What's the Science of Perfect Timing?

like it might help us have a good show. I'm gonna draw the line of head slapping, but that is pretty interesting. I'm not a dent sure what the head slapping thing is, even though I watched a lot of basketball. But there's actually another basketball fact that I think is

even more interesting. After looking at the results of tens of thousands of NBA and college games, these researchers found that teams trailing by a single point at halftime are actually more likely to win than the team's winning by a point. In fact, they found it was statistically equivalent to a two point halftime lead. That's crazy. So why is that? Well, it's all about amy. But the science of perfect timing is pretty fascinating and help us make

sense of it. We've got Daniel Pink, the brilliant author of a brand new book called Win, The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Time, and he's here to explain it all. So let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to part time genius Samuel Pearson, And as always, I'm joined by my good friend Man Guesh Ticketer and the man on the other side of the soundproof glass playing Cindylopper's Time after Time very softly in our headphones. That's our

friend and producer, Tristan McNeil. I didn't realize what it was until he slowly turned it off. Rascal. Anyway, Mango, are you ready to talk about perfect timing? I am, you know, I think what's so striking and reading Daniel's book was just how little science we've put behind our decisions on when to do certain things. Like we constantly analyze how to do things, how to take a test, how to organize a productive meeting, how to be healthier, But when it comes to the when decisions, we really

leave that to a gut feeling. So I'm super excited to talk to Daniel Pink about his research because this book is really fascinating. I'm with you on that, all right, Well, let's not hold off any longer. Today we're joined by the author of several books, including the New York Times bestsellers, Drive to Sell as Human and A Whole New Mind. But his newest book that just came out yesterday actually is called When the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. Daniel Pink.

Welcome to Part Time Genius. Thanks great to be here. Now, Daniel, you open the book with a story about a study out of Cornell. There these two sociologists. They're doing a big data analysis of five hundred million tweets, you know, along with the other research that have helped find these patterns of the day. So can you talk a little bit about that and how the heck do you do an analysis of five hundred million tweets? Well, fortunately I

didn't do this analysis. Um, these guys that Cornell did it. And it's actually one of the interesting things about how research has done these days and how we can use giant amounts of data to find hidden insights. So essentially what they did was this, so tweets remember our actual text, right, so their words or letters, characters, and um, there is a piece of software called LUKE. That's the acronym l

I w C for the Linguistic Inventory Word count. This software allows us to measure what essentially the emotional content of the work. So if you if I look at a word like like bummed out and say, okay, that's someone who is a little bit low emotion, excited high emotion. And so what you can do is that instead of going through these things one by one. This is the great thing about computers is ability to crunch these numbers.

They throw all of these five million tweets into this program and their question is does people's mood as reflected by these tweets change over the course of a day. And the answer was heck yeah, and how so. Well, what they found was this really intriguing pattern. There was a peak, a trough, and a recovery. And again it's obviously controlled for time zone. Uh. Early in the day where people had a more positive mood. That positive mood was fairly steady until about noon. Then in the early

to mid afternoon it began to dip. It dipped considerably over the afternoon and then rose again in the late afternoon early evening. And what they found were essentially three stages, a peak, a trough, and a recovery that as we had positive mood in the morning, pretty strong dive in mood in the early to mid afternoon, and then recovery later in the day. It's very interesting. Yeah. So so

obviously you know we're not all the same. And we've talked a little bit about like circadian rhythms and in our episode on sleep awhile back, but you talk about chronotypes and how do you use them to perform Can you tell us exactly what a chronotype is and how people identify themselves as whatever. So there's a whole field is study called chronobiology and chrono for time biology for study of life, and it looks at exactly as you say, are daily rhythms. What it finds is that people have

certain type, certain propensities. Some of us rise early, fall asleep earlier, some of us rise late, fall asleep late. Some people are larks morning people, some people are owls evening people. But the truth is that most of us are kind of in between what I like to call third birds. And if you're a lark or a third bird, you generally go through the day in that in the order that I just mentioned, a peak, a trough, a

recovery that you have. In the mornings, you're generally at your best, both in terms of mood and in terms of vigilance. In the early afternoons there's a pretty significant deterioration and then some kind of recovery later in the day for the but the one and five of us were very strong owls nighttime types. These are people who go to sleep just naturally very late and wake up late, people for whom eight o'clock staff meetings are just a

