Create a Grief-Informed Workplace with Meghan Jarvis

A toxic work environment is what's getting blamed for the great resignation that's happening with the American workforce right now. But my next guess, Megan Jarvis, a clinical psychologist, says that behaviorally, this more resembles. The process of grieving and the great resignation or quiet quitting that's happening can actually be solved through grief inform leadership. Welcome to Passion and Profits Without Burnout. I'm your host, Jacob Moore.

I'm a speaker, coach, childhood suicide loss survivor and filmmaker who left Hollywood to follow my heart of service. I've helped tens of thousands of people find the balance in their life between passion and profits. On the show, I'm gonna teach you how to build a trauma responsive, resilient, and impactful community and organization, all without burning out. Let's get started. Here's what you'll learn on today's episode. First, how does grief show up in the workplace? What does it look like?

How does it feel for staff and for the ethos of the workplace environment? Second, what happens when we don't address grief in the workplace? What are the results? Or on the flip side of that, what does a workspace feel like when we address grief in a healthy way? And finally, Meghan's going to share one actionable thing that you can do right now today to make your workplace more grief informed and bonus, better prepare you for the inevitable grief that you'll face at some point in your life.

Meghan Jarvis is a psychotherapist, a writer, a speaker, and the host of the podcast: grief is my side hustle. Please welcome Meghan to the show. Meghan, you are the Workplace Grief Guru, if, if I had to, to give you a title, uh, I, I have seen you pop up more and more recently related to, you know, not, not just being grief informed, but actually doing something about it being responsive to grief.

You have talked about this idea of being able to solve quite quitting through creating this grief informed leadership ethos. How do we, how do we do that? How do we start that process? It seems like a big nebulous thing. Well, first of all, thank you. Being called a guru in anything is, uh, totally intimidating. But you're right that the soapbox that I tend to stand on lately has to do with where we are missing identifying grief and loss. And I think it's super tricky.

Um, I think that we as a culture don't do a good job, even when grief and loss is obvious and in front of us, that our, you know, our friend's father died. It's like a, it's like a Dick and Jane sentence. It's completely simple and we don't know how to show up for it. We don't know how to identify the emotions, connect to it, connected to it. We just, You know, we haven't really been given the opportunity to learn about it.

What's really tricky about being at the place where we are in the pandemic is that companies are trying their hardest to get back, that's the word. Get back to work and back to the office and back. When you overlay the idea that the pandemic is driving a tremendous amount of loss, and I don't just mean the 9.1 million people who are grieving the loss of a human life from the pandemic, I also mean.

You know, the manager who spent five years culling his favorite employees into his department and had a corner office. And, you know, loved the team that he was working with. So the folks that I am talking to generally think I'm asking them a question about like, who died in your office? Right. And so what I know in their inability to answer the question is they're not even identifying the amount of loss that exists.

Mm. And you know, grief is the natural physical reaction to loss and grief is this whole constellation of emotions. Right. One of which is anger and frustration. Yeah. And disconnection and isolation. And so at the sort of, you know, about a year ago we had all these articles coming out about the great resignation.

Why did we have 47 million people leave the workforce? And that hasn't stopped. You know, the numbers are still pretty high. Yeah. And now we're kind of on the other side of that, right? These managers, their, their CEOs are coming to them like, Why is everybody leaving? And they literally don't know the answer. But we have these studies that have come up where people are saying, Well, it's toxic work.

Toxic workplace environment as if we left like some vegetables on the counter and they went rotten. And, and you know, now we have a toxic workplace environment. Now we're calling it quiet, quitting. So first we were blaming the companies. Now we're sort of blaming these employees. And what we're saying is like, well, why, Why aren't people motivated?

Mm. And what I can tell you from a grief and loss perspective is this is exactly the trajectory that grief and loss follows when it goes unsupported. First, we have to be able to name it, right? We have to say, this is, you are experiencing loss. Grief is associated with loss. Then we have to ask the questions, How is your grief showing up? And the way it's showing up in the workplace is a lot of helplessness. Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think that when we liken it to.

