Pastors' Perspective - 06/23/2025

How are you doing, Char? I'm doing all right. How are you, Brian? Doing well. Great to have you here in the studio. And Mike Chaddick is joining us too. He's on Zoom joining us online. Mike is the pastor of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. How are you, Mike?

it to us. But again, the best way to get an answer is to call us when we're here like today till 4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. So lots of stuff happened over the weekend and uh we've got some questions in that regard. Here's one from Sherry who sent this on Facebook. Hello, are we biblically required to support Israel? Where does it say that in the Bible? I saw a clip that said, Old Testament Israelis are not the same as now, so we don't always have to protect them. I've always believed we did.

This made me question, do I know what I'm talking about? I don't even know how to look that up in the Bible to understand that. Uh, Char, we'll start with you. What would you say to Sherry? Yeah, I mean, I think Sherry is uh bringing up a topic that's really important. I think, uh, many times we hear these statements. And I think we just pull them kind of right out of their biblical context and out of the biblical story, and we treat them, you know, as like kind of these.

Uh, dogmatic essentials of what it means to be a Christian, you know, without actually knowing where they fit in the story, what they mean, who they were originally spoken to. And so, you know, Sherry's question, I think, goes all the way back to this promise that God gives to Abraham. And we need to understand that Abraham, you know, he's the father of the nation of Israel, but Abraham actually

comes later in the story of the Bible, right? The story of the Bible begins with Adam and Eve, who are the mother and father of all humanity, and the story starts about how God created them and his image created them to be his partners and to work with him. To spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth. They rebel and reject that offer, they leave God's presence in the garden, this partnership kind of goes off the rails, and, you know, kind of the world is in this downward spiral until we come.

Basically, to Genesis chapter 12, where God is redeeming the story, and he chooses Abraham as his vessel, and his family as his vessel through which God is going to bring this human project back on its rails. And so, In the context, right? God is saying, like, I'm gonna be with you, Abraham, I'm gonna bring this thing to its finish and it's fulfillment, and whoever comes against you, and my plans for you is not gonna prosper, but those who do work with you and help you along,

I'm going to bless them. So that's the context in which this comes into, and I think unfortunately, we don't follow the story out. That Israel goes through the family of Abraham, goes through all of these ups and downs, where God is correcting them and bringing them back into his ways, but all of this culminates in the story of Jesus, that Jesus Christ is actually the fulfillment of Israel's story.

That he is the true king over Israel, and really all of the promises that God made to Abraham, to the nation of Israel, to David the king, even the promise of the new covenant that we find later in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and the visions that we find in Isaiah, all of these are fulfilled in Jesus. And so now Jesus defines for us who we are to bless, who we are to curse, who we are to support, who we are to resist. And I think we really need to look at the teachings of Jesus

specifically in the sermon on the Mount. Now, nowhere in scripture does it say that we are to give our

full support to any human government, right? That like, You know, when we, when we look at the world, we don't just go, well, you know, pick a random country, like, I just support that government and whatever they do, we need to use our minds, and we need to use the scripture to discern what is right and wrong, and to discern what things, you know, that government does honors God, doesn't honor God, and specifically we do this through looking

at the teachings of Jesus. I could go on and talk more about this, but You know, I don't think the question is, you know, do we support Israel now, um, I, I just think we're asking the wrong question. I think the question that we should be asking is, what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? And who, what government on earth do I actually give my allegiance to?

And I think the answer from the Bible is, um, Jesus wants me to be his disciple, and he wants me to give his allegiance to him and him alone, and any nation state that I belong to actually comes secondary to my allegiance to Jesus and to his kingdom.

