This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan Lazar and Alex bar from Lazarre.
Hello, everybody nailed it, Joined as always by our Bark. Here is Evan Lazar and Alex Bars. I'm doing edge defenders. I know you don't like. You don't like edge a position.
It's not a real position.
It is a real posit.
It's not it's a real No, it's a defensive end outside linebacker. We use edge because coming into the draft there are guys that in one system might play and in another system might play outside linebacker. So, right, but that's going into the draft, and we don't know what system they're in, so we can't classify them as one or the other. One. We're talking about the Patriots. We're talking about a system. We know where they're going to
be playing. All right, you even just say, all right, you even alright, go ahead, paid just said you have Kean White is a defensive end?
I do?
It's not?
Is that edge? No, So you're just saying outside linebackers, you're calling them.
Egg Yeah, that's our show in a nutshell, Alex like that that right there is our show. If you want like a snippet of what you're gonna get when you turn on Patriots Catch twenty two that thirty second clip. Is it like that? That's it right there? Pretty much? Is it us arguing over what is and isn't an edge? And if that's a real position, is it's perfect? So Evan Lazar and Alex Bart with you for the next
hour or so here on Patriots Catch twenty two. We got a lot of talk about I wish it was about other things, like we were supposed to be out at practice today and talking about real football on this show. But we're gonna be talking about what's going on here the news with the Patriots losing two ota practices. There's since been a little bit more information coming out about exactly why they were stripped to too practices, and we're
gonna touch on it. We're not you know, it's interesting because when this when the when they canceled practice yesterday, there's been a little bit of a roller coaster as when they canceled practice yesterday, it felt like they were canceling practice to quite frankly stick it to us, like
you're not invited anymore, guys. Sorry. Right then, we got over that this morning with Pro Football talk reporting that it was because of a special teams meeting, a fifteen minute special teams meeting, where the league felt like it came across as mandatory even though things this time of year are supposed to be voluntary. Right, That's that's basically the crux of it, which to which just an hour or so go on Patriots unfiltered. I was pissed about.
I was, this is ridiculous, like either everything is voluntary or everything's mandatory, but nothing this time of year is mandatory. It's all voluntary. Whether you go out to practice, whether you go out in the way, you know, go work out in the weight room, whether you're here at the facility at all right now is voluntary. So how can we have gray areas? But what isn't It isn't perceived as voluntary when the whole off season program as an entirety is voluntary. So that piece of it bugged me.
There's been a little bit more come out now from Greg Badard that it seemed like the what he had heard is that the Patriots were here for maybe a little bit longer than the allotted amount of time to hold this special teams meeting. So if that is the truth, and that is the case. And I'm not questioning Greg's supporting, but this is there's a lot of behind the scenes details with these types of things.
There's a lot of interpretation.
Yeah, if that's the case, then I think that you know, that's a violation. You know, there's you're only supposed to be here for four hours per day. If you're here for longer than that, then you're here for longer than that that and that's a violation. But I think where I come from ef this you.
Can so the way I interpreted it is like you said, these sessions are not the sessions are optional, right, just being here at this time as optional. But I think there's something within, like for those who are here, you can't just come in and do what you want to do, right, If you're gonna be you're gonna get part of the problem. You're part of the program program. Yeah, So the problem
is was it mandatory? Was the meeting meeting mandatory for those in attendance to get what I'm saying, yes, Like so I think that's where it comes up versus I think because I'm I tried reading through all this last night. It's very dense. I sent it to my brother who's
a lawyer. He hasn't texted me back. But for basically, the way I look at it is like, if you can be here for longer than four hours, but the team can't give you more than four hours to if those four hours hit and you're like, I'm gonna go get a lift in, you can go get a lift in. So it kind of reads like, Hey, the end of the day, we're gonna all meet with Joe Judge and
kind of talk about special team stuff. But the way in which it was listed on the schedule wasn't a kind of hey, if you're still around to come by. It was more of a this is part of the day today.
Yeah, yeah, And that I can sort of understand. I still think and look when when when his name, Joe Judge's name is included in this report from Bedard And it's a sticking point right now for Patriots fans. We we both realize that right that that just him in general right now is not He's not the most popular guy on the block. Let me let me put it to you that way. But that being said, I still think that the punishment's a little harsh, and I think the main thing is is that you can't have it
both ways. If you're the NFL, you can't hold these off season programs. Insist that they're voluntary, but all thirty two teams approach it the same way. And I said this this earlier. If you're if you're Stefan Diggs in Buffalo, does Stefon Diggs need to come to ot As. No, Stefan Digs ain't getting cut. Stefan Diggs is not getting traded. Stefan Diggs is not in jepfer. Are you losing his job?
He's not fighting for a roster spot. It's just like when Brady would wouldn't come and we'd go do his own thing in the off season and then come back from mandatory mini camp. Those guys, for better or worse, are are different for the ninetieth guy on the roster right, For for Anthony Firksker, they just signed like an hour ago. He's got to be here, right. If you want to
make the team, you're gonna be here. And I just think that it's it's such a wonky thing of it's clearly wink wink, nod nod mandatory for guys that aren't Tom Brady's.
In sorry, is well, okay, it's not option, it's not mandatory, but it's also not mandatory we keep you on the roster right past camp. You want a little more details on this, Yeah, we're tricking in. So Mike Grd quote tweeted Greg's report said, can confirm this and also note that per sources, the players were aware they were being asked to stay longer than allowed. Did they help alert
the NFLPA. I don't have the answer to that as of now, but basically, the players knew sitting in that meeting, Hey this is a violation, is what Mike is saying, and still went. So that's a really interesting dynamic. And I don't I'm kind of talking through this. I'm not blaming anybody, but did the players say, hey, this is not right, we're not supposed to be here.
Did they go?
Did they go and then say something like That's a really interesting dynamic that the players knew that it was a violation. So, and it goes back to your point with Joe Judge. And I thought it was interesting in Greg's report too that he has that, you know, the league in the league documents which he has that Joe Judge referred to as a special teams coach, and that kind of formalizes something a lot of us that expected. So it is interesting that this whole thing's kind of centering around him.
Not great, not great, and it's not it's not even just a judge because I don't want to make him like a target for people, because there's already enough of a target for people.
Well, that's why I'm saying, like the fact that he ends up in the middle of this is kind of like, yeah, not great.
Yeah, And I think what the biggest thing that we were talking about off air, the most important thing, because when this originally happened, I full hand up on this. I was pissed because we couldn't go to practice today that I'm gonna admit that, like I wanted to go. I was excited. You know what, we we nerd out about this kind of stuff. We get to go watch
them play some semblance of real football. We get to talk to you know, the listeners, everybody, and you get to talk to you guys about it, Like we like doing this. This is what we what we're in the job for, is what we're so I was mad about that, but that aside, I think what's more important is that they just lost four hours of practice. They just lost four hours of practice in the spring. It's clear. Look, I just said that Tom Brady and Stefon Diggs. Don't
you know Sewan Diggs. That's not news breaks is retired. Diggs isn't that OTAs. The Bills aren't gonna lose the AFC Championship game because the fond Diggs didn't go to OTAs right like that, that's not going to be the case. But the bottom line is is that you have a new offensive coordinator, you're changing some things. It sounds like if Joe Judges is involved on special teams that he's calling meetings, it sounds like you're changing some things on
special teams as well. And the bottom line is is that you just lost four hours of practice time and that in itself is something to be critical about because you you need every ounce of practice that you could possibly get. And at this time yesterday, when it just felt like they were just canceling, just to cancel, it was like, well, what they think they're ready? Like they think they're you know, they don't need these practices. Now that this comes out, it adds another layer to it.
But certainly it's still in the same realm of let's button it up here, guys, right, Like, let's let's get a hold of these things a little bit more. Because this stuff for a team that's trying to rebuild or retool or reinvigorate, whatever word you want to use, this
stuff can matter. It can matter. And I think that that as a Patriot fan, I would be a little bit disappointed in the team that they allowed this to happen, that they are losing two practices that now I think the biggest thing and with this Joe Judge report coming out, the biggest fear that I have is that this sounds
a lot like last year. Yeah, this sounds a lot like last year with the situation, the setup on offense, and the players either not being on the same page as the coaches, the players not agreeing with the philosophies or the methods of the coaches. And this is same book, different chapter. And I think that in order for this team to get where we want this team to go,
they need to be clean slate from last year. Just like Bill O'Brien said, right, you need to completely wipe the slate, cleaning of any of that type of thing going on. So it's that part of it I think is maybe even more important than the four hours of practice time, is that this is the type of stuff
that was happening in last year. And now how do these players that were you know, I don't think you have to worry about like Matthew Slater, right, but what do you think Chris Board's thinking, Well, you know, what do you think you know a mere speed in Isaiah Bolden and you know the guys that they drafted at the end of the draft of special teams guys. It just you don't need this right now. You need to
get everybody pulling the rope in the same direction. And this makes it feel a lot like last year that everybody's there's a chasm, right, there's a little bit of a sticking point there. So that that's your that's that's where we're at right now with the Patriots and and the OTAs well.