Grief and, and I, and I think similarly trauma, um, it, it, it shows up in, in a, in the same way for a lot of people. And we see, well, what's the result of those unaddressed feelings that unaddressed it? It's, it's overwhelmed, right? It's, it's, yeah. Stress to the point of burnout out. Of course people are leaving. Of course they're ghosting because they just can't even, and well- -they don't, they don't have a choice.

This is, this is the challenge, is that when you're talking about something, you know, if there's grief inside the family, the stakes are different than if there's grief inside the workplace. And again, if you, if you posit as I do that people don't even really understand that they're experiencing grief, all they know is they don't like the way this feels. They have managers and bosses who are saying, We're getting back to work.

But any griever will tell you there's no back when there's been an untenable loss or you know, a big trauma as the pandemic. We're not going back anywhere. Yep. And so people are feeling pulled, they're feeling pulled back to their old work hours. They're feeling pulled back to their old quarterly statements. They're feeling pulled. And really what we need to be looking at is saying, Hey, this is a totally different game. We have some of the same players.

Yeah. But people are bringing in this emotional experience in a way that they had not before. And we have to make room for that. I mean, it doesn't work. It doesn't work as an individual. It won't work as a company, not to make room for what the emotional experience is and the way it shows up. So let me give you an example. Like this is a, an amalgam of, of an example that comes up all the time. Someone has a tragic event. Their father dies.

They have a health issue, their child has a health issue. There's something that happens and they need some flexibility in their job. And they like their boss, and their boss likes them. And so their boss says, Of course, with so much intention we will do anything you need. And so that employee takes the time off. And they feel supported and loved and eventually come back to work. Now, the standard in grief and loss work in inside companies is like three to five days off.

That's the standard, right? Really lovely employees. Employers will give you, you know, a week. But when you talk to Grievers, how long do you experience your grief? I mean, that number is insulting. It's nowhere near what we need. While they're off in their job, know, the, the employer is just loving on them, sending flowers, sending their kid an iPad, telling the company we really have to support him because he's, you know, having a hard time.

And then he comes back to his job where all the emails that have been compiling are sitting in the inbox and all the vendors, because you know, his boss didn't wanna break his privacy. His vendors don't know that he's been out. So he has 16,000 emails in his inbox and all the same deadlines that he's ever had before. And, you know, the, the story becomes, they leave that job. Because there's tension now the boss doesn't really understand what he didn't do enough of.

Cuz he sent an iPad and he sent, you know, he did the things. Yeah. And the employee doesn't really understand that what he's resenting, his boss, his colleagues, his whatever for, is that his grief is not being validated Yeah. In the way that it needs to be validated. Well, and there wasn't a true accommodation. Right. For for that situation.

And I think we often find that, you know, whether it's mental health, um, or, or otherwise, When it is something intangible, when it's not a physical, you know, broken arm or covid or something like that, those accommodations aren't made in the same way When someone's outta the office because of a physical illness, we say, Oh, well they're not here.

So we need to forward those emails and we may need to make sure that someone's handling those accounts and that it's known that they're not available. We don't, we don't think about it that way. When it's something, you know, less tangible and the fact that it's not tangible is part of it.

I think also, you know, it's got this like taboo discomfort, awkwardness, so you know, again, if your family has a baby, six months later, eight months later, 10 months later, people are gonna be asking you, how is that? Now there is an argument to be made. I'm a mother of three, that having a baby is a trauma. I mean, it is a lot to a family to take in something that needs you constantly. It's a happy trauma, but it's still a really significant change and there is loss involved.

There's also gifts involved. , but people don't shy away from that kind of a change in your life. Yeah. And the changes that are happening here, we have to kind of like acknowledge the loss in order to move forward. And what's happening is companies are like, Come on, come on, move forward. And when they're, when their employees are not able to do that,

because actually human beings can't, we can't just skip over the emotional experience of something. Now we're looking at those employees and we're saying like, Well, they're not really a team player. And they're not really motivated. And I think it's, I think it's worth saying, you know, there is a study from 2012 that in 2012 estimated that 75 billion is lost in the industry because of grief and loss, which if we extrapolate that out to today's numbers, that's 119 billion.

