How to Accomplish Your Mission Using Data with Ginger Bandeen

How do you prioritize and organize projects in a way that moves away from being reactive into a proactive and even responsive approach? Well, my next guest, Ginger Band Dean says it's all about the data. After talking with her, I'm inclined to agree. Welcome to Passion and Profits Without Burnout. I'm your host, Jacob Moore. I'm a speaker, coach, childhood suicide loss survivor and filmmaker who left Hollywood to follow my heart of service.

I've helped tens of thousands of people find the balance in their life between passion and profits. On the show, I'm gonna teach you how to build a trauma responsive, resilient, and impactful community and organization. All without burning out. Let's get started. So during this episode, there are three major takeaways. The first thing that you're gonna learn today is that data doesn't have to be scary. It's not your enemy. In fact, it's on your side.

And she really digs deep into why that is and how clinicians and people who are in the service field really need to befriend data in order to do their job better. The second big takeaway is that not only people but data have biases, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Data and our, our relationship to it evolves over time and learning how to adjust and to grow with it is really important.

The third big takeaway is that data should drive your mission rather than your mission driving your data. There's an important distinction there that Ginger talks about, and it's really, I think, profound in an aha moment for me looking at the data to identify where are the gaps in service and how are marginalized people being overlooked and maybe not getting access to the services that we think they. It's all in the numbers and they don't lie.

Ginger Bandeen comes to us after 15 years working as a licensed clinical social worker. She founded mission driven data. And does that from the perspective of quality improvement, advocacy, behavioral health, and she's really passionate about making data accessible to people, especially clinicians and helping people who would say that they're not data people. Be excited and find the joy in it. I gotta say, I'm excited about data now, so please welcome my guest, Ginger Banding. Well, Ginger.

Hi. Oh, hi Jacob ! Thanks so much for being here. I appreciate you taking the time to share some knowledge with us today. Yeah. I'm so excited to be joining you. Thank you so much for the in. Of course, of course. So you are, I, I think I can say this. I, I feel like I know you well enough now to say that you are a data nerd, . Would you agree? Yeah. Yeah. It's taken me a long time to agree that that is one of my identities. I used to always say, I'm just a clinician. I don't really do data.

But now that I have a whole company that just focuses on data, I can't really get away with that anymore. Yeah, right on. I'm not a data nerd. And so for everyone listening today, I just want to share that I'm going to be learning right alongside you. Ginger is the expert here. and I use data because I need to because people tell me that that's what you're supposed to do.

If I could just work on like feelings and you know, ideas and that was enough, like all this qualitative stuff like I'd be golden, but you know. Well, the best data captures feeling and feelings and ideas, right? Like if you can capture your feelings and ideas with data, that's the best. That's the best kind of data. I like that. That is, that is a great segue into talking about like how you came today because you have, you have this background in like, as a clinician Yes.

Where you were working and, and serving people. Yes. And now you're, now you're doing data. Yes. How does that work? Yeah, so I, I started off doing direct clinical practice. I'm a licensed social worker. I still actually have my license as well. So I started off working with individuals affected by homelessness in New York City. My first job after grad school and then did some kind of administrative e jobs. And then also did intensive case management in a rural part of Oregon for a while.

And that was when I really got most familiar with community mental health, community services, that sort of delivery model. And I loved the work that I did. I love the people I got to work with, the, the individuals who were working alongside me to improve their lives. I really enjoyed working with With that population and back in those days, we were just doing most things on paper.

We weren't really using electronic health records or data, and I was sort of part of the groups originally at the agencies. I worked at a couple different agencies that went to that transition to electronic health records, and so I would. I sort of ended up on the committee to help them figure that out. Maybe because I seemed like someone who could understand systems a little bit and I and I maybe just volunteered by mistake.

