Some of the content in this podcast may not be suitable for all audiences.
Listener discretion is advised.
It's time now for another episode of The Dynasty wrap up show. Matt Smith alongside with Mike Usoa Paul Brillow. The ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is streaming now exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Series is over, Guys nine and ten is over. Paul off the ear, you made a comment, Mike, I think you might have made it too. You really liked these two episodes, Paul, tell me why.
Yeah. I thought it was a good finish. I thought it started strong the series, and I think it ended strong. I mean, there's obviously things that we're going to talk about, you know, the next half hour, so that you know, some some quibbles and problems with things they included. But I thought that they did a good job of illustrating what had become an untenable divide between Bill Belichick, Tom Brady with Robert Kraft sort of trying to mediate from the outside with some of that stuff new to.
You, sure, I mean that was what made it good for me, And I think there was so much speculation during that time, a lot of it between the fans and the media and what's really going on, and some people don't want to believe, you know, that there's anything going on. And I think that these episodes and not only shine a light that there were things going on and from the people themselves, but they also in landed
the plane. They also brought it all back together for me in a way that said, you know what, it wasn't perfect. It was definitely bumpy at the end, and there were you know, people that were not as quite as happy with each other as they once were. But in the end it all worked. This is the Dynasty still and you still kind of I still left with a good feeling. I got chills down the end of
that second episode, episode ten. So I thought they really did a good job, especially just shining a light on really kind of a mysterious period of the end of the Patriots.
Dynis Mike probably touches on something that you know, you at like, you know, what do you like about those last two episodes while we and it probably is a selfish thing because I remember doing shows. We were doing shows right here, you know, talking about in sort of you know, reacting to various reports that were coming out seth Wickersham things and one after not we just got beaten up. Why are you listening to these reports? What do you know? You know whose talks like that? What
you're just making it up? Now, this is not reality. And what these two episodes and really the whole documentary series showed was that they weren't making it up. There was issues. They held it together. It's amazing they held it together as long as they did, but they were issues at the end that were causing it to be sort of untenable and coming to an inevitable end.
So let's quibble. Starting with episode nine, and I've used this line before. Who had Fife and Drum and Trump to kick off episode nine on their bingo card?
I thought that was a really interesting way to open it up. And I think, you know, you assumed that there was tension there with the team and obviously everything that was going on. I always kind of felt like I knew that Bill Belichick and Donald Trump had relationship prior, and I always kind of felt like Donald Trump threw Bill Belichick under the bus by reading a personal letter out loud and probably never something that Bill Belichick wanted
getting out, knowing how private he was. But I also thought they kind of glossed over Brady having the MAGA hat and his thing as well, so you know, there was him being on the sideline as a guest of craft, right, and that they didn't mention it though, and they mentioned it, but they didn't say that detail though, did they. They didn't point that out about Brady. They said the three, but they didn't say anything out Brady. So that that
was what stood out to me. And again that's a relationship that went back before Donald Trump became a political figure and mailed him a hat and it didn't mean what it means now, and Brady had in his locker, So I don't, you know, necessarily think that those things were meant to be over signs of support for the policies of Donald Trump. But they kind of got caught in that whole situation and caught up in.
And I thought, you know, mccordy and Slater were good on that topic. I think Slater said something to the effect of he didn't think that that Belichick at the time was maybe connected enough to the players, And I thought that was a strong comment. The same time, I do step back and I look at it just the way you just said, Mike, with the you know, the Trump thing was you know, I don't really think the Trump thing was a huge part of this divide. I mean,
I know, on the surface it looks that way. At the time, my mind's eye didn't tell me that that was a big part of the issues between coach and player. It was kind of a thing that got really heated at the time league wide, you know, and then you know, Trump coming out and then you know, saying these guys should be fired and things like that. Trump sort of was at the firestorm of that more so that I thought than the Patriots individual, right, I'm not here to.
Defend Bill and Bill's taking some shots of this. I actually thought Bill's response with regards to the question about Trump made a lot of sense. Yeah, you know, I've heard Robert Craft say the same thing. They were friends first. Obviously, his presence in the political arena has blown up as to what people think of him and everything like that. But at the end of the day, Bill Belichick was friendly with Donald Trump, as was Robert Kraft with Donald Trump.