So it's not as though this isn't a problem that's been around, it's just a problem that right now the numbers are really stunningly overwhelming and, and I don't wanna just say, Oh my gosh, this is all hard. Because the hope behind it is, you know, it's not difficult. Grief and loss is actually not a difficult thing to show up for. When you talk to people who are grieving, just someone saying, I was thinking of you the other day. Do you, you know, I was, Is Halloween a hard time for you?

I, you know what I, I was remembering this time last year and I was just thinking, I can't believe it's been a full year that, that the smallest ways of acknowledging, saying the name of the person who died, acknowledging the loss, like if it's your office that you lost. Which again, maybe people have feelings about that not being, We shouldn't be grieving it, but I can't tell you the number of times I have heard that people are grieving their actual office space, right?

Someone's saying, God, don't you miss that crazy orange carpet? That alone makes someone feel seen and known and gives them room to say out loud what their actual internal experience is, and they're less isolated and they're more connected. It's not, it doesn't take

. Yeah. You, and you and I have previously talked about this idea that, you know, when someone Yeah, experiences a loss, often they're just, they're left alone and there's this, you know, sort of awkward, like, I don't know what to do, or I don't, I don't want to retraumatize them, or I, I don't want to like, bring it up for them. And in fact, uh, most often the opposite is true and the opposite is necessary., Yeah, a hundred percent.

So that when you talk to Grievers, what is the thing that is the most painful? They're gonna tell you the people who didn't show up and the way that they felt isolated. And so from a primary Griever's point of view, you know, there's a process that grief sort of stake it takes, It has nothing to do with the five stages of grief, but it does have to do with your brain taking in

the world as different than it was you know, before you, before this terrible thing happened, and you are the only person that that is happening to, or you and your cluster of people are the only, So everyone else is going to work with a Starbucks cup in their hand. And you are like, I'm telling you, the world is not tilting on its access. And so there's- -And even if a group of people go through the same thing, they still experience it as individuals, through their own lens.

A collective trauma means we are all going through the same event, but our experience in that trauma will always be individual. The example I often use is that I'm one of six. Both of my parents have died, but I lost my mother all by myself. My relationship that I lost with her is not the relationship that my brother lost. And so while we can talk about that and share it, my, my experience needs to be validated by me and the people around me.

And his experience needs to be validated by the people around him and in his own way, and what I think is challenging, particularly when people are at work, is that, you know, we, we have different relationships and so we don't wanna invade somebody's privacy and we don't want to. Um, push into a story. You know, I only know Bob a little bit, but he's a, you know, he works in the cubicle next to me. So it's both kind of like knowing how to, how to show up for the story. How do I show up for it?

And, and also sort of taking cues from someone else. That sense of isolation is the thing that we are working against. And we don't want the person ever to feel like we don't care because the isolation, you know, we have all this data about alone and lonely and what it Dr you know, the poor mental health outcomes and health outcomes in general, that that drives for people. In grief and loss, that is one of the predicted you know, mental states, Is that it?

Even when people feel deeply connected, they're gonna have moments where they feel really, really disconnected because they're disconnected from the life they used to live. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I've been saying that a a lot lately. You know, we, like, there is no going back and we have to take the time to grieve what was in order to truly move forward. The challenge is that life is happening all at the same time, right? So work continues.

Companies hopefully continue other people's lives continue, and yet as individuals or as you know, the leader of someone who, who are managing, they're experiencing this grief real time. So, How do we reconcile that? How do we continue to march forward while simultaneously honoring and giving the, the space and the attention necessary to that grief process? Hm. That's such a good question. And again, I want my answer to be hopeful because I think it is hopeful.

I don't actually think the answer to the question is that hard. You know, probably 10 years ago, the thing that I got called, I live in Washington, DC you know, I do. I work with people who are writing all the government language and working with all the contractors here. What I used to get called about most often was like the thing that we describe as work-life balance, right?

So I don't think work life balance, What I always started talking about was like if you're, if you are having trouble with work-life balance, you're having, you are actually having a boundary problem. You're having a problem saying no to things, right? And every time you don't say no to something, you, you miss the opportunity to say yes to something.

And so I probably did that tap dance... I don't know, 150 times at different companies because they were aware that their employees were having a struggle between balancing the time at work and the time away from work, and it was showing up as anxiety. So you know that that was as much as they knew. Now when I was done talking to them, they had a whole different understanding of what that balance that they wanted to create. Different vocabulary, different words, different.