And so anyway, I ended up learning about that process and then, When I moved into more quality improvement and compliance as my job I realized that those jobs were gonna require, looking at data was as we moved into electronic systems that quality and compliance were really about data. And so I just decided, well, I'm gonna have to learn this data stuff now. And so then I sort of picked everyone's brain I could think of... and you did, you did it! ...tried to learn it.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So, so that's interesting. You, you kind of, you know, found a way there naturally through the career, you know, that. You know, I'm, I'm guessing you got into, because, you know, something, something drove you there, Right? Some sort of heart of service brought you to that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I, one, I felt like if we don't, and I still feel this way, that if we don't have people who have that connection to the work we do, Also involved in the data side of things, we end up with data that doesn't really mean anything.

And so we really need people to bridge that gap between understanding the clinical side of things and the individuals we serve, and understanding people, and then also understanding the data or else we end up with this mismatch of like, Oh, we're tracking this data and it looks like we're doing bad at one thing, when really the people would say, We're doing good at that thing, or vice versa, or just focusing on things that aren't important. So, yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

And, and so enter mission driven data, right? Yeah, yeah. I started that company in, I started this company in 2019 and then started doing it full time in 2020, the year of the pandemic. And I've been doing that full time since then.

I named my company very specifically mission driven data because I think so often our data is driving our activity because we have to track certain things or we have to report certain things, and I really want us to move the mission in front of the data so that we're really thinking about like, What is our mission and how could the mission we have drive the data we're looking at? So. Sure.

Yeah. Let, let's dig into that a little bit because what does it look like if the data is driving the mission versus the mission driving the data? You know, I, I think a good example of that that happens all the time in agencies is a focus on what agencies often will call productivity. So it's like tracking how much time clinicians are spending, seeing clients, right? Which is a direct driver of revenue.

So it's important, like agencies need to stay afloat, they need to make their payroll, so revenue matters. But if you focus purely on productivity and you're not looking at anything else about that data, you end up doing some weird things that are not aligned with most agency's missions.

So like you might end up favoring clients who are more able to come in for appointments on a regular basis and it might end up like go sort of having the unintended consequence of clinicians being unwilling to take on clients who are maybe more complicated, who are gonna have trouble getting to their appointments, who are gonna have barriers to access, like we end up, like perpetuating things like health disparities you know or other things that make access

difficult for people because we're only incentivizing one aspect or one layer of that metric, that data is only looking, it's very one dimensional. And so I'm really into, if we're gonna look at that, how could we look at that and also look at things that help us avoid those unintended consequences. And really that's where I think about our mission. Like is our mission to provide the most number of services? No. Right. Like most agencies wouldn't say that.

They would say, Our mission is to provide the right amount of services to the people who need it the most. , Right? And so how can we put that piece into the data that we're looking at so that we're not just one dimensional, we're like looking at the whole picture. Yeah. So that really helps you to balance, you know, billable hours and the impact that they're providing. Yeah. And who's ac who's getting access to those hours would be the other way. Right.

There's sort of the, the entry point, like, are people getting into services? I mean, it's really common, I think, in community services for us to be really good at serving the clients that are in front of us, the folks that come in the door and make it there and are here to see us and to not always remember that there are may be people out there who need those services, who aren't getting through our front door because it's so much, I mean, we care.

We can only, you know, our hearts are big, but we can't, It's hard to be always thinking about all the people who can't even get in to get services. When you've got someone in front of you, you can help. So you help that person. But when we start thinking like agency wide and thinking about our community impact, thinking about like who's able to get in the door and not able to get in the door, who's getting dropped off and like falling through the cracks.

So like in some ways data, it, it it allows us to see past, like the thing that's right in front of us and see maybe the bigger picture of the need in our communities. Yeah. Yeah. So, Maybe that allows you to better serve marginalized communities and ensure true equity. Yeah. In services that are available to people. Right? Yeah. Or really think about like, are we doing something unintentionally that is excluding people from services?

good example I always think of is this agency where we had, I had a conversation with the team there and they were talking about whether to add a Spanish speaking phone message to their voicemail tree, you know? So you call in that there would be part of the voicemail message that you would get would be in Spanish. And they said, Well we never have anyone come in who speaks Spanish so we don't need a Spanish speaking voicemail tree.