And if I want to give my, you know, money or my verbal, or, you know, social media support to another nation on earth, again, I need to scrutinize that according to Uh, the righteousness and justice that is clearly laid out in scripture, and not just because of some verse that I've ripped from its context. Now, let me just say this, uh, saying this, I'm not antagonistic towards Israelis, I'm not antagonistic

towards Palestinians. The the Understanding of the gospel is that God wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. And so he is the God of the nation of Israel. As well as the God of the nations, and the New Testament makes this abundantly clear. God is for people, and he wants them to be part of his kingdom. And I think the problem is, is Sometimes if I'm supporting one nation state, it automatically means

I'm anti this nation. And I think we as Christians, as followers of Jesus, we have to be aware of, you know, political positioning like that, because following Jesus actually forbids me from being antibody. I am people that they would come to know the knowledge of the truth about who Jesus is. I've said enough. Go pitch to Mike. Well, real quick, Mike, before you answer

what we have another question on the same topic. I probably should have just read them back to back, but let me read this question, which brings up some of the same points as the other one, but um, So, uh, here's what it is. Uh, I really need your help with a spiritual question that has political subtext, and I want to make sure I'm understanding scripture properly and in context. I have a deep love and respect for the Jews. My whole life I've heard, bless Israel and you will.

blessed, cursed Israel, and you will be cursed. Genesis 12:3. Many Christians interpret this as a command to support the modern state of Israel without criticism. Others say it refers to God's covenant with Abraham's descendants and should not be equated with a political nation. So I reread the scripture and saw it doesn't in the NIV refer to Israel,

but to Abraham's descendants that blew my mind. I feel like if I understand the context and meaning of the scripture in Genesis, I can be on the right side of. The politics. In Genesis 12:3, uh, is Genesis 12:3 about supporting a political state without question or comment about war or potentially genocide? Is it about honoring God's covenant people in a different way? How should I faithfully live out this verse today?

Those are all, I, I think, uh, I mean, you have to have those conversations. I'm in the middle of having them with other people are delved into some of that uh exegetical stuff, um. I think, here, I, I can't get into all of it right now. There's no way I can possibly do that. Here's one thing I will say, even let's go back to Genesis 12 and, and talking about, I'll bless those

who bless you and curse those who curse you. And I'll leave aside the question of whether it applies to the modern secular state of Israel today or whether it doesn't. Let's go back to the beginning and let me point out what it clearly never meant. For anyone ever, and that was unqualified support. It never meant that. If you believe that you are taking a stand against God. Because God took a stand against Israel. God brought judgment

on Israel. God sent foreign nations to punish Israel. Israel, time and time and time again, was in gross licentious sin, not only doing many of the same sins as the Canaanites, but it was even worse because they were doing so with the full knowledge of the true and living God. So, let's keep in mind, however, you're going to interpret.

The Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament context, but not even getting the New Testament, which of course you must do eventually, and it, it can change things, but let's just even take it there. I think it never ever ever meant support like if support means affirm. And validate every action and every word. It never meant that. That's ridiculous. God would be wrong, and I'm not gonna

stand against God. God is clearly in the right, every time he speaks, every time he acts, that means every harsh word, every prophet, I was just going through Amos and my own personal preaching, and he's preaching the woes, and you have these prophets, and they're lamenting against Israel's sin. I mean, ironically, the, the unfaithful Jews in Israel at that time, they were angry and wanting to persecute and kill the prophets because they were criticizing what they were doing.

They were criticizing the national agenda. As a matter of fact, like Jeremiah was thrown into a pit. Why? Because he was seen as a political traitor. Because he said capitulate to the enemy, because the message to Jeremiah was, hey, I'm punishing you, so don't fight this.

I'm punishing you. This is gonna happen. So Jeremiah, go tell them, Jeremiah's faithfully tells them, and they're like, you're standing against us, you're a traitor, how could you not support us in everything we say or do, you're a Jew, well this is Israel, you'll do what we say, or you'll go down to the pit. So, it never meant that.

Let's just be very, very clear, and I think what I want to speak to here is not so much the exegetical side, but When it was reported the other night that, you know, the United States dropped bombs on Iran and they, and they, you know, directly in the conflict between Iran and Israel, and a lot of Christians, including pastors, started posting on social media, I support Israel, again, that's, that's sort of

my camp. You'll probably see 90% of those, maybe 10%, like remember Iran, remember about probably less than 10%. If you grow up in another camp, it might be the opposite. Remember Palestine, remember Iran, we hate Israel, but that's not my world. I don't think that was Char's world, uh, either growing up. So I think we need to just be careful, all of us, even if you don't agree on our exegesis. I think sometimes when we say I stand with I support, I think it might help instead of just a little

meme or graphic you're posting. Explain what exactly that means, because while you and your camp might understand what that means, there is a Who unbelieving world, there are people from various backgrounds, various kinds, and they're they're reading your words, they're seeing your little post, and they're coming away with something. I, I hope it's not what you're saying, which is Christians must stand with Israel when they're wrong.

