Pastors' Perspective - 06/12/2025

us on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram. If you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, you probably see a QR code there near the bottom corner somewhere there. You can zap that, and that'll take you to the page on Kwave.com, where you can send in your questions, but we prefer to talk to you, so call in if you can. At 888-564-6173. And answering your questions today, we've got Pastor Brian Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. How are you doing, Brian? Well, Brian

How am I doing? I'm doing, I asked you. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm doing fine. I'm I'm doing great. I, uh, on my little jog this morning, I kind of tweaked my hip, so I'm feeling like an old person right now hobbling along, but apart from that, I'm just doing great. Good. Glad to, glad to hear that. Glad to have you here. And joining us on the phone. Cause we have wonders of modern technology, but they're not being very wonderful today apparently. So we've got to get

Phil Metzger on the phone. Phil's the pastor of Calvary San Diego. How you doing, Phil? Hey guys, I'm doing good. You know, it's, it's, I'm so disappointed because today I'm in my tuxedo and you don't get to see it. Wait, what do you say? Are you really in a tuxedo? What are you doing in a tuxedo? No, I'm absolutely not in a tuxedo, OK. I'm just in a t-shirt, guys. Sorry, it's not very exciting, but I thought it would be fun. So yeah, you could send us a selfie. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

I will. Well, I was, you know, looking forward to seeing your mug, as Bobby would call it, but, uh, but you're not there. And Bobby, on our screens invisible too. You are the invisible man. There is a chair, but there is not a human in it. But yet, but yet we are hearing your voice.

So let's talk about, well, let's talk about the CGN International Conference that's coming up the 22nd through the 25th of this month, and I cannot believe that it's just 10 days away, and we are super excited about this,

looking forward to a great time. It's a ministry conference, so it's open to um people in um a variety of of ministries in your, your churches, of course, pastors and Um, but youth workers and worship leaders and children's ministry people and, um, yeah, we're just looking forward to a

great time. We're gonna be looking at those wonderful chapters in the Gospel of John, chapters 13 through 17, where we have that intimate time with Jesus in the upper room with his disciples and the instruction that he gives us there, we're looking at, um, The way forward ministry according to Jesus and we've got

great workshops, we've got great main sessions. Alistair Begg is going to be sort of our, you know, in some ways, I mean, he's he's our, uh, kind of globally known, uh, speaker, but the rest of the guys are gonna do a fantastic job as well. So, um, yeah, come on out, you can. Get all the details. You can look at the great website and see all the pictures of everybody. Uh, you can find that at conference. Calvary Chapel.com and you can get registered there as well. So, coming out, we'd love

to see you. It's 10 days away. You better sign up today, conference. Calvary Chapel.com. All right, here's a question that was sent in on the pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger. It's from Roger. My friend only listens to preachers who say things that he wants to hear. That God will give him a long life. Bless him materially. We give him supernatural gifts like performing miracles, healing, and prophecy. For 20 years, these beliefs have hurt him relationally, emotionally,

and financially because they haven't come true. But he continues to want these things. I'm praying for him. I've read the Bible with him to expose erroneous beliefs, and I've showed the Holy Spirit decides what spiritual gifts to give, but he isn't receptive. Do you have any suggestions? Phil Metzger. Um, well, I mean, you know, in my flesh, I totally agree with the guy. I only want to get

to say things that I agree with too. Um, I wish, I, you know, I wish that was like kind of how things worked, you know, and, um, so, you know, what I would, I, I would probably take him into maybe 1 John chapter 2. And maybe talk about the, um, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, and, and, you know, maybe describing how, hey, listen, there's, there's like, there's things that we all want. It's like, yeah, I want that, you know, I want to eat a bag

of sweets all the time. But what I want, and then what God wants for me. Aren't always in alignment. And, and what I want may not be evil necessarily or like immoral only. It might just be that I'm, you know, if my flesh is competing for the throne of my life over God, there's a problem. And so when we're, when we're only wanting to hear the things that are feeding what we feel, what we want, what we think, we're missing this much broader array of what God wants, what God thinks, and

what God feels. Sometimes those align. Quite often, at times they just don't. And when that doesn't, when they don't align, I have to make a choice. Am I going to follow God or my own will, my own way? So, um, I, I get the guy's dilemma.