form of torture um those folks. And to go in more or less the reverse order recovery truck peak, and that would probably be you, mango, Yeah, yeah, what time do you Well, here's a here's the test. Let's we can test you right now. All right, we'll do we'll do the basically back in the envelope chronotype test here. So, so let's say it's a day where you don't have to wake up to an alarm clock, which for many people as a weekend. Okay, so what time would you

usually go to sleep? Yeah, I mean, I think kids have thrown everything off, but I think probably between three and four. Oh, my lord, four am. Yeah, oh, I don't even have to do the rest of this time. And what time would you usually wake up? I don't know, ten, I'd say ten. Okay. So so what we would do in this case was we would find your your midpoint

of sleep. So if you if so your midpoint of sleep, if you can go to sleep at three and wake up at and your midpoint of sleep, would you, guys be six thirty am, which would make you a pretty strong owl. Strong about one out of five people are pretty strong owls um and I I like the designation of a strong owl. Yea's a very strong owl. Yeah or uh so, yeah, that's that's that's that's pretty alley.

How are you You don't be asking, I'm oh man, oh man, you're a serious owl then, yeah, yeah, well congratulations. He's been that way for a long time. In college, he was paired up with another owl, and so we all had to be aware that they would just wake up at about what about two in the afternoon and

talk about what they were going to get for breakfast. Well, what's interesting is that is that that that's one reason I asked to your age is that most of us go through a period between about age fourteen and twenty four when we become the owliest in our life. Um. And that has to do with hormones and whatever. So there's a pretty soon that they can shift, beginning basically post puberty, where people shift literally in some cases to

three hours later into the day. Um. But then as time goes on, they go back to their earlier So to what you have is you have like little kids is I think magnis is discovered are pretty large, pretty long, um. And we basically are are strong larks earlier in our life and then later in life. The older you get,

the larker you become in general. Well, you talk about this a little bit in the book when you're talking about those teenage years, and we've heard this before, the advocacy for a later start time, you know, in the American Academy of Pediatrics actually issuing a policy statement urging schools to start I think it was no no earlier than eight thirty, and yet fewer than one in five schools actually follow this, as you indicated the book. Well, why do you think that is? Because they don't take

these time and questions seriously. They don't take questions of when seriously these schools. And I don't mean to pick on schools because I think it's true for all our institutions. We take very seriously, Okay, what are we gonna do? Alright, So they take curriculum very seriously. What are we gonna do, How are we gonna do it, How are we going to teach it? We have professional development days to improve our pedagogy. How are we going to do it? Who

are we gonna do it with? They take hiring pretty seriously. Um, But then we take these questions of when, and we say, ah, that doesn't really matter. That's like we we we take these questions of when and when we sit them at the kids table rather than at the groun ups table. And that's a huge mistake. These questions of when, these questions of timing, as you're saying, with school star times,

have a material effect on people's well being. School star times alone, Um, there is evidence that these early star times, again for people who are very ali who which teenagers tend to be starting school at seven thirty in the

morning is ridiculous. They're barely even awake. And consequence of that is dire the You have higher rates of depression, higher rates of OBEs, the increased incidents of auto accidents, higher dropout rates, reduced performance on santidized tests, and schools that have done something about this, and again we're not we're not. We're not talking about like a Magnat schedule where you start school at three in the afternoon. We're talking about like starting it at like nine in the

morning rather than seven thirty in the morning. Schools that have made those that that modest step that basically followed the recommendations of the American Accountmy of Pediatrics have seen low and behold higher test scores, lower dropout rate. If you just think about the workplace, time of day explains about twenty of the variance in our performance on cognitive tasks.

So you know, so it doesn't mean the timing is everything, but it means it's a freaking big thing, right right right, Well, we'll speaking of that material difference as you mentioned, you know, not just affecting teenagers but adults as well. You you talk about this Bermuda triangle of our days in the afternoons, and and we we all know that there tends to be that afternoon. We've all experienced that, especially after man guess and I have been downstairs eating ramen for lunch

and afternoon slump. But actually hearing from you and hearing the hard evidence of this, whether it's with standardized test or even results from juries, can you talk a little bit about that impact. It's huge and it's terrifying. There's research from Denmark showing the kids score systematically lower if they take standardized tests in the afternoon versus they take them in the morning. Okay, so just think about that in terms of the extent to which standardized tests affect