They didn't look at him as a Republican nominee or the president of the United States and then when he becomes that he probably used things to his advantage. That probably did Bill and Robert and Tom to that for that matter, with the hat a disservice.
So I and I would just say, like, you know, you asked, you know what our squabbles are, you know what of our problems, quibbles whatever, Okay, So I would just say, you do a good job of sort of presenting the landscape. At the time, they show that sort of powerful moment with all the players. I think it was the Houston game where they're all taken a knee and that was a huge I'm not disminishing it was a huge thing at the time. What was the what do you what do you remember about the Patriots sort
of emerging from that? I remember Bill Belichick having a huge meet and the players talked about this at the time. They had a meeting and they got to the bottom of it and they figured out what they were going to do as a team. Correct. I thought Bill Belichick showed incredible leadership at the time. And I remember thinking that at the time, it's a very difficult landscape to navigate, you know, sixty something year old white guy trying to deal with a powder keg here, and I thought he
definitely handled it. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get any of that here. I would have liked to have heard mccordy and Slatter talk about the aftermath and how they moved on from that. We didn't get it. Mike.
I want to ask you a question. I thought, as we move off of the politics in Trump to this episode really sort of crystallizes where the Belichick Brady relationship started to go south. And I thought Tom Curran really did a nice job of providing insight. I think we all remember that Tom Curran was as part of Camp Brady and he had he was reporting that down the stretch, and I think he lended a very credible was a credible source in this to kind of detail how things
had just changed. As his sister said, Tom had changed.
Yeah, I mean I thought, you know, Tom was great throughout the series. I mean just you know, he's always entertaining to listen to. But you know, I think what I kind of came out wondering was how did they
keep it together past this seventeen season? Like, I think that was what I was most surprised about, was just how everything seemed to really be coming to a powder keg that season, and that in my mind again, it's like you kind of extract yourself from the viewing experience and then you remind yourself they won the Super Bowl the next year, and it seemed like things were as
bad as it could possibly be at that point. Certainly, the introduction of Alex Guerrero kind of made chuckle, and he was, you know, kind of a device to illustrate some of Tom's evolution of what he needed for himself to succeed. And you kind of understand Bill's point of view as well on that, and you know, a little bit of a quibble, I would say, and I think that they landed like again, not to say land the plane again, but I think that they came out at the end.
A little bit better with this.
But I just think Bill Belichick was a little bit more of a three D complicated person then.
They could have.
I think they could have hit that a tiny bit better in this series of you know, there are moments when he turns the charm on. There are moments when you're like, this guy's cracking me up and I'm enjoying him. I didn't see enough of that quite and I felt like they kind of because of Bill's you know, kind of press conference bill that he presented in this it was all kind of left to Ernie Adams to give you the only kind of real infilm.
Yeah, A good point, and I do think this episode, episode nine, I do think gave a good illustration of just how serious that the the sort of separation had become.
You know, Robert Craft is saying that, you know, he felt that the you know, the tension with Bill, specifically among Bill and Tom, and that I think Robert and Alex Guerrero, you know, talking about how Bill had started to sort of separate from that team first mentality that he had always so famously had, and you know, and as it goes through that, you know, you sort of get to Okay, So now they're starting to work with Alex,
and now it's not just Tom, it's the receivers. And it's not just Tom and the receivers, now it's Gronk. And then they tell that story about sort of Belichick lighting up Gronk about being too weak, that's why you're getting thrown around on the field. And I thought as much as there was sort of the anti Bill with some of the players. I thought Amandola who came in who had some incendiary things to say about Bill. He said, you know, I can totally understand why you can't have
two trainers. You can't have different, you know, outside sources. And this is a guy who was doing the TV twelve stuff. A Mondola was tight with Edelman and Brady and doing the band work, but he understood why it angered Belichick. And I thought that offered at least some semblance of balance.