Who doesn't face that? But when you just keep giving into that thinking and that kind of like giving into your flesh, your own desires, your own thought process, it becomes a really destructive pattern, and it, it, the only way it can be broken is by surrender to the, to, to Jesus. Pastor Brian.

That's, that's a great feeling, you know, I was, um, reading through First Timothy the other morning and this passage once again, uh, stood out where he, Paul is speaking to Timothy and he's talking about those who suppose that godliness is a means of gain and that's essentially what is being described here, right? If, you know, I want to hear those messages that I'm gonna. I'm gonna be financially prospering and I'm gonna have a long life, life and a healthy life, and so forth. Well,

that's exactly what Paul is warning about. He says that those who uh have that message, he actually says that they are, um, They, they are, uh, what, what does he say? Useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth. So guys who are preaching that prosperity gospel, Paul had some pretty stern words to say about that. But then he goes on and he says, now, um, well, he says, he says, from such people withdraw yourself.

And then he says, now godliness with contentment is great gain, for we brought nothing into this world, it is certain we can carry nothing out. and having food and clothing

with these, we shall be content. And then he goes on, but those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a Snare or a trap and into many foolish and harmful lust which drown people in destruction and perdition, for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness and pierced themselves through with many sorrows, so. If you haven't shown him that passage, that's the passage

to take him to. And if he doesn't listen to that, you know, what can you do? Roger, thank you for sending in your question on the pastor's perspective Facebook messenger. Let's go to the phones now, and uh 888-564-6173 is our number. We'll start with Sean in Rancho Santa Margaritas. It's got a question for Bobby. Hey there, Sean, go ahead. Hey how are you guys? Doing great, thanks.

Yeah, it wasn't really for Bobby, but he made a, uh, you guys were discussing the authenticity of the resurrection yesterday, and he, I think I heard Bobby say there's all kinds of evidence and he mentioned the shroud of Turin, if I'm pronouncing it right, and, uh, I saw a clip on one of the pastors on that I follow, um, and they mentioned that that, that isn't accurate because His the hair, his hair wouldn't have been that way

in those days of being a Jew or whatnot. And also he mentioned he was, according to the Bible, he was just, he was unrecognizable and his beard was plucked, yet that shroud of to seems like it's a perfectly Pictured, uh, like almost like a portrait, and I'm just curious, do you, do, do we believe that is part of the evidence of the resurrection. Bobby Conway.

and the death of Christ. And I have listened to some pretty compelling podcasts. Um, I've heard a presentation given. Um, on it, uh, so you take, you know, uh, 3 hours maybe of investment on this topic. Uh, it's hard for me to, you know, know with certainty, but what I appreciate is, um, where, um, The, the, the dating number 1 is phenomenal, um, but #2, um, it corresponds to the, the type of wounds that he experienced. It shows that it would have been a crucifixified victim.

It shows um that the where the crown of thorns are and where the blood would spill. So those are some interesting points of evidence, but I don't think I could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Uh, what you're bringing up, uh, for, um, contesting it, I would just say perhaps look into the work of somebody like Gary Havermass and see what he's written on it.

It, it dates back to the, the time of Jesus, and they're hard pressed to explain the uh the image that's imprinted on it. It seems like it could only have happened through uh just an absolute flash of like brilliant light, like lightning or something like that. And Gary Habermass, I think, um, most people would agree. That he's a serious scholar. He's not a person that's given to sensationalism. So when he takes it seriously, I think we should um we should at least take it seriously.

I don't, I don't know that we necessarily You know, no nobody says we have to believe it, but I think, wow, you know, this, this guy's done a ton of research and he thinks it's legit, so maybe it is, don't know. Phil Metzger, any thoughts from you? No, I have absolutely no, no thoughts on that. Uh, I saw it once. That's the extent of my knowledge, but, uh, nope. Did you see the actual shrout?

