This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan Lazar and Alex Bars.
And Lazarre.
Hello, everybody nailed it. Joined us always by our bar. Here is Evan Lazar and Alex Bars. Back from vacation and back to Patriots training camp.
And this is back from vacation. First off of congratulations you and Jesson as all the pleasantes. Meanwhile, I am over here. I remain married to the game another word for single, I'm to the game. I somehow missed that little quick from you last week.
Ow mean, I cracked myself up. Sometimes I gotta give myself credit for that one. That was at least making somebody laugh. Okay, fair enough, you know listen, I like I always say, you missed one hundred percent of the shots you don't take. So some of my jokes don't land, some of them do. That one was kind of funny. I'll give myself credit for that one. So Evin Lazard is Alex Bars Patriots Cash twenty two with you for
the next hour or so. You know, we tend to ramble, so it might be a little bit over the hour, but we'll see how long we go here today. But a lot to talk about a lot of positives to talk about it, like, we're not just this is look on Tuesday, Alex, you know I was texting you about it during practice.
So it's not like you were texting about it during practice.
You can just doubt me about this. I'm going to own this. I'm soar.
We were getting to a point on Tuesday where, yeah, the offense was a little stagnant and you know, they were still working through some things. Evan texts me and goes in so many words, he's worried. He is worried about the offense. Worried literally since the snap after that text, Yep, it's all because of me. They have been locked it. Like I think I literally sent you a text back after that. Well that was a good throw and it was I think the mac Jones touchdown, the Jujus and
the Schuster in the back of the end zone. Yeah, ever since you sent that text, you fixed the offense With that text.
You're giving me credit.
We might have to get well, just he did it, you guys. Well, but then Bill O'Brien it was me. But then the next day they got off to a little bit of a slow start. You texted me again and then mac Jones said his best practice he's had since the Giants practice is rookie year.
Yea.
So just keep sending the texts. Okay, that's what it comes down to. This whole season comes down to, Well, Evan keeps sending those texts.
There we go. So we'll lay this out and exactly go into a little bit more detail here, but I'd also just want to do some housekeeping. Shout out Marine behind the glass with us as always, and Zach is with us here today with Alex that he's shadowing our Alex, not this Alex today for the day. And Zach, you have one of the coolest stories I think anybody can tell other than you go into training camp every day like a psycho since you were like two years old
or something like that. But we came back last year from the Buffalo road game and the Patriots did not have such a good day that day, and we're all coming back on the team buses and we see a son and a father holding a sign that says thank yous as we're pulling into Gillette and all of us on the content bus. We don't mingle. We don't get to mingle with the coaches and players. We have our own separate bus, and all of us in the content bus were like, wow, that's that's so cool, Like to
who is that? We tried, you know, we obviously dug up who it was. Alex wrote a story about it, and it was Zach and his father that came out even it was what like twenty degrees, it was late at night. They did not win the game. They did not make the playoffs, as we all know, and he's been doing that though, are Alex talking to you now?
Since for years super Bowl champs or not even making the playoffs at eight and nine, him and his dad come out every year and hold up the signs and welcome the team back from whatever their final game of the year is. So that's really really cool. I think it's awesome just to see somebody that fair Weather not here right Like, it doesn't matter if they're winning the super Bowl or they're coming in what third place in the division and I'm making the playoffs. We don't need
to talk about too much about that. But let's get back to training camp. Shout out Zach, and thanks for hanging with us today. But I want to get into camp a little bit. And you mentioned my texts and my negativity about the offense on Tuesday and the place that I was coming from with the offense. And I understand where I went wrong, right, I understand where what I missed, But.
Sure, I'm not going to ride the roller coaster of training camp.
Here we are, We're on, We're on Superman at six Flags right now. The main thing that I was frustrated with was the missed opportunities or the meat left on the bone I thought from that practice and as.
Good as in terms of like taking completions but not pushing the ball right and so I can name specific places, which you know at the time was a fair assessment.
The main thing was is that I felt like a lot of people and I'm not calling anybody out, I just want to be honest. I felt like a lot of people were gassing up a lot of short completions and checked down by Mac Jones and we tear about these training camp stats and we here after practice Mac Jones finished the day eight for ten and team drills and that eighty percent completion rate. That sounds incredible. But what I'm more concerned about is one, is he running
into play properly? Of course, is the biggest thing, at least as far as I can tell. And two, how difficult are the throws? How much is he pushing himself and pushing the team, Because the main thing is is that does call spade to spade. They don't have a great offensive line right now, and they might not have a great offensive I think it's going to be better than what we've seen at practice when Mike on Winne, you and Cole Strange come back.
They only have two projected starters right now.
And I don't really know how good this group is going to be in general, even on paper if everybody's healthy. We've had concerns about the line all off season, mainly at tackle, which right now and we'll get to in
a little bit more detail, Connor McDermott. It looks like he's kind of locked up the right tackle job eight practices into camp, and as much as I have been impressed by what I've seen out of Connor McDermott, I'm not so sure that's a great thing that Connor McDermott is the best tackle that you have to start on the right side opposite Trent Brown. So I think the main thing was is that you have an so so offensive line. I think you have average skill players. I
think the skill players are okay. I don't think they're great. I don't think they're an elite, but I think they're okay.
And I think I'm good. And guys, all the skill players are gonna factor in Hunter Henry, We're gonna factor understy Good. I don' know, they're great, They're good, They're good, They're fine, They're good.
Yeah, And we looked at that practice on Tuesday, and that was the first time where things started to kind of show signs that things were clicking and guys were starting to get open a little bit more and more down the field, which is something that has been a
problem through five camp practices. And all of the sudden, Mac Jones is kind of missing some throws and everybody's writing about, Oh, it was this great practice, and I'm thinking to myself, like he threw in seven on seven, Juju Smith Schuster was open on a corner route and the ball hung up in the air and Marcus Jones nearly picked it off. Juju had to play defense, right, Juju became the defensive back, knock it out to knock
it out of out of Marcus Jones' hands. Later on, when they got into eleven on eleven's he had Gasiki open on a crosser and he short armed it and Mac Wilson broke up the pass, and these types of things were happening throughout the practice. I have a high standard for the quarterback. If there are open receivers down the field, I expect Mac Jones to make the throws.
And that's that's a fair expectation.
And I didn't feel like he did that on Tuesday. Now, what I missed, and this is maya kolpa here, what I missed is that I should have recognized that the receivers were actually getting open, right right, like the offense was actually starting to find a rhythm and starting to click. And then the last thing that sort of needed to come along was the timing and the ball placement and working out really the finer details of these sort of things.
And just as an example on that Kasiki play, I saw Mac kind of signal with his hand afterwards about potentially Gisicki drifting a little bit upfield, a further upfield than he thought. So what I missed on Tuesday was that that was a stepping stone to what we saw the last two.
Days and can I tell you what I think may have helped with that. As crazy as this sounds, and this is classic training camp, We're going to take one play and blow it up into something bigger. But so this was again kind of right after you sent me that text about you know, Max maybe missing some of these guys further down the field, he threw that deep ball to Kendrick porn. It was I mean, it was not complex. It was Kendrick Porne ran a straight line, ran by the corner. I want to say it was
Jalen Mills. I don't remember who it was.
No, it was wait wait just what play was it?
Discontinue over the go ball to to Kendrick Bourne that Mac like launched out oh yeaheah. And I mean again, no, nothing sexy, no intense concept. It was go run. He ran by the corner and Mac threw a deep to him and he missed him by about like a step,
like overthrew him by about the steps. Talk about that in a second, but yeah, on it so that after so you're texting, it's all checkdowns and you were right, and then that happened, and then all of a sudden he starts mixing in a lot more of this intermediate stuff. I almost feel like that was a moment where maybe he took the deep shot and it was incomplete, but he was like he was open, like this is gonna work.
I have a chance to make these plays. Let's try that again, because that seemed to kind of even though it was incomplete, it seemed to unlock something. Yeah, I total, although you sound less thrilled with that play, I am less.
Thrilled of it with that play, but not because I disagree with your point. The main point that I when I looked at that throw to Kendrick Bourne and then the next day he had a similar overthrow to Devonte Parker. Yeah, he he's got to recognize that he ain't thrown a Jalen Wattle and Devonte Smith right like he those guys are slower receivers. But with that being said, they're really
good at the catch point. So if he puts it on them instead of leading them into the end zone, if he just allows Devonte Parker to just go up to the tenth floor and pick it up and grab it, you know, over the defensive backs, That's how DeVante Parker is gonna win on a deep bat.
Which we've seen, which we've seen now Max start to do right and it's I think we talked about this a little bit on the last show, but it's really started to click the last couple of days. And they tweeted this and people were kind of confused. That's why I tweet it because it.
Sounds it sounds stupid.
But the Patriots, the Patriots and Mac Jones and these receivers, they figured out this concept that if you throw the ball high to the tall, wide receivers and let them jump and get it like, they're gonna be able to make plays. They're gonna be able to get to the ball.
He needs to know the strengths of the play, right.