I've just said the other thing too. You mentioned you know, guys on the same page and might you already had it there? The players knew that it was past the alloted time, and you know, did they or are they the ones who went to the NFLPA or No, we don't know two of the Patriots for NFLPA reps or Joe Cardon and Cody Davis special teamers. So that's an interesting wrinkle. And one more thing on the practice thing
too that you were talking about. I don't I don't know how to sound this out sounding over le dramatic, So just no, I don't. There's not a better way to phrase this. But there are ota practices. I get it. They're non padded and air all that doesn't this like sort of put pressure on the players now for Wednesday, because if they come out and they don't look great, and I know it's ot. They'm not saying if like you know, oh, they're struggling, like if the defense is
making plays, the defense is making place. But I'm saying if they come out and it looks like early training camp last year, where guys are running the wrong routes, or guys are running into each other, or they can't get the playoff in time and things like that, it's gonna be they're gonna get a lot of questions about do you guys feel like you could have used those extra practices? Do you feel like you guys missed that
practic this time? When I say there's pressure on this as an OTAM talking relative compared to a normal attell, but it's which has zero stakes. But there is something there now.
It just this is our first look in at the team. So there was already gonna be intrigue about how things were going. Intrigued pressure, But I just mean like there's always gonna be stories coming out of that of you know, what was Bill O'Brien, like, what was Joe Judge doing? But now that gets ramped up. Right now, now, well that's the coaches right now, there's pressure on where are they at?
Right?
You know, what does it look like? Where are they at? What what's Joe Judge look like? And what sort of his dynamic like his interactions with players, Like if he's coaching, if he's a special teams coach, that means that he's hands on coaching, right, if he's leading meetings, he's hands on. So how do how are players responding to him? How how is this whole thing going? It's uh, it's another it's another sort of thing that they just don't need.
I think that's what his bottom line is is. It's not you're you're right, It's not the biggest deal in the world. It's spring practices. There's no reason to blow it out of proportion. But at the same time, it's just one of those things that you just don't need. You don't need to lose practices, you don't need it to be go this way and have it be because of these types of things. And you, if you're trying to turn this football team around, this is just not
something that you need right now. So it's just, uh, we'll see where it goes. Wednesday's gonna be interesting. That that's for sure. I mean it was already gonna be like somewhat interesting, but now forget about it. I mean, now it's really interesting now. And now we'll see what with all this, you know, all this kind of shakes out and special teams is still as much as they've turned over the personnel there. There was questions about Camra
Cord from a lot of people. I get emails and texts and the d ms about that all the time, Like, you know, okay, well they brought in Chris Board, they brought in this guy, but how they still have the same coat. So now Joe Judge sounds like he's maybe even more involved than we even thought, almost like a de facto assistant Special Teams Coordinator or something like that if he's leading meetings and things like that. So it's
gonna be fascinating. We're we are going to talk about what's going on or will be going on on the field at OTAs we both Alex and I both wrote OTA previews for the practice that was supposed to happen today that didn't. So we'll both have some thoughts on what we want to have our eye on and things like that. So we'll get to that as well. Get to your calls. Eight five to five PATS five hundred Web Radio at Patriots dot com is the email. Let's take a few calls and we'll get into some of
our or what we're watching or what what what? How did you phrase yours storylines?
To watch?
Storylines? To watch? What caught my eye whatever. We'll get to that in a second, but let's start with Sean and Vancouver.
What's up Sean, Hey, guys, how's going?
OK?
Well, I wanted to mention something that was on the previous show. We had a color who was a little discouraged about the Patriots upcoming season, and you know, saying that they're all there is is hopeful. We can't really
rely on that. But you know, Evan, you mentioned that older fans like myself, I'm going to be fifty seven November, we had terrible teams and we had this rebuilding thing, but you know what, in reality, we didn't because all the success prior to two thousand and one was just limited, like it didn't continue. You'd have to be a fan of the Cowboys or the Steelers, so something like that who had some success and then rebuilt and then had
more success later on. So for us, you know, we look back at the seventies with the team that was the first championship caliber team and got screwed by the rest in Oakland. And then in the eighties the great win in Miami finally won a game never won down there before. That team was was also a little bit of a surprise because it was a wildcard team that went to the Super Bowl got killed by the Bears,
but you know, that was the end of that. And then in the nineties, Parcels team was was what six and ten in in ninety five and then ninety six again they went to Superbowl, but Parcels was on his way out and it wasn't wasn't quite rebuilt from from before,
and then they went downhill. They they they had to rebuild something that wasn't even there, you know, it was it was a big surprise in two thousand and one, you know, because they were terrible in two thousand and Tom Brady had the magic from that Jets game and then the rest is history.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point, Sean. You know, I just was to fill you in on what we were talking about things for the call. Sean just I think that sometimes a lot of the frustrat and sort of
the impatience at times. And I hate to use that word because it has been a couple of years now, right, I don't think that's totally fair, but in general, I think we have never really been through this, right, Like, you know, you dropped off from the greatest run in NFL history and now you're a team that's back with the pack and just sort of another team in the NFL. And I do think that that's hard for fan bases.
And my point was, you know, being honest about myself as a as a fan of the team and now somebody that reports on the team, I've never seen them lose like I've never seen them have anything really but success. I mean, even like what I remember of the nineties, those teams weren't you know, weren't always great, but they weren't they weren't terrible either, and they certainly had, you know,
some some moments. And then really my first vivid football memories are of two thousand and one, and so all of a sudden, this team it just never loses, right, you know, you go twenty years like that, it gets to the point where it's hard to be down here. It's hard to just be another one of the crowd. And I think that that's sort of where the Patriots are at and their expectation that were set by the standard that they had with Brady. It's never gonna be
like that again. Like did you welcome to the real NFL? Right? Like this is sort of what it's like for everybody else.
Yeah, they didn't operate really the same way the other teams did.
They're one of thirty.
Two now, and that's just just just kind of what it looks like.
Yeah, all right, what's up, Patty? How you doing.
Up? Guys?
So?
Can I give you a quick brief history of my Patriots fandom and my thoughts on what happened with them losing practices? Sure, all right, So the year's nineteen ninety
and I'm in eighth grade. I wasn't really that big of a football fan, so and I remember Monday night games leading up to a Monday night game between the Giants and the forty nine ers, who I believe were both eleven and one at the time, and I'd spoken something about the game, and I'll never forget this kid, Walter Garcia said, hey, pat, I never hear you talk about football. Who's your team? And I said, well, I'm
from here, I'm a Patriots fan. And the whole class, like all the kid, even the girls dude back then, laughed at me. And it was that moment that I said, you know what I said in my head, I'm going to become the biggest Patriots fan. And really, who's laughing now? I mean, who cares about the last few years I was allowed to see six Super Bowl championships? You know, who cares if his Giants had a couple of a couple of them on mine? But what that's whatever, bro,
But that's my my breef standem history. And if I'm Robert Krapf this. Indeed, if this, if this whole the Shenanigans were due to Joe Judge and his machismo or his ego or whatever hell he want to call it, I'm going to Byllain saying, listen, after what happened last year and that now we're getting now we can't practice for two days. This guy's got to go. I'm sorry. That's that's just how I feel as a fan. And you know, if I was in the owner shoes, but
it's probably a good thing. I'm not the owner. That's all I.
Gott Thanks, Patty. Look, I've I'm always wary out of calling for people's jobs. I don't like doing that. But Patty having those feelings about Joe Judges, I can't blame him for it, right, I just I can't blame you. If you're looking at this and saying that it's not it's it's to that point for you. I think that's
a valid feeling to have. But I wonder it's funny because when we found out that Joe Judge was going to be involved on special teams, I think we all kind of, at least myself, I want to say we all speak for myself. We're kind of happy about that, right, like that's where he should be coaching. I mean, he's
a special teams guy, like that's that's his roots. But I think what with him, the issues that come up are when he oversteps, right, when he thinks that he is more than just an assistant coach on the staff and he becomes a little bit bigger than that, and that this is sort of along those lines.
