Is a Funny Boss better for your Workplace? (And other Secrets from Office Culture!)

trip to one of these things? One time I did so Jason English and I heard about these at the Empire State Building and so we went to a nap room and got a nap pass and you kind of just lie down in the space age recliner that looks like an egg and and rest. It does look like can he. But for some reason, every time I see one of those, it makes me think of pac Man and just like eating these people. So there's something about it. It makes me a little hesitant to get in one

of those things. Yeah, but I kind of love that they are, these weird little pods and their soundproof and ergonomic, and they've got colors that come in to wake you up. You know. The one time I did it, not only did I feel rested, but I woke up refreshed. So I actually looked into them for our office and did you know they go for like thirteen grand a pop. It's a little out of our price range, but it did give me thinking about all the ways that the

workplace has changed over the years. I mean, there was a time not too long ago when sleeping on the job was a fireball offense. But now it's a part of employee wellness programs that everywhere from like Nike to Google to Ben and Jerry's. So with that kind of change in mind, I thought i'd be fun to take a tour through the history of office innovations, from surprising programs adopted in other countries to the rise and fall of the office cubicle. Let's dive in. Y Hey, their

podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and it's always I'm joined by my good friend Manges Ticketer on the other side of that soundproof glass. Look at him just polishing that thing. He's polishing this shiny new Employee of the Month blaque. That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. I didn't even know we hadn't employed in the month program. We we we actually don't mango.

He gave himself the employee them on the ward. It was kind of a power move, you know, he's he's a little bit into these power moves, and and I think this is because he's now handed over the producing duties. And of course Tristan is still going to be around, but these are now going to the wonderful lull Berlante. So to be fair, I think I'm at least partially to blame for this, because last week I told Tristan about this big push to ban Employee of the month programs.

Apparently some HR departments think that the selection criteria is too vague, and as a result of this, companies are left open to being accused of favoritism. So a lot of people are pushing to get rid of these things. Yeah, and I guess you can see how people might complain when they don't get it, And it kind of makes sense, you know. I I like how Tristan took it into

his own hands and out himself a plaque. But why why don't we stick to some of the more time tested workplace innovations, ones that have already proven themselves to be good ideas And one that I really like are these professional readers who work in Cuban cigar factories. Readers who work in Cuban cigar factories. Yeah, they're called electories, and their job is to sit on a raised platform inside a factory and read aloud to the people rolling

the cigars. There's usually some kind of p a system too, so it isn't just them yelling, but it's it's pretty great and it's a practice that's been going on in Cuban factories for over a hundred and fifty years now, and the electorias are are still they're just reading two people to this day. Why is this like it's some kind of enrichment or education program or what. Yeah, so this is back in eight six five there was a

man named Nicolas as Karate. I'm sure I'm pronouncing that terribly, but he was the leader of a political reform movement in Havana, and he thought lictors would help in two ways. First, they would help relieve the workers of their boredom. You know, cigar roll all day has to be kind of a tedious activity. But more importantly, it would help educate the workers and broaden their minds about local and global issues.

And the public actually loved the ideas. So just one year after the lectoria has arrived in the factories, the Cuban newspaper um Law Aurora report on the program, and this is where they wrote. Quote. Today, even in the heart of the workshops and during the hours most suited to manual labor, imaginations are busily questioning scientific and philosophical truth. They're talking and discussing, They're reading the works of good

modern authors and consulting with each other. In short, they are doing what they can to learn and to continue along the path of civilization. So it's kind of hard to say exactly what affects those readings had on the workers, but it is worth noting that when Cuba want its independence from Spain, it did so with the help of these cigar workers, and it isn't a stretch to think that many of them were inspired by the readings that

they heard at work. Yeah, not only that, And this is something I really don't think most people would know. But q but has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, right, Like, I think it sounds like nine point seven percent of the population, which you know, it makes sense for a country where factory workers listen to news and books all day long, I guess. But you know, I'm assuming they read books out loud, too, So so what kind of stuff do these electories read. Yeah,

it is a mix. The electoria's typically read in thirty minutes shifts, so one shift might cover the major news stories of the day and another might cover horoscopes or recipes. But you're totally right about the books. The real need of the programming is the dramatic reading of novels, which happens, and that's when the lector is really good to show off, like they act out multiple parts, they use different voices. Sometimes they provide sound effects like their own effects, and