You know, what I feel right now about the workplace is a lot of compassion. Most people are being led by folks who went to business school. And in business school they didn't have like a whole bunch of classes about like your emotions about things. They have some management tools which include cute emotions around things like maybe they learned the enneagram, but grief and loss goes beyond that.

And, and if I could just say it sort of plainly, what we're asking companies to do is to ask. Name the experience of loss as already present inside their office. To not be afraid to do that because it's already there. People are grieving right to to name it and then ask about it. And it doesn't mean you have to sit and have a, you know, a group therapy session. You can have a journaling exercise. You can bring someone in to lead a journaling exercise where, you know what?

I want you guys to write for three minutes about all the things that have significantly changed. That's usually how I start. What things feel like they have been a significant change. Because anytime you have changed, you have lost, and then I lead them a little bit. Oh well, the emotional experience around that change, was it positive or negative for you? Put a plus mark next to the positive and negative. Do you have more positive or.

How many of those changes feel like they're connected to your workplace environment? I'm just, there's a word called Alexa imia, which basically means you don't know how you feel. Lots of people don't know how they feel cuz they weren't taught about feeling words. Many more people don't know how they feel cuz they haven't slowed down to feel the feelings. Right.

So this is just a, we're just talking about like once a quarter exercise where we're gonna slow down and feel the feelings and then we're gonna know. we're gonna be able to say, Gosh, you know what? I really miss the secretary who used to be in our office who had to move to go be with her mother. I'm missing her face. Yeah. I miss her voice. You're not gonna be the only one who has that experience.

And the minute this is, this is the truth of trauma therapy, the minute someone begins to tear up, I know I'm on the truth for them. Right? So it's like you just press a little bit more on the truth to help the feelings. And that's really all we're doing in office environments is saying, I know you guys wanna move ahead. I totally understand that, but you're gonna be dragging people by the hair if you don't let them spend a moment honoring all the good that once was. That has changed.

And yeah, delineating, which pieces of that feel. And, and the way that, the way that hard shows up for a lot of people is anger and frustration. You know, we bring in this part that resists, and so suddenly this boss that I would've sworn fidelity to, to the rest for the rest of my life hasn't let me acknowledge my, And I suddenly, I'm talking about him like he's kind of a jerk. And people are like, God, you used to love Kevin. It's like, wow. You know, Kevin has changed.

You know, Kevin hasn't, probably, hasn't changed either. He's just having a hard time too. He doesn't know how to do this. Yeah. Doesn't have the skill sets, you know, so, So what I'm really hearing is, is we need to shine a light on this and it, it can be as simple as just bringing it into, you know, into a space where we all acknowledge it and. And that is a start. That is the beginning of understanding how to, how to start to address grief in the workplace.

And so, so let's, um, I, I was gonna ask you what happens if we don't consider loss in the workplace? But I, I wanna flip that. I wanna, Yeah. I wanna ask what happens in the workplace when we start to address grief, when we start to shine that light? What do you see? How do you see that show up? Well, I'll answer both questions anytime you don't address an emotional experience that someone is exhibiting for you. They pull away.

You experience disconnection, and when people don't understand what the dis disconnection is, they will tell a story and that story will become the truth. Kevin is an asshole, and that is not necessarily the truth, but that's the best I can do.

When we flip it over and we say, What are the benefits of being able to shine the light, as you described. You know, when you are able to, to have a small group of people tell the truth, what you hear is a me too experience. And what you see is a loosening of people. Te I mean, I have chills just thinking about it. And when I say This is what you see, I'm, I'm, I'm being honest. This is what you see and feel.

And I can give you, I'll give you an example that I've spoken about on my podcast, but I worked with a company that, um, their, their. Their main job is hotels. And I asked them, you know, they had me come in because they lost a really prominent, um, member of their community and they wanted to know how can we support our community. And so I asked, What do you already do?

And you know, the person in charge said with a lot of pride, Well, you know, we send gift cards, we send food, we send flowers. You know, we really show. And someone at the other end of the table said, Well, you know, she sort of coughed. And I was like, What? And she said, Well, you know, we send the same basket of flowers that we send when they sign their contracts with the company.

