This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan Lazar and Alex Barth. I'm Lazar, Lazar Lazar. Hello, everybody nailed it, joined us always buying our Barak David match. No really, Chulk here is Evan Lazar and Alex barr Zach Wilson is definitely like the worst person to get stuck flaying golf with. You made it eight episodes before I got into a golf rance. Evan, good job. Hello, everybody, Welcome into a new edition of The Patriots Catch twenty two.
I've opened Lazar every show we've done together the same way for three years, and it took a golf reference to throw you off of that. Wow, it definitely did throw me off because you know my feelings on golf. You also told me that I had to stay focused on the show because Argentina Poland is on right behind you. So I'm trying not to watch that right now because I do want to focus on the show. So that's what we're gonna do. Uh, we are going to creeve you the bills here today. That's gonna be a big
part of the show. But I do want to go back and talk a little bit about the Vikings game, not necessarily get into the nitty gritty because I think it has been almost a week now and we're kind of onto Buffalo around here, Alex, But well, you, I do want to talk a little bit about that game as well, and that's where I want to start. And every show I try to come up with my my one big thing that I need to get off my chest what really grinds my gears about about what's going
to the narrative. So the talk around the thank you,
thank you, Yes, I knew he had it. And when you come off a game like that in Minnesota last Thursday night, and I'm not saying everybody, and I'm I'm gonna not saying anybody in particular, but when you come off a game like that on Thursday night, I feel like the conversation immediately for the majority goes to the defense getting shredded by Justin Jefferson and the Vikings, the special teams giving up a touchdown and running into the punter and all of these other factors right that go
into losing the game, the referees, and I'm not saying that the offense always escapes blame, but I think in this particular instance. I heard a lot of that, right, Like the defense couldn't stop a real offense when they played a real offense. The special teams was terrible, the f's were terrible, and all of that might be true. It probably is true. A lot of it is true.
But what I think the biggest problem that I have with why it gets me agitated is because we look at that and we don't We're trying to take away blame from the offense, right, And I've had some people that sit here and tell me, oh, well, twenty six points should be enough to win a game. Twenty six points probably wins you a lot of games this league, right, It probably wins you a lot of those games against the Lions, or against the Jets with Zach Wilson at quarterback,
or the Colt with Sam Ellinger. Like, that's gonna win you a lot of football games at twenty six points. But when the Patriots play teams like Minnesota on the road on Thanksgiving night of another playoff team they play Buffalo here tomorrow night, the offense has to be able to win you a game. Eventually, Yeah, eventually, the offense
has to be able to drive the bus. Because the Patriots to me right now, Alex and I think the biggest reason why the Patriots cannot get over the hump of being a six and five mediocre average operation is because they can only win games one way. They only have one winning formula, and that is that the defense dominates. They play a clean game across the board, and the offense is allowed to just kind of coast to a victory and there's never any real pressure on the offense
in a fourth quarter or in a big spot. That's how they win football games. When they get into these games where the defense doesn't have its best day, the special teams make some mistakes, there's some adversity for the offense. They do not have the ability yet to rise above it as an offense and lead this team to victory. The Patriots had I'm taking out the last drive because that the last drive to me is last garbage time.
It's essentially garbage time. Yeah, the three drives that they had in the fourth quarter they went punt, punt, turnover on downs. In the fourth quarter, they gained fifty eight yards on thirteen plays, and forty of those yards were on a screen pass to Rumandre Stevenson, So that means that the other twelve plays went for eighteen yards in
that game. And I think we remember a lot in the Brady era about the Patriots mystique that, oh, they never made mistakes like that, right, Like, oh, they never would run into the punter, or they would always step out abound Hunter Henry at the two minute warning and preserve the clock, right, like they always made these I think on the whole, they made those decisions way more than maybe they are doing now, right, Like maybe it was almost a ninety percent lock that they would do
those things. But they didn't always play perfect. They didn't always have perfect games, but they won so many games because quite frankly, Brady would put the team on his back, right and Brady would lead them there. And I'm not putting it all on mac Jones, but I think a
lot of it is on mac Jones. And if they are going to compete with Buffalo tomorrow night, and this is sort of why I'm bringing this up and starting here, if they're going to compete with Buffalo tomorrow night, they are going to have to get that performance from mac Jones. They are not going to hold the offense to ten points. They are not going to dominate the Bills offense tomorrow night. The Bills offense is going to get theirs right. Right.
Maybe they can hope to make it less efficient, right, and maybe there's some turnovers mixed in there or something like that. But the Bills offense, I would say, realistically, is going to get to twenty seven points. Twenty seven is where they got last week against Detroy despite having a few snaffoos, right, despite having a few turnovers and brain farts in the red zone and things like that, they still got to twenty seven. Can you score twenty eight?
Can you score thirty? Right? Can you outscore them? Because right now the Patriots cannot have not shown I'm not gonna say they can't do it, because maybe they can in the future, but as of right now, they have shown us that they can't do it. Well, they just score twenty six, so they're gonna need twenty eight. They're gonna need twenty eight, all right, Fine, can they hit another field goal? A couple things about what you just said.
We've talked about this before, and I've said that when you know, we throw these terms around, good team, great team, whatever. A bad team can't win, a good team can win. Games their way, Right, a great team can win games multiple ways, or a great team can win games multiple ways. An elite team can win games anyway. And I think where the Patriots are right now, they can win games their way. They can win defensive games right, low scoring games.
They're trying to get from that good to that great column. It's kind of essentially what you're saying exactly. I don't disagree with your overall points on the offense. I don't think it applies to last week a ton just because I yes, they weren't great in the fourth quarter, but man, they gave that. When your defense is built the way it is, that should be enough. The offense doesn't exist
in a bubble, right. I just think complimentary football, right for the for the for the offense to have the performance it had, the defense should be able to clean up. I would come back at you, you know, where was the turnover late in the game, Where was the pressure
on Kirk Cousins, any of that? When the Patriots have won these kinds of games, the kind of game even going back to some of the later Brady years we called darn harmon the closer for a reason, right, because the defense would come up at the end of the game and force that one big turnover that would end it, and that wasn't there. They let the Vikings score ten points in the fourth quarter and have a big drive late in the game that ran out the clock. I'm
not saying the offense was perfect. They weren't. They weren't, But I think your point could be better made about, honestly, even a win. Go back to the Jets game, right, That's a game where I'm more like, yeah, they won and it was great, but man, you needed something more from the offense in that one. I just feel like you can only win a game with your defense right now, right, And this is the big problem to me is that you know you're saying it should have been enough, but
on that day, it wasn't enough. Right, So on that particular day what you are expected why but because complimentary football,
Why wasn't it enough? Because you are affecting the defense to be not I won't use the word perfect, but you were expecting the defense to be good every single week, and in this league, you're not going to be good every single the way this defense is played this year, and I know people point out the good quarterbacks versus the bad quarterbacks whatever, they should not allow thirty three points to Kirk Cousins. That to me is the bigger
issue here. I got backup left, Hime. I disagree because I just think that some weeks you're just not going to be on your a game, like you know, for the Patriots. Here's the whole point, right, And when we say that about the offense, No, the offense is bad. The offense has been bad all year, right, and the offense at some point the offense needs to needs to
hold its end of the bargain. That's my point, right, And I think the biggest thing is is that when you start to I'm not going to do the whole schedule thing and stuff like that, but when you start to break down, how does this Patriots team make the playoffs? Yeah? I think they have to get to ten wins, right, which means that they have to go four and two in the last six games of the season to get to ten wins. We are not going to win four games out of this six with this schedule on all
on the back of your defense. Not in this league, not in twenty twenty two, not with Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase coming in here in a couple of weeks and two and the Dolphins coming in here and Buffalo coming in here and then traveling to Buffalo, Like, you're just not going to win the games on the back of the defense without the offense winning are stealing or whatever term you want to use a game every once in a while, And this this is I think a two year trend now at the Patriots two like this
goes back to Max's rookie season as well, and it goes back to twenty twenty two, but I kind of throw twenty twenty out. You look at the last two years. This is the only way that they win football games. And if you're that one dimensional, then you're an eight
win team. Then you're good. You're not, You're a good not great team, right And in order for them to get where they need to get, and and for in order honestly, in order for me to be totally sold on mac Joe is the future, like as the franchise quarterback that we all want him to be. I gotta see. Things didn't go well defensively, the special teams made a few mistakes, but it didn't matter because mac Jones led them to a win. He doesn't have a win like that.
He just doesn't. He should have against He should have two against Dallas and Tampa last year. Dallas, to me too, is the same thing. Dallas. He throws a pick six and then he comes back the next play and throws a touchdown. If he doesn't throw a pick six, Alex, then they're not in the hole to begin with, the only reason why they're all out, then it all that's out.
