Pastors' Perspective - 06/25/2025

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4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, joining us today. Yes, it's Wednesday. He's normally only here on Mondays, but he's here today. Thank you, Char,

and to show His love to others. Do you believe that most churches are preaching a gospel that is just about getting into heaven? Has there been any research concerning this matter? Sure.

And, you know, what you're going to see on the internet, you know, sometimes is clickbait, you know, so it's gonna be, you know, this pastor said this and it's, you know, off doctrinally, it's heretical, whatever it might be, you know, that's the stuff that people are going to click and they're gonna want to see and the stuff that people

are gonna want to talk about. But unfortunately, you know, the churches that are just faithfully preaching the gospel and what we would say is, you know, the reign of God, allegiance to Jesus, the king, following in the way of Jesus, loving their neighbors, doing mercy and justice. You know, that kind of work is not gonna make the headlines, you know, people don't, they overlook that kind

of stuff. And then I think sometimes too, like, you know, we can kind of try to define ourselves by what we're not, you know, and so we can kind of throw stones at other churches and compare, you know that. Well, we're really, you know, the church that's teaching the truth and who knows what that church over there is doing, and I think we just need to be careful about

that stuff. I think we can talk about cultural, um, you know, the Culture of discipleship in the church, and um the need to always be, you know, self-reflective um are we walking in the way of Jesus, you know, think about the letters to the churches, the book of Revelation, how Christ is commending and yet he's saying, hey, and these are the things that I have against you. And so he's wanting to correct, bring us into line with him, or Paul, you know, he wants to bring us into line with

the way of the spirit. And so, you know, I, I hope that each church community is doing that. As being introspective, self-reflective about, you know, what are the areas that we need to refine and, you know, come into, um, Yeah, agreement with the way of Jesus and the work of the spirit. So, Dave, I mean, what do you think?

you know, you see a return to church. You see people really wanting to know Jesus and making equipment to Jesus and I think the more we keep focused people, how do we follow Jesus, how do we obey Jesus, that's where we're gonna get more people into the, into the true nature of what it means to be a follower of Jesus, not just a ticket to heaven, that's punch, but actually like. I'm obeying Jesus with my lifestyle and my with my beliefs.

And so I think there's a lot there. I know our dean at Stetzer at Talbot has been going across the country in the lead the way tour for Talbot Seminary and basically talking about these ideas about there's been a renewed interest in the gospel, um, across the country. Yeah,

Luke's theme of the way, John's theme. So, yeah, it's just so refreshing. Yeah.

the word, and the Word was with God. I completely understand how God created Himself. In the form of a man and put Jesus on earth with a body, but I'm confused about how Jesus is even considered to be God in the form of a man if he already existed in his own spirit from the beginning. This leads me to believe that even from the beginning, God and Jesus were two separate spirits. So I guess my question is, despite what I truly believe and know.

That Jesus is God. How can Jesus be God if they are two separate spirits and identities from the very beginning? Please help me understand this and ease my mind about this confusion. Please help me to answer this question in conversations, especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. Char, what do you say to

within the Godhead, Father, son, and spirit. And so, Even, you know, and some of these things, you know, are just, when we just think about them logically within the narrative of scripture, it's like, oh, OK, you know, all the ways in which the spirit of God is referred to as God, or it could be referred to as the spirit of Jesus, the way that the spirit shares divine attributes with Yahweh, the way that Jesus shares divine attributes with Yahweh. They are all worship, they all

share these attributes. So we see these things, even though, you know, the scripture doesn't say, You know, Jesus is God, like right on the nose, the way that you maybe the Jehovah's Witness want us to produce, you know, or maybe the Mormons want us to produce. And yet, if you have eyes to see, it really

is everywhere. You know, I just mentioned a moment ago today that we're teaching through the Gospel of Mark on Sunday mornings, and it's incredible to see the way that Mark is actually developing Yahweh's second exodus that he will perform, that these are all the things that Jesus himself is doing. He is identifying himself with Yahweh, who will Come, who will regather his people, he will heal the blind, he will heal the deaf, and he will bring them