I know that you don't love the idea of being like a purely contested catch offense, and I don't think and I don't think that's sustained to be purely contested catch. But for them to hit their ceiling this year, it's gonna have to be a decent part of what they do. That's just the roster they've built. And you can argue the roster should be built differently, but we're past that at this point. Yeah, there's gonna have to be an
element of fifty to fifty balls in this offense. And they and that's timing, that's chemistry.
You can tell by my face how much I hate that.
But they okay, but it's too late. It's too late. The team they have, Yeah, they are starting to really maximize some of those concepts here the last couple of days.
Yeah. So I think the coolest thing about yesterday's practice from max perspective and just from the offens's perspective in general. You know, Alex that I spent a lot of time this offseason trying to learn the Bill O'Brien offense as best as I could, maybe a little too well. Yeah, And there were instances during that practice where I could have told you the play. And that's cool because that
means that it's hitting exactly how it shook. Because I'm I'm no savants, So like, if I can tell just because of the way that they're running the routes and stuff like that, I could name the play, all that means that they're executing it exactly how it's drawn up on the whiteboard. Right, And there were a couple of different plays that hit like that that I was like, Oh wow, Like that's it's starting to come together. I think that.
Play, the Gaki throw or in the Smith Schuster touchdown, that was the big play I think on Wednesday, right.
So the Gaziki throw first was the first one where it clicked on and I was like, oh wow, like, that's that's teach tape of this concept. I don't want to name the concept again myself in trouble, uh, that's
teach tape of this concept. And what it was was Kendrick Bourne was in a a split or stack i should say, with Kasiki, where Kendrick Bourne's on the line of scrimmage and Kasiki's a little bit off the line of scrimmage, and Kendrick Bourne is just going to release vertical and that's going to create like a little pocket of space. And then Kasiki has an option route. If it's zone, he can sit in between the zones. If it's man, he reads the leverage of the defender and
just breaks opposite of the leverage of the defender. So all that's made possible by ken Boorn's release because it gives him that space to kind of make that operate, you know, to operate. It gives him that space to operate, and Kasiki recognized that the defender was outside of him, broke inside on a little angle route and Mac hit him in stride. And if it was a game, that would have been like a catch and run, yeah play.
And that was the first one where I was like, that was on time, That's exactly how it's drawn up the receiver, both receivers ran their routes perfectly, and they hit it, and that's that's a really good thing. The next one was the Juju play where they had the double dig concept. That's a pretty simple one. Those types
of plays that continued to happen in that practice. I was, Okay, now we're starting to not only can you see conceptually what they're trying to get done, but now they're executing it.
And I think it goes back to something that Juju said yesterday actually, which was that they're at the point of training camp now where they're repeating plays, they're they're no longer installing, and I think that's where where the lights switched on for the offense was when they stopped getting bogged down by installing new plays and started trying to master the ones that they already know. And now we see what we see.
Did they get to that point last year? I don't know that they did.
I don't know, And but it makes me want to give Bill O'Brien a hug because he said he literally just he saved it. Like he we're on that step. I don't want to get too ahead of myself, but I think the biggest thing with with what you see from Bill O'Brien is he makes it so easy on everybody. Yeah, and for guys, they're in positions where they can win
on their routes. And for the quarterback, you see the leverage, like you see the passing lane start to get created early in the route and that's like so beneficial to the quarterback because now you're not holding the.
Ball right, especially with this offensive line right. And that's you said. He makes it easy for everybody. And the guy that really takes the brunt of it is Mac Jones because like you said, there's a lot of reads of levere and coverages and but that's why you invest the first round pick and a guy like Mac Jones because yeah, he has some deficiencies he talked about the arm strength, but he's going to be able to get to the line, recognize the defense's call and then adjust
the offense accordingly to take it. There's no defense that can cover everything. It just doesn't exist. This is at its base what football comes down to. The defense is going to try to the offense is going to try to do something. The defense is going to try to take away something. If the defense guesses right and takes away with the offense is trying to do, the defense
wins if the offense catches the defense off guard. So when you can essentially go into a play with multiple playans on offense, it makes it that much easier to counter whatever the defense is doing. And people are probably sitting at home and saying, why doesn't every team do that? You need really smart players to be able to do that, because there's players that.
You needed coaches that can teach it, and I think and that's part of it. I think that's where it got caught up last year was that the coaches were trying to teach themselves what they were installing, and they were trying to figure it out on the fly. So when the players had questions and the players had things to work out and things bad habits that were starting to form and things of that nature, it was too late, right, Like they were too far gone at that point, the
spacing and the timing of these routes. And we talked how much did we talk about spacing issues last year? You know, guys being crowded, guys running into each other at times. You don't see any of that in these practices now. And we're not even getting into and we can a little bit. We aren't even getting into like the schematic bells and whistles that O'Brien is putting on the offense. We're just talking about like simple football right
at this point in time. And the other play that really got me excited was the touchdown that Mac threw to Juju yesterday down inside the red zone because we got a question about this from.
Just the one where he was running the inline went up and got it. No, this is the one, yeah, the back of the end zone.
It's ever so I think it's actually Patty and Aguam actually emailed us about the the little side sessions that they've been doing with during special teams periods. Mac and Bill O'Brien go over to the other field and bring like Juju and Parker and Bourne and Henry and like the big receivers with them. This is something that's been going on in New England since Brady was here. Brady would have like his little circle of trust. Yeah, the
side session. Yeah, so this isn't new. It's not like a well, so it's.
Different because Zappi and McSorley will go over for those as well. In the past it was just Brady, right, So it's not But it's not a new phenomena to football. It's my point. That was the question, that was Patty's question. It's not a new phenomenon.
But the biggest thing was is that when they were in that that was little side sessions, they were working two and three man route combinations on the goal line, and they were practicing against air. But they were practicing those things and then they come yesterday at the end of practice and they bring it to eleven on elevee and they've noticed that the two defenders were going to banjo or switch basically like a pick and roll in basketball where you switch it instead of staying with your guy.
And they recognized that pre snap. But that was the call that the defense made. And this is part of the part of training camp that I think is important to mention as well as just it's eight practices in the offense knows the defense, the defense knows the offense, and this is why we need to wait until joint
practices happened to get really excited. But the MAC makes a check at the line of scrimmage because he recognizes that they're they're going to inside out the receivers and they ended up flooding one of the defenders and the guy, I think it was Jalen Mills is kind of just lost in no man's land. And that was a play that they took from that side session that they've been working on like all week long. They took it to the game, to the practice field, to the game field
for now and it translated. And to see the progress that they've made in the red zone. When the first couple of day it was horrible, it was yeah, it was a little it was ugly. It looked like last year at times. Honestly, they're holding the ball, nobody open, things like that, And now all of a sudden, you start to see them making plays in the red zone and scoring in the red zone and that's really encouraging too. So they're getting better at the things that they're emphasizing
and that they're working on. So, needless to say, that's a lot of inflating the tires for the offense. But I think it's all legitimate. I think the one thing that we have to continue to caveat and continue to be concerned about, to me is the offensive line. Just where I wanted to go next. The biggest thing with the offensive line, I should also mention is that you can't hit the quarterback right now? Yeah, so how is all of this gonna look offensively when mac Jones is on his butt?
Well, so there's there's kind of two sides to that. Yes, mac Jones is gonna have to be good, good under pressure. And there's been times this camp. You had that play in the red zone on Monday.
Tom Andre the the blitz.
Yeah yeah, yeah, so he read the blitz, checked it through right into the blitz.
Yeah.
Now, we talked about this earlier. They're doing a lot of quick hit stuff that's gonna help, you know, the offensive line doesn't come into play there. Yeah a ton, So there's that, but it is a question now I it's gonna be better. Like you said, they have two of their five starters right now on the field, Yeah, Mike, when Winner's gonna come back. It sounds like cole strange issue isn't serious. He's going to come back. Trent Brown
is healthy by all indications. They're just managing his workloads, so he'll be back and then they'll figure out what they do it.
Right.
Tackle, but that is the one and it's scary because that's the one thing you can't see in training camp right is the offensive line.
And what I can see is that I hate training camp sacks because like, who actually knows the quarterback and slip a tackle the quarterback and step up in the pocket. It's really difficult to tell, especially without being able to review the practice tape if it would have really been a sack or not. But there's guys in the back we can all see it. There's guys in the backfield. And that's going to be the big question is when it's live, live, not just padded practice and training camp
live with the quarterback in a red jersey. But when it's live, live, is it's still going to look as good? Now this sort of I want to get into some of the individual players, but this also sort of brings in Bill O'Brien again. A lot of the window dressing. A lot of the things that they're trying to do, I think is mainly being put in because it's good stuff, but it's also because they know that their offensive line
might be a problem. So you're seeing a lot of jet motion, you're seeing a lot of backfield actions, you're seeing RPO, you're seeing play action. You're seeing empty which is just to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands as quickly as possible by spreading the field. And all these types of things are things that offensive good offensive coordinators do when they know that they might have some issues along on the offensive line.
