Welcome to the park leader show where we are changing the landscape of leadership in parks and conservation. I'm your host Jody Mayberry, and back by popular demand, the semi regular guest cohost, the retired director of South Carolina State Parks, the current professor at Clemson University, and the best mustache in the outdoors, Phil Gaines. Welcome back, Phil. Hey. Hey. Good to be back, Jody. Good to see you, man.
It's been a while. It has been a while. And I'll tell you, Phil, I debated and deliberated on whether or not I should grow a mustache like yours, but my wife ended that discussion pretty quick. I hear you. I don't think my son has saw me without a mustache, but my daughter has never seen me without a mustache. So it's, I don't know what I'd do without it. I need it. But it's been so long since we've been here. This is a sign of of how long it's been. There's snow on the ground
in South Carolina. There is snow in the ground in the south in the deep south even on the ocean even on the coast next to the ocean, so which doesn't happen often. So maybe that's a sign that I've been away too long from Park Leaders Show podcast. So we'll do better in 2025. Well, someone asked me, are you ever gonna have Phil back on the show? Oh, it's been so long. And I said, I'll have Phil back on the show when South Carolina freezes over. There you go. So here we are.
Yes. It is Fresno. Here we are. Well, Phil place on Earth. Phil, Alaska Airlines, which is my airline of choice, has added a route from Seattle to Charleston. So we are Oh, wow. Very close to being connected now. Yeah, man. Well, we have to get you to South Carolina. Yes. We do. When there's no snow on the ground, we'll do us a we'll do us a show from here. That's right. We need to. We the only like, we've done episodes in Nevada. And did we
do one in Arkansas when we were together in Arkansas? We did one in Arkansas. We did one in Nevada. We've done a couple we've done a couple in Nevada. We did one at Lake Tahoe. Yeah. So we had to branch out. We did one at Zion. That's right. That's right. Well, it's time we should take the show on the road, do a tour, State to state, park to park, and involve our friends at at various parks. But here's what I wanted to get into, Phil. Not politics. We're not gonna get
political, but it is political season. And with that comes changes in administrations. With changes in administrations, quite often, many park systems have a change at the top. The director, if it's a political appointee, gets changed. And you survived some changes in governors, you with that great career you had. So, I wanted to just get your thoughts on what to expect, even if we're a frontline campground park ranger up to maybe right below a director? What can we
expect? How can we do well during a time of administration change? Yeah. So, you know, sometimes, as park rangers, when we're out in the out in the field and doing what we do on the front lines, we don't preoccupy ourself with what's going on in the political world. But the fact is, as we've I think
we've done an episode on this. The fact is is it is very political, and parks are part of the political system because they typically report to, you know, a governor or, you know, the president or or someone who's appointed by one of those 2. And even in local government, you know, you're what I found in some of my dealings with local governments, they sometimes seem more political than even state or federal agencies. But so how does that affect us as
park leaders? Because we're in that season now where a lot of states, we just had elections for for the governor, and we just had a presidential election. So, you know, my guess is is that in the in the federal system, we're we'll see a new secretary of the interior, and the secretary of interior will look at, you know, all of the things that report to the secretary of interior, including the National
Park Service director. So it'll be fun to watch to see what happens with the secretary of the interior or National Park Service director and and some of those things. And probably some of you are in the process now of experiencing changes with the governor's office. And just because I know a lot of state park directors and is still connected to that world, there's some state park directors who will be will be leaving or changing
because that's the way our systems work. So what does it mean for you, and how do you do this without getting caught up in the politics? So it it's the way I've looked at it is is kinda like anytime you have change in your work environment at home or anything is as people, you know, we we tend to ask probably three things. And one of those is, what does that change mean to me? Why is it happening? And what will it look like once we make this change? Call it what's driving
the change. So for our purpose, we're gonna talk about politics is driving the change. So and so you might be like me. And so when I talk about the governors that I served as I served lots of governors in my career, but I was I served as director for 3 different governors. And that's pretty unusual, and that's pretty good, but in the spirit of full disclosure. I'm from South Carolina, and we're really a one party state. So, you know, I I never change parties because it doesn't happen very
often. But what is surprising to most people is that even when you don't change parties, you change governors, and sometimes you change direction. And they wanna put their stamp or their seal of approval on all the people that they can appoint. So so with all that stuff, it's like, you know, how can you be prepared for what happens when you get a new part director or a new governor or a new administration that comes in that wants to kinda change direction? What can you do on the front lines
to be prepared for this shift? So I remember being in our central office in Columbia, South Carolina when we had a change of administration. I was not the part director at the time. I was working in part operations. And one of the few times in the last 50 years, probably, that we went from a republican administration to a democratic administration, and then we went back to republican administration. So I was in the office when the democratic governor got beat by republican
governor. And on the on the floor in our main office, the floor above us was the governor's office part of the governor's office staff that did ombudsman and, you know, constituent services and all that kind of stuff. So I remember walking up that hall the week after the governor changed and seeing literally boxes and boxes and boxes in the hallway. And I was naive, and I says, wonder what's going on up there. So I go back to
