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Guess what Mango? What's that Will?
So?
Did you know that the United States isn't the only country that shares a land border with Canada? Did you know this?
I did not know that this.
Border actually just came into existence in twenty twenty two, So I'm not going to judge you for not knowing this, but I did find this pretty interesting.
Well, I'm curious if it's Russia, Like I can't even imagine, like what country is border with it. But I feel like the only geography I really know comes from playing Carmen San Diego.
N'sa Yeah, I'm actually with you on that, So I started. I said do it rocapella the other day, and my kids had no idea what I was referring to from the the Great TV show of the nineties. But well, you wouldn't find this piece of land on most globes anyway, because we're talking about a very small barren rock in
the middle of the Nares Strait. It's the waterway between Canada and Greenland, which of course is a Danish territory, and in nineteen seventy three, Canada and Denmark established a border through the Nair Strait to separate their territories, but that boundary was drawn directly through the Hans Island, which is about three quarters of a square mile in side,
so really really small. Now, the countries couldn't agree on who should get the island, so they just decided to deal with the problem of this pesky rock at a later time.
And it took them what about like fifty years to deal.
With Yeah, yeah, and not without some drama along the way. So you go back to nineteen eighty four and Canadian troops set off to claim Hans Island. When they arrived, they planted a flag which Eddie Izzard once taught us that basically claims it like it's yours once you put the flag in, and left a bottle of Canadian in whiskey,
which I actually found pretty funny. So in response to this, Denmark's Minister of Greenland Affairs also went to Hans Island and he replaced the Canadian flag with a Danish one and left a bottle of schnapps from Copenhagen with a note that read welcome to Danish Island. And this launched what the press has dubbed the Whisky War.
So I remember learning about the Whiskey Rebellion in school. This seems much.
More good natured than that.
It does, at least a little more fun. So over the years, representatives of both countries went to Hans Island to put up flags and or leave bottles of alcohol, and so these expeditions were often strategic moves by politicians to get some positive press, you know, of course, during election seasons. And then in twenty twenty two, the two countries finally agreed to establish a border through the middle of the rock. Though technically Denmark made out a little
bit better, getting about sixty percent of Hans Island. But the story hamenes that, you know that those rascals. But the story does have a happy ending because the foreign ministers of Denmark and Canada ended the war in the most appropriate way. They of course exchanged bottles of alcohol.
Oh I love that, and I actually love that we're talking about national borders because they are so strange to me, like often they just seem like arbitrary lines on maps, or they actually have these like weird convoluted histories, so of course they lead to disagreements. But today We're going to tell you about nine of the world's strangest, most unusual border disputes, from a famous mountain that's in multiple countries to a survey accident that's still wreaking havoc amongst two US states.
Let's dive in.
Hey there, podcast listeners, welcome the part time genius. I'm Will Pearson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and over there in the booth wearing a brick patterned T shirt and sipping a Seattle's Best coffee. That's our Palin producer Dylan Thinggan Meg. I don't know about you, but I got this one right away. Clearly it's a reference to the now defunct Borders Bookstore, because today is all about Borders.
Oh.
I love watching Dylan salute these defunct retail stores, right it's.
Sort of his main thing.
Yeah, such a batter radio shack and Zar's and whatever. But great job, Dylan, So I know, like you, I loved Borders. It was such a great bookstore. Metal Floss obviously used to get great rack space there and they were so sweet ones. But did you know that Borders Bookstore isn't called that because these books take you on a journey. It was actually named for its founders, Tom and Lewis Borders.
Tom and Lewis Borders, sort of like Check and Daniel Circuit City, right, the founders of Circuit City exactly.
Speaking of which, let's get into our next disputed border. So fans of mountain climbing might be familiar with this place because the moment it was first submitted in seventeen eighty six is often called the birth of modern mountaineering. And I'm talking about the tallest mountain in Western Europe. It stands at fifteen thousand, seven hundred and seventy six
feet high. It is Mont Blanc in the Alps, but some folks know it by its Italian name Il Bianco, because it is right on the border of France and Italy, causing some issues over where exactly that boundary bisecxs of the mountain.
I mean, I could see that being tricky, mountains aren't exactly great for making straight lines.
Yeah, and you know, you see that problem in the Himalias with India and China and Timba and like all these other places. But in this case, the problem comes down to two conflicting treaties so after defeating the Savoy kings in seventeen ninety six, Napoleon Bonaparte signed the Carrasco Armistice, which gave him Savoy and nice including a nice, big
chunk of mont Blanc. Now it's no surprise the French preferred this treaty, But the Italians like to remind them that all of Napoleon's treaties have since been reversed by the Congress of Vienna in eighteen fourteen, which reorganized European politics in the wake of his downfall. And they cite this eighteen fifty eight agreement between France and Italy, which granted them a much more generous border.