And this is something we talked about going back to the spring. I forget if it was this show or another show I was on. Somebody called in and said, you know, do they believe in their tackles? You know, are they maybe higher on their tackles than everybody else's. I don't think it's it's as much that as it is they're high on Bill O'Brien and they're high on Adrien Clem to kind of coach this group up. I'm high on a And then it came around it I think
all from all the linemen that we've talked to. There's been some really positive reviews about CLEM, and I can see that they're fitting it properly. Like, I don't know if they're gonna be able to block it when it's you know, the Eagles front in week one or whatever, but the hats are in the right place.
Hey.
Look, I'll say this, some of the younger guys. Antonio Maffi's looked good. He wont to rap against Christian Barmore today in one on ones, which I think is an incredition.
As the pads came on and Mafi started to look a lot better.
Yeah, which obviously that's that's expected. So you're seeing the progress with some younger guys. I think in like they're gonna be able to hype some of these younger guys up and get these younger guys going. But they don't really have any younger tackles except for maybe Andrew Duber, who we saw very briefly on Monday when.
Everybody was hurting.
Yeah, it's gonna be Conor McDermott, Riley, Reef, Calvin Anderson if and when he comes back.
I'm not what's going on there.
So I hate, I hate to go to this but you know when Bill's asked about it the other day and he talked about it because it's non football illness, not non football injury, and Bill didn't sound super bullish on him coming back soon. I you know, offensive tackle, young guy, NFI mystery. I go right to Antonio Garcia, right, got really sick blood clought has long lost like sixty pounds.
He's out of football for a couple of years. When that's a worst case scenario, I don't know that it's there with Anderson, but it's.
Like, that's tough, That's what it is. I feel terrible Bill, and I do too.
But Bill sounding as I don't want to say pessimistic, but he sounded like he legitimately didn't know. I'm sure he knows what's wrong with Anderson, but he sound like he didn't know legitimate timeline, and just again it being that illness not injury thing, those that that can lead
to some some scary situations. So I hope for the best for Calvin Anderson, obviously, but I'm starting to get to the point where I'm like, I don't because when camp opened and we were talking about the tax, like, oh, well, you know, Trent's gonna be back in Calvin Anderson will be back, and that's a guy they're probably counting on. Yeah, I'm kind of going away from that a little bit and seeing I wonder if they're gonna have to kind of plan for not having them.
Yeah, because not to pick on anybody, but like Riley Reef has been a little rough.
It's been like he actually had probably his best day today. He's on one against josh Ucha look good.
He's been good in what's I don't know for for what it's worth, I guess he's been better in drills than he has been in team right, So he's been solid in one on ones for the most part, and he's been really good in that kickout edge setting drill that they've been doing that He's been really good in that. But the issue is with with really the mainly the edge setting drill, but also both kind of drills. Like you're in a phone booth, you're not truly out on
an island in either situation, especially edge setting one. So when he's able to just keep his feet under him and not have to move too much side to side, it's fine, but he's a tackle. He's not playing guard.
Right when the guy has to come right at him, right, the guy has to come at him, And that makes sense, Like he's a strong guy.
But the one guy I've seen give him fits is josh Ucha, who got him again today.
But even I mean there were there were a couple of days early in practice where and don't get me wrong, uh Jelani Tava is having a really good camp. But yeah, he's not a guy you expect to run around people. He's usually a guy that runs through people, which we've seen him too, but he's going around Riley Reef.
Yeah, it's it hasn't been pretty for Riley Reef when he is asked to move his feet, which when you play tackle in the NFL is kind of an important thing to be able to do. So that's concerning. I think this is all but locked up for Connor McDermott at this point and right tackle. I've liked what I've seen and I liked the film last year from Connor McDermott. In the run game, he's a really good run blocker. Really, it's probably exaggeration. He's a solid run block. It's it's
the better half of his game. Pass protection wise, I think he has a lot of the same issues that will that most tall tackles have where bend in ability to go down and get guys and get hands on guys that like an like an j type and you're gonna have hasan reddick coming off your right side in week one. Those types of guys are are difficult for six foot eight tackles. It's the problem that Nates Older had his entire career. Can you sit down in the chair and catch those types of guys that are the
smaller finesse pass rushers. Kean White went right around him in one on ones the other day with the little outside inside and he's not even that small, correct. So Connor McDermott's biggest issue is going to be leverage in the past game. Can he move his feet, sink, get
his hands on people. And I say sink, I mean like sink at the hips and the knees and get down in your in your in your stance and be able to square up guys because he's not somebody that consistently gets to his landmark and consistently is able to do that, And that's gonna be something that they're gonna have to protect against. But he's been okay last year and he's been okay in camp, but not they're not gonna have any difference makers at the tackle spot. At
right tackle, No, Trent is a whole different story. If Trent wants it and his head screwed on right and he's in shape and he's and he's engaged, then Trent can be a difference maker. The right side is gonna be hold onto your pants, like, let's just survive.
Yeah, A lot of the weeks it's can you get seventeen games of starting caliber play out of the combination of Reef and McDermott and maybe Anderson and maybe Stubart.
That's what the question I would it stinks that stuper or not super Anderson is dealing with what he's dealing. Yeah, I was.
Of all the tackles, I was the most excited to see him.
Me too, because he's got the athletic profile, and he's got some really good film last year in Spurts at Denver, and he's got really, really good He's the best athlete out of the group that's not even close, even a better athlete than Trent. So that's that was something I was really looking forward to seeing because they've ran some plays, you know, pin poll toss that type of stuff to
trying to get to the outside. And they cannot run outside the tackles right now because their tackles aren't fast enough to make the blocks. So that's gonna be something that they're going to have to coach around as well. Like they they've ran a lot of inside zone. Maybe it's duo, maybe it's inside zone. It's hard to tell live, but they've ran some downhill stuff. But they haven't really been pulling a lot of guards.
Well, I mean, they haven't had guards to pull, you know, it's not And this is the other thing I wanted to ask you, because I'm kind of trying to answer the question myself. Do you think they've seen enough at this point? Then when that when Mike, when winn who comes back, they'd consider playing him at right tackle. And when I say seen enough, I need both in terms of what the right tackles have done, but also what a Tony o'maffi has done, because he would move in as the starting right guard.
Probably right, I still think they roll with McDermott for now. I think they try to see I think McDermott's done enough to not run away with the job, but secure that he could probably handle the job. I guess I'm trying to put this as lightly as I possibly can, because I'm not trying to say that Conor McDermott is Trent Williams or anything like that. So I think that he's done enough that you can at least try it out to start the year with McDermott at right tackle.
But Mafi Maffy plays a really patriot like guard. You know, he's a hard nosed guard. He's a really good run blocker and passed per today. He caught a jumper and like threw the guy to the ground, which is kind of cool. And he's just he's physical. He's he's a stout. He's he's a cinder block, you know, and and and you can tell by the body the body type too.
He's just he's just a wide body. And he's basically as advertised, like everything that we talked about with him at the Shrine Bowl and then in the draft, he's come as advertised so far in camp. But he's not going to be a fleet of foot guy. You're not going to ask him to get out on screens or a poll or move a whole lot but if you have him just coming off the ball and hitting some people, but he's gonna be fine. And I think that that's possible that they look at that. But I still think
McDermott's gonna gonna be the guy. I would love to see Anderson hopefully by the time campus is done, just to see what it looks like. But I maybe this is just my priors, but I've kind of I'm kind of out on Riley Reef. I've been out on Riley Reeves since since I watched him last year after they signed him. I think he's a fine swing like, I think he's a serviceable third tackle and can play in a pinch, But I don't necessarily want to count on Riley Reef for seventeen games.
Look, I don't even know that it's prior's I think coming in we said he's an older guy. He's thirty four. He showed some some decline last year. Yeah, where is his game at now? And we're kind of see where his game's at. It looks like he's lost another step, which happens to guys at thirty four. And yeah, he was a really good player back in the day, but that was eight years ago.
Yeah, all right, let's take some of these calls. It's eight five to five PATS five hundred web radio at Patriots dot Com. And then I want to get to the receivers. I'm sure some of these calls might bring us to the receivers hot button topic, but let's start with Jeff and Mayne. Jeff, thanks for waiting. What's going on?
Hey guys? How you doing? So a few things. One is anytime I drive by the ground round, Now I can't help but.
Think of this wit where is wait? Where are you that there's a ground round? I thought they all call they closed the one by by need them.
There's one in Bangor, Maine. It's like ten minutes.
Oh that's good to know.
SOMETI you're gonna drive all the way to Bangor.
I have friends that live in Maine, so I go visit them. Sometimes you're gonna go to trivia there used to be trip I know. I go up to Maine to play golf sometimes, so if I'm in the area, it's good to know.