the workers can't get enough of it. In fact, when they really like what they're hearing, they'll start tapping on the table with the knives they use for the cigar cutting and and it's basically their way to show their applause. And I love that they applaud with knives, but it doesn't It worries me a little bit and kind of makes me wonder what happens if they don't like a reading. Yeah, it could be dangerous, but actually that knife applause gets

used in different ways to write. The factories actually hold auditions for these lectoria's, where each candidate's pronunciation and their oratory flair is is scrutinized. I guess their sound effects as well. And and then the workers put the whole thing to a knife vote, and they also get a vote on which texta read. Can you guess what the top novel among these cigar rollers is? I mean, I have no idea what Harry Potter? Yeah, I mean, that's not a bad guess, but it's actually, uh, the Count

of Monte Cristo. Okay, also Jared Kushner's favorite book. But and some lectoria's have even read the book multiple times for the same group of workers, Like that's how popular it is. But the thing I really like is that Electora is basically the voice of the workers in their factory. The workers choose the Electora and they choose the words here she will read. But they also paid the electora's wages themselves, using contributions from their salaries, so in a

very real way, the electora's speaks for them. But being Electora can extend beyond the daily reading, so sometimes they wind up taking on other jobs, like they announced plays at the company baseball game, they'll perform the eulogy at at employee funerals, and they even act as a middleman for the workers speaking to management on their behalf. It's really a role as like a community spokesman or like almost like a union leader, as well as being a reader.

But I think that intimacy between that relationship is kind of why the practice still endures today, even with like TV, smartphones, even podcast I don't know if you've heard those, but these are gonna be big some day. But Lectura kind of has the workers back in a way that none of those mediums can do exactly. Well. You know, there's one thing I noticed when I was looking through the research that Gabe sent us this week, and is that the most effective office innovations tend to be the ones

that reinforced this feeling of humanity in the workplace. So when you think about these, like for a lot of us, this means you know, certain modern office staples like coffee breaks or casual Fridays, but there are also things that like homemade lunch delivery service that they have in Mumbai, which is just can you imagine how much fun that would be? Yeah, the double Wallas the dumble is actually your lunch or lunch container and the wall as the

person who delivers it. I mean, it's crazy how old this system actually is Apparently it's been in place for them like a hundred and thirty years and there's more than two hundred thousand people in the city that rely on it to deliver their lunch each day. But what's fascinating to me is that it's so efficient. So there were some people from Harvard that did a study on this, and it's actually estimated that for every six million meals

they handle, only one actually misses its destination. Like that is efficient, way better track record than any food delivery app that I can think of. Yeah, I mean my families from Bombay and I didn't know those numbers. But what's crazier to me is that the system is about as analog as you can get. So each double wall is responsible for finding his own customers, also for collecting the money from them, and sort of the way it used to work with milkman or paper boys. They're actually

the one doing the collections. So every day, each double Walla bikes to his customers homes one by one, picks up a freshly cooked meal from each one of them, and then he takes these meals to their drop off points, where they get grouped with a bunch of other meals and sent off to this nearby train station. So from there, the home cooked meals travel to a hub where they're sorted by location and then finally sent out by bike and delivered before lunchtime. And despite all of that, they

have that sort of track record. I mean, it's, I guess, a wonderful organized chaos from everything I've read about. If you know apprienently, it takes at least three months of training just to memorize the coding system they use for the different lunch boxes. I don't know if you've seen these, but it's got like a jumble of colors and letters and numbers. But you know, I can't get over how

much stress these guys must be under. Like not only do they have to move the lunch boxes from one train to another to get to the destinations, but if you've ever tried to just take a train without doing the lunch is an India that's its own chore. So you know, if a double walla gets confused and and this is his connection, that means a whole block where the customers might miss their lunches. It's insanity, all right.