Yeah, in Turin, yeah, it was on tour and I can't, I was trying to remember this whole time you guys were talking, I was like, where did I, where was I? The actual shroud. It was cool. Amazing to see it. But like, listen, Bobby spent 3 hours and still doesn't feel comfortable. I saw it for like 3 minutes, so I'm gonna say. And I'm gonna make a pilgrimage to Turin myself, and then I'll let you know what I think when I get back because,

it's pretty cool, but that's what I think. If it's a really genuine artifact, I mean, my goodness, uh, that's just pretty special that we have that. And so I don't want to dismiss that lightly, giving

the type of scholarship that's validating this. If it was just, you know, if it was Benny Hinn running around on the stage with, you know, uh, you know, a facsimile of it, I would, I probably wouldn't believe it even if the evidence was good just because everything that guy says he makes me nervous in the way that he says it. So what about,

in Shroud, it does not look like that. I'm basing this strictly off of, of, of, well, how you guys think. Yeah, yeah, and that I think those, you know, those, those are good points. I mean, it, you know, it doesn't tell us the extent to which his beard, um, he's just, it's just, you know, a passage in Isaiah where he says that I, um, did not turn away from those who plucked out my beard, but it doesn't give us an an actual picture of the of the

extent of that. Um, Isaiah also is the one who says that his visage was marred. Um, more than any person, and so yeah, it it doesn't seem impossible. And, and let me, let me just say this before I say this part. Um, I, I

tend to be skeptical about it. I have my own reasons why I just kind of, uh, you know, if it is great, if I, I'm not putting any, I'm not banking on it at all, but, um, but going back to Answering the, the marred visage, um, I mean, of course, they would have done their best to clean up, um, Jesus before they wrapped him in the burial cloth, so the blood and everything else would have, would have been

all cleaned up. So maybe that explains it too, but, um, but again, I'm, you know, my questions are more like, well, So this appeared, what is it? 12th century, I think is is where it first shows up in history, something like that. Um, and I think, well, uh, you know, the fact that there's not really any reference to it anywhere earlier seems like there, if this was the real deal.

It seems like there might have been some earlier reference to it, and then also, God Himself, I think back to the Old Testament, I think of the um The uh bronze serpent. And remember, Moses was instructed by God to make that bronze serpent, to elevate it among the people who were um bit by these poisonous snakes, and then once they, if they looked to the bronze serpent, they would be healed. Well, that, that bronze serpent was kept by the children of Israel.

It came down in their history, and it was with them during the time of the prophet Isaiah. And they were idolizing it. They were worshiping it in some way. Oh, the bronze serpent, the bronze serpent, and, and the prophet said it's a, it's a thing of, or the king actually said it's a thing of brass,

and he took it and he broke it. And so there is this tendency to take relics, we know that this has happened over and over again, especially in the medieval church, um, to take relics and then to Uh, sort of worship through them or something like that, so.

Since something like the shroud would have that kind of a tendency to lead people into a weird sort of idolatry over this piece of cloth, that also makes me question whether God would, you know, allow something to happen like that, that this kind of thing could develop around. So Bobby.

that's not a real issue for me there. I mean, the type of things that are compelling is when you consider, you know, they're using like a first century style of weaving, um, that, that or the type of weaving that they would use for garments, um, is in concert with what you would see in the first century. Um, it, it perfectly depicts a Roman crucifixion victim, um, that has been laid out. Um, you have real blood, so, you know, it's not been painted.

On there, so I think that that can be helpful. It, it, it's got pollen, um, remnants that they've detected from Jerusalem. So you take a Roman crucifixion, uh, pollen, uh, the blood stains, uh, the staining, uh, because even though they had cleaned him up, he would have continued, um, bleeding.

Uh, as well, uh, and, uh, it seems like that that it fits in line with the spear in the side, the crown of thorns on the head, and so you put some of that stuff together, it's enough to cause us to say, OK, that's pretty

and I'll let you know. Oh perfect or not reporting right on the spot. Yes, that'll work. All right, 888-564-6173 is our number, and now we're gonna talk to Sandra in Orange County, California. Welcome to Pastor's perspective, Sandra. Hi, thank you for taking my call. Yeah, what's going on? How can we help you today? So, I have, uh, on my fam on my husband's side, there's a lot of uh

Immigrants, um, that came over. So right now, considering all the things that are going on, I'm getting a lot of backlash because of I supported my decision for the current president.

