Patriots Catch-22 1/19: OC Search Updates, Positional Needs, NFL Draft Talk

have been. We're gonna get into the offensive coordinator search for the Patriots here in the second Evan Lazar, Alex Barth Patriots Catch twenty two going to be with you for the next hour plus. We got some leeway today because unfortunately we're not preparing for any sort of game or anything right now, so we got some leeway. Let's let's tell that this is going to be our time slot for the most party for the rest of the offer, at least right through the draft. Yes, that's the hope.

That's not the big announcement, But that's not the big announced. I know we've been jumping around people on Twitter always asking I feel bad because people want consistency, right, they want their schedule. This is gonna be it for the next couple months at least. This is going to be when we're doing the show YEP two pm and also on YouTube. We're gonna be on YouTube YEP. I know people like the video version, so we're gonna be on YouTube, patriots dot com and on the Patriots YouTube channel for

those that like the video. We're gonna get into the big announcement. You want to do it now. I want to do it now because I want to break it down, I know, but I want to wait to the end of the show because that's how you get people to listen to the entire show. That's good radio. I'm supposed to be the radio guy. That's good radio. That's fair. I can't believe I'm telling you this, right. I'm just all jacked up about them, very exciting. I'm excited about

it too, But we're gonna get into that. I want to start with the coordinator search and I said it on Unfiltered I'll repeat my take for people that just listen to us here. I'm concerned about some of the names that I'm hearing, And the main reason why I am concerned is that the number one thing that I wanted them to check off in this search and in this higher was experience. That was the number one thing

I cared about. Experience running an NFL offense, calling plays in an NFL offense, working with quarterbacks in the NFL experience. I think that last year one of the biggest issues that you had, along with maybe just the overall knowledge on that side of the football, but I think one of the bigger issues that you had was that Matt Patricia was a first time play caller with a young

quarterback learning that role on the fly. And I understand no quarterbacks coaches, right, I understand that Keenan mccartell and Sean Jefferson and Adrian clem those guys grew up on offense. They played offense, They grew up in offense, and they are way more experienced in terms of their NFL exposures to the offensive side of the ball than Matt Patricia ever was. So in that respect, they have a lot more experience. They have NFL resumes for offensive coaches, no

doubt about it. But I look at this situation and I say, if the guys that they're bringing in are and we're going to break down each one of them to individually too, but just as a big picture takeaway, the guys that they're bringing in, if this is they're bringing them in to actually interview them to be a part of the staff that they're putting together for Bill O'Brien or they're putting together even though I wouldn't love it.

But if they're putting it together for Doug Marone or something like then I can understand the method to the madness. But if you're just going to hand the keys to the Patriots offense in twenty twenty three over to Sean Jefferson, who has been coaching under Cliff Kingsbury, who is the offense in Arizona, calls the plays, it's his system, it's it's his game. I have hesitations about that, and I

wouldn't have the same hesitations. Like let's say that it was Zach Robinson that they're bringing in, because Zach Robinson has played quarterback, and Zach Robinson fits that mold of former NFL quarterback. He's the Kevin O'Connell right like, he's he fits that new age Ken Dorsey that what's going on around the league. These guys. I like that they're

outside the box a little bit. I like that they're not necessarily names that all of us may be guessed or or maybe names that that have been It's not like chat o'shay right, it's not all names like that. I know they've played with Belichick or or related somehow to Belichick in some way, but they're not really. They're not a nosha, They're not like somebody that's just like that, right,

that's in tr in the Belichick way of thinking. So I like that element of it, but I'm very concerned about the experienced factor and giving a first time play caller another shot here next year. So I think we have the exact same take. I'm just looking at a glass half full. You're looking at a glass half empty. Shocker, yeah, shockert. Sean Jefferson is one of the best wide receivers coaches in the League's Calvin Johnson, who knows a thing or

two about the position. Because because coaching Calvin Johnson to a Hall of Fame career is that I'm supposed to get like, listen, give him credit. Listen, he was Calvin Johnson's wide receivers coach for the first six years of his career. And Calvin Johnson came from a triple option system in college. You're gonna tell me a guy from him coming from a triple option system didn't need a little bit of help along the way. He did that all on his own in that organization. That was a

nobody does all on its own. But like, are we're gonna take Randy Moss's wide receiver coach and say, oh wow, look at the great job he did with or Keenan McCardell at Justin Jefferson. So well, but here you don't put any stock into that fact that he coached, all right, I put some in and with mccartyll more impressive to me. Let's take McCardell for example. They have some younger receivers, Like if he had fixed Jalen Rager, that would have

been more than he worked with Stefon Diggs in Maryland. McCardell, Okay, I mean, here's my point. Here's my point. They have talked to people who have and to what extent they were part of the development we can debate. We don't really know, but we're around the development of some really impressive wide receivers. But this is like this just just just listen, all right. Two of the four guys who

know they've interviewed come from wide receiver backgrounds. Yeah, I am totally with you on the fact that I want a guy who's called plays before. I want a guy who's quarterback focused. I want a guy who's been ahead coach before, so he has that sort of reputation. So I still take Bill O'Brien over Keenan McCardell or over

Sean Jefferson. But the fact they're even doing those interviews, and I'm with you if you can get one of those guys here as the wide receivers coach, and you got to give him some sort of bump, right, but let's call it wide receivers coach slash passing game coordinator. Right. It tells me they are serious about changing the way they do things at the wide receiver position, which is

something they need to do. We've talked about this a lot about how they need that true number one, and neither one of us are exactly sure, and the class is part of this, but we're not exactly sure that going into the class is the way that they're going to do that, they have to go the expensive route, trade for a guy, give them a new contract. I still think even if they brought in one of those guys,

that's the route they should go. But it tells me that they are serious about changing the approach at the wide receiver position. That is encouraging. It doesn't mean I think mccardeller Jefferson should be the number one candidate. I don't. I still think it should be O'Brien and even honestly with Adrian Clem. Yeah, first of all, Oregon offense last year was how it performed versus how it should have performed. And maybe this isn't as much on Clem, but again

he was in the building for this. Bo Knicks by the time he was done at Auburn was a complete mess, complete, seemed unsalvageable. Goes to Oregon gets in the Heisman conversation. Now, Adrian Clem wasn't the one coaching up the quarterback, but that was a massive quarterback turnaround, and he was in some of those meetings. He was on the staff that did it. I also think, did you talk about development.

Their first round pick needs to be a tackle. We both agree on this you need an offensive line coach and experienced guy to be to help that guy along. So I still think Bill O'Brien's number one candidate. I wish they were talking to some more people with quarterback backgrounds, a quarterback equivalent of a guy like Adrian Clem or a guy like Keenan McCardell. But I do like that they are bringing those sorts up people with that sort

of background into the building to talk to. That to me is ass because that's what this staff outside of Troy Brown didn't have last year. That viewpoint I come back to that if Adrian Clem is coming here as the offensive line coach and Keenan McCardell is coming here as the wide receivers and pass game coordinator, that's a totally different conversation. So this is what again, we're saying the same thing, We're just viewing it differently. I I need the guy at the top tagline of the show.

I do to need the guy at the top. I need the guy that is going to come in and that is going to people are going to look around and look at him and see and say that guy knows what he's doing right. This guy has experienced, this guy has knowledge, this guy is everything makes sense where we are all on the same page and we understand what the goal is here on offense and what the system is and all those types of things. I think it's great that your wide receiver point, I think is

a fair one. And I wonder with all these interviews of wide receivers coaches, what this means for Troy Brown's future with the team. I wonder if that's a spot that they look at and say, we're not coaching this well enough here and we need a total new perspective. And along those lines, I like the idea that as we kind of get into who these people really are, that this is going to offer some fresh perspective from

a conceptual standpoint or schematic standpoint. Where mccartell is in that West Coast Shanahan tree, that's the type of coach that he is, not just with Kevin O'Connell, but with Nathaniel Hackett, with Jay Gruden, with some other coaches that he's been under, you know, our offensive coordinators and head coaches that he's been under. He's been coaching in the West Coast Shanahan style system. So that suggests that he

would probably run something that resembles that. And we've talked about this a lot about the Patriots potentially going in that direction. We've we're throwing out names over the last Can we throw some breaking news in here real quick? And it's sort of we knew according to Ian rapport, the Patriots have officially now interviewed Bill O'Brien. So this is where this is. I think this is what it was happening, and that's I'm glad we got this while we were on the air. First of all, I'm excited

that that's great news. But second of all, this is what I think is happening. Because there's a report out there, and I don't know how true it is. I don't want to be married to it, but there's a report out there that Bill Belichick had some sort of meeting of the minds with Doug Marone, right, and Doug Moron was somebody that he checked in with just to get his perspective on some of the offensive coaches, younger coaches

around the league. In the NFL. It was with New Orleans right now, Doug Morone is and now they go in, they interview McCardell, they interview Sean Jefferson, they interview Adrian Clem. When I look at what they're doing here, I think they're putting together a staff. I think they're putting together a staff. And then they're interviewed all these other guys that getting all these other guys in the building and on the know, and now here comes Bill O'Brien to interview,

to tie it, to tie it all together. And if so, now can we go back to my take about it would be perfect? Yeah, And that's where I was coming from from the from the jump. So I'm glad that you brought it your perspective on it, because I don't want to come at it from a negative angle one hundred percent, because I think that that's a great thing. And if I had to put my hat in a ring here, a Bill O'Brien Sean Jefferson duo is where

I would love to see them go. Okay, why Jefferson over McCardell, because I like the spread better for mac Jones and I like the West. I understand that you look out in San Francisco and you see what Brock Purdy's doing in that system, and you say, well, why

why not us? Right? Why can't we do that. I think in order to really truly be able to run that system, you need to be your last name needs to either be shanahan or McVeagh, right, Like, there's only a handful of guys that I fully trust in stalling that kind of scheme. Now, other guys about you, La

Floor and Arthur Smith is touched in that category. What what McCardell, I think does a little bit more of that maybe or what the vic They're more like North Turner West Coast, right, so it's not quite as So that's the thing, like they ran it's their own, like they didn't have cousins going out, you know, moving all over they so they do half boot with cousins, where like it's a it's a boot, but it's not as elongated as like a full on bootlegg So that's the thing.

I look at what phrasing there, it's great, I look at what Cousins did this past season. Yeah, I don't think that that's out of the question for Matt Jones, like those sorts of so, like I'm I would take either one. I'm not really sure which way to go McCardell or I guess the interesting thing about Sean Jefferson is he has had that associate head coach tag, right, so maybe he has a little more of that experience

in that room. Also, maybe it makes them a little harder to get though, if it's not the OC job. I I don't think they're not. I don't McCardell's not gonna go full Shanahan. No, I don't know if I necessarily go full shit. And also do they have the speed to run that sort of spread like which which branch which direction? In terms of those two offense you just laid out requires less personnel change, and they need personnel change on offense when we or the other I

think that they could run Bill O'Brien's twenty eleven offense tomorrow. Okay, but you're talking about them running the Cardell's or Jefferson's

in terms of that. So the reason why I like the Jefferson combo better with O'Brien is because I think he brings some of that Kingsbury into what they're already doing with the Alabama So you like so you like the marriage of what Jefferson what the Cardinals are, right, I just think that makes more sense because I think they're speaking a similar language, okay at that point, but I look at that twenty and it's it's beyond twenty eleven. I think people hear that and they think of the

two tight end offense, right. I mean, and that's natural, and it's definitely a part of it. And I know you have two tight ends here that you're paying a lot of money to that you hope you're going to get more out of. But I just look at it too, just the way that they I think what they were trying to do last year was they were trying to put Mac in the gun. They're trying to spread the field, and it was too volatile. Right, We've been over this

a million times. It was either there was turnovers, there was issues on first and second down with efficiency, and there was big plays where there was moments, but it wasn't consistent enough. I think what you can get out of a guy like Bill O'Brien coming in is that you can have something that's a little bit more efficient,

and that's what that twenty eleven offense was. Right. That twenty eleven offense was not necessarily a sixty yard touchdown every single time they stepped on the field, right, That was an efficient spread pace type of system, and we've gone through the numbers on this about the Patriots ability to move the ball on non explosive plays and how that was such an issue in twenty twenty two. O'Brien's like,

you said, it's going to fix that. I know we don't really do this on the show, but Evan, if you'll allow me here because this is interesting, We've got one more tweet here for me and rapports. So he just reported O'Brien has interviewed past past tense, the Patriots have interviewed, and then he added with this literally minute ago the page he quote tweets Josina Anderson's tweet from yesterday, yeah, saying McCardell will interview on Thursday, which is today, rapaport

a minute ago. The Patriots aren't done interviewing, but they may be by tomorrow. They may be done by Tomart, which is now, which would be Friday. So are we going to find out Bill O'Brien's the offensive coordinator by tomorrow? We'll at five o'clock. Now. That seems to suggest that McCardell's the last interview, right, and if they still want to talk to him after interviewing O'Brien that does that suggest they want McCardell. I don't know. I couldn't be

ready too much into it, right. What it comes down to is what I keep. But I think you're right. I think, do you do you think is this? It? Is this the list? McCardell, Jefferson, Clem O'Brien, Kayley. Are those the candidates? I think that that's the staff next year. I think they want I know Sean Jefferson and McCardell are both going to be here, but also we don't know what Kayley's going to be here. I think that

they are. I think they would ideally like to retain Kayley, and I think that's why they gave him the interview was as kind of a goodwill gesture of we're gonna put your name in the ring, right, We're gonna We're

gonna try to give you that. But I think the biggest thing is is that you look at this and I think that this is actually on top of the fact that we're also trying, I think, to get some fresh perspectives and some new ideas and some new life into this coaching estaff, which is important, especially on offense.

I also think that they're trying to set up some sort of longevity with it as well, Where if Bill O'Brien gets the job next year and he's the coordinator in twenty twenty three and he coaches his butt off and mac Jones has a great season and the Patriots

or a top ten offense. Again, Alex, I mean, you know as well as I do, he's gonna have head coaching offers, right, So when he gets those head coaching offers, well, now, Bill O'Brien has had Sean Jefferson on the staff with him this year, and he's groomed them right, And now Sean Jefferson just takes the keys, and he might might not be somebody that is as much of a flight risk, right like right, he might not be someone that's gone after a season or two. He might be able to

be here for an extended period of time. So again, I come back to if all of these other interviews, the Clems, the Jefferson's, the McCardell's of the world, were all because Bill O'Brien handed them a short list and said, this is what I think I would like my staff to look like if we had an ideal world and they go out and they and they start to make connections with those guys. Then Bill O'Brien comes over the top.

They get the guys that they can get. Maybe they don't get all of them, right, but they get a couple of them, They get one of them to get two of them, and then they go from there. The biggest one along with I love your point about the receivers. I think that's very valid. Offensive line coach like that, I think is a massive, massive thing. Yes, Doug Marone is an offensive line coach. He's coached on Bill O'Brien's staff before. They have a very very deep rooted relationship.

I don't know what Doug marone situation is in New Orleans in terms of contract, and it would be a lateral move and maybe it's offensive line coach and run game coordinator, right Like, maybe you put that that title on there, so it's not technically a lateral move. But I think that that's another one that's a big spot.

So maybe Doug Marone and Adrian Klamer the finalist to be offensive line coach here next year on Bill O'Brien's staff, right, Like, maybe that's what they're looking at it and that's what they end up doing, then I am fully on board with it. I would love it, And I don't know, can they get Morone as one of those like I think it's his Oh no, he is the offensive line coach with the Saints. Can they get him as one of those like offensive consultant coaches? Like wasn't that Brett

Bielma's role when he was here on defense? Yeah? Like he didn't have a title, right, he was just like a I think he did eventually, but I understand what you're saying. It's you know what I mean. Yeah, it's kind of like the quality control but a little bit above. This is the NFL version of that. Yeah, he was. He was the consultant to the head coach. That was his title in twenty eighteen, and he mainly worked with the defense them and then he was the defensive line

coach in twenty nineteen. So could they get you know it, we're Adrian Clem as your offensive line coach and Doug Morone is just this other guy who's around with some title. Because it is still a young staff. If that's you do have Bill O'Brien, but beyond him, it's a young staff and just having another I don't want to say another adult in the room because it implies the other guys aren't adults. But guy who's been there, done that. Yeah,

another another experienced voice. This has been a huge take of mine all offseason, Evan is. There's a lot of focus on the offensive coordinator, and there should be, and rightfully so, but a lot of the times and this is what we do on this show that doesn't get done on other shows, other shows that got other stuff to get to. They want to get to the glitz and the glam and whatever, and they say, all right, well you get the new offensive coordinator. Everything's fixed to

move on the getting the offensive coordinators. Big. But there was that great piece on NFL Network last week. I think I sent it to you about Ivan Fears and Dante's karnet. Yeah, and how impactful they were. They're here for twenty years, right they left. McDaniels had been the quarterbacks coach here for a decade and then going back to his first stint, he's no longer here. Right. It's

not just the offensive coordinate. They used to have one of, if not the best positional coaching staff groups in the NFL. Between McDaniels Scars obviously the Highlights Fears offensive staff. I would be hard I don't. Yeah, so I'll name the names in a second. Yeah, I don't. I don't know enough about like Bill Walsh's staff, or Don Corriel's staff,

or or some of the legendary offense of minds. But I would be hard pressed to find a better offensive coaching staff in NFL history than the twenty sixteen Patriots. Josh McDaniel offensive coordinator, Dante Scarneckia offensive line coach, Ivan Fears, running backs coach, Brian Dable tight ends, Chadow Shay wide receiver.

Who's the quarterbacks coach McDaniels, Yeah, Chopinski here. No, So they had some other lower guys were we're already there, right, you know some guys I yeah, Kaylee was like an offensive assistant. Yeah, Mike Pellegrino's obviously the quarterback corner backs. Excuse me with the Sea coach that he was a

low level assistant at that point in time. But just to think about that staff, right, and Dabel might end up being the best one out of all, right, and he was just the coach should be Coach of the Year, He should be Coach of the Year this year. I'm saying, Um, the point being, look, you're not necessarily going to get back to that level, right, You're just like you said, it's so absurd. But the Patriots did this great job

over twenty years. If they were always guys in the pipeline, like they went from Kernell to Dean Peas, but like Dan Pas was an assistant under Kernell, and then Matt Patricia was an assistant under Peas, right, and then Brian Flores was an assistant under Patricia, And there's just this pipeline. And you kind of had it on the offensive side of the ball too, where you had McDaniels work under Weiss and then you had O'Brien work under McDaniels. They

that pipeline sort of stopped on the offensive side. I think on the defensive side of the ball it still exists. I liked their staff on the defensive side of the ball, I really do. UM, But I think DeMarcus Covington he's gonna coordinate the shrine. He sneaky up and coming, like he's one of those guys that that they have in the pipeline on defense. We obviously know how much they loved Gerard Mayo based on the statement last week, right, But I think that getting to bring it back to

the point, this is not that offensive staff. The pipeline has dried up. They need to reinvigorate not just the offensive coordinator job, at the positional coaches as well, because those guys are so much more important than people realize. And again, we look at this list, it's sort of like we just talked about, and I actually just typed it out here, just the list of interviewees, and you've alluded to this O'Brien, McCardell, Jefferson, clem Kayley. That's a staff.

That's what I'm saying. That's the staff. So get the offensive coordinator hired. But after that, we're not done with the coaching staff. Who's who's the three big ones, who's the QB coach, who's the wide receiver's coach, who's the offensive line coach? Gotta get those answered. And even if Bill O'Brien is the quarterbacks coach on top of being the offensive coordinator, which he was his first stint here, and McDaniels was at the end of his time here. Yeah,

McDaniels was for a decade forever. Yeah, and then Jed Fish I think stopped that streak. And then bo heart Agree comes in and well, so here's in twenty twenty one, McDaniels was the quarterbacks coach. Heart Agree was listed as an offensive assistant, but it was pretty clear just watching that he was the assistant quarterbacks coach. Yea, even if O'Brien is the OC and quarterbacks coach, he's got to go do other offensive coordinator stuff at times. Go get

that assistant quarterbacks coach whoever. I don't have a name. Unfortunately, it'd help this take if I had a name name a former quarterback who's in coaching or wants to get into coaching. That's just gonna live on Max Hip and Bill O'Brien's gonna be there and he's gonna be a big part of it. But when Bill's got to go meet with the other coaches to come up with the game plan, Max still got a coach there with him.

I think that Bohart Agree was an understated loss when he went to Vegas with Josh McDaniels and Soam and Chaplinsky on the field, right, filling that role would be would be big. Okay, let's take Patty's call. If you want to call in and give your your take asks the questions eight five five pats five hundred. You can also email us at web radio at Patriots dot com and then, uh, let's answer Patty's question or take his call.

Then we're gonna get into his positional needs and we'll circle act to this at the end and make sure we button this up. But we got to the announcement, so oh in the announcement, of course, Satty, Patty, what's up? Man? I can't take credit for this question. I think it was either Russ Goldman or Steve Bellistry that that sort

of had this hypothesis. But if you're your Belichick, your Craft, you're the ownership group, you do you like put all your chips on on Nick Kayley to hopefully have him stay. And let's say O'Brien signed a two year contract. You have him out of the contract, but have Nick Kayley as that offensive coordinator in waiting. So you're saying you would give Nick Kayley assurances that he would be the

offensive coordinator eventually to keep him on the Patriots staff. Yeah, because you know, I mean, this is this is sort of a I mean, if if everything goes well, this is just sort of a like patting your resume for Bill O'Brien. So I don't like if if they do a hire him, I don't see him here past two years. Yeah, that's a that's a good question, Patty, And that was

thanks for the call. I think that's why when we were talking about Sean Jefferson and KINGO McCardell as kind of waiting in the wings with O'Brien bridging that gap now, but it couldn't be Kayley, how long's he gonna wait? Right? They already made him wait this year and he's been he's been on staff for eight years. I mean, in theory, yeah, you could do that. I don't know that Kayley agrees that. Honestly,

I don't know that O'Brien agrees to that. Having the next guy right there over his shoulder to one thing Patty said, I would push back on a little bit that this is just patting his resume for Bill O'Brien. Bill O'Brien was supposed to get a big time college football head coaching gig. When the season started, he had he took Bryce Younger the heisman. That offense was a wagon. Now. They lost a lot of talent in the draft, and you kind of had this epiphany the other night. I'd

been trying to tell you about it. Alabama's offensive personnel this past year, like the players, wasn't what it's typically been. No love Jimir Gibbs. I think he can play the wide receivers. That that chain of going, you know, all the way back to really Julio Jones under Sabin, that run of wide receivers. They lost a couple of guys in the draft, Aggie Hall transferred to Texas, dried up a little bit, but the numbers weren't there, the production

wasn't there, that the success wasn't there. This isn't Bill O'Brien patting his resume. This is him trying to get a reset. It's it's an interesting thing about Alabama's offense. And you and I are gonna keep hammering this. If they do make this higher and they hire Bill Brian and I know people are gonna all you're you know, you're making excuses for him. It's Alabama I have never seen. I look, I watch Alabama tape for the last three

or four years. In the draft season, every single year they got seventeen guys right that you're watching wide receivers, lineman quarterbacks. Obviously with Mac running backs, I watched him every offseason. I watch Alabama a hundred times. On offense, I have never seen an Alabama receiving course so slow in the four years that i've really seriously as they have no speed at receiver comparative comparatively speak. When you watched Alabama's offense, it remind you of the Patriots twenty

two offense at all in terms of that. Yes, well not just the whole thing was built around Jamire Gibbs at running back, like they used Jamire Gibbs like the Patriots use Romontres Stevenson. If he wasn't creating the play like Cameron Laws to the tight end had a couple nice plays. Yeah, he's kind of Hunter Henry right, yeah, right. Beyond that, there was Bright It wasn't Price Young's fault. It was I mean, he was hurt for part of the year, so in that sense, I don't know that

he was one hundred percent, but it did. Now, again that's because of the personnel. I don't think that's Bill O'Brien deciding to do that. They tried to throw the ball early. They couldn't do it, so they just built the whole thing around Gibbs. It's crazy to watch that because when you see, for example, just I have a million cutups of Bill O'Brien stuff for fully, I've already prepared for when they make this higher, right, just you have stuff prepared for the other guys too, write a

little bit. I have to get in Jefferson, and well, I guess Jefferson. I have all my my Cliff, my Cliff folder, which will be all Jefferson stuff as well. But with with O'Brien, when you pull clips from the twenty one Bama offense and then you pull clips from the twenty two Bama offense, it's like it's like a totally different team, right, I mean it just Bryce Young still there. Well, they lost so much talent. Yeah, so the receiving corps is not I was watching their film

against ole Miss from this past season. The old Miss secondary was covering their receivers no problem. When's the last time that you could say that an ole Miss defense could keep up with Alabama like in a and now now heading that type of speed game. They actually had some ballers in the secondary. I can't remember they have one corner that that I like that he's not eligible, but yeah, you're right, I'm just trying to flex some

college football stuff. You are right, Yeah, it was. It was tough to watch at times, all right, so that we got a couple of questions here um as well on the email that about Doug Marone. You know, how likely is it that they can pull him out of New Orleans. I think it's likely because of the relationship that he has with O'Brien, right, if O'Brien is the coordinator here, right, Apparently they go way way roommates I heard. I think I think it's the wives were roommates. The

wise were roommates. But they also apparently coach coached together at the Coastguard Academy. Who knows, Hey, I go back. I have called Coastguard Academy football. They run the triple option.

They go way back. But if you're bringing in a guy like Marone to be a line coach, then then Adrian Clem is out right, like Adrian Clem is not going to come here and give up all those titles in Oregon to be the assistant offensive line Well, unless it's one of those things where again, like I said that, you know Clems the offensive line coach, and Marone is just this other sort of guy, or like the Michael Lombardi role or or yeah, yeah, that's why keep going

back to that Bill Moro because it feels comparable. I think that too, because if that report is true that Bill was in New Orleans to talk to Doug Morone, Yeah, then something tells me that there is an maybe Bill needs that offensive consultant. Right, Bills a defensive guy, we know that, so maybe he's looking at Moron as sort of this this offensive guy that's been an offense for a hundred years and knows the ins and outs of the coaching cycle and all that type of stuff. So

it's definitely possible. But that's the news of the hour right now. The Patriots officially did interview Bill O'Brien for their offensive coordinator role, And as Alex and I have been saying, if all these other interviews are just to build a staff for Bill O'Brien, then everything sort of falls into place and the awesome Yeah, then this is as good as you could have hope for. All Right, I want to change gears here, and if there's any

more offensive coaching staff. I see stuff. We're definitely going to get into it, but we want to get to positional needs we didn't have. Did you say there are questions? There was a couple of that. Was it okay? And if you want to call on eight five five pass five hundred again, is the is the phone number? I want to get into these positional needs. Kind of pivot

here from the coaching staff to the roster. Because we're talking so much about the coaching staff all over the place on Patriots dot com bat I don't feel like we're talking a whole lot about the roster. Well, I mean, it's great to have good coaches, but you have to good let's burch that and we kind of talked about it before, at least on the offensive side of the ball. Isn't who they hire going to somewhat dictate the personnel?

I would hope so, And I mean that as in I would hope that they are going to give him the power to dictate some of the personnel. I understand Bill O'Brien's track record with personnel and Houston was horrible. I mean that DeAndre Hopkins trade probably got him fired. I get that, but I still trust Bill O'Brien more than I trust their current brain trust to drop this offense. I'm sorry. We've talked about it, and I don't think it's their number one need. I think it's number three.

They need that big, number one receiver that's gonna dictate. Just here's my point. Yes, the guy that O'Brien's gonna want might be different than the guy McCardell wants or Jefferson wants. Right, and if they're gonna run different schemes, they might want different guys. And maybe that's a part of I think the lore for me of a guy like Sean Jefferson or Keenan McCardell is actually their scouting ability to look at this is what I'm saying, changing

the development. Look, if I'm in the room doing these interviews with Bill and whoever else is in there, I would assume Bill's in there. Yeah. One of the first questions I'm asking is, all right, we've determined we need to go get Mac Jones, the guy. It's the third year. We want our A j Brown, our STEFONDI who do you like offensive coordinator candidate who? And I don't there's no right if I was the office, there's no right or wrong answer. Well I was offensive ahead, I'll interview you.

If I was the offensive coordinator candidate, I'd flipped the script and I'd say, who do you like? Because no offense, you're the one with the bad track record? Right, Like i I'm Keenan McCardell. I've got Justin Jefferson. I can't remember their other receiver's name. Who's actually been j Yeah, he's Osborne or Whatever's good? Isn't jo or terrible that he's he's developed into a nice player. I think some

of the Cardinals is Joe. Yeah. I think some of the Cardinals receivers outside of DeAndre Hopkins take it or leave it. But I think some of those guys have potential. Rondel Moore, if he can stay healthy, certainly has potential. So yeah, I think those guys all have better track records,

no offense too than the Patriots. No. But but but my point is, like they might all say different guys, right, and I'm gonna like, all right, Well, I'm just let's say, all right, because he's with the Colonels, Let's say Sean Jefferson sits down and says I'm bringing Deandredre and he gives this this. Then he talked to Bill O'Brien, who has the history right with with DeAndre, Habinson says, I

think and he's been in Albam. You know, I want to go get Jerry Judy, right, you're gonna sit there and discuss that, right, Yeah, and then if they both get hired that So I think that you have to talk about the staff first because you need to know what the plan is going to be before you can start plugging players into that plan. We can, of course do needs, but I'm just saying I think that's a

good thing. I think that we talk a lot, especially me, to talk so much about scheme and concepts and things like that. But at the end of the day, to this coaching staff and this they got to make the players work too, right, Right, It's not just about well, what's your system and what do you want to run and conceptually what do you believe mac Jones would be good at? Like, it goes beyond that too, to the other positions as well. All right, let's go five to one.

We didn't do this last week and I regretted it. So I want to go five to one. We're gonna leave the best for last or the number one need that we both have for last. So we ranked them one through five. I think you wrote a piece that it was like every single position groups didn't. No, I did my ten point your ten off season plan, full plan from coaching to the draft. So I have positional need posting out coming out tomorrow that is has more

than just Matt doositional needs. I bet we're here, we're going to do one through five, just for time purpose, five through one, five through one through one. Excuse my number five need on my list here for the Patriots is inside linebacker, off ball linebacker. So I understand that they like Juwan Bentley and I like Juan Bentley. I think Jowan Bentley has a role that is always going to be in Bill Belichick's defense. The hard hitting Mike

Sure that's going to forever exist in a Bill Belichick defense. Now, according to Next Gen, they have gotten more zone heavy since twenty nineteen. They just cant that pendulum. It just continues to swing towards zone coverage and now this past season they were sixty four percent zone, which in the Next Gen era is the most zone they've ever played. Under Bill Belichick. Now, a lot of that I think has to do with the fact of who their corners are, right,

and they don't feel confident. They don't have a Gilmore, they don't have a Law, they don't have a Reeves, they don't have a Talib, they don't have that number one corner that he has Jamar Chase. He has Stefon Diggs that they can really rely on and trust on in that role. But I also just think that this is the league now of more split safety coverage, more zone coverage. You're playing Josh Allen, you're playing Burrow, You're playing Miami's. Like, you can't just sit in man against

those teams all the time. You gotta mix it up. You gotta do some different things. You gotta play softer. Quite frankly, if you try to go toe to toe in the ring with Tyreek Hill for four quarters when two is healthy, you're gonna get burnt eventually. That's just the nature of the Beast. So I think zone is

a thing that's going to continue to happen. And I look at inside linebacker and every offseason we talk about speed at linebacker, speed at linebacker, But if they're gonna be sixty four percent zone until at least they find that golden goose corner. They need to be more athletic at that spot, because Juwan Bentley and Joanni Tavai they did their best. But if you're gonna be a truly dynamic zone coverage defense, then you have to have speed

and range at linebacker. You just do. And the name I'm not going to give you is another take of mind with this offseason. I think the one thing that you can take away from the twenty twenty one free agency spending spree for the Patriots is that I would rather pay top of market money to top of market players then pay top of market money to the Nelson Agaloors and the Johnny Smith of the world, just because

you need a tight end. So the guy that I look at in this free agency class that I think fills a need to a degree but also would just make the team better is Tremaine Edmunds from Buffalo. I mean, yeah, if he becomes a free agent and Buffalo, they could make it work. But let's face it, they got a lot of mouse to feed and buffs up players up Allen's extensions about to kick in, Someone's going to be the off band out and Mulana is an All Pro player this year, right, just got first team All Pro.

So Tremaine Edmonds still is two hundred and fifty two hundred and fifty five pounds, He's six foot four, two fifty. I think he's a freak. He's got that athletic freakishness to him, a little like Jamie Collins in that respect, in terms of the body type and the athleticism off the charts. I just think that that's the type of player that I would rather pay Tremaine Edmonds the bag than pay the bag to a wide receiver, just because that it's a bigger need, right, Marcus Peters, Right, just

because it's a bigger need. So that's where I'm at at off all linebacker. Where's your what's your number five need? My number five need is safety, specifically deep safety. I think that Devin mccordy kind of laid the breadcrumbs as the guy who might be ready to walk away, And I don't think people realize how important that deep safety role is in the Patriots events. Even if they are going to beat more zone, I don't think they're gonna

shift that drastically. Yeah, so getting a guy who can play that center field, who his experience there maybe, I mean, you can get a guy who's done both, but not a guy who's just a purely box safety. Right, So I mentioned Poyer's contract is up, Jesse Bates, those are the two top safeties, Like, if you're gonna pay top of the market to replace Devin mccordy, and this is a spot you might not be able to address in the draft because in college football there really aren't a

ton of true free safeties anymore. It's it's a problem everybody plays everything right. And a lot of these college teams in college when you watch college film, except the SEC because that's that's basically an NFL light. But when you watch like the Pac twelve, it's quarters. The whole game is quite They sit in quarters and they hit the top on the defense and that's split safety. And you see a lot of split safety shells in the college game. And now it's trickling up to the NFL.

So again, Bates and Poyer, interesting free agency if it's a spot that they feel like they can coach up and they can maybe go second tier. I look at it, guy like Von Bell, Yeah, Taylor wraps a guy that just seems like the kind of I thought it was like draft Yeah, yeah, I mean special team's experiences. But now that's you need to coach him up. You need help, maybe a draft a guy to compete, but they can't

spend top tall or everywhere. I know the cap can be manipulated, but at the end of the day, there is a soft limit. But I think free safety, if Devin leaves, is a very understated need. I'm a little surprised they didn't get ahead of it. Last year. It was a sneaky good year for deep safeties in the draft. Uh what's his name? In Detroit? Who picked off Rogers three times this year? From Illinois? Kirby, Kirby Joseph. We were on Kirby. I thought I thought he was like

the next Devin mccordy. I'm looking at him like, this is a Devin mccordy. Kind of got sized too, is a big but I Syracuse right, Illinois, Illinois right Colors, Yeah, yeah, the Colors. He had the approximate rank in your conference. But yeah, so peel mcguy too. So number four for me is free safety. So we're speaking the same language. I look at Jesse Bates, and I say, if that guy doesn't get re up by Cincinnati, it's the same

as Tremata. I would rather pay Jesse Bates right because I know that he's a stud I know he's a great player at his position. I think he'd be great here. He can play center field. And I also look at it. They've done this in the past, and I think they got away from it a little bit two free agencies ago because they're just throwing money around. But in the past they would rather pay the less premium position, a little bit more of affordable deal, but get the best player. Right.

So instead of paying I go back to the corner and like Marcus Peters and some of the other free agent corners that are out there. Instead of paying those guys top dollar corner money, which is fifteen sixteen million, you know, JC Jackson level contracts, Jesse Bates is going to come in at like eleven or twelve because safety isn't deemed as a premium position compared to corner. But as you just broke down, and I agree with everything you said, the importance of that role in this defense

is different than other defenses. Post safety in this defense is a premium role because you are time and time again going to be the last line of defense, and you are also the primary help to multiple people on the field. And their entire coverage system is predicated on funneling outside leverage man coverage corners, funneling receivers into the middle of the field help like that's that's their entire defensive structure in man whether it's robber or whether it's

man free. When it's man free, it's even more exacerbated on the free safety because they'll play man free and then they'll rush five right, they use that five h rush package. When you get into that, you have no robber. So it's the free safety in the middle of the field is literally the only help guy anywhere on the field. If your corners are not getting great free safety help, then they're screwed. They're screwed because you're just you're you're

making them cover the whole field one on one. If you listen to like Stefan Gilmour talk about this in nineteen I thought that he talked about this a ton really eloquently. He was able to eliminate routes from his mind because he knew Devin had a his help, right, So he would say from this alignment, I'm not gonna worry about a post because I know if he runs

a post that Devin's going to be there. So what all I'm gonna do is I'm gonna sit on a vertical and I'm gonna sit on something underneath, right, and I'm gonna play trail and I'm gonna be underneath the receiver. And that's if you watch, like his interceptions from that season, half of them are in underneath trail technique because he just knows that Devin is over the top and he knows he's not gonna get beat vertically because of that. So that role is just extremely vital to everything that

they do. And if Devin does retire, I would love to see them back up the brings for Jesse Bates. So I think that he's the perfect transition. And I look at Cincinnati. We're probably gonna talk about te Higgins, sorry Trags, but they don't got deep pockets in Cincinnati, and that roster is loaded. So now we're getting to the point where some of those guys are coming up and they can't afford to keep everybody because they're gonna

have to pay Joe Burrow fifty. They're gonna have to pay Jamar Chase thirty and then you start to think about paying some of the other guys, right, So that's gonna be a big thing. All right, Who's did you give number four? Yet? No? You what's number four? Corner? Specifically big corner, not a slot guy, not five eight, five ten. The number I've set is six one or taller because I like something. I like the corners they have.

I do you know Jonathan Jones a free agent. Will see what happens with him, Jack Jones five eleven, he's your tallest corner signed beyond twenty twenty three. Jalen Millson during the final year's contract, you're gonna have to go through the Bengals all six one and taller. I think the Raiders are probably gonna turn things around. That's a team with a lot of big receivers. You saw how that height tested them this year. The Bills have a lot of bigger receivers as good as their guys are

across the board. Again, I like John Jones, I like Jack Jones, I like Marcus Jones five eleven and shorter, all of them at a certain point size his size. Marcus Jones is out there running step for step with te Higgins in Week sixteen, but at the end of the day, Joe Burrow just throws a jump ball and that's all she wrote. It's not that Marcus Jones can do about that. And there's a couple of guys that

could get in free. I think adding a veteran too, Like if you can give me, give me like a six one six two veteran on a one year deal who can be like an older voice in a young room. Give them some support on the outside against those bigger teams. That's guys like James Bradberry, a guy like rock y'all sin right, I love James Bradberry. I think in this draft, I don't know how much you've dug into Kansas State, Evan.

They did play Alabama in the Sugar Bowl. Yes, I watched that tape, Julius Brent's six foot go ahead, six four fluid hips. Yeah, y'all remember how I was into Tree, not the same guy, but this is this is a similar thing where you just don't find guys built like him. Yeah, and I don't know that his technique is perfect, but they can coach that, right, you just get that guy in the building, something good is going to happen. There's some other big corners I like in this draft. Eli

Ricks and Alabama is another one. Right, I might keep going, but the one I'm worried about is like what I could see them doing. There's a guy Evan I talked to you about him off the air named Trey Hodges Tomlinson. Yes, he's led Daniel Tomlinson's nephew. He plays it at TCU. He was the isn't he just Marcus Jones? He was named the I forget the name of the Award. He was college Football's Corner of the Year this year. He was excellent, Yeah, excellent, played exclusively on the boundary. He's

five eight. Hey's Marcus Jones, And I'm worried they're gonna look at him and say, we just turned Jonathan Jones into a boundary corner. We just turned Marcus Jones into a boundary corner. I think Trey Hodges Tomlinson is really good. He's gonna be a fourth round pick because of the size, third or fourth round pick. I think he's an incredible player. Let somebody else do that. They need, like specifically size at the position. Yeah, so we're like one off because

I have I have corner at three. Well, so I know why we're one off because I did that thing I do where I get weird with the list. But god dam it. All right, so I have quarner at number three. Can you just be normal one? Can you clarify big corner? Yeah, outside corner okay, number three, not just outside corner, like outside corner with size this draft, I've done a little bit of research so far, Alex, you'll be happy. But you haven't come across Julius Brents yet. No,

but this this draft has size. Oh yeah, yeah, there's plenty of size. What do you think of the Georgia kid, right, Keely Ringo? Yeah, he's gonna be fist round pick. Right. That kid's special. I don't think they're gonna be able to get him any be a top ten pick. Okay, I think when he tests and all of that. The other guys should mention here in this have you gotten a cam Smith? So I know I know his profile, but so here's the thing. If I say South Carolina

boundary corner, there you go. You know exactly it. Cam Smith? Is that like he fits Gilmore jc Horn right, like next one in line. So what about the Oregon kid, because he's going to be a first round pick too. I don't know a ton about Christian Gonzalez. Honestly, I kind of do the PAC twelve last, um, You know how I feel about the PAC twelve. You do? So on one hand, they do a lot of zone stuff, like they're a team that actually does get into some

of these more complex zone looks. So like, traditionally I look at that guy and say, oh, he's coming from his zone system. He's not a fit for the Patriots. But if they are going to run more zone and he's had some more complex assignments, then it gets interesting. There's a lot of corners in the PAC twelve in this draft. Yeah, well, so the kid from I keep on saying the kid because I don't know their names

well enough yet. Clark Phillips from Utah and Stanford. So Clark Phillips had some assignments on Jackson Smith and Jigba in that game that you love. So I actually watched him against Jordan Addison past year, and I thought his press reps against Jordan Addison were really really He hit a good game against Jordan as when Jordan Addison played. When he was playing off of Jordan Addison, he had problems, But when he was pressed on Jordan Addison, I thought

he had some really good film there. So let's just finish up the first round here. Devin Witherspoon from Illinois. It's the only one in this group who's going to Senior Bowl. Another big guy, Brett biomaguy, big ten corner, and then the I mean the real one that gets me is Joey Porter Junior from Penn State. Yeah, because you watched Joey Porter junior on defense, you watched Joey Porter junior on special teams, you watched Joey Porter junior

the way he operates on the sideline. But I'm saying, this guy the weight from the football from this not just loves football, but from the second he steps out there for warm ups, he's ready to go what the Patriots want. Yeah, big physical corner, plays in the kicking game as a team leader. But there's the Penn State thing and Joey Porter, j Joey Porter Senior hasn't vocally been the biggest fan of Bill Belichick. That's that's kind of like Asante Samuel Jr. Exactly. So yeah, if if

if he wasn't like, that's the guy. If if it's not for that relation, that's the guy. But we'll see what happens. That's the first round. Ringo, Porter Gonzalez, Smith Witherspoon. So I assume that when you see a Georgia corner projected in the top fifteen, that he's probably going too high for the Patriots to get their hands on. Ringo. I assume he'd probably be a top ten guy. But yeah, I liked what I saw out of the Utah corner

against Addison. That's what I'm trying to do this year, especially with wide receivers and corners, is watch them against top competition, because sometimes I think you get you get coaxed into watching guys against scrubs and they look like all pro players, but you really how to take the film of them against other premier talents. And now that's what I really liked about watching that you Tucket against Addison. Can I give you one more? Then it's kind of

sleeper if they want to go mid round. DJ Turner from Michigan six two, multi year starter. He's got those playoff reps, he's got those reps against Ohio State, right, so I haven't gone through all of them. He's fair, He's played fairly well in those games. He had some reps on Quinton Johnson National Championship. He looked pretty good. I'm trying to get in my hands on the on

the National championship game. And don't see what Ringo did against Quinton Johnson because obviously he had a decent game because Anton Johnson didn't get the ball. But maybe that was just a protection, right, I don't know if Quinton Johnson was getting open, but he was lined up on Quintin Johnson a good amount. He could start watch them run down the field. Yeah, you know, well I'm interested to see it from both perspectives, right, you know, if

maybe it changed my mind about Johnson. Okay, so I'm at number three with the outside corner. So I'm outside corner, free safety, off ball linebacker, your free safety, side corner. What's what's number three? Wide receiver? That big number one.

I mean we've talked, we don't need to do it. Literally, just one off, right Hopkins, Jerry Judy, Mike Evans, the guy that And there's a report from Mike Giardi that almost said this word for word that there's people in the building that believe the guy who's going to dictate coverage. You're gonna other teams are gonna have to double him. They're gonna have to shade coverage towards him. Davante Parker can play. Everybody knows how I feel about Kendrick Bourne.

I'm incredibly high on him. Those are guys that are gonna win one on one more often than not. You need to guarantee that they are getting one on one coverage assignments more often than not. How do you do that? You go get a number one wide receiver that demands multiplayer coverage, snap in and snap out. You want to really unlock this offense. You want to get them back pushing top five and scoring like they were in twenty twenty one. You go add that guy, so he's that's

number two, because you're you have your little trick. I think you know what I did too. I don't know yet, because I talked like this all the time. I'm gonna like it number number two on my list or number three on my list. Excuse me, the two I don't remember too. Jesus, You're you're killing me with your list over there. Number two on my list is wide receiver.

I just think you said it perfectly about if you're really trying to make it work with Mac Jones, then you gotta get him a guy like And I just look at the landscape at the AFC, and I look at the this the whole league. The Chiefs have Kelsey, the Bills have Digs, the Bengals have Chase. You go to the other side, The Eagles have a j Brown, The Niners have Debot and George Kittle and CMC and every single other freaking number one receiver under the sun. Right,

this is the league now. And I think that there was some merit once upon a time to them not wanting to overpay or overdraft that position, right, I think there was some merit to it, especially early on in the Patriots years when teams like the Lions were busting out on receivers in the top ten left and right, like there was some truth to it. But nowadays, if you don't have that guy, then you're not going to win a Super Bowl. I just don't think you can

win a Super Bowl with that one. And you look at sort of the last three or four just matchups in the Super Bowl, not even the just the winner you know, last year it's it's Cooper Cup and Jamar Chase, right, like, they each had a guy on their roster. That's the league now. And the Patriots don't have a guy. They don't have a guy that Patriots the last team to make the Super Bowl without one of those guys. And they had Gronk and they and Edelman who won Super

Bowl MVP. Yeah, ok so I don't even know if they didn't have it right, You're right, I take that back. So I look at the Patriots offense right now, and what I see is an offense that when defensive coaches, okay, we're onto the Patriots. It's it's Tuesday, right, we're game planning, game plan meeting. Who on the Patriots passing offense are you saying, oh, we gotta take that guy out. We got a roll coverage on not even that, not even we have to how are we? Yeah, we need to.

We can't do just what we do. We need to do something different. We need to create a whole new scheme to take that guy away. We got a roll coverage, we gotta one double right, right, whatever it is. And I think the problem is is that on top of the fact that the Patriots just don't have that guy in the Tuesday meeting that anybody cares about. When they get into the Tuesday meeting, they say, well, they don't really have that guy, but like Jacobe Myers, like is

that guy right? Like they're trying to make Jacobe Meyers that guy. So now all of a sudden, on third down, Jacobe Myers is getting double blanketed yet, right, and then Matt now Matt Jones is going to somebody else and Jacoby is even out of it. So Jacoby's punching above his weight because he's not that guy, right, And now the Patriots are The whole thing is just thrown up. They do not have a Tuesday player. That's Michael lombardism right, a Tuesday player like who's the guy that you circle

on the roster. They don't have a Tuesday player on offense, and it's not the quarterback right now. So they don't have a Tuesday player period. If they don't have that, I don't think that you're ever going to be an elite offense. I don't care if Bill Brian's your coach, if Sean mcvagh is your coach, if Kyle Shanahan's your coach, whoever, you're just not going to get there as an offense.

So enough thinking around with it. Like we've gone year after year after year really since eighteen when and Edelman started to slow down or Bronk retired. Right, we've been going five years running on this. There's something that Macro said, and if we get a chance to talk to Macro, hopefully we will maybe when we're going our big show announcement, we'll get a chance to talk to Macro. He said

last year. He agreed with that press And the most important thing that I think that he said and that and his answer to that question was that you can't sit back and wait for the guy anymore, right, like you if you got to go get him right And they I know it was a small trade up, but they did end up trading up from fifty four to fifty to get Taekwon Thorton last year in the second round.

I think Macro recognizes it, and I think that he sees it would be worth it to us to trade a premium asset for DeAndre Hopkins or Jerry Judy or Te Higgins or whoever it may be. The one guy in the draft though at fourteen. And I know you always make fun of me for this because I get attached to guys I watch him. You have a little recency. Buys get recency. And his favorite player in the draft is whatever player he watched most recently. Okay, with that

being said, Jackson Smith and Jigba can play. Yeah, he's incredible. He's really really good. And the reason why I like him so much is he's He's like if Julian Edelman was a first round prospect, right Like, He's got that slot shiftiness, He's always in the right place. He's durable,

he's dependable, he's all those types of things. And I don't want to hear about the hamstring and this he sat out this year because he didn't eat to play, Okay, and they like, I understand that something that rubs some people the wrong way, But to me, I feel like that's part of the problem with the Patriots draft strategy sometimes is that they shy away from guys like JSN who don't play because they don't have to because they want the gamer, right like they want the lunch pale guy,

they want the Jim Rat. Sometimes you just gotta take the best player, right, he just gotta take the best talent. Well. I like so much about him though, is that he's a middle of the field player. He's not the boundary guy where you have a quarterback that isn't toolsy, that isn't a physical freak, and now you're asking him to throw sixty yard bombs because that's what your number one

guy is good at. Right, He's Mac Jones is Binkie and a half, and Dante's Karnecki has talked about this every single time Dante gets in front of a mic. He always says, the thing that the Patriots need isn't the stud outside receiver. They need Wes Welker, right, they need Julian Edelman. They need the guys that stirs the drink, Jackson Smith and Jig but stirs the drake. Like, that's the guy that's gonna catch a hundred twenty five balls out of the slot for the Patriots. I just love

that guy. At fourteen. If the veteran market doesn't break, I still am number one trade right, Like I want to trade for one. So you're team Jerry Judy. Then, in terms of that market, I'm coming around to more Judy because he'd be closer to what you just described, like he runs out of the slot as much as he runs off. Yeah, I just worry about like I don't want them to basically like Tee Higgins to me

is just like better DeVante Parker. And I just don't know if that guy is really what would make Mac the best. I think the efficient short and intermediate jitterbug receiver, which is what Jackson, Smith and Jaboo is. I think that guy thrives in this offense with Mac Jones, get the ball out of his hands right quickly and have his brain be doing heavy lifting, not his art. And I think that's what Smith and Jingbao can really bring to the table. And I would love it at fourteen

if he's there at fourteen. If he runs at the combine, it means he's going to run faster than we all thing. That's the big knock on him, as he doesn't have breakaway game speed. But if he runs at the combine, it means he's gonna run under a four five. And if he runs under a four or five, I don't know if he makes it to fourty or no, we're gonna play this game again. Sure, who's gonna make it.

Jordan Davis last year, Remember I text you. I was like, I can't wait for Jordan Davis to run under five tonight. He thought I was kidding. Um, he's spectacling. You want a little Patriots adjacent coaching news real quick? Before he finished, the Dolphins have fired Josh Boyer, Steve Gregory, and Steve Ferrens. So so Boyer and Boyer was here as a coach, Gregory was here as a player. Steve Ferens is the brother of James Ferns and the son of Kirk Ferrens.

So my guess is that Josh Boyer. I think they already might already have too many chefs in the kitchen, and bringing a guy like Boyer back might add another chef. That's yeah. I don't know that they need any defensive coaches. Yeah, and then I think Brian Flores wherever he lands, could take Josh Boyer with him. But although if they're gonna bring in a new free safety, having Steve Gregory teach that guy, Josh Boyer's downfall is that he blitz is

too much. He's so in love with the blitz and it's like all he can do right, and they just didn't have the corners on the outside to be that man heavy. Yeah all right, what's number two on your list? Your tackle? Your rinky dink click tackle tackle? They need it. And this is why I wouldn't take in jigbid fort. We would literally have the same list pretty much if you didn't get one perfect love it. Um. They need a tackle? Yeah, well, not to spoil my number one.

They need two tackles. They're going to need two tackles. Goodness, and Isaiah wins contract is up Trent Brown, they save like six million dollars if they more now? Is it more now? Because so I went down this rabbit hole the other day because Pat's cap biguel, he tipped me off to it. Trent Brown hit all of his playing time incentives okay this year because he didn't get hurt like he normally does. Right, So those all hit the

cap in twenty twenty three. So I believe that Trent Brown's contract is now eleven and a half million dollar hit in twenty twenty three, and that all comes off the book if they caught him like all of it. Besides, like the the down payments about, they're gonna need two tackles. They can go out trade for wide receiver position they traditionally haven't developed. They developed tackles. Well, it's a good

tackle class in free agency and in the draft. Yeah, quarterback can't do anything if he's on his asshole game right tackle tackle, tackle, Yeah, it is my second biggest need. You can ask me number one in it, but I have tackle is number two on my list. Number one on my list is tackle. Okay, I almost put receiver ahead of it. This is the old age old argument, right, like protection or the receiver. The Bengals went receiver, and they it's worked out for them. But I think that

Burrow makes it work out. Right. The fact that Burrow is so inflappable under pressure, I think it makes it work out. So that's why Burrow works for him. I think other teams might have misstepped there and probably should have got like Miami for instance, they went waddle, right, they got the receiver too, and now to us in concussion protocol for the third time. Right, the Chiefs early on too, I would say, I mean they fixed it since,

but the Chiefs early on you. So I think with the type of quarterback that you have with his numbers this year, under pressure being as terrible as they were. They need to go out and they need to get not not just I'm with you on the volume. Yeah, but I want like Matt light right, like I want the left tackle that's going to be the left tackle for the next ten years on this team, and that I think is going to have to be the fourteenth

overall pick. So Broderick Jones, Pierre Paris Johnson from Ohio State and uh or whatever, Skawanski and I'm telling you right now, Evan, I think Dwan Jones gets his name into the first round conversation. Now, he's a right tack, well, he can play both, he's primarily a right tackle. But we'll get to number one on my list in a second.

There's a way that works. Yeah. So out of what I've seen and I haven't I started with receivers because they're the most fun, what everybody wants, it's the most fun. But even watch Ohio State. From what I see, I like Roderick Jones the best lots alike, right, And I think the biggest reason why I like him the best is because his his athleticism and his range I think is the best. You've seen those plays where he pulls out when they run the ball and he goes out

to the Edgy Smokes corner. Yeah, that's fun, right, And I think that type of athleticism in an offense where a lot of your yards are going to be based off a yak, right, and you're talking about screens, you're talking about RPO game, you're talking about that type of stuff. I think that that athleticism would really help. And he's just a monster. He's like six six something six six five three fifteen. So here's the kicker though, with those types of guys, the fourteen's pushing it like, I don't

know if he's gonna be there. I think here's the thing, because those types of tackles go top ten, right, like those types of I mean last year was what like cross and those guys they would like one like five, six seven, like right, they were all off the board. But so a bunch of those guys just went I don't I don't think there's a lot of teams around the league necessarily looking for a tackle. Right now, there's four guys, maybe five, A lot of people like Anton

Harrison from Oklahoma. I'm not as familiar with him. Yeah, but between they might not get their pick, but one of those four or five guys will be on the board at fourteen, and I think there's at least three, potentially five franchise tackles in this draft. So right, like you you like Brodrick, I don't know if you watched Scarronsky at all a little bit, but I just I'm not using Paris Johnson because I know you have a

thing about Ohio state tackles. Yeah, we can give that taken, like you like Roderick Jones, but you can be upset if they end up with Peter Scarronski. Absolutely not. I'm not going to be a guy that's but I potential

franchise tackle. I and looking. I'm not saying that they should trade, like, you know, five picks to move up, but like, this is one of those drafts where I think you need to be in the conversation of moving up, you know, from fourteen to ten, right or at fourteen to eleven, I just the leap frog a team that that might be taking your guy. So you want an interesting thing here, I'm looking at the board right now. The guys were talking about this is the board we use. Yeah,

they're projected to go eleven twelve thirteen. So if you have to go and move up from fourteen to eleven to get Broderick Jones or to get your guy and make sure you get him, that it's the same thing as moving up from fifty four to fifty to get type. I don't think that, Like I don't. It depends how much they have to give up. The gap between Jones and Scronsky and Johnson isn't so big that you need to sell the farm to get any one of those three. They should be able to make work. Yeah, they should

be able to turn into a franchise. Tacks fair. So tackle number one on my list, So I'm tackle, wide receiver, yeah, outside corner, free, safety, linebacker. What's your dumb number one? I'll go five to one, safety corner, wide receiver. Tackle number one is punter. Because now I'm kidding, you're about to shut my micaf shut locked out. No, I was like, how can we mute him right now? Safety, corner, wide receiver, tackle and tackle because I can. Because Evan, I'll tell

I did this with corner last year. I did this with corner last year. I'll tell you that's almost as bad as putting punter. Listen, it's not the game. The game. This is the game, because listen to me. If they let's say, let's say free agency started today and they signed Mike McGlinchey Orlando Brown, those are the top two tackles in free agency. If we if they made that signing and then we did the list again, I would

still have tackle number one. That's fair. So that's why it's one and two because even if they add a tackle, tackle is still the biggest need on the list. Once they add that second, then we get into the other positions. But and that's why I said, you know, maybe they really like Orlando Brown. If you're gonna tell me that they're gonna sign Orlando Brown and draft Dwan Jones and Brown's playing on the left side and Jones planning on the right side, Yeah okay, that works, Yeah, that works.

You know, I think that's as good of a plan as um like, uh, mcglinchey's the top right tackle, right right, that's as good of a plan as if they go scronts in McGlinchey. Yeah right. So there's ways they can mix and match it, which is even more reason why I think they don't necessarily need to push to move up but draft one, sign one, it's gonna be. That's one of these catch phrases of the off season for

this show. What do you think they're gonna call? And people are gonna call in what do you want them to a tackle? Draft one, sign one? People are gonna email in what do you want to do? A tackle? Draft one, sign one, Draft one sign one d OsO Dso that's the model for the off season. I like, so I like the MCTA with the left tackle in

the draft. I do, okay because mcglinchey's your right tackle, right and plug and play at right tackle, and then you get the left tackle who has maybe a little bit of a higher ceiling in the draft, and you go that direction. But I'm just saying, like if they walked away with Orlando yeah, every Lando Brown and Duan Jones, it's not like, oh my god, what are they doing? They're screwing. Like I'm like, all right, you have an

offensive line. I just think Orlando Brown worries me because of the weight that once you pay is he Trent Brown? Like once you pay a guy like that Andre Dillard And I've concerns about him too. But my point being like I just like McGlinchey, I think he's some player than Francisco. I think in San Francisco he was fine.

But I really think that he's been miscasting that system because he's a six foot eight, three hundred and thirty pound right tackle that they're trying to get to run outside zone, true, right, and so like, if you get that guy McGlinchey I'm talking about, and you put him next to on WHENU and you run gap to that, so you're gonna run for twelve yards of care, right, Like that's that's just a But at the same time, I would say, what's what's one win? Who's six two

three sixty five three? Yeah? They listened at like three forty a right, Duwan Jones is sixty eight three sixty Oh yeah, No, it's you put those two guys next to each other. You're going to run. You can run that debt debt QB power with net Jones. You're gonna run forever behind those two. Okay, So yeah, we're both on the same page with tackle. Got a few more calls and then we'll make the big announcement. All right, Uh, Mason,

what's going on? Mason? You're on the air. You there not I know Mason, all right, we can call it back in Mason. And so we got a question the email and then we got one more phone. Not trying to sway from your personnel talk. Yes, thank you, we needed to get that out there. But mentioned today, Hardba mentioned today that Lamar Jackson would be involved in their OC hiring process. Do you think Mac is sitting in on the Patriots OC interviews or has some input or

anything like that. Do you think Max should have input on the OC? Yes? Okay, yeah, I don't know that he's gonna be sitting in the meetings, but we all know which way he's gonna go, right right, He's gonna want O'Brien. Yeah, so, and you know it, after a rough year, they're gonna hire O'Brien. Anyway, Hey, Mac, who do you want? Just ask him before you know you're

gonna make that higher anyway. I have no problem with Mac, Like, let's just say little offseason project for you, Mac, Just make make you make you us a list, like who's your three guys? Right? It doesn't mean that they're going to listen to anything that he says, but it would be nice to know where the quarterbacks heads at. I don't think that he has any sway, and I don't think that he necessarily should, especially after the year that he just had, but I think that he should. Like

he's not Lamar Jackson. He's not. He's not right sowhile he's gone, Like is he gonna be in Baltimore for whoever he wants? Harbaugh said today that he's their quarterbacks, so they're trying to full court press it. My guess is that Greg Roman was in Lamar had grown apart and that that marriage was not good, and so they moved on from Greg Roman today to Free add Up. So maybe they're trying to make that that that happened in Baltimore. I like, I want Mac to have a voice.

I don't want him to have a say. How about that? Is that? Sure? Yeah? Okay, all right, Mason, you're back. Uh So I'm usually a weapons with a Z guy, admittedly, but I do actually think that we should take a tackle this year in the first round. But I actually wanted to talk about a guy in the second round that I think would actually be a steel who is my personal wide receiver one this year, which I know that's gonna make some people say hmm, but can I

guess who it is? A dominant to catch point? He's gonna be a four or four guy easy at six to two o five. He's explosive, and my personal ProComp for him is a J. Brown. I think he's gonna be really special. What would you guys think about somebody like that in the second round? If we can get him there? Our board has him mocked to the Patriots at forty six. There you go. So I think that there is very good depth in this receiver class. And I know you've been saying this to me for a while.

Guys like Zay Flowers, who I think is the who are you thought he was going? That's everybody. Everybody's like, you know, Zay Flowers isn't a projected first round pick, but I think he'd be a steal. If everybody thinks Zay Flowers is a steel, He's not a steel. Yeah. Josh Downs right from North Carolina, that's my guy. Yeah, I love me some Josh Down. And then I've heard a lot of buzz from from this SMU kid too, So there's some day two guys for sure. Can I

give you the real wild card in this group? And I don't know how the Patriots are gonna feel about him. This goes back to your point of I forget exactly what it was when you talk about in jigbud and taking the guy that doesn't necessarily you know, the guy who sat out. Yeah. So Kashawn Boutet was the consensus number one receiver in this class for most of the season.

He so last year's great twenty twenty one, he's great, struggling in twenty twenty two, but the offense really struggled in twenty twenty two as a whole, Like it was kind of a mess there. He announced he was going back to school. Then a couple days later, this might have all been within like a day or two, they said he wasn't even though he was going back to school, he wasn't playing in the ball game. They never called it a suspension. Yeah, but the school said he wasn't

playing in the ball game. And then he announced he was going to the draft. And there's been some rumors as to what happened in terms of some off field stuff, some party related stuff. I don't want to put anything out there that's not confirmed, But now nobody really knows where to put him. His talent wise, like he did at one point look like a wide receiver one in the draft, but you know he had a down year. He's had this this thing. You go back to the

twenty twenty one draft. The Patriots took a bunch of guys who were really good two years before they were drafted, right, our guys who are coming off injuries or whatever. So they have been into that kind of guy. Do they see Boutet? And this is one of those things where there might be stuff off the field that we just don't know. Yeah, and that he's gonna be sitting there in the fifth round, We're gonna be all like, what's happening? Right? But are they going to see him as an untouchable?

I could just as easily be convinced that they're going to see him as a value pick in the second round. It's gonna be really interesting to see how his stock develops. Yeah, So I don't know, have you watched him? I have watched him live a little bit, but not not deep into it yet. But I think it's interesting about this class at wide receiver, and I would say to a

degree at corner too. Yeah, I think you're gonna hear a lot of it's a deep class, but there's no Jamar Chase, right Like, it's a deep wide receiver class, but there's no uh, Marvin Harrison's junior. Like that's next year. I told you what my draft strategy would be. Just draft Marvin Harrison junior. Tellbab league to deal with it.

That that. I think you're gonna hear a lot of that, But I really think, right yeah, But from what I can't speak on the corners, but from what I've seen out of these wide receivers that I've I've studied so far, I think that's selling some of these guys a little bit short. Like I'm not. I don't think that Jackson Smith and Jigba and Jordan Addison or Jamar Chase level prospects. But those guys are number one pick, first round pick wide receiver prospects every single year, right like every year.

I don't think that there's a big difference between Jackson Smith and Jigba in the tape that you know, Jerry Judy and Ceedee Lamb and those guys put out a couple of years ago, right like that. I think that that's my point is those guys, I think our first round picks in twenty twenty three as if they were in twenty nineteen. So there might not be a Calvin Johnson, Jamar Chase, Matt Marvin Harrison junior prospect. But the Patriots are are also not picking that high, right, so they

don't need that guy. There's a lot of guys you say, I love his game, but yeah, that's basically what it is. Yes, our butts uh argon Argin, Yep, yep, I'm here. Hey, well tell me how you pronounce your name so I know, uh yeah, so you actually pronounced it. H you pronounced my name Argin? Yeah? Cool, awesome? What's up? All right? So I'll just get quicked from that point. So, you know, you guys have been talking a lot about you know, our draft class and like our you know signed one,

you know draft one. So I've just been like thinking, like for me personally, like I hear a lot about these rumors. I know, like this might be outlandish, but something like Dylan Ramsey or like someone like Dape. I guess I'll be get a million questions about about that guy, like what do you guys think, like as far as like where should be like you know what what you guys would give up for him, and like you guys really think they're a trade target and like you know, okay, yeah,

perfect question, Argent corner with Jalen Ramsey. So the Rams bill came do I hate that saying with the NFL, but quite frankly, that's the truth. Sean mcvay's back, Aaron Donald maybe today he said he's gonna be back. Okay, he clarified that Matthew Stafford back, but who knows what the album? Who knows back on the roster, right, So I don't know if McVay and Donald are back. I don't think the Rams are in full cell mode yet. I think they had they almost have to just go

for it again. Yeah, they don't really have much of a choice. So I'll say this too in terms of Ramsey, he didn't have a great year. Yeah, he's going back to the super Bowl last year. I mean he's not looked like that number one corner. I wouldn't give up a ton for him, Yeah, I wouldn't. And with that contract too, Like in this draft class and all of it pass, Okay, As DeAndre Hopkins and the Patriots just interviewed Bill O'Brien or this morning. It was Breer Albert

Brier out of some context. The interview took place this morning. So here's the question that I think everybody's gonna ask with Bill O'Brien is is that I mean you're out on Hopkins because of their Their divorce in Houston was not pretty. Hopkins has been on the record saying that the drama was a little bit overblown, that it's not as bad as it really was made out to be in some of the stories that came out about it.

But at the end of the day, Hopkins is gonna have some options and I don't know if he really wants to be married again with Bill O'Brien. With that being said, just take that off the board for a second. Yeah, just in terms of pure draft capital, like what are you giving up for DeAndre Hopkins second round pick in a future top one fifty. I think that gets it down. I'm with you on the second round pick. So here's the thing. His value has been set. He was traded

three years ago. That trade I know it was, but this is how teams look at it, and and as bad of a trade as it was, what's happened since he caught a peed suspension. Yeah, only one of the three seasons he's played over. He's played over ten games, and he crossed the age thirty barrier. So even if even if you say a going off of that trade is wrong because it was so lopsided, you're gonna use it as a base one way or the other, and

then you bring in all those other factors. That was a second, a fourth, and whatever was left of David Johnson, Right, So does a second and a fourth get it done? I think so like a second in a future fourth, and I think they got like a fourth or fifth back or something Hawkins straight up for this year's second and a twenty twenty four fourth. Yeah, I'll go pick him up from the airport. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that as well. Fourteen is totally out of

the question. Fourteen No, yeah, no, that's that's like if I really have to give it up to get Jerry Judy. No, if it's like fourteen for like Judy and the Broncos second, which is gonna be like thirty, Like I'm saying I put it in the conversation, I wouldn't do it straight up, yeah, but I would at least discuss that as an option. That's Judy, who's twenty six, right, and it's been healthy and all of that, right, Judy. I think I would talk about it with Higgins. Right. I don't know if

I would do it with either, but I would. I would. I would put it if I'm gonna get like a second round pick back and maybe some future picks. Like at that point, it's fourteen for Higgins and it's fourteen for Judy, and yeah, the Cardinals called and said, all right, we want fourteen for Hopkins. Gonna say, what else are you gonna give me? Right, You're gonna give me whatever pick they have ten to eleven. And if you're a Denver, not to get too down the rabbit hole here. They

just gave up everything for Russell Wilson. They need a pick, they need to pick. They need a pick. Yeah, right, so it's it's not a horrible path, all right, Eldred, what's up? Hey? Good, Hey Alegins, name's Alex. That's fine, But I would I wouldn't give a fucking for Hopkins. Go to the aage. I've got to give a third and a fourth. That's fair because of the age and everything else. I wouldn't give a sucke. I look, I just think that's what it's gonna take to get it done.

I'm not saying that that's the best scenario, but okay, that's fair, just fair, take that's fairy. Okay. My question is I don't have problem with is I like to do offers the guys they're interviewing or whatever. But I'm like, I'm with you Evans. If it ain't. If it ain't O'Brien, I don't know about the other guys, I'd be kind

of worried about it. And um, I did worry about gm on when it comes to the draft and picking, because as this track record, that's what I'd be worried about, you know, unless you listen to somebody else this year, because how last year went, you still got the same guy drafted. And I don't like that board. They always use this guy the same as that guy. You're you're preaching to the choir on the draft right now, Thanks for the call out, I love you. Uh, it's not

the same guy picking. They got Macro now Cole Strange is not a Macro pick, but the rest it feels like a lot changed between their first pick and the rest of the pick. I know, I don't necessary. Marcus Jones, Jack Jones, Bailey Zappye, you know what do it? That all feels to me like though? Is like all the like Marcus Jones went to Houston, right, Bailey Zappy goes to Western like I need. I'm sorry, I need the

twenty twenty one draft again. I need Alabama, Georgia, Oklahoma like Ohio State, like give me because if you miss on those guys, then I can explain it right like I can justify it no matter what, because those guys are name brand, five star, blue chip prospects. When you miss and I'm just saying they necessarily missed, But when you get a player who's good but not great, which is what I think Cold Strange is right now, fine,

solid guard, but he's not Zach Martin, right. And when you get that type of player with this team right now, we're there. It doesn't move the needle. It doesn't move. But here's what i'd say. You know, they wanted speed. Let's use running back as an example. They wanted speed. The fastest forty times for running backs where Pierre Strong was the most at South Dakota State. Yeah, the other there was I remember I did this last year. I don't remember the schools, but of the four top forty times,

only one was a Power five school. You know, right, say you didn't have a ton of fast corners last year. Marcus Jones didn't run, but was a guy that was expected to be. But Marcus Jones is because that word out. I think what they were targeting last year they happened to have to go to small schools to get I don't think they targeted small schools. Okay, to get what I'm saying, I get what you're saying. I just I

go back and I know that. My point of bringing up the eighteen draft is because even though it didn't work out, taking the two Georgia guys at the top was justifiable, right like it made tense. You picked two guys from the Georgia team that went to the National Championship game, just balled out in the College Football playoff, and it makes sense. Yes, they drafted the wrong Georgia running back. Yes, Isaiah Win didn't pan out, but to pick in the moment at the time was just a fay.

But we both loved Trevor Penning last year. We both said they took Trevor Penning, that would be that would work, but that was at a premium position. Went to Northern Aisle. At least we're at a premium position now. At least we've moved from guard putting a lot of qualifiers on this well. I have two qualifiers premium position from a Power five school. I don't think that should be that hard. Huh. All right, we have to make the show announced because

we have to wrap big show announcement. Here we go, drumroll please. Last week we found out that the Patriots will be coaching at the East West Shrine Bowl out in Las Vegas. Last year, they drafted four players from the Shrine Bowl Taekwon, Thornton, Jack Jones, Pierre Strong, Sam Roberts, and they picked up a couple of udfas from the Shrine Bowl as to Eric King and Lebrian Ray catch twenty two and myself and Alex are going to the Shrine Bowl. We're gonna be out there with the team

next week for all three days four days practice. I think it is four days of practice. We're gonna do live shows from Las Vegas after watching Shrine Bowl practices. So each day each day and we're gonna talk about prospects. We're gonna talk about the coaching staff and what we see because the Patriots other than de Marcus Covington are all gonna be there as well. So is Covington not going because there's only one day of overlap, it's potent he potentially could be conn be there at the beginning

of the week. So Cash twenty two goes on the road. Cash twenty two goes to the Shrine Bowl and we'll have you completely covered out in Las Vegas. This is our first time traveling together. It's trying to think about this this morning. No, we travel together at our first No, No, I know, but I think this is our first time traveling together since twenty nineteen. Yes, So Cash twenty two at the Shrine Bowl, we will see. Well you're here from us, from there, from Las We're doing a show

next week. Yeah, we're doing next next week. We'll preview the rosters. All right, until then, signing off, Alex bart Evan Lazar See at the Shrine Bowl. Everybody. Thank you for downloading this podcast, subscribe an Apple, Google Play, and everywhere else you listen. Like the show, Please rate and review us. Listener comments and ratings help keep us high in the podcast rankings so new listeners can find us. Be sure to checkpatriots dot com for more news and more podcasts.