So just to clarify on this though, like this system seems to be thriving despite the fact that they're probably cheaper and easier ways to eat lunch at work. And I'm curious, why do you think this is? I mean, for some people it's a matter of health or hygiene, like they don't want to eat anything that might get them sick, and getting your dubble from home is is a good way to ensure that doesn't happen. But more broadly, I think the people goes back to the human component, like,

this isn't food that's been prepared by a stranger. It was freshly cooked by a loved one for you, Which is why I think it's such an enduring innovation. All right, Well, now that we've looked at a few workplace trends from abroad, I feel like we should circle back to the US offices and trying to get a sense for how it's evolved over the years. Sure, but before we do that,

let's take a quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and we're talking about office innovations that have changed the way we work, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. Is it still an innovation if it actually makes things worse? I think so, Like think about think about the cubicle right, like it's it was super innovative when it came on the scene in the nineteen sixties, but plenty of office workers would argue that change was

not for the better. I mean, I guess that's true, but you kind of have to look at the whole history. I do think they're a little bit misunderstood. Like cubicles, for all their faults, and of course there are many, they were still a step up from the office layout

of yesteryear. So just as an example of this, in the nineteenth century, American offices were these small, dingy places, pop bellied stove and a bunch of clerks just kind of piled on top of one another, and so it's this cramp, smokey, just not pleasant space ace and there was zero privacy. I know, when I think about that, I almost think of like Scrooge's office in the Christmas Carol. It was all exactly like that, Like that was true

to every single office. And I know you, Mango, so I know you're picturing Scrooges office in the Muppet version of the Christmas Carol, and you aren't far off. So by the twentieth century, office spaces had thankfully spread out a little bit, but soon they started to resemble factory floors. You know, I think of these bulky flat desks set up side by side, and so not only did this arrangement maximize space, but it also made it easy for supervisors to keep an eye on all of their employees.

So even though offices were bigger than they used to be, personal privacy in this workplace sort of setting it was, it was really nonexistent. It would, you know, It's kind of stay this way until the cubicle came along in the late nineteen sixties. Yeah, it's interesting, like we're so used to thinking of cubicles in negative terms, like they're blend or homogeneous, isolating, But that's probably because we pictured the alternative as every employe having their own office with

the door. But cubicle will start to look a lot more liberating when you remember that the status quo of the era was almost like a bullpen with everyone just working elbow to elbow. Yeah, that's exactly right, And you know, it's strange to think about the cubicles really were intended to bring a bit more humanity and individuality to the workplace, or at least that was the goal of Robert Probes, who was the inventor of the cubicle, and Probes was

the head of research at Herman Miller's furniture company. This was in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties, and it was during the course of his work that he got depressed about the state of the modern office. So he wrote about this. This was actually from nineteen sixty and he said, today's office is a waste land. It SAPs fatality, blocks talent, frustrates accomplishment. It is the daily

scene of unfulfilled intentions and failed efforts. Such a wonderful idea, I know you had some strong feelings there, He really did, and so it inspired him to get, you know, to work designing the ideal workspace. So he really did have very good in engines here, and using research he collected from design experts, Probes decided on this new, flexible, kind

of customizable approach, which he dubbed the action office. So it consisted of a desk, a space for making phone calls, a vertical filing system, and these three hinged partitions that could be rearranged as needed to accommodate solo work. Or in some cases collaborative work. And to be clear, though, the Action Office was not a cubicle like. The idea was to provide a mix of walls and desks of various heights so that each workers set up their space

to match their own needs. And you know, it's kind of a smart idea compared to what was out there. And Proest included these acoustical panels to help block out some of the sound of typing and other people's phone calls, and so he even included this adjustable desk so that people could stand while they worked, which you know, he thought it would actually help improve employee blood flow in the process. That's kind of amazing that he was that ahead of his time with the standing deess and and

the panels. And I also love the branding the Action Office. Like, the main problem was that nobody bought the Action Office. Designers praised it as ingenious, but for companies and the executives, the system was just like too high concept to buy into.

And so Propes and his team went back to the drawing board and a year later they came out with the Action Office too, So, you know, totally different thing here, and it was cheaper and simpler, and unlike it's more open minded predecessor, this new design had a very stock model with a fixed desk and you know those humanizing frills like shelves and better site lines that had previously been available as options, but you know, most companies didn't spend on them, and as a result, Prop's vision of

this sprawling, productive workspace gave way to his fenced in office space that we really think of now when we think of cubicles. When you talk about it that way, it's almost like kind of what happened with the mall inventor, Like who wanted to create those town squares and then it ended up being just this commercial, like like pure commerce place. Yeah, I know, we talked about that not too long ago, and it's basically the same story with Probes.