Not gonna lie well, I mean it goes back to I remember this conversation we had when it was revealed that he was coming back. I guess if he's gonna be here special teams kind of helping out overseeing cam Accord in a more game planning role, that's the best spot for him if he has to be here. But that that was kind of my point is after everything that happened last year, does he still have to be here? And now here we are?
It is an interesting dynamic and clearly clearly Bill thinks highly of Joe Judge. Yeah, because Joe Judge has gotten a lot of strikes with Bill and so.
Look, I think he is a great special teams coach for everything here, like the special teams when he was the Special Teams cording his first thing here, Yeah, was probably as good as they've been as long as Brad Seeley. Yes, at least I'll admit I didn't follow special teams as closely back then.
I don't think anybody follows special teams closely as you do now.
Like he is really good at what he Joe Judge is really good at what that job is. Like, you can't deny that.
It'll be interesting to see now that we move forward. Because even though Patty, I can understand your your sentiment about Jojo, he's gonna he's gonna be here right, Like, I can't imagine that after everything that went on last year, like this being the final. Yeah, I don't know. I just can't see that well the other here. But what's interesting, you know, just quickly, what would be interesting is how is it run on the sideline come September?
Right?
Like?
Is he is he the coordinator? Like is he the one with the headset in the in the sheet and he's calling out, you know, calls to to the guys on the field. Is he the one in the middle of the huddle like you know, look, it's a special team's coordinator. We've I'll see what it looks like or is that still cam Accord and Joe Judge is just there to help from like like a lot of coaches say Monday through Saturday, right, and then on Sunday it's it's somebody else's gig. Like, is that the way it's
gonna go. It's gonna be interesting to see how involved he is. I guess it is a short way of saying it, but based off of this, it sounds like he's gonna be heavily involved, So we'll see.
Yeah, and the other question again we're getting into semantics here. Yeah, did they know the meeting was going like I'm saying the coaches whoever put on schedule?
Yep?
Did they know the meeting was going too long? It was like we're gonna try to get through it. Or was it just like a miscommunication they didn't realize? Right, Because that also sort of frames how how they react to it.
I think, yeah, that's fair a man, just another thing that they just didn't need. That's all I'm gonna keep repeating, is this, These these things are things that they've got, They've got a button up. They've got to find a way to clean this type of stuff up. All right, let's talk a little bit about OTAs and about the next couple weeks with spring practices. We still get two, so we're still gonna be out there for two. Then we get the three mandatory mini camp days, so things
are gonna heat up. There's a couple of things that I wrote it, but I wrote eight things, and I'll get to as many as we can, and you can get to yours. I think the biggest one, though, just starting off the top, is obviously seeing at least the basic or the foundation elements of Bill O'Brien's system, Right, what what is it gonna look like? I think there's been a lot of speculation on him, you know, certainly on this program, we've talked a ton about what it
might look like. But I think the general gist of what I imagine we're gonna see is mainly seventy five percent Bill O'Brien. Right, We're gonna see, you know, Houston early Patriots, Bill O'Brien, you know, twenty twenty eleven Bill O'Brien, and obviously a little bit of Alabama Bill O'Brien too. But maybe we also see a little bit of doing what worked and for Mac Jones in the offense, in
Max Rogie year. And now I know that that comes across as oh, well, you know what, bringing back a full back and under center, and and maybe that it's not that deep, right, maybe it doesn't go to formations and personnel groupings and go down in that path, But just in general, I think where they're aiming to attack the field, you know, I think what the big thing is with what happened last year, and they talked about it, you know, Matt Patrischa openly talked about how they wanted
to be a little bit more vertical, and they wanted to be a little bit more bombs away. And I think that they looked at Mac Jones at Alabama and saw that he had the touch and the ability to throw not necessarily a twenty five yard dart, but throw a touch deep ball, you know, throw a true deep ball pass. And I think that they wanted to get
a little bit more like that. But it certainly had more downs and ups, but it had it's up and downs, and I think the main thing was is that it was it was, it was inconsistent, it was it was just extremely volatile. So my question is more and less so about formations and personnel groupings because I think at the end of the day, Bill O'Brien's going to live in the groupings and the formations that he lives in. Right, it's gonna be eleven, it's gonna be twelve. I don't
think it's gonna be any twenty one. But the question is is do they get back to really trying to win between the numbers and within that fifteen to you know, five to fifteen yard range versus trying to push the ball down the field more like they were doing the
year before. And I think some of the personnel moves that they made in the offseason, mainly Juju but even Mi Kasiki to be a seam runner kind of point to the fact that they want to get back to that team that dices you up in the middle of the field.
Well, just big picture here. When you talk about Lebrian, let's rewind for a second. What were the two biggest stories at least I honestly don't remember what we talked about with the defense last year. Coming out of OTS you don't talk a lot about defense. Yeah, during OT is unpadded practices, you don't see ton. But although there is one defensive storyline, I want to get to. We'll
get into that in a second. The two biggest storylines last year were the new offensive system, right was look good, they're running zone They're running you know, zone block.
Concepts and that really carried over.
And the flat the fact they flipped the tackles that Isaiah When's on the right side, Trent Browns on the left side. Well you know here we are here later. Two of the biggest things I think we're looking for, and the third that we didn't have last year is how big of how much is this quarterback competition actually going to be a competition if at all?
Oh I have I have a take on it. I do too.
But besides that, what's the offensive system going to look like? And like you said, we might not know exactly, but we'll get an idea. Are they going back to power run, what kind of personality using and who's playing where at tackle? Because this isn't going to be your typical position battle. Trent Brown, Calvin Anderson, Riley Reef, all three of them
can play both left and right. Now there's strengths for some more one than the other, but it's not as simple as hey, there's there's two guys competing for one spot, or there's three guys competing for you know, the starter and the backup job. It's gonna be start one bench, one cut, one right. This is three guys essentially competing for four jobs starting left tackles, starting right tackle, backup
left tackle, backup, right tackle, right. And there might be overlap in there for sure, But it's this thing where it's not necessarily a direct you know, all right, well, this guy's gonna play here, this guy's gonna play here. There's different permutations of it. Yeah, you know, with Trent Brant, let's say it's Trent Brown on the left side rather the reef on the right side, or Trent Brown on the right side, Calvin Anderson on the left side.
Well then who what? So those are kind of the two.
Big things we're going into looking at this, and it's funny because it's kind of the big things we came away from last year's OTAs.
The other big thing that I think that we came away from last year's OTIA is that one keeps in perspective that it's OTAs right and two points to what I was talking about before about the stylistic decisions of the offense. The big picture philosophies of the offense. Remember who the star was on offense last year? No ta is Alex Yeah, Tray Nixon yea. And why was he the star? Because they were bombing and away to trade
Nixon down the field of No tas. So one, it's the Maurice Harris of it, all right, it's the fact that this actually means absolutely nothing. And in two, it's also just the fact that that was a philosophical shift right out of the gate. Right out of the gate, they wanted to be a bigger play offense, a more vertical offense, hunt chunk plays, things like that, And I really hope and wonder, but mostly hope that they're back to being more efficiency based this year. And I think
that's better for the quarterback as well. Let's talk about the quarterbacks. This is my big thing other than Bill O'Brien, and this is my big take about the entire spring of the summer. I have no time and you can call in an email in and disagree, because plenty of people already have about this. I have absolutely no time at all for your quarterback competition. I do not I did not want to see a quarterback competition. I want to waste time with the quarterback competition. I don't want
to hear it. I don't want to hear about how it pushes. Oh, it's gonna push Mac Jones. This is gonna get the best out it, you know, because they haven't tried pushing. You know what's gonna get the best out of Mac Jones? Getting him ready for the season. How about that? How about he's on his third coordinator in three years and the NFL is in another system. Again, it's certainly gonna have some overlap to his rookie year system.
I'm not gonna deny that. But in general, another system, another voice, another guy leading the charge, a guy that we think is gonna be good at the job. I'll, you know, I'll put that aside. All that. I've seen two quarterback competitions in my time on the beat already because of the situation that we're in. One of them was a legitimate competition. That was twenty twenty COVID year Cam Newton versus Jaredson Mcbrian Hoyn, which.
Cam Newton won by decidedly by default. He won that in a first round knockout.
He won it by default. But but with that being said they wasted. I would say there was no spring that year, right because of COVID. They wasted like the first ten days of training camp on a competition on rotating every oh everybody gets a turn, right, everybody gets a turn, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do that. I don't think the Cam Newton Patriots that roster was was.
In shambles, was beyond camp.