Um, they know I'm a, a follower of Christ, so now I'm getting a lot of backlash, uh, because of my support and sending me videos of what's going on and saying how can you call yourself a follower of Christ, seeing all this happening and why are you so heartless and so on and excuse me, and then uh asking me what would Jesus do?

You know, and all this sad comments. So I'm calling to see your perspective and if you can give me some scriptures that I can Either read, uh, and if you have anything on why we have borders, is there anything in the Bible in regards to that. Mhm. OK. Phil Metzger, what would you say to Sandra?

Um, boy, boy, oh boy, oh boy, lots to say on that, um, and then choosing words carefully, just because these things are It kind of, um, you know, whenever there's a topic that then like kind of hits a touch point of politics. It becomes a very binary, like people see it as one way or the other. And I think as Christians, we just need to like not like we're not to be like swayed by You know, like, you know, you voting for the current president doesn't mean everything that he does you think is

like amazing, vice versa. Just because somebody didn't doesn't mean everything they think is bad. But that's kind of the context that we live in right now. That's not a very healthy, that's not a very healthy environment. And so, but we're not going to change that. You and me talking on the Phone or on through the radio aren't going to fix that, right?

And so that's just a part of it. But I think it is like a good kind of a reminder of like, we, you know, we as Christians, regardless of, like, you know, political sway, we want to, like, you know, we take very seriously what the Bible says, like, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul,

and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. And so, you know, I think, I think for me, and again, all the, the other guys can talk about this maybe from different angles cause there's so many different angles we could talk about. I would simply say, whilst I'm, uh, you know, my, my kind of center would be, we're in a situation where like, you know, as a Christian, I'm, I'm still, you know, primarily focused just on like, how do I

serve the people that God brings into my life. I um You know, whether they're, you know, like I'm not looking for people's like passports or immigration status to love them as Christ loves me, so I'm not thinking of it in those terms. I get that those are issues, but it's sad that it's kind of really separating people and yeah, and I'm personally like I think it's shameful the way things are being handled, but that's a personal opinion, not a biblical one.

Brian, uh, Sandra, when you said about your, your husband's family and, um, immigrants, did. Are they uh supporting illegal immigration? Is that what they're, they're saying should be the case and actually borders are are wrong and not Christian? Is that what they're implying? Yes, and that they do the majority of the work here in our country. Mm. The heavy labor, of course, uh stolen land and yeah, yeah, yeah, all of the, yeah, all the rhetoric that is right

now very, it's all very, very heated. Um, yeah, and that that's quite difficult, I think, um, but you know, Phil lives uh just A stone's throw away from the Mexican border. And if he's gonna go to Mexico, he's gonna have to pass through the border, and he's gonna have to be allowed into Mexico. Uh, by the border, uh, you know, by the Mexican government, and there's not a country in the world that you're gonna go to and you're not gonna have a border

that you're gonna have to cross at some point. So the idea that we should just suddenly decide like, oh, we don't, we don't want borders anymore, we don't need borders anymore, that, that's ludicrous, um, and it's just, it's an idea that comes from such a weird. Perspective on reality that I think we just have to kind of persevere through it. It's there's hardly anybody that I, I would think you could reason with on this stuff because it's so, it's so highly emotional. Um, the Bible,

you ask for something biblical about borders. Well, God, um, he set the boundaries for the nation of Israel, and he made it very clear, these, these are the borders right here. And then he also, um, divided the land up among the various tribes, and there

were borders that separated one tribe from another. So, uh, you know, there's no passage in the, in the scripture that says, OK, go set up a border, but God does it himself, and it, it sort of sets a model, you know, for us, and, and then again, most nations throughout history have done this very thing. Um, so, You know, and the, and the lines are so blurred in the stuff that I hear, the lines are so

blurred between legal and illegal immigration. So if, if you say that no, people need to come legally, then you're against immigration. Well, you know, you're not against immigration, you just think that they, people should go through a process. Now granted, politically, our previous um administration. Just sort of, you know, threw all of that to the wind and, and allowed millions of people to come

into the country illegally and that's an unfortunate, uh, situation. I, I do think the other side and the difficulty is that. There, there does seem to be in many cases, um, a real lack of wisdom.

