Pastors' Perspective - 06/03/2025

send in your questions online. We've got the Pastor's perspective Instagram, you can DM us there. You can also go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page. Easiest thing to do is to click on my forehead when the pastor's perspective banner goes by, and that'll take you right to the page. You can fill out that form and get it to us, or you can go to the pastor's perspective Facebook page, and using messenger, you can get your question.

to us. But the best way, at least for us, is when you call in and talk to us, dialogue. We love to hear the sound of your voice. We love to interact with you, see what's going on in your life. So call us at 888-564-6173. Brian Broderson will be here momentarily, but right now we've got author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway, the senior pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, and also the graphite apologist on YouTube. How you doing, Bobby?

I'm doing good. How you doing, buddy? Doing all right, and look who just walked in, getting in my camera shot right now. He loves doing that. He does it on purpose. Brian Broderson is here now. How are you, sir? You can answer the question without having to put the earbuds in. Yes, I'm fine. It was wrapped up in. Like your earbuds are right now one of those, you know, one of those phone calls where you're trying to get something sorted out.

And you're on the line for 45 minutes. And sometimes you don't even accomplish what you were trying to do, but thankfully, I did. You couldn't just tell them I have to be on the radio at 3 o'clock. You know, I was about to drop the radio card on them, but It ended. It ended right in the nick of time. Oh good. And so I'm here just 2 minutes late. Yes, not bad, but even less than 2 minutes. I knew you guys could handle this for 2 minutes without me. Yes,

we were doing pretty good. We were just talking about the day and all that, so we heard about your day, yep. Very good. Yeah, good, very good. It's all good. So I, I have, um, a new grandbaby that was, um, holding just a few minutes ago, and my oldest daughter is here visiting because, uh, she has a new niece and she likes to come and be an encouragement to my younger daughter and all of that's great, um, but you know, it it it's involved, so.

So we've been busy. Yesterday we had uh a whole crew of grandkids that Sheryl and I spent the day with, which was a blast, and so, Yep. Oh, that's so much fun. Yeah, isn't that great? Our daughter just headed off today with the twins and it's hard to see them leave though when you get attached to those babies. Yes, and you know, the older they get, the more attached you get to, because once they start interacting with you and recognizing you, oh, that's just when it gets really, really sweet.

Well, I, you know, it's crazy. I, I've always heard how amazing the grandparents season is and like I don't even know it's Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not making this up. It's like just, it's for me anyway, it's been Indescribable, like the joy that these these twins have brought into my life and the connection that I feel with these little infants, it's so powerful that, you know, I mean, I'll get in tears and stuff, uh, just when they're leaving or I, I, I or just looking at them.

I mean, I'm just wanna be with them all the time, so it just tears my heart up that they're not living near me. Yeah, well, That's what it is to be a grandpa. This makes your heart long even more, right? Right. All right. 888-564-6173 is the number to call to get your question to us. You can also send them in on Facebook like I said, here's one that I Idania sent in. She says, I live in Okinawa, and I listen to you on Spotify.

I'm a huge fan of the program. I love you all. Uh, my question is, if Adam and Eve only had 3 sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth, who did Seth and Cain marry and have children with? And then another question she sent in, uh, in the book of Genesis, I learned that Rebecca and her son Jacob tricked Isaac into believing that Jacob was his brother Esau for the Lord's blessing before he dies. What I don't understand is how come this was OK for God, knowing that they both lied to Isaac.

Uh, the whole blessing was based on a lie. Please help me understand this. Bobby, we'll start with you, you can chime in on both questions or take one or the other. Sure, I can I'll start with the last one, and Brian wants to add to that, and then he can pick up the first one, but uh The the blessing that comes as a result of What took place wasn't because of what took place. It was because God promised ahead of time that the older would serve the younger, right, before they were born.

So the blessing wasn't based on uh disobedience, it was based on God's sovereign grace and in a lot of ways. You know, it's just a picture of how God works in our life. I, we, we don't always act in a way that we should. Our motivations aren't always right, and yet he still blesses us. And I think that when we read the scriptures, it's descriptive versus prescriptive. It's describing an event that happened, but it's not prescribing.