And I thought Ernie helped hammer that point home too, like you've got a whole strength and conditioning staff, you've got a training staff for the team. You can't have one guy go, you know, or twelve guys go run off and do their own thing.
I really found Brady to be a sympathetic figure. And I mean not that I didn't beforehand, but I think, you know, just the way that he talked about the difference that Alex Guerrero made for his body, It's like, how can you argue with this?
You know?
And that was kind of the point they made in the documentary as well. But to hear Brady explicitly say, my elbow has heard me since high school and now I don't have pain anymore? What like, what else do you want to ask? And I think that kind of illustrated the bare point of the series, which was that it worked really well early on when Bill was a task master and he was over Brady and he'd never give him the credit, and it helped Brady ascend to
great heights. But later on, when he continued to kind of take that approach with him, it started to push Brady away. And I you know, you wonder could Bill have done something different. It doesn't seem like in his DNA to adjust his coaching that way.
I agree with you on the DNA part, but I also want to go back to something that you said off the air a little bit, and it was about what Nancy said that Tom had changed right the video in Tokyo. I mean, this was a This was not the guy that we saw Pisode one with Dave NuGen.
Bigger than why doing.
Playing technobol okay, this was Capital T Tom, Capital B. Brady, who is now one of the biggest stars in the planet. And I think Tom Brady realized that. And why am I being treated like the other fifty two guys here?
Right?
I'm Tom F and Brady. He didn't say that. I'm saying that, you know, but I think we have to realize that he changed as well.
And that's why I think what Mike said makes a lot of sense. I think everybody acknowledges Nancy Brady, you know, included that Tom had changed. Why couldn't Why couldn't Bill? Yeah, you know, like Bill had to sort of remain like, No, he didn't have to. We should have been able to. It's part of listen, the guy is the greatest to ever do what he has done right. Six titles speaks for itself. But the best examples of coaching and leadership are being able to adapt and adjust to your various
personnel and your various personalities. And I think in this particular case, for whatever reason, he felt it was really important to continue to treat him like Johnny Foxborough, like you always had, and.
To continue to treat, you know, to at least outwardly what he says he's doing what's best for the team. Came one of the seminal moments in the entire dynasty, and that's a benching of Malcolm Butler. I think there was some pre release chatter that you were going to find out definitively, We the viewer, we the fans are going to find out definitively why he sat Paul, it didn't happen.
You don't. You don't find that out. And there was I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Bill on the topic. I wasn't surprised to hear nothing from Malcolm Butler on the topic. And you didn't. Okay, what I was really jarred by was I think the genuine nature that came across when, like Devin mccordy has asked, he, I mean, if he's lying, if he's covering up for something he belongs on Broadway, I mean that performance he definitively tells you.
I have absolutely no idea why he didn't play, And I don't know how anyone could watch that and not believe them.
No, And that's the issue, right, that's you know, what the whole thing was. And you know, for Robert to come out and say I was told it was something personal and then to you know.
Just draw that parallel of talk about.
Doing things that are right for the team and if this was personal, this felt outside of that realm and it felt more that that relationship was continue to, you know, to get more and more friction built around it, and that you know, seems like a huge thing. Then leading into the next Super Bowl, where I think Robert said I'm going to have my eye on him for super Bowl fifty.
Three, which I thought was very strong words that I don't think most people knew. I'm gonna have my eyes on him. He tagged basically the lots and put that on Coach Belichick. And so now you're going from seventeen to eighteen. You know, you not in the series, but you scrambled to keep Josh. You needed Josh McDaniels. Thank God for the Patriots that he came back and left Indianapolis.
At the altar, there's a tremendous amount of tension heading into this, and I think they made a point to say, with everything going on, Robert Kraft, did that Bill maybe convinced him that year that you could still win with way that I think we all think that Bill likes to win what with which is good defense, don't turn the ball over. You can win that way, And they rode that formula basically to winning that Super Bowl.