When it comes to how to carry out the deportations, and I think in some cases it's just completely wrong and they they need to go back to the drawing board and say we're not going to go into an elementary school and take out a, uh, you know, a kid to get their parents or, you know, those kinds of things, I think, oh God help us, you know, it is, it is really tough. We'll see what Bobby Conway has to say, if anything, when we come back from the break here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173.

Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call if you want to ask Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, or Phil Metzger a question. Again, that's 888-564-6173. Right before the break we were talking to Sandra about the, uh, border situation. We heard from Phil, we heard from Brian. Bobby, I don't know, did you want to chime in on this?

oh maybe our country got off the wrong way. Well, let's just say it was, it was horrible what happened to some of the natives, but That at the end of the day, you don't keep screwing up because people screwed up in the way that they have dealt with the land, right? Like, it it, so if there was land that was taken away or whatever, it doesn't mean that generation after generation can't have a

process because of the way that, you know, it originated. Uh, that would, that would be a wrong way of thinking. Uh, not only that, um, as Brian said, uh, if you go to Mexico, you're gonna get stopped. Like you can't go anywhere in the world and just expect that

you can drop in. And not only that, on top of that, you got to think about um Even schools, like all the things in our country, the expectations, like there's expectations if you wanna work in certain places, if you wanna play on a certain team, if you wanna go to a university. So why in the world would we see it as a problem or exclusivistic that we're making sure that people

share our values? Now, I get it, like the process seems to be uh uh on getting people out there that I'm not validating that that that's going right, nor am I saying that the process of legal immigration is smooth. It takes a long time. I think there's a lot of work to be done on how people can come in quicker who really share and how people can go out in a better fashion.

But the argument should never be about uh just opening the borders and never even having conversations because this stuff's gonna change the worldview of our entire culture and we

should be guardians of our vision. It's like in our home, but everything we do, we think about like the types of people that we would share with and there are some viewpoints, and if you're gonna come into our country and start burning down our flag, Uh, that's a problem, and I personally would be when I watch the news and people burning the American flag. I think that that should, shouldn't be messed around with.

I mean, if I was the president and I saw people out burning our flag, I mean, I would act swiftly on something like that. That's a problem. Uh, and we're, and another thing that's a problem is, you know, when I was a kid, I used to see, like, watch the news with Beirut and see them burning stuff down, and I thought, man, I'm so thankful I don't live in the Middle East. This stuff looks crazy. And now it feels like I'm watching in our own country.

This crazy violence, uh, in our animalistic behavior and so far from evolving, I mean, there's something really broken right now in our country.

It's the same people that set up their little communist world in Seattle, you know, it's it's the same group of people that kind of just go around. They're agitators, they're professional, they're paid, and they do this, they burn down, they burn cars on the street, they burn down buildings, they loot stores and things like that. So, I mean that in and of itself is an indication that, you know, there's something really wrong on on

one side of this. But like I said a minute ago, I do think, and I, and, you know, I had a conversation with somebody the other day and we were praying about this, that, you know, just praying that the, the um You know, ICE and, and the DOJ and, you know, whoever, Homeland Security and, and all of those people. Lord, just give wisdom, you know, is there somebody that could kind of just have the voice of wisdom to say like, OK,

this is how we're going to navigate this. And it's, it's, it's almost like a between a rock and a hard place because there's just always gonna be people that are opposed, you know. But, but if there's somebody that had the kind of wisdom to say, like, hey, no, we're not gonna do this. We're, we're not gonna, you know, if, if we're looking for the uncle that's gonna attend a graduation ceremony, and we know he's going to be there, so we're gonna bust him. No,

we're gonna not bust him at the graduation ceremony. We're gonna actually have to work it out to find a way to get him into, you know, I mean, it's just like common sense. It's like you're, you're, you know, You're scaring people to death, and there's a lot of people who are not even illegally here, but because they're Latino. Uh, they're walking around thinking, am I gonna get swept up and Locked up just because I'm not white. And I think that that's real. I just realized my

last name is Perez. Your last name is Perez. Oh no, but you know what? I have, it's weird because I have not been thinking at all the last, oh, they're gonna come get me. I'm saying. Yeah, but I have no fear of that, but I know that there are people, there are people that do, yeah, and I know people that that do that that are

like that. And so, um, so that's, we, there has to be some kind of sensitiveivity to that, but you know that we're talking about government and government isn't known for um Sensitivity and all of that sort of stuff, you know, especially in the midst of the chaos that we have going right now. So Sandra, I don't even know, are we helping you at all? Are we, I mean, you're, you're really in a tough situation. Yes. OK, thank you. Did that help a bit? Yes, thank you for all your