onto the highway of holiness. These are things that see that Yahweh will do, and Jesus is the one that is doing them, and he's receiving worship, he's receiving declarations about his identity. And so we could talk, you know, about so many scriptures, we haven't even mentioned the Gospel of John yet. But I think just taking us back to the beginning, just for a moment, right, when God says, you know, come, let us make mankind in our image, male and female

is what he creates. And so when God creates humanity in his image, he creates two, not singular, not one, and there is within humanity, right, relationship and dynamic and dynamics, excuse me, it's not static. And so we should understand even from the creation of humanity that God Himself, what it means to bear his image is to be a communal being. And so God creates us after Himself, who is a community, and I could go on and on, but, you know, Dave,

have one God in these three persons. And I think one of the greatest stories from the Gospel, John, that sets up our confidence that Jesus is the true God as as working out the will of His Father even on earth. It's actually in John 10, and it's, it, it's the head of when the Jews, uh, are just in rebellion against Jesus and pushing back and he's done these miracles and, and, and the Jews actually just come flat and ask him, how long are you gonna keep in the suspense? Tell us,

are you the Christ, right? Just tell us, are you the one we've been waiting for? And he's like, I've done all these miracles and you don't believe. And, and he basically says, those who are my father are mine and And he makes that famous statement in John 10:30 that

I and the Father are one. And yes, our Joe and his friends are going to take that as being like they're unified, they're on the same team, but the Jews knew exactly what he was saying because they picked up stones to stone him and he's like, why are you gonna stone me? He's like, What miracle? And they say, because you A mere man claimed to be God and the Greek word they used their theos, which is used only for the one true God. And so the Jews knew exactly

who Jesus was claiming to be as. He wasn't just a god, he wasn't just the spirit of God. He was God. And, and that was where they just said we're done with you.

the Corinthians, it just is. And also, when, you know, when we consider, you know, we read Philippians too, and we think, oh wow, this, this is really cool thing, you know, Jesus went on this journey of humility, you know, he wasn't with God in the form of God, but then he went on this journey of humility, you know, to the point of death, and death on the cross. Therefore God's highly exaltedative given him.

Uh, the name which is above every name, and we're like, that's cool, Jesus is gonna get a new name, and we don't recognize, cause maybe we don't know our Jewish scriptures, that the name is Yashem. It's the, the, you know, the Jews would not say the name of God, so they would only refer to him as the name, and he is the name that is above every name. And so what Paul is showing there is that Jesus Christ shares in the very name of God. I mean, this is just astounding stuff that Paul is

just unpacking for us, you know, here. And so again, You know, I, I think the problem is scripture doesn't You know, if we don't know our Bibles, and we don't understand the historical context of these things, you know, and what these things meant to the original hearers, you know, we're like, oh, he doesn't say he's got, you know, he says he's one, and husbands and wives are one, like you said, Dave, you know, and so I think the unfortunate thing is that we're forcing our cultural context

and the way that we use language upon the scriptures, and therefore we're blind. To the blatant stuff that Jesus is saying here, and I, I was just thinking as you were saying it, David, it's profound that they're like, tell us plainly if you're the Christ, and he goes one better, right? He's like, uh, yeah, but you don't even get it. I'm more than that, you know, I am Yahweh here presently. It's just astounding.

But we don't equate the apocrypha with the Jewish can. In other words, they were books that were added on and included more for historical reference, um, and I think they're included this so they didn't lose that historical reference, not, not because they had some significant teaching in them, but they're more just the, these are the things that are happening in Israel in that gap period when God was silent.

And so that there are definite certain Uh, denominations, Catholicism, and other eastern, uh, denominations that hold on to those teachings, but we do not equate them to be the same level of Canon authority as we would, um, the 66 books of the Old Testament and New Testament Bible, but to my knowledge, the apocrypha is the main difference in uh in what we would have together. Any thoughts from you,

reading through that. It is so helpful for understanding. The Jewish mindset concerning the Gentiles at that time. And so you really get like a deeper insight to like, like what's the big deal here? Like, why are they treating Jesus this way? He's just helping people, you know, yeah,