And I was like, Oh, well are there no people in your community who speak Spanish? Cuz if there are, if there are any and you never have anyone come in, that might be the problem. And, you know, but it's that, you know, whether it's just not seeing, you know, the, the force through the trees or, you know, unconscious bias or, you know, whatever's driving that the data illuminates it,

Right! I mean, data can have bias as well, but I think that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it, right? Like we can have, we can accidentally incorporate our internal bias into our data as well, but it does give us this opportunity to see patterns that we would not necessarily notice because of our biases. Right. Like it can, it sort of, Yeah. Like if we're open to seeing those patterns, they can become visible to us, whereas we might not just notice them anecdotally.

Yeah. So you said data can be as well. Then how do we ensure that we're getting good data and that it's saying what we think it's saying? I think that is a very good question. I think how, What are some ways to think about that? , I think that we can get caught feeling like the data has to be perfect. The data doesn't have to be perfect in order to use it.

Mm. I think imperfect data gets us somewhere and then we, when we start looking at it, sometimes that leads us to do a better job of making cleaner data. So like so I'm kind of in favor of an iterative process. So, So basically start with what you've got. And if what you've got is a hundred blank answers to a question that, so you don't know what, you know, you've got, let's say 500 clients, you know what the answer is to this question for 400, a hundred or missing.

Start looking at that data and then people will start caring enough. People will notice it's being looked at, and that will drive them to maybe fill out that blank answer the next time they see that person. Mm-hmm. . But you know, biases are. I think one of the ways you can account for or sort of approach that is to have a diverse group of people who are looking at the data, people from different backgrounds with different perspectives.

And that those folks can then help bring out biases that are maybe being included that you can take out. So it's always good to have someone involved in looking at the data, who knows how that data's getting entered. Because they can say like, Oh, well I know why that always looks like that cuz we told them to always put that answer, you know, for example, So one way is to make that data accessible to a larger, more diverse group of people.

So I'm in favor of, you know, getting the data down to the folks who are, who are, you know, entering that data so they can have impact, you know, have input on how that data is. Understood. And then, you know, down the road I, we're still working with agencies to get there, I think. But I mean, I think having consumer groups looking at the data would be so exciting. You know, like what, what do people who access services want to know about the, the data? That'd be cool.

Yeah. That, you know, that reminds me of another conversation I was having with Ryan Goodrich, who's an HR specialist and has worked in the corporate HR space for many, many years. And he developed this really fantastic internship program and one of the core principles of it is designing an internship program that you would want to be a part of. Right.

Creating something that people actually, you know, like actually meets people's needs or that people are interested in, or, you know, speaks to who they are, their personality. And, you know, that reminds me like we can do that same thing with data, right? And. Ask the questions or make sure we're speaking to the groups that, you know, maybe get left out sometimes to ensure that we're accounting for different perspectives, different cultural, you know, beliefs, different outbreaks.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of the data tools we develop, we like to include various ways of looking at that data too, right? So some people are very visual, so they wanna see data in like a nice colors and pictures and charts. Mm. Some people really wanna see charts of numbers. So, you know, having tools that kind of meet different styles of thinking. And then, you know, we try, we try to use data tools that are really interactive.

I think that's the other thing that happens with data that sort of limits people's understanding and usability of that data is if it's very static. Yeah. Like they just get this piece of paper or essentially like a piece of paper. But it's nice if you can have data tools that let people like ask questions and answer some of their own questions. So if they're looking at the data and they can interact with that data.

For example, say you're looking at services and number of individuals open for services and you wanna look at different service types. But maybe you also add some demographic information there. So like age groups or gender or racial or ethnic background or zip code or things like that. Then the people who are looking at the data can dig around and kind of look for some patterns themselves.

And then when they find a pattern, they can also then look further and try to see like what's contributing to that pattern. So I love tools like that that really engage people in the process. I like that. Yeah, that's been a, you know, a challenge that we've had is, you know, we, we collected, we do surveys and evaluations, and then it, it goes into a spreadsheet and it lives on the Google Drive and that's where it dies.