the office and I asked the part director at the time. I says, what's going up on the 3rd floor? What's going on on the 3rd floor? All these boxes in the hallway. And he said, they're moving out. And I said, where are they moving to? He said, no. No. Not the office, the people. Because we've had a change in in governors, and we're going from a democrat to a republican. So all these people who are hired because they had ties to a Democratic
administration, now there's a Republican. These folks will leave and they'll bring in a new set. And that was the first time it kinda really hit me of, like, wow. This is crazy. And so fast forward, the next time I I'm involved with a change of administration is from a republican administration to a republican administration. I'm not the director of state parks, but I'm involved in some of the leadership activities. New director comes in. He's
appointed by the governor. And she calls this team together and says and, usually, when you bring in someone, they're most of the time, they're not within your agency. They come from the outside. So they don't understand a lot about government and they don't certainly don't understand about your culture. But this is the one thing that has impacted me for the rest of my career is this new agency director says, I want
to know how y'all operate parks. And I watched the director of state parks and the assistant director of state parks try to articulate how we operated state parks. And they did all this verbally. And about halfway through that conversation, she lost interest. And she said, I wanna know how you operate State Parks. I wanna see your strategic plan. I wanna see your operational plans, your management plans. And at the time, we didn't have any of that. We had done a strategic plan, but it was
probably 15 years old. And their response was, we don't have a strategic plan. And her response was, without missing the beat, says, not a problem. I'll get you one. And then all of a sudden, it's like, uh-oh. We know how to operate parts, but we didn't have anything tangible to show other than, trust me, I know how to operate parks. Leave us alone. We've been doing this a long time. So I would tell everyone that rethink of are you prepared for
any change? And it's not just when the election happens every 4 years, but it also is like when you work on succession planning at all different levels of the organization. You gotta be ready for change and embrace change, and part of that is preparation. You have to create a plan or have a plan. And and if you don't have a plan, my advice is you get a plan before it's too late. And you be strategic
how you do that, and then you communicate that. And one of the things that we've talked about, Jody, is that so how do you communicate this? And as as the director or as a leader, you know, you gotta have this vision. And I'm looking over here at my poster. It says, see it big, keep it simple. So, you know, one of those philosophies is see it big, keep it simple so that everybody understands, even somebody off the
street. So look at your purpose, your mission, your enabling legislation, and build on it from there so that you survive when a new person comes in. And I'll give you this one other example, and I'd love to hear some of your thoughts of of how I'm thinking about this to be prepared for this. So we developed a strategic plan and I and I saw early on in my career, I said, we're gonna have a strategic plan.
We're gonna do it consistently and routinely so that not only the agency director knows what our direction is or if we get a new governor or if we get a new part director, but also that everybody who works in the field knows what our strategic plan is and what our vision is and and what our purpose is and and reinforce that. And you do that by first looking at your enabling legislation, your mission, your goals, your core values, and you build on it from there.
And then you can't be naive. Another eye opening event that I had when I was part director is that we had a particular policy that the new administration did not like. And and I remember being in the office saying that, you know, by policy, we don't we don't do that. And so they brought in the people who who were in charge of policies from HR to administration to me, and we pulled out the policy. And this person took the policy, and he says, I want
this policy changed. And he took the existing policy, and he threw it in the trash can and says, write me another one. So the lesson I learned from that was policies are are kind of fluid based on what the vision and the direction of an administration
is, and they are they are not law. So what you base what you do is is based on legal stuff, is based on your enabling legislation, and then you build culture, core values, goals from that so that it withstands policy fluctuations that will literally change from administration to administration. And I learned that day that policy was as good as the papers written on because they threw it in the trash can and says, make me another one that
says this. And, you know, we were you know, we're seeing that, you know, in in the recent weeks days since the inauguration of a new president and not getting into any politics of either side. But every president for the last 3 or 4 presidents, when they first come in, they do all these executive orders. And the president prior to that did executive orders. And now a new president is doing new executive orders. And it's kinda like those policy things. It's it's like, okay. That was the
old policy. Here's the new policy. So what does it mean for us? It means that reality change happens. You may get a new part director when you get a new governor. You may get a new agency director when you get a new governor. And they may not understand what we do in parks and why it's important. So the best thing you can do is be prepared. And that starts with your enabling legislation, your goals, your mission,
your core values, and your purpose. And you start building those things, and you write it down, and you put it in plans and tangible things that you can present these people so that they know that we are professional. And we know what we're supposed to be doing, and we're trying to do that. And then, you know, you get into the weeds of you gotta prepare for change and and those kind of things and clarifying roles and responsibilities.