So they send the exact same like, you know, f t d bouquet of roses when your mother dies, as when you have signed with the company. And the, the look on the face of the person in charge was like, No, we don't. And she said, No, we do. That is what we do. Ah, and so quickly the amount of like sort of pain in the room about just not ever sitting and, and discussing. Right. You know, so we spent some moments like, What do you think that must feel like? You know, why? Why? Why is this so hard?

And people told their own stories. They told their own stories of someone accidentally harming them when they meant to show up. Well, and I'm not kidding, Jacob, like within 30 minutes, this company, because someone said, You know what, The best thing someone did for me when I was having a funeral is they set up hotel rooms. This was a hotel. The hotel company was like, We wanna do that.

Anytime there's a funeral in this company, we're gonna, we're gonna support the out of town members of the family. And I'm not exaggerating when I say there was some tears about that. There were so much relief it didn't even take, These are smart people in a room. It didn't take them that much time. That's what happens.

And that group, which was a group of 12, I'm telling you, they created some intimacy in that, You know, all that stuff that you do with companies where they make you build a boat out of like team building, do you know, toilet roller ladders? They want you to bond their, the bonding in this moment was really deep and really quick. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And, and what I'm hearing is also not in a way that is. It has to sacrifice boundaries in the workplace. And, and that's really wonderful.

So, Megan, I, I know we can talk more and more about this. Um, there's, there's so much depth and breadth to this, this topic. We're just scratching the surface. And obviously, you know, if an organizational leader really wants to, uh, wants to make a change in this area, bringing on someone, an expert like you who can really take them through the process of, you know, developing the language and the infrastructure necessary to, to do this.

Um, you know, that that's, that's the level that, that someone needs to work on. But what's one thing that an organizational leader can do right now today? Yeah. To start to shift to being more grief informed and, and, How, how do they do that without having to, you know, go up the ladder, the chain of approval, you know, to to, to get this done? What's just one simple thing that they can do right now today? Okay. Such a, that's such an excellent question.

And again, you know, you don't have to feel like you need to bring an expert in to help. And I just wanna say this phrase, sort of co-create an idea. Of how we're gonna address grief and loss in the, that you know, that that may not be your first step.

Would I say to anybody who asks that question, whether they're coming from the perspective of being in a company environment or just, you know, in their own home, is pick up a memoir that you know is about grief and loss because that author is going to have spent a lot of time very specifically cultivating language that is tr a true story. But in a way that you're gonna identify with. That's the whole point of a memoir. Listen to a podcast.

There are extraordinary podcasts out there about grief and loss.

I have one called, Grief is My Side Hustle. Another one that I love is called Grief Out Loud. Um, that's another great one. There are some from the UK that are really extraordinary. Just put grief and it's easy. Pop it in your ear while you're doing the dishes and you will hear personal stories of loss. And also my favorite and the one that I do really encourage people. To think about is do a little inventory about who do you know has experienced loss, and invite them into a conversation.

Now, I wouldn't recommend you pick somebody who is, you know, only a few weeks into their loss because they're gonna be dysregulated. Sure. And they won't be able to give you sort of wisdom and perspective, but somebody who's maybe two or three years into a loss and ask them the questions that come from a curious mind. What did someone do that was helpful for. How could your work have supported you better? What was the thing that was the hardest? What was the thing that was the most painful?

And just, yeah, take in that information. Those conversations are not hard to have. And when we talk about being grief informed, those are the building blocks to being grief informed. I love that. And what I'm really hearing, what I'm really hearing you say, Megan, is we need to stop being afraid of grief. Stop being afraid. Ask the questions and to have a relationship with grief by reading a memoir, listening to a podcast, asking someone how they're doing, speaking someone's name.

All of these things like we have to get over our uncomfortability with it. In order to truly shine a light on it, it's also self-serving because literally the only thing that we will all be one day in our lives is a griever. Yes. I mean, it is the thing that ultimately stitches us together as human beings and underside, you know, underneath the concept of grief is love. So, It doesn't serve us to stay in the discomfort.