the kid's fate, where they affect education policy. Again, time of day is having this massive effect, but it's invisible to us. If you look at something like you make an interesting point about about juries or criminal justice system, there's some really good experimental evidence showing that if you have two defendants. That's a famous experiment, one one named uh. Some participants have a defendant name Robert Garner, some have

one name ROBERTA. Garcia. And if you have the same set of facts juries that deliberate in the morning, treat those defendants the same juries that have the same set of facts and deliberate in the afternoon during this trough period. Guess what they are more likely to convict Garcia and exonerate Garner on the same set of facts. Right, but but but wait, there's more, Because now we can go

into healthcare. Doctors and nurses are far less likely to wash their hands in the afternoons and in the mornings if you look at if you look at things like anesthesia, you're three times more likely to have an anesthesia error in an afternoon procedure than in the morning procedure. Uh. Yeah, the whole thing is terrifying and so over. Even even if we look at things like auto accidents, there's some good research out of the UK. You know, when do

auto accidents peak? If you're just for how many cars are on the road? Big surprise, they peeked between like four and six am. Okay, because it's the middle of the night and it's really dark. But the second most common time is between two and four pm. It's perfectly light outside. Yeah. We don't take these kinds of time and day effects nearly seriously enough, and they have a big, big effect on literally in some cases of life and death. So these are so scary statistics. Now, we have several

more questions for you. But before we get to those, let's take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. We're talking to Daniel Pink, the author of When The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Finding. Daniel, I, I know we talked about the fact that I'm not a morning person, but I was curious about morning exercise because that's something you talk about in your book. Can you tell about the benefits of doing it then versus afternoon and what

it means for your body. Yeah, this is something that I was really interested in because I was trying to figure it out for myself. Um and so um. It's pretty easy to figure out whether you should exercise in the morning or the afternoon. It all depends on what your goals are. So if you're also to lose weight, exercise in the morning, you're gonna burn up more calories than typically. If you actually in the morning, you're gonna get a mood boost for a bigger period of the day.

Exercise later in the day you might sleep through some of that mood boost. There's some good evidence showing that morning exercise makes us slightly more likely to stick to the routine and to stopster and levels actually peak in the morning. If you're doing some strength based training, mornings can be good for that. On the other hand, afternoon

late afternoon is good for other types of things. So one of the big things that affects our physiology over the course of the day is a change in body temperature, believe it or not. And when our body temperature tends to rise to its highest point in the late afternoon in early evening UM, that makes our muscles warmer and so we're more likely to avoid injury. So if you're prone to injury, you're concerned about injury, afternoon exercise is better.

There's some really intriguing evidence showing that you might actually perform at a higher level during afternoon and early evening activity UM because mine function is the highest, your strength is higher, your reaction time is higher. There's some very intriguing evidence about athletic records, particularly in speed events, disproportionately being broken at between about four and seven local time.

Really fascinating, and it's all about our you know, basically about a bye temperature is also again this is related up and this has actually ended up sealing the deal for me is that because we're doing a little bit better, we're you know, our our lung function is a little bit higher muscles are warmer, we're not risking exercise, we're

not risking injury as much. That people tend to um enjoy the workouts a little bit more in the afternoon, even if they're doing the exact same thing in the morning, they feel a little less taxing UM. And so for me, I am an uh an afternoon early evening exerciser, and I think it's for that last reason. When I when I go do exercise in the morning, I hate it. It feels like it feels like torture. When I do it in the afternoon, I actually enjoyed a little bit more.

And so if I were trying to lose a lot of weight, I might change I might change things. But I exercise just so I don't go crazy. And so afternoon, um, afternoon works for me. And I think it's because of just that my body has warmed up. I'm performing a little bit of higher level and it's just it's less unpleasant than it is in the mornings. Yeah. Well, back to the idea of productivity and things that we can

do to to be more productive. You talk about, you know, the importance of or the value of of napping, can you, And I think we we've we've heard that before, but can you talk a little bit about, you know, what the ideal nap is and what we're looking for in that and and trying to be more productive. Yeah, the ideal nap is a less shorter than I ever realized I was. You know, I'm not. I haven't been a big napper. And the reason is that when I woke up from a nap, I felt, I felt terrible. I