And how serious is this dispute, Like on a scale of swapping bottles of booze on a rock to ten.
Maybe like a five, Like we're talking about an area that's less than half a square kilometer. Yet they've been trying and failing to resolve the disagreement since eighteen fifty eight, and things have gone a little tense in twenty fifteen when a local French mayor made moves to close a gate that led to the Gigante or Giant Glacier, which is on the Italian side of the mountain, and this limited access to one of Italy's points of pride, Fujo Torino.
So the French claimed it was a matter of protecting the environment and keeping climber safe, but Italian authorities got really angry. Another issue popped up in twenty nineteen when France implemented wildlife protection measures that included the area beneath this point. Again, this was considered an overstep of Italy's boundaries, and as of today, the dispute is still ongoing, so we kind of have to wait and see what happens.
You know, it's hard to think of France and Italy fighting when they actually could just be sitting down to exchange plates of their equally delicious cuisines.
Yeah, I love that idea.
And I would also like to attend that meeting for sure.
All right. Next up, we have the Machaia Seal Island. This is a fifteen acre island that's equidistant from the US and Canadian coast. Now specifically, it's about twelve miles from both Cutler, Maine and Nova Scotia's Grand Munan Island. Depending on who you ask, it belongs to the US or Canada.
And is there anything they're worth arguing over.
Well, it depends on how you feel about puffa mango. How do you feel about puffins? I am pro puffin. All right, Well, that's about all there is on this island in terms of inhabitants. But there's also a lighthouse which belongs to Canada, so the US refuses to recognize it.
So what happens that like Americans who happen to land on this island just kind of walk past the lighthouse and ignore it.
Right, Yeah, I mean, we don't talk about the lighthouse mango. But according to my research, it really is hard to justify claiming this place as American. So in sixteen twenty one, the charter that established Nova Scotia as a British colony, it specified that it would include land that quote is within six leagues of any part of the coast. Six leagues is about eighteen miles, so that would include Machia
Seal Island. But the American government prefers this seventeen eighty three Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War and granted them quote all islands within twenty leagues of any part of the shores of the United States. Now, the problem is that with this specific treaty, it excludes any islands belonging to Nova Scotia.
That is so crazy that all these treaties got ridden without checking to see if there are other treaties that might you know, like for that a conflict.
You got to check all your treaties, right.
Well, if you go by the treaty that came first, it's clear this island belongs to Canada. But I don't get it if there's not much except puffins, Like, why does the US even care about this area?
Well, first of all, don't devalue puffins. I just want to go ahead and say that on behalf of them. But also, the island sits in a region of water known as the Gray Zone, and whoever controls the island also controls that part of the ocean. So both US and Canadian workers fish for lobsters in those waters, and as climate change pushes lobsters further north, being able to fish there becomes more and more important.
Which makes sense. And is there any chance of this getting results soon?
Well, the conversation pops up from time to time, but it's an issue that just doesn't have a lot of political momentum. Of course, there's another question that comes up when you look at the history here, like was any part of the island re Britons to give? And in this case, it's believed that the Passamaquaddi nation was the first to use the island. But of course they're conspicuously absent from these conversations. And in fact, the name Machayas is a native word meaning bad little falls.
What a weird name for Alan, but I like it well. Our next dispute goes beyond islands. In fact, it's almost underwater, and I'm talking about the Minerva Atoll in the Pacific Ocean. So these are circular coral reefs. They rise barely a couple of feet out of the water, and they may be part of Tonga, which is about two hundred and sixty miles away, or Fiji, which is around four hundred and fifty miles away. Now, the two countries have been disputing about this.
Area for decades, all right, I feel like there has to be a lot more to this story. So why would either country want to claim a couple of partially submerged reefs.
Yeah, I have that same question, And the truth is there are a few reasons. So these atolls are located in the Southern Pacific, and it's in an area known for its deposits of valuable minerals. So this includes things like cobalt and copper, manganese, even nickel, so it is an area that could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars in mining licenses. There are also these cultural considerations, right, so like both Tongans and Fijians have been fishing in
the region for a very very long time. But we can actually trace the dispute back to a specific year. This goes back to nineteen seventy one and one man it was a wealthy real estate developer. His name is Michael Oliver. He was actually born in Lithuania but lived in Las Vegas at the time, and he had this idea to create a man made island on top of the northernmost reef and to turn it into his ideal
libertarian nation. Now, Oliver and a crew dumped massive quantities of sand onto the reef, and then they added a stone tower and planted a flag for their newly founded Republic of Minerva. And they even had some coins minted.