they're Gentiles, but what's the problem? Why, you know, why are they so concerned about the washing of hands and, and you realize, you know, how the religion Religious leaders had taken on the tradition of the elders and were actually forcing Israel to practice Levitical like cleanliness with washings and ceremonies and all these things. And the idea in their mind is that if we keep Levitical righteousness, then the kingdom will come, then Messiah will appear. And

so they're so strict concerning these things. This is all to do with questions of fasting that Jesus has asked about washing of hands, um, You know, coming from the marketplace, and these things are happening again and again and then and again, and in the book of Jubilees, I mean, there's this retelling of the story of Dinah. And the application is, if any Jewish family were to marry a Gentile, even a converted gentile, they would be

burned to death or stoned to death. I've got, I was quoting it just two weeks ago, and I was just blown away by, you know, the, basically, you know, the stance of these religious leaders at the time. So, all that to say, Some of this can be so incredibly helpful for understanding cultural context. But again, like Dave said, we don't take

this as scripture. We would use this in the same way that we would use, you know, kind of like a um A Bible commentary, you know, a contextual commentary, just like, OK, this is what people believed at that time, these are the practices of the day, super helpful, not authoritative for salvation, for following in the way of Jesus or any of those things. So, can be really helpful, um, and yeah, it probably be good for Christians to read those and uh chew the meat, spit out the bones.

the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. So, the Jews themselves did not accept these as authoritative, inspired by God, uh, but they were their books, historical books, and some of them have some heavy Greek influence in them as well, and so, you know, the Hellenistic influence in them. Um, but another reason why we as Christians do not accept them is because Jesus himself quotes from I believe almost every single Old Testament book in his ministry,

he never quotes from the Apocrypha. Hm. And the Jewish writers, as far, or excuse me, the New Testament writers, as far as I know, I mean, I'm thinking maybe of Jude, quoting from the book of Enoch, is the one exception we even have in the New Testament to anybody quoting from the apocrypha. And so, uh, it does not seem that any of the early church considered that this was canon either.

It was always the prophets or the law that Jesus used to explain the Messiah and who he was when he would claim the scriptures, what makes you wise to salvation. Very good, Joseph, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective. And now here's Tony calling in from Rialto. I need you to turn down your radio please, Tony, because I don't want to hear myself talking back to myself.

When he says, you know, to keep the commandments, I know the 10 Commandments are set up for, you know, our moral laws and how we should live, but I know that, uh, uh, this is just my perspective, and I want to hear you all that when he says that for me, I look at it that he's saying we're under grace now. And it should be a thing of, you know, we should supersede that law in a sense by love now.

So it's not that we are commanded to do this, it's like we choose to do these things now because, uh, laws are like uh stipulations and you know it comes to, you know, this is what you have to do when you come to a stop. I stopped because the law says, but I stopped because

I want to, because grace says. And so I just wanted to hear you all's perspective on how you would answer that when people say, Well, you had to keep God's, you know, the commandments, you know, and I know he says by the law no no flesh shall be justified. So what would be your take on this? Oh. Yeah, great question, Tony, just. Yeah, I mean, I guess the bigger question is what is uh a Christian's relationship to the law of Moses?

And I think we need to remember that the law of Moses containing commandments and holidays, traditions, principles in it was given to Israel, and this was given to them, you know, as their religious law, their judicial law, their culture, right?

This is what God is presenting to them, um, and yet, The law of Moses also represents, as you said, you know, especially there in the 10 Commandments, the heart of God, the bedrock of society, and God does this, I, you know, I love this passage where God says, when you live like this, The nations around you are actually gonna say, what other

peoples like these people? They are so righteous in the way that they live with one another, you know, the way they take care of the poor, and, you know, cause all these social justices are, you know, sown through the fabric of this, how we treat our neighbor, how we forgive sins and debts, and all these kinds of things. The nations are gonna look at that and be drawn to know the God that gave these laws, the God

that lives in the midst of these people. And so I think we have to, you know, kind of put ourselves in in that perspective and understand what it meant for them. And then understand where we are at now in the story. So we understand, as you said, that Jesus has come, and he is the fulfillment of the law. And I think NT Wright has helped me better than any one else articulate, that the law isn't bad, it is a sign pointing to something.