So in terms of Dalvin Cook, I haven't been able to call the last couple of weeks, and I know this ship is mostly sailed, but I know that, you know, at least from my recollection, people always talked about his game being you know, he's this fast running back who just runs through gashes in the defense and is a home run hitter. And the whole time people were talking about him, I always thought that, you know, like, if we signed Dalvin coach Pierre Strong is basically going to
get zero offensive snaps. And then in terms of the o line City So according to his college coach, by the way, it is pronounced so sow as a joke that the offensive line coach said, I haven't heard much about him in camp, but you know, with him and Stubor, you know, if Reed and McDermott are only slightly better than them, what it makes sense for you guys to play so or Stubor Because obviously it's not ideal to
not have one of your best tackles out there. But if you're going to have subpart tackle play, would you rather just have a young guy who's ceiling we maybe haven't seen yet, and you know, rather than these veterans who, like you guys talk about, don't have great foot speed or great adeality. Necessarily, Yeah, I'll pop off the calls. You guys can discuss it. Thanks and Alex if you ever come up here, uh enjoy good to know.
Thanks Jeff, thanks for the call shout out ground Round. But the biggest we'll have to tell it. Did we tell the full story about the ground I think you're going to and then we didn't? Okay, whenever, this was like a month. If we have time at the end, we can tell the story, but real quick.
When Roddy Harrison came for his free agent visit, Bill took him to the ground Round.
Yeah, like I think I think mister Krafft was there too.
Now like twenty years later, they're going to moo in the seaport.
By the ground Round by Needham like where I grew up.
Okay, but hey yeah, ground Round undefeated Rodney Harrison, great Pete move.
I don't know, Harris great Patriot Hall of Fame. That's right move.
We'll see what happens with Ezekiel Elliott, but not proven like the ground Round is. I mean, he hasn't signed yet exactly. But to the Dovin Cook question, I I I think the Patriots right now and I think this is part of the work load management going on with Rimandre Stevenson too. I think they really want to give as many reps as possible to the second year running backs. These guys didn't play a whole lot last year, and I think they want to see what they have with them.
That's the position nowadays. The position nowadays is not signing Dalvin Cook at twenty seven years old. It's drafting Isaiah Pacheco in the seventh round and turning him into a player. Right, That's what the league is gravitating towards. We know what the running back market is and all you're drafting and replacing at that position every three to four years. That's the goal for every team at this point, unless you
have a truly special back, which is rare nowadays. So I think they want to see what they have with Kevin Harrison Pierre Strong. If we get to cut down day around that time when those that other roster movement happens, trades happen, holes present themselves. If we get to that time and those two guys are not really giving them
what they need, showing them enough to trust them. Once the season rolls around, I think the Patriots will get more aggressive with whichever one of these free agent running backs they like, whether it's cook Zeke Leonard Fournette, whoever is their guy, and of course money is always a factor.
When I say their guy, they'll make that move. I believe, let's call it September first, if we've gotten through the entire preseason in camp and the joint practices and all that, and Kevin Harris and Pierre Strong just aren't ready for the bright lights.
I agree with your theory. I don't think they wait that long. I think you're looking at after the Green Bay game.
They'll have a week at joint.
Practices, a preseason game, you know, two weeks of fully padded practice here. You probably want to get that guy a little bit of lead time to learn the playbook. So I don't know that it's after cutdown day. I'm looking at like mid August. But same thing. I think that there's an element of look. They clearly recognize they need a back. They worked out another running back today, Evan. If you can tell me which USFL team he played for here, I'll be very import no idea. Birmingham's the
two time champion Birmingham Stallions. That was. I don't know if it's CJ. Marrable or c J. Morble, but fourth leading rusher in the USFL. He worked out here.
Today, so like.
Yet another running back they've had for workout.
Is my point.
They clearly recognize they need another running back, but I do think there is an element of, like you said, they want Pierre Strong and Kevin Harris out there and getting these reps both as a learning experience and as an evaluation experience. And then I think again, you know, you'll see him in joint practices and that'll be big
against the Packers. And then that's when, unless they're blown away by those two against Green Bay, they'll go back to the phones and again, whether it's Cook, whether it's Elliott, whether it's Fournette. I think it's gonna be Elliott, Yeah, if it is one of the guys, and they'll call that guy in and start getting that guy ready for the regular season.
Yeah.
And then especially the other wild card here too, sorry, the other wild card here too is what happens with Toy Montgomery, because he is that fourth running back.
And he did make an appearance, not in pads are participating, but him and Cole Strange onto the field towards the end of practice today. They were in jerseys.
So I think hold strange than his helmet.
I think it was signaling that they were off on the conditioning field doing some sort of rehab conditioning. So hopefully that's a good sign for Time Montgomery. But we've gone over the Time Montgomery thing. I think at this point you can't count on having Time Montgomery stay healthy. As much as I think it's he's shown some flashes and really shown some fun things that you can do with him as a player, I just think it's unrealistic
to count on him to the city. So question, I think this is a really good question because unfortunately or whatever where we are. Where we are, they don't really have a whole lot of high upside talent at tackle in terms of young tackles. Obviously Trent is high upside, but in his own way, they don't have a whole lot of young tackle to talent. Now, So and Stuba are kind of there are only two guys, and from what I've seen from both of them, they've had moments,
but it is extremely inconsistent. Like I write down, oh like Prealty a good rep for Andrews Duber, next time up he gets blown up, right, So it's and.
That's and that's being a young player like that comes in and.
This is his first taste of NFL padded practice because he didn't practice at all. Right, well he did. I think he did towards the end last year, but it was behind closed doors. I think.
No, No, he was never I don't think he was ever out there.
He was never out there. I don't believe. So, Okay, well we'll double check. It's that.
It's that, and Bill said it this week. He's all, he's like an extra draft pick. He did that with Cameron mcgroon.
Oh yeah, that really worked out. So that that's the main thing is just if there's any I'm kind of over. I've gotten over the receiver thing because our Lord and Savior Bill O'Brien is here and he's he's making it work with what they have. So I've gotten over DeAndre Hopkins. I cried about it enough. I'm done there. Their handling of the tackling position is bugging me because it didn't have to be this way. You didn't have to make it so hard on yourselves. You could have paid decent
money to a tackle in free agency. I'm not talking about giving mcglinchy a top of the market deal.
Just go out to me, like Caitlin McGary got like right, eleven.
Million dollars right right. So the guy, the guy that they were reportedly in on was Andre Dillard. Remember this, Oh yeah, so they were reportedly in on Andre Dillard who signed with the Titans. I think for a three year, twenty seven million dollar contract. Very reasonable, very reasonable money. So looking back on it, and I understand this is not really the point right now, but I just.
This is why I said before they have the team they have, we're moving on because I knew we're gonna get bogged down.
He humored me for a second.
By the they are also know McGary three years thirty four and a half.
So Andre Dillard got three years twenty seven million from the Titans. And Andre Dillard is a He's not Isaiah Win, but he was not He did not pan out in Philadelphia as a first.
Round He ended up getting moved to guard to one point.
So he wasn't good. But he's been I shouldn't say it wasn't good. He just didn't work out as a first round pick. But he's got a lot of skill, especially in pass protection, and he's got first round athletic talent, and he's their kind of player's a scheme fit. Yeah, so all those things considered, you could have your your bet on a high upside guy instead of it being
Calvin Anderson. At two and a half million dollars, you could have paid nine or ten million dollars for Andre Dillard, and then you still could have gotten Riley Reef for you know whatever. You still could have gotten Calvin Anderson for whatever, and he could have just had both. But instead here we are and you don't have a solid solution.
Andre Dillard would have been a guy that a because of his contract most importantly, I suppose, but just in general, he would have been penned in as the starting tackle. I don't know which side, because you know, he's more of a left tackle. Maybe they ended up moving Trent backed out to right at that point, but regardless right he would have been in one of the tackle spots pend In I'm not gonna say sharpeed, but Pendin so one of those erasable point we we but we wouldn't
have been worrying as much about it. Yeah, I mean, I think Dillard in his own right would have been an interesting player to follow because the ups and downs in his career but we'd be saying, all right, you know at that point, Okay, Conor McDermott is a good plan, b right, And it's not like Calvin Anderson. They so could have signed Calvin Anderson for two and a half million dollars guaranteed, So instead of paying eight million dollars guaranteed for tackle help, you would have paid twelve Like
was that really that difficult? No? And so here we are. And then the other thing is with the draft, would we've done over and over again? So I'm not gonna go down the whole road with the draft of how they wad to the fourth round to draft a guard to convert them to tackle. To now have us here with City So. So I'm not convinced that City So is going to be able to help them this year. I think that it's an interesting developmental talent, it's a project player, but I don't think he's gonna help him
this year. And I'm concerned about the tackles that that ends that ran. But would it have killed you? Would it have killed you to give Andre Dillard to beat the Titans offer to hone?
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know me, you're not wrong, But where it's late or no, it's not even like it's early August. They have they have the like not to go to Bill, but the guys that are here are the guys that are here at this point.
Don't do that, I know, but like it, don't let them off the hook like that.
It's not supposed to be with the show is talking about the guys who you know could.
Have been here. I know. Don't let him off the hook.
Like although I do have a take on on Taekwon thorn in that.
Yeah, we're going to get into that. In the second Mark from Connecticut, he wants to talk to me, Uh, oh, do you have a do you have an axe? To grime? Mark? What's up?
