. And you know, we say it all
the time. We're a game plan defense. We change each and every week, and you know, should have changed for that Buffalo playoff game.
But that's either here there.
Okay, So you're talking about you're talking about difference of opinion, and we're going to try things a different way. I want to take you back to the super Bowl you lost, and I have a fall up question about that. But how against the grain is it? Because I'm going to assume that this happened. I think that's what it certainly looked like to the lay people. Heyg rod, we're gonna let him score on this play. How difficult is that as a player whose job it is to stop them?
How difficult is that from a you're just not brought up to do that?
That's right, But I would say here we talk about situational football more than a lot of other places. And the reason I know that is because when guys come here, they have no clue what we're talking about. And we had you know, that situation in particular, Like we talk
about that when there's no stress. So when there is stress, it's not like why are we doing this right, It's like, all right, we've talked about this in a low stress environment, so when we get into a high stress environment, it's not a huge panic attack on the sideline.
But it's tough.
It's tough to do that, but you also have to understand, like we're trying to win the game at the end of the day, we're trying to win the game. If that's letting them score, then yeah, mean that's what you gotta do.
Does that lost, Uh? Does that loss still bother you?
Absolutely? Absolutely? You know.
But honestly, when I when I think about that team, we weren't even even really supposed to be there, Like we probably weren't the bet. We were not the best team and.
Lost to the You lost to the Giants that right, And that's like a similar kind of game. I'm not a I don't know anything about point spreads or anything like that, but I remember like going into the game and the Patriots were a touchdown favorite, and go, wait a minute, didn't the Giants beat the Patriots in the wing?
Like?
How are they?
How are they under The thing that heard about that game is we had opportunities to win the game, as you know, as you know, we were in a but I would say we were a good team, just not a weren't a great team like I've been.
We're a good team.
We're a good team, and you know, we had opportunities, whether it was the cover two, you know, pot shot over there, you know over on, we're chung and those guys where, or you know, it's just a good throw byt Eli. It was a great throw. It was a perfect.
One of the great underrated plays in Super Bowl history.
And like even the you know, west On the drop ball, like everyone thinks about those plays. But at the same time, it's like, man, there's so many plays like the forced fumble. I forced the fumble on that game. We didn't get it back. It was just the ball wasn't bouncing our way. And I don't want to say it haunts me, but I do. I do think about that game, and as a player, you think about the next the super Bowl that I was a part of, I wasn't a part of I was.
I was hurt.
I got hurt in twenty fifteen, so lost to twenty eleven. Now I have to win one as a head coach, hopefully so.
But you mentioned that I was going to ask you, you know, was the was forty nine bitter sweet for you?
It?
Uh? I don't want to say bittersweet because you know.
You're do you do you still feel like a lot of people are injured, say men, I don't feel like I'm part of it. I was still and one of the rare things, correct me if I'm wrong in this. Like most of the guys that are injured, you are dead. You never see those guys.
That's right.
Bill knew that there was something special about you, and I was he one of the first people that this guy was on the sideline during I remember travel. That's a rarity at that point time, wasn't it.
Yeah, it was, And I would say, and I was also a part of those you know, I was breaking down film and you know, getting with Steve and you know, you know, ever since I got heard it was and I did it three years in a row. You think about it, I was hurt three years in a row at various at various times. But I never wanted to be the guy who just bailed out on the team, especially after being voted captain you know, seven out of
eight years, you know, by your peers. And so for me, it was always like I'm here to support as much as possible. I know, the coaches have a lot of things to do. I know, the defense probably just as well as some of these coaches, you know, not no shot to anyone, but I've done it for a while and you know, I would have those meet I would run meetings with those guys. I would you know, talk ball with them all the time. And it was it
was sweet, it was there was no bitterness. You know, obviously I wanted to play the game, but it was it was good to get one.
How about some of the players that you you went against, you know, some of the some of the teams, some of the rivalies. Just when you were talking about the eleven team, my mind went right to the Baltimore game. Sure, you know, like, what are some of the games that you remember the most? Some of the players that you remember most going against?