So, for example, Israel today, the modern Jewish state of Israel, which is a secular state, so in that sense, it it certainly is a little bit different than the Old Testament, but 99% plus of ethnic Jews in Israel reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So, that's apostasy by biblical standards. So, I certainly hope when we're saying I stand with Israel, we're not saying I stand with apostasy. I hope we're not saying that. Israel is the gay capital of the Middle East. Tel

Aviv has the largest LGBTQ pride festival in the Middle East. It's, it's called the gay Mecca. I hope we're not saying as evangelical by believing quote unquote, conservative Christians, that that's good. We support sexual perversity. I hope we're not saying that. So, what I wanna leave everyone with here is just be very careful. We have such polarization.

In our culture today, and, and I think too often we're, we're preaching to the choir, and we're not being careful with our words, especially our slogans and our symbols and things like that, and we need to very carefully unpack, because I think it's possible to have a different take on exeg Jesus, right? There's gonna be a lot of Christians who believe, no, no, no, those, those promises still apply. We have to bless the ethnic Israel today. OK, OK.

But even if that's your exegetical position, please go back and remember from the Old Testament. That never meant affirming Israel in its wickedness, never, not a single time. So I think there's room for, in some sense, like validation, appreciation, a debt of gratitude is the language I like to earn. I, I owe the Jewish people a debt of gratitude, but a debt of gratitude never means I'm obligated to stand with someone when

they're wrong. That's not how I repay a debt of gratitude, so I just hope we're very careful. And kind of the, the way we're approaching this and the way we're projecting our beliefs to the world, because I think if it doesn't reflect a genuine exegetical theological misunderstanding, we are causing a lot of communication and social problems in the world by not being careful.

You know, they are for that, well, actually all the passages in scripture, right, are for a specific community at that moment in a specific context, and we need to understand this, you know, it has been wisely said, scripture is not written for us, or excuse me, it's not written to us, but it is written for us. And I think we need to differentiate on things like this. And sometimes, you know, I mentioned we need to know where we're at in the story. Sometimes we'll just drop ourselves.

You know, in this thing, right? So, when we're reading passages like Genesis 12, right, we're understanding that this is God's plan of redemption, not just for Israel, for the whole world, for all of humanity, right? And it's not just, you know, like Mike saying, like this, you know, blank check that Israel can just do whatever it wants and never be criticized because God's on their side, right? But saying, God will be faithful to them, to the

end to accomplish his purpose. That's what he's telling Abraham, you know, uh, another passage puts it this way, no weapon formed against you shall prosper, right? So God's saying like, nothing's gonna take you out and thwart my promises to redeem the world. That's what God is saying. Take the whole message together, right? Don't just extract one verse and just think that this is some kind of like exchange that you can do with God. I think also pray for the peace of Jerusalem. You know, again,

this is a Psalm, right? That is talking about, you know, the turmoil that's going on in among the nations in Israel, and what they want is peace. And so there's this encouragement to the people of God that we would pray for God's peace, but that isn't just something that like, you know, God zaps like peace, cause we prayed for it. It's actually something that the people of God had to choose to walk in God's righteousness and justice and mercy

in order to experience his peace. So, you know, when we're talking about these things, sometimes we treat biblical promises like magical incantations, like a rain god kind of a thing, you know, well, if I, God said, if I just do this recipe, then he does this, you know. And that's just not the way that biblical promises work, and that's why I referenced in the beginning, all of this actually has to do with Jesus. He is the one that brings all of this to pass, and it

finds fulfillment in him. And now, some people are gonna get really ticked off that I'm gonna say this. But in the New Testament, we never find a command. That we have to bless the Jews, and we will be blessed. If we curse them, we will be cursed. We never find an exhortation to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. And I have actually suggested that Jesus gives us a new prayer to pray, in place of the

pray for the pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Now, remember that Jerusalem was the center of Israel's identity politically, religiously, it's the seat of God. Reigning over the nations there at the temple, but we understand that that actually has come to fulfillment in and through the person of Jesus Christ, right? He is the living presence of God, housing that temple present, power, holiness, it's all found in him. And so, Jesus taught us to pray.

Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He's not focusing on the blessing of Jerusalem, he's focusing on actually God's kingdom going to the ends of the earth, it not being concentrated anymore to a locale, but now, through Christ's body, the church, and by his spirit, it's spreading to the ends of the earth. And so, again, I just think that this is one of those areas where we get stuck in a part of the story.

And we think, oh, this is what God wants. God wants all the world to be focused on this part of land and to pray for that peace, that wasn't God's plan from the beginning. Remember, read this even just in the Gospels in the Book of Acts, the kingdom message is gonna spread through Jesus' disciples, the good news. About the reign of God from Jerusalem to Judea, to Samaria,

to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem is no longer the center point, it's the sending point to go to all the other places, so that the whole world can experience the peaceful reign of God. And so I think we're just getting the story, we're going backwards into the story. You know, it's like You know, people will get this analogy sometimes, right? When we're questioning the law and we're wondering like what is its validity today? And, you know, or, well, if it's not valid today,

then it didn't ever matter. And many theologians have pointed out that the law works as a signpost, right? But once you arrive at the destination that the signs were pointing to, you don't go back to the signs. It doesn't make any sense. You've arrived at the destination, so the signs actually did what they were intended to do. And now that you have arrived, enjoy, live in it, you know, and so that's actually what we're saying about

Jesus. He has fulfilled all that the promises of Abraham, the law, the covenant given to David and to Jeremiah, all of that was pointing to him. And we've arrived at him. Why are we going back to these Old Testament promises and trying to, you know, um, Take them to the bank when they've already been cashed in, so to speak, with Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus. Follow him. He is the way, he is the truth, He is the life. Let him define reality for you.

Let him define blessing for you. Let him show you who we are to love, who we are to bless, who we are to serve, and stop going back to these other covenants. They are pointing forward. I'm done.

on the issue. And then of course, it's a hot topic, which is why it's being asked multiple times and we all know from recent events why that is, but, um, I think, and, and obviously the Old Testament still has formative power. It's, we're no longer covenantally under it, I think is, that's what I understand Char to be saying, but obviously, like Paul would say in 1 Corinthians 10, referring back to the children of Israel, Moses passing through the cloud and through the sea, and these things are

written for us, right? They're actually written for our admin. definition and instruction on whom the end of the ages has come. So, obviously, as Christians, we still read the Old Testament, we're not saying it doesn't have value, formative power, validity, but covenantally, and I think that's the key word, we are not covenantally under the terms and stipulations of the Mosaic law, that that very clearly, I think that to me, I, I can't imagine.

Uh, anyone who calls themselves a Christian arguing against that point, I think that's, that's the heart of the gospel, that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises of God. But I think in terms of what do we do now, um, with respect to like the modern say, but, this, this is how I personally think, and again, I think there's room for disagreement on the applications or how we think, and if we haven't fully wrestled through all the tests. For me, the way I look at it.

It's, I, I, as a Christian, owe the Jewish people a debt of gratitude. The reason for that is it's not that they're doing things right and everything their government's doing, uh, or even that they're believers, cause, like I mentioned, 99% of ethnic Jews living in Israel reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but nevertheless, that it doesn't change the fact that according to the flesh, God chose and used them.

To be the vehicles of his divine revelation, recorded in sacred scripture, preserved by them for us through centuries, through conflict, through ups and downs, and migratory settling, all of that, along with according to the flesh, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So, for that sake, again, my, my sort of disposition, I would say, it's not so much tied into You know, like Genesis 12:3 or something like is being asked.

It's more just that natural human instinct of gratitude, and I think Paul is this way where, again, he loves his Jewish brethren again at some point he wiped his hand, he said, for now, you know, you guys don't listen, I'm going to the Gentiles for now. But nevertheless, Paul still had an affection. For his people group, for the Jewish people, because he

was one of them, and he said, I love them. I, I love them so much, I myself wish I was cursed so that they might be saved, but nevertheless, Paul Ryan, they're not saved, and they're not doing good, and some of his harshest critics and conflicts were with um Jewish non-believers, Jewish uh people. rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. So the way I look at it, I owe them a debt of gratitude

for how God has used them in redemptive history. So, in whatever way I can, I wanna be a blessing, but at the same time, that never meant and does not mean I owe it to the Jewish people or the state of Israel to side with them when they are doing things by biblical standards is evil and wrong. That is, that is not there whatsoever, so it never was. So that's, that's kind of how I think about it.