That was not a good team. But I still wonder to an extent if they had just came into camp knowing that Cam Newton was going to be the starting quarterback and didn't try to try to convince themselves that Jared Stidham at that stage or ever was a starting quarterback in this league. How much more creative, how much more could they have put in right in terms of the running elements is what I'm talking about.
How much even more than that, how much more comfortable would Cam have been with some of the receivers, because it was definitely a feeling out process early on, right, and.
He was our already behind the eight ball because of how short the off season and the training camp were.
I don't even think he didn't sign it until like July.
Yeah, right, so yeah, he was already wasn't a full camp. Yeah, and then they wasted the time trying to figure out all who's the starter when it was pretty clear the only guy that had any chance to start in the NFL that season for the Patriots is Cam Newton. So that's one. The other one that I witnessed was obviously Cam versus Mac, right, which wasn't really a quarterback competition again, because Cam would get four reps and then Mac would get twenty five straight.
Right, But yes, and no, Cam would get four reps, Mac would get twenty five straight. But Cam would get four reps with the starters and Mac would get twenty five with the backups. Yeah, it didn't shift till the end of the year. I don't mean to cut you off here, but.
It's also a waste of time, that's my point.
But here's the thing about that one. If you are somebody who thinks Mac's not the best option, right, they should go with Bailey's appy, they should go with Billie Cunningham and somebody somebody brought this up in the chat. It's you know, it's the best player plays No, but wait,
I'm just kidding. That's sort of what that twenty twenty one battle was Yeah, Mac, I don't think it was about so you said before, Right, they wasted time because they didn't know who their starter was going to be early on.
Yep.
I think what happened in twenty twenty one was they did know. I think they went into camp fully ready for Cam Newton to start that season and Mac Jones to begin the year on the bench, and Mac played so well they had no choice, okay but to say, all right, we have to now start giving to this kid a chance with the starters. So could that be the thing that happens. So here's the thing.
They're two different kinds. Yes, that, and that's sort of what I'm driving at too, right. I'm glad you kind of summed it up that way. Yeah, but I am leaving the door open for Vailey's appy. If Mac Jones has a rough camp, if Mac Jones has a rough start to the season, is where I'm really at with it. Like if the first month doesn't go well, yeah, and they're zero to four coming out of September, and it's just clear that this wasn't all just Matt Patricia being
Matt Patricia. This is also just Mac is maybe just not not the guy. Right then, I'm leaving that door open. But going into the season, I don't want to hear that the best player will play. I don't want to hear that. Oh well, we gotta you know, Mac, you got to push him. We got to see what it's no, no, be it be good teams don't do stuff like but here's but here's what I'm in line.
So again, the twenty twenty one was like a true when people think of quarterback competition, both guys going back and forth to the starters don't do that. Yeah, because, like you said, they need to get Mac ready. Yeah that Mac needs to be working with David Andrews and with Juju Smith Schuster and Hunter Henry and Mike Kasicki and that whole group. Yep, right, that's what he needs to be doing all the time. But at the same time,
down at Brookline, whatever you said. You said you want to leave the door open for Bailey's apps.
I want to leave the door open.
I'm gonna rephrase that.
I'm leaving the door open me too. I'm leaving the door open because from all the tea leaves, I have to write like I can't I can't ignore the fact that the head coach of the team didn't say his name for like six months in the offseason, right, So I can't leave it. I have to leave it open because it is a possibility.
Well, no, but there's a difference here. There's a difference between what we think they should do and what they will do. Honestly, even what I think they should do. And this is me is a mac Jones guy. I'm not leaving the door open for Bailey's appy, but I'll leave it unlocked if he can open it.
Like, this is the thing. Drill mac Jones with the starters.
Give mac Jones all the high impact reps, all that, but if on that second field, Bailey's appy looks so damn good that you can't help. But wonder what happens if we plug this guy in with the starters, if it gets to that point. I'm not opposed, but I don't think it's a true quarterback competition. Everything should be set up for mac Jones to be getting ready for the season. The only reason Bailey should come. Bailey's appy
should come into the conversations. If it becomes clear mac Jones maybe isn't the best option for the season because as of right now, everything we know, Mac Jones is the best option and it's not close, so just get him ready. I just that's what they should be focusing.
I just think that a lot of the time, with these these competitions and with the best players should have played mentality and and the back and forth and all that kind of stuff, what you end up doing is you end up not fully preparing either guy exactly, right.
But yeah, well it's that old saying when you have two quarterbacks, you know, on a quarterback right.
So, and what it also reminds me of is, you know, we've covered a lot of training camp practices at this point, and some joint practices too, and sometimes they've had joint practices. And I go back to like Carolina last year, Yeah, right where it was it was Donald, right, Donald and Baker and they had a quarterback competition. It was it was two former failed top five picks going head to
head and they had a quarterback competition. And they got into the season and it was Baker right off the top, I think, or I don't even remember, but either the bottom line is it didn't work out for either one of them. They both sucked, right, and maybe they just
both suck, like maybe they're just both bad players. Like I you know, that's I'm leaving that out there, but I am of the school thought that I believe that if they had fully prepared Baker Mayfield, they're fully prepared Sam Darnold and not wasted their time going back and forth, it would have been better. And this is why a lot of teams only really have a competition for like a week, right, and then they and then they call it, you know, because somebody at some point in time, you
have to start getting the guy ready. And at this point, I want Mac Jones to be the guy. I want everything this offseason to be pushing those chips in the middle of the table of Mac Jones being the guy. Where I will open the door for Bailey Zappy is if they start zero and four, they start one six, if they start terribly, yeah, and now they have decided that Mac is not our future. We are going to draft another quarterback. We're gonna be in the quarterback carousel
again next offseason. And if they want to give the last seven eight games to Bailey Zappy to see, well, maybe it's Bailey.
Just to see right, just to find out because fine might as well know.
Fine, but this year is about deciding on Mac Jones and getting him into a quarterback competition in the summer does him no good.
But I and I'm right there with you. It should be Mac Jones.
It's his job.
I wrote this last year after the Bears game. It's still Mac Jones' job because it was his job to lose and he didn't lose it.
He didn't.
He did not lose it last year. Right now, I don't know that they'll see it the same way. I would not be surprised if we get out there and it's him and Bailey ZAPPI splitting reps fifty fifty. I don't think it would be the right.
Move, but I could see it. Will bug me, I know, no, it'll bug me too, But could you see it? I could one hundred percent see it. And that's exactly I wanted to get this take out because I could see it coming from a mile away. And what I think is gonna again, what I will repeat, I think is gonna end up happening if you do that to yourself, is that neither Mac Jones nor Bailey's Appy will play well.
It's gonna look discombobulated again. Yeah, because there's not gonna be that chemistry.
Right, So let's let's like you said, when you have when you have two quarterbacks, you don't have a quarterback. Even if this is this is really what it is to me, Even if mac Jones isn't the guy, I want them to act like he's the guy. I want them to play the part for now. And if you decide come October, come November like this just isn't working here and this isn't the path that we're gonna go down long term, then then maybe you get Bailey some games late in the year to see what he's got.
So that way, there you have a full picture of how you're going into your off season to jump back on the carousel. But for right now, you act like he's the unquestioned QB one he acts, and I want to see that out of him too, Like I want to see him acting like he's the young question QB one, him him leading the offense, him playing with confidence, Like those are the types of things that I want to see. And look, I'll admit and I think you're in the
same boat, Alex, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm more confident in mac Jones than other people are, I think, And I'm willing to live on that hill like I'm willing to die on it. I mean, I think he can play in this league. I think that he can be a starting quarterback in this league. Do I think that he's ever going to be Patrick Mahomes?
No?
But do I think that he could be at least Kirk Cousins in the NFL if things are how they should be. Yes, And I think there's a lot to be said for that level of quarterback, Like, yes, you could jump back in the carousel and go after the lottery ticket, right and try to chase a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen.
Means it goes back to something we said earlier. Patriots fans already fed up? Right, Yeah, do you want to spend two decades doing that? Because that's usually how long it takes. I'm with you on mac Jones. Look, I think, and I've given this speech before. If you're sitting here on May twenty fifth, twenty twenty three, and you're comfortable definitively saying mac Jones is the answer, or comfortable saying mac Jones is not the answer, You're kidding yourself. Yeah,
because we don't know. We haven't seen enough to know something as an anomaly. Either twenty twenty one is the anomaly or twenty twenty two is the anomaly.
Yep.