Yeah, the ball, you know, anytime you play a team like that, whole division really is like Baltimore or Cleveland, Pittsburgh. It's like, you know, it's going to be a physical game, especially back then when teams have fullbacks. And that's that's back when the Jets were pretty good as well. So the Jets had great defense, they had you know, they also had a full back as well, So you knew that was going to be a tough game each and
every week. When I think about players though, where I'm like, wow, man, that guy is very good. I think about Tony Gonzalez all right, when we played him down in Atlanta and we could not stop him.
It didn't matter.
It was like we put I want to say, we put Jamie on him and couldn't stop him. I was on him even when I'm in position, couldn't stop him. And so yeah, Talip ended up having to check him because this guy, this is I mean, he's an old man at this point too, but he was just a freak of nature. And at the if you watch the end of that game, Jamie and I are pretty much vising them like we're side by side.
For That's why they changed the rule.
Now you can't have, you know, two sets of hands on the guy at the same time. You can't just vice the guy up. But we just straight doubled him at the line of scrimmage on this at the same level. And so they ended up changing the rule after that. But man, that guy was. He was good.
Another guy who.
People don't often talk about but had a had an unbelievable year was Peyton Hillis remember that Cleveland and the.
Pet It was I.
Knew that was gonna be and look I played him before and it wasn't the same. It wasn't like that.
He had one of those one of those days.
I don't know what he had one of those years. He had one of those years.
And you know, my thing was like, man, you know, Brandon Spikes one of the hardest hitting guys I've ever been around. Like if he was if he was gonna get you, he was gonna get you. And so a guy who wasn't strong in the weight room, but a guy who had a lot of pop on the field. And I still remember it was like the first quarter and Spikes had a clean hit at him, and I don't even think he saw Spikes. And I saw Spikes just fall to the ground. I was like, oh, shoot,
it's gonna be along. I went in with a form tackle, just rolled him up, just like, you know, forget it. But I knew right there it was gonna be a long day. Then we got hit with the fumble Rouski in the same game. It was just that was tough.
That was that was a bizarre game. It was very It wasn't often that you got blown out ever, No particularly by a bad team.
I would say.
All so, like anytime we played Peyton it was always like, you know, that game was a big deal.
You know, Peyton manning guys.
Just for you the quarterback on the defensive side and him on the other side. Could you get geeked up for that? Like, you know what, let me let me see what I can do against him, because this guy, he's the real deal on the other side. I want to try to match up with that.
Absolutely.
And I would say I had the benefit of going against Tom every day in practice, and Tom and I had multiple battles of you know, talking crap across the line of scrimmage and practice, and we had a lot of fun with it.
It springs up a great I don't know if you'll remember this, but I know Tom does because Tom was mad at me for like two years. So during training camp one year, these two Gerard and Tom go ahead to head and they're in each other's face and we put it on the cover of the paper. You know, hot, hot hot, you know training camp, it's you know, tempers are flaring. Tom was not happy you you let I both. I went to both of them, Aulie and I apologize
that I didn't mean nothing like that. You guys really fought, Like if you read this like we never once, you know, sort of implied that you guys were really fighting. It was just it was a great photo. It was you guys doing executly what you're talking about, getting the best of each other. From a competitive standpoint, Tom was not happening you. You did exactly what you just did. Right there. When I said, hey, I apologize, don't, Tom looked at me like he wanted to stab me, Like.
He has he has that image to maintain the angel. I'll tell you a funny Tom story. Like you know, he's he's.
A great competitor.
And you know, the quarterback position is a very weird position, like you're you're protected by five three hundred plus pound guys. You're protected by play calls and you'll get the ball out quick, and you're protected by the referee. So it's a very interesting position. And usually those guys don't walk around like headbutting. This guy's pregame And so I'm sitting there, you know, and Tom and I always chatted up, you know, pregame. I'm on the sideline. No, you know how we do.
We kicked the field goal at the end, yes, and so we're just out there. I have my helmet on this unbuckled, don't have my mouth pie saying I'm ready to go in and Tom, I hear my name, Mayo. I turn around and it's Tom and he head butts me, splits my tooth right down the middle. Right, I'm talking ten minutes before the game split. And I'm so pissed. I'm so pissed because my tooth is split down the middle and you know, going this way, going straight across.