Uh, the way that we're to go about getting blessings in life, it's describing that God is gracious with even a deceiver, and that should be of comfort to us to know that God still blesses us even though we're twisted all up at times, Brian. Uh, yeah, to answer the first question really quickly, um, Genesis 5:4 tells us that Adam and Eve had many uh sons and daughters. So, um, that that's a, that's

a simple answer. The the reason that you only have the reference to Cain and Abel and Seth is because the Bible is not really like a, a history of the world as much as it is a history of God's redemptive plan. So, The Bible gives us information about people who are relevant to the redemptive plan, but it doesn't tell us about

everybody who was in the world at the time. So, obviously, um, Cain and Abel, uh, Cain, especially, obviously, uh, Abel doesn't seem to have been married, uh, but they would have, um, married their, their family members at that point that were not given any other information about. And then the other thing, going back to what Bobby said, which is a great answer, but also Um, We see As we follow, uh, the life of Jacob, that the consequences of those actions began to work themselves out negatively

in Jacob's life. So just like he deceived his father, so he would be deceived by his father-in-law. And so it was almost a kind of a sowing and reaping kind of a thing. So like Bobby said, uh, the text is descriptive. It's just, it's telling us what happened. It doesn't say uh whether God Approved of it or not. But if we look at scripture in general, we would, I think, have to conclude that this was not the way God had planned for

it to happen. This is what happens when people take things into their own hands and do them their way instead of God's way, and then in the long run that that creates trouble. Um, I taught a message years ago from Genesis, and I entitled it, God's will, God's Way. And I based it on Jacob, who was a man who was passionate about the will of God, but it doesn't seem that he

Took the way of God into consideration many times. He wanted the will of God, but he thought, well, I could probably help God out here, uh, to get the will done. So that's where, I mean, that's a lesson for us, uh, still this very day, um, as we're seeking God, as we're wanting to be in his will, that's good, but we need to make sure that. We are trusting God to show us the way into that and not trying to make, make that happen ourselves. Bobby,

Yeah, such a good answer. God's will, God's way. Boy, isn't that the truth right there? I'd say as it relates to, um, you know, the marrying of the siblings too, uh, to keep in mind, cause it is very strange for us to think about all of that, um, and you're right to, you know, ask the question that you did. But if humanity was to start from an original pair, uh,

there's no way around that. And so the explanation at the beginning is the fact that the genetic, uh, you know, pool wasn't corrupt yet in the sense that it is today, where there's lots more mutations. So, You know, they would be able to, you know, come together to get the human race kicked off, but then in time, obviously God would speak out against any form of incest and stuff like that, but it just goes to show that sometimes the way you start something isn't the way you keep it going.

Uh, and that's a spiritual principle, uh, that, uh, you can't look at maybe the way something started in this instance and then make a case for, oh, this is the way it needs to stay, and it's not that God's changing his mind, he understands that the mutations are going to take place and there's gonna need to be a different method for multiplying the human race. Very good. Idania. Thank you for sending in your question

on Facebook Messenger all the way from Okinawa. Yes, and it's so good to know that we have a listener in Okinawa, at least one. That's awesome. Ian, spread the word. All right, 888-564-6173 is the number to call. By the way, something new has been added. If you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, you will see, sometimes a, uh, QR code

there on the bottom of the screen. So if you click that or if you scan that QR code, then You that will take you right to that page that I was talking about where you can send in your question on kwave.com. So you don't have to flick my forehead anymore, which is good because I was developing a divot right here and uh there it is. So you just scan that and it'll take you right now if you're watching on your phone, I don't know how you would scan it with your phone. I don't think you can,

but it'll borrow your neighbor's phone. Yes, borrow your neighbor's somebody on the street. Hey, can I use your phone for a minute and then you do it. And then they end up going to the K wave page. Wow, it's like evangelism right there. Yes, that's how we do it now in the, uh, 21st century. So check that out. 888-564-6173. Let's talk to Clay in Anaheim, who downloaded the Kwave

app and is calling in today. Hey there, Clay, what's up? Hi. Um, yeah, after the tribulation, you know, the earth will be pretty much destroyed. So, when Christ comes back, is he gonna clean it up before he sets up his kingdom in Jerusalem, or what? Yep, that's exactly what he's gonna do. Now remember too that the tribulation um A lot of the tribulation activity, the wars and those kinds of things, they're somewhat.

I, I don't wanna say limited, like they're not global, but, you know, like, like World War 1, World War 2, they, they were. World wars because virtually everybody was engaged in it, but not every place was affected by the war equally. So obviously in the Second World War, much of continental Europe was obliterated, particularly Germany and those um Axis nations. Um, And yet, um, you know, the United States was not

touched at all by the Second World War in that sense. So, so I think when we think of the, the tribulation period, the, the what we call the Battle of Armageddon, or I think probably better way to understand it is the battle for Jerusalem, um, that's gonna be geographically focused on that region. And yet, when we look at the other things that are described in Revelation, the whole planet is going to

be affected by this, but not equally. But Jesus, according to Zachariah, he is going to actually rebuild the temple when he returns. And so I see this as um A massive cleanup project led uh by the Lord Himself. You know, there's an interesting passage in Ezekiel.