Your wisdom. OK. OK. And Lord, we pray for Sandra, we just pray that. In this heated situation with her family, um, just help her. Lord, it's not easy to be on the, the receiving end of that, that kind of, um, Anger and, and all of that. So just give her grace, be with her. And Lord, as people are equating this with um Oh, this is what Christians believe, or the church is teaching this or or any of that stuff, Lord, just help, we pray and um.

It's perplexing times and we pray for wisdom, and we pray for, you know, the processes, and we pray that you would give people in in power and leadership, give them wisdom on how to navigate this in a way that would be not dehumanizing, uh, but a way that would be right. In Jesus' name Amen. Amen. Sandra, thank you for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective. And now let's go to Alexander and Crestline. Thank you, Alexander, for calling 888-564-6173. Hi, God bless you.

Thank you. You too. Who was that? My, that was my 4 year old daughter, Lily. She said, I wanna say hi on the radio. Well, I had, I had to let her, let her know that she's, she's a celebrity now, everybody knows her now. Hey man. Keep, keep us in fair always for sure, um, but gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you so much for taking the call. Uh, my question today, I, I'm

gonna step outside. Uh, so my question today is, OK, let me preface this with a short story about a year ago I was, um, debating. Uh, gentlemanly, I was having a, a gentlemanly discussion with 1/7 Day Adventist with regards to annihilationism versus uh eternal conscious torment. And obviously, I was, I was supporting the latter because that's what I had always been taught.

And he was making some good points, but I'm like, oh, dude, heretic, I'm about to go refute this guy's face off, so I, I get the word, and I was very surprised by the amount of destruction language, and I guess just, it was just, there was, there was an overwhelming. Basis of evidence that talked about the destruction of one's soul, never to be resurrected again, versus human beings actually suffering forever in, in some sort of eternal state of consciousness.

And that was about a year ago. Honestly, I brought it up to a few friends, and, uh, kind of let it go. I'm just like, oh, that was interesting, but I didn't really hold on to it too tight.

And just recently, a Bible teacher that I follow, he did a deep dive on the cultural context behind the immortal soul and And different things, and I'm just, I'm at this place where I'm just, I'm so thoroughly convinced of destruction of the unbelievers, uh, and I was just kind of wondering where you guys would come down on that and what verses you would use to support it. Bobby Conway, we'll start with you.

You can see how people arrive in both places, uh, but just You know, if, if you're gonna be a person that holds to, uh, eternal conscience torment, then you have to be able to know how to reconcile the verses that talk about, uh, destruction, destroy, uh, you know, and then some people would say, you know, when he's talking about destruction, it's not like you're gonna mean, you know, not taking destruction is out of existence, uh, like if I stepped on a Coke can and I crushed the can,

Uh, destroyed the can. The can doesn't go out of existence. The can was destroyed from operating out its original intent. So, uh, there's arguments that people will give that hold the eternal conscious torment, like the one I just did, to explain destruction doesn't mean to not exist, it just means destroyed from existing for the purpose for which you are meant to exist. And then when it comes to the annihilationists or somebody who holds to conditional.