felt you know, groggy and cobwebs in my head. Um. And what I discovered essentially is that I was doing it wrong. That the ideal nap is is very very short maybe you know, usually no more than twenty minutes or so. Um. And what happens if we knap longer than that is that we begin to accumulate what's called sleep inertia. That's that boggy, groggy feeling that we have, and it takes us some time to dig out of

that to get the benefits of the nap. So you basically start with a deficit and then have to climb out of the deficit. If you have a nap of twenty minutes or so, you get a lot of the benefit without any of the deficit. And so the super short naps literally between ten and twenty minutes, seemed to be the maximum bank for the buck when it comes to napping, which I I love because I'm from a sistic culture. Yeah, but you know, there's something to be

said for you know. What's what's interesting is that in the the blaze of westernization and American style capitalism, we've obliterated cs IS, when in fact, there's actually some pretty good scientific evidence for restoring some kind of modern the Yes, I mean, I'm not talking about taking three hours um for lunch every single day, but basically taking breaks and

pauses much more seriously than we take them. Right now. Well, uh, one of the things, because I'm so focused on mornings now, I want to ask about is breakfast and how important it really is and where meals play a role in in uh, you know, having the most productive days. Um, is breakfast is important? I think the answer from the research is a clear and conclusive maybe, um, some of the some of the and this has to do with some of the methodologies, which are observational studies rather than

randomized control experiences. So you know, these observational studies found that people who breakfast are healthy but we don't know whether breakfast is causing their healthiness. It could just be the healthy people like the breakfast, um, people who are already healthy, or eating breakfast and has no causal effect, etcetera, etcetera. Some of these pro breakfast studies are actually funded by cereal companies, so that should make us raise our eyebrows

a little bit. In terms of time of day and eating, there's some very interesting research, pretty new stuff right now on what's called time restricted feeding. The showing that you could you might be able to get a certain greater weight loss if you restrict you're eating to a certain ten or twelve hour period um, and that weight gain could be a factor in weight gain, could be eating too late in the day. Um, that's it's it's as

early stages now. It's pretty intriguing. I actually looked at some of the research on lunch and it turns out that lunch is a pretty powerful Again here I'm not talking about physiology, I'm talking about psychology. The lunch ends up being a pretty powerful restorative for us, much more than I would have expected. There's a very strong argument

in the research for taking a lunch break. Uh, you know, not just having a tune of salad sandwich dripping onto your computer while you're trying to answer you know, but but but but you know, being intentional and taking a lunch break. It doesn't have to be massive, you know, taking half an hour and going outside and you know, if the weather is right, you know, eating a sandwich on a bench and not working. Um, the evidence is showing that that is where stories are. Energy can boost

our mood, can actually improve our productivity and creativity. And the larger point here is that this is something where I've changed my own behavior, is that just in general, we haven't taken breaks seriously enough. Um. We have thought of breaks as you know, soft or deviations from performance. I am as guilty as anybody about this. I I've never been a big break taker. I've always thought it was better just to power through. And it's actually not,

um that that breaks all. We have to start thinking of breaks as not a deviation from performance, but actually part of performance and recognize that part of being a professional means taking a break every once in a while. So when I was reading the book, one thing I wasn't clear about, and I was just curious, from your own perspective, where does social media plan to that, Like when you're on a break and eating a sandwich on a you know, in nature at a park. How how

does like looking at your phone influence that? The real answers. It depends, So it depends on what you're looking at in your phone. In general, though, what the research shows is that the best breaks you're fully detached, particularly from work. So social media is a big part of your work. If you're looking at things, oh, what are they saying about my product or um, you know what's in the news, and that it's going to affect my business, then it's

actually not that great of an idea. There's a lot to be said for full detachment as breaks rather than semi detachment. So so for me, for instance, I've changed my ways on this is that when I have lunch, I will literally not bring my phone, um, you know, just you know, I don't take a long lunch break at all, maybe five minutes, but I will leave my phone in my office and so so I don't risk

being semi detached. Um. On the other hand, believe it or not, and it's gonna sound crazy, but um, if you're using social media and as a form of detachment, that is, you're looking at hilarious of videos or something like that, I have nothing to do with your work, then it's not the worst thing in the world to have that kind of a break. There's actually some evidence, I mean, believe it or not, there's some evidence that people who take breaks watching it's gonna sound like it's

made up, It's totally not made up. People who take breaks and watch dog videos during their breaks end up coming back from the breaks a little bit more restored. So that's probably not true for people who run kennels. So it really depends on, you know, how you're using social media. I find it, well, social media is very complicated, and I'm squarely in the middle. I don't consider it, you know, the devil's technology in order. I consider it the you know, the panacea for all that ails the world.