I think it's in 39, where it talks about um the the armies of Gog and Magog, how they're destroyed and how they go through and they put these markers, and then over this period of time, they bury the bodies, and the few, uh, the weapons are used for fuel for um 7 years. And so, I think all of that is speaking of a restoration project that is undertaken by the Lord when he returns. And I do think that We make the mistake to kind of think of it in in magical terms, like Jesus is gonna come back,

he's gonna snap his fingers and everything is gonna be perfected. Um, I don't think that's exactly what's gonna happen. I think it's gonna be more of a process led by the Lord himself. So if you read Zacharias say, Uh, chapters 3 through maybe 7 or all the all the way through 9, I think you'll see that, um, being worked out there and then Ezekiel 39 as well. Could those be the jobs that we'll have in heaven, I think, uh. Well, we won't be in heaven. We'll be on earth. Oh,

never mind. So Bobby, any thoughts? We'll be ruling and reigning with. We'll be telling other people, clean that up, you know. Yeah, no, great answer. What do you think, Clay? Um, Well, will there be like, oh, you said there's a, a new temple, right? Or would that be like I mean the I guess the clean up process would. I don't know how long would that take? because it'd be like 1000 years to, well, it's 1000 years, yes, the period is 1000 years. I don't think it's gonna take too long.

Um, I, you know, we're talking about a beautiful 1000 year reign of Christ where the kingdom is established on the earth, so I don't think we're gonna be, um, sort of wandering around in rubble for a a large part of that. I think that the first order of business will be to, to sort that out. And then, uh, you know, with the temple, we read about Jesus. That's just fascinating because people, I think a lot of times miss this, uh, that he will sit upon the throne.

As a king, and he will also be a priest, and the two offices that have always been separated will be united in him and it's there that it says that, and he will rebuild the temple. Now, some people would say, well, that's spiritual, that's not a literal temple because we know that the, you know, there isn't going to be a temple because there's no need for sacrifices and so forth. And um this is a theological perspective that many hold.

Um, but I think that I, I, I'm more inclined to just look at the text and And not try to force a theological understanding on it, but just look at it and see what it says. And, you know, it says that that Jesus is gonna get, Jesus said that he was gonna come back to Jerusalem. He said to the temple, people at the temple, you will not see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And so. Anyway, that's a kind of a different discussion.

Clay, thank you for calling in today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today. We've got Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway answering your questions until 4 o'clock. So what would you like to ask them? 888-564-6173. Here's Deb, who's calling in from Costa Mesa, also listening on the Kwave app. What's up, Deb? Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. I have been mentoring a lady who was raised Islamic Muslim, very devout, who has

Uh, converted, been baptized. I'm praising God for that. The church that I met her through is not our, I, I go listen to Char on 8:30 service, you know, every Sunday, but it's, this is another church. And so I've been going to her service because I'm mentoring her. Well, I've also been going to one of their small groups. Turns out we have people that are praying privately in tongues, feeding the blood, and have Pastors that are women that

Teach men and have spiritual authority over men. And so being the, the biblical person that, that I want to be, that I believe God wants me to be, I feel convicted about walking away from this church. And I wanted to know what the pastor's perspective is on A church that, I mean, obviously, is putting Jesus in his rightful place, preaching the word on Sunday, beautiful worship service. But then in small group, I hear about how wonderful it is to have these private conversations with God and

tongues and I'm like, mm mm. And then I hear this, this thing that we were studying for the group on pleading the blood, and I'm like, mm, OK, God, what are you telling me, Lord? All right, Bobby Conway, what do you tell Deb? Yeah, well, I, uh, uh, there's obviously a lot of churches that we can go to and find issues that

won't always, uh, resonate with us. Uh, the question that, you know, we have to sometimes ask is Let's say somebody came to our church, but somebody didn't, you know, agree with the way we did things, but they felt called to stay. Uh, well, I might think that I wish you felt called to not stay because this is just gonna be a wrestling match where you feel called to tell me what's wrong with the church, uh, and because you're on

a mission to fix it. And I get the heart of that because your heart wants to see, you know, biblical alignment, um. I would say probably the better thing to do is sit down and talk to the leadership and more than

likely they've thought through their philosophy, their views. And so, if anything, well, I think it's commendable anytime that we want to, uh, stay and help, I think that you just got to realize what that means and if you kind of meet a bunch of resistance, it doesn't mean that God can't or would never work, but, uh, If anything, you might find that they're pretty set and you're on a, you know, a fool's errand for a