And so I'm like, you know, I go out there, I have a great game, right because I'm pissed off the whole game. And afterwards, I'm like, Tom, you're buying me a new set of teeth, and you're you're paying for it. And I want to go to your Dennis.
I haven't. I haven't cashed in yet. I will though soon.
So this is before your time a little bit. And I don't know if you've ever seen the footage. Paul will remember this. I certainly in Super Bowl thirty nine, and I think he did it for many regular season games. It was Tom and Daniel pregame and Tom would grab him by the face mask and they would repeatedly butt heads. Now clearly, at some point times we said dude, what are you doing?
Like?
This isn't like, this isn't great And he changed, but it was a pregame routine.
He and Graham would literally remember it.
Well, yeah, bang helmets before they read on the field. Man, you've never seen anybody do that too.
No, that's crazy. Yeah.
I wanted to ask you real quick. You mentioned the games against Peyton being a little special, and I just you talked about the situational stuff, the famous fourth and two I think it was nine o nine. Just as a defensive player. Was there even a part of you that was like, Bill, what do you do? We can we could stop them? What are we doing?
Man?
You know, honestly, like it's easy to second guess those decisions. You know that decision, you know whether to take the ball and not take the ball. It's easy to second guess those decisions. Sometimes we would go out there, we would you know, be on fire. It's like, this is why this is my problem. I shouldn't say problem, but this is like the pushback or other side of the coin with the analytics thing, which is a huge piece.
Now all the owners want to talk about.
Oh, everybody would go for it. Now, everybody would go.
For that exactly, but there's also a flow to the game that you have to feel like who's you know exactly, who's playing well, who's playing poorly?
Like where's the momentum? Like what's the weather? Like?
All those things have to be taken into account on those decisions. And honestly, I never really second guess. I shouldn't say never, because there's always times when you get together with the group you're like, man, I wish I had the opportunity, especially if it didn't work out, like I wish I had the opportunity to go out.
There and you know, make a play. But is what it is.
So I got I got two here for you. Then we can wrap this thing up. You know you said this, you're going into your fourth year of coaching, right in your first year. Maybe if you're checond year, I don't know, maybe even today, when you see something go out in the field, do you ever have an inkling like, damn, man, I could still make that play.
Let me go out there and make that.
Was there a tough transition when you first started coaching to going I can give them fifteen snaps this morning isn't where I needed to be. Let me do it.
I always you know, those those thoughts always come in my head. Then I'm like, man, I feel great on Monday, so they quickly go out out.
Not like your buddy, your heart old buddy Vrabel putting the stuff.
I do things like that.
But as far as just you know, honestly, like on Mondays, it's just like, man, I'm kind of sore, like.
I feel great.
I feel great, and I work out, you know how I want to work out when I want to work out, not worried about anything.
So and you.
Mentioned earlier in this conversation, Gerard, you were talking about diversity, and you're saying, you know, it's not just a skin thing. You know, it's a there's generational diversity, there's everything like that. You're in a unique position where this is a big topic of conversation on an enormous platform. Do you feel this is my word so I don't want to put
words in your mouth. Do you feel encouraged that this is being at least addressed and there's an attempt to try to do this to fix wrongs where yes, the focus might be on skin color at this point in time, but I loved what you said about generational diversity. Diversity of thought. Diversity of thought, like that phrase. We shouldn't dislike each other. If I say it's cloudy and you go, no, man, it's sunny. I'm entitled to my opinion. You're entitled to
your opinion. Do you see that maybe it's only in the infant stages that progress is at least trying or there's an attempt at trying to make progress.
Yeah, I definitely think, you know, the thought is definitely there. I think it's the top of mind, not only for coaches but also owners. There's still a lot of work that has to be done. And I would say some of these guys, and you know, minority coaches in general, even when they became head coaches, the stick was so short.
That it was like the least was so tight.
