Are We Doomed to Lose Curiosity As We Age?

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Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So.

Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot.

I guess you'd say, so.

Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out the same thing is true for babies. So this comes from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the babies were most likely to look away from images that were either very simple or very complex. So in between images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as a measure of what they're curious about.

You know, I would have thought that they would have been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know, I don't mean to offend babies.

Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp.

That's overwhelming.

So this way they can maximize their understanding the world around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole body of research showing that even very young infants take a systematic approach to exploring their environment.

So if you think about it.

That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes these knowledge gaps.

That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth.

There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're gonna be doing this today.

All of this sounds a lot like what we've been talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity.

That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in babies and children and adults, and you know when to ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even in your old age. Today we're taking a long view of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey,

I didn't know this was still in print.

Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia. But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to the letter l Oh yeah.

I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go find one and dig in. But I really don't know, like do people even know what encyclopedia is?

And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like for those of you too young to know the World Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia, but a lot heavier.

Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah, I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always, we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode, and it is day four of our week long series about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you, which means another chance to win a part time Genius Prize pack, and we are going to get that in

I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as I started getting into things like history and just the sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards, or like all the sports stuff that I might have been into at that age, how about you.

Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand and unlock the front door and run out into the front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen, get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah, like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled up its raining forks and then my mom copy.

I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison for anything you might have done for ingrats.

So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games. And if you remember some of the studies on adult curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious people are and also what they're curious about. And so

I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first question is going to be, what was the magic trick?

There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where the toy looked like it was floating in the air.

Okay, I can say I would be interested in these if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them?

You have a lot in common with a curious baby. But what's so cool about the study is that it tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old. And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers, starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them.

So does this mean that some people are just naturally more curious than others.

I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're just generally curious about the world around you, and then there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated

Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according to another study that looked at over six thousand kids entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school, and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to determine how curious each child was, and then after the kids started school, they looked at how well they did on math and various reading assignments and the results were

Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education.

Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity, because what do we really mean when we say that or what does it look like in real life? And so to answer those questions, we have to think about the place where most kids spend most of their time, and that is school. So I actually want to read you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote

I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't the biggest fan of school.

Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he really wanted to do was learn math at a higher level than he was being taught. So he got some books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different, and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid, but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity.

Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused, and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school, if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills, you're going to focus on those, and being curious can

Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution.

I've tried to structure my classes and being so open ended and having lots of different options so that I can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that I can justify when students can go off in different directions.

That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school, Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all the other goals of the class.

Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says.

The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting the right answer, because once you do that, your brain is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know, whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process of learning and how the information they encounter relates to other things they.

Know, and so just little things like instead of saying something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems, you could say, see if you can find all the answers and let me know when you're done. Or you can say, see if you can figure out how to solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish before everyone else is done, see if you can find a different way to solve them, and so really focusing on the process. And also this idea that once you know something, that's not the end.

I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more of a beginning than an end, right, And when I remember things I've been really curious about or times when I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you want to learn more, which is a very different idea than some of the stuff I had to study in school just to pass the test.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage students to think through problems on their own, or even

Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood, it is time to look ahead. And if you start reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find a lot of people saying that as we get older, we get less curious. But our question is is this really true? And since we're starting to get up there in age, this is a very important question for us. So we're going to figure out the answer right after

I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay, man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about their experience.

Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less curious as you get older. You like what you like, you do your.

Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point, there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn all the things that I want to learn how to do. So I do think I am very curious still, but I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having figured a lot out.

I think if any had become more curious because I guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so curious about all these things that have come into my life.

When I talk to people that are older than me, it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think people my age maybe like don't have the attention span or just don't care enough to ask me about myself, Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more. I don't know if it's the same as like being curious, but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more.

As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired.

I don't have the energy.

I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided that he wanted to learn a language in when he was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he wanted to write in that language.

Yeah, he had this.