task that you might just feel more frustrated. And then the danger is, is it can start causing some division in the church because if you're sharing, hey, they're doing this and they're doing that, and then the pastors are having to spend time addressing these different types of issues, uh, that can, that can just become an exhausting, uh, process for everybody. Uh, so all that to say, you know, I would probably just talk to the pastor, see where he's at,

see if he's even open to changing that biblically. Um, he might even feel threatened by the conversation. He might not, you know, I just don't know anything about him or the people, uh, but God can still work through the church in spite of some of the things that maybe we would do differently, and that's something I take comfort in as well. Right. Yeah, I, I think that the church, um, that she's

referring to is a Pentecostal church. And so this would be the kinds of things that you would, you would see within, say, an assembly of God church or a four square church. Uh, they're kind of the two prominent, um, Pentecostal denominations in In the country, there, there are more and their charismatic and Pentecostal similarities, but there are some difference, some differences

between them. But, but the description there is uh very much a description of Pentecostalism, where you've got the uh brain and tongues, um, you know, in the smaller group, which I don't, I don't think there's anything the matter with that. I think that in a smaller group that is where You want to do that, and we believe in that at Calvary Chapel, uh, pleading the blood of Jesus. I mean, that's,

that's language that it's not exclusively Pentecostal. I've heard lots of people at Calvary Chapel plead the blood of Jesus. The idea, you know, is that there's power in the blood. We sing a hymn, there's power in the blood, power in the blood. So here's the situation. That's very difficult, very challenging, and so Lord, when we say we're we're pleading the blood, we're we're what we're really just saying is God, you know, bring your power to bear upon this thing.

And so, So again, these are uh Pentecostal types of practices, and in many of those churches, they do have women pastors as well, and that's part of their um denominational commitment. And so we recognize women in various roles of leadership uh at Calvary Chapel, um, not in the senior pastor role, but we do recognize that women can be in Places of shepherding, which is what it is to pastor, so. Should we be singing songs about pleading the blood and

the power of the blood? I mean, there's a certain Christian singer out there who thinks that that may offend non-Christians who are in attendance, and, uh, therefore we should not sing songs like that. Well, it's interesting because I, I noticed when you pointed that out a moment ago that one of his songs was something hallelujah. So hallelujah is is Christian, Christian, yeah.

I mean, you know, so, uh, popular singer has made a statement that, um, we shouldn't use Christiane in in Christian music today, and he gave a couple of examples of that, um, because we don't want. People who are New, maybe visiting, uh, they're not gonna have a clue what we're talking about, so they're gonna miss out, you know, that, that sort of thing. Um, I, I think you can I, I think being sensitive to unbelievers is a good idea, but I think you can go too far with it

as well. And I think, you know, we have, I, I think the the question is, is it biblical? You know, we wanna, we wanna speak biblical things. So the example he gave was uh like like using the term holy holy holy in a song. Well, holy holy holy is taken right out of scripture. It's taken right out of Isaiah, it's taken right out of Revelation. So I, I want to I want to use biblical stuff to express.

Worship to God, um, to communicate with people. You know, when you become a Christian, you, you, CS Lewis said this, um, He said Christianity itself is an education and it really is. You, as when you become a Christian, you start to learn all kinds of things you didn't know, and you're gonna learn a bunch of words that you never knew, and you're gonna learn the significance of them. So, so, OK, I get it. I want to be sensitive to the

people who just like, what is that? But not to the point where Um, we're thinking that, well, we've just got to delete all of this and come up with more modern terminology so people aren't confused or bothered or whatever the case. What do you think Bobby?

You know, I, I, I concur fully with that. I think one of the one of the dangers of losing kind of, let's call it Christiane, um, if we mean losing Christianese means losing biblical language, then When you're saying we need to get rid of the Christian, we're saying we need to get rid of the Bible. So that's a problem. When I think of Christiane, I think of just some of the ancillary, you know, stuff that can come up that we could be more cautious about.

But anytime there's language in the scriptures, um, that's not using Christiane, that's just using the Bible. Uh, if we get to that point, then all of a sudden we're sitting over the Bible and we're just getting rid of anything that we don't think people can resonate with. And one of the beautiful things about the Jesus movement, I mean, you take a bunch of people that were just doped out partying all the time.