So other furniture companies started making their own no frills cubicles and offices became these more crowded and impersonal spaces more than they had even before. And just like Ruin with his shopping malls, Probes had to stand by and watches. His invention became this new model for that very corporate sameness that he'd been trying to get rid of. And in fact, I pulled this quote from him that shows how disappointed he was in the whole thing. He says,

not all organizations are intelligent and progressive. Lots are run by crass people. They make little bitty cubicles and stuff people in them. Barren, rat hole places, monolithic insanity. I don't want to read this guy's quotes. Just over and I've got more rat whole places. He has not mincing words,

very very descriptive. So so probes passed away in the year two ols and it makes you wonder what he would think of the return to the open office layout that we've really seen come about in the last twenty years or so. I mean, don't get me wrong about thirty of American employees still work in cubicles, and the industry makes a couple billion dollars in sales every year.

But open floor plans have become the new normal again, and that's thanks largely to the tech industry and the cubicle you know, could be on its way out at last. It is strange to see that pendulum, right, It just swings from one side to the other and back. But it's also weird that we can't find our way to the middle. Like, there's so many studies that show that

open offices actually decreased productivity. One study from the Cohen Brown Management Group found that office workers lose between three to five hours of productive time every day in an open office. And that's because they're constantly being interrupted in some way by the people around them. And the worst part is that those interruptions aren't even worth the bother

in most cases. Like, according to a professor of management at n y U, and her name is Ann lar Fiard, this is a quote, many studies show that people have shorter and more superficial conversations in open because they're self

conscious about being overheard. You know. It's interesting because I've always heard that the biggest benefit to an open office is that the employees, you know, they interact, they collaborate so much more than in a partitioned office, I guess, But but I think that benefit make it canceled out if the interactions are mostly hollow, right, Yeah, I think the real thing open office plans have going for them is that they're way cheaper than going to cubicle route.

You can get by with three times less office space if you just use an open floor plan and you don't have to worry about fitting in a bunch of big, boxy cubes. All right, So open offices are less expensive and they can make it seem like your company is really shaking things up, I guess. But you know, on their own, they aren't enough to make workers anymore creative or more productive. So so what kind of innovation would

actually do that? I mean, there's got to be something, right. Yeah, I've got a few fun options that we can run through. But let's take another quick break. Welcome back to part time Genius. All right, Mango, you promised this. You're going to give us some picks for the best ways to boost productivity at work, and you can't say nappods again.

You've got to come up with something. Well, I've got something much better in mind, and it is cheaper, because, according to recent studies, one way to improve your job performance is just by making your coworkers laugh. That actually makes me think of like bosses starting to do impressions like they're Michael Scott in the office or something like that, and I'm curious, like whose performance does it actually help the joke teller or the person laughing. So that's a

really great part about this. It affects both parties, and for the person making the jokes, the benefit is a boosting social status. In two thousands, sixteen, researchers at the Harvard Business School concluded that when an employee makes a coworkers laugh, that person is quote perceived as more competent, more confident, and higher in status. That's just some revolutionary research there. And so what about for the people laughing, They actually get something good out of it as well.

They get stress relief, entertainment, and a stronger sense of engagement and collaboration. I mean, this is all studies backed. And then there's the physical changes like for example, laughing increases your intake of oxygen and that turned up to the amount of endorphins that your brain releases. Plus laughter can stimulate circulation and relax your muscles, so it's great

for relieving physical stress, all right. So, just to play Devil's advocate on this for for for a second, have there been any studies on whether laughing actually improved productivity because stress relief, endorphins connecting with your coworkers, and it makes sense that it would make net positive results, I guess, but I'm just wondering if researchers have actually been able

to prove this. Yeah, I mean that's fair. I think it's a little tricky just because every company is going to have its own different measures of productivity, so it's not like you'll be able to prove the fact of laughter across the board or anything. But uh, you know, I I did read about one study that came out of the University of Bristol a few years back where the researchers tried to determine if there really was a

link between happiness and productivity. And what they did was they gathered a bunch of volunteers and split them into two groups, and the first group watched a funny video clip that was meant to make them laugh, and the second group didn't watch anything. And then the members in both groups were given a set of addition problems and charged with solving as many as they could within i

