[00:00:00] Welcome my friends to the Pathways in Life Science podcast. I'm your humble host, Patrick Tia. And I am so excited for you to listen to this episode with Jasmine Gria Gray. She is currently the chief marketing officer for Conigin Life Sciences Group and the board member of SAMPS, which stands for Sales and Marketing Professionals in Life Sciences.
[00:00:25] And she definitely has a lot of experience in the marketing realm. In the life science industry. And I'm personally fascinated about marketing the different methods that's been used over the many years. And how that's changing now, uh, based on attention spans, social media, and how that changed the game, et cetera.
[00:00:46] Jasmine has a lot of insights towards that and we get in deep there. All right. I'll leave it at that and enjoy. How are you? Nice to see you again. Nice to see you too. Nice to see you too. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. I had a chance to check out your background on LinkedIn.
[00:01:03] You have a more straightforward path than some, kind of like mine, within the science industry. But I know there's been some pivots for you, especially it looks like you started your own consulting company back in February of 2013. So I'm sure there's got to be a Something there that happened. So I'm really looking forward to getting to know you as a person and your story.
[00:01:26] And I'm really happy to talk to a fellow Canadian as well. Right. Did I get that right? Absolutely. Yeah. And Montrealer. Oh Montrealer. Okay. Cause I only saw that you did your studies, at least your university studies at U of T. Right. Did you do your undergrad there? I did my undergrad and graduate work.
[00:01:46] Shout out to Professor Desser at the University of Toronto in the parasitology and zoology department. Oh, wow. Okay. That was my next question. What were you studying specifically? So, my undergrad was in microbiology and my graduate work was on a virus in frog red blood cells. It was Pretty early on in the study of this virus, Professor Desser actually had discovered this virus by doing a survey of frog blood and the Algonquin Park actually has a wildlife research station that's supported by, I don't know, five or six Six universities in Ontario, of which the university of Toronto is one.
[00:02:37] And so every summer we would go up to the wildlife research station, catch our frogs. And in my case, I was studying the virus, which was one of the largest known viruses at the time. It was so large that it was just at the limit of detection of the light microscope. Wow. Do you know if at all, is it still prevalent now, that virus or?
[00:03:06] I don't know. Okay. I've sort of lost touch with that research. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a couple of publications with your name on it out there on the internet? Yeah. Nice. Okay. I continued down that path and I was very lucky to get a postdoc at the NIH in Alan Kimmel's lab and was studying a four elated protein that was associated with fat droplets.
[00:03:35] This protein was called perilypin, and I have a couple of publications on that. And then I, I decided to invest, this is my first pivot, I decided To leave the academic world and join the, the business side of science. Well, I was going to ask you about that because obviously you've had a lot of, um, you know, VP director marketing roles right after completing that postdoc.
[00:04:03] Companies like Amrish AMG Healthcare, Diannex. And I think you spent your longest stint at Gyros Protein Technologies. So what attracted you to specifically marketing? Because it seems like that's where you spent the bulk of your career so far. Explain that pivot. Yeah, it was a combination of marketing and product management, what today we often call product marketing.
[00:04:26] And I felt that it was a good way to still use my scientific knowledge and, you know, my continuing curiosity in science and reading publications and bringing that more to the commercial world and being able to translate. Uh, customer needs into products, uh, being able to understand customer pain points and gains and translate that into marketing messaging.
[00:04:56] Yeah. And I'm sure the, your lab experience going through those postdocs really helped not with only that role, but also just in general conversations with end users and customers understanding, you know, what they're sensitive to wanting to see in terms of marketing material, right? Yeah, I completely agree.
[00:05:16] I mean, I think it comes from my comfort of being in the lab and being able, at least at that time, you were able to walk into a lab and look around and talk to researchers sort of in their native element, if you will, and not only learn from talking with them and getting their opinions of things, But also learn from just looking around what else is in the lab.
[00:05:42] How else are they set up from a workflow perspective? Cause that also helps to inform the products as well as marketing. Now, how has marketing changed for you in your opinion from, you know, back when you started at Amersham to, to now? Yeah. It, you know, the, the age old story, I was just at the cusp of the digital age in marketing.
[00:06:09] So when I started, phone calls were still a big part of my marketing toolbox. Conferences were a huge part in person, obviously a huge part, users meetings, a huge part of my marketing toolbox. And obviously over time. Email crept into that, websites crept into that, and all the educational materials in websites, SEO became a bigger part, webinars became a bigger part, especially around, I want to say around 2010, 2011, I really felt that webinars were an important education tool and an important tool in the buyer's journey part of marketing.