Immortality, they would say something like, well, the Bible uh uses these verses like you, you know, for being destroyed. Uh, and then they're gonna have to come up with arguments. Well, what about all the evidence that says, you know, gnashing of teeth forever and ever, or, you know, uh, you know, the, the, the sheep and the goats being separated, you know, the sheep going into eternal life, and then the goats going into eternal death. Well, the same Greek word for eternal,

Ionian is used to refer to the goats. So if you're gonna say that. About that passage that it's referring to destruction, well, then how can we believe that our eternal life really means eternal? So I don't think it is as clear. I think that it gives me a hope, and I think that it's exciting to know that there's, I don't think that

you're a heretic for holding that by any means. Uh, I've interviewed Chris Da, uh, who's a 5 point Calvinist, and he's written a lot of stuff on this, including his whole Rethinking Hell. Uh, so I would, uh, say I don't see people being outside of orthodoxy with that viewpoint, because there is a way that I think they're trying to be biblically faithful, but I don't think it's overwhelming to me, um, that Uh, that it just totally gets rid of the eternal

conscious torment. So I hold the eternal conscious torment, but I'm hopeful that you're right.

Annihilation. However, there is this kind of, I think almost like this like missional push where you are, you're really aware of the fact that like the stakes are so insanely high as it relates to the gospel and eternity that it requires me as a as a person of God to be so. Just like present with the idea that like, I don't want anyone, I wouldn't want that anyone would perish, but

that everyone would have eternal life. And so I would like, I like the compassionate like theological position for me would be, gosh, I really hope that that uh annihilation is a valid, you know, position, but in terms of, I think like Just mythologically, I look at this and I say, OK, Lord, how do I live? Like I don't want to just assume like, well, they're just not going to exist anymore.

But no, the Bible's pretty clear on like we are, we're to present a gospel that says like there is you can be rescued from hell and from sin and death and shame. So um hold the same position as Bobby and believe that that that view is meant to like stir us to to um to to a real serious um understanding of evangelism. Alexander, what do you think of all this? Oh, I love it, and I would agree, you know, in Proverbs, it says, it's good to hold one and

not let go of the other. So I'm, I'm still totally open to the idea of, you know, eternal conscious torment, but it's also, it's a truth that sets us free, right? Not some extreme antithesis of eternal life, and it's, it's just, it's, it's really profound when you think of like, OK, so if eternal life is eternal life and eternal destruction. It could it mean permanent destructions, could the same qualities that reflect eternal life just, it's like 0 plus infinity

is zero, right? So 1 plus infinity is Is actually infinity. Um, oh, there's, there's so many points I want to bring up. They're all getting stuck at the front door, if you know what I mean, but, uh, yeah, thank you, thank you guys so much for your time. And, you know, one thing it is for me, and this is, this is where it brought me about a year ago, was, am I just afraid of hell? Like, do I just want to escape eternal conscious torment, or do I actually

love life? And it's like, how many atheists or secular people out there. enjoy life. There's, there's things in their life that they

enjoy to do. They love their family, they love this, but they resent this God who would throw someone into hell for, forever, for any, any possible thing, like anything we could do in this life, does it really merit eternal suffering, and you could argue the killing of Jesus and the responsibility that weighs on the human soul, but it's like, what if that same atheist was like, fine, I just, I'll just, I just want

to not exist. But then as they go through life and they enjoy, you know, the, the blessing of having a young daughter or whatever it is, and they just say, you know what, this, this is life and I like this, and this life must have come from somewhere, and I want it to continue and, you know, that's what actually draws them to Christ instead of resentment over a God that they believe to be unjust as a result of

a misinterpretation. Yeah, but I, I tend to think, um, Alexander, that um if Yeah, a person who resents God over that. Um, issue would, if you resolve that, you're gonna find another. Issue to resent God over. I don't, I don't think it's, I don't really think that's the issue, even though people

will say that it is the issue. Um, I, I think there are, you know, many, many other things and um I, I just think, you know, Bobby Bobby, I think referred to it and um You know, when Jesus talks about the goats, you know, they go into everlasting punishment. So If you Again, we already talked about the the word everlasting being the same for both life and and punishment, but