Evan?
What's going on?
Brother?
Not much? How you doing?
Yeah?
Not bad?
So I was at a practice on Friday, Monday and Tuesday nice and on Monday I was hoping to see you but never saw you. But guess who came over and talked to me? After I had a one on one with Tabario Pop Douglas.
Who's that Benvolan?
Oh?
No, Benlan comes over to me and goes, do you know him? And I said no, but I do. Now I got to really chat with him for a little bit and got his autograph and everything, and I told him that he's the next Troy Brown Splash, Julian Edelman splash, Deon Branch Slash.
West Welco the kids.
The kid has it. He's got the quickness, he's got the quick step. I mean, I watched him three days in practice and he's killing it. I'll do with the ones and the twos.
Yeah, that's absolutely a good point. And thanks for the call. Mark. Next time you're at camp, shoot me a DM on Twitter and we'll meet up and we'll make sure we get a hello. And and and you don't have to talk to Ben Volan again in camp. Not yet.
Nobody's asked Ben who listens to our show, He's called not ben Volan. Ben who listens to our show is called into our show. I met him today. Oh really very nice. Yeah, yeah, shut up, Ben. And when I did the thing with Sarage before camp, I think I did this last week. I just shaking some hands, walking back, okay, okay.
Flexing flex and oh yeah, so many fans uh. Anyways, so good segue to receivers. So thanks for that, Mark. Do you want to start with the good or the bad.
Uh, the bad's probably gonna be quicker because I feel like it's mostly good.
Honestly, it's been better. It's been better. It's encouraging, you know what.
Let's start with the good, because for me, the bad's really just one guy.
Tomario Douglas might be a thing. He might be a thing. So I'm not ready to like go all Wes Welker, Dion Branch like guys that put up a thousand yards and won super Bowls, like both besides West. Sorry Wes, sorry but he almost did. But you know what I'm saying, Like, I'm not ready to go there. Wes Welker has the most receiving guards ever in a single season by a Patriot. Let's let's pump the brakes. But he he looks the part. I can't. He looks good.
I can't figure out a way to like formulate this without doing a whole ten minute thing. But we've worked together enough that you'll understand the same people have watched us for a long time. We'll understand when I ask you this is to Mario Douglas a guy or is he a dude?
I think he's a guy for now. He might be a dude, but I need to see it. I want to see it in joints against some other teams who don't know the Patriots playbook like this defense does. I think the most exciting thing about Toamorio Douglass and Matt mentioned it today. Apparently he's an legend in Jacksonville, which I did not know. Probably would have should have done that for the story that I wrote about him after
the draft. Probably should have made that. Something tells me you'll get a chance to write about him a few more times.
Yeah.
So here's the exciting thing about to Mario Douglas. He is the only player on this team that can create his own separation. He is the only guy. He's the only guy that can run a route, stick his foot in the ground and separate. And that is a breath of fresh air because we really haven't seen that too much and it's encouraging. And I think the other thing that makes it exciting is we know how Bill O'Brien operates.
We know how much he can emphasize quickness, especially inside the formation, and you can envision scenarios where to Mario Douglas is your inside slot receiver and he's coming off the line of scrimmage and he's got a linebacker in front of him and he puts a little juke on him and all of a sudden, here we're off and running.
And that's really where I see his role in this offense is in that number two and number three spot on the inside of the formation, running the juke routes, running the whip routes, running a crossers, you know, little things underneath the defense, things like that. And let's see what he can do with the ball in his hands, because the fight. We haven't seen true live tackling with him today and he guys are with owned it and he owned it. So he's explosive player. Absolutely.
I'm at the point where I like I have to There's not many things I can say to myself at this point to not get my hopes up. You know, early on it was, well they're not in pads yet. Then they's just one padded practice and like you said, the live tackling and this and that, but like he just continues to check box after box after box. He has chemistry with Mac Jones, which is big. And I know you're not as high on Kaishan booty as maybe
some other people covering camp. But like he's had an okay couple of days here, He's had a fine couple of days here. But I think we can both agree on this, Pop And in theory, Kayshawn Booty's ceiling is higher just based on.
What we saw at LSU. Well, that's not sure I believe that anymore.
All right, Well, but I was gonna say this twenty twenty three, and we have to kind of mix the good and the bad right now for this take. Who is an easier path to playing time Pop? Because they need a speed guy on this offense, and the speed
guy's not showing up. And if that's true, if like literally he's been limited the last two days, Taekwon Thornton, If to Mario Douglas can keep this up it outside of the draft pick, it's going to get really hard to justify not having to Mario Douglas in the lineup over Taekwon Thornton, because.
This is Juwan Williams, J. C. Jackson all over it a little bit. Literally, this happens with this team all the time, and I don't we don't Nikhil Harry Jacobe Myers, right,
Oh yeah, better example, I'm trying to think of other ones. Now, I I we don't cover other teams, so I don't know if this happens as often in other teams, but it just feels like it happens all the time here where the sixth round pick ends up being the right pick and the second round pick ends up being a bus at the end of the day, I guess it doesn't necessarily matter because you you got the guys on the team on the roster, and the good guy wins right Like I don't, I guess it in theory, this
is a stupid thing to be I'm not mad about it, because in theory would be a stupid thing to be mad about. But I think the biggest thing is with Douglas is you look at their other receivers and Parker juju Kendrick Bourne. I think Kendrick Bourne has a little bit more juice and speed than those other two. But we're talking about guys that are six foot one plus. We're talking about longer striders, and we're not exactly talking
about burners guys that have real speed. And when you start to think about it, and then you add the tight ends like Hunter, Henry and Gasiki into that lineup, as well. It's a lot of the same kind of guy. It's a lot of the same type of guy that wins in the same type of way, that wins in the same type of area of the field. Pop Douglas is a totally different thing from all those other guys.
So if I'm building an eleven personnel package right now for the Patriots, three wide receiver, one tight end, one running back, if I'm building that eleven personnel package out he brings a complimentary skill set to the table to Juju and DeVante Parker, who they're not going to take off the field.
They remember we were talking about that battle of between Thornton in Bourne for that for that zerole. And look, I think Bourne's had a good camp. I do, and he's gonna play a role this year. But him with Juju and Parker, it's not a fast offense. You do need an element of speed in there. And I would say Kayshawn Booties put himself, not Keshanuddy. I would say tomorrow Douglas has put himself in that conversation with Born and Thornton for that role.
I agree. And you also see what they're doing out there with him on like jet sweeps and end a rounds and things like that.
Too, all those things we said when they drafted him. Do you remember my big take when they draft him? You can now run the Marcus Jones offense without having to take up too much of Marcus Jones time. We are seeing those concepts as with a very similar guy.
As lazy as the comparison is, because it's right there for you. What a lot of fans that email us and call us and say, why don't we move Marcus Jones to offense full time? Pop Douglas is what you think you would? Right? Do it? You drafted?
You drafted Marcus Jones again, basically is what happened. And it's funny too because when you're trying to come up with the comp form, because that's what we do. It's training camp. I have a ridiculous player comp later on, Oh god, and training camp is part of it. You're not going to guess what it is. It's it involves special teams. It's hard to come up with a comp for Jamorrio Douglas. Like, was it were you the one I was doing this with?
Yeah? Somebody were like, you know, well, I think the closest Patriot comp is probably Deon Branch. But Deon Branch was bigger.
Deon Branch was bigger, like you brought up West. But wes Welker ran a four six five faster I know, but he wes Welker was not this fast.
He was just as quick. You know, I think the best player comp. So I looked this up last night to be right about it. So Deon was five nine was five nine that's what he was listed at.
He he measured it at. The cop could have sworn he was sixty nine inches. I could have sworn he was six foot sixty nine inches. Pop does was five eight one two that's.
When well, he's like five seven and three quarters. I don't, I don't h was de On that fast?
Yeah, okay, maybe that's the Deon was like mid for I think the cop. I know people like the comps. Marcus Jones, that to me is the comp.
It's Marcus Jones. Marcus Jones is a full time like was a good full time receiver.
Well.
I asked to Mario Douglas about this back at the Shrine Bowl, and this is months before he was drafted by the Patriots, and I maybe it's because of the Patriots was coaching staff. I don't know if he knew I was from New England, whatever, but I said, like, are there any NFL players you model your game after? And he he meant the two guys he mentioned. He mentioned Julian Edelman, he watched lot Julian Edelman, and the
other guy he said was Marcus Jones. He says, I, since I was in high school, I watched Marcus Jones as a returner because and I'm paraphrasing here, but the way that Marcus Jones carries the ball and the way I carry the ball are very similar. So this isn't us just kind of sitting here grasping its straws to Mario Douglas believes he's a comparable player to Marcus Jones.