Just nuts because you know, just because you pile up some sand and meant some coins. That doesn't mean you have a nation, right or does it?
It is wild. Allegedly, Oliver expected to have thirty thousand settlers join him in his republic, which might have given him more credence, but as you might expect, the nations
near the reefs were not impressed by his scheme. In June of nineteen seventy two, the King of Tonga claimed a twelve mile area surrounding the reefs as traditional fishing grounds, and he sent one hundred troops to tear apart all of our structures, and then he had a band played the Tongan national anthem there so, and then soon the Intergovernmental South Pacific Forum, which includes heads of states from Fiji, Nauru, Western Samoa, also the Cook Islands, they issued this official
announcement and it recognized Tonga's historical association with these reefs, and you know that their government's continuing interest in the area sort of pre supposed all this stuff. But the wording was intentional in not recognized saying any official sovereignty over the reefs. So Oliver was thwarted. But you know, they left the question open. And when the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea went into effect in nineteen ninety four. It actually established exclusive economic zones extending
two hundred nautical miles from each nation's coastline. So authorities in Tonga believe that gives them a certain claim over the reefs. But under that treaty, Fiji and Tonga's economic zones overlap, which of course complicates matters.
So how has that dispute actually played out between Fiji and Tonga.
There have been a few incidents over the years, like one time Fijians tore down some navigational equipment that was put up by Tongans. In twenty fourteen, Tonga's land minister publicly suggested giving up the Minerva Reefs in exchange for Fiji's Lao Islands, which actually make up half of Fiji's land mass, so you know, they didn't really take the idea seriously. Both countries have filed complaints and counterclaims with international authorities, but as of right now, it seems like
there's no resolution in sight. But one thing that is not disputed the fact that we have to take a quick break, so we will be back with more weird border stories in just a minute.
Don't go anywhere. Welcome back to Part Time Genius.
If you enjoy the show, be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app, and for extra credit, leave us a nice rating and review. The last review we have is from Declan, who says, quote The Pirate One is my favorite. I've been listening to it for six months, as in read listening to it, which I love that
so much, Declan. If you write to our high geniuses at gmail dot com account and send me your address, I will draw you a picture of pirate or maybe just a parrot that belongs on a pirate's shoulder, and I'll you on a postcard.
That's pretty great, all right, Mango. So for our next fact, I've got a question for you. Have you ever wondered how people back in the day were able to calculate and mark state borders without any of the modern technology we have today.
I have definitely thought about this because I grew up in Delaware and in some of my friend's backyards, when you'd be out playing in the woods, you could actually walk into Pennsylvania. But we didn't know where that border was. Like. We just knew that if you wandered back a bit, you were actually over the line.
Oh wow. Well, borders, it turns out, can be pretty messy things like consider the Georgia Tennessee border. For instance, in seventeen ninety six, Congress officially set Tennessee's southern border at the thirty fifth parallel, and in eighteen eighteen, surveyors accidentally marked the boundary about a mile south of where it was supposed to be. And that's thanks to these
typo laden labels that they were consulting. Plus they were using equipment that was outdated even by eighteen eighteen standards. And in fact, to this day, Georgia and Tennessee officials both agree that that's what happened here. But they don't agree on is whether anything should actually be done about it.
That's really funny and it's amazing that they agree. But if it's just off by a mile, like, what is the big deal?
Well? Water, actually, so the main point of contention is Lake Lanier, which is in the northwest corner of Georgia but under Tennessee's jurisdiction. So the lake is fed by the Tennessee River and it provides drinking water. So Georgian's attempts to claim it usually happened during drought time. So obviously water rights are very serious business, but there have been some goofy moments along the way. So like in two thousand and eight, officials from Chattanooga snarkily sent Tennessee
water to Georgia's legislature. This was in reaction to their complaints, and Georgia responded by foe arresting the crew who delivered it. So the dispute resurfaced in twenty thirteen when Georgia lawmakers authorized their state attorney general to sue Tennessee for access to drinking water in the area. In response to that, Tennessee state Representative Jason Powell was quoted as saying, as far as I'm concerned, Georgia can keep its greedy hands and it's thirsty mounts away from our water.
Thirsty mouths.
That's right, some of those thirsty mounts. So it's a difficult problem to solve it as a state border dispute. The place for it is probably the Supreme Court, but the issue actually hasn't had enough traction to get there.