There's been a couple of times this week that I've had conversations that I think there's something that applies just for those that are listening. You know, sometimes, like, what we're looking for is like

the right perspective on world affairs, right? How should we view, you know, the war in Ukraine, the Russians, how should we view the Iranians versus, you know, the Jews and these things, and like Mike said in the beginning, these are like super complicated questions, far above our pay grade, like, we don't know what is actually going on in these secret meetings of governments and things that are being planned

in these things. And, you know, like, Some of us, in our perspective, we could actually be wrong on this, but I want to bring it back to reality. I don't think God holds me responsible to have the right perspective on everything that is going on in the world.

What God actually holds me responsible for as a follower of Jesus Christ, is to love God and to love my neighbor, and I can only do that in a local context, you know, and I think sometimes we are being given because of, you know, 24/7 social media and this news feed that's constantly coming at us. This burden of the world that we cannot possibly bear or really do anything about. But we have people all around us who need the gospel. We have people all around us who need to be

shown the love of God. We have homeless in our cities, homeless families in our cities, we have um sanitary living issues in our city. We have, you know, all of these current needs. And the mistake that we could make is that what God cares about is our stance on Israel and doesn't actually care about how we're living out the gospel in our local context. I think God would say, you're focusing

on the wrong thing, right? Like, and I talk about this a lot with our church, so this isn't just me picking on this question. But we have this way as Christians where we kind of, you know, check a spiritual box, and we think that this is what God wants. God addresses this stuff in the prophets. He says, do you think I want your sacrifices, your offerings? Do you think I'm thirsty for the blood of bulls and goats? It was never about that. I am looking for justice. I am looking for steadfast love.

I am looking for humility. That's the thing that I want. And so I think that this just, you know, let's not miss. The forest for the trees, right? Like, let's not get so caught up in these questions about these things. These are fine things to talk about. Yes, it's important to know, you know, how to understand the story of the Bible,

where we're at. Yes, questions about Israel and our support for them, but let's never focus on those to the neglect of what Jesus has called us to do as disciples, which is to Follow him, yeah, to be like him, to do what he did. I just think it's so important just to emphasize that we're talking about some of this, you know, huge world events. No, I've said that before, that oftentimes you'll walk into a coffee shop and you'll see Christians gathered debating, you know,

Israel or new earth, old Earth, and all these other things. Meanwhile, the barista is having a bad day. Wouldn't it be nice if one of us just walked up to them and just had a conversation, put our arm around them and You know, invited them into a not that conversation necessarily, but just got to know them, etc. So, yeah, good stuff today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today. We're gonna be here for another 30

minutes and we would love to hear from you. 888-564-6173. We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions. 888-564-6173. Looks like you guys wanna keep talking about this, so we will. David in San Diego listening on the Kwave app. Thank you for calling in today. How can we help you?

would say everything Israel does is correct. I agreed with everything you said there, but my question is, why wouldn't we honor and support uh this grand plan of salvation that God has set up with this everlasting covenant? Yeah.

That's why I was going, you know, at lengths to emphasize, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. And now, as Paul, you know, a Jew, a Pharisee, somebody who is so passionate for the law, understanding of the Old Testament scriptures, shows us now how Israel is fulfilled and finds its true identity, meaning and purpose through Jesus Messiah. And now Jesus redefined who Israel is. This is what Paul is talking about in the book of Romans, and

also in Galatians, right? That there is a redefinition of the people of God and the Israel of God because Messiah has come. And so that's, I think what Mike is referring to as well, but that's my stance and understanding is we aren't supposed to be focusing on the nation state of Israel, but Actually, the king of Israel, Jesus, and who identifies with

him and who is part of his kingdom. And even when we're talking about the fulfillment of these things, I hope that we're recognizing that that would be a messianic fulfillment of the promises of God. And so I think we need to be aware, Mike and I have addressed this before, we need to be aware, be aware of this kind of backdoor blessing that is reserved for Israel outside of Jesus. Remember, Jesus is Yahweh.