Uh, and they're drawn straight into to the word of God in the Bible, and it, it didn't have all that hypersensitive stuff. It was straight word, straight worship. And I think that a lot of times this approach is an approach we use in the absence of revival, because now we'll put on our business hats and we'll just do things that practically make sense, that will be catchy, and people will digest. But the problem is that

With that is when difficult times come. A lot of these people that weren't fed on the real truth of God's word, they don't hang out anyway, and I do believe that a sincere believer, uh, you know what things are supposed to fly over your head when you're first saved. I mean, we should explain. But everything was flying over my head as it was yours, as you've talked about Brian. I mean, I didn't know who David and Goliath was. I mean, what was that?

So is that Christianese cause I didn't know what it was, so you're not supposed to use that story. Uh, I think it just meant that I got a big learning curve. I'm a new Christian and the Bible describes me as a spiritual infant, and spiritual infants don't know a lot, but moms and dads don't say, hey, we're not gonna. Talk in English around our kids. We're just gonna goo

goo and gaga with them because that's all they know. No, they end up speaking, you know, they do get sensitive to them, you know, and they'll play and, and, and get on their level, which we should, but they also speak their normal language and the kids grow up. Yep, yep, we will be right back with more of your questions on Pastor's perspective, 888-564-6173. Welcome back to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and in the studio with me is Brian Broderson from

Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. He's one of the pastors there, and joining us online, we've got Bobby Conway, the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You also see him on YouTube channel called The Graphite Apologist. Check that out. So right before the break, we were talking about this recent conversation between a prominent worship leader. It was on a podcast and he was saying that Christiane, like holy, holy holy. I mean, to me, holy holy holy is like the

least Christianese thing. People, even unchurch people would go in thinking, I mean, they would know something that holy hallelujah, like you said, those are things that they may not understand it as a bad example. I, I do think there are things that would fall into that category of Christianese, just, you know, stuff that Christians say that. I know one. The song that says, uh, here I raised my Ebenezer. To me that was just like, what in the world does that mean? You know, that took

me the longest time. Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a tricky one, raising the Ebenezer. Bobby, I was telling Brian though during the break, um, it's interesting that we're talking about this because today I was listening to Justin Briley's podcast and he was, he was having a conversation with, uh, Bishop Robert Barron, uh, the Roman Catholic bishop, and Barron said this it was really interesting because Barron was talking about how like Schelermacher is kind of the father of, um,

you know, theological liberalism, and he was the one who basically, uh, encouraged, hey, you know, the miracles of the Bible, people can't handle that, we need to ditch that, uh, the language, we need to change the language. Basically, we need to be as much like the world as we can if we're going to reach the world. That's kind of, you know, in a. unsophisticated way of describing Charler Marker's view that that was

his view, and that permeated. That's what ended up destroying the mainline denominations as they just brace, embrace the social gospel. So Barron is talking about um how that, you know, that's what happened with Scheidlermacher, and then, um, talking about how today Because they're having a conversation at this AC convention in London that's a a convention with um.

It's, it's a, it's a bunch of conservative people politically, a lot of Christians there, um, people like, um, Jordan Peterson and Os Guinness and, uh, you know, Peterson's not necessarily a Christian, but, but a lot of people thinking similarly on Civilizational ideas. And anyway, all that to say, They were talking about how, how nowadays. People If you, if you adapt the Scheillermacher position, nobody. Nobody gives a darn about anything you have to say

because you're just like everybody else. Why, why would we even, why go to a church that's essentially I don't need to go to church to get this stuff. I can get it anywhere. It's just what everybody thinks and how everybody feels. And then talking about the idea now that even secularists and, and, you know, people that have tended toward atheism and agnosticism are they're the ones who are saying to Christians, hey, keep Christianity weird.

In other words, keep the miraculous in it because that's the attractive stuff, you know, keep these concepts and ideas that we don't hear about anywhere else. And I, you know, Justin was interviewing this one guy who was a very, uh, outspoken, um, atheist, popular YouTube guy who just said, uh, I'm not a Christian yet, but I've been reading the Bible and the Bible makes the most sense of life. I I can't.

You know, I've studied philosophy, I've, you know, all of this stuff, and I have to admit, even though I'm not a Christian yet. Uh, the Bible is really speaking to me about how people should live societally and personally together. So, so anyway, we are here to keep Christianity weird. That's the whole point that I wanted to make. I'm your man.

Yeah, yeah, that's good stuff right there. I mean, Schleiermacher, you know, I mean, he was all about absolute kind of dependence on, you know, the God consciousness, you know, and so he wasn't really concerned with doctrine as much as this inner experience, and you have a lot of that going on with, um, you know, different flares of Christianity where it's all about the experience or connection.