I love how like theatrical some of this stuff is right, like Tongo sending an army, like like Georgia fake arresting these people for sending water over like it's so ridiculous wild. It also seems like this recurring theme with these disputes, like people are upset, but you know, it gets stuck in this stasis, right, like it doesn't seem to move forward. Okay, Well, so our next border conundrum involves a kind of territory known as an enclave. So this is a sovereign territory
it's fully surrounded by in other countries. So if you think about the Vatican, that's actually a good example. It is its own sovereign state, but it's totally enclosed by Italy. And this kind of thing used to be way more common before the era of modern map making and nation states, but they're there's still plenty of them around the world. And there are even second order enclaves, And I'm curious, do you know what those are, just like lesser enclaves,
Like is there an enclave ranking system or something? There might be, but that's not what I'm talking about. So a second order enclave is an enclave within another enclave. And in the year twenty fifteen, the world's last third order enclave came to an end.
Well, and I do know what those are. Those are enclaves within an enclave, within an enclave, obviously.
Yeah, So I'm talking about this place called Dala Kagabari, and this was one point seven acres of Indian land and it was surrounded by this Bangladeshi village, which was surrounded by an Indian village which was all contained within the nation of Bangladesh. So Smithsonian Magazine actually referred to this as the Turduccan of border disputes, which is kind of amazing.
That is a pretty great term. So how on earth does something like this happen?
I mean, the history is really complicated, and often in a way that made many people's lives worse. It would obviously take hours to tell the whole story of India and Bangladesh and the conflicts around those borders, but suffice it to say, by twenty eleven, India and Bangladesh had over one hundred and sixty enclaves that they began the process of exchanging. Now, no one knows exactly how this all came to be. There are some incredible legends about this.
Some people blame generations of maharajas who were gambling land away or there is one theory about a drunk colonial brit who knocked ink onto a map, But the reality is that they're probably the result of the Mogul Empire's expansion attempts, right, and the locals suffered for it. So imagine if you were traveling to the next town over
and that actually meant you were crossing national borders. So because of this, people had trouble exercising basic human rights right, Like it was hard for people to get ideas, it was hard for them to get education. It was really really complicated. But trying to solve this dispute is also difficult.
So one of the many ramifications of this enclave exchange was the erasure of the world's only third order enclave, and this happened in twenty fifteen, India signing agreement that actually gave the entire area to Bong Thish.
That is wild, all right. Well, this next dispute is also real, but it has a fictional tie in. Now, if you're a fan of Game of Thrones, or at least the TV adaptation, you already know that the Dathracky Grasslands are a real place. It's a steep plateau that looms over this sixteen mile long inlet called Loch Foil. One side of Lockfoil belongs to Northern Ireland and the
other to the Republic of Ireland. Now, this boundary dates back to nineteen twenty two when Ireland was partitioned, so the south became the independent Republic of Ireland while the north remained part of the United Kingdom. Now, going from one end of the bay to the other meant that you're crossing this border. But the nineteen nineties brought significant change to the situation, like the creation of the European Single Market and the Good Friday Agreement Peace Accord, which
established a cross border body to regulate this area. So the border infrastructure was taken down and it was no longer totally clear where Northern Ireland ended and the Republic of Ireland began. But Britain still claimed the water up to the high tide mark, and this was a claim that was rejected by the Irish government. I Meanwhile, locals started crossing back and forth whenever they wanted.
Basically, that sounds a lot easier than having to bring your passport just across the lake, definitely, But there's just one big remaining issue, which is oyster farming because there's no clear sovereignty over the water, there's minimal regulation, so people have been getting away with unsustainable farming practices and it's gotten a lot worse in the past ten years or so. So in twenty fourteen, the area had two thousand local oyster trestles, which are the racks used for
oyster farming. By twenty twenty one, so just seven years later, there were more than sixty thousand of these two thousand to sixty thousand. Disputes over which you know, country controls the lock foil pop up repeatedly, and yet the problem remains unresolved, and this has caused a major impact on the local marine and even the avian life there. Okay, so this next one also involves a waterway, one that's very close to home for me because it is actually
in New York City. So, as my fellow New Yorkers know, the Harlem River separates the island of Manhattan from the Bronx on the mainland, right. But there is a catch, and that is the neighborhood of Marble Hill. It is this forty two acre enclave north of the Harlem River that is in the Bronx but technically it's still a part of Manhattan, and weirdly, for almost two decades it was an island unattached to any mainland. So basically, Marble Hill was originally a part of Manhattan, with spiden Devil
Creek which flowed around it. Then in eighteen ninety five, the Harlem Rivership Canal was constructed to make it easier for boats to navigate the water surrounding Manhattan. So due to the new canal and this already existing creek, Marble Hill became an island and it stayed that way until nineteen thirteen when the creek was filled in. Now that process physically attached to the Bronx, but geopolitically speaking, it remained part of the Borough of Manhattan.