So, if Israel is rejecting Yahweh, Mike referenced this earlier, 99% of, you know, Jews living in the land reject Jesus, who is Yahweh in the flesh. Yahweh become human, right? And it sounds like, you know, many times we are creating this caveat where you can still experience the blessing and favor of God. As a nation while simultaneously rejecting God. So, do you, do you understand what I'm, what I'm getting at here, maybe pointing out kind of the Logical fallacy of.

Um, in Genesis 13 when he said, I make this covenant as an everlasting covenant forever. And that wasn't just one verse. I'm quoting from one verse, but, but he reiterated that forever covenant many times, um, in Genesis 17 when Abraham said, what do I have to do to get this covenant, you know, and the deep sleep falls on Abraham, and, and God passes through, uh, the, these pieces where he tells him to separate these animals and this, this souran

treaty that Abraham would have been familiar with. Abraham falls into a deep sleep and God alone passes through the covenant is. Solely conditioned on God's faithfulness, we have a nation that in its disobedience and rejecting the Messiah, which is why Jesus wept on Palm Sunday. Nobody's saying that, um, Israel's right. I mean, there's more atheism there and, and you know, immoral, all that.

an evil republic. I mean, you look at the genocide that has come out of them, they're the largest. Um, terrorist group in the in the world right now, and they're sponsoring all these different proxies of Hamas and um

it is singular, and he's, he's very clear here. It refers to Christ in and through Christ, all the nations of the world will be blessed. So that's what Charles is doing, but that's not what I wanted to address. You keep bringing up the word forever. I, do you know what the Hebrew word is for that? Back to back to the Galatians comment just real quick. Well, let me, well, no, I, I need to address this because you keep bringing it up and it hasn't been addressed.

The word is Ola, and if you think that means forever, that also applies to animal sacrifice. Do you continue to do animal sacrifices today cause it says Ola forever. Well, I think in the um millennial kingdom there will be animal sacrifice. This is the remembrance of Christ. So yes. So, Christ, the final sacrifice who fulfills it. He's the last, he is the Passover lamb but you think they're gonna keep doing animal sacrifices after Jesus has Set to tell this diet is finished.

In the millennial kingdom, I think there'll be animal sacrifice. OK, well, OK, do you do animal sacrifices now? No, of course not. Christ is the, the finished work. OK, but, but how do you say of course when it says forever? You need to do these things forever. In the Torah. Well, I feel like you're, you're getting argumentative. I don't think that no, no, not at all. I'm being exegetical. It literally, here's what I find people don't know, especially

if you haven't studied Hebrew. The word olam sometimes can be translated forever. It also means in perpetuity, for example. In the various laws in Exodus and Leviticus, somebody will become someone's slave, Olam, forever. Does that literally mean an eternity? We're gonna be the slaves of different people. It says you will offer these animal sacrifices, you will observe the various feasts, Olam, forever. What theologians acknowledge.

Scholars of Hebrew, it means in perpetuity. In other words, as long as the covenant is in effect, these things will be observed. The point Chahar was making is the Mosaic covenant, the Abrahammock covenant. Paul would say actually in 2 Corinthians, all the promises of God, by the way, the word all means all.

are fulfilled in Jesus. They are yes and amen. Paul says that the seed back in Genesis, that it sounds like you're thinking, is the ethnic nation of Israel, the apostle Paul, who was actually a member of ethnic Israel, said it refers to Christ. So I think there's a little misunderstanding of what Olam means in Hebrew, and how it's used regularly throughout the Torah.

science backs the Bible. And I find it very interesting, but the last time I found him on my feed, he was talking about how important it was for us to share the good news, share the gospel with others. And which I totally agree with. But he says if we neglect to do that, or we don't take the opportunity to do that, that, um, if that person goes to hell, it's partially our fault and that we will have to answer for that on judgment day. And The red flags started popping up, but I'm thinking, where

in the scriptures would he get this idea? Um, so I just, I kind of already have a point of view on how I feel about that, but I just wanted to get a perspective, uh, from you gentlemen. All right, Char, we'll start with you. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure which scripture that he is referring to. I mean, there are plenty of scriptures.