But one of the things you gotta do is you gotta be ready to tell that person who's come in in a new administration what you do and why you do it and why that's important. And then y'all figure out what that means for this new administration, new goals. But it's it's a reality. No matter where you're at, it will impact you in some form or fashion. The higher up in the in the organization you get, the more it's gonna affect you. Do you remember going through any of
those changes back in your days? Only once during my time as a ranger did we have a change. We had a change of governor just like you, though, in your state. We're a one party state, so nothing changed there. But when our director, Rex Durr, who you may remember, when he decided it was time to retire and then Don Hock came in as director. And that was the only change I've been through. So it was mild in the sense that it's, well, one, we're not
political appointee. The commission is appointed by the director. I mean, the governor and then the director is appointed by the commission. So a change in commissioners does not change much because there's enough of them. It doesn't change much. But a new director can change. And I remember when you're out in the field, you just wonder, Okay, what Phil said, how will this impact me? That's your first thought. Your
second thought, how will this impact my park? And your third thought maybe is how does this impact the region from the region office standpoint? And that's probably the order of importance as well. If you're being honest, you care the most about what does this mean for me and then what does this mean for my park? And I feel it takes a while to trickle down. You just don't know what a change in administration is going
to change for you? How is it going to impact me? My daily work and I think really out in the field, Phil, it doesn't change things that much. You're still serving park visitors. You still have the same mission as a park ranger. Now break room talk might change. Region meetings might change. What you hear when you go to in service might change. But when you're the ranger working the campground,
not much really changes. I think you're impacted more by a change in park manager, assistant park manager than you are change in director. But it does create a lot of conversation in what does, what does this mean for me and what are the priorities for the new director? Because eventually, the priorities for a new director will trickle down to every park. It just might take a little while. Yeah.
And I think that's why it's so important to when you're to prepare for change at whatever level it is because of that experience I had early in my career when I was not a director. I really think it's important to have things written down so that everybody understands the direction of what you're doing, and it's very strategic. And that's how you build culture and build on those core values that we have as
part people. But, especially, if you get somebody from the outside who has no no clue of what what we're doing, It's a way to show them that we are professional. We know how to do this, and it engages frontline people to show that direction that our organization's going. So when they get asked a question at a county council meeting or in the grocery store or at the ball field of, you know, hey. You got a new director or you got a new agency
director or a a new governor, what does that mean for parks? That you can articulate that it's, you know, it means that we're still our core mission is this and our core values are this, and a lot of it is based on our enabling legislation. And as a as a leader, when you get up to those positions where you have to interact with those political people, it's good to be able to say that here's our
enabling legislation of why we do this. And so that we we're focused on what our role is in government. And a lot of times when you get someone beyond the part director, when you get somebody comes in, you know, they really don't understand government. And they want stuff to happen really fast and move really fast and don't understand those things that we love so much, like procurement
and HR rules. And and it's just so completely different from the private sector that you need to be able to have that conversation in a way that explains that government moves at this pace because it was designed to move at this pace. And that's always really hard to do. We get frustrated with it too. But it was designed to be this way. That's the way that it was. You know, that's why it's government. It was designed
to be this way. And it is difficult, and it is hard. So that's, you know, as much information documentation that you have that talks about what you're you're enabling legislation, mission, goals, core values, your strategic plan, it helps you to manage through these changing times that happen every 4 years. It's interesting to hear your side of it, Phil, from the director side, knowing what what to do as a director to show a new governor
that you're professional and you know what you're doing. And I think it goes the other way. If you're a park manager and there's a new director, you still want to be able to show here at my park. We've got a strategic plan. We know what we're doing. We've we've got processes, procedures. We're deliberate about hiring. We're deliberate about customer service. I think being able to show that shows how good you are and a change in administration will have less of an impact on
you. Because what I have seen when someone new comes in, if you can't explain what you do and why you do it, that's the first focus. Okay. Well, this area needs a plan. We need to look here. But if a director comes around and at your park, you're the park manager and you can give a tour and the park looks great and you can talk about the improvements you're making and the projects the rangers are working on and show a plan and talk about everyone on the staff.