If I had a guess, and I'd like to think I've watched a little bit of football in my life. I have a decent understanding how these things work. Yeah, nobody's right every time. But I again, I've seen the game once or twice. I think twenty twenty two is the anomaly. Yeah, I think he's closer to the player he was as a rookie than he was last year. I go back to a comp evan. Both of us made a lot coming out of the draft. That's as the ceiling, and that's Matt Ryan.
Oh yeah, we did. That was our ceiling.
I still think that's on the table if they put the right pieces around him.
Ceiling feels like I still think.
That's on the table if they put the right if they put the right pieces around him.
Does he get Sark and Julio Jones too, or is it just Matt ran Well.
I wanted to ask you Shanahan, or I wanted to ask you that that actually reminds me a question I meant to ask earlier, we didn't get to it is Bill O'Brien. He's had three offensive coordinators now or will have three? Bill o brian the best offensive coordinator Mac Jones has had.
Well, somebody actually asked us in that email, Josh McDaniels or Bill O'Brien. I think that Bill O'Brien. It's a good question. I think Bill O'Brien's maybe a little bit more creative, like a little bit more innovative. Yes, I say more than a little. I think that he's somebody that truly enjoys the evolution of the game, and like I think he has a lot of fun. Like I think I talked to him last time he had assistants.
I talked to Will Longing, the new tight ends coach who came with Bill O'Brien, was in Houston with Bill O'Brien. Then he was with Alabama with Bill O'Brien. So he was, yeah,
so he's followed him everywhere. And the one thing, you know, we were talking a little bit about Alabama and everything they did there, and a couple of things that he said was, you know, Bill's really good at We've had some very very different personnel pretty much everywhere we've gone, you know, like it really hasn't been you know, at Penn State it was like Christian Hackenberg, right, it was then it was DeShawn obviously in Hopkins, very different quarterbacks
Houston and then and now it's Price Young, right, and and what they've had at Alabama and he said, you know that they they really ran things through the strengths of the personnel, and some of that was drastically different, right. And I think the other thing that he mentioned, you know, we were talking a little bit about the RPO package at Alabama, and I was just like, you know what makes it. It's this, It's it's held to a very high standard in terms of RPO.
The Alabama RPO package, for people who don't know, is like the gold stand That is when when when people want to show what an RPO is, how an RPO is supposed to work the show element.
Yeah, so it's one of the gold standards of it for sure. And he said that that was is.
Like the titleist pro Yeah of r PO package.
I don't know what that means. That's like the golf. I have no idea what he's talking about.
It's like three dollars a ball.
Is that expensive?
Yes?
Okay, so uh expensive? No idea, uh RPO the RPO package. And he said, well that was already there, you know that we kind of adopted that and and kind of learned about it and and all those types of things. So I think that Bill O'Brien's a little bit more open to new ideas, I guess, you know, and a little bit more innovative and a little bit more cutting edge, if you will, than Josh McDaniels. I do think that there's something to be said for the foundational elements for McDaniels.
Like I think that his his core set of plays and like his core playbook is gonna be sound in football one hundred years ago and one hundred years so right, Like it just it's always gonna work. That's something to be said for that.
To go back to the original question, is Bill O'Brien the best offensive coordinator Max's ever had?
Yeah?
That, And I know you're a guy that really likes and really respects Josh McDaniels, are not knocking you for that, But that sounded like a really long way of saying, yes, Bill O'Brien is better without actually saying it because you didn't want to say that about Josh McDaniels. Am I translating correctly.
They're just different cats. I don't know, they're just different like Josh. Josh is a traditionalist, right, like Josh is under center full back.
Who is better for mac Jones? I'm not saying who's a better offense corner.
I would say probably Bill O'Brien because you know what, I think another big difference between the two of them two is Bill O'Brien's a little bit more of a gun slinger, Like Bill O'Brien shoots from.
The hippottle a little more just effet.
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I don't mean that as like, you know, last year, like they're chucking the ball fifty yards down the field and throwing picks. I don't mean it like that. I just mean like he's a little bit more willing to try stuff.
He'll put his cards on the table. Yeah yeah, So yeah, to go back to the original original question.
Now that's the PG wave of putting that.
To go back to yeah, I know, to go back to the original way, the original question of or the original point of I still think the truth ceiling that Matt Ryan Kopp is still there, and you had said, does he get Steve Sarkisian, does he get Julio Jones?
So he doesn't have Julio Jones yet?
Well what have we spent this entire offseason yelling about more than anything else?
Right, So that's my point.
I'm not saying he's going to be Matt Ryan this year, but I'm saying if they get him everything they need to get him, I think they can. And that is part of the reason I've been so blue in the face about go get Jerry Judy, go get one of these guys. And I'm still gonna be that. Well, we'll see how it goes this year, but like assuming he comes back, and we'll be saying that next year, right,
let's trade up in the draft. They're not gonna be able to get Marvin Harrison junior, but go get save you're worthy, Go get a guy like that.
It's gonna be really interesting to see what if mac thrives more in Bill O'Brien's system than McDaniel's system. But let's say he does, because mcdaniels's system is very much like you play my system, right, like you like Cam Newton was like running the same drought back concept as Tom bract Like. It's like just like you have to figure this out, whereas I think Bill O'Brien is a little bit more Yeah, like I said, a little bit more cutting out, a little bit more willing to evolve.
So to go back to the point Bill O'Brien's here, let's say they click this, yere works that next year they go out and they get add the any wide receiver number one you want, right, a real wide receiver one. What are we going to be sitting here saying the expectations are for mac Jones, Hi exactly. That's good point.
All right, let's move on from this. And I'm sorry we got some people a little bit angry. So if you want to call in and yell at us about the quarterback competition, which I still can't figure out for the life I.
Think people are just annoyed that we talked about it, which I'm kind of glad.
I just can't figure out for the life of me why people want a quarterback competition Like that doesn't mean that's not a good thing, folks. It's not a good thing if you if you have a quarterback competition means both of your guys think, all right, like.
They weren't having quarterback competitions when they were winning six Super.
Bowl Yeah, no, exactly. Maybe backup, you don't go to Kansas City OTAs and they're like, oh, what about that quarterback competition today? Guys, No, they don't talk about those types of things anyways. What else so with with OTAs, I think the other big thing, Look, the rookies is always a popular one. I think we're all looking forward to seeing Christian Gonzales, even seeing you know, tomorrow Douglas and Kaishan Bhute, right like that, that's always out there,
and the rookies are up there. How they replaced Devin mccordy in that back on defense and that I think we can really start to glean some things from OTAs just because of who is playing what position, right, Like, it's not necessarily you know, game planned, it's not we're not getting even close to anything like that, but we can see who's lining up where right, and that's gonna
be a big tell. And I'm I'm I'm fascinated by it because there is a couple, there's more than a couple, there's a probably half a dozen ways that I can think of that they could do this, and then there's probably another half a dozen that they that I I'm not thinking about that they are, right Like, so we're we're talking about a lot of different variables in a
lot of different ways about going about things. I think the the really really like off the beaten path things that people have come up with, for example, like Jonathan Jones moving to free safety. I don't think that that's something that you do right away. I don't think that that's a that that's something that you jump to immediately.
I think that's something that you might go to if you are giving up big plays all over the place in September and you just you have to figure out something else, right, you have to come up with a different idea. I think for right now, what I think they're going to try to do is really not put too much on one guy's plate to play the single high role all by himself and kind of be a little bit more unpredictable, Like less predictable, I guess is
a better way to put that, right. Because I remember Devin mccordy, shortly after he announced that he was retiring, he actually tweeted this out that one of the biggest things for him looking at their defense was opposing offenses knew where he was going to be, Like he was going to be in the deep part of the field, right Like everybody knew that that's where Devin mccordy was
going to be. Now with Kyle Duggart, with Adrian Phillips and Jabriel Peppers, and I do believe that we're gonna get out there and Jalen Mills is going to be a safety. I think he's going to be working with the safeties. Jalen Mills with the safeties. They they are a little bit more interchangeable, Like they have that potential to be a little bit more versatile, a little bit more mixed and match and interchangeable. And my guess is is that that's what you're going to see a ton of.
It's gonna be a lot of post snap rotations, not a whole lot of static structure. It's going to be too high into one high. It's gonna be one high into too high, and they're really just gonna spin the dial, which they do a lot anyways. But I think at the end of the day, what was always had, you know, most of the time is Devon was spinning the dial into the same spot right right, So they might start
it too high. But when they rotated into single high, they know that the buzz player is going to be Kyle Duggar and the single high guy is gonna be Devin mccordy. Now it could be either one of those safeties, which maybe does present a little bit more of unpredictability. But that's where I think that we're gonna see most of it. So I think we're gonna get out there at ota Is next week and everybody's gonna be playing free safety. It's not, you know, and I think that
will be a big storyline. Yeah, I agree with you there.