I still don't I still don't think that that was that was And also let's not forget they had the possession in overtime where they had the ball now that Nelson Agler draw or was hell sure he dropped it, but and they could have gone for it on fourth down. To be honest too, I think it was like fourth and three or fourth right, But they didn't lead. They didn't. He had the opportunity to lead the drive in overtime
and they didn't. And again I'm not just putting it all on Mac like the whole offense, right, But but this is my point. You're saying you want to see this for Mac, and I'm telling you have seen it. This is the whole. This is just one example of the whole conversation that exists around Mac Jones. Right now, you have seen it in the sense that Mac has done what you're asking him to do. The ultimate result isn't what you wanted to be, but that's due to
factors outside of Mac jones control. I guess, man, we just can't keep making these excuses. You're right. Look, eventually you need to start winning games. You're right. But I've said this before on this show. I'll say it again. Mac Jones is not in the top three lists of reasons Mac Jones has struggled this year. I don't disagree with that, and I think that same concept applies to what we're talking about here again the Minnesota game. It's
funny we're having this argument now. I actually think that there is some validity to the argument you're making. I just think the Minnesota game is the best example of it. I think the Minnesota game is the perfect example of it because the defense did not play particularly well. That yes, they probably should have played better against primetime Kirk Cousins, no doubt about it, but they did it. They in the kicking game. Let me let me, let me turn
around on you. Then, why is it you need to see Mac play well when the defense doesn't play well, I would argue because I need Mac to pick up the rest of the team. I would, I would. I would be more interested in seeing because this is a
defensive minded team. And even outside of maybe two or three years, defensive minded team in the league that is all about the last two or three years, even or the last twenty years, except for maybe two or three even when Brady was here, it is a defensive As long as Bill Belichick is the head coach, this is going to be a defensive minded football team that I want to be able to see them extend leads. I want to see when the defense is on, like look
at the Jets game. I want to see them be able to pull away in that kind of game, not have a ten you know, a ten point come down to the wire. I've seen map before. Yes, I've seen them pull away from mediocre like I mean against I mean against a good team. Okay, I mean, but I just don't think that it's realistic. Again again down it is gonna come in here and drop an egg. But but not. It's not a Buffalo point. It's just a general point. You want to see Mac Jones play well
against a good team. I want to see Mac Jones win a high scoring game. He has not won a game where the opposition scored twenty five points. Okay, So here when here's my point, Mike, and it's kind we're kind of arguing two sides of the same argument. But my bigger point is that's the story of our lives. Right. When is the last time the Patriots as a whole, like put Mac Jones aside, Yes, when's the last time they played a complete game offense, defense, special teams? We
walked away from it all three units. Hey, that went well against not the Jaguars. I was gonna say Cleveland, So I guess that doesn't count. Okay, But they've been few and far between the last three years because I think that other teams get paid too, and you're just not gonna walk all over teams like Buffalo Like you're just not gonna walk all over teams on the road, Minnesota on all over him. That's why you want them to dominate in all three phases. You're not gonna do that.
You can, you can play well in all three phases and not can the quarterback win a game for you? Can? He can? He put the team on his back. He had adversity on Thursday night. There's no doubt about it. The special teams gave up a kick return touchdown, Pierre Strong ran into the punter. The defense gave up twenty six points. Okay, he had to win a game. Thirty six, thirty three came up short. It's not like twenty sixteen anymore.
You can win games. You're getting mad at me for being like behind the eight ball and how the NFL works, right because quarterback, quarterback, quarterback. Yeah, let me ask you this, the hot team, the real hot team in the NFL right now, they're talking about him right behind us here on ESPN, the San Francisco forty nine ers. How many
of those games is Jimmy Garofolo really won? Okay, but the San Francisco forty nineties have Deebo Samuel and Christian McCay and George You're right, good, right, But but all I'm saying is, right there, you can win games by just all three units showing up, and it's been few like but okay, okay, okay, I agree with you. I agree with your point that they can win games with all three units showing up. You're not gonna win every game like that. You're not gonna get all three units
a well oiled machine. Special teams play as well defense here. No, it's not, it is no, it's not. Alex. Did the defense play well in the second half against Kansas City in the AFC Championship game in twenty eighteen, they'se gave up thirty points, But you know, you know who played freaking well, Brady. He put the team on his bed. But this is the You need all of it, You need all of it. It's it's okay, and win the defense.
On Thursday night against the Vikings, when the defense picks off Kirk Cousins in the first half and Jonathan Jones return to the seventeen yard like they wore, they need to score there. You're right, they need to score there. You're right, You're you're right. But it's just it's it's more so it's less Mack that I'm frustrated with, and more so what's going on in the margins, right, It's the penalty point is is that the that winning on the margins every time you go out there is hard.
Every time you go out on the field. If you can't have any dumb well, every time you go out there as hard. I don't want him to play well every time. I wanted to play well once and he did just play well for three quarters. For three quarters, he played well. Okay, I want him to go. I don't need him to play I don't need him to win every single game for them. Okay, I don't need him to be Patrick Mahomes right where he goes out there and you win every single game because Patrick Mahomes
is your quarterback, right, I don't need that. But every once in a while, when the defense is having an off game, right, it's like if you're I'm gonna crossports, if you roll your ace out there in baseball and he gets knocked around a little bit, you're surprised, right, You're like, oh wow, Like you know, justin Verlander gave up five runs this this game. That's surprising. That's not justin Verlander's game, Right, We're not used to that. Let's go out there and score six, right, Like, is that
that's where we're getting at here? Where that is the that has eluded this team, that has eluded this team, That when the defense over the last two years, and the defense hasn't carried the team to the winners circle, and all the stuff on the details and on the margins that everybody talks about. To me is what you were talking about earlier. That's that good teams need all
that to go right. They need every call they need, they need not to commit dumb penalties when they're in the two minute drill, the quarterback needs to throw the ball away instead of taking a sack to preserve time because they need every second of the game, they need every scoring opportunity to go correctly. And this team is in that position. And that's why last year they were ten and seven beating up on bad teams. This year
there's six and five beating up on bad teams. Is because when the good teams come in here, you need to actually be able to be better than just the oh, well, we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot team, or if you do shoot yourself in the foot, you have to be able to overcome in But that's how many teams in the league. That's two or three teams in the league are that good. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. I think that there are teams.
I think that a lot of playoff teams are like that. I think a lot of good playoff teams are like that, and right now, that's what you want to be the super Bowl this year especially, I think it's all about what's going on in the margins. There's a handful of teams, and yes, one of them is coming in this in tomorrow. But this Buffalo team is eight and three and they don't play well in the margins at all. Exactly interceptions, and there's still eight and three. But Mac Jones isn't
Josh Allen one because he throws less interceptions. But there's other reasons as well. Mac Jones isn't Josh Allen. So if you're a big complaint is Mac Jones isn't Josh Allen, I don't know what to tell you that. No, my big complaint is not that Mac Jones isn't Josh Allen because Josh Allen. I know you're gonna you have your chance to talk about Josh Allen, but Josh Allen is on a different level. Okay, I'm not asking Mac Jones
to win every single game. I'm asking him every once in a while when the Belichick stuff doesn't go well, right, when the defense doesn't play well, when they don't play sound in or you know, they're undisciplined and they take these dumb penalties and all this stuff doesn't go well. All right, he's got to be able to rise up and help the team propel the team forward. And on
Thursday night he played lights out. And I'm gonna give him some compliments here now, because I think he deserves something. He played lights out for three quarters, reading the field, seeing the open guys, coverage, manipulation with his eyes, with pump fakes in the pocket third down, even though there were only three for ten. I thought he made some good plays on thward down as well in the second half, like some really good quarterbacking from Mac Jones in this game.
The throw that he made, the two downfield throws, the one to Dowson Agalore between the two safeties. Everyone can look at that play and then go watch the player that Josh Allen hit digs on to set up the field goal against Detroit. It's the same coverage, it's the same route, and Mac rifles it in there just the same as Josh Allen does. Right, Like there's a great
throw though, a deep ball to DeVante Parker. Great ball, great ball, And I thought some of His situational stuff was pretty good too, in terms of, you know, more management game, you know, to the sticks, types of throws, you know, not necessarily the downfield bombs, some really really high level quarterbacking for three quarters. Probably in my mind, especially given the spot that you're actually playing a good team on the road, I think that that was probably
his best three quarters in the NFL. I did so. I guess here's where we differ and and we're not gonna it's just Is Winders. We're gonna disagree on this. We are. You're talking about it like the Patriots made some mistakes that every team makes, and they just couldn't. You know, every team he could. Every team gives up one thirty nine and nine catches to Justin Jefferson. Every team does, every team does. But no, but but but
but what just did it? They just did it. I'm talking about the punt return or the kickoff return, those penalties, like it was just that was a lot that was not your basic overcome. A couple of mistakes that Patriots played horrible situational football in that game. Four defensive penalties, the punt block penalty. Such brains two drives about what I for twenty years, everybody made such a big deal at a situational football and no penalties and the clean
Patriots they never beat themselves. Do you know what? They had damn good players. And I'm not just talking about Tom Brady, Okay, they had damn good players. Well, you know, I first good about a lot of those players. They didn't make those kind of mistakes. They were also just that's part of all make them good. I just think that if you were only gonna win football games like that, you're not going to get in the playoffs this year. You're not gonna get enough wins because for all the
other stuff to work out perfectly for you. I just don't think there's enough games on your schedule to win in that and just in that formula, right, Like, if that's the formula, it's the defense, it's special teams, it's the offense not beating themselves do that. But it's can I think I think your ceiling is what because they did that last year? Right, So the ceiling is ten wins and out in the wild card. Right. But but
here here's the thing. They they invest so much in that stuff, right, and look, they had some massive moments last year that killed them in terms of bad situational football and making late miss Like, don't think they were ten and seven because this was all perfect last year. Now suddenly this year it's bad. It wasn't the ceiling last year could have been higher if they got some
of this stuff right. When you invest as much as you do in special teams, both when you invest as much as you do time wise in the little things, which I think is great, you need to get them right though, you need to get them right. Yeah. Look, I think that they were both right in a way. But I just again I will keep reiterating how it's frustrating to watch a team that can only win one way.
And I just think if you're that, if you're that type of team, it's kind of like your Titans, right, Like they also are in the same boat, right where they have one way they can where they have one way, and how did it go in the playoffs? They have one way that they can win a football game, right, and in order to for this Patriots team to go four and two in the last six, which I think is what they need to do to make the playoffs, and then I would also piggyback that on in order
to go on a run, a real run. In the playoffs, you have to be able to win games multiple ways. And I go back to that eighteen run because I think everybody points to thirteen to three in the Super Bowl, and Perlo is always on this too. Thirteen to three in the Super Bowl is how they won. They won because they because they won in Kansas City, right Like, that's how they won. And so you're gonna have different
types of games in the playoffs. Some games are gonna be thirteen to three, Some games are gonna be shootouts, some games are gonna be somewhere in between, right, Like, that's gonna be how you have four games to glory now, because only one team gets to buy. And if you're gonna get there, you're gonna have to be able to play different You're gonna have to have different fighting styles, right like, you have to be able to win fights in different Again, there's not a lot of teams that
can do that. What what you're what you're And yes it's again I'll say bad teams can't win. Good teams have a way to win. Great teams of multiple ways to win. Elite teams can win anyway. How many teams in the league right now, are truly great? How many teams can win a game in multiple like it's not a long list, that's not and it's not the longest list ever, I think, And it's a shorter list this year than it is other years. I agree with you.
I think that, and I know this that people don't want to hear this, and I feel a little cringey saying it, but I'm gonna say it. This is the second year of a rebuild. That's very few teams, if any, or elite it. Like I've said this for the window. I don't want them to be elite at everything. I just want them until they win a game, and look, until they win a game in the thirties. Right. As dumb as this sounds, I don't think you need to be elite in the way I'm describing it. To win
a Super Bowl, right, you need to be great. I don't think you need to be elite, like in the sense that if you get the right matchup, you teams can beat teams that are better for than them, right if if the matchup works the right way. We see that all the time in the NFL. I just think where they're at right, like next next year is supposed to be the great year. Year three with the with the draft pick quarterback is where it's all really supposed
to turn on. I guess at this point I'm not it's concerning, but I'm not over concerned that they can't win these kinds of games because I think there's still one more year of what should be significant improvement on the way. And again it goes back to, you know, why can Josh Allen win these games this way when he makes all these mistakes because he has like a guy like Stefan. He's a guy likes Stefon Diggs who can erase those mistakes in one play? Right, Why can
Bills the Bills Lions? To watch Bills Lions in the morning and then watch the Patriots sputter out offensively and the a and the late game on Thanksgiving was a perfect It was perfect rightly, because the Bills in that Lions game got outplayed for like, yeah, forty what was
the difference at the end? They they Josh Allen, Stefan Diggs, right, and look why the Bengals actually play like kind of sloppy football, but they can overcome it because when Joe Burrow can hit Jamar Chase on a one play touchdown. It increases that margin fair so much because it extends the game. And then we'll talk about this when we get in the game plan and like that guy's not here. That guy's not here, and Matt can be better on his own, but they don't. Who's the guy that's eracing
mistakes here? Yeah? You know, And I think and that's why I don't want to make this just the Mac thing, because that's pretty much all I'm saying. It's not like because people hear what you're saying and they take it to Mac Jones isn't the guy, right, they take it to it's time to go back in the quarterback Harisel and back to the draft and let's start talking with it. Like that's all I'm pushing back on because I and I'm not pretty sure I know you know that, but
I'm pushing back on, like the pick. This is not the team, this is not the core for the next five ten years that they're just gonna go try to win with it. It shouldn't be that they're just gonna go try to win with this group. They're projective anywhere from fifty two hundred million dollars in salary cap next year, four top one hundred picks. Like, we'll see you ultimately what happens. But that's w is Like there's still this isn't there's still room to grow for this offense. Sure,
this team needs to get off the margins. Right. They've been on the margins for for three years. And that's why they've been a five hundred football team since Brady left, because young teams are on the margins. That's what happens. All right, let's get to some of these calls, and then I want to get into the bills. Scott, thanks for hanging on with us. Scott, how you doing? I think we might have lost him. He was on for
like an hour. If he wants to call back, Scott, you can call back and we'll we'll get you on the air. Patty and Aguham, how are you doing? Patty? Going on? Guys? Hey, So just to you know, go a little bit off topic. Is it too early to talk to draft? It's not too early to talk draft, Patty, But I will admit that if we go that direction, then I have another rant and I'm gonna end up going on. But go ahead, Patty. I just wanted to get because I know, I know Alex wosn't do a
lot of guys. Um, I just wanted to throw three names at you. And they're all still positioned guys, So it might be like a little bit fun if he's looked up on these guys. But m bart definitely has guys. Dave Flowers out of Boston College, second guy wide receiver Jalen Hyatt out of Tennessee. And the guy that I find pretty intriguing even though his production doesn't wouldn't tell you so is Darnell Washington's not at Georgia's a big
tight end. I wanted to see what you guys thought about guys and yeah, just you know when you guys think about him. Yeah, we got it, Patty, Thank you so much. Appreciate the call. Uh all right, so Za Flowers, I've seen a little bit a local guy. I want to see how he tests because his general athletic profile scares me a little bit, right Like, I don't see
an overly explosive, fast, you know athlete out there. I see a guy that wins a lot of contest more stuff fast, Yeah, like that guy from Purdue, David Bell, was it he's faster. David Bell, He's not as big. He more to me is kind of like and you know, I get obsessed with these players every year. You know, Kidarius Tony and then Juan Dale Robinson. You think he's like that. He's not quite as fast, but he's maybe more shifty. Okay, that's another guy where like those guys
are explosive. He's gonna need a test really well. Yeah, like you said to me, it's um, he reminds me a lot of And we do this every year. We tier players, right, Like there's the same mold of players, the first round guy, second round guy. Um, Jordan Addison at USC Yeah, I like him too, right, So Za Flowers is like, if you don't get Jordan Addison, you want that kind of players. A Flowers is probably like fringe top one. Yeah, Jordan Addison, So I like him.
The Patriots traditionally aren't very interested in those kinds of guys. Yeah, maybe that changes this year. Um, but we'll see. Jalen Hiatt's a really interesting one because he torched Alabama. I mean he torched Alabama. So you know he's getting the thumbs up. When Bill goes and ask Sabe and what about this guy was the issue? Like just a monster day. Um. He reminds me of Taikwon a little bit fast. Guy's big,
not huge, but he's big. He can move. He's a little bit uh you know, he's a junior, but he's he's gonna be twenty two by the time next season starts. He's it's another guy. We're like, if he runs a four four, he's probably like a fringe top one hundred pick. If he can get like a high four two, low four three, he maybe starts to push his stock little bit. The Patriots obviously like guys like him. They just took Taekwon. And this is, by the way, all very poliminary. I
haven't done a super deep dive. It's just the initial read. But I don't like it feel a little redundant. Now they drafted. They've made such picks before. They drafted Anthony Jennings and Ronnie Perkins in back to back years, similar players, So that doesn't rule it out. But Jaalin Hyatt Tennessee certainly in name for Patriots fans to know. Now Darnell Washington the tight end out of Georgia, so he loses a lot of attention. They have two tight ends who
are going to be first round picks. There's Brock Bowers, but he's not draft eligible yet. He's a true sophomore. Darnell Washington's number zero if you're watching the games, six eight, two sixty five, and he can move up. Until this point, they really only used him as a blocker. They've started using him as a receiver this year and he's been pretty good. Now, there's a lot of good receivers on Georgia.
He's not getting a ton of coverage attention, obviously, but he's one of those guys, right He's twenty five catches for four hunt or three yards. He's one of the those guys that you watch him move and you don't understand how a guy that big moves that well. Really, when I watch him, I'm not sure how much of Like he's never going to be like an explosive down the field threat. But and we've talked a lot about the red zone with this team. Yeah, and this is a guy at six eight that you can run scheme
touch plays with. Kind of He's almost like, I just don't know back right, I just don't know where the room on the roster is for another tight end. Because Johnny Smith is going to be here when right, That's what I was building too, is yeah, if john HU Smith and to me, he's more of a John U. Smith comp than a Hunter Henry Camp. Yeah. Also, he's projected to be a borderline first round pick right now. Yeah,
so I don't know that they're investing that. But if Johnny Smith is in the last year of his deal, would be all over this. I don't He's a great football player. And at the end of the day, I say this all time. At the end of the day, the drafts about adding talented football players to your roster. But yeah, it's really hard to see where he fits.
Given right, if you take him in the fifth round and you sit him for a year and then those tight end contracts are up perfect and there's guys like that who's that are called Patty, Yes, Patty, keep an eye out for m Luke Schoonmaker for Michigan because or Cameron Latt too Malabama. Those are similar players you can get later sit and then they come in in year two where you're gonna have to draft Darnel Washington. He needs to play year one. I like high it a
lot from Tennessee. I think he's a good player, but I worry about usage with him. And if look who's their offensive coordinator, right, because the coach is a defensive guy, right, he's a saving Josh Eifel. Yeah, let me pull it up real quick. Their offensive coordinator, he's got it going on. That guy knows what he's doing, and he gets hired a lot of free releases, stacks, bunches, you know, things like that, and they get a lot of free release so that he can use that speed right down the field.
So the other thing that's going to be interesting offense About all the Tennessee guys we talk about, and I know you want to move on, I'm just I'll leave you with this now. Yes, and I'll find out who the offensive coordinator is. A guy named Alec Golisch. He's in his second year. Spent a lot of time at Illinois. So there you go. M I the one thing about Tennessee you talk about this a lot with Ohio State. The offense they run is so different. It's very unique.
And yes, I think that's sort of what I was getting at. I think Tennessee's offense actually will be in the NFL. I think that that's a that's a development. That's one of those like RPOs right the way they really and when I say spread the field, I mean there's guys on each sideline. They make you defend every blade of grass east to west that's coming to the NFL. Like, that's something NFL teams are going to use. It has some arraid elements too, it does, but right now, that's
a that's a pretty stark adjustment. All right, Sean and Vancouver. Sean, thanks for hanging on. How you doing good? You know, I don't have any expectations, or I haven't had any expectations for the Patriots to beat the Bills make the playoffs this year. I'm looking for growth and there's like three specific things that I'd like to add. I like the way the offense has improved the last week especially.
I liked them to add a couple of things like Klan Thornton, maybe put them in motion, let him try and build with his team, and also score touchdown in the red zone. On offenses that I'm looking for, we saw Marcus Jones replaced Miles Bryant returning kicks and punts. I'd like to see him replace them. And on defense as well, see him do some of the Nickel coverage, especially with Mackenzie coming up. Yeah, it's a good point, Sean, and when we we were going to get to here.
Thanks for the call on Buffalo is how they match up and how they're going to match up defensively. The point first point quickly, I think the red zone conversation is interesting and how they get things going there. I wish I could sit here and say, like, this is the problem with their red zone offense, right, but it's really a collection of several different things that are happening in Each individual sequence or individual play kind of has its own issues, right, Like it's kind of hard to
just pick them out. I think protection has hurt them in third down situations where they haven't really held up on deeper third downs in the red zone so that Mac really has a chance to throw the football down on the field and those spots, and play calling I think is also rears its head. And maybe even play design in general just having unique designs down in the
red area has kind of alluded them as well. But to get to Buffalo, because I really do want to, I can I make one point on the red zone real quick, because this is something I've noticed really going back to twenty twenty and the Cam Newton year, as much as we talk about them struggling in the red zone, and they do, they're actually pretty good. Like inside the three. Yeah, if they can get the ball inside the three, they whether I guess Damian Harris is hurt, but Ramond Ray
or whoever. Going back to twenty twenty with Cam, they just pound the ball in the end zone like, pretty good at that unless they run it out of shotgun, unless they were The issue has been getting the ball inside the three. And it's almost to the point where I watched them and again this goes back to last year. How many times have they thrown the ball just into the end zone? How many times is the ball in the air crossed the goal line? It almost feels like
they're they're in their own heads about it. Where all right, we know we can score from inside the three, so let's just focus on getting inside the three and then go from there. Right, And it's almost compounding the issue, right, it's making it worse, they see him, right, because the issue isn't from the five and in it's from like the five to like the twenty five. Right, So I just I want to see them be more aggressive. I think that's the issue. They're trying to do it so
incrementally in the red zone. Right, we're gonna get from the twenty of the fifteen, fifteen to the ten, the ten to the five, the five to three and then HB dive and we score. Right, just throw the ball in the end zone from the fifteen yard long like that's that to me is the biggest thing where attack from the high red zone and don't even worry if you get down to the one, great awesome, don't eat like that. Shouldn't the plan should just be get the ball in the end zone. Yeah, no, I'm with you
one hundred percent. I think a lot of the good offense, I hate to keep phrasing it like that, but a lot of the elite offenses that you see around in the league to attack the end zone from either the fringe red zone or the high red zone more than anything else. Right there, if you look at a lot of these offense, we'll look at the Bills. The Bills suck in the red zone, so they've decided to just
skip it. And that's from the twenty five, right, and that's exactly what Bill Belichick said at the podium yesterday when you or maybe it was on on Monday or Sunday or what I have, whatever day it was. Uh, if we can skip the red zone like we did a few times against Minnesota, then that's good too, right, And and I think that's where we're at with them as well, is shot plays from the high red zone or the fringe read zone, whatever frame the terms you want to use, like those I think need to become
their best friends. All right, Eldred, what's going on? Hey? Hen everybody? How y'all doing? Hey good? How are you? Yes, sir? Earlier you earlier you see about flitting his zones against Buffalo? Yes, full safety. So I wonder who do you take off the field? You use the full safety five corners or three or whatever, three corners, two linebackers, will you take off the field? Yeah? Good question is thanks for asking, because I will. We keep on trying to talk about Buffalo,
We keep getting away from Buffalo. So this is I my thing with this game with the Bills, my big thing with the Bills, and it starts on defense, and I think it also pertains a lot to the offense too. Clearly, what you did in the two games last year to the end of last year, which were the win game. You gotta throw out like the win game doesn't count. The two games that counted were the game the day after Christmas and maybe a little bit the playoff game. But really the game that I focus on is the
middle one. That the middle one is the one because remember in the playoffs, I mean DeVante Bosby's out there. Yeah it was, it was, Yeah, it was in that game too. You just you were happy to be there. They were focused to try to go on a run. And it looked like two teams that were in totally different mindsets going into that game. I felt it. I think I texted you about it from the press box and I could fill the energy on the Buffalo sideline and their warm up was just so different than the
Patriots energy and focus. So let's go. I want to go off the Week sixteen game last year because to me, that's the game, right, that's the game. This game is gonna most mimic, I guess is the way to put it. Sure, And that game what got you beat is that you just played your brand of defense right, like you played your early down zone stuff, and then he played man on third down, and they killed you in man coverage. Isaiah McKenzie versus Miles Bryant j C versus Stefon Diggs.
It wasn't it wasn't a fair fight, right, They just killed you in those situations. I think this is a big Belichick game to me because for twenty years, we talked earlier about all of them. The other stuff that bugs me right about the Belichick mystique, But the one thing that's been absolutely true is that for twenty years and big games, Bill Belichick has always had something up his sleeve. He has always had a creative plan. And I go back to the eighteen run because I think
it's a good one. In the eighteen AFC Championship game against Kansas City, they were eighty percent man coverage. They played man coverage with the whole game. And then they go to the Super Bowl and they played nothing but zone coverage against the Ramps. Right. Like those types of week to week game plan type of teams, This Patriots defense I think has the talent and the depth to be that. Like. I think they can go week to
week and change it up if they have to. They've also had an entire off season to get ready for this game, like everything you did in the off season, both from like you know, coaching and kind of going over yourself and scouting yourself and figuring out how to get better and all that kind of stuff from a coaching perspective, and although it might not be these splash moves, I think from a personnel perspective, the mac Wilson's of the world, the Jabriel Peppers, like, those guys are the
two young corners, the rookie corners. Those guys are work here because that's where you were deficient against Buffalo. You didn't have enough speed at linebacker. Your corners were getting
beaten man coverage. So you went out and you got different guys, right, So in this game, I want to see one of those Belichick game plans that film nerds like me on Friday breakdown and are like, look at what Bill did against Josh Allen, like this is incredible, right, and to put my Bill hat on for a second and think really outside the box and away from their
typical structure. A four safety dime package is sort of what I've landed on, right, So I think you gotta get the safeties on the field because those guys can cover, and they can obviously tackle, and that's the biggest thing is tackling. And if you're gonna play for safety, to Aldred's point, okay, who are you taking off the field? So I would play for safety dime, which means you only have two true corners on the field. So your corners are probably gonna be Jonathan Jones and Jayleen Mills.
So that means that the guy coming off the field, surprise, surprise, is Miles Bryant, right, And I would roll those four safeties and I would play all different types of zone against him, right like I would really in the dial of zone coverages, play some three, play some four, play some two, maybe play some six like it just completely try to blur those zone lines completely. And but most of the time I would try to keep two safeties up up right, because you don't want to get the
big place. If I'm the Patriots, if Buffalo runs the football, like every single Devin Singletary handoff to me is a victory, right like if you like go ahead, It's kind of like how they used to play Peyton Manning, right like, if you want to hand it off to no Sean Moreno forty times in this game, go for it, go
right ahead. So that's how I feel about them. Defensively, you look at the Buffalo stats and as you would probably expect if you play post safety, like if you play one in three against them, one is obviously man forget it, like you know, like it's just it's a death sentence. And that's exactly what they did last year. Now,
the other big part of my master plan here. You got a pass rush, right and I'm not talking about the mush rush like trash compactor, like push the pocket and contain no no, no, no no. You have to get after Josh Allen like I want to see Matthew Judeon and Dietrich Wise and Josh j pin their ears back and pressure Josh Allen because I think the two
biggest things that kill you with Josh Allen. I think the biggest thing that kills you, honestly is one thing, and that is when he's able to hold the football and just turn it into a playground game, right, Like he's so good on extended plays, he's so good with his legs, he's so good outside the pocket. So what I want to try to make him do is make decisions whether he's throwing or he's taking off, just decide to do something like don't let him just sit there
and dictate the terms of the game. You have to force him into things. And that's why I think zone would help, because if he takes off, then fine, then you just come up, you rally to the football, and you make the tackle. So that's the number one. Number two. If they wanted to play some man, which I'm sure they will, mac Wilson or if it's Jabriel, maybe it's Gabriel, but I think it will end up probably being mac
Wilson just because of the size of Josh Allen. I think asking Jabriel Peppers to tackle Josh Allen one on one is a tall task for a two hundred and twenty pounds safety. So maybe it's mack Wilson, but you obviously I think you got to have a dedicated spy. I do, yeah, so I I have some similar thoughts. Actually disagree with some of that. Um. The biggest thing is you can't, like you said, the Bills are gonna
get their's right, You're not gonna win every place. That's why I want them to be aggressive because maybe you will make some plays that way, right, like they might make some plays too, but at least you will make some play. So so, here's the thing about the Bills. The Bills are a globetrot or offense. And there it comes to his spiel about the Bills and how they're overrated. No yet, just do it. People mistake this for calling them overrated. It's wild. It's they're not perfect. The Bills
aren't perfect. There I said it. Okay, the Bills are not a perfect football team. What are you talking about? Are the Bills very good? Yes? They're not new the Bill. There's been teams like this book. Okay, what's your point. Here's my point. The Bills are gonna get theirs right. If you try to pick apart every single little play with the Bills want to do. They want to score quickly. They want to be on and off the field. One
play eighty yards to find digs. It's over. That's all they want to do, and they're very good at it, and when you let them do it, they will kill you. You have to take that away. You have to make them methodically march their way down the field. There's two reasons for that. One. They turn the ball over a lot. It's not just Josh Allen. Those receivers fumble, they turn the ball over a lot. At some point they're gonna give one to you, and the Patriots have to capitalize.
But that's what they tried to do last year. There's not all right, all right, all right. The other thing is they're not good in the red zone. They struggle because again they want that deep shot, and the deep SHOT's not there in the red zone. It's almost a twofold thing. Something you said that I agree with his huge is if Josh Allen, if they're running the ball, you win. I think that even applies to Josh Allen
scrambling inside the twenty two, inside the tent. I think people way overreact to him scram I would I agree with you. I would just don't give him that deep shot. If he's gonna run for fifteen yards from the forty five to the thirty. Yeah happened, Oh well, so be it. That's a wine. But but the thing you have to do is once you get in the red zone, that mentality flips. Josh Allen's turn over to interception ratio or touchdown interception ratio on the red zone is almost one
to one. It's eight to seven. Once you get in the red zone, then it becomes about making him throw the football because he can't or he struggles throwing the football in those tight windows. As good as Josh Allen is and then he can finish. He is as a runner as good as he is. He's averaging six point nine yards of carry, which leads the league. Yeah, he's a quarterback. Show he's averaging seven point nine yards per pass attempt. So it's still better to have him run, right,
But except in the red zone accepted. So that's why it almost has to you almost just hold on for dear life until you get down into the red zone. And if he turned last year. But here's the thing. When these teams step up and try to fight aggressive with aggressive, they get in your whole plan. Basically, your whole plan is predicated on the idea they can cover Stefon Diggs. Obviously the last couple of years they couldn't do that. Now this is where it's really interesting. J
Stevon Diggs had J. C. Jackson's number. He just did you see that? With matchups sometimes like Davante Parker had prime Stephon Gilmour's number. Remember Malcolm Butler used to lock up prime Antonio Brown, like every time they played. It was just one of those matchups that jac Jackson didn't have it. Jonathan Jones may or may not. We don't know, but I think he does too, because we'll see I
agree with you. I agree with you. Quickness. Yeah, Josh Allen's pass away and the run element is totally a factor here. But let's just take him as a passer for a second. Josh Allen's passer rating when he throws his Stefon Diggs is one twenty one and a half. Yeah, that's astronomical. That's massive. Josh Allen's passer rating throwing to everybody else is eighty nine. That's pedestrian. That's it's like, that's not It's not as stark as Kirk Cousins throwing
to Justin Jefferson versus everybody else. But in the big thing, of his eleven interceptions, ten have been targeting players other than Stefon Diggs. So good stats. You had. Your plan works as long as they can take Stefon Diggs away. But that's why I got a guy underneath him and a guy over there. But here's the thing. They had that on Justin Jefferson last week, and it didn't work every time. They played a lot of man though, I just think your plan works. Is a big picture thing.
But there's gonna be a certain they're gonna get. There's there's gonna be certain drives where you just have to don't let the big play beat you. Hold on for dear life, get down into the red zone and then make Josh Allen throw the ball in the red zone. I would be with you one hundred percent. And I the big play thing is obvious, right, like God, you
can't give up the big plays. But I think that and Bill said this yesterday about sitting there and watching him throw it, and that to me is what that is a little bit too much, right if you're just trying to get him to make mistakes. So let me just say, I think you're you're gonna be sad. I'm because I don't think he's gonna make as many as you want him. I'm still I wouldn't be so sure that he leads against us, not against you. I think against other teams. He's he's had some brain starts. I'm
talking he's got your number, right, and that's fair. I'm talking about the coverage. Yeah, your thing about the pass rush and go get him is true. You gotta hit him, you got to make him uncomfortable in the pocket. Yeah, I'm just saying, if, if, if you're gonna rush that aggressively and you're gonna try to jump routes and things like that, all he's gonna do is throw it over the top just to find dicks. No, I don't want to jump routes. I want to play really sound too
deep zone. So so here's here's my question for you. Because you say I'm mimicking the plan from last year, what I'm saying the plan from last year a little bit. Did the plan from last year not work because it was a bad plan or did it not work because they didn't execute it? Well? It didn't work because he had all day, all freaking day to throw. So answer my question. Did it not work because it was I think then, or did it not work because they didn't
execute it correctly? I don't know if the back end was necessarily a bad plan, the rush was a bad plan. So this is so, this is basically what I'm saying. I'm talking about the coverage. Yeah, you're like, and I also think that leaving Isaiah mckenn thing that was Yes, that was bad. When they drafted Marcus Jones, well that was going to be my last point. Yes, all of this is right. Get get on Josh Allen, make him uncomfortable,
takeaway the deep shot. That all works as long as he doesn't have the same option open repeatedly in the short and intermediate area of the field. Yeah, Myles Bryant struggled at the beginning of this season. He's had a good couple of months. But I learned one thing from those matchups last year. Said he does not have the foot speed to keep up with Isaiah McKenzie. They turned it into a foot rate. It wasn't this complicated scheme or anything like That field was faster than you. Not
your game, Miles. When they drafted Marcus Jones, Evan is he my first thought, me too, But is he ready? I He's shown me enough that I'm I'm willing to try it out and find out. My fear is that they won't get there until Isaiah McKenzie has already beat that drum like six times, right, Like I think he's that's fair. Yeah, and look, they didn't adjust out of it last year. Now, the personnel made it difficult to adjust. They didn't have these so many guys were hurt. That's
why I like their chances better this time. Marcus Jones has played sixty seven coverage snaps this year. He's been targeted six times. He's allowed to catch on two of those. Yeah, no, he's been fine. I I here, here's the Bills are better than the Patriots. There I said that the Bills are better than Patriots. You're gonna you're gonna have to take some risks to win this game. Would you disagree with that? If you're the Patriots, You're gonna have to
take some risks to win this game. That's seeing if Marcus Jones can cover Isaia McKenzie is a risky. Think it's a good risk to take as long as you're willing to adjust out of it if it doesn't work. But like, that's something to start the game. I want to see that because I think he might be up to it. And if he is up to it, it changes the dynamic. So I think we agree more than we disagree. But I think the biggest thing to me is that I think you're just scared of Josh Allen.
I'm not afraid of Josh Allen as much as I am afraid of Josh. The way that they played him last year allowed Josh Allen's raw talent to take over the game. And that's what that's what he can't do, right. So to me, what I think they need to do, and this is why I got into some of the
pressure stuff, which I think is key. So I would call him like fire zones right blitzay because I think, to me, what you need to do is make him beat you in structure, right, like when he has to hit the top of the drop and make a decision with the football, and because he's got a guy, you know, pressure coming at him and he's got to throw the football and he's not running around and he's not standing back there for six hours every single time he drops
back the past like you need that. If they can win, if they can get him to make the majority of his throws and that two point five to three second range, right, then I think they have a really good chance to hold up in struct And I guess what I'm saying is I think and again we're just talking about that matchup here last year because the playoff game was different. So many guys are hurt. I think they were maybe
closer to that last year than people realized. But because Isaiah McKenzie was so constantly open as a quick outlet, the rest of it just didn't show up. And that's not to excuse it again. This all you have to cover isa McKenzie's time. He just but that that was the game that Stefan Dicks had the least impact. They were able to take him away, and there were a couple of moments in that game where Josh Allen panics.
Remember he threw one right to Jase Jackson at the end of that game in a five point game that might have turned it. Yes, But for every time he was panicked, there were five times where he had that safety outlet and Isaiah McKenzie with nobody near him. And I don't know that Marcus Jones is blanking isa McKenzie, but Kenny at least forced Josh Allen to fit the ball into a window. He's got enough footspeed because we know he can run with That's the thing. Some of
those throws tri za mckenzion. Again, this is where I get criticized for being too harsh, but it's right. Go back and watch it. Some of those throws Isa McKenzie had to go get They weren't They weren't horrible throws, but they weren't necessarily right between them, he made one throw on a crossing route, just one nice throw. Yes, but no some of those some of you remember McKenzie had to go up on the jump ball, there was one.
He had a couple. But Isam McKenzie's also like five to seven, So a jump ball for him is you know, not necessarily. But you're taking as a guy that is not very tall. By the way, I'm not taking any shot. You're talking about forcing Josh Allen to play in structure. Yes, isn't part of that forcing him to fit the ball into windows? Yeah? They didn't do that last year. How often last year when he's throwing, say McKenzie, did he have to fit the ball into a window. That's fair.
I also think you can bat him right, Like I think that some of the interceptions that I've seen on his tape recently are because he's so damn greedy, Like he thinks that there's not a single throw on the planet that he's don't think react quarterback. He just thinks that there's he just thinks his arm strength is going to get the ball into every window right right, So there's instances there where if you can close those zone gaps,
then you can get some plays on the ball. All right, we got two more callers and then we got to wrap it up. All right, spee, let's go twelve rounds. What do you got? Great? No, you guys are you guys are killing it today. This is an excellent discussion. I love I love Myles Bryan on the bench and uh, you know, think that'll be that'd be great. No, it's thoughts.
I wanted to get back to stuff that you guys were talking about earlier because I was oddly kind of agreeing with everything that Evan was saying and kind of disagreeing with Alex pretty good across the part. But like I was thinking about, um, you know, Alex, your net neutral idea. Yeah, and I want to and this is just better suited for this show than pictures Unfilder, because
it's kind of a data driven thing. Like a while ago, I went back and looked on over the cap for just at at cap costs and cash costs for all the quarterbacks in nineteen ninety one through twenty twenty one, and if there's just an overwhelming theme when you look at all these so like, um, you have to have for the Super Bowl winning team is what I'm talking about. Sorry, I wasn't cleared. So basically, you need to have a quarterback who's either Hall of Famer or borderline hall of
Famer on a team friendly deal. So like, only twenty three percent of those quarterbacks super Bowl wining quarterbacks were top five in league in cap and only thirty two percent we're top five in cash. So I just think that you're you're I mean, if this is this kind of harkens back to your discussion earlier today with Evan, where I think Evan was just knit completely right. Like
you look at a mac Jones. Do you need him to be somebody who's gonna pull the team up by the bootstrops from the fourth quarter at some point to
win it all? You need a quarterback who can do that. Well, you're preaching to the choir here, spe I think that that's I think we're Alex and I, or maybe I didn't explain myself articulate myself as the best is I'm not expecting him to do that every game right, But when the when when things go poorly like they did on Thanksgiving night for the defense and for the special teams, the fact that that game is like almost like an automatic l at that point if we tell you that
that's exactly how the game is going to play out and the defense is not going to play very well, justin Jefferson's gonna go for nine for one thirty nine in a touch and special teams is going to give up a touchdown, and you're we all could have written the story before the game even started and say that they're gonna lose, and that that's the part that gets and I guess I just more more my point. No, I would just like, like to the point you're making. And I know this sounds like a cop out, but
averages don't mean anything to the individual, right. Most of those quarterbacks, like you said, so, I don't know what you defined as a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback, but a lot of you know, hall of Fame quarter caliber quarterback on a team friendly deal. There's been expensive quarterbacks that have won Super Bowls. There's been non Hall of Fame quarterbacks that have won. Telling you that most of the case, the times they are not as expensive as
as the other top quarterback in the league. So so you're saying it's more about contract than ability, which would back to my point about the Brady model. Think about the Brading model, right like, and that's and that basically, even though Brady is special, it is a unicorn. That model does generalize back in ninety ninety one. Right, So so you're green with that. But that agrees with my point. That makes my point, except except that it's not. These
are not in that neutral quarterback They're good. They're they're like Hall of Fame or Hall of Fame caliber quarterbacks who have basically allowed enough money to be spent elsewhere to be able to shore up. But so, so okay, so here's my point. So so this is where where we diverge. I'm I'm throwing my idea out as as the way the league is trending, not the way it's gone. There's no such thing as one give me one data point,
give me one data point. With the day the league trending that way, when zero quarterbacks who fit that description of bonus title, well, because it's trending that way, it doesn't happen. Yet here's what I here's what I would say, Well, all right, all right, hang on, here's what I would tell you. The concept of a good, affordable quarterback doesn't exist anymore. Every single deal these quarterbacks sign breaks some sort of record. It wasn't like that for a while.
It's been that way the last three four or five years. Right. The quarterback you're describing. The only way to get that quarterback now is going to be through the draft. Right, So that in essence sort of mat we're just discounting Matt Stafford, right, I'm not just I just also, is Matt Stafford is? Is Matt Stafford special? Yeah? I wouldn't put him in that. You're talking about Hall of Fame caliber quarterbacks. He led the league in picks last year.
I think Matt Stafford is a great example, honestly of what my point. Yeah, yet won a title for a team that didn't go He won a title for a team that was stacked, right, But he was affordable. He was like exactly, he was affordable. So all right, So I'm not saying it's him, right, I don't understand. Yeah, I'm I'm saying that he's a good don't know when did he sign that deal? When did he sign that deal.
He's a he's not allow he's a Hall of Famer, maybe because of his his inflated numbers by Matthew Stafford in twenty twenty one. No, my point is getting in Afford, like you can't draft a quarterback, develop and then signed him in Like, if you have a good quarterback, you can't afford all the other bells and whistles in the modern NFL. I got this. I mean this is Bill Barnwell wrote a column about this like a few years ago, and that's where the thought kind of first occurred to me.
And that's what I did this analysis. But I just again, I'm just trying to I'm trying to find the middle ground between your take and the empirical reality of the quality of these quarterbacks. We are winning everything. They're just maybe you're saying things shifted in recent history, and I'm saying they're shifting in that direction. This this theory doesn't apply to nineteen ninety one, to two thousand and one,
even to two thousand and eleven. This is a very recent recent you know, it's really only been the last two or three years you've seen teams go like all right, Penney Sewell and J. C. Horne being drafted ahead of Justin Fields doesn't happen three or four years ago. Like even as recently as three four, five years ago, that doesn't happen. That's a relatively new phenomenal think. I think.
I think that's part of the disconnect in our discussion about this is that I think you're kind of talking about getting the okay ball and I'm talking about winning the Super Bowl, like and maybe that's just too stringent. The criteria is something, but you, I think all are I think all Alex's point is, and I agree with most of it, is that there is a path to winning the Super Bowl without having Patrick Mahomes on your roster. Right, So, I guess here's what kills me. If the Niners had
won in twenty nineteen, I'm a genius. But they didn't lose because of poor roster construction. They lost because their coach blew the game. Why were they throwing the ball with Jimmy Garb It could have run out the clock, But that's the point, that's the point. Why would they throwing the Sorry problem, you have a quarterback. You can't make that thrill. That's part of the problem. He was wide open. They didn't need to throw that. It's not like they were down to It's not like they were
down two scores. It's not like they were down two scores and Jimmy Garoppolo couldn't lead them back. Okay, man speed. We really appreciate the call man. Anytime you want to call in the floor is yours to argue with Alex, which I really appreciate. And then he always brings up twenty nineteen Jimmy Garoppolo and ignores that forever ignore is the fact that he missed a wide open touch. They didn't need to throw the ball because they didn't need a throw ball. Ben and Maryland wrap us up here, Ben,
what do you got? Hey? Y'all? This has been my favorite podcast episode yet. I have to say thank you. I have to say that I've agreed with Alex most of the show, darn it. But anyway, be watching the All twenty two from last year, it felt like the Patriots really like never blitz Alan and let Alan Alan, you know, extend plays on food, down, both down, all
that stuff. So I want the Patriots to blitz lots, to bring in Jude on Wise all of that, and also wondering if you just as signed a player like you know, Mac Wilson to follow him all night quarterback spy kind of thing. But yeah, that's it. Yes, love it, love it, Love it, Ben. That's I think exactly what we were trying to get to. And thanks for the call. Is that put some pressure on him, dial up some
blitzes when you do play man coverage. Then a guy like Mac Wilson's the perfect spy, right, And I think what's cool about some of the things that they do. I I got into this rabbit hole, and when I was writing up my game preview, I didn't fully go there because the Patriots don't do a ton of it. But Georgia and the Sabin Tree runs this front called Odd Mirror, which is a three down front, and there's a fourth guy who's kind of like a free player.
And basically the whole design of the front again it's called Odd Mirror, is that those three guys are let loose, like they have the freedom to just beat the guy in front of them. Just do whatever you want. Don't worry about rush lane integrity, don't worry about the mobile quarterback.
Just go get the QB. And that fourth guy who's usually standing up on the line of scrimmage is the is the spy, right, So what they do that really really well is they funnel the quarterback in one direction so that the spy is not trying to spy him from sideline to sideline, but instead he has an idea
of where exactly they're leading the quarterback to. So, for example, if like they want to let Judeon you know, just loops on the edge, like maybe it's like, okay, I'm gonna rush him from the backside on the left tackle who happens to be a backup because Deon Dawkins isn't playing in this game. So mac Wilson, you know, that non armed side is where Josh Allen's going to escape the pocket from, which is what you want to do. And I think mac Wilson played that role the right Alabama. Um, yeah, no,
that that's a great That's the key. The key to it, though, is as much as you're letting the rushers free, they have to still rush within that structure. Yeah. I would also say Alabama in recent years to struggle against mobile quarterbacks like the Patriots have. You know, yeah, they have. You saw what Hendon Hooker did to them extending plays a couple of weeks ago. So, uh, you know against the guy, this was more. I believe this is more of a Kirby thing, Like I think this is more
of a Georgia that would make sense. Yeah, No, I know Alabama runs it, but I think they've I think it's more. I think Georgia doesn't were an Alabama. Maybe Georgia does it better. Well, well, I mean you look at who they had, like some of the guys they've had the last couple of years, Play Walker into Kobe Dean with with those guys they've had up front, Jordan Davis like, come on, get out of here that. Yeah, they've they've had just unbelievable talent upfront. Um, we didn't
touch too much on the offense. So yeah, I at one point on the offense, and I pretty much make this point every time the Patriots play a high flying off offense on the other side. And I talked about it for the Billy Bucks last year the Cowboys. The biggest thing the Patriots offense can do in this game other than score points. I know you want them to score points, really is shorten the game? Shorten the game You're going old school on me. Keep the clock, but
it works even it works, keep the clock running. Limit the number of plays, limit the number of drives. Because we've talked a lot about the Bills margin for error. They turn the ball over a lot, but they can make up for it. The way to shrink that margin for error. You look at where they've won a lot of these games. The last couple of weeks. They've won it. People say, oh, they're winning games in the fourth quarter. No, they're winning well, they are, but they're winning games on
the tenth, eleventh, twelfth drive of the game. If you keep that clock running, might be the fourth quarter. But that tenth drive is not gonna come right. Last year against Tampa, I said, I said, they have to keep Tampa to under eight drives or eight or under drives. Tampa scored a game winning touchdown on the ninth drive of the game. Now, shortening the game, that means ball control,
It means converting third downs, it means extending drives. These are things that the Patriots they're you know, third down percentage, average drive length, average drive time, average rise per game. They're in the bottom ten, you know, bottom third of the league, and all of that so this is this is all well, here's the thing. We're just talking about what they need to do. It's all much easier said
than done. But if they can find some sort of rhythm offensively where they keep it moving, that's how they're gonna win this game. Can I give you the one sliver of hope on this. I know you say they're not great with this. Yeah, the Bills are one of the worst teams in the league and covering tight ends, and it's been especially a big problem for them since Micah Hyde went on irm as you would expect. Great way to extend a game is run the ball. Run
the ball, run the ball. When they come out to take that away, go play action, throw it to the tight end. I know this is something we've called for for two years and hasn't happened, But if there was ever a time to do it, and the kicker. The Bills are also one of the worst tackling teams in the league. They don't tackle well in the open field. This is such a game where play action. Hit your tight ends in the flat, let them run with the ball after the catch. This is such a game for
that con sept. Will they do it? We'll see it's not the first time if somebody sat here and called for it, but this is a game where that that sort of game plan could serve them very well. So the Lions actually did well off play action. But for the most part, the Bills have been really good play action defense. But I think the main reason why they've been so good is because a lot of play action.
This is gonna sound counterttuitive to everything that I've said all year, I admit that, but a lot of the play action concepts that teams run aimed to attack the linebackers, and they're linebackers are excellent in coverage, right Jamaine Edmonds and Matt Mulatta is probably the best coverage duo at linebacker in the league. So what the Lions did was they ran a lot of those like seven eight protect big drop play action against them where they got those
corners Dan Jackson, you know guy a Xavier Rhodes. I don't think he played in that game yet, but that he's gonna play it tomorrow night. Like those guys were on islands against the moder Ross Saint Brown a lot of the game and that's how they did it. So I think that those the play action concepts. We've actually seen them run a lot of more with Bailey Zappy, but then a little bit with Mac over the last
two weeks. I think those, ironically, because I've been saying ditch them, right, I think those actually came back, come back to in play. And I think the biggest reason why, to kind of my overarching point with the offense is that just like the defense, you gotta do something different, right like what you what you're They know your bread
and butter. Teams are selling the run and teams they know they know you're gonna try to run gap at them because that's what you did in the win game and we're so successful with you know that they know you're gonna try to run gap at them, and they know that you want to throw the ball to in breaking rats over the middle of the field, right like
they know that that's your bread and butter. So last year they played more man coverage than they usually do in that Week sixteen game, and they played a lot of inside leverage. Right. The corners were taking inside leverage instead of outside position to try to take away and
cut off the middle of the field. So on top of the fact that you know having some compliments or having some tendency breakers to those types of things where you know, maybe Jakobe Myers runs a ten yard out instead of a ten yard dig or something like that. I think that these bigger drop back, you know, bigger, you know, deeper play action plays that they've developed this year is something that Buffalo has not necessarily seen you do, right, because you've always been so caught up in the second
level play action plays. So I think that's a big part this secondary for the Bills, and now that they don't have Von Miller, which I think is huge, This secondary for Buffalo is banged up. They are not the same secondary that they've been that that safety tandem is now broken right because Mica Hide's not playing, Jordan Poyer has been in and out of the lineup. Ddavious White's supposed to play more this week, but he's still coming back from that acl and they've had a lot of
issues at the second outside cornerback spot. They've revolved the revolving door there. Dame Jackson I mentioned that Ben Ford, who's now on injured reserve Kayer Elam, their first round pick, has kind of been a bus so far. So they are really struggling to find consistent play out of their cbe two spot. So those are the areas that I think you can attack this Bills defense, and without von Miller, maybe you have some more time to do it. I just had this lasting image from the game last year
here where they're Patriots from that condensed formation. Nelson agiler is out wide. Yeah, everybody else is condensed. The Bills had one corner standing out with Nelson Agilor, and then they had ten guys in the box. They didn't have a deep safety. They weren't, you know, they they were just waiting for it. Yea. And I would expect the Bills to give the Patriots a similar look again until they prove they can beat it. So you have to
prove you can beat that look. And I go back to play action and are you you're looking for the deep shots. To me, it's the tight ends they've They've allowed the fifth most catches to tight ends in the league this year. You've got especially tight ends out of some of their spread looks. You gotta spread out, you gotta spread spread out. The play action stuff for is me attacking Milano and Edmunds feels like you're attacking this, So I'm not necessarily saying play action to attack those guys.
I'm just saying they're expecting you to run. Their gonna come out and expecting you to run. Maybe you can take advantage of that. But especially John hu Smith, you got a team that can't cover tight ends, that's bad at tackling after the catch. That should scream John. And look they have gotten them more involved the last two weeks, John who had six touches against the Jets, and then
Hunter Henry had the big game last week. Right, it's not close to what we were looking for coming into the season, but they are starting to get a little more involved here. So I will say this, Alex, it's a good time to play the Bills. Like if you have you're gonna have to play the Bills twice a year. You can't, you can't avoid playing Buffalo. No, it's a
good time to play the Bills. They have some guys out, starting left tackle out, Von Miller out, Micah Hide out for the year, Tredavious White still working his way back, Edmonds has been banged up a little bit. So if you're this is as good of a situation to play Buffalo as you're gonna get that other than Josh Allen not playing in the game, right, all all I had did and this is kind of my big point on the whole game. And then I know we're running long here.
I have to get this one out. U. I when I watched the Bills this year and really going back to last year, I've texted you about this a lot. Oh boy, I think teams respect the Bills too much. And what I mean, listen, listen, I don't mean that the Bills are overrated or anything like that. When the Ravens used to come in here. You see, I give the spiel. People say I'm hating on the Bills, and I can care them the Patriots, right, I think Judan's got a little bit out. He's no, he talked about it.
So yeah. The reason the Ravens were the one team that always gave the Patriots fits is they were the one team that consistently when they played the Patriots. Whatever, Man, we're NFL players, they're NFL players, will figure we're gonna do what we do because we believe in what we do and we're gonna trust ourselves. When the Patriots played Brady last year, Matthew Jude I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something to the effect of, yeah,
he's Tom Brady, but he's human. He's an NFL quarterback. We faced NFL quarterbacks before and they almost beat him. That doesn't mean take them lightly, but what it means is Patriots. I know people are down on them. They made the playoffs last year. The ove these guys are in the NFL for a reason, right, just just kidding. I'm not saying. I'm not saying run the same stuff
they always, but like, don't reinvent the wheel. I see so many teams they play the bills, and they diverge so extremely from what they usually do, and they come up with these super intricate game plans and it's like, all right, in theory, that's a nice idea in theory that will work, but you don't have the personnelity execute it to do things they can't do right, Gotta do something different, do something different, but operate within your strength.
Don't like a perfect example last year, Miles Bryant just wasn't fast enough to cover Aza McKenzie. It was again, I don't necessarily hate the coverage plan they had last year, but they didn't have the players to execute it. You can't just go reinventing the wheel because the Bills are this big scary offense. I think you still at the end of the day, any and this is about any matchup,
you have to play to your strengths. If you don't play to your strengths, you're not gonna win the game, regardless of who you are as a team, regardless of who you're playing. You know who does a great job of playing to their strengths. The Bills, they almost do it to the other extreme. They almost do it to a fault. The Wind game, they did not adjust because they said, we don't run the ball. Well, we have Josh Allen, so we're just gonna throw because that's what
we do well. I think so many teams, so many teams get away from so many teams get away from their identity against teams like the Bills, against teams like like this isn't just the Bills, the old Patriots. You see it against the Chiefs, although you see it a lot less now. And look that's what's happening. The Chiefs are in some more rock fights. You can't get away from your identity in this game. You just can't do it because that's how the game will get away from
you quicker than anything else. Okay, so my two things. I want to wrap this on three things. Two things, three things whatever. One. Number one I need I need. I need a Bill game plan out of this, right, Like I need some old school like this is like we're putting it Thurman Thomas in the Hall of Fame because Bill took them out of the Super Bowl, Like like I need this. But that's my point Bill, this like Bill needs to get in the lab and be Bill. Yes,
that's that has to be. You are only gonna win this game if after the game on Thursday night early Friday morning, when you and I are in the press box, were like, holy crap, that was a hell game plan by Bill, right, Like that's the only way that they're gonna win this game. Number two, I'm gonna go back to my quarterback thing. The other way you're gonna win this game is if Mac Jones makes some plays in
the fourth quarter. Like you're not gonna avoid that, Like you're not gonna be up two scores in the fourth quarter. So the quarterback's gonna have to make some plays in the fourth quarter as well. And if you can get those two things and one of them, I mean both of them kind of have eluded them a little bit here, especially more than before with Bill. I would say, if you can get those two things checked off, and I think that you have a good chance in this game.
And the last thing I will say. I'm not gonna preface this very carefully because I do not want them to purposely try to injure Josh Allen. That's not this is I was. I didn't want to say it. I'm gonna say, but thank you Mac Wilson and Jabriel Peppers. Is a message for both of you, if you have a chance to line him up, line him up, okay, because everybody else that you see play against this guy doesn't want to do it. So they don't want to put their shoulder into him because he's two hundred and
fifty pounds and he's a beast. Okay, But I see those two guys lay out big who I think would definitely respond to that message. Matthew jud Yeah, this goes back to me. But he's important, So like I don't want to because if they because what's gonna happen as as soon as they lay him out all the flags are in the air, and now all of Buffalo is gonna want the guy ejected from the yards here. Okay, here's the thing. This goes back to their spec thing. Yeah,
players don't want to tackle Josh Allen. I don't know if it's because he's big or it's got don't want to be the guy. I don't want you to tackle him where like he runs you over and then he's flaxing on you and stuff. I don't want to see anything. I forget who it was who said it this week. It might have it might have been wise, It might have somebody said it. Yeah, when he runs the ball, you got to make him feel it. Yeah, absolutely, and again sank try to hurt him. No dirty place. But
now when this is a talking place. As long as quarterbacks have been scrambling going back to fran freakin Tarkington as I know you hate going back, but this is will you Sammy by listen, I did he run? I think this is something we can agree on. That's an old school football talking point, and there aren't many of those. When the quarterback decides to become a runner, Yes, you
need to make him pay for it. You need to make him feel it that it's as true now as it was in the days of slinging, said luckman, I think it was slinging Sammy ball or whatever. You know the point, you know the point I'm trying to make here, would you disagree? Disagree? I watched their games all the time, and I watched Josh Allen. He runs over a defensive back and then he's flexing on him and thank him. But he in a blanket as they escored him out of my own And that's how they get him all
fired up. Like that's how he gets into the game, right, That's how he gets his juices flowing. It's that hockey mentality where like every team, like you know, when Pasta gets hit too hard, there's like six bruins that like come to his defense, right, Like that's that's what they gotta be able to do it. I think that goes to your point of not over hyping the bills in your hands, right, like that getting too That's a better way to say it than teams respect the bills too much.
But I like the reaction when I say, all right, well, we appreciate Marine Mad for hanging on for twenty five extra minutes on the Five here today and uh Alex and I will be back next week, same time, same place, hopefully talking about how Bill Belichick did a great job of stopping Josh Allen and just like slimming Sammy Barr or whatever said luck then Otto Graham they leave him. Thanks so much for listening to everybody who We'll talk
to you next week. Thank you for downloading this podcast, Subscribe on Apple, Google Play, and everywhere else you listen. Like the show, please rate and review us. Listener comments and ratings help keep us high in the podcast rankings so new listeners can find us. Be sure to Checkpatriots dot com for more news and more podcasts.