They really didn't have an opportunity like and this is why you're starting to see a lot of people go to this whole you know, forget the draft mentality, because the pressure to win right now is so high, no matter if you're white or black or it doesn't matter. It's so high that people are like, you know, like,
forget the draft, we need to win now. But I would say, look at what happened in Sensi, right, you know, was Zach look at that situation versus whether like Vance Joseph or you know, any of those guys, like one year and it's like bum done. Now Zach, Zach's in the Super Bowl. It was sincy and so he had time. He had time and the expectation and Sensey obviously is a little different than other cities in the country. But at the same time, I would say the least was
just different. My heart goes out more to Look, this is only my fourth year coaching, and I understand I'm very fortunate to even get the interviews that I've had to this point.
I've had.
Three interviews. I've had three interviews, uh in three years, Right, three interviews in three years. I feel very fortunate to have those interviews. I learned a ton, I met a bunch of great people. I feel bad for guys like Leslie Fraser, you know, I feel guys. I feel bad for guys even you know Todd Bowles. Now he's getting the opportunity, but I was feeling bad for him as well. Those coaches who it's like, what else do they have
to do to prove? And look, I don't know these men, I've met them, but I don't know them off the
field or anything like that. But if you were just to you know, strip strip the color all that stuff away and just put resumes up, like their resume is pretty sure they have some strong resumes, right, And so if you think about it that, when I know some Fortune five hundred companies, they have some you know, some things to kind of remove biases from applicants, like whether it's color or gender, age, they remove them from the resumes.
You guys heard about this before, yes, yeah, so they remove them to try to, you know, try to remove biases. You know, you would hope that the league would get to a point where they're just going to hire the best person. And honestly, I don't want to be hired because I'm black. I've said this time and time again, like don't hire me and don't bring me in for an interview just because I'm black.
Bring me in for an interview because you're curious. Bring me in for.
An interview because you think I can lead your team to a super Bowl championship.
And that's how I think about it.
I feel like I feel like I'm a good coach now, I feel like I have a long way to go. I feel like I've long way to go as far as you know, the exendy knows. But at the end of the day, this game comes down to the players. And I always say it. You know, players win games and coaches lose games. So if you can't get the players to really perform for you, then it's on us as coaches.
Did you enjoy playing? Did you enjoy your NFL days?
Loved them? I loved my NFL days. Look I'm still in the league now, you know as a coach player, Oh yeah, yeah. As a player, I love those days. I love the camaraderie. I love being in the locker room with those guys. I love everything that we did on the field together.
You know.
Obviously there's sometimes where it's like, man, you know, it's ninety five degrees, I am tired. But at the end of the day, anytime you get a group of people together that have one common goal, it's a beautiful thing. Whether we're talking about selling, you know, on a sales team, whether we're talking about you know, a football team, a
basket it doesn't matter. Anytime everyone is putting, you know, their ego aside, right because remember, like ego is the enemy of all this stuff, right if they put their ego aside.
And go after a common goal.
And that's one thing around here, Like you can't have an ego in this building, right, It's like one ego.
That's it.
You can't have an ego in this building. And and honestly, we're like, you got to think about ego in general. Ego lives in the past, and it lives in the future. Like we have to live for today. And that's what I'm all about, living for today and really just getting the guys to go out there and perform.
Give me one signature Girod Mayo play that you remember as your.
Favorite signature Jerrod Mayo play.
That's a tough one. Man.
There are so many plays where even if it wasn't a tackle or anything like that, where I just, you know, smack an offensive lineman because you know this guy was a Pro Bowl offensive lineman. They've been hyping him up the whole game, you know, knocking this guy like, you know, hitting them very hard.
Or I'm trying to think I've had.
My favorite game was that Washington game in two thousand and at Washington.
And that's a game that I remember a specific play about.
You, and ye I thought that, Hey, but but yeah, but I would say this, it wasn't even the play. The night before I signed my contract extension. Okay, so that whole weekend it was like, all right, fly to Washington, this is my hometown, like you know, the DMV area, Fly down there. I signed my contract the night before the game, I go out there and get a.
Game, big hit to cause the turnover.
I caught the pick. I caught the pick in the game. So that was a great That was a great time, you know, not just the game, but just that whole weekend.
Fantastic conversation. Gard really appreciate you.
I appreciate you guys having appreciate your curiosity. Appreciate your curiosity.
Gerard may Or, our guest on this edition of the Pats in the Past podcast.
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