It's kind of crazy that So obviously the reason why, uh, to Mario Douglas ended up at Liberty is because he's five foot seven, right, And that's the obvious reason. But based off of what Mac told us today, which in Mac mentioned that he was like a seven on seven legend. Yeah, which makes sense, right, but he said that he was kind of a legend in Jacksonville, where Mac Jones grew up. He's an NFL athlete, like you're in a low four
to four in the forty yard dash. He played well at the Shrine Bowl against other NFL players, He's played well in training camp against NFL players. I just it's funny how this happens sometimes, that these guys end up at Liberty, right, Just you would think that Alabama Lsu Georgia, like somebody would have snagged him, right, Florida, he's down in Jacksonville. Where's Miami at? Like, why isn't he playing
in Miami? Right? You know those types of things, And I think what you have to do and what we try to do here on this show is forget that he was a sixth round pick, forget that he went to Liberty, and just look at what you're seeing and the way that I look at it now, I think
he has a legitimate chance. And I'm not going to put expectations in terms of production on tomorrow Douglas because I don't know yet or too soon for that, but I think he has a legitimate chance to be a third wide receiver in this offen this year, behind Parker and Juju, Which is crazy to think that I'm saying, like I didn't think I would be saying that, Yeah, I didn't. I think it's legitimate.
I think I don't know, like true, I think him and Bourne will still rotate, Yeah, because.
I think it'll be game planned, will be a situation r Mack.
Mack likes Bourne. I think Bill O'Brien really likes Kendrick Bourne. And I mean Kenrick catch the day to day back corner of the end zone, little toe tap for mac Jones.
Six hours later? What do you mean it was? It was late. It's kind of late. What do you mean it was late? It was like almost a sack. Oh, the corner round at the I thought you were talking about the one from Bailey Zappy my bad. No, Oh, that was a sack. I mean he's a nice cash for sack.
No, the one from from mac Jones in the red zone he put over Christian Zalez.
Yeah.
Like, I think Bourne's gonna play too, But are they and ks sick He's gonna factor in here. They're gonna run twelve, But are they like fifty five forty five percent guys something like that, you know, forty five thirty five.
Yeah, but I'm not even gonna playing a team with the slow secondary. I want to see Pop Douglas on the field. That's I got that for you.
I gotta I gotta comp for you. And what you said just made me think of this. Yeah, you get a team that there's a slow slot corner out there? Can he be Isam mackenzie against the Patriots isa McKenzie, Not against everybody else, Isaiah McKenzie.
It's not like that. It's not bad.
And it's like we've seen him against Miles Bryant, given Miles Bryant trouble.
So isaamh McKenzie is like a world class sprinter speed, but I think that it's not a terrible comp Let's move on from Pop Douglas though, what about Taiequa? Like, how worried are we? I don't even know if worrieds the right word. It's just like at this point, he missed a lot of time last year with the with the with the collarbone injury. Yeah, he's missing more time this year. He missed some time in the spring with whatever the hamstring or whatever, the soft tissue. I think
is how rees reported it. I just I've seen this movie before. When you fall behind the when you fall behind in this offense, then it's really hard to jump on the moving train. It just difficult. And if we talk about how I was ready to wash away the rookie year for all the guys that were here last year because of the offense in the situation. But Taekwon struggled as a rookie and now he's struggling to stay healthier or whatever you want to call it in his
second season. I just I don't know the air is out from yeah, you know me, I was. I was as jazzed up as anybody to see Taekwon in year two, especially in a real.
Life You're ready after that first OTA practice to declare him the real deal.
So I don't know. I don't know what it's. It's a it's a crappy situation.
I determine I used yesterday. I wasn't even thinking when I used this. I was like, mid question, just came to mind. Danger zone, Like he's in a I don't think he's lost his spot yet. You know, if he comes back tomorrow and starts making plays, it's all right.
He had a rough week. He's back.
He's in good ta We know we can have a good camp because he's having a very good camp last year until he got hurt. Yeah, but if he can't get on the field and he can't produce in the red zone when he's on the field and they have they The other thing was we thought Taekwon Thornton was gonna have this long leash because well, they need the speed, right, they're kind of desperate, they need the speed. They're gonna
have to put him out there. Oh hold on, maybe not, maybe not because to Mario Douglas showed up and showed up big time. And now we get back to I think Evan we had a really interesting conversation about this, probably like a month month and a half ago. Mac likes throwing to to Mario Douglas. He does if Mac is going to be better with toa Mario Douglas, what are you putting Taekwon Thornton on the field for?
So I do think that to an extent, they are different in some respects because Taekwon's Taekwon. People that I get excited about him, like me call him tall Reek, right, like Taekwon's tall. Taikwon six foot one, six foot two. He is a burner. He's an over the top you know, everybody say catch up, you know, take the top off.
The defense. That's what I'm looking for, vertical route runner, whereas I think Tomorrow Douglas is gonna live on the quick hitters underneath and then like occasional crossing cross a route, crossing routes at different levels of the defense. I don't think that Tomorrow Douglas is lining up on the outside and running a go route, I guess is my point. So I think in some respects they're a little bit
different in how they win. And it would be nice if if Taekwon was actually good to have two guys that can actually run out there for once, but at the same time, he didn't do anything when he was out there, then he gets hurt. I was almost more worried about this when he was practicing, because they were out there in shorts and a T shirt and he
was doing nothing right. And if you if a four to eight guy is in shorts and a T shirt and he can't separate, that's concerning like that, that's where those types of guys should pop off, especially in year two when you're comfortable in the NFL. And and you know, he said all these things at the podium last week. I think it was earlier this week that the game was slowing down for him, And I had no disrespect to Taekwon, but I was thinking, like, is it like
it doesn't look like it is? It looks it looks like you're you're still struggling out there. So it's concerting with Taekwon because you know the investment. You know that they drafted him in the second round. We've seen this movie before with the Patriots with second round picks. We've seen this movie before with high picks at that position. And I don't want We are not going to do the second guests on this show. We're not going to do the George Pickens, Alec Pierce. Can I give a take? Can I?
And this might be a hot take, and I know we don't really do hot takes on the show. And maybe this gets me called a homer, but I stand by it. I going back. I'm okay that they didn't take George Pickens. I'm very okay with that. This is a guy that it's all go ahead. This is a guy that had two significant knee injuries, had some person had some character concerns. Yeah, for a team that has swung and missed at wide receiver as much as they have a guy that has that much variance is that
much high risk? Even if he was high reward. The Steelers churn out wide receivers, that's what they do. George Pickens was.
Always going to be a success there here.
I don't know. Now, could they have made better picks than Thornton?
Yes?
The second guess I make is could you have gone Christian Watson in the first round and then gotten a guard later on? Or could you have You know, they reaped up to fifty to get Thornton? Could they have moved up a little higher to get John Metchi?
And I know, I know you did.
Yeah, And I know, like Mechi. Yet now we later found out he had cancer. We didn't, you didn't. You can only go with the information he had at the time, right, So I would I would throw sky Moore and sky Mores it. But I know he didn't have a good, big first year in Kansas City. But he's a speed receiver that I think is a better route runner than Yeah, he's a little more of a slot guy, and I think they wanted a boundary guy, so that one again I understand, But like I I don't hold it against
them that they didn't pick Pickens. I understand why they didn't do it.
It burned him.
It was the wrong like it didn't work out.
But nobody wants to put any context into the Jorge picks.
They made the right decision at the time and not taking Pickens, they could have picked somebody better maybe, but that's not If you want to second guess the Patriots on the draft, you have plenty of opportunities to do so over the last few years. I don't think that's one that you need to go to to do it.
I would also say with George Pickens, like, show me a highlight of George Pickens at Steelers camp. That's not a crazy contested catch.
So have you noticed it's all been against Joey Porter Junior.
No, I didn't notice that. But like, as we sit here and talk about how useless DeVante Parker is because all he does is win jump balls, and then George Pickens wins a jump a bunch of jump balls and one on ones at Steelers camp, and everybody's like, oh, he should have drafted that guy, right, It's like he's just a Vante Parker but younger, Like, can we just relax that that's this is a whole separate thing. But like wide receiver dB one on ones I have no
time for. Like, if you're an NFL wide receiver and you're you're a legitimate pro receiver, you should win a one on one against the dB like eighty five percent of the time. You have no need for any of that.
How about I love How about the tight ends in the safeties, Nope? How about Christian Zaliz against Devonte Parker, Nope?
I see. I think those are interesting.
Because you're interesting because you can add a disadvantage and you see how he does add a disapanting.
I think they're interesting for two reasons. One, you see the alphas come out right, you see the demeanor and the competitiveness. And the second thing I would say is that you see how guys move without having to be clogged up by the other twenty one guys on the field, right, So you it's a snapshot of just this player and just that player. And that helps people like us that are trying to watch practice. It helps us be able to isolate guys and not have to worry about missing
everything else. I think O line D line one on ones are really really good things to watch.
See, this is why we were a good team when we work together. I know because you would watch that and I would watch that. Matt Dolliff watches.
The O line. The O line, D line are really translatable, like that's that's football. That's you can see a lot about how guys move their feet, how they reposition their hands, refit their hands, uh, how they change directions, Like you can see a ton of things about uh, how they handle power right like that all that type of stuff in O line, D line one on ones running back or wide receiver, cornerback one on ones to me is is like it's it's it's it's Madden. It's like video game stuff, like.