Well, Phil, I think a director is gonna say, okay. Well, this park squared away. Let's move on to the next one. Yeah. And I think I've had this as not as a director, but as a park manager. And I bet some park managers have this have had this experience and park rangers have had this
experience. You ever been on a park and used to first time you've been to that park, whether you're a ranger that's moved to another park or if you've you've moved to a you're the new park manager somewhere or in the old park manager's there, And you have that time in between where you're learning about the park and they tell you. And you see something, you go, like, well, this is crazy. I wonder why they're doing this. This I'm
gonna fix this. And then 6 months later, you go, that's why they did that because you hadn't gone through a whole cycle of stuff like, wonder why that sign is there like that, or wonder why they do this process the way they do this process. That's crazy. We shouldn't do that. But if they got a good plan, you know why they do that. And then sometimes you go and you have that epiphany 6 months later and go like, that's why they do that because this is a real issue.
And everybody experiences that because you haven't gone through those cycles and of changes in a park and what you may think is really dumb that they do. 6 months from now or a year from now, you go, hey. That's why they did that. And then you can understand why they did it or even modify or or change it. But you go in to a new situation thinking, man, I'm gonna fix everything that's wrong, and it's gonna be great. And then you find out there's a reason why it's like this and it
doesn't move as fast as you want it to do. And it's that same concept at a different level when the new director comes in. And what really helps that transition, if you will, is that there's enough data, information, plans that has that person know that while it looks like this now, 6 months from now, when this season starts or when this phenomena happens, this is why we do it that way. And, and it and it makes sense, but you gotta prepare for that
kind of stuff. And, you gotta be ready because change is constant, and you gotta be able to adapt and adjust. And, you know, and I think the simplest thing is going back to that see it big, keep it simple, and also stay focused on those core values and that core mission that
we have. And, the people at the field level would always use to what why I was so adamant about doing strategic plans and and making sure everybody knew what that was at every level of the organization was if the new secretary came by and was asking questions about how we operate parks and I'm not there, I want those park folks to be able to say it the same way that I said it and to know the same things that I know.
Maybe at a different level or a different picture or a different vision where we're at, but they should still know the core values and the core basics and stuff. And, you know, some of our best management tools that we have in our toolbox is, is being authentic and anticipating change. While we don't like change as people, and even in parks, we don't like change. My experience is park people adapt to change as good as any discipline anywhere because we see
it all the time, and we just adapt to it. And part of the reason that we adapt to it is because it's in our culture that we make things happen. So you gotta be able to adapt and adjust. And being authentic is part of one of the tools that we use all the time. So you you take that authenticity and mix it in with being strategic. And I think every 4 years, you're prepared for
whatever they bring you. Well, this has been a timely discussion, Phil, as we get new governors, as we get a new president, and there's gonna be new directors at the state level, at the national level. And just understanding what to expect, what's going to change. And let's wrap up, Phil, with you giving some advice for, let's say, an individual park. Not all of us get to be at the
the director level like you, Phil. So if we're at a park, manager, assistant manager out in the field, what can we do to thrive under a new administration for the park system? I think the way you thrive is be passionate about what you do and know your purpose and your why of why you do it. And and part of that is building that foundation to where you get it to every get it to everybody who's involved in your park. What is our mission of this park? What is our mission of our
park system? And then being passionate and authentic about how you do it. But you gotta be prepared. You know, the era of let's wing it, and when it come by, what do y'all do? You gotta be prepared to tell them why you do what you do and the impact that you have. You know? And and that that old cliche about having that elevator speech of, like, you know, you're walking to the hall and and from the elevator from the 3rd floor down to the 1st floor, if the agency director of
the governor says, so so what do you do at Big Bend State Park? You need to be able to you have your elevator speech ready. This is our mission at Big Bend, and this is why this is place is important, and this is the impact that we have on the people that we serve. And, so be prepared. Don't wait for someone to ask you a question you don't know. Be prepared to give them more answers
than they're anticipating. And and part of that is thinking strategic, being authentic, and following your north star. Alright, Phil. This has been great. You're the right person to have this discussion having been through administration changes before. And if you're going through one now, Phil and I hope that it works out well for you. But if you have questions, reach out. Phil and I are happy to reply to your email or bring it up here on the show. You can reach me at jodi@parkleaders.com.
And then if it's a message for Phil, I can relay it directly to him. Phil, it's been wonderful having you back. Hopefully, we'll we'll do this again. I I know the audience demands it. They want their their fill even even though no one can see your mustache, the sense I get is that people can still hear it when you talk. They know it's there. There you go. It's kept me out of trouble for a long time, so
I'm gonna keep it. Alright. Good to be with you, my friend. Thanks, Phil, and thank you for listening to the park leaders show.