Where do you go when they want to build a mine in your backyard and both Republicans and Democrats support it, Well, you go to court, of course. On today's podcast, we talk about the proposed lithium mind that everyone seems to support. That is, everyone except the folks who live nearby. Hello, and welcome back once again to Parts per Billion, the
environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. So, of the two major political tribes in our country, the Democratic Party is the one that's generally seen as more environmentally minded, and that means Democrats often clash with heavily polluting industries think chemicals, manufacturing, power generation, and most certainly mining. So then why are Democrats from the State House all the way up to the White House so bullish on
a proposed mega mine in remote northern Nevada. That's because it's a lithium mine, and lithium is well different, and we'll get to that in a second. The company Lithium America's wants to build a one billion dollar open pit mine near an area called Backer Pass, and the Biden administration is backing it one but an unusual coalition of environmentalist tribes and ranchers are taking the administration to court
to try to block construction of this mine. Bloomberg Law reporter Daniel Moore went out to Thacker Pass to find more about what's going on and to speak to the people on the ground who would be most affected. And I started off my discussion with Daniel by asking him, well, where exactly is Backer Pass? Yeah, this is the far northern reaches of Nevada, near the border of Oregon. It is far away from populated areas, um from cities. It's about an hour north of the nearest town, win Amacca.
It's very, very dry. It's high desert scrub land with lots of lots of sage brush. It's a lot of cattle ranches, alfalfa fields, um and and it's a pretty desolate area to drive through. Just to give the listeners a sense of how isolated this is, I wanna hear how you actually got there, Like where did you fly into and then where did you you know, I'm assuming you had to fly into somewhere and then rent a car.
How did you do it? Yeah? I was actually at a conference beforehand, So I was in Colorado at an energy conference and I drove from Colorado through Nevada and it was about a twelve hour drive total. Uh. And it's in part on the loneliest Road in America, which is called that because there's not a whole lot there. Uh. Nevada has hundreds of ghost towns within the state, and so you know, it's a it's a pretty desolate long drive, but strikingly beautiful given all the mountain ranges and valleys
that you go through. One thing you just said that caught my ear was ghost towns. I'm assuming those are towns that were set up to do, you know, mining of silver and other minerals back in in the day. However, now we're talking about mining of a different element, and that would be lithium. Let's get into lithium it's self. It went up fo last year's insane. What's going on here?
Why is lithium so valuable? Yeah, Lithium is the lightest metal in the world and the universe on the periodic table, and as such, it's a it's a key ingredient in batteries for consumer electronics and crucially electric vehicles, and so because it's very light, it can be used in these batteries that can be transportable. And what's happened over the last few years is you have electric vehicle manufacturers demanding
lithium to use in batteries to make electric vehicles. Um At the same time as as manufacturers are driving that demand, you have policymakers saying, we need to find a secure supply of this stuff. We don't want to import it from other countries. We want to develop supplies of lithium and other critical minerals to like graphite and cobalt and other other minerals that go into batteries. We want to
develop these supplies in our own country. And so those two things kind of converge to create this huge demand for lithium globally but also in the US. So let's specifically talk about this proposed mind near Thacker Pass in northern Davata where you visited. How much lithium are the companies saying they think they can get there, because I get the sense it's not just like a little bit,
it's a lot of lithium. Yeah, that deposit is the largest known lithium deposit in the US, and Lithium America's at its mind, which is just a small part of the deposit says it can produce eighty thousand tons a year at full capacity for forty one years. Now listeners can do the math on that um. But what that means is that annual amount is roughly what was produced across the world in so it's it's a lot of lithium, simply put. Uh. And there's a lot of lithium in
deposit even beyond the Lothian America's mine. But now let's get into the environmental issues here. And one of the things I really loved about your story is that it seems like everyone is of two minds here. You know, it seems like everyone can really, you know, see the
benefits but also see the downsides. For example, environmentalists, obviously you'd think that they would be on the one hand, in favor of this, because we need lithium to make electric batteries, uh, and that can help decarbonize our economy. But also this is a huge mind and mining is one of the most polluting industries out there. Can you give me a sense of where environmentalists are coming down
on this? Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, this is a classic example of national and global views on climate change and the local impacts that building this clean energy supply chain will cause. UM. So locally, people some people really support this mind UM support this project. They support the jobs and that can mac benefit that will come UM and certainly environmental groups see benefit from mining lithium
and producing these batteries as a key climate policy. People near the mind they'll have these concerns about well, mining is destructed to the land. I mean, first of all, it's scooping up earth and it's destroying, you know, impacting certain habitats. Uh. There's a concern, a big concern about water about UM, what happens if the water gets contaminated. There's not a whole lot of water in this area. UM, A lot of it is already allocated for agriculture and
is drinking water. There's a concern about the water table possibly dropping as a result of this and and killing off some wild rye that cattle depend on. And then there's a concern about just the whole processing side of it. Bringing in sulfur, which is key to their process of
actually extracting the lithium. They bring in sulfur, they truck it in, They produce sulfuric acid and use that acid to separate the lethium from clay um and all of this, you know, all of the effect that would have on air, on water, on just the environment is a big concern for people who um. Again, this is pretty sparsely populated. It's a beautiful mountain pass people. A lot of people don't want to see that um turn into a mine.