Idea for a story and he thought it could only be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so he started getting a tutor for for the language.

And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about the tired part.

Is like when we when we get to the next stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy, Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it may be.

And then I'm.

Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like, but I'm tired.

So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn a language of scrubs rerun.

So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity?

Yeah? Okay, cool deal.

So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up by research and surveys. But the great thing about science, and perhaps the thing I love most about science is that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the

So when they would come in, they were often really curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are you testing? Can I learn the results of these things?

Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of

I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares?

I mean, I care?

Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama.

I'm glad you sent me up with that.

Yeah.

It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time, but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into old age. And the reason for this is probably similar to what you were saying about babies at the top

Yeah, and that makes sense.

But I guess one question I have is does curiosity have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So.

According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very big role in healthy aging.

There was a study that showed even like survive was greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival. So these are like really important things as we get older.

Would it be safe to say that listening to part time genius could help you with your curiosity as you get older.

I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information, learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop. It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know a little bit about something, you might be curious to know the things that you don't know. And so then when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes, now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to

And there you have it. We are not saying that listening to the show could help you live longer, but we're not not saying that.

We are definitely not saying that this podcast is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I just want to put that out there as the disclaimer.

I'm glad you did that. The point is, in the same way we think about staying active physically as we get older, it's really important to think about staying curious mentally.

Yeah, it's good advice, but you know, I want to go back to something that you said just a moment ago, that state curiosity didn't start that big increase until after middle age. And if trait curiosity is declining over time, that would mean that middle ages at the autumn of the barrel curiosity wise, right, that.

Does seem to be the case for a lot of people. We talked about this a little bit on Tuesday in the context of income. So people with very low incomes tend to score lower on curiosity scales, and that's likely because it's hard to have room for curiosity when you're in a survival mode. This obviously is a distinct problem from just being in your forties and fifties, but that does tend to be in age when you're stretched really thin.

And stop and no matter how many times I ask, I never get a helpful answer on that. But you know, it's like Einstein was saying, curiosity requires freedom, and the more responsibilities you have, the less freedom you have.

Right, So it may be inevitable that curiosity waxes and wanes over the course of our lives. It may also be times when we just don't have bandwidth for random rabbit holes and the ability to pursue answers to questions that you know aren't directly related to work or day to day stuff. But that doesn't mean you should give up on it, right, And anything we can do to activate our curious side, to remind ourselves that we're designed to be curious, will help us now and also in

Don't go anywhere, Welcome back to Part time Genius. So there's one big topic that's kind of been hanging over this whole episode as we talk about curiosity over our.

Lifespans, and that's technology, which.

You could argue has as much of an impact on kids as the schools do.

Yeah.

I mean for anyone who's raising kids, this is a constant question, right, like what is all this screen time doing to their brains? How much screen time is okay? You know, when you and I were growing up, if we had questions, we had to go look them up in the encyclopedia. We did have the internet, but it was so much slower, right, And so our kids have all the world's knowledge right there in their pockets. And it's a hard question. Is it good is it bad? I really don't know.

I mean, I guess the answer is it depends on how you're using it, not surprisingly, and you know it depends on what kind of technology you're talking about too. So technology allows us to make this show, allows us to share with people, and I don't know what we do without online access to all the scientific journals and

Yeah, that's true.

I hadn't actually thought about that, and I guess it's more like the endless scrolling on things like TikTok that isn't doing that much for us.

Yeah, that's definitely not so good.

And doctor Dru says the problem is that type of content is designed to suck us in and keep our brains stuck in that lower gear, which isn't conducive to curiosity.

It's a very low level cognitive demand in a lot of cases, So watching really short videos that are entertaining but don't really provide much information, that's using just enough of your cognitive resources that yet you don't have that kind of openness to being able to just think and wonder and observe. And the observation is really where that

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I know exactly what this feels like when your mind is occupied but not engaged enough to kick into action.