Uh, but, you know, detached from theological doctrine, and I mean, even what I would concur, I mean, on the standpoint, like you, you, we should explain our terms. I don't think there's a, so some people abandon their terms. Some people assume the terms and other people explain the terms and I don't think we should abandon the terms and I don't think we should assume the terms. I think we should explain them. Yeah, I, I, I really

do think it, it is part of our job. This is part of our job description, you know, we're teachers, right? What do teachers do? Teachers teach people stuff that they don't know. They explain stuff, yes, so right. Great conversation today on Pastor's perspective. Let's talk to William now. He's in Ontario, California, listening on FM 107.9. How can we help you, William?

Uh, I know Christians are told that they are to work out their salvation through the blood of Christ, but Isaiah chapter 63 verse 5, the man says, I worked out my salvation with my own right arm. Can you explain that? Uh, yeah, the person who's speaking is God. So he's talking about, um, because there was no man, the Lord said that he, um, brought salvation with his own right arm. So that takes us back to, you know, God, God is the savior, God saves us.

And then the salvation that he gives us, going over to the Philippians passage that you referenced, the salvation that he gives us as a gift, we work that out through our lives. We see that develop and grow and become all that God plans it to be, uh, through the process of, of what's called sanctification. What kind of salvation is God talking about? Salvation is different than earning your salvation. It didn't say earn your salvation. Uh, it said, work out your salvation. In other words, work

out the sal the salvation gift that's been given to you. Like, like demonstrate the gift that's been given through the way you live. Yeah, and the salvation there isn't personal salvation in the context. Need salvation. That's what I was what what does he not God needing salvation. God bringing salvation. No, he's the one to bring salvation is the point that is being made. So therefore, my own arm brought salvation for me, for me, yeah, yeah, yeah,

not like my own arm saved me, but my own arm. Remember, Isaiah 53, to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? That's a reference to Jesus. So God is saying that I, you know, my own arm brought salvation. So, how is salvation gonna happen? I'm going to bring it. And the arm is a reference to how he's gonna bring it through the Messiah. Very good. William, thank you for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective, and now we'll talk to Richard in Costa Mesa. You're on with Brian Broderson

and Bobby Conway. What's up, Richard?

the Bible say anything about that? And then secondly, you know, at Calvary or at Image Church, how would you handle that?

being just a person attending church. Um, I think if you were attending church with the Trump hat on and somebody said, hey, you can't wear that, I, I think that would cross a line right there. Uh, but I think if you're in a position. That, um, is you, you kind of stand out here you are, you know, as an usher, maybe you're handing out bulletins, you're helping people get seated and you got that.

I think that that could potentially be perceived as the there's a message being sent here by this church that, uh, you know, we're we're we're Trump people. And I don't think that that's a message that church should send. I personally, I think that we, that's an area where we need to uh display neutrality, whatever our own conviction is or whoever it is that we're gonna vote for, um, I'm not to advertise that or promote that as somebody who is in a place of recognized

leadership in the church. So that's, that's what I would say probably happened. But, um, not in the same way that if Richard was wearing a, who are the other people? Oh yeah, Biden Harris hat. I forgot the same thing, same thing. It's the same thing because it's a, it's a political statement, and we're not here to make a political statement. We're here to preach the gospel. We're here to, you know, talk about the kingdom of God. And so, Bobby, what do you think?

Yeah, I concur. And, you know, I would just say, Richard, probably imagine if like you had a newer believer to the church, but they were sold out on the Kamala ticket and they showed up at church wearing a Kamala hat. You probably can all of a sudden get a little, oh man, I, that's not the, the look I want. Well, OK, if you're wearing a Trump hat and you're trying to reach new believers, you want to reach them where

they are, and, and we don't start with politics. And so if you get somebody that's coming as a non-believer and maybe they're just totally progressive in their approach, uh, you don't want them to turn away before they come in, and I think that that would be the concern of it. So it just creates a bit of potential division. And so the way that I would handle it. I I would probably walked up to you and said.

Hey, Richard, um, I'm so thankful that you recognize the importance of our place in the political arena and that you're gonna have a voice. Um, one thing I just want to give you a perspective about, and I hope you'll hear my heart on that is just, I think it could potentially, if we're trying to reach non-believers, it could be coming through that maybe even are just total radical progressives.

Uh, and they, and they confront the hat. And what if coming to church is a big thing for them to even come to a Christian church and now they're looking at, and what if they've been being fed Christian nationalism stuff like, I would just want you to think missionally that is that the wisest hat to wear for that moment, given that everyone's not gonna agree and the point shouldn't be about, you know, I have the freedom to wear the hat. You have the freedom to wear the hat.