And specifically I want to focus on cattle because one of the plaintiffs who is suing to block this mind is a guy by the name of Edward Bartel. He is a rancher in this area that you spoke to. And another one of his co plaintiffs is a group called Great Basin Resource Watch, which is an environmentalist group. So we have ranchers and environmentalists on the same side of a lawsuit. That's pretty unusual. Tell me about Bartel, who, who is he and what are his arguments? Why? Why
is he involved in the suit? Yeah? So every Bartel has been a cattle rancher, rancher in that area, uh since two thousand eight, and he's been his family has been ranching for generations in that in that part of the country, and he's concerned about impacts the water and air in that area. And specifically with the water. I mean, he's very familiar with what it takes to raise cattle.
He has about five dred cows um that he puts up on blm land above the Mind and then and then he brings them down onto his ranch, which is a little bit below the Mind, but very close to it. And he's concerned about um the water quality and the water table potentially dropping as the Mind withdraws water, which again is already allocated the minus purchased water rights from
a neighboring ranch. But he's still concerned that even though they're using the same amount of water that's what the company says they're going to do, that that could affect his water supply, which then affects the rye that just naturally grows on his property, which then could affect his cattle that that feed us. So it's a very um he see it as a threat. Yeah, you spoke to Bartel and one of his neighbors, Gen williams Uh, and he talked about, you know what happens if the projections
on the water here are wrong. Let's hear from him. And so if we get this wrong, if we have a four hundred foot tall mountain a waste here, and that starts leaching into the groundwater. What do you do at that point? It's not like you can instantly move that mountain a waste And everybody says, oh, this is wonderful. We're going to give three hundred jobs. What about our three hundred jobs and our private property and all the farmers and their families and the employees that benefit out here.
I bet we got more than three hundred, all right. And then let's get to another stakeholder here, which are the nearby tribal lands. And this is where things get really ambiguous. Um, can you talk about the tribes and their interests here and who among them are opposing this mine? Sure? So? About fifty miles north of the proposed mind the for the Fort McDermott tribe um is a relatively small reservation.
It's about five people who lived there. Um. Their main concern is, um that they weren't consulted about this mind quite frankly. I mean that the Trump administration had approved it in January one, just days before leaving office, and the Biden administration has defended the project and backed backed up that approval. But they're concerned about again impacts the water air. They see this um Mountain Pass where the
mind would go as sacred to their ancestors. They also are concerned about this massacre that took place in eighteen sixty five that they say happened on the mountain Pass or near the mountain Pass, and and they see a long history of mining in this area, contaminate, eating the water and the land, and they they don't believe the promises that the lithium company UM has made about being
a good steward of the land. Yeah, and one of the people that you spoke with is Deronda Hinckley, who's twenty four year old tribal activist, and you know, speaking of water, she's very, very concerned about how this will impact water. Let's hear from her. But yeah, the environmental impacts of water, we're really concerning, just because you know, this is a high desert ecosystem. If you look at it, there's not much water already. And if there is water,
it's mostly groundwater. And we all know the story of groundwater. It's gonna get polluted, you know, it gets in those aquifers, that's it. You could like really damage it for that years and years and years and so that was like a big one. And like in our ceremonies and stuff, we pray to water, we pray with water, and so like that was one of my core like values. Just the overlap between the cultural and environmental I mean absolutely, yeah.