And that something is the person of Jesus Christ. And so when Jesus in the sermon on the Mountain was talking about that he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, he has come to fulfill them, to fill them up, to complete them, we should understand that Jesus is the thing that they are all pointing to. And so once you've arrived at Jesus, the thing that all the signs are pointing to, You neither despise the signs, nor do you go back to them and say, oh, sign, let me thank you.

Let me just sit here and and ponder you, right? No, you've arrived, and so, you know, stick with Jesus, and I love what Paul the Apostle is doing, right? He is showing is that Jesus, as you said, you know, has given us a new commandment. And that is to love our neighbor as ourself. First of all, to love God supremely, to love our neighbor

as ourself. And Paul writes there in Romans, and then he also alludes to this in Galatians as well, that to love our neighbor as ourself actually fulfills the whole law. It actually goes, it, it encapsulates all that the law was after, and as Paul says, Something even better happens now. The spirit of God comes into us as individual, and as individuals and teaches us to follow God's law from our hearts.

Because you've probably noticed this in your life, as I have, sometimes there just isn't an answer or a law for the right thing to do in my life. So what do I do? Well, Jesus said, consult your own conscience, you know, um, what would you want somebody else to do for you, right? What does it mean to Love someone. When someone does evil to you, what does it mean to do something that is outstanding and surprises the world around you? What does it mean to love

faithfully like Yahweh? What does it mean to be a peacemaker, right? These are the things that we have to consider in our own lives and our own context, and this is actually how the law of the new Covenant works, right? The spirit working in and through us in our context, my life, my relationships, and like you said, it actually does better than the law ever could have imagined. Dave

The teachings of him and obviously he was reflecting the teachings of the law and the prophets before him as as a relational response. So no longer was it just legalistic, but now it actually was the because I believe who Jesus is, because I love him, I'm going to obey these commands. And so, um, that becomes my now motivation in the process. Very good, Tony, hope that helps. Thanks for calling in today. All right, man?

Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. Find out more about that church at cornerstoneOnline.org. What time are your services at? Uh, 9 and 10:45.9 and 10:45. Very cool. All right. So check that out. If you're looking for a church in that area, cornerstoneline.org. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We can't wait to hear from you. Who do we have coming up? We've got Pebbles. We've got Andrew, we've got Thomas, and we're waiting for

you to call 888-564-6173. Remember, you can send in your questions online too using the Pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger, or you can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram, or you can go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page, fill out the form, and that gets your question to us. But the best way to get an answer is to call 888-564-6173. We shall return. Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number

to call. My name is Brian Perez. Char Broderson and Dave Keene are here to answer your questions for the next 25 minutes. 888-564-6173. Ready for another round, guys?

I definitely believe that um scripture presents a couple different Readings, in other words, I, I believe there's Christians who study scripture and believe wholeheartedly that the church will be taken out before the tribulation, but I also believe there are Christians who read the same scriptures and see that Christians will come to a point of suffering and definitely I think there are seasons of the early church that

resembled what the tribulation is. Uh, personally, I think that, uh, scripture leans on the side at That the Holy Spirit and the church are gonna be removed from physically being present to allow the evil one to reign as much as he will, but I do believe there will be people that come to faith during the tribulation that will Become, you know, Christians here on Earth during that time. So I'm definitely not the expert in that one.

it's an open-handed issue. It's something that we debate, you know, it's kind of a a family issue, we debate it in the house, but this is not what we want to be known for, you know, like, Well, what's your view, you know, well, those people, you know, we reject them because their views different, you know, we want to be known for our love, we want to be known for, you know, standing on the tenants of

the faith, you know, like what the apostles creed proclaims. Um, and so, the one of the reasons I want to bring up for, I think just some of the confusion is, um, some take the thief in the night passages as passages, um, that are talking about. The rapture. But the interesting thing is when you look at these, they seem to be speaking actually of taken away in judgment. And so again, that there's, you know, the jury isn't out on this one. What are these

passages about? Are they about judgment, or are they about salvation, you know, being pulled out of these um trying Um, tribulations in these troubles. I think one thing that we just need to be aware of, and I'm glad that they brought this up, we need to be aware of a Christianity that is devoid of suffering, right? Or if we suffer, then it means that this thing isn't, you know, uh, you know, this is a whole crock, right? Because the way of Jesus is the way of the cross.