You know, you named a bunch of different possibilities. Is it Kyle Duggar, Is it Jonathan Jones? Is it Jalen Mills? Is Miles Bryant back there? Are they going one high? Are they going too high? I think the reality is all the above. I think it's gonna be a little bit of everything. You know. The real question is when they get down into goal line, what does it look like?
Right?
You know, if they do a two minute drill when it's third and ten, fourth and ten, right, does it look like that's really the question. But I think it's gonna be a whole bunch of different looks. I don't think they're gonna stick with one thing, and that's gonna be how they replace Devin mccordy.
Yeah, I don't think you replaced a player of that caliber just by saying you got it, Kyle Duggar right, like, like you're Devin mccordy now. Like, I don't think you can do that because there's just so much downloaded into the computer from Devin McCarty's perspective for all the years that he was back there that I think it's so hard to just ask one guy to replace a player like that. I mean, you're asking one guy to basically replace a borderline Hall of Fame player guy I would
put it in Canton. But you know, maybe that's an argument for people that aren't as biased as me on that one, but in general, I think that's that's not how you do it. I am really interested to see when we get into the season, and obviously, you know, keep track of this type of stuff, like do they get more into the too high family, Like are they more of a cover two quarters based defense instead of what they've been so heavily a post safety cover three,
cover one defense for Devin McCarty's career. Are do they go on that trend a little bit more, because that's the trend right now, right it's the Fangio tree, it's college style stuff, it's type fronts, it's you know, so much of what the league is doing now is to try to slow down. Obviously these quarterbacks and these passing
offenses and too high is getting extremely popular. And even the Patriots have been a little bit more too high heavy, certainly in certain situations in particular, than they have been in the past, and that that's actually not you know that Bill's played some too high in his career, like he's been a base too high guy. Early two thousands they did a little bit more than they do now. Yeah, eighties with the Giants, they were, I mean, because it's so long ago, Cover twos, cover two doesn't change.
S got distracted because the Falcons ran a surprise on sidekick on the TV behind you.
It's okay, I was watching Michael Vick highlights when callers
were calling in and complaining about how bad the team was. Like, yeah, so anyways, I'm interested to see that I'm trying to think of this is our first look and just kind of moving away from the defense for a second, because, to be honest with you, as much as I wish that we could talk about like storylines on the defensive line and stuff like that, there's no pads, there's no contact, So I'm not gonna get too caught up in like what Keon White looks like in this these spring practices,
you know, I think we'll talk about like what he looks like physically, like you know that that sometimes pops out at you, like even though he's not the same player. But Sam Roberts last year, I remember being like, Okay, that guy's gigantic. Yeah, like that's an NFL defensive lineman.
So maybe we'll see some of that. But the other thing that I think will be really interesting about what happens is we've really we've not seen Juju or Mike Kasiki like in the Patriot uniform yet, right, Like, this is sort of our first look at that and really our first semblance of what their roles are gonna sort of be. And I think, in particularly with Juju, what how are they gonna make him the high volume guy? Because he's clearly here to be the high volume guy, right.
You know, he's gonna be a guy that, in theory should have one hundred plus targets seventy five plus catches like he had ninety last year catches wise with the with Kansas City, So he should be a high volume guy. First time really kind of seeing what that's gonna look like. What do you expect I guess out of this those
Juju things. I think a lot of it is we almost like have forgotten, not forgotten, but I think we talked so much about some of the other guys that that juju, and in particular, we haven't really talked about him a lot lately. You know, it's kind of with the draft and everything.
Yeah, no, I mean exactly what you said. I think he's going to be in the slot. I think he's gonna be that guy. I think he should be on pace to catch one hundred footballs. So yeah, we'll see if there's confirmation of that to one other and I so I don't know if we'll see him. You kind of reminded me of this with Keon White.
Don't want to bring this up.
I talked about how this is really more so ot is more about learning usage than seeing like who's beating out who for what position? Yeah, I don't it doesn't is Martain Mapu gonna be on the field, Like, I'm not sure think so right, because it's coming back from that shoulder surgery. I really would have liked to see how they were using him.
Yeah, hopefully, like maybe there he's healthy enough to like go through like positional drills and stuff like that. He's definitely I would be absolutely shocked if he's participating in
anything team related, but maybe he's in. When I see team related, I mean like seven on seven, eleven on eleven, if maybe we get to see him go through a positional drill which helps us dictate where what position he's thrilling, So maybe we get to see that that that those are always interesting, you know who's who's changing positions, who's working out with what, especially with those types of guys like Mapu kind of like blare the lines between a
couple positions of where he could potentially be one last thing that I had on my list, And uh, you know, just a general take on this as well, I might be right about it at some point because I think this is such a big They were just talking about Julio Jones. Can Mac that guy Taekwon Thornton Like this is this is a low key big deal for this offense. Is type is making Taekwon Thornton work, like making him
a thing? It's Mac Joe. Making Mac Jones work is number one by a long shot, but making Taekwon Thornton work might be number two. Don't they kind of go hand in hand? Yeah? Jones are what I mean?
Don't you have to get Taekwon Thornton going?
Yeah? And I think that that's sort of where I'm coming from. So I think that when you look at Bill O'Brien, he's actually had two receivers that have similar body types to Taekwon Thory. Now one of them's Will Fuller.
Uh.
With with the the Texans, will Fuller was like six feet one eighty five.
I was surprised. I will Fuller to me always seemed like a much bigger guy.
Than me too. Yeah, but he's not. I looked this up and what he waited at the combine. He seemed to play bigger, and I think that the difference, you know, watched I went back and watched will Fuller's big season. I think it was twenty nineteen with Bill O'Brien made, Yeah, eighteen nineteen something like that, and uh, the one thing that definitely stood out was, you know, they would give him these opportunities on twenty twenty on the outside to just go one on one and uh and he well,
twenty twenty. I think it wasn't that was his big year, but that was no Brian, Brian, Brian, that was well Brian for the first four weeks of the season. Oh, you're right. So I looked at twenty nineteen.
He had a pretty good year in twenty nineteen two as pretty good did There were a lot of times and this is sort of what I've said about Taekwon in the past, where he's just going one on one against press on the outside and wins, right, you know, And I think the big thing.
Not only getting off the line of scrimmage, but being able to finish through some contact at the catch point was something that stood out with Bill Fuller. If Taekwon is going to be an eight hundred yard plus like a really good receiver, not just a field stretcher, not just like this gimmicky thing. If he's gonna be like a high volume, really really good receiver. He's going to
have to add that to his bag. And I think that's where putting on weight, developing his routes, you know, developing his strength down the field, like, that's where those things come into play from him on an individual basis. But there was a lot of other things that that
O'Brien did with Will Fuller. The other guy that as a similar body type is Jameson Williams, right, And I think you look at those two guys and some of the alignments and some of the ways that Bill o'pro and a either created foot races for them in space or b just simply got them off the line of scrimmage without them having to make a move off the line of scrimmage and press right like that just a stack, you know, where it's one guy in front of him
and him off the line of scrimmage. So it just kind of creates that natural separation, that natural bubble of space like a pick or a bunch formation, which is similar motion certainly like bringing him in motion before the snap are at the snab to avoid contact. Those are the types of things that I think that Bill O'Brien can do that will get Taekwon to be a threat, right, the stats are gonna come from Taekwon, Like, Taekwon's going
to have to do that individually. But for Taiwan to be a threat, I think Bill O'Brien can do that with alignment, with play calling, with that type of stuff. And the other thing he did with Fuller was obviously play action shots right, deep post routs, deep overs, things like that off play action where the intermediate is sucking up the safety and then it becomes a one on one for the receiver over the top. Like those are the
types of things that the coach can do. What I want to see out of Taekwon is certainly, look where's he at physically, Like in terms of his frame. You know, if he comes in and no one wants him to be two hundred and ten pounds and lose the four to two eight like, no one wants that pose. Yeah, but if he's one ninety instead of one to eighty,
like that could be a big difference. And just his physicality and his willingness to kind of fight through some contact and finish plays and finish routes not just catches right like, not just fighting for it at the catch point but when he breaks the route off is it is he able to kind of stave off a defender. Is he able to kind of run through the frame a little bit and through that contact to get himself separation.
He is a big time X factor for this team and it feels like, like you said, it goes hand in hand with mac Jones, And if this offense is to hit its ceiling, then both those guys have to hit their ceilings, so they both have to individually perform.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know, I think it's that Z position And that's probably where I know a lot of people think of Thornton as an X because he's six three.