You know, maybe we extract some numbers and shared in an annual report or, you know, something of that nature, but, you know, otherwise, The actual, like what you're describing of making it usable. Like, Like living data. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So interactive. So like in that example, if you had survey data sitting in a spreadsheet, maybe you pull it into a visualization tool.

So like a user could say like, Do people who answer this question this way, How does that break down with this other question? You know, like, if they answered this question this way, does that change how they would've answered this question? Or yeah. Or over time are we seeing changes in the scores? You know, I. You know, you can also make a piece of paper more dynamic by having it show change over time or comparison of two different things.

So even within a tool that maybe doesn't allow for some of that interactive stuff I was describing, you can make the data meaningful by having it compared to something over time. Something else, you know, thinking about data all by itself doesn't really mean as much. Yeah, yeah. So, What about, So say, you know, for an organization like mine, we're not a large organization. I don't have a ton of staff. We serve, you know, a, a pretty large population.

You know, we've had over 10,000 people go through our program. There are so many ideas, so many projects, so many things to organize.

Where do I start? How do I understand where, where to begin with all of this? What, what's, what's a tool or an approach that you use to start figuring that out with your clients? Well, you know, we've actually been thinking a lot lately about about a framework to help agencies because we work with a lot of agencies who are at that starting point. You know, they've, they've had some turnover. Gosh, a lot of agencies are having turnover right now.

And so there's somebody new who started there and they don't really understand anything that's going that's been done before. And they, or they have their own ideas about where they wanna go. And so they're sort of starting at the beginning. And so we've sort of adapted.

We've sort of taken a little bit from Maslow's hierarchy of needs to help agencies kind of think about like, you know, Maslow's hierarchy has like basic needs at the bottom, and then safety needs and then belonging, and then esteem, and then self actualization. So we, we've been taking that as sort of the beginning of thinking about this, but through that process we also learned that Maslow got a lot of his ideas. One could say maybe.

Borrowed without asking a lot of his ideas from the Blackfoot nation. And so there's some great information out there if your listeners are interested. Just Google Maslow and the Blackfoot Nation or I've got this book here by Sydney Stone Brown. It's all about transforming transformation beyond greed, native self actualization. Anyway, the whole idea is that Maslow kind of misunderstood or misrepresented the Blackfoot nation's ideas, and I'm probably not gonna do it perfectly either.

But the basic idea is, Self actualization is sort of the beginning of a process, and that next above that is community actualization, and above that is cultural perpetuity.

So this idea that as an agency, we're trying to kind of get our feet on the ground and figure out if we're okay and can we make payroll and all those basic needs to get to the point where, As an agency, we're sort of quote unquote, self-actualized would mean that like you're a high functioning agency, you've got all your ducks in a row, you're doing great. But that's really not where I hope agencies will stop.

I hope they will go past that to the point of like, are we having the impact on the community that we wanna have? Are we, you know, are we serving the mission that we wanna serve? And then above that, are we impacting the larger system, right? Like, are we changing the world? So like, I love that model. And so when we walk people through a process, To sort of prioritize.

We're always trying to help people think about what are your basic needs like, and you know, if you're running like a small business like you or I run, you know, you probably have a general picture of like where you're at financially. Although sometimes nonprofits have that is not under their control either. And so that's tricky, but helping you get those basic things figured out. But then also each time that you're doing these things for a basic need, how can you like.

Pull yourselves up that continuum too. So like, yeah, this is, you know, we're measuring our, let's say we're rev measuring our revenue, but let's, let's look at revenue a little more granular. Let's look at like by zip code, Like let's look at revenue by insurance type. Let's look at revenue by something else so that we're sort of also answering some of those higher level questions while we answer the basic question.

Because it's very easy to get stuck on those basic questions and never go above it, you know, cuz those questions are hard and we're always bombarded with all these external, you know, factors like pandemics. So how do you kind of like, keep your eye on the prize in a way, right? Like you're still thinking above this like, sort of Yeah. Bot not bottom, but very basic layer.