They actually put it in Maden this year. It's going to be in the new mates.
Because corners have help, right, Like so it's unrealistic. I'm sorry, we don't. We don't need to go through this, but.
Like what like but now I gotta get you on Madden so we can run.
Tell me when a corner isn't going to have safety help to play off of well, if in the system, never if if they're doing that the the ten on ten thing, Hey you're step Geelmore tie lad, but that's one guy. But don't we want.
But that's what So I'm not saying every rep holds weight, But I said Christians against Devontae Parker. If he's winning those, that's notable, okay. But the other thing is is like we're getting really bogged down here by this. But the other thing is yesterday, I actually they were done that on the O line D lines. I looked over to the wild last one between Gonzalez and Parker.
How many moves is Parker you're gonna throw on him before? For it's okay? But if I was the coach, I would have blown the whistle and been like, Davante, you gotta you gotta make a move, Okay, you don't have eight seconds to throw the ball, And then everybody puts it down as a win for DeVante Parker like that's gonna win.
Well, okay, that's on them for interpreting that wrong. I can't come in and look at that and say Christian Gonzalez, even though Parker eventually got the catch after five mooves moves at a very impressive rep against Devantae Parker. I can't come in and say, all right, so that's.
What you know. Some people don't do that. But that's why people listen to this show. That's true. They want that. Let's go through these calls, uh call screens lighting up to now. I love that. Patty's an agu on Patty. We we read your email, so don't ask the same question.
I was gonna ask you guys.
That's okay. Do you have another question?
Yeah?
You know what, I'll throw this one out at you guys. So let's just say to Mario, does this thing throughout you know, throughout camping, through the preseason and Kaishan Boute or Booty or however the hell.
You know?
He continues to build up on the momentum that he displayed yesterday. And I don't know what he did today, but can you envision them to keep them both, these guys on the on the final fifty three?
Yeah? I can. And thanks for the call, Patty, and thanks for the email. As always, I wanted to talk about Booty, I I'm just forgot. So I'm glad we we we got this in here. I could see a world where they keep both because I don't know what the heck is going on with Taekwon Thorin, so maybe it's a situation where Taekwon is ird. You know this, the whole post roster cut down, like all that minutia.
We don't have to get bogged down by that. But I think that there's a world where they keep Well, they're not going to keep six guys, but I think that there's a world keep.
They might have to initially because I don't know that you're getting either of those guys through waivers. Yeah, so unless you're saying they're going to put Taekwon on IR before the fifty three the off, so I guess that's true.
At that point, you're done. They could cut somebody like one of the freaking Special Teams guys and then cut him initially, tell him to stick around. They put Taekwon on IR after the f and we're we don't know how serious Taekwon's injury is. Trying to say that. I'm not saying that Taekwon's definitely going to IR or anything like that, but that's a possibility that they could carry six initially and then make room for it to be five eventually. Right post cutdown with Booty, I don't want
to I don't want to rag on him. I think he's had a couple of good practices. I think it's a fun name that gets impressions and gets clicks for us when we talk about Booty and Douglas, Like when you write about those two guys, it goes off. That's that's the job. I get it. But I don't think that I've seen anything from Booty that's been super impressive. He's a he's an explosive linear athlete, like he had. He runs a pretty good go ball right like he runs well up the field. I've seen that. I think
he's stiff. I don't think that he's got a whole lot of wiggle. I think he's a little bit robotic or stiff in the hips and that that's something that I've noticed. But I just haven't been as impressed with him as as Douglas. But Douglas has done doing it longer than Yeah, I think, but a couple of practices.
Booty at a slow start. That doesn't help. I think you're understelling. He said he's made some impressive or he's made some impressive plays on the ball, Like I think his body control is really good.
I agree.
Now, some of the reason I say implus impressive plays on the ball and not him and not catches is there's been times where he's done a great job to get himself in position to make a catch and then didn't make the catch. Well, so that that's but that was a knock on him in college. Was it's definitely something he's wearing. But I think the last couple of days, I don't think he's a drop the last three or four days no, So so it's his body.
His body control and the ability to judge to the ball is better than that.
As crazy as this sounds, and this is kind of the way camp goes. If to Mario Douglas was just in the background, I think we would be really excited about Kashawan Boody right now. But the other rookie got going quicker and is fast and gives them a skill
set they need. Whereas if Kayshawan Boody, you know, turns out to be what we think he would be at as best as a rookie, So then they have Kendrick Born again, which isn't bad, but Kendrick Bourney, I don't know what what does Booty give them that they don't already have.
Especially like I when I look at his body type. Yeah, not talking about him as a player, necessarily, but like him and Juju look a lot alike, like they're both thicker, So.
I think he's somewhere. I guess I should say between like Kendrick Bourne. I think he's more explosive than Juju, but he's not quite as explosive as Born.
I think he's kind of like like ideally he would be like young, younger Juju, right, like the knee injuries.
Yeah, So that that's where I'm like, One, he started later than Booty, or started later than Douglas. In two, he doesn't add something they don't already have. That doesn't mean that there's not value in keeping him. There certainly is, but it's which is Kashaun Booty. It's like very air. I don't know why I keep doing that To Mario Douglas. First of three podcasts is going to be an adventure.
To Mario Douglas, it's like I can see immediately, like we talked about before, this guy's gonna play He's gonna play this role.
This is what they need him to do. Boom.
It's like, all right, he's done this role in bill O Bryant's offense. Whereas Kashaun Booty, even if he's good.
Okay, then what right? Right?
So all right, they have another good receist, but he's still probably gonna be a backup.
Like I will reiterate again, DeVante Parker and Juju are not coming off the field right.
Well, with Juju you have to worry about injuries, but Parker too, I guess.
Exactly like Kaishan Boody at best is depth in case one of those guys.
To go back to the question, and maybe this ties into that, you know, can they keep all six? Kaishun Booty is not your typical sixth round pick. This is a guy that was an elite prospect coming out of high school less than a year ago, was projected to be the number one receiver in the draft, a draft that included Jackson Smith and jigbins A Flowers.
Yeah, and then had a.
Bad year at LSU and for some reason decided to run the combine with a broken ankle, which I don't understand why he did that, but.
All the power to do him for doing agent.
So like if he starts showing flashes, yeah, he's not getting a practice squad, somebody's gonna be like, all right, no, they unlocked it, they found it, They found the guy he was supposed to be after his freshman year at LSU, Like, you're not getting him to the practice squad, so you'll see it. At that point, it's either do you essentially let him go or do you do you have to
keep six? Yeah, and I think that they may look at it and say, you know, Parker and Juju or injury prone Kendrick Bourns in the last year of his deal. We don't know what Taekwon is gonna be. Yeah, we need this long term potential at wide receiver. We can't let him go.
If I had to do a fifty three man roster projection, I had him so hard. I didn't really think about it, like necessarily because I'm not planning on doing one until after the first preseason game. But I'm doing one Saturday. I guess I could kind of see it now that now that Patty laid it out, or it was Patty
right laid it out. It just I think that there is a world where they carry six initially and then they're able to figure out the numbers post cutdown, whether it's iring somebody bringing back a special teams guy, you know that they Rolly Webb or whatever. Who has actually made some play.
Okay, can I give you my rolliy Web take It's kind of weird, right like hang on, Rally, Web gets open.
We can play.
Web gets open a lot. Now it's it's against the thirteen defense. There are other guys who are not getting open because the thirteen a little stutter and go and the and like blue by, somebody gets open. He's made contested catches, he's shown some good body control. Now he's converted college safety.
And he's doing it all where at number forty four.
Shout out Mark, shout out Mark Edwards, which makes it even I'm not gonna sit here and say, Rally Webb is going to solve all their problems at wide receiver. But that's not saying that as an emergence like if they get really banged up. We just talked about how a lot of these guys Taekwon Parker Juju the injuries playing wide receiver as an emergency wide receiver like break class, like as your seventh eighth wide receiver, you could do worse than Rolly Webb.
Okay, he ate fine, he gets open. It's not worth Webb gets open. Does he not get open? Evan he gets open Joey in Texas. What's going on? Joey, Joey, Joey.
Go was shocked by that tape. I want you to say, Rolly Webb gets.
Onry comeback and we'll get you on the air.
You said it before I went on that rant. You just hate it because I said it.
It just was ridiculous. All right, wrestles in Boston? What's that? Russell?
Hey, how's it going on?
It's going well? Thanks for calling.
I'm a he's Fran of the podcast. I have one quick question for you guys. There's a few free agents out there. I know that Nico Elliott's one of them. So do you see the pages signing these last moments during training camp leading up to the preseason and eventually this first game with the season.
Yeah, it's a good question. They do have an open roster spy right now theoretically. And thanks for the call, Russell. So I I think we're both on the same page with the running backs. I think we both lean Zeke. It just feels like the best combination of they're not going to pay Dvin Cook right like they're not going to pay his quote.