don't know, like ten minutes or something. So in this case, productivity was measured by the number of problems solved correctly, and as you're probably guessing, you know, the result was the employees who laughed at the clip were a full ten percent more productive than the employees who hadn't watched the clip, so it's not definitive, but there's still a good reason to think that laughter in the workplace is

kind of a win for everyone. I mean, it doesn't make sense when you think about in terms of headspace and how laughter can know of course, improve your mood. Yeah, because it's actually the same thing that happens with music. Like I'm thinking about all those studies you see about how listening to music when you work and actually put you in a better mood. You know. I was actually looking at that this week because I wasn't sure how

much truth there was to that claim. And personally, I'm some sometimes in one camp and sometimes in the other where I feel like music is like great in the background and I'm really humming along, and then sometimes I feel like it's so distracting. But I mean, I've read some of those studies that you mentioned as well, though. What was the verdict. Well, it turns out it kind

of depends on what you're listening to. So if you're listening to music that you enjoy at work, then you're likely to experience a mood boost of about nine of the time, or at least that's according to one expert that there was this music therapy professor in Miami name Teresa Lessie Yuck, And the reason for that boost is that when you listen to music you like, it activates the pleasure center in your brain, which of course feels good.

So by the same token, if you're listening to music you can't stand, then you probably won't get the same results, which makes sense. But now it feels like we're running into the same question you have with the laughter case, like does being in a good mood really make you a more productive worker or is that just something we

kind of take as a given. Well, like you said, I mean, there probably isn't one single study that could prove all of this, But according to Lessieu, there is evidence that people are more productive when they're in a positive mood. And as you put it, when you're in that mood state, you're better at problem solving and thinking creatively. You take in more options and don't narrow your focus.

And that kind of tracks because you know, your pleasure center isn't the only part of the brain that lights up when you listen to good music or when you laugh. The other area that gets stimulated is the specific neural pathway that runs through the limbic system all the way up to the orbital frontal cortex. And as I'm sure we all remember, I only remember because I'm looking at my notes here to be honest with you, that that's the part of the brain that deals with decision making.

So essentially, when that part of the brain is stimulated, the result is this spike in creativity and problem solving. And here's how you can tell that there's truth to this. So several companies are trying to cash in on these neurological ben fits by creating music that's specifically designed to improve your mood and productivity at work, and it's called streamlined music. It's pay special attention to the key and tempo of songs in order to maximize the effect they

have on an employee's limbic system. So the jury is still out on how well the system works, but the takeaway so far is that it really can improve the quote perceived focus, task persistence, precognition, and creative thinking of listeners. So if nothing else, at least we've got a good

excuse to listen to music in the office. Now, Yeah, I think it'll go over well if you just tell your boss your head banging and working on your Excel sheets, that you're just stimulating your limbic system, I guess, and I'm sure they won't have any follow up questions to that. So speak of being things awkward at work, there's one more unusual innovation we should mention for office workers, and

that's a roma therapy. I mean, it's funny because I've seen these office diffusers online, like you just squired a couple of drops of your favorite essential oil into this scent pad thing and then plug it into your US speed port. It is pretty weird, to be honest with you, I know, And initially it sounded like less a way to improve the workplace and more like a good way

to alienate your coworkers. I remember when the Internet was just starting and and and people were talking about what the future of the Internet would be, and people were saying that, you know, having sent through your computer to like enhance the roma of of a food article or whatever would be exciting. And then the response to immediately was that trolls would hack your system and send out fart bombs, and so that's sort of smell vision of

the internet hasn't come about. But this is a much safer way to make sure you're surrounded by good smells and and being more meditative about your work. I guess well, speaking of focus, how about we keep our eye on the prize, not not Tristan's employee the month prize, but the fact off prize. Sounds good. M all right, I'm gonna start with my favorite office perk of all time.