It's the way of suffering. It is a way of rejection, it's a way Um, of death. And so, you know, if our whole basis for believing in a pre-tribulational rapture is because we believe that God, you know, doesn't allow us to suffer, then we need to read the Bible again, you know, the Bible is actually from cover to cover, you know, is filled with suffering of righteous people, and yet God's commitment. Faithful love to them. So I think those are just

things that we need to be aware of. Now, when it, uh, just one more thing, when it does come to, you know, there's one passage in scripture that seems to be kind of the linchpin for pre-tribulational views, and that is a passage in First Corinthians where Paul is talking about those who have, uh, died, who were believers in Jesus Christ, and he talks about You know, how they're not gone forever, no, no, they're with Jesus currently, and when Jesus returns, he says, we

will be caught up, um, rapturros is the term there, uh, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and we will then forever be with the Lord. And so the question people have is, is this the rapture, the catching up, the taking away from the tribulation that's happening, or is this like what happened in the Greco-Roman context, when the king returned uh to inherit his kingdom. Uh, you know, or a victor, you know, return from battle, the people would go out of the city, and they

would usher in the king and the reign. And so some, you know, reading ancient biblical context would say, actually, this is what's happening in this passage. Paul's talking about how we're gonna receive Christ and the saints, and we're gonna come in, you know, and and

Receive the kingdom of God there and then. So again, these are just kind of the differing opinions on this stuff, and this is fun stuff to talk about and wonder and, you know, reference different passages, but it's not something that we divide over. And

It should be like, I want to be faithful every day, and I want to live expecting Jews to return every day. And so I'm in this now, but not yet. I'm in this sense of just being faithful to do what God's called me to do now. Looking forward to that day, he returns. And, and unfortunately, as I read, especially First Peter, there's a lot of suffering that we're called to endure along the way. Pebbles, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.

And now let's go to Cyprus. Here is Andrew. Thanks, Andrew, for calling

were the blood canals, things like that. I would love for you to address that if that's true historically for the temple. And then if that's true, of course, then it would be Jesus speaking about the sacrificing of the animals, not the money.

Hm. Yeah. I mean the anger. Yeah, Andrew, I think that, you know, an interesting thing here is, you know, when Jesus comes to Israel, is he is not actually critical of the sacrificial system, because this is a system that he, Yahweh, in the flesh actually gave to the people of Israel.

What he is criticizing is the way that they have corrupted it, and they have made Um, this space in the temple that actually was to bring the Gentiles in, they've filled it and made it basically a moneymaker, and they've actually made no room for the Gentiles, um, to actually be present, worshiping and knowing the one true God. So this is what Jesus is criticizing in these moments there, um, at the temple, and

it's not the sacrificial system. That would be very, um, You know, mixed signals that God is giving, you know, and remember, uh, maybe if you were listening earlier in the show, we, we pointed out that in the sermon on the Mount, you know, there's a lot of confusion about, OK, who is this rabbi? What's he doing? You know, is he just, you know, throwing out the whole Jewish system? And Jesus says, hey, some of you are thinking that here I am to throw out the whole Jewish system.

I'm not, I am here to fulfill it. And so, Remember, Jesus is called by John, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and all of this is being set up in the biblical story, going back to Genesis 22, about this lamb that will be provided by God for sacrifice, um.