Right, to talk to us just about the importance of our faith actually having feet, you know, like that we walk these things out, that they aren't just words that we affirm, you know, in our pews, but that we actually have a living faith and we make known the kingdom of God. And I, I think, you know, as we look at the New Testament and especially the story there in the Gospel in the book of Acts, like this was just what the Christian community did, right?

The way that they lived was a witness, a testament to the kingdom of God. The way that they spoke was they testified to what Jesus had done for them, right? It was all about God's kingdom, and the word that's used there in the Greek is that they would almost gossip,

you know, the good news. It was just like, kind of the word on the street and everybody's talking about this message about God's kingdom, and it's like no other kingdom, and And so it was just part of their life to proclaim the kingdom of God, both through their words and through their deeds. And of course, there are many scriptures that talk about the importance that our deeds match what we proclaim, and that the day of judgment will reveal what is genuine or disingenuine.

And I think, if I could, you know, I, I don't know this guy, I don't know what he says, but I think sometimes, uh, pastors and maybe evangelists, we kind of camp out on that day of judgment, and unfortunately, I think we make it this kind of threat to Christians, and, you know, kind of try to scare people, it's scared tactics into evangelism, but I don't, we don't really see Jesus doing that. What we see Jesus doing and even the apostles doing,

is they want us to be introspective. They want us to know that we know that we belong to God. And so, you know, they give us these tools for examining, are we really part of God's people? And if we are, well, there should be this kind of love for God, and this is what it looks like. There should be this love of neighbor, and this is what it looks like. There should be forgiveness, cause God has forgiven us, there should be peace because God has made peace with us.

So there are these tools for self-examination. The fruit, we examine that in our lives to know that we are with Jesus, so that on that day, you know, John talks about this in his epistle, we will see him, we will be like him, we will see him as we as as he is, and everyone who has his hope within them purifies himself just as he is pure, right? There's actually an anticipation and an excitement for the day, not a fear. And so, uh, you know, I, I am one of

those ones that I wanna lean into that anticipation. I want to lean into that excitement. And I think the warnings of scripture are there for those people who feel that they are safe in the sense of like, well, I don't really have to do anything, and I don't really have to abide by that. And, you know, I, I believed in, cause I said this prayer, and yeah, of course I trust God, but my life looks this way. The warnings of scripture are to be applied to them.

And those introspections are tool for them, and these passages would actually be warning passages for them to motivate them, if that makes sense. I think we have to be careful how we use this, and even The writers of the New Testament talk about this, you know, we need to discern this stuff. There's some kinds of people that you want to have a sensitivity because they have a sensitive conscience and you don't want to come

down heavy-handed. There are other people who are hard-hearted and they're blind, and you need to be firm with them, like, hey, you are. Resisting what the Lord is doing, and if you do not turn to the Lord, these are the consequences that are gonna ensue, and you're gonna stand before Christ. And so I think as pastors and leaders, we need to discern how to rightly use the word to motivate this

life of faithfully following Jesus. Mike, any thoughts on this before you make your comment about the previous call, the other comment you wanted to add?

how people are hearing you. And I think the problem with, like, even the discussion we're having exegetically, like I hope all Christians would not be against going back to the Bible and making sure our interpretations are correct. So if somebody proposes a system, well, I've always heard that, OK, but if biblically we go back to the Bible and find out it's wrong, I hope you don't push back on that or say, oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna accept that, or that's bad. Somebody could use the correct

biblical interpretation to do something bad. So hopefully we can have in in-house, as Christians, conversations about what the Bible says, always come back to it, be open. To being corrected by scripture, if we're wrong, but, having said that, I recognize all kinds of people could be listening online, on the radio and stuff, and I just wanna make sure because, obviously, as a Christian,

Anti-Semitism is a sin. It's wrong, because I think some people get the idea if you don't interpret script scriptures in such a way that we think Genesis 12 so applies to this and this and that, and unless you do that, which is an exegetical question, then you, you have to let anti-Semitism go and all this. Absolutely not. That's a false dichotomy. I can absolutely and have all the tools I need to stand against anti-Semitism.