And there are lots of things out there that we, every single day of our lives, Ooh, that's awkward. Oh, that's uncomfortable. And then we push on through it. Yep. So as an ethos, you know? Yeah. We don't, Being afraid of it is not serving anybody. And ultimately, you know, if you're not someone who's currently grieving or have the experience with grief, it benefits you. You will be taking some of this information in just for yourself.

Nevermind, you know, your colleagues or your children, but for you. Yeah, absolutely. And Megan, you have a, a gift for our listeners today. Um, these, uh, grief mates. Um, can you tell us a little bit about that and how that process will help someone get more comfortable with grief? Yeah. So for people who are actively grieving or are grief adjacent, so there's a, there's a story that is close to them and, and that they're having their own feelings about.

So maybe the event didn't happen to you, but it happened to your wife. That I have a, a grief writing workshop that is, um, pretty much It's me with a, a little video comes out once a week and an opportunity to write with a writing prompt. . What grief mates really offers is the experience of sort of writing from the wound. You are in the pain and we give you time to pause with with prompts. Some of the prompts are, you know, describe a holiday that you spent together.

Describe a trip that you went on. What was the funeral like? What do you wish was different? You know, they go right into the meat of it and we don't ask you to share that writing. It can be, you can write the same word, 700. But within the prompt writing is also writing for proc for products. So we, some of it is process and some of it really is to share.

And if you think about that as an arc, we're trying to take the words that are too hard to even bear to look at in the beginning and turn them into, A few sentences that we can use to share when people are asking about our experience. So when my mother first died, I couldn't, I literally couldn't even say the words. My mother died and now I have a really comfortable series of sentences that I can say about, you know, how she died and what that meant to me without it making me break into tears.

So I use journaling as a therapeutic process and also, You know, like a yoga practice, something that we do regularly and can come to regularly to create that space that we need for grief. That's beautiful. And, and, and I like how this, this brings this concept full circle. You know, we've talked about the responsibility of the workplace and of leaders to create this grief inform environment. There's also a responsibility that a griever has to.

Go through and do the work of processing so that they can speak and communicate what they're experiencing with others. And when we have both of those elements together, that's a really beautiful environment. That's exactly right. And again, you know, If my, if my hopes and dreams come alive, the notion, you know, that a, that a teenager who's going through puberty has this awkward phase where they don't really know what's going on, but other people can look at them and say, Keep going.

It's gonna get better. It's okay. I know the acne's not great, but you know, Everybody has to go through it. That, that there will be a way to approach grief and loss in the same way, which is, I'm not afraid of you. You don't need to be afraid of this.

People inherently and instinctively can figure out how to do it, and you can communicate as you're doing it, and I can communicate with you by asking the questions that both of those pieces will not be too much because, you know, we don't wanna hurt grievers while they're going through the process, but we also don't wanna leave them alone. And it's really hard.

It's really tricky when what it feels like is your grief is being pathologized and that people are looking at you like you're somehow kind of failing at life because you're not doing that American dream thing. You're doing that American bummer thing. But it is a part of life. It's a part of life for everyone, and many, many people will tell.

That the arc, the long arc of their grief did not turn out to be a bummer that they learned something about themselves, that they created things that weren't otherwise there. So the more communication, the more hope we're gonna end up discovering in the process, I think. Yeah, and I can attest to that. Yeah, me too. Well, Megan, Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Uh, I really, truly appreciate it and, uh, and these ideas are fantastic.

We will link in the show notes where people can find more about you. The, uh, podcast Grief is my side hustle and, uh, grief mates as well. Megan Jarvis, thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Jacob. It's always so lovely to talk to.

You know the biggest lesson that I learned today from Megan is that grief is universal and we all have a role to play, whether we're an employer and we are the ones responsible for our staff in creating an environment that is grief informed and really truly makes accommodations for the grief that someone faces. Or we're a griever and we need to learn how to process our grief and to be able to communicate it in a way that's helpful for others in the workspace.

In any case, we all have a part to play, and the biggest thing that we can do to make this process easier is to just talk about it, to shine a light on it and use this universal experience. To grow closer as a community and as a staff. Thank you for tuning in. I appreciate your time. If you had any tangible takeaways from this episode, I would really appreciate your feedback. Please take a screenshot, share it on your social feed, or send me a message and let me know what you thought of the.

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