Yeah, now what happens if your mind isn't occupied at all? So Doctor Celeste Kidd, who we last heard from on Monday's episode, had a lot to say about the dangers of using AI as a substitute for actual thinking.

They're being some difficulty in resolving something we're curious about is actually a good thing that can lead to unexpected new questions. We don't necessarily want technology that gives us just a piece of information we want right away. We really don't want technology that does that, but unreliably, I don't have a lot of optimism that things like check

Yikes.

I mean, that is a chilling thought that these things depleting kid's curiosity.

Yeah, I know.

And the Doctor Kids said that the reason AI tools are especially harmful for curiosity is that they're really good at generating responses that seem authoritative, like even if you're

Response that you just got, which you know it's important to do, especially with AI, because it often gets things wrong or it's reflecting certain biases without necessarily disclosing all of that.

Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this idea that curiosity is about the process, not just getting the right answer. So when producer Mary spoke to doctor Watley, she asked her, Okay, in a world of instant answers, how can we keep our desire for information from killing our curiosity.

When you have a question or you have something you want to know, just hold on to that for a minute, think about it, try to come up with some answers, and then go and look it up. There's some research showing that actually generating and answer yourself can increase feelings of curiosity rather than simply just being asked a question and not ask to generate an answer.

So with that in mind, here's today's listener activity. I know everybody's waiting on listener activity. So think of something you're curious about, and then do not google it. Instead, go for a walk or sit someplace quiet and let your mind wonder. Bring a pen and a paper and just jot down some ideas or a hypothesis that you think of, no matter how ridiculous they might seem. Give yourself an hour if you can, and then go back and google it.

So then leave a.

Comment on our Instagram or Blue Sky telling us what you were curious about and how this experiment went for you. The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth. Pick one common at random to win an official part Time Genius Prize pack. All the details and links are in the show notes and on our social media accounts.

You know, I'm actually excited to try this.

You are not eligible to win.

Still I'm going to do it.

That's the spirit, all right, Mango.

We've covered a lot of ground today, So why don't we head down to the rec center where we have some recommendations for people who want to stay curious at any age.

Let's do it.

So, if you're a parent, cognitive scientist Elizabeth Bonowitz recommends shifting your mindset from how can I make my kid more curious? To how can I create more opportunities for my kid to be curious. So, in addition to generating predictions and identifying knowledge gaps, which we talked about earlier in the episode, of Course, Bonowitz says it's important for

That's interesting. Watching TV is not usually a great opportunity for kids to be curious. In fact, it often takes the place of what scientists call exploratory activities like playing, and a study of over five thousand children did find that higher TV time led to lower curiosity scores in kindergarteners. However, the study also found that curiosity scores were higher when parents and guardians watched TV with their kids and also

And as for adults, in addition to making time in our busy lives for curiosity, we should be sure to eat plenty of produce and fish. So twenty twenty one study of adults in Japan found the higher consumption of fish, vet getables, and fruits was linked to higher curiosity scores. Now, this is somewhat limited because the average Japanese diet is higher and fish and vegetables than the average Western diet to begin with, so it's not clear on how global

And finally, for all of us, be mindful of how you're using technology. As tempting as it is, try not to spend hours scrolling mindlessly. It keeps your brain busy, but not active enough to really experience curiosity, and don't get so caught up in getting quick answers that you lose sight of the questions you're asking and the questions those questions might lead to. In fact, you could even take some inspiration from Dylan and break out the old World book Encyclopedia.

It's right.

Probably have to go into your attic or something like that to find it, or go to the local library, I'm guessing exactly.

And while you're at the library, maybe you'll discover another book that looks interesting. And you know how this works. Well, that is a perfect note to end on. Don't forget to tune in tomorrow and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky at Part Time Genius we can keep up with our listener activities and giveaways this week. Thanks to Metra Bunshahi for collecting field tape, and to Jamie Cheru, Mary Wattley, and Celeste Kid for speaking with