You can't punish, you can't be punished if you don't exist. So, you know, as hard as it is to maybe swallow it or to get our head around it, um, it seems like that is what the text is saying. And, and I, I've said this before, but I think when it comes to hell, just as an idea, I think part of the problem with our being able to accept it is we We fail in two places. Number 1, we don't understand that the absolute holiness of God, nor 2, do we

understand the total sinfulness of human beings. And I think we tend to think better of ourselves than we actually should. Um, I just heard something, um, a couple of days ago. About just like just an unimaginably evil kind of a thing. That somebody is perpetrating on another person and not being um Not being dealt with, uh, for it. Um, so in other words, those who could deal with it are just sort of turning a blind eye to it and this person is allowed to go on in this very cruel, um,

torment of this individual. And, and I just think that that is so wicked that this kind of stuff actually goes on in the hearts of people, um. So I, I think. I, I think it's safer to say there are things that I can't figure out, there are things that I don't understand. There are things that won't really sit right with me. But What do I know? I'm a sinner. I'm, I'm not God. So, uh, we know that God so loved the world, and we know that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should

come to repentance. But if people do perish, then they will perish because they have chosen to resist and reject. And if that's eternal, then I think that we just have to leave that in God's hands. Yeah, Bobby.

so therefore it's eternal. And that argument doesn't really sit the best with me for some reason it does with others, uh, but, uh, I get it, God's eternal, but just because God is eternal, that is that why, you know, that you're gonna be punished eternally. I think that probably the better answer is what I heard William Lane Craig say that the reason that you, you're in hell, you know, is, and it goes on

for hours because the sinning continues on. It's not like you send less when you get to hell, you send more. You're bereft of God's general grace that's no longer there in your life, and now you're just fully left to your fallen nature. And then, um, I feel like that, that does make sense that that people are gonna be really vile in that state.

Uh, but I think it comes down to trust that if God is just, he's not willing that any should perish, he genuinely loves the world, um, you know, he's not willing that any should perish, uh, and that no one will be without excuse. If those verses are accurate. Then I think we can rest and trust in him, but if it's causing a non-believer to go, I won't even look at the Lord because I can't imagine an eternal hell. Well, then my evangelism tactic would be, well, uh,

you know, there's plenty of people that believe in annihilation. Um, you know, let's not let The fact of eternal hell, get in your way of believing in the gospel. Let's first look at the cross and consider that. And, and, and then you can read some of these books by people that have written on this, but I wouldn't want to let that get in the way of somebody ever believing. And so that's where the younger, older thing is somebody needs to not.

Someone doesn't feel like they can witness to somebody unless the person becomes a young Earth creationist and a gospel believer, or eternal conscious torment and a gospel believer. I think sometimes we try to get people to digest things that we need to trust the spirit on the other side of justification to take care of.

I don't want to talk down. I'm sure you already know this, but to make sure, you know, everybody's Um, understanding the same thing, that means a person who is Jewish, born Jewish, like Jewish blood, who has put the faith in.

Exactly, they put, they put their faith in Jesus. So that, that's just describing the person and then in terms of what is their theology of the end times, there's many, you know, I think of like ministries like Jews for Jesus, they lean towards that that particular view of end times that a pre-tribulation rapture. Other other I know Messianic Jews who believe different than that. So that's a different theological issue that isn't connected to them being a Messianic Jew. Right.

Um, yeah, that, that's, that's a great Phil and I, um, it's, it's interesting because, you know, I've, I've been to Israel several times and I have, uh, Israeli friends who are believers in Jesus. And it and it's funny because, um, Like you said, they don't all hold to the exact same thing. And uh I've even had conversations with Israeli friends who they're, they're a little bit.

They they sort of get weary with the, uh, American, um, evangelical dispensation list who is always talking about the rapture and talking about Russia coming down and talking about all of that stuff, and they're, uh, they've even said to me, like, you know, like, you know, we don't really talk about that stuff here. I mean, that's kind of just what

you guys do over there. So it was almost like, uh, we, we're not really, we don't, we're not asking you here to give us like a prophecy update, you know. We, we just need to know how to follow Jesus and serve Him. So. Jamiah, thanks for your phone call, and we're out of time. Sorry to those of you that we couldn't get to today. We'll be back tomorrow

from 3 to 4 p.m. Pacific time. We're going to archive today's episode on Facebook, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify in just a little bit if you want to hear any portion again. Or share it with friends or whatever you want to do, it'll be there for you. And thank you for listening today, thank you for watching as well. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Thank you, Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and Phil Metzger. I'm Brian Perez, and yeah, we'll talk to you tomorrow. Good night. God bless.