So yeah, I'm always thinking, so there's, we're always trying to think about how do we go up the pyramid, you know, go get higher, go more toward where we're aiming. Yeah. So there, there has to be almost this duality of the, the business base basics and doing the day to day with the eye on that mission, right? So what I would call a, a mission mindset, having that infused in every single decision yes. Then informs. Why are we doing this?

Why are we looking at the revenue and what can we do with that? Or how does this data or information impact what we're trying to accomplish? Yeah. I really, I, I like that. That's I think a great perspective for growth and, you know, infusing that in a way. Is really sustainable, right?

Because I think if you were to come to me and say, Hey Jake, I want to, you know, implement this, you know, this data policy that ensures X, Y, Z, and you know it's going to take this, this, and this to, to implement, to overhaul, right? I mean, that, that, it sounds daunting. It sounds like a, like a, a huge task. But if you say, Hey, you know, we're just gonna start here and just take a look at what is driving your business, right? What clients, what revenue is driving your business.

And while we do that, we're just gonna take a look at this, this little piece too. We, when we add on it's, it's very similar to what we do. In five bridges with, with wellness, you know, the, the, the crash diets don't work, but small changes over time add up to huge gains in the long run. Yeah. That's great. That's, that's an aha moment that I'm having right now, . Yeah. And the other way you can infuse, just to add more ahas, infuse more of those layers.

You know, one of those layers is belonging. And so I think sometimes just thinking about the process we use to roll out new products, new, new strategies, right? Like that can either contribute to more sense of belonging in our culture, of our agency, or it can cause disharmony or disconnection. So like that's the other piece that I think.

We talk a lot in the works that I do about process, which sounds boring, but it's actually like the meat, right? Like if, like, if you have this amazing data tool, but everyone's gonna hate it because it's used punitively and it's not, not seen as a, like a, a strategy that's designed to help people. , you're gonna lose everybody.

My favorite kind of data tools are the ones where and we have this happen sometimes where clinicians who are used to feeling like data's just this thing that comes after them and tells them they're doing their job wrong. Where instead we get to build these data tools that really help them do their job, you know, a job. And we've had folks come back and say, I feel like you invested in this thing for me.

Like something that the agency bought was for me, and it was this data tool that makes my life easier and I can now do my job better. Anyway, I, Those ones make me really happy. , And you would never think of that like, Oh, data as like a staff morale boost, but it, it totally can be. Yeah. Well, and I, and I think, you know, again, like you're, you're sort of turning it on its ear a little bit by saying like, no data can advocate for you. It doesn't have to be punitive.

It doesn't have to, you know, because that's the thing is I, I think we're scared of what we don't know. Yeah. Right. And so when I think. Data. I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's so much out there that can poke holes in what I'm doing. Right. And that's scary. Yeah. Because I know anecdotally I know, you know, the feedback that I'm getting from people, Hey, this works, this is great. Let's just leave it at that, can't we?

Cause cause if we start to dig too deep, then you know, and that, that speaks to insecurities, right? Insecurities in, in each of us as, you know, whether it's an entrepreneur or a program provider or you know, a clinician. Of course we all have to some degree imposter syndrome. Sure. Right? Yeah. But I like that data doesn't have to be scary. , right? Yeah. And I think that's that piece too, of bringing people into the conversation, right?

Because like when I was a clinician, I, I always felt like, gosh, I know, I could tell you how you'd know the folks I'm working with are doing better, but it's not the things we're currently measuring. , you know, like you'd know the folks I work with are doing better because they stated the same address for longer than they've ever stayed at the same. Like just change of address. Like, just look at how often their address changed and that means something.

Or you know, how often they had to get a new phone because they had something go wrong in their life, or Or do they have an emergency contact listed, which is sort of an indirect sign of like social connectivity, right? Like they came in, they didn't have anybody they really trusted in their life. They reconnected with their family and now they, now they listed someone on their record as someone they feel comfortable with us talking to, which is potentially like a sign of huge steps.