Yeah, I think it's that Z And I know.
You just talked a lot about Taekwon Thornton, but to me, it's between Thornton and Born. They need somebody in that position like truly producing.
You know that.
I don't want to say, pull these numbers out of nowhere. I kept running that that pff FLA season simulators just because I was curious earlier. Good good that they well, no, make fun of the simulator, not me.
Well, you know, it's a little bit of I.
Like Kendrick Bourne kept getting like fifty catches, eight hundred yards, like five touchdowns. Well no, but here's my point, Like, if they can get that stat line from the Z position, whether that's Born or Thornton, like that, they're in great shape. Right, that's kind of the season you're looking for from that role.
Yeah, I think you know, when we talked about the Z position, it's Wes Welker and Julian Edelman are one type Z, and obviously Taekwon is a different type of Z. Right,
He's not going to be a jitterbug. He's not going to be you know, five yard ends and whip routs and like that's not gonna be his game necessarily, But that doesn't mean that he's not a Z. And when you say a Z, you mean a guy that is playing off the line of scrimmage, right, So that allows him to move around, that allows him to come in motion, that allows him to play in the slot a lot, and to basically play off of the line so that he's not pressed up against a second X. And this
team really, I think is still gravitating to Devonte Parker probably being the primary X guy. I mean they should just simply because he's the best body type and best player for it right now, that leads Taekwon as probably the natural Z in a different type of mold certainly than what they've had historically there and then Juju, it's kind of it kind of becomes like a different he's kind of an F right, like he's.
He's a slot.
So the F is the F is the other off the line receiver, right, So X is your X, you backside on the line receiver. Z is your flankers. He is your move around guy's the guy that plays off the line too. And in three receiver sets, O'Brien calls it an F like it's the F receiver, which is your other off the line guy that's not playing on the on the weak side of the formation, so he's playing on the same side as the tight end primarily. That that feels like Juju, And you know that that position.
You know O'Brien's offense plays a ton in the slot. You know that that that's a guy that's probably going to play sixty five percent at least out of the slot. And you start to get into that's right, and you
start to get in some different things. So the question really is is with this receiver group other than the rookies, which we can get to here in a second and kind of end it with that is when they are playing twelve personnel, Kaziki kind of becomes the f right like he's the move tight end, you know, Hunter Henry is still the why? Like how who comes off the field? Right? Like is Taekwon then become an X? Or does Taekwon come off the field and Devonte Parker stays on the
field as the X? Like how does that situation sort itself out? But in three receiver sets? Like you know that should? I think that Taekwon is a natural Z, Like that's the guy that is your fastest, most dynamic player and I think right now that's probably him.
Well, I think the beauty of it and if they're gonna go back to true Earhart Perkins, right is you do both because if you're running the same play like the same x's and o's and draw lines forever, right, Yeah, But you run it once with Parker at the X, Thornton at the z juju in the slot Hunter Henry is your tight end, and then you run it again with Thornton at the X juju as the z Kasiki is the slot and Henry is the tight end. Even though it's the same rep combination, it's a very different
play that has to be defended. That personnel grouping has to be defended completely differently with a different package. So ideally, the answer to your question is sometimes this sometimes that I've been saying this for two years, the strength of this team's receiver group. I know they don't have a true number one, but I think there's legitimate strength and legitimate upside in the fact that there's really no overlap outside of maybe Borden and Thornton, but not even really everybody.
Everybody wins differently, and you can throw Gasiki and Henry into that as well. So when you can, and when they were at their best in the first O'Brien stint and early on with Josh McDaniels, this is what they did. They don't run a lot of different plays. They just run the plays they run with different personnel and the execute him at a very high level. Yeah, it's they kind of have the perfect offense.
To get back to that. It's window dressing, you know. They dress them up differently and it looks a little bit different, but it's really the same. Yeah. Look, I think there's a lot to be said for all that, and it's gonna be interesting to see how they use all these guys that are I will we will both fully admit I think that none of these guys. They don't have a Tyreek Hill. They don't have a Stefon Diggs.
They don't have a DeVante Adams, they don't have an aj Brown, they don't have one of those guys as just you know, the most talented guy on the field. They don't. But they do have guys that they can mix and match with a little bit, and it can place in do some different things. And if you can get Taekwon's speed to be a factor, and you can get Juju's catch and run ability to be a factor, and if you can get Kasiki's seam running ability to be a factor, then those things can put stresses on
defenses individually. Even if it's not like one guy that on Tesday, you know, the Tuesday meeting guy like that, they don't. They still don't have that guy. We can fully admit that.
I just hope, you know, is disappointing last year to see them come out in like my And this isn't anything against any of these players specifically but you know, Myers, Agalore and Parker all had like over an eighty five percent usage eight week one, and they didn't play Kendrick Bourne.
And I'm not necessarily necessarily saying they should have played George Humphrey, but it was those three that was And then too, when Thornton came back, they kind of pushed well, first Jakoby Myers has hurt, and then they kind of pushed Nelson Agiler out of a lineup and they still just it was just the same three receivers and they didn't rotate or mix and match at all, and that's
always been a strength of what they do offensively. I really hope they get back to that because this group, to me, is built to play offense like that, where yeah, Juju is probably gonna be a ninety something percent usage guy. He should, He's not gonna come off the field after him. Everybody else, Parker Born, Shton, Henry Kasiki.
It's situational.
They need to be rotating all those and I'm not saying it's fifty to fifty for everybody, but they need to be rotating all those guys in and out a healthy amount.
All right, let's take a phone call and then we'll wrap it here, Jerry, what's up?
What's going on for Let's tell y'all doing it well? All right? So I got a quick question, is there any way possible this season where we see what's his name? Gonzales, Jack Jones, and Isaiah Boulden on the field at the same time. And the reason why I ask is because based off them through the loan, that's a lot of speed in one section, so I feel like we'll be able to play a lot of man and man press. But just wanted to get your.
Thoughts on that.
Yeah, no problem, Jerry, And that kind of segues us perfectly because I was gonna wrap it with the rookies, which is always whenever we get a chance to first see the rookies, it's always a good thing to watch. Isaiah Bolden. I'm not sure I think Isaiah Bolden projecting Isaiah Bolden. I don't know how you feel about this. Alex says anything more than a special team or at this stage I think is a little bit lofty, like, yes, he's fast. I yes, I've some of the film I
have seen on him. His physicality at the line of scrimmage is decent. You know he can do some of those types of things. I just wouldn't get to I don't know. I can't. I can't get myself too excited about him on defense. I not yet. At least let's see what it looks like.
So if we are going to have that conversation. Yeah, and I've said this before, I said this when they drafted him. I wonder if he's a safety in the NFL. I just look at the way he processes the game. Yeah, and his straight I think he is better straight line speed than you know, change of direction ability. I think if they're gonna play him on defense, and I'm with you, like see him on special teams first and build up
to that. But I if he's gonna play on defense, I want to see him at like true if they want to go single high, I'm not saying he put him out there against the Chiefs out of nowhere, but I'm curious to look start out with second team. What does he look like as a single high safety or even in too high. What does he look like playing free safety? Because if he is gonna play defense in the NFL, I think that's probably a better role for him than corner.
Yeah. I don't disagree with you there.
And I think he played some safety at Jackson State.
They played a lot of zone, so you know, I think that some of his interceptions, like you could see some of that translating to safety, right, you know, like where he's kind of ball howking things like that. Wrapping it up here on the rookies. Look, I think everybody knows that I'm excited to see Christian Gonzales. Maybe just a little bit, but I think the biggest thing with Christian Gonzalez is I do feel like and we not
gonna lie. We haven't had the best the best track record of this in our time covering the team because of the way that they've drafted, unfortunately, but I fully believe in the fact that you can see it almost right away when a guy is just different, like when we're we're not talking about you know, you're talking about
movement skills. Yeah, and I'm not talking about like when when I say different, I don't mean like Taekwon, who we know on a track and burn anybody out there right Like you know, I'm talking about just is a freak, like just looks different, looks like looks the part looks The first round pick Worthy and I I'm hoping and I'm thinking that that's exactly what we're going to see out of Christian Zalez, where he just looks like somebody that is different than the vast majority of the rest
of the players out there. The other two guys, look, this is a passing camp. And even though we just talked about it earlier Trey Nixon being the star of the summer last year, Frankly, if Kishan Butte or do Mario Douglas has any chance of hitting the ceiling that I think both of us think that they have the potential to hit, we gotta start seeing it now like this is there's no contact, there's no there's no reason if you're a good receiver you should show out in
these types of practices. So we're gonna I'm not trying to put too much pressure on them. I'm just saying, you know, if we're gonna see flashes from either one of those guys, it's gonna come in the spring. So oh, we'll see what those two guys look like as well. And I looked it up.