I tell people that your environmental concerns are cultural concern us. Like there is a like, I don't see the line. There are also people in the you know, tribal administration who are concerned about what happens if the mind doesn't get built. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about that. You spoke with one person, Maxine red Star, the cheerwoman of the four McDermott put shone tribal council. Um, she's really worried about, you know, the other side of
this coin. What's what's what are her concerns? Yeah, Maxine came into office, by the way, just a few weeks before this mine was approved and said she found out about it a few weeks after was approved from an angry tribal member and claims that she didn't really fully understand the scope of the project. But you know, she said she she took um a collaborative approach with the Bureau of Land management and wanted to sit down with
officials and understand it. And she said she gained assurances that this mine would be well regulated, would not impact the environment unlike previous mining in the area. And to her, you know, she wants to create economic opportunity for the next generation of tribal members who live on that reservation. There's not a whole lot around aside from a few
rest stops, gas stations. There's a small casino nearby, and there's just you know, she says that she's gotten calls from people who live across the country, members who had to leave the reservation who now want to come back and work at work at this mine, and she thinks that it can be done in a sustainable way and with about three hundred jobs full time jobs and a
thousand construction jobs that the company has promised. You know, she sees this as an opportunity that could work for people who live in that area and don't you know, really have a comparable job that they can go take. Yeah, and you spoke with Maxine, of course, because this is Nevada. You spoke with her in a casino and here's her talking about, you know, the tension between the environment and the economy. You know that one of my my councilman
mentioned one time. You know, we're all focused on the histories, were all focused on right now, what about these young kids? What about the people that are in school? We have not heard what they have to say? Are yet our young people are young adults, our youth, We're not We're not hearing them. Those are our future. What are we
going to leave them? Are we going to leave them with this desolate land and do nothing with that and fight you know this this corporate giant, or are gonna work with that corporation and provide benefits to our young people? That's going to carry us into the future, because, like I said, this is where it's at. Okay, Well, there's one other stakeholder here who we haven't talked about yet, and that's Lithium America's, which is the company that wants
to build this mine. Um, what do they say? I get the sense that their their argument, in their line of thinking is just because promises were broken in the past doesn't mean the promises will be broken in the future. Is that a fair characterization of their you know their line? Yeah, that's right. I mean, they don't shy away from talking about the concerns that people have locally, and they've in fact, they've said they've engaged with all the tribes in the area.
They've engaged with the ranching community, the people who live on either side of this mountain pass, and they've been engaging for years and years. They see this as a mind that can be operated sustainably, as kind of a new breed of mine. UM. They mind for for about four decades and then they restore the land to what it was UM. And of course they also portray this as as meeting the call of the Biden administration of of demand for this lithium which has increased in value.
And they've been they've been working on this for more than ten years UM in different you know, they've been doing exploration, they've been developing it. They've been developing this um extraction process UM. They've opened a new laboratory and reno where they can bring people in and show them how it's done. And so, you know, they would say that they've they've developed this safe process UM and they've
put a lot of time and investment into it. They point to people in the community who really support this. I mean there are a lot of supporters of this mind and see this as you know, necessary for local economic development and also you know, the global fight against
climate change. Yeah, and it's worth noting here that it does seem like the environmentalists and the other people who opposing this mind from a political standpoint are kind of out on their own because Republicans, of course, are very you know, in favor of this. But so we're Democrats, not just in the Biden administration, but you talked about how the Democratic governor of Nevada is also very much in favor of building this mind. Both parties seem to
be united on this. Oh that's right. Yeah, this is securing battery minerals is a bipartisan goal in Washington, and that goes down to Nevada. And Nevada is a very mining friendly state too. I mean, I think the Silver State, the Silver state exactly. I mean, there's there's a long history there of mining and permitting mining and regulating it. Um. And yeah, I think I think that the Nevada officials and local officials in the state see this as being
another boom akin to gold and silver in the past. Okay, finally, let's talk about the suit Um, you know, and what the status is there. It sounds like if and when a judge makes a ruling on this case, mining could start very very soon after that, maybe almost immediately. Um, what's the status of the lawsuit? And you know, what are the potential outcomes here? Yeah, so briefing in the suit has finished and both parties, all parties are are waiting for arguments to be scheduled, So there could be
some arguments coming up. Um, the judge could rule at any time. And whenever the judge rules, if they rule against Bartel and the tribes and the environmental groups, um, mining yeah, could begin pretty immediately and Lithium America's has said they fully intend to start construction, you know, whenever this legal issue is resolved, and if the judge extends the case in any way, I mean, the legal fight could continue. Um, it's been going on for more than
eighteen months right now. M Bartel filed is lasted in February, so it's been a lengthy legal process and it would be even longer until the judge makes a ruling either way. All right. Well, that was Daniel Moore speaking with us about his recent voyage to northern Nevada, Daniel, Thank you so much for talking. Yeah, thanks for having me. And that's it for today's episode of Parts per Billion. If you want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter.
We used the handle at environment just that at environment. I'm at David B. Schultz if you want to chat with me. Today's episode of Parts for billions produced by myself, David Schultz. Parts per Billion was created by Jessica Combs and Rachel Daglan. Is edited by Zach Shrwood and Chuck McCutcheon. Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you next time. Have you ever thought to yourself, how is that legal? Why is that legal?
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