But I do think the pastor has to think about, well, if I'm putting these greeters out in the front line and they're wearing Harris hats or Biden hats, either way, it's going to create some problems, and the pastoral team doesn't want to have to sit down and have 3 lunches with disgruntled people that week to say, yeah, I know. Oh this person did it, like it just, it, it, it does put work on a pastoral team and then it starts shifting the focus from great commission, and it

can just be problematic. So I would probably say, extend grace to your pastor and realize it it might have nothing to do. He, he might be voting the same way you do. He just might be thinking missionally first as he should. Richard, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173. Now let's talk to Elaine in San Diego, also listening on the Kwave app. Hi, Elaine, what's up? Elaine, are you there? Yes I am here. Thank you for taking my call.

I love your program. I listen every day. Thank you. Just send an email to, uh, Pastor Rodeson through the CGN conference. I look forward to joining. I registered. Oh, good for you. Well, we'll look forward to seeing you there. Elaine, thank you for reminding me. I forgot to tell people about the CGN conference. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. Brian, let's talk about the CGM conference really. Well, let's let's have Elaine do it. So, Elaine, did you

have anything else you wanted to say, or was that it? Yes, I do. I have sent you an email and you can look at it later. Hopefully they would forward to you. My question is, how would the pastors think about the importance of workplace discipleship in the church? And I suppose the answer would be yes, and how would you go about doing that? Can you define workplace discipleship? Sure. So I uh started a ministry named Care to Work in 1996, 29 years ago, when I was still working

for Corporate America. So I worked for 33 years and how I experienced taking Jesus to work and that Jesus is my CEO, how to integrate my faith in the workplace. So this is my passion. The last year at Lausanne in Korea, I also met Dean. I've met him a few times in different conferences. So I announced the launch of the Global Day of Faith at Work. So in partnership with Leon and the World Evangelical, You, you, you announced it in uh in Korea.

In Korea, yeah, good for you. That's great. Yeah, and we celebrate it on May 1st this year as the first annual celebration with thousands of people around the world, and we can share more later on. So the exciting thing is that we need to live out our faith in the workplace. So we define workplace discipleship as Jesus taught us all to be disciples. Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations, and we make disciples teaching us how to read the Bible, how to teach.

Church discipleship is important. We do family discipleship, being parents, children, siblings and such. So we spend most of our week hours at work. How are we doing in the church for workplace discipleship? That's my question and my passion. Well, I think that's a great passion and um I think it's a great mission. And I, and I'm just thinking even as you're saying that, I'm thinking of all the stories I have heard.

All the testimonies I have heard of people who were impacted by a coworker and so I think that um obviously we're all on mission and some of us um a a very small number of us are on mission in the context of a local church that's where we uh live, that's where we work and so forth.

The majority of Christians are not in that place, but they're in some other place, and I think to see that other place that they're at as as a mission field and have the maturity level to navigate that in a way that it that is responsible and effective in the long term. And what I mean by that is some, you know, sometimes um workplace evangelism.

It is kind of like a bull in the china shop, you know, you just, you go into work and you start, you know, announcing who's going to hell and who's going to heaven and you need to repent and all of that and, uh, you know, sometimes a young zealous. A person who hasn't really been seasoned yet, uh, you know, they, they might do that. They get reprimanded, uh, maybe they get fired even, and they think, oh my gosh, I was persecuted for my faith, you know, but really they

were probably more just, uh, out of line. So I think to, to teach people what it is to really be a witness in the workplace and workplace discipleship. I think that's a great thing, and I'm, I'm glad you got to do that at the Lausanne, and um yeah, that's that's cool, yeah, Bobby.

Yeah, for sure. I think that we do spend a lot of time at work and so to be strategic, uh, would probably be in most places, not showing up at work and talking, you know, about your faith with everybody during the shift, but living out the gospel in your daily life and then connecting with people for coffee and lunch. Uh, you know, outside of work, and then asking them lots of questions about their life, including their beliefs, and then when those questions get turned around toward us, then

we're just answering questions. And so, hopefully, uh, that's the way we can be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. Yeah, cause, uh, one of the worst things is when a Christian employee work, like you said, Brian, they, they want to spend the whole time evangelizing, they're not working, they're being a bad witness in the workplace in the sense that they're on the clock, they're not doing their job, they're being disruptive and like you said, they call it persecution. Yeah.