Later in Exodus, about the Passover lamb, whose blood will protect God's people from the angel of death, and, you know, who's, you know, they are to eat completely, to consume it completely, it's supposed to give them, you know, energy as they exit out of Egypt. So, all of this is set up in the biblical narrative, all pointing to what Jesus would do on The cross. And so we believe as Christians, that that

need for sacrifice was ultimately fulfilled through Jesus Christ. So we don't practice animal sacrifice, that's done now, because it's been fulfilled by Jesus, but Jesus wasn't here to criticize, you know, the actual animal sacrifices. And you had a question about, I think, you know, did Jesus eat meat? Well, we know that he at least ate fish. That's what we know. So, there isn't

a mention of anything else. I would say this though, being a good Jewish boy who kept the law perfectly, we believe, he would have observed Passover, and it was required that every family have a lamb for themselves, and the whole family was to consume it. And so, Uh, we believe, according to Jewish tradition that also Jesus would have eaten lamb, and he lived like a, you know, normal Jew of his day.

burden upon the people. And so what we're seeing here is Jesus is really, I think, more upset at The hindrance of peoples, the Gentiles, especially in this case, from not being able to worship God. And I think that's why he has this righteous anger. What do you think, Andrew?

You recognize, you know, a, a sacrificial system with the need for animal sacrifice. I wasn't, you know, refuting the fact that we still consume animals allow you to, you can answer however you want when you, when I get off the air as far as how Jesus would sacrifice in detail. And if he said he wouldn't, then that's a whole another thing. And then the other thing is, do you deny that the temple itself was set up for a quarter of a million animal sacrifice with the

blood canals, very large blood canals. Do you deny that on the air? Oh, I don't know that fact, so I wouldn't, I would neither confirm nor deny. Well,

is the overconsumption and waste that humans use. Um, you know, so God actually scripture says that God has given us richly all things to enjoy, that the earth is filled with abundance that God has provided for us to eat and to nourish our bodies, and God clearly gives us animals to eat, that's found actually in the Noaic covenant.

And Paul later will say that actually there's gonna be a time, you know, in uh the latter years where people are gonna come along and they're gonna give these, you know, kind of new rules saying that, you know, we cannot eat meat at all. They're gonna refuse all these things thinking that this is the issue, but actually the deeper issue of humans is that we are turned in on ourselves because of sin. And we are separated from God. And so what we

need is we need redemption. We need someone to bring us back to God, and that's actually what the Bible is about. It's not focusing on, you know, a sacrificial system or, you know, just one of these issues that we consume too many animals and we're wasteful and these things. It's the deeper need of human hearts. To be brought back to the God who is love, the God who is a mercy, the God who is just, the God who is righteous. We need to be redeemed,

and Jesus Christ is that redemption. He became a human being, he lived the full human experience, suffered, died, rose again, and ascended. In order to bring humans back into God's story, to be his image bearers, to be his partners, and to spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth. That's

what the Bible's actually about. And so, I would just encourage you just, you know, with this topic, you know, it sounds like it's really important, and, you know, kind of heavy on your heart, um, but maybe just to go back to scripture and and just ask yourself, you know, have I kind of maybe missed the point of what the Bible is getting at here?

Yeah, yeah, so I, I think in these instances, I think we need to kind of differentiate a a few things here, you know, the Bible is never commanding us to look at evil, you know, gross wickedness, um, humans afflicting other humans and to respond and say, well, I love you, right? That is not love, um, and we can read even in, you know, the psalter, right, the songs and prayers of Israel.

That the psalmist will actually say, God, bring justice, bring judgment in these situations, you know, people are doing wrong and, you know, wanting the downfall of others, and we ask that you would intervene, that you would show yourself, uh,

to be righteous and just and true. And so I, we can pray those things, and I think we do pray that as we pray the Lord's prayer, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but then there is You know, these commands, as you said, to love our enemies. So practically, how do we do that? And I think sometimes, right, like, you know, and the examples that you gave, you know, these are things that are very far removed from you, right? Like,

uh uh Yeah. There's probably nobody in your life right now that's trying to behead you or, you know, once your demise in this way that you're describing. So, we're talking about big global issues where you and I will probably never sit in a room with these people. And have the opportunity to practice the kind of love

that Jesus commands us to practice as God's people. So, we need to live that out with one another, we need to live that out in our cultural context, but I think what we can do for these global issues is we can pray. And we can actually pray that these people would come to know the knowledge of the truth. We should pray that.