It's obviously somewhere in the middle of that. What I have found personally, and again this is just a complete personal experience and observation, not based on any research or anything like that. I find that Twitter raises my stress level, uh increases my cortisol level because on Twitter it seems like everybody's always complaining about something or becoming alarmed by something or yelling at somebody. So for that I find it's not that for me personally, it's not that useful. Yeah,

that makes a lot of sense. I know. We have a few other big questions for you, Daniel. Before we get to those, let's take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. We're talking to Daniel Pink, the author of When the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing and Daniel, before you came on, Mango and I were actually talking about some of the studies that were done around the game of basketball and that fact about being behind at the half is actually more advantageous than being ahead by

a point. And so well, why is this and and and and what does this mean for us in other areas of our lives. Yeah, I love that piece of research. And again it's another um one of those insights that scholars have been able to uncover using big data. That particular piece of research, I think it was somewhere around eighteen thousand NBA games. Just to take a step back, I mean, one of the things it's important to understand is how bizarre this finding is, because in general, a

team that's ahead at halftime has a better chance of winning. Now, that shouldn't be a shocker, okay, because they have more points, right, you know, they already have more points, right, and the game's half over all, right, and they have a lead, so you know, mathematically it's not that complicated. The other thing is is that their halftime lead could be a proxy that they hate they have better players, or they

have a better coach or something like that. What's interesting is is, you, guys, point out is the exception to that, which is the teams that are down by one are more likely to win? Why is that? And it goes to some of the science of midpoints. Um. Midpoints have two effects on our behavior. They either bring us down or they fire us up. And one of the cases where midpoints fire us up is that if we're slightly behind. There's something about being slightly behind at the midpoint that

is galvanizing. Now because if you're if you're way ahead at the midpoint, you can become complacent. If you're way behind, you say okay, it's over, it's you know, you give up. But both in terms of the research on basketball games and also some experimental research, which is a better way to get at causation is showing that when people feel like they're slightly behind at the midpoint, they work a little harder. And one of the things that you can do,

and you know you can at some level. You can trick yourself, you can trick your team, or it can be the actual honest account of what's going on. I do this all the time, is like, Okay, I'm at the midpoint of something, I'm slightly find I gotta get my button gear. Um. And so, if you're managing a project and you're hit the midpoint, team, hey we're doing pretty well, but we're a little bit behind. That's really galvanizing.

That's that's pretty fascinating. So and so is that represented in why people do so many marathons at like twenty nine or thirty nine in those nine years. That's a different phenomenon that has to do with endings. You know, as you point out people who run merit first time marathons, their age is disproportionately ends and nine, say, forty nine year olds or three times more likely to run a marath first time marathon than fifty year olds. That's crazy.

Twenty nine year olds or twice as likely to run a first time marathon is twenty eight year olds or thirty year olds a right, it makes no sense physiologically. What what's happening is that when we get to the end of something, endings also have a galonizing effect. So when we can see the end, we sometimes kick a little harder. And that's particularly true when it comes to

things that are sources of meaning. Um So people have bucket lists, and people have things they want to accomplish in their lives, and people have these these purely arbitrary markers of decades. They say, Oh, my gosh, time is moving fast. I gotta get going. I'm gonna to run a marathon. That's pretty amazing. And that's why you're holding off MAGO. You're thirty eight now and next year is you're big here. So ten years from now, start training,

start training. So I know. One thing I was curious about is, uh, what's the best time to deliver bad news? Do you have any thoughts on that The best time to deliver bad news? Well, I think the best the best time, in the best way. The best time to deliver bad news in general is when the recipient's mood

is higher that you know, more positive than negative. And what we know in general for most people is that their moods are slightly better in the mornings and in the late afternoons in early evenings than in the afternoon. So that is I think that's generally a good In general, it's a good time to do it. In terms of the classic formulation that everybody on the planet has used, I've got some good news and some bad news, there is a very clear answer. If you have good news

and bad news to deliver, always give the bad news first. Um. And the reason for that is that people has to do with the science of endings. People prefer endings that elevate. They prefer rising sequences to declining sequences, and so um um. And what's interesting about that. And this is again another area where I've changed my own behavior. I used to be Mr, Okay, got good news and bad news. Let me give you the good news first, you know, try