So I'm curious, like, how do residents of the Marble Hill feel about this? Do they identify with Manhattan or more with the Bronx.
Yeah, it's a good question. So in twenty fourteen, Bronx Borough President Rubin Diaz told The New York Times quote, Marble Hill residents identify so much with the Bronx that they don't often realize they live in Manhattan until their summoned for jeury duty, but their Manhattanite status wasn't always a forgotten part of daily life. Things have actually gotten
a little contentious over Marble Hill in the past. One Bronx Borough President, James J. Lyons, actually tried to claim it in nineteen thirty nine.
And how exactly did he do that?
Oh? The normal way. So he and his chauffeur went to the highest point of Marble Hill and they planted the Bronx County flag there. Yeah, and they also declared, quote I hereby proclaimed this territory of Marble Hill to be part of my borrow.
Yeah, that is definitely how you would do it. And did this work?
No?
The New York Times reported that one witness thumbed his nose while a handful of others' bood lions, and the message was booed him they wanted to be part of Manhattan, and subsequent petition sent to the New York Governor reinforced that stance. So it has stayed part of Manhattan, only for future residents not to even realize where they lived.
Wow, that's another wild one.
All right.
We'll finish out for our ninth fact with an eight hundred square mile section of desert located between Egypt and Sudan. The desert is called beer to Will and its ambiguous status can be blamed on British colonialism. So basically, Egypt's territory once included all of Sudan, but the British decided to divide these two countries back in eighteen ninety nine. Three years later, they added an amendment after realizing the original border was inconsistent with the ethnic composition in the area.
So this amendment gave a chunk of the coastline along the Red Sea over to Sudan. Well, Egypt got beer to Will. Now the coast has these valuable minerals like gold, so the area is worth way more than a big plot of desert where nobody really wants to live. And so for that reason, the folks in Egypt said, no, we disagree with that nineteen oh two version of the border. We'll stick with the one that was drawn three years earlier,
thank you very much. So beer to Will is kind of collateral damage here, because if Egypt claimed it, they would be acknowledging the border they don't agree with, and if Sudan claimed it, they would be going against the border drawn in nineteen oh two that they actually prefer.
I mean, if I had a choice between gold and desert, I'd go for the gold, right.
I'm curious. I was going to ask you.
Yeah, you're saying this little section of desert really has no value.
I mean not much. It's basically just some dunes, some black rock, dry river beds. But you know, one complication is that by not claiming it, and Sudan are leaving this area open for random people to do so. So in twenty fourteen, a farmer from the US actually went all the way to Berta Will and planted a flag once again, a flag for what he deemed is I know, it's really amazing, but he deemed this his new territory,
the Kingdom of North Sudan. This was all an attempt to make his daughter a princess, but that's not really how things work, of course, like you have to have some reasonable standing to go around claiming land and getting recognized as a sovereign state, even if it's seemingly unclaimed land. Though this hasn't stopped others from trying, including an amateur radio enthusiast from Russia. This was in twenty fifteen, I think, and later a barrister from South London.
Oh, man, that is so fascinating. I feel like you and I need to like print up some flags. There's a lot of territory to claims.
For that fact, I.
Really think you deserve today's trophy.
I don't know, Mango, you had some good ones. I actually think you deserve today's trophy.
So you are saying we both claim it.
That's exactly what I'm saying here. It's a new dispute for the ages.
Great well.
Of course, you are welcome to my house with flags and bottles of boos whenever you want. But that is it for today's episode. If you have a question or comment, or if you want to suggest an idea for the show, you can always call our hotline. It is three oh two four oh five five nine two five. We love hearing your voicemails. You can also send us an email at high Geniuses at gmail dot com. That's Hi, Geniuses
at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram and Blue Sky, where we are at part time genius. This episode was written by our wonderful friend Meredith Danko. Meredith, you are the best. We'll be back next week. But in the meantime from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, and myself. Thank you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known for almost three decades now. That is insane to me. I'm the
utter co host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is Mary Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm going to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier, who I've also known for like a decade at this point, maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always ready to hit record and then mix the show after he does a great job. I also want to shout out the executive producers from iHeart my good pals Katrina and
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