Can I tell you my theory on Dalvin Cook by like, yeah, tinfoil hat Theoryvin Cook he already signed with the Jets. They're just waiting to announce it on the season premiere of Hard Knocks.
Oh my god. If they did, that's what it is, then they're not anywhere very stupid, That's what it is. They are not going them.
He called them a super team, so I now get to compare them to the twenty eleven Eagles.
Okay, but if that's what happens, they're not. They're I am selling all my stock in the Jets. It's like, because I think I kind of believe in the Jets. I do. I do a little bit too.
It it's like oddly quiet after he pretty much said he was going to be a Jet.
Yeah, so I lean towards Zeke because I think it's I I tweeted this and everybody at tacking what about Dalvin Cook. It's a it's about the value for me. I'm not saying that Zeke is a better player than Dalvin Cook. Nobody is saying that Zeke is a better player than Dalvin Cook. But they're not gonna pay Dalvin Cook eight million dollars a year when they have Ramondre Stevenson on the team. It's a waste of money. It
doesn't make any sense. So they're gonna pay Zeke half that a quarter or that maybe even to come in here and be a veteran backup to Remandre, which is what they really need. I feel like these running backs are out there because the market is devalued the position and people are lost their minds and forgotten that Ramondre Stevenson is still a damn good back on the Patriots. He's better than Dalvin Cook at this stage potentially.
So if they're closed, it's negligible, yeah, or if cooks better, it's negligent, right, So why.
You know whatever? I know, it's just money, but it just doesn't that's not how they're gonna.
I I did a poll like when Cook first got whatever, it was like a month ago, month and a half ago, and I did you know running back A and Andre's numbers running back beat Cooks numbers from last year included the age ninety something percent of people took Romondra.
Yeah. Yeah, so I I feel the same way about that. I think Zeke makes the most sense for role contract. What they need that guy ideally to do I think it's gonna piss off a lot of fantasy football owners because they he might be the goal line back and steal all over Mandre's touchdowns.
Well, no, we've been getting asked for months.
Who should I hit cup with Ramandre Stevenson? Who should I hit?
Right?
Draft?
Be a very easy one. Somebody in my buddies lead. He already sends me the draft. I don't care if he sends me the draft. Somebody actually drafted Zeke in like the tenth round.
Oh there you go? Uh? Any interested in Jonah Williams? Jonah Yeah, Joan Williams Bengals. Oh tackle? I don't know the Alabama guy? I know?
I I well, because they worked out Remember they worked out Damian Williams. The running backs like Darryl Henderson, Daryl Henderson.
Yeah, I don't know. I was thinking that Damian Wims. It's like a camp everybody in theory. Yes.
I actually don't think the Bengals are gonna trade him.
He's he's apparently second team reps.
I know he is, but the Bengals don't need picks. The Bengals are trying Joe Burrow's on his rookie deal. The Bengals need to win a Super Bowl right now, and having an extra starting tackle, Like, if you lose one of your tackles, you're still in great shape. If I'm the Bengals and I'm trading him, I'm trading him for a player. I'm trading for a player that's gonna help me win immediately. And the Patriots can't exactly afford to part waves with those So I just I like.
I don't know. I mean, I have a great example off the top of.
If I'm the Bengals, I'm called like in the Patriots call, I'm asking about Josh who cham asking about Kyle Dugar. I'm asking out guys in the last year their contracts, right. But if I'm the Bengals, I want to what does it pick do for me?
I want a player? Yeah, I don't know, there might be a spot the Patriots have a player that can help the Bengals. Like I wanted to segue to defense. What if what if White can play and Lawrence Guy's expendable?
You get if you can get Joan Williams for Lawrence Guy. Yeah, sign me up.
Yeah, I don't think that's gonna right there. I don't know Okay, I would I would like Jonah Williams. I would like that trade really quickly. Just who's the year standout on defense? We talked to all offense, but we gotta rap.
Christian Zalz has been really good. All the rookies I think have been really good. Yeah, I'll give you kind of a sleeper one honestly.
Oh you know not. Actually, Mac Wilson's been great, and.
I know I had him off my direction.
He's been excellent.
The guy to me that like is getting really interesting to watch, and we saw him today. It was as big as day Isaiah Bolden, the seventh round pick Jackson. And you know Jack Jones obviously had a weird day to day, left practice for a significant time. And we know that, like Jack Jones, availability is a real question. And so people are gonna roll their eyes when I say, well, the fourth boundary corner battle, the fourth poundry corner, what are you talking about?
We've done this before. I know they've been snaps and the Jason mccordy.
They want to rotate, right, So who's going to be the guy behind Christian Zalz and Jonathan Jones? Right now, it looks like it's Isaiah Bolden. He got to go against DeVante Parker in elevens and had a really good pass per against him, not just like gotten the wave an aeron throw, but Parker had the ball in his hands and he punched it in. So Isaiah Bolden.
He's got good ball skills, really.
Good ball skill, and he's six ' three. So he brings some more size to that position, which they need. Is an elite athlete.
So that Isaiah Bolden is to this is he's like Juwan Williams, right, like when they drafted the guy in the seventh round that actually is the Jowan Williams that they wanted. So he would be j C. Jackson in this. Yeah.
Well, but I don't know that christians Aalz is bad. No, he's not bad, that's true, but it's you know, they found a guy like they I think they might have found a guy in Yeah, and Isaiah Bolden. I've been really impressed with him. I mean that, you know, when we get in a joint practice, that's gonna be big for him. But great start, Okay, Kyle Duggar, Yeah, we're at the point. I said this on PU call. His agent put a contract on the table. And let's get
this thing done. Because this is exactly I know, I've seen this before. This is exactly what's gonna happen. They're gonna end up having a franchise tag him if they don't pay him first.
Because he's gonna reset the market. He's gonna get a massive contract if he hits unrestricted free agency next year, a massive contract. And you have two choices. Either get out in front of it and you extend him now, and maybe you get him at a little bit more of a team friendly price because you're giving him the money up front, or you roll the dice and you tag him in the offseason like that. Those are really your only options with him. Yeah, because he's too good
to let him just walk for nothing. I want to hear about the compicks, and he's gonna be way too expensive and they probably won't end up paying him, and all they'll have to show for it is one hundred and tenth pick in the draft, which, like, please, they need good players. They don't need one hundred ten pick in the draft.
And to the people who say, well, they drafted Marte Mapu maybe to replace him, why not play him together? Right, it becomes the mystery box in the boat and then what happens when you have to pay Marte Mapu? Are you just gonna keep right every point? You gotta you gotta invest in something.
You gotta start building a core, okay, really really quickly. Uh, just one thing that people need to know about the special lists go.
So I remember I said I have that weird player comp for you. Yeah, Bryce Baringer, Yeah.
Tim Wakefield.
What the the way the ball comes off his foot? The way the ball comes off his foot is very hard for the returners to get a read on. And I asked him out yesterday. He said, he can't control it. You control it a little bit, yeah, because I never like it's Jake Bailey is really good?
Is it wrapped up? Is Ryland and Bearinger? To me, I think it feels like we're getting towards wrapped up territory. We're really close.
You know the in stadium is the big special teams one. Yeah, but yeah, we're we're really close to having two rookies.
Ryland has a has a leg has two legs. I think, well, thank you. Ryland has some more distance on his kicks than I thought.
I'll look mad out without I could hear it through the class.
God, it's day they Ryland has more of a leg than than I thought. He's got a good leg. I think he's gonna be I think he's gonna be able to make him plus fifty. I do. Yeah, Yeah, he'll he'll flirt with that and and Behinger is he's got he's got a boomer. Well, the big thing he's got a big leg.
But the big thing is the returners are having trouble fielding the ball, and that creates muff punts, and it creates you know, guys are maybe more inclined to fair catch it, and that that's big. That's field position and muff punts is potentially turned.
There's one part of the podcast that Bill likes. It was that thirty seconds of Alex talking about how the knuckleball off Bryce Barreinger's giving away season and then it's tough to catch and like this is relevant.
Really quick before we wrap up, there's a question here in the chat on YouTube that somebody wants me to ask you. Can you answer it real quick?
Yeah? Does Rowley web get open on that note. I'm not even lying. It's in the chat. Answer the question. It's in the chat. I'm not lying. It's in here. The Revs are playing tonight. Answer the question. Answer the question against the third team defense. Yes, all right, that's all I wanted. On that note, We're gonna do the
pod next Wednesday before the preseason game. So we'll talk about the camp practices Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and then we'll preview the game on Thursday to kind of give you guys an idea of who you should be looking for and things like that. And so we'll be at this time on Wednesday, so don't look for us on Thursday, like our usual time will be on Wednesday because of the preseason game, and we're almost there. Preseason football starts tonight.
Hall of Fame Fame game Patriots open preseason. We're going to have a Hall of Fame game soon, are we. I'd imagine when Brady gets in. Oh yeah, that'd be fun. I'll I'll be able to go to that'd be cool. All right. Anyways, signing off, Alex Bars, Matt behind the Glass, and Evan Lazar here for you. Will see you next Wednesday. I almost said Thursday, Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday, y.
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