And I think it was CS Lewis that actually made this recommendation, I can't remember, but it's really difficult to hate somebody that you're praying for, and that you're actually praying goodness for salvation for, and I think the more that you invest in that kind of prayer for your enemies, the more you will come to want their good. The more you will come to want their redemption, their salvation. And so I think that's a practical way that you and I can practice a different kind of mindset, and

I would say this is God's mindset. He says, do I delight in the death of the wicked? No, I don't want them to just perish. I want them to turn. I want them to repent. And so this is a way that we can actually practice God's kind of love for our enemies. Dave,

In other words, It is God's will sometimes that this suffering happens, and so we have to say, God, what good? can come out of this? What, what, what is, what are you doing? And that's very, very difficult for those of us who have gone through tragedy, those who have gone through suffering. And in some ways, the best we can do is to pray. Other times, we may be in a place

where you're called to forgive. You know, Corey Tamboone talks about in her journey of, of ministry after being freed from a concentration camp, coming face to face with one of the soldiers that was present when her sister was killed and having to shake his hand and just the The, the, the, the shock of that and the and the struggle that she had to give forgiveness. This is not an easy thing to do, but it is a

God thing. And that's why I love how Peter just says you should commit themselves to your faithful Creator because in those moments of suffering, In these moments where we're confronting the injustice and the suffering of the world, the best we could do is to say, God, I want you to change me so that I can express who you truly are to those around me. Laurie, what do you think?

a faithful follower of Jesus. And so when it came to this critical moment in her life, like, am I gonna forgive an actual enemy of mine, she was able to do it by the power of the spirit working in her. That's true for all of us. None of us just step out, you know, and just can do this, you know, miraculously, that's not how God works. He says, you follow me. You follow my way of being. You put into practice

my teachings, and guess what? When it comes down to it, the brass tacks of these difficult things where you say, oh, I could never forgive that. I could never do that, you will do that because you have been walking with Jesus, and you have been in step with the Holy Spirit, and he is alive and at work and you, and that's how we are transformed by the spirit.

In a church movement where we used to say that all the time, and our pastors would, uh, often get up and, you know, kind of do what we, what we call these prophecy updates and You know, Dave kind of referenced this earlier, but, you know, it's, we think that there's kind of this divine timeline that we can follow, so we can know, OK, only 2 more left, you know, kind of like a, a thermometer, you know, raising money, like, all right, you know, if

we just get to this point, then it's critical mass, and then he comes, and Jesus actually says, That's not how it works. Don't do that. And so, you know, part of this is scripture and the way that prophecy works is just so fascinating because there's actually prophecies that we look at and we think, oh, this is what's gonna happen, you know, in the millennial reign.

This is what's gonna happen at the end, and the biblical writers in the New Testament telling us, oh, this is already what's happened. You know, so you, you know how people, you know, a couple of years ago, all about the blood moons and the blood moons. Do you remember this? This was happening. Oh, the blood moons, OK, so, well, well then that's the end times. Well, Peter actually quotes a blood moon passage on the day of Pentecost, that was 2000 years ago.

And he says, this is exactly what Joe was talking about, the coming of the spirit, you know, mighty signs in the heavens and on the earth. This is it. The spirit is here, this new work that was promised is being fulfilled. And so, Sometimes we're looking at biblical prophecy, thinking that like, oh, it's, we're waiting for this to happen, and the biblical writers saying, actually, Jesus did this. This actually is what part of his work.

And so I think we just, all that to say, we need to be careful when it comes to biblical prophecy and trying to find that um follow a divine timeline like that, cause what we might find is actually, you know, oh, Jesus actually says that he fulfilled that prophecy, and I think that it's still to come, or the New Testament writers say that actually happened here, and I'm thinking that

it's in the future. So, you know, this just will help us, uh, discern, you know, what the story of the Bible is actually about.

phone calls in, a lot of questions. That was great. Thank you guys for participating. We'll be back tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. and would love to hear from you. If you were watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. Thank you for doing that. Tomorrow, call in, won't you please, at 888-564-6173. We open up the phone lines about 7 minutes before 3 o'clock. Char Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is here today. You can find out more about CCCM.

At CCCM.com. And our guest was Dave Keene. He's a professor at Biola University and also a, uh, teaching pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. You can find out more about Cornerstone Community Church online at cornerstoneonline.org. God bless you guys. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.