It's the sixty five ft tall indoor ferris wheel. It's permanently housed in the headquarters of Acuity Insurance in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and these lucky employees there get to write it basically whenever they want. And if this all sounds a little bit decadent, keep in mind that the rides primary purpose is to serve as a fund centerpiece for fundraising events for local charities, so in fact, it's even nicknamed the

Charity Wheel for that very reason. That's really sweet, but it also seems like a good way to sell insurance, like maybe you need some insurance before you hop on this giant old ferris wheel. Actually, Acuity has these other unusual perks going forward as well, including a forty five foot tall climbing wall of four hundred foot tall flagpole and a dress code that's described as jeens friendly. Yeah,

the last one is a real selling point. But you know, for me, probably the coolest park I came across is the maternity leave program for employees at a company called Vota Phone. They're a UK based telecommunications provider and a few years ago they noticed a troubling pattern in their workforce.

It seemed that a high number of female employees were leaving the company soon after returning from maturity leave, and in nearly two thirds of these cases, the women did so within a year of having their baby, so obviously not an ideal retention rate. Vota Phone decided to change their policy and attempt to combat the problem, and the result is one of the most compassionate maternity leave programs

in the world. So women who work at Vota Phone are now entitled at least sixteen weeks of fully paid maternity leave, and it's followed by thirty hour work weeks paid at full salary for six months after they returned to work. Actually, speaking of pregnancy, and I know that there's going to be an age gap and too who knows this fact and who thinks this is really weird? But actually getting pregnant used to be a fireable offense in the US, which is just sort of mind boggling.

It sounds made up, But until the late nineteen seventies, employers were permitted to fire women just because they were expecting, and the practice was considered like a cost cutting measure aimed at saving a company money on you know, maternity leave health benefits, and it was pretty pop or two so, according to the Department of Labor, during the mid nineteen sixties, only of first time mothers worked while pregnant, compared to a close to seventy today, And the crucial factor behind

that uptick was the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, which finally put an end to this firing practice, and that happened in nineteen seventy eight, the year before the two of us were born, thank you. Yeah, And obviously there's so much work to be done on that front to make it a truly level playing field. You know, this next one is something surprising that I kind of wish I hadn't

learned this week. So, you know, all those long running rumors that you hear around the office, but like the one about Tristan winning the pick leading contest at last year's Atlanta County Fair was that one that rumorable? I don't know if that one's true, but but if you do hear an office rumor, there's a good chance it is true. Or at least that's what researchers found at the Rochester Institute of Technology and the University of South Australia.

According to them, a workplace grapevine is like one big truth detector. Baseless gossa gets dropped fast because one person or another can usually debunk it. But if there's truth to a rumor, it tends to persist and all the embellishments and guesswork around it are gradually shaved away. So this is what one of the authors behind the study said about it. Quote. In a workplace setting, what we call a stable organizational grapevine, people are very good at

figuring out the truth. If you tell me something and I work closely with you, I know whether you're a credible source. But even if I'm not so sure, in workplace settings, it's easy to cross check information. So, in a weird way, the longer that a rumor is circulated among employees, like the pickle one about Tristan, the more accurate it is. You know, It's weird because it kind of feels like a reverse game of telephone, like the message actually gets clear from person to person, which is

not not what you would think would happen. But alright, well here's a quick one. The largest office building in the world is actually the Pentagon in Washington, d C. So even though it's only seven stories tall, the building's unique shape makes it super a along like giving it. I think it has a whopping three point seven million square feet of floor space, So that's three times the square footage of the Empire State Building and room enough

for more than twenty three thousand employees. That's crazy. So here's what I like. There's one Starbucks in the world that will never spell your name wrong on the order, the c I A Starbucks also known as Store Number one, and it's apparently the only store of the more than twenty th Starbucks that will never ask for your name, and that's because, thanks to CIA rules, it is not allowed. Well, so how did the baristas know what you ordered? I mean,

they're just that good. Like they have to go through intense training and background checks, and then when they finally get the job, they just quickly learned to pair drink orders with faces. I love that and it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I mean it does. But it also seems like the CIA is smart enough that people could make up fake names, right, Like my father in law just decided that his local Starbucks he'd only be known as wand so when he walks in, everyone greets

him as one like he's wanting to tars. But I guess not having to say your name is easier. That's pretty great, all right, Well, I think because of that, both the great fact and the story about your father in law, you've earned the trophy for today. So congratulations, thank you so much, and and that is all for today's Part Time Genius, but from Gabe Lowell, Will and me, thanks as always for listening, and I think we'll be back soon with another episode. Part Time Genius is a

production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.