Yeah. In fact, that's one of the outcomes of our program, right? Is, is people getting a, you know, primary care physician or identifying who their, you know, their emergency contact is, their backup Yeah. Person is. That's, that's something that our program helps people do. But taking a look at that and saying, But what does that mean? What does. What does that outcome say about that person's stability?

You know, and it's, it's interesting cuz as you're saying that, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of it as, you know, running a business, I'm like, man, I hate when people change their email address or change their phone number. Cuz then I have to track 'em down and try to figure out how to get ahold of them and instead of looking at it, you know, that that's that eye on the mission of saying, okay. What does that mean? What does that mean?

If their number is changing, what does that mean if their emails bouncing back? And how can I use that information to, to bridge a gap? Right. I mean, we've been noticing how often there's just been so much turnover in the field, right? Because as part of our, you know, as part of one side of our business is we reach out to agencies and, you know, contact lists that were good two years ago are not good anymore. Everyone is.

Changed jobs or moved around or you know, and, and that just tells us something about where the field is at, you know, and what, and what people are actually dealing with out there. Which is a very, for a lot of folks, a very new thing they're doing. You know, cuz most people are in those positions now. It's like a brand new thing and they're learning a new system and Yeah, yeah. Which has its own challenges in a number of ways.

But I wanna speak, you know, a little bit about you as an individual, as an entrepreneur you know, with this, with this clinician background and, you know, coming into running your own business, how has that been for you? Finding the time, the ability to practice self care and balance your work and. The rest of your life?

That's a very good question. I, I would say that that has changed even as things have changed with the pandemic. So I think it was in some weird way easier to start a business in the pandemic year because everything was shut down anyway, so you didn't really need to have a ton of work life balance cuz mostly like life had shut down. I think I noticed that more as things started to open back up again and I realized like, Oh, I work all the time. What am I doing?

I need to have other things in my life. I will say. Throughout that whole time, I got in the habit of taking a walk every day, which I'm so grateful for. Like, that was my, my one thing with when the pandemic hit, I was like, Well, I'm gonna have to take a walk every day, cuz I can't just be sitting at my house all day. I already worked from home back then, and I already knew how isolating that can be. So I was like, well, I'm just gonna take a walk every day.

So that was, I still do that as much as I can. Because walking is just really good for my brain. And it's kind of funny, I, I don't really think of it as like an exercise thing. It's really just a, like, I need a break from screens where I'm just outside and in my thoughts and, you know, saying hi to my neighbors and checking out the gardens and all that stuff. So yeah. That is a big one.

And I'm, and I, you know, when I did eventually get Covid, because many of us have now, I was very glad that I'd had this daily practice of taking a walk. It helped me feel like, okay, well I know my, my lungs work okay. And I'll be able to tell if I feel really different and all those good things. So, yeah. That's great. But I would say that like it's I also rely on support from lots of, you know, other folks.

It's the one thing that the pandemic made was, made things more challenging was it's a little harder to meet people who do similar things. Like Jacob and I, you and I met at a conference in person again after like one of the first back in person conferences. And. Yeah, I mean, I'm looking forward to more of those kinds of things because I think it really helps to have, I'm, I'm an introvert, Well, I maybe, What's that ambivert where you kind of do... ambivert? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So but for whatever reason, relationships that are only over zoom are hard. I like to have met people in person. So I'm looking forward to more of that. Yeah. Yeah, I, I would agree. I'm, I'm very similar in that way. I, I have learned to be very much an extrovert and to be outgoing just by nature of what I do.

But if given the choice most times, like I'll stay home you know, but every time that I get out, like, you know, the conference where we met, I'm just like, Oh man, this is so great to be able to connect with actual human beings and, you know, have that I think however that looks for people, it's, it's important to have that connect. You know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, the internet and Zoom have given, have opened up the possibilities so much.

Like I love that I can work with an agency in Minnesota or Kansas or Pennsylvania, that I don't have to go there. I can just help them and like bring my expertise to them through the, the wonder of the internet. But also I like to meet people in person. So, you know, it's on my list now to kind of go around and meet all these people that I've really only talked to over Zoom. So I'm doing Pennsylvania in the fall and I gotta get Minnesota in the fall when it's not freezing.