Isaiah Bolden only played thirty six snaps at free safety last year, compared to five hundred and ninety two is the slot corner, so would be new for him. But again I try. Yeah, I'm with you on the receivers. I think Kaishawn Butte is going to get as much attention as maybe any player really outside of the quarterbacks in this in this spring session here really excited to
see what he can do. I'm like back and forth, like tomorrow, Douglas is the kind of player that should tear up the spring But I feel like the role for him is going to be that gadget basically Marcus Jones role. Right, They're not gonna tip their hand on that till they have to. We're not gonna see that that's being done in the close practices. That's not being done when we're they're so yeah, I know how much we'll see him in like team drills, but one on ones I expect him to be electric.
Yeah, I think that that's that's a fair assessment. I just think that either one of those guys, like I just said, it's a passing camp. This is not a full padded practice. If you can't get open in ot as, you are not going to get open in the real thing, right, Like, that's just the bottom line. You're just it's it's got to start somewhere, and for receivers it often starts in the spring. All right, anything else that I missed, I don't think so. I think that that about covers it.
Like I said earlier, the trenches, the trail, like we'll see who's out there, we'll see who's at left tackle, who's at right tackle. Those will be notes, certainly, but you're not really going to grade them or like evaluate them.
Right.
I am excited to get the stopwatch out for Bryce.
That was That was what I was gonna ask you about. How so it's all seriousness. Do you put any stock on whatsoever about what happens in the spring with the specialists? So this is I think the one because there's some pressure on these specialists. Now, yeah, this is actually Land. I mean seriously, fourth round pick, Like that guy needs to pan out.
Well, actually, there's less pressure on him than Barringer because Ryland's making the team. He's a fourth ron pick.
Well, I don't mean it like that, but like if this is another Justin rohor Wasser situation, then that that's fair. It's not about the pressure on Ryland. It's more about the pressure for the scouting department that Ryland is. Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
I think that's This is the one position where you can start to evaluate, especially like hopefully, well, I don't want to stand out and watch in the rain. But I remember twenty twenty one, we got that one day where it was like pouring rain at Otac, Remember that, and they kicked the ball the entire day.
Yeah, this is the one spot where it is fever dream right there. You know you got a new holder, new kicker. Hours of kicking.
Oh yeah, new holder, new kicker. How are they working together? Yeah, you can you can start to evaluate this a little bit. I think Ryland's gonna beat out Folk. That's just he's a fourth round pick. Folk didn't finish the season well last year. Barrenger should beat out Weightman. But maybe there's more of a competition there.
Yeah, just because it's your But if you've cut a six round pick, it's not like unheard of to do something like that.
He's also a guy that just I think you can get Corless weightman, or you can get Price Baron on the practice squad, and if Weightman's not the guy, you make the switch. However, many weeks in the season, whereas if you cut Chad Ryland, somebody's gonna pick him up.
So I don't know how much like snap holds kick we're gonna get in spring practices because sometimes they don't kick as much field goals like that, Well we'll see it.
It'll just be off to the side, right, That's that.
Like, look, I the Patriots need to have all their eyes dotted and all their tea's crossed this year, right like we can't have any botched holes. We can't have any snaps Canna that you know, Joe Kurdona is snapping has really ever been a huge issue. But you know what I'm trying to say, they got to be good on the margins. And that's a new battery, right like that that operation is new and this is getting into
the barth of it all. But let's be honest, like it's a snapper holder kicker has been for the last couple of years. The majority of it has been Joe Cardona, Jake Bailey, Nick Folk. Right now it's changed.
So a really interesting thing will be and I normally do this, I might need to stop watch this year because what I want to do this year, I might enlist.
You to help me with this X. I don't know if I had it, honestly.
So the really interesting thing because they had too many blocked kicks last year. Yeah, I think what I probably should be timing, or I'll get you to time while I do the hangtimes is the operation time?
Yeah?
What is the time from snap to kick, both on the punt in the field goal. Yeah, that's what I'm really gonna be watching because their operation times last year we're not good. And I never really went back and looked at it to the extent of like, who is this on? I mean, on the punts, it's usually pretty much on the punter, but field goals, it can be on the snapper, can be on the whole, or can
even be on the kicker sometimes the combination. I'm gonna be interested to see what the operation times are because they need to be quicker this year so that weren't quick enough that year.
That's why you listen to this show. If you if you listen to this show, and we thank all everybody that listens, but we I want to really think the die hards, because the diehards are listening an hour and twenty minutes in to hear Alex talk about operation.
Let's be honest, Evan, had you and you've covered this game a long time, have you ever heard the term operation time before before?
And just now yeah, yeah from you like three years ago. Okay, now I know what it is. Uh yeah, So they're all big.
So when I was in college and I covered the team in college, I was really good friends with the kicker on the team and three college football, yeah d three college. But but we were watching the national championship and I remember we sit down and watch the game. The team scores, and he pulls out his phone, like what are you doing? He goes, I want to see what their operation time is? That like natch this team that's like everybody knows Mount Union's like the d through Powerhouse, right, yeah,
people know what that is. So he's like, you know they're Mount Union. I want to see what they are compared to us. And it was off by like they were slower than what his was by like two hundreds of a second. You would have thought he won the Heisman with how proud he was like, yeah, we got a better operation. This is huge, huge to those specialties, guys, big big.
So I'm curious what it'll be all right, so, uh humor me for two more minutes. You're going to cover the Celtics tonight.
I am going to cover the Celtic so that's where Alex.
Is headed, so you can check out his Celtics. We don't do Celtics coverage here, so I can I can plug your Celtics coverage and not you know, be stepping out on ninety five the sports sub dot com.
It's also funny like I was ready assuming there was going to be an Ota practice today for people to be like really mad at us for not doing your show. I know if there had been both show would have been tomorrow.
Marie Matt was a was a trooper about uh no pun intended about all the different time changes and trying to lock down a time But we didn't have to run into that issue my one minute on the Celtics because I you know me, I gotta talk some Celtics in the middle of May. My one minute on the Celtics is I am not allowing myself to be excited or hyped up or anything for this game tonight. It
is not a series until they win tonight. If they win tonight, then evan Celtics footy pajamas is coming out right, Like, yeah, Green team or Evan is is out in full swing if they win tonight and then because then you start to believe, right, Like then then the believe creeps in. Then they'll crush me in Game six. But like that's when the belief kicks in. The one thing I really believe from a basketball standpoint now, not a Green Team or Evan Pom Pom standpoint, the Miami Heat. We've talked
about this off the year. The Miami Heat, all playoff long, playoffs long have shot the three out of their minds like they were, Like I think they've been like forty six percent from three right in the playoffs. If they are finally and uh not having gave Vincent helps also because he's been one of the better knockdown shooters that they've had. Yeah, if they are finally regressing back to
the mean, then the Celtics have hope. I am not giving the Celtics hope strictly off the fact that the Celtics are good enough to just blow doors in four straight games against Miami, right, They're gonna need some luck and the luck comes in with uh Strauss Duncan Robinson, Kyle Lowry, Kevin Love obviously, Caleb Martin starting to miss right like that, that's light.
Well, so here's the big thing. Kyle Lowry has not been good in this series.
Right, But that scares me for tonight because does Kyle Lowry have because he's starting, does he have a throwback like in the in his vault game to know that's.
Gonna be more than thirty two minutes twice in the last three years in any game. So that's interesting.
So because that's their whole run right now, is Jimmy and Bam like in the middle of the court does drawing four eyeballs and then then they either scoring or kicking it out to open shoes.
Which, by the way, is what the Celtics offense should be.
But that but that's been their offense, right especially around Jimmy. If all of a sudden, Jimmy's kicking it out to Duncan Robinson and he's air balling threes, then they're there. There goes their offense, right, So that's the that's what the Celtics need to happen. The Celtics need Miami's role players to get cold.
Are we going here?
That's it? That's the sign all you told me, you told me, I told you I had two minutes on the Celtics. Two minutes, all right, but go cover the Celtics. Go HAPPI with that, Alex and I will be back next week. Ot a's are on Wednesday. We might do show Wednesday, might do it Thursday, but we'll definitely do a OTA recap show. So don't you worry. You have that right here on Patriots dot com Patriots Catch twenty two. Leave us a review, and we'll see you guys next week.
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