Yeah, and, and, you know, sometimes it's just, it's, you could just chalk it up to, to immaturity. They, they, they're, they don't know any better. They're excited, you know, they've come to the Lord and they, they, you know, everybody's got to hear this. And, and that's good. So you don't want to quench that part of it, but it needs to be, um, it needs to be tuned, you know, it needs to be refined. It needs to be.

That that's why I think what Elaine's doing is so good because I'm sure there's that aspect of it where they're and and like I mentioned to, uh, you know, the, the workplace sometimes it's the, it's the long game with your colleagues that you're working with. Um, and they nothing might happen at all in the first year, even though you're a Christian, but a few years down the road, they see the consistency, they see the real. Genuine transformation in your life and then they start asking

you questions. So Bobby. Yeah, and there would have been a time for me where I would have thought, well, you, you have to share, you know, we're called to share the great commission, and we are called to share the great commission, uh, but I think that the way we can do that is by living and then being intentional to connect outside of work. From the standpoint, I think we still can fulfill that.

For example, Um, all I have to do is put my other hat on and think, OK, let's say I'm a CEO and I have Muslims that work for me, and they just want to spend their time trying to, you know, lead people to Allah or Mormonism. uh, well, it wouldn't take much for me to think, you know, uh, that's not what we're paying them for. Uh, I want them to do their work and now they're creating, you know, they're, they're using their time for this.

So I do think the Lord knows that we have a job to do and we're to work, and we can figure out creative ways to share it and be a good witness and not disrupt things. So I think even some of, on one level, you can almost understand how, you know, the workplace, they're not trying to get people to come and You know, do evangelism of any of their beliefs at work. They're trying to get people to get a paycheck and do their job. And if Muslims want to connect with

people outside of work, they're free to do the same thing. Uh, I, and that's the way I would look at it if I had a company and I hired people with different beliefs. You know, you talk to, let's say I'm Muslim, go, hey, you know what, the same policy, we just try to keep it fair for all. We encourage you guys to go out and build relationships outside of work and what

you guys talk about, you talk about. But we don't want to get in a situation where now it's just where, where we got a company where everybody's just trying to do evangelism of their different beliefs all the time. Very good, Elaine. So good to hear from you today on Pastor's Perspective. Elaine did remind us of that very special that's coming up. Let's talk about that. Lee. You almost forgot again, bro. For ministry according to Jesus. This is the CGN International

Ministry conference. It's happening the 22nd of June. Can you believe it? The 22nd of next week. Well, 3 weeks, 3 weeks, yeah, 22nd to the 25th, and this year we'll be holding the conference at Reliance Church out in Temecula. And so the theme is the way forward, how, you know, obviously how do we go forward in this time with the gospel. And we're gonna look at Jesus as our model. We're looking at those great, uh, chapters in, uh, the Gospel

of John chapters 13 to 17. So that's gonna be fantastic and we've got a great lineup of speakers and teachers and great times of worship, and we've got a great website that you can find out all of the details about, see the, uh, all the good looking speakers and the different workshops that are possible and so yeah, it's gonna be.

Good stuff, really looking forward to it and if you're in ministry, so so it's a ministry conference meaning that uh whatever area of ministry you're in maybe you're you're in children's ministry we're gonna have something very special for children's ministry or you're in youth ministry or you're in um. Some other, uh, type of ministry that you're leading in your church or you're wanting to get started in your church, there's gonna be plenty for everybody, so it's gonna be

a great time. And that website is conference. Calvary Chapel.com and go there, you can register, get all the details again, it's coming up the, uh, later this month, the June 22nd of June, yes, and, um, like I mentioned, we've got a lot of great speakers this year. Um, not the least of which is Alastair Beck, not the least of which is Alastair Begg. Yeah, sometimes people say, Well, I, I don't even know who that person is. Why are

they speaking? We'll come and find out. You don't know why they're speaking because God's given them a word, you know. That's why. Oh, but we missed Oliver, man, Oliver, we gotta talk about sharks, so you gotta call us back tomorrow. Can you do that? Uh, I don't know. I see, are we on? Well, you are now. We're running out of time. We're running out of time. Yeah, can you call back tomorrow, please? Well,

we'll get you on first. If you call in tomorrow, we'll open up the lines about 7 minutes before 3. I, I like to talk about sharks. I like sharks kind of and uh like the of them being pets. Oh man, we can't be out of time yet. We still have so many calls, but we'll be here again tomorrow between 3 and 4. So call us then. God bless you guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. We're gonna archive in just a few minutes for Brian Brogerson

and Bobby Conway. I'm Brian Perez. Thank you for listening to Pastor's perspective.