It's gorgeous in the summer. Yeah. But yeah, I'll try to do it in a non winter month. Good call. Good call. Yeah. Yeah. So the last thing that I want to ask you about is the, are some of your outcomes.

So we have, we share some clients in Virginia and. I'm just curious, you know, what, what sort of results have you seen when you've been working with companies and organizations for a couple of years? How are you able to help implement these changes that you suggest, and, you know, what, what are the results that are coming out of it?

You know, I would say because it is kind of a journey for agencies that for a lot of the folks that we've worked with now for a while, what the main change you kind of start to see is almost in the culture of the organization. So you start to see, you know, a lot of folks we work with will start, like I said, with those like kind of foundational layer of reports. But we're also kind of, you know, sprinkling in some stuff about their mission. And then you start seeing things happen.

Like a clinical director comes and says, Well, I really like how this report works. I'd love to have a report that looked at this. Or you'd have like a CFO who says, We're doing all these power BI things, could the financial data also be? And, you know, and, and so I think.

Or we've had really cool things happen where agencies identify or have a hunch about something in their data that is something really relevant to their mission, like maybe a health disparity or maybe they're starting to wonder if a particular program is in the right geographic location. And then they'll come to us and we'll pull some data and they can use that to actually make a better informed decision about what they wanna do going forward.

An agency was able to use their data to see that there was a racial disparity and the access to a particular evidence based practice that they really believed in strongly and really. Couldn't imagine that there could be a disparity there, but they were able to look at the data and they were like, Oh yeah, that's, that's real. There's there, there it is. And so then use that to implement some training and then check to see if that helps. Right?

So often we do training in our field, but there's no way to actually measure if the training helped , you know yeah, I think about the big move toward trauma informed care. Like, I love trauma informed care. I'm a huge advocate of it. I always, I mean, there's a, another person I know on the internet that does this conversation around trauma informed data, which I think is a great way to think about it too.

But could we kind of look at some metrics around like, okay, we, we did all this push toward trauma informed care. Are we seeing that as a, as an agency, You know, folks who are coming in with trauma are having better success, are getting access to services more, Are we providing more specialized services to those folks? Are we like, what's happening as a result of that training?

You know, I mean, I'm into the feelings, which, but like, and I'm not trying to say data in place of feelings, but like how could we incorporate the two together? I love that. Yeah. And, and what you're describing is making that shift from being trauma informed to being trauma responsive. And as an organization and as a community looking at, you know, how can we predict and anticipate the challenges that people may face around trauma that they've experienced and then get into true. Prevention.

Right. Which, which is fantastic. And I think using data as a tool for that of course it, it makes sense, but it, it, it seems so tangible and so accessible when, when you share it that way. Yeah. I love that. Ah, thanks. Yeah. I get excited. So I, I think truly you, you are a, a data nerd I am. Yes. That is the definition. Getting excited by it. Yes. Is there anything else that you wanna share with our listeners? About what you do or something cool that you discovered?

I think, I think the only other thing I would mention is, and I don't know if this is something your listeners would be interested in, but we do host a free online community for other data nerds or data adjacent nerds where we host like guest speakers and we do free trainings. We're doing a whole training, this actually about, we're doing trainings around this framework I was talking to you about.

And so if you're, You know, if one of your listeners is interested in that, they, they're welcome to look up at our website, mission driven data.com and check out our community cuz it's you know, our, our long term vision really is, I guess the mission for my mission, like our company's mission is to to change the conversations that we're having about data, to become more focused on data that is meaningful and to really define metrics that capture the value of community service.

Hey, before you go, if you enjoyed that conversation with Ginger, I'd really appreciate you throwing some numbers my way. Could you please take 30 seconds to just forward this episode along to someone in your sphere who might find it useful? A coworker, your boss, a, a colleague who might want to learn about data. I'd appreciate it very much. We'll see you next time and until, Be well, Thanks so much for listening to Passion and Profits Without Burnout.

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