It is sinful and wrong. On the one hand, we can say, well, that's true of any people group, right? We wouldn't want anybody of any ethnicity, uh, being persecuted and stuff like that. But I will say this, and I'll make this further point. Obviously, I think many of us are even more sensitive.

Uh, to guard against anti-Semitism because we live within a century of the Holocaust, and we've seen the vitriol and the hate that has come from the world and unfortunately from some Christian circles, and I think it's just important that we make a distinction between exegesis of biblical texts wanting to be faithful to God.

But never saying, even if this interpretation is right, and the one you previously thought was wrong, whatever, that's never going to be a case for going for being anti-Semitic or anything like that or suggesting that Israel doesn't have a right to exist as a nation today and all all that kind of stuff.

I think that's clearly wrong. I can stand for that on a human basis, humanitarian basis, as well as a Christian ethical moral basis without necessarily betting the farm on ignoring certain scriptures or twisting them or ignoring the new covenant, all that kind of stuff. So, That was kind of my disclaimer. Yeah,

How they go about doing that. I, I don't what I was trying to get to earlier, I don't think it's our responsibility to weigh in every single time on this was good, this was bad, this is right, this is wrong, and I think if you're looking for that kind of, you know, theological backing from scripture, you're not gonna find it, you know. Well, who does God bless, you know, when you bomb them? Like, you're not gonna find that answer in scripture.

God is not for bombing any people, right? And so, we understand that there are these wars going on there, but we're unfortunately bringing these theological questions into it and saying, like, basically, does God condone this? Is God for the bombing of the Iranian people? I would say no. Like, are there, is there a part of my brain that says, do I understand that Israel's government is afraid

of Iran having nuclear weapons? Yes, and preemptively striking them. Yes, that's what nations do in order to protect their people. Does God want this? No, like, read the Bible, God wants peace. God wants to heal the world of all of these wars and conflicts, and he's gonna do that one day through Jesus Messiah.

You know, so, again, this stuff is very complicated. There's so many political layers to it, but I, I just love, Mike, what you're doing there, like, just bringing us back to like, the right exeg Jesus helps us land on, we're supposed to be about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that all of these things have been fulfilled in and through him, and so, let's keep our eyes on him.

And let's allow Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection, his ascension, his current reigning over all things, his renewal of all things, to help us interpret how to live in this world as representatives of Christ.

From their news source, their web source, it could be, could be Fox, could be CNN, it could be what, you know, some aggregate thing could be an underground website, you know, in somebody's grandma's basement, whatever it is. And people, I mean, I guess for me, I'm personally more skeptical of news sources. Again, there's ones I do believe, uh, I'm not totally agnostic, but I, I, I guess there's some I believe are more truthful than others, but I,

I don't believe anyone's unbiased. I believe everyone has an angle of some kind, and I also believe There's no one that has 100% of the truth all the time. Uh, the Bible is the only thing I know that's 100% true, literally, and, and that's the only thing I know is 100% true. So I think just being, being humble and cautious in making Weighty moral judgments on things that personally, you actually have no real firsthand knowledge. We're just going off of whatever

we're being fed. And if you're a conservative, obviously, you feel like you're conservative news source is pretty accurate. If you're a liberal, you feel like your liberal news source is accurate, and I feel like both of them are actually kind of wrong in the sense they're trusting way too much in what's just being spoon fed to people. So I think just being careful about that in general is an important thing to do as well.

he believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of Israel. I know that. Um, I heard him preach many, many times said under his teaching, and so I know that he agrees with Mike and I on. Uh, the exegesis of Genesis and Galatians. And yet, you know, my grandpa was, yeah, very, uh, he had such a, a heart for uh the Jewish people and for the land of Israel and went there many, many times, and he had many, many friendships there. And yet he did not, you know, support everything that Israel did.

You know, my grandpa used his mind and he used the scripture to discern those things. So, yeah, and again, he's not here for us to ask specifically. You know, if he would have, if he gives, you know, today the modern Israelites full support. Yeah, Mike.

it's always what does the Bible say? And if the Bible says, inspired by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul, that the seed is singular and it's Christ, I'm not gonna try to find ways to argue out of that.