to lay down that cushion. And but when you ask people what do you want to hear first, the good news or bad news? Four to five people say I want the bad news first, and so you better off to give you the bad news first, uh, and ending with the good news. Um. Again, it has to do with our preferences about endings that elevate rising sequences over declining sequences. Well, and I like that you offer a few tips on this, whether it's you know, how to

end vacations or how to end our work days. You know, as you mentioned, people like an elevated ending. Can you can you talk a little bit about some of these suggestions that you've given in the book. I think the most important thing is to be intentional about endings and to recognize that they're the endings disproportionately affect how people

remember entire experiences. So if you look at something like customer transactions, um, I think that businesses should be much more uh, much more attention to how a purchase experience ends, um um. So you can see this anecdotally and Yelp reviews of restaurants. If you if you actually read the help reviews of restaurants, you find that a disproportionate number of these reviews talk about how the meal ended. You know, they screw up the check and they were jerks about it.

They gave me a deserted and expect and that affects their home. In terms of vacations, pick one of the what do you think is gonna be one of the best moments and put it towards the end. The end of an experience disproportionately affects our memory of it. I've got some great examples from teachers around the country about how teachers have marked the end of a semester or

the end of a year. One one of my favorites is this fellow who's an economics teacher at a high school outside of Chicago, and what he does is that at the end of people senior years, he has them write a letter to themselves that he mails to them five years later. It's an awesome thing. There's another college teacher who at the end of a semester, she takes her students out to a local pub and they make

toasts to each other. And so just being intentional about endings and giving them a little bit of lift can dramatically shape how people remember an entire year, long, semester, long experience. That's really good, and you talk a little bit about how we might end our work days. I thought there were some great suggestions there as well. Sure, I mean, you know, I again, I think it's a lot. I think it's a lot about being intentional about how

we end our work day. So one of the things that you can do at the one of the things you can do at the very end of your work day, and something that I do is that I actually mark my progress. I actually use an app called I'd done this that sends me an email at the end of every day. It says what you get done today, and I make sure the ritualize, Okay, here's what I got done today, So I have a sense of progress, so

I mark that progress. Um. There's some great research from Teresa Amabulae at Harvard Business School about how making progress is the single largest day to day motivator on the job. So that's one of the things that I myself do. You can also do things like there's something about a

sense of completion. So one of the things I try to do I don't always do a good job of this is layout what I'm gonna do the following day, so I have a sense of completion and I can kind of close the door on the day, take a break detached from work to the extent that's possible. Uh. There are also things at the end of the day as as mood boosters. One of the you know, it's it's really remarkable the research I'm doing something good for

somebody else boosts our moods. It ends up being doing something good for someone else can be a profoundly selfish act in terms of its benefit to us. So you know, maybe at the end of the day thank somebody you hadn't thank before. But again, it's really about being aware and being intentional, um and and these these small things

can make a big difference. Well, before we end here, I did want to ask you a little bit about the sinkers high and uh, the tips on sinking with other people, because I really like that that in your book, you can you talk a little bit about that, sure, you know, I also have a chapter on how groups synchronize in time, So whether they are people who are delivering lunches, whether they're rowers, whether they're choral singers, and um,

there is something about synchronizing with other people in time that makes us feel really, really good. There's some good evidence on rowers High that that when we synchronize with other people, actually are pain thresholds increase, our immune response improves at a physiological level, we do better. There's some incredible effects to our mood and even to our propensity to do good. Deeds afterwards. So it's really quite fascinating.

I don't have a great explanation for it. I just noted the phenomenon and some of the research behind it. But there's something about synchronizing with other people in time, like choral singing that makes us feel really, really good that could be somehow evolutionarily programmed to feel good because

it has some kind of advantage to us. That's really interesting. Well, as we said at the top of the show, this is uh, it's interesting that's been We've gone this long without really thinking about the win of all these questions. As we've talked about before. You know, we've focused so much on the how and the why. But this has been so fascinating to learn these things and listeners, I hope you'll check out this new book When The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. Daniel Pink thanks so much for

joining us today. Thanks to you guys both for a great interview with a lot of fun. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works and wouldn't be possible without everal brilliant people who do the important things. We couldn't even begin to understand. Tristin McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland

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