You're talking about eighteen now, yeah, yeah, I mean, just real quick before that, I thought, you know, as you led up to the seventeen super Bowl, you know, I thought Robert definitively telling us that he told Bill, We're not trading Tom Brady ever, right, So that leads to the Garoppolo deal. In my mind, I think, you know, it's it's left unsaid in the documentary, but I think, you know, there was sort of a feeling that he was kind of grieving a little bit without Garoppolo. I
think someone put it that way. And then, you know, when you get down to the aftermath of the lost super Bowl against Philly, and like I said, the players and like I still I believe, like I belie that Devin mccorty has no idea why Malcolm Butler didn't play. I believe that, you know, Amidola saying, you know, as players, we felt cheated a little bit. And then I thought, Matt your point that Roberts said basically he was unnotice.
He was put on notice going into that eighteen season. Ultimately, I think for the long term of the Patriots, it was unfortunate the way the super Bowl game unfolded, Like they scored forty points you know, in the playoff games to get to the super Bowl. But the Super Bowl itself they won thirteen to three. And what matt said I think got validated is I think Robert looked at it and says, well, he can still win his way.
I look back at it and said, well, they won one game that way in the last five years, would tell me that's not the way to try to win.
Mike, were you surprised to the extent of which Brady admitted in Matthew Slater admitted that there wasn't a lot of conversation going on between the head coach and the quarterback.
No, and that was I think, you know, one of the strengths of this, like I said, was really the spotlight being put on this relationship and how much it was devolving. You know, It's it's funny because I tend to look at things just generally through the football lens, and we never thought that the twenty eighteen twenty eighteen team was that great, And even now it's like, how did they pull this all together? And you could see like the joylessness and you know, the highlights that they
were showing of touchdown nobody's really celebrating. And I'm thinking back to the nine documentary of you know, Bill put putting up video of guys making big plays and nobody really celebrating, and here it is, and you know, usually I feel like that's a death sentence for a team.
This isn't a team that has championship caliber, but they were somehow, and it's just it shigned a whole new light for me on that Super Bowl win, both from how did they how were they able to pull up probably you know, just to credit to Tom Brady and you know, the Gronk and then the big plays that were made, but also just how how are they able to all work together and make that still happen?
Did you see joy in the aftermath of the AFC Championship game against in the City Shure, That's the only game that showed by the way, the eighteen season was the.
ACT champions and that is the only game that I thought that they showed genuine joy, you know, obviously until the Super Bowl. Yeah, I did. But I also thought it was really interesting the way they said, like we leave off nine with Robert Kraft putting Bill on notice. You opened ten with Bill understanding that and Bill making some concessions, you know. Alex Guerrero was back, he was allowed back in the facility and whatnot, and some of those things that happened but really stood out to me.
And you mentioned this off air too, matt was Bill and Tom were almost like not speaking, and it had become Matthew Slater's job to sort of.
Didn't want it.
He didn't want it.
Mike didn't sound like he wanted it.
And that to me was we're so used to We're just you know, Matthew Slater just retired, but he has been the spokesperson for this team for so long and keeping everybody in line. And to hear him kind of going to that side of the fence and really opening up about what was going going on, it was it was jarring to me.
It really was.
You've never heard Matthew Slater kind of be critical of Bill Belichick of what was going on in the locker room. He's always trying to bring people together and keep it rolling. So to me, some of those moments from Slater were the standout moments of the series.
Paul, I'm not surprised to hear Rob Gronkowski being critical. I'm not surprised to hear Danny m and Doola being critical. I think we knew that that was, you know, that really aid at them. I was surprised the first time I heard the Matthew Slater comments to hear from such a respected guy who retired just a second ago. You know, so he was still here when this was going on again, some of these things making you know, what if Bill was still the coach. I thought they were very honest.
But I will give me credit for this. He said what he said, but he always came back and he closed it by saying, we trust our you know, don't know why Malcolm didn't play in the super.
Bowl, but we trust, we trust our coach, and.
We ultimately trust our coach. And I think that that's what he believes, an old school.
Guy, and I think ultimately that's what allowed it probably just stay together. Was they will like questioning everything at this point, but at the same time, the guy had won five titles, so you still had that baseline trust.
I think one of the I would put him up for a Best Supporting Actor nominee for a documentary mini series. I thought Pioli was tremendous at the end to sort of summarize is it Tom's who gets credit? Is it Bill who gets credit. I thought that he was terrific when he was kind of upset and found it disrespectful Mike to choose sides.
Yeah, I mean it's kind of along the lines of Ernie Adams. Ernie Adams delivered it in his kind of own way. But I think Scott Pioli is, you know, somebody who was on the inside got out. He's in media now, he's well spoken, he's you know, had a chance to kind of evaluate this whole period, and so I think he's a he's you know, he's the spokesperson that you kind of hope Bill would be, you know, where you're upfront and just kind of, you know, this is how it was. Maybe Bill will get there someday.
But yeah, he was a great addition. And I mean I've talked to him a couple of times. I always of his perspective.
Now on the win, he was really good. I was a little disappointed. I want I wanted an answer, Yeah, I wanted an answer.
Were you surprised at how emotional on camera? Tom Brady wasn't talking about it with a couple of specifics here calling Bill to tell him that it's time to go. I didn't expect him to like gun the double clutch at that point in time, that one, that one hit me, you know, and his overall as he's trying to summarize it, I know, Tom's an emotional guy, and where's his emotions on his sleeves. I was surprised to the extent of how emotional he was.
Yeah, I was. I mean, that's that's him. Yeah, that's him. I wasn't overly surprised by that. I think he's a very it's a guy who got emotional in the draft, you know, like he's just been uh, he's Yeah, I think that. I think Nancy may have said it at some point during the series about you know, a sensitive He's always been a little bit of a sensitive guy.
Again, to go back how much I felt connecting with Tom Brady and I mean, in my notes, I just wrote down Tom deserved that seventh super Bowl, you know, and it's how can you watch Gronk and Tom and realize these guys are at the height of their craft, They're already being praised as the greatest players of all time. They just wanted to win and have fun and not come into this place and feel stressed out of their mind. And you know, so it it. You know, this this episode,
I mean it really it's hard to say. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it really cast a new light for me on a number of different things, from the super Bowl fifty three win to the twenty nineteen season and how miserable Tom seemed through that where it really seemed like it was going down to Tom winning that super Bowl and kind of just getting the you know, not I don't know what justification is the right word, but you know, just finally getting to get that win
on his own and to feel like I really did this one myself.
That you're a phrase about landing the plane is like it's to me, it's it's Tom. You know, I'm proud of our journey. And that's when he got emotional. It was perfect and it doesn't need to be anything more than that. You know, he did that got me and then and then Bill he probably it was probably the right thing. It was probably the right move.
Brutally honest, I thought, you.
Know, sort of as much as Builder, because Bill's not an emotional guy. Bill's not like Tom in that regard. Bill's very calculated. Not doesn't mean one's right the other's wrong. But for him to sit back and say, yeah, this is pretty good. I'm paraphrasing, this is pretty what we did is special, and he acknowledged that, like sort of looked back on it again. To your point, he was still the coach at the time. It had to be a sort of a conflicting sort of emotions and mentality
for him. But yeah, I thought it was a really nice way to sort of the last ten minutes. I thought it was really good, perfect, it was you know, it's just you.
You brought it all home and said, look, it was dramatic and there were things going on that we still maybe would like to know more about.
But at the end of the day, this is a.
Ten part documentary about a football team that played twenty seasons. And you know, I also came away, as you know, my fan side, I have three games to glory. I have America's game, I have to do your jobs. I have all all that behind the scenes, just talking football for a fan that I want. But if you're going to see the whole picture, I think you need to watch this.
So this is a Dynasty wrap up show that you're watching and listening to here and as a reminder, the ten part documentary event The Dynasty New England Patriots is
streaming now exclusively on Apple tv Plus. So for us, that's our wrap up of this series, but there's one more pod to do and we will talk with the director, Matt Hamichek, who has some very definitive opinions that Mike sort of alluded to on what went into his mentality of making this, as well as the author of the book The Dynasty, Jeff Benedict, who's also one of the executive producers. So stay tuned for that podcast coming up a little
Bit later on