[00:06:59] And now with AI, who knows that's going to take on a whole different direction. People say, yeah, technology is supposed to make your life easier in a sense it does. And in another sense, it almost makes it busier as well. You get kind of lost in the data. Do you think there's anything right now, the general sort of marketing practices that are like not useful, but people seem to be still sticking on to, like, for example, you know, email marketing, is that still a thing?
[00:07:26] Is that still useful? Maybe that was good, like, back in the early 2000s, but now it's not really the best bang for your buck, like, those type of examples. Do you have any of those? So, the way I like to think about it is not as individual tools, but as the aggregation of these tools and the aggregation of channels in how to reach people.
[00:07:50] You know, there are all kinds of studies that say you need to hear things and see things somewhere between three and seven times before you're going to take action or before you've started to process what it means for you. And so I still see. Email marketing as part of that comprehensive multi touch point approach.
[00:08:15] I definitely see LinkedIn as a big part of that approach. I see conferences, webinars and so on as this sort of multi touch approach to engaging with people. Yeah. And how do you see AI changing the game going forward with marketing, specifically in our industry? I'm a huge fan from an efficiency perspective.
[00:08:42] Um, it doesn't mean that I'm turning off my brain. It doesn't mean that I'm subservient to AI to doing my job. I see it as a partner in brainstorming. You know, at midnight, Jasmine has a crazy idea. Okay, let's see what Madam Shah, as I call her, has to say about a particular topic. I often find it challenges my thinking to think outside the box.
[00:09:09] So, I'm a huge fan from a marketing perspective. I'm a huge fan for the potential. It's shown in the diagnostics industry, you know, talking about another pivot in my path. For a couple of years, I had the privilege of working for a molecular diagnostics company called Biodesics. And in 2013 2014, Biodesics had one of the first blood based tests.
[00:09:43] Based on machine learning, and this test was based on for non small cell lung cancer, and it was based on mass spectrometry data and looking at the trends of mass spectrometry data of the individual patient. Compared to the control group, so I'm a huge fan and I think that A. I. Is going to have make a lot more inroads in diagnostics.
[00:10:13] It's made great inroads in protein sciences in general with, for example, the alpha fold three model and the Nobel Prize in chemistry based on that. So I think there are a lot of good things that are going to come out of using A. I. It's accelerating at such a fast pace, I think I read somewhere that if we can all hang on to live for another 10 years and let AI figure it out, we're going to be living till, you know, way beyond a hundred.
[00:10:47] We just got to hang in there, Jason. Don't die. I'm not that old, so I think I can do it for another 10 years. I didn't mean it. I didn't mean it by that. I'm including myself in that boat as well. I always wrestle with this, like, I think with AI now. Authenticity is such a big thing. Like people are going to be looking for more authentic, human made content material.
[00:11:10] So in terms of a marketing aspect, like reaching out to end users, cold reach outs or whatnot, I have a sense that people are still turned off if they know it's a robot. Interacting with them or either trying to sell them something or just even like asking questions. Maybe more the deeper questions That's why I think the human touch is still important now But is it gonna come a time where that's gonna be totally fine?
[00:11:36] Like that's gonna be just the norm and said yeah, I'm I'm talking hardcore science and trying to figure out Technical conversations to figure out exactly what I need, what kit I need, or what instrument I need with a robot. And I'm totally cool with that. Later on, what are your thoughts on that? I think that as social people, social animals if you will, we are always going to want to have human interaction?
[00:12:03] Will there be times when, you know, I just want to plug something into my favorite app or into a website and get the answer? Of course those will be their times. I don't think that there will be an easy replacement for that human interaction. And just as we're having a conversation today, and you may start the conversation in one way, and I may say something else that inspires you to go down another way.
[00:12:31] I think the same thing will be true in science and in marketing and in selling and so on. No, no, yeah, humans. There is no replacement for humans. I'm not denying that. I just think that the norm, especially as kids grow up with AI. It's going to be less of a, I think, important thing for society. I'm talking like 50 years down the line versus like, for example, like a book now.
[00:13:00] Okay. If you read a book and you know, it's written by human, I guess that means something versus a book that gives you good quality information, just as good written by robot there, there's still that. Oh, it feels weird, but maybe 50 years from now. People would be totally fine with reading a book as long as it gives them the content that they want.
[00:13:17] Right. Who cares if it's written by a robot? Maybe you're right. Maybe it comes down to segmentation, right? Maybe there will be a segment of society that's fine with getting their responses from a chat bot, that's fine with knowing that a book was written by a bot, and is not interested. I'm not interested in meeting the author and is not interested in going to these coffeehouses and hearing an author read the book.
[00:13:45] So that may be one segment. No idea how big a segment that is. But I still think that there's going to be a segment that will care about human interaction. That will care that Pat is walking through the door. I know Pat's interested in selling me something, but I'm happy to see Pat. And I would rather see Pat than a robot or a chatbot.
[00:14:11] I'd love to believe that as well.
[00:14:16] You know, even if it even requires of like, to come back to the book, because I'm going to pay more for that book written by a human. There's a segment that will do that. Like you said, the size of the segment was still yet to be seen, but if you navigate through the corporate world marketing, you've done very important roles.
[00:14:35] And then all of a sudden, 2013, you decided to start your own consulting companies. How did that come about? Yeah. Um, it was a time in my career where I'd been extremely fortunate and had a lot of great opportunities at larger companies. And I did some self reflection and I was curious to know whether I was capable of not only doing marketing within the life sciences, but could I do marketing outside the life sciences?
[00:15:10] Or was that tied to my own scientific knowledge? So strong that I, I couldn't break it and I couldn't expand into other markets. So that was the, the question I was trying to solve for myself. And I was lucky to be able to consult for both companies within the life sciences, as well as companies outside the life sciences.
[00:15:36] And what I learned was. The process is the same. So whether you're talking about figuring out pricing and pricing strategy, whether you're talking about putting together campaigns for a specific goal, the process and the steps of how to think about it are the same, whether you're in life sciences or whether you're in plastics.
[00:16:05] That's interesting. So I guess, yeah, transferable skills, right? Exactly transferable skills. And also there's a lot that we in the life sciences could learn from other industries, from the consumer side, from our consumer selves as a target audience that I think most marketers in the life sciences are only at the tip of the iceberg right now in learning from these other industries.
[00:16:34] I agree. I always felt that our industry was just a couple of steps behind from obviously the tech industry, but even other industries in terms of tools to use and even AI now, you know, there's a lot of my network that's working for big companies and I'm just shocked that AI is still not widely implemented in what they do on a day to day basis.
[00:16:56] I wonder why. My hypothesis is that it comes from two things. One, we, we have grown up with the, I think it's the myth, that scientists, our target audience, only care about the facts, only care about the specifications, only see the world through that lens. And so if you're going to market to them, if you're going to be a product manager, if you're going to be selling to them, it's only the specifications.
[00:17:30] And I think that that is a myth. I think the other aspect that has held our industry back is the majority of people on the corporate side have come from a scientific background. And so they've perpetuated the myth. There's a lot of technical jargon. When Apple came out with the iPod, When other people start making iPods, they were focusing on the technical.
[00:18:03] Features and benefits and what apple did so well was instead of saying hey, you know This this thing only this small this size this weight and has this feature all apple said was that um You you can have a thousand songs in your pocket, right? you know and that right away just connected with everybody on such a simple level whether you're Your phd or you're 13 year old kid.
[00:18:27] You understood the magic in that what a thousand songs in my pocket What that really stuck with me? I'm trying to apply that. I think our industry could use more of that. I completely agree. I think using analogies. To our consumer to our, you know, day to day lives outside of our work can only help resonate more and can only help us stand out from others in the industry in a way that That really considers the job that your customer has to do right there.
[00:19:03] Their job isn't to know those specifications. They're not going to be able to publish more based on knowing the sophistication of a mass spectrometer, but they are going to be able to publish more knowing what kind of data they get out of it, knowing that connection. To nature and to biology and those sorts of analogies, I think are going to become super important.
[00:19:30] What I'm also seeing is a little bit more of a trend of non scientists being hired in marketing communications, which I think is absolutely a positive thing. Absolutely. I think one thing I admire about you is you're constantly learning. I see your posts on LinkedIn and you're constantly pushing these conferences, going to these conferences.
[00:19:57] And one of the questions I had is, yeah, you touched upon a little bit, but the trend, what is the trend in the marketing space right now in our industry? So you said one of them was, you know, hiring people from the outside. Anything else? I'm seeing more of a trend of agencies being used. So this realization that companies don't need to have all the resources internally and can leverage.
[00:20:27] Agencies that have core competencies in SEO that have core competencies in writing content as examples and and almost leveling up by using these agencies. I mean, that holds, especially true for startups and smaller companies, but you're saying even you see even like the bigger companies outsourcing, it's like a pharma outsourcing a CRO to do their work.
[00:20:54] Yeah. That makes sense. Most recently, lean focus. What's that about? Are you still doing your consulting with this or how does that work? Yeah. I'm consulting about 25 percent of the time. I have my own consulting as well as I have a consulting practice within this bigger company called Lean Focus. Lean Focus's mission is to help transform companies based on lean processes.
[00:21:27] So it's not so much about hiring more people or using more project managers, it's all about being smarter and and building more efficiency in through processes, which really resonates with me as a scientist. And I've tried to bring in that sort of thinking in my marketing and product management career as well.
[00:21:54] The other aspect of what I'm doing recently is working as part of a non profit for an organization called SAM. which is sales and marketing professionals in the life sciences and the mission of SAMHSA sort of directly ties what we've been talking about is around career development for sales and marketing professionals in our industry through education and networking.
[00:22:25] So this is another great opportunity for sales and marketing professionals to continually learn. Not only from the theory, but also from other professionals in the industry who, um, have gone through many of the different pitfalls that some of our younger colleagues haven't yet gone through. Wow. Okay.
[00:22:49] You just sold me. I'm definitely wondering where to sign up. It's free. Membership is free. We have webinars just about monthly and we have two annual events. That's one in the US, which is usually around December. And then we have one in Europe, which is coming up on April 3rd. So yeah. Shameless plug there.
[00:23:09] Sorry about that. No, all good. Yeah. I mean, as you know, that's what my agency does, so I'd be remiss not to check it out. So thanks for that. And I got to ask you, where do you see this whole tariff thing with Trump going and in our industry specifically? Are you seriously going to get political on me, man?
[00:23:26] No, I mean, it's like current news, it's like on everyone's mind. I just wanted your opinion in terms of, do you know if it's going to affect our industry at all? I've spoken to people in our industry, they have no clue yet. That's okay too. I don't know. What I do know Is the politicization of science is a real thing that has only been negatively trending upwards since the pandemic.
[00:23:53] This is another thing that is near and dear to my heart, which is really. being crisper at communicating science and what it means for the average person in a way that they can consume and understand and put into practice. And as a scientific community, I think we've got a lot more work to be done there.
[00:24:20] I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, so I'll leave it at that. I understand exactly what you're talking about. As science people, we're sensitive to these things. And, you know, this just came up, obviously, a couple of days ago. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see where this goes.
[00:24:37] One aspect is we gotta focus on the science. And we got to focus on the good and do whatever we can to better humanity. It is not a political thing. And that's hopefully what most people focus on. There's no fear of facts. Science is all about the facts. Sure, do scientists get things wrong sometimes? Of course, we're human, and that's when we publish again and correct our facts or put out amendments to correct the facts, but they are facts.
[00:25:12] It has nothing to do with politics. Well, Jasmine, I gotta tell you, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I could probably talk to you for hours on end. And I think it hits a little different, speaking from a Canadian, speaking to a Canadian. The country is definitely more patriotic than I've ever seen, and um We're just all banding together.
[00:25:31] It's pretty nice. That's one good thing that's come out of this is we've looked in the mirror or turned towards ourselves to say, hey, how can we work better together? Whether it's inter provinces or business down the street, whatever. That's been a positive thing for Canadians, I find. I love it. I am very proud to be a Canadian.
[00:25:52] And I'm especially proud of the extra spine we've grown over these last few weeks. Like Trudeau said in his speech, it's not going to be easy, but we'll get through it together. Absolutely. Well, there you have it. There's Jasmine. I could have spent hours talking to her about marketing. I'm always fascinated with the psychology around marketing and how do you change someone's behavior and habit with an ad, uh, audio ad, a video ad, whatever.
[00:26:22] These days you probably have to see it more than once. But that always has fascinated me, especially in our industry, and uh, so happy that Jasmine found the time to, uh, get together and discuss, even for half an hour. Really appreciate that. Full disclosure, with my life science sales agency, Northstar Scientific, I work with Jasmine on a regular basis.
[00:26:42] And just getting to know her in that setting, I knew she'd make a great podcast guest and had a lot of insights into many different things, especially around marketing though. So, woo, glad we got that done. If you're interested in checking out our LinkedIn site, definitely check out Northstar Scientific and you'll see bits and clips of our podcast on there.
[00:27:07] Or if you want to Listen to a full podcast and get a visual representation of it. Please